FabSwingers.com forum: GBH for HIV

By *he_original_polo OP Woman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

I just caught something on the news this morning ,so may have missed some of the detail.... but....

some female Euro pop star has been found guilty of GBH for sleeping with a number of partners whilst knowing she was HIV positive. This wasn't in a UK court, but the question is still worth thinking about .... what charge should be made against a person who knowingly infects another with HIV?

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By *ig badMan
over a year ago

Up North :-)

"I just caught something on the news this morning ,so may have missed some of the detail.... but....

Attempted murder plain and simple if she know she was infected.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I just caught something on the news this morning ,so may have missed some of the detail.... but....

I can't remember what the techincal words used to charge people for knowingly having unprotected sex whilst knowingly being HIV positive. But I have heard of people being prosecuted successfully. Charged for GBH doesn't ring a bell though of the ones I read about

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By *ensualfire88Man
over a year ago

Edinburgh

That's why i INSISTED on comdoms with Beyonce.

And Britney.

And Barbara Dickson.

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By (user no longer on site)
Forum Mod
over a year ago

Its a bit more serious than GBH I would have thought

If it was me id want an attempted murder charge for having to live with my own life sentence

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

whatever happened to 'CAPITAL PUNISHMENT' dirty bas****s!

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

In the States the charge is 'Reckless Endangerment', at felony level it carries a sentence of 15-20 years.

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By *ig badMan
over a year ago

Up North :-)

"In the States the charge is 'Reckless Endangerment', at felony level it carries a sentence of 15-20 years."

sounds about right as its a pretty malicious act.

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By *iamondsmiles.Woman
over a year ago

little house on the praire

Theres a big bit on the internet about it shes been charged with grieviously bodily harm. Apparently after knowing she had hiv and sleeping with three different blokes unprotected she didnt mean to give them it i mean wtf

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It should be murder, as death will be the inevitable outcome

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By *he_original_polo OP Woman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

"It should be murder, as death will be the inevitable outcome"

We all die at some point.

How can they know at the time of the trial that the victims will die as a result of her actions? What if they die of something else before they develope full blown AIDS?

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By *uss PussWoman
over a year ago

east cheshire

"It should be murder, as death will be the inevitable outcome

We all die at some point.

How can they know at the time of the trial that the victims will die as a result of her actions? What if they die of something else before they develope full blown AIDS?"

Like throwing themselves under a bus because they have aids?

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By (user no longer on site)
Forum Mod
over a year ago

I know we all die at some point and if we live to a certain age we'll more than likely develop a life threatening disease anyway,thats just the way it goes in the natural scheme of things

Its not the way it should be if you are infected with a life changing and at the moment incurable disease that will change almost every aspect of your life by someone that knew who they were doing that

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

To prove the charge of murder under English law you first have to prove intent, that would prove impossible as regards medical infection.

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By *ngieandMrManCouple
over a year ago

hereford

While I would want to see such a person hang slowly for doing such a thing its not that simple in law as I guess you’d have to show intent to cause harm. Now that might sound daft but AIDS doesn’t automatically mean death. Neither is it guaranteed that you will contract it by having sex with a carrier.

Anyway, why should it just be restricted to AIDS? Surely if someone has sex with another person while knowing they have ‘any’ STD/I then that must constitute some sort of assault?

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By (user no longer on site)
Forum Mod
over a year ago

There was an extra "who" in my post at the end please feel free to ignore it

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By *aughtyHubbyMan
over a year ago

Sunderland

Did they all become infected? GBH hardly suits a death sentance disease in my opinion.

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By *he_original_polo OP Woman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

"I know we all die at some point and if we live to a certain age we'll more than likely develop a life threatening disease anyway,thats just the way it goes in the natural scheme of things

I appreciate the grave nature of the offence and the impact on lives... but that's the word isn't it... 'lives'... they are still alive so how could a person be charged with murder?

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By *uss PussWoman
over a year ago

east cheshire

If I poisoned you with a slow poison and you took ages to die....its still murder

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It should be murder, as death will be the inevitable outcome

We all die at some point.

How can they know at the time of the trial that the victims will die as a result of her actions? What if they die of something else before they develope full blown AIDS?"

good point as you can't actually die of AIDS. It's an attack on the defense system so you die of whatever illness it is that your body can't fight off

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By *ngieandMrManCouple
over a year ago

hereford

"If I poisoned you with a slow poison and you took ages to die....its still murder "

Yes not until you are dead

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

"If I poisoned you with a slow poison and you took ages to die....its still murder "

Not the same as infection in the eyes of the law (English Law), it's all down to proving intent.

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

there have been cases like this in both england and scotland.... I remember a case in edinburgh where a guy was charges with knowingly passing on HIV and Hep C....

i think in scotland it is called "reckless conduct"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If I poisoned you with a slow poison and you took ages to die....its still murder

Yes not until you are dead"

only if the person dies within a year and a day of an assault being carried out can it be called murder

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By *he_original_polo OP Woman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

"It should be murder, as death will be the inevitable outcome

We all die at some point.

How can they know at the time of the trial that the victims will die as a result of her actions? What if they die of something else before they develope full blown AIDS?

good point as you can't actually die of AIDS. It's an attack on the defense system so you die of whatever illness it is that your body can't fight off"

Like a d*unk driver.

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By *uss PussWoman
over a year ago

east cheshire

"If I poisoned you with a slow poison and you took ages to die....its still murder

Yes not until you are dead

only if the person dies within a year and a day of an assault being carried out can it be called murder"

Hmmmmmmm really?

***Fuss Puss hatches cunning plan***

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By *he_original_polo OP Woman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

What if someone was charged with murder for infecting someone and then the victim was later stabbed by a druggie/gang member/whoever and killed.... could the druggie/whoever be charged for murder if someone else had already been founf guilty of the murder of the victim?

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By *uss PussWoman
over a year ago

east cheshire

"What if someone was charged with murder for infecting someone and then the victim was later stabbed by a druggie/gang member/whoever and killed.... could the druggie/whoever be charged for murder if someone else had already been founf guilty of the murder of the victim?"

Now that hurt my head.

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By *ngieandMrManCouple
over a year ago

hereford

I would guess the leading question there once again would be ‘intent’ BUT in this country you can say you intend to kill someone but that isn’t enough to get you locked up, so I guess ‘intent’ needs to be qualified too.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

seems that the UK have the same charge, recklessly inflicting GBH (as Fabio says, other than in Scotland).

Wonder if it makes a difference if it was a casual relationship or long term?

Playing Devils Advocate, would a good defense argue that A N Other willingly got into bed with a stranger and knew the risks involved with casual sex?

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By *ngieandMrManCouple
over a year ago

hereford

"seems that the UK have the same charge, recklessly inflicting GBH (as Fabio says, other than in Scotland).

Wonder if it makes a difference if it was a casual relationship or long term?

Playing Devils Advocate, would a good defense argue that A N Other willingly got into bed with a stranger and knew the risks involved with casual sex?

Now that’s a VERY good point.

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

"only if the person dies within a year and a day of an assault being carried out can it be called murder"

Not so any longer, the law was changed removing the time limit to reflect advances in medicine. Unfortunately at the same time the definition of murder was changed thus allowing killers to claim that their assault was not meant to kill as used regularly by car thieves who mow down their victims in order to escape or d*unken feral teenagers who attack others for kicks!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Its a tough one, at the end of the day if you know you have HIV you know you are going to pass it on if you have unprotected sex and the end result of that is you have taken someones life

But as we keep being told on here having unprotected sex is a risk, and if your willing to take that risk you live with the consequences

you cant just go sleeping about and then blame everyone else if things go wrong, the guys have to take some of the responsability too for their actions

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

"Its a tough one, at the end of the day if you know you have HIV you know you are going to pass it on if you have unprotected sex and the end result of that is you have taken someones life

But as we keep being told on here having unprotected sex is a risk, and if your willing to take that risk you live with the consequences

you cant just go sleeping about and then blame everyone else if things go wrong, the guys have to take some of the responsability too for their actions"

I would tend to agree with most of what you say about taking responsibility for your actions.

However the point is that she knew she was infected and deliberately withheld this information, not once but four times! Also she had sex on multiple occasions with all four men thus showing that her conduct was not "spur of the moment" and therefore showing intent. In my view she should have faced at least one charge of "malicious wounding with intent".

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Its a tough one, at the end of the day if you know you have HIV you know you are going to pass it on if you have unprotected sex and the end result of that is you have taken someones life

But as we keep being told on here having unprotected sex is a risk, and if your willing to take that risk you live with the consequences

you cant just go sleeping about and then blame everyone else if things go wrong, the guys have to take some of the responsability too for their actions

I would tend to agree with most of what you say about taking responsibility for your actions.

Yep i agree with you

Shes taken peoples lifes in the long run and she should be punished for that, tho having a death sentance herself im not sure how much worse you can make her life

All im saying is the guys shes infected are not an innocent part to this, you take the risks you like with the consequences

I remember reading a post by someone on here on a condom thread and how you protect yourself and they say

Assum everyone has unprotected sex and you cant go wrong

i think that says it all

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"To prove the charge of murder under English law you first have to prove intent, that would prove impossible as regards medical infection."
,

if thats the law then the law is an ass, she knew she would infect anyone she had unprotected sex with, so its premeditated, in my view ,sue

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Remember the case is under seperate jurisdiction to the UK and therefore rules do differ. However above someone did mention it happening here and are quite right, I think the case was called Dica being the precedent under English/Welsh jurisdiction although I think it was appealed (not sure of outcome).

Establishing a charge of murder wouldn't ony be a problem in respect of the intent but also the fact that someone has to have died - never really looked into specifics of HIV/AIDS but I think one of the two can be treated which rules out any Murder charge.

One time or another all (or probably most) have had unprotected sex with somebody they thought they could trust, what a horrible consequence to wake up to

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Well you cant charge someone with murder unless theres a dead body and death is not inevitable. She is HIV positive, she doesnt have full blown AIDS. With medication people with HIV can live for absolute years and with the advances in medical science the drugs are getting more and more successful. HIV is treated as a chronic condition and not a terminal once, unless you develop AIDS and you become immuno-compromised.

I agree that its absolutely disgusting to have unprotected sex if you know you are HIV positive, but its not definite that everyone you sleep with will develop HIV, high risk yes, but not definite. That said I dont agree with it.

It would be the same risk as people on here going bareback completely unaware that they may have an infection, even a chronic infection like HIV.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I just caught something on the news this morning ,so may have missed some of the detail.... but....

Attempted murder plain and simple if she know she was infected. "

I have to agree with Big Bad. If she slept with these partners without disclosing the fact that she was HIV positive then I would say It was attempted murder, plain and simple. HIV Isn't necessarily lethal and can go in to remission but the very ract that It's potentially fatal would I should think carry charge of attempted murder. It's not the first time I case such as this has been tried before as if memory serves a man some years ago was charged with doing the exact same thing.

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By *he_original_polo OP Woman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

High cholesterol can lead to coronary heart disease.... should chip shop owners be charged with attempted murder?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

True but the fact remains that she knew she had HIV. We don't know the full details of the case and how long she had been sleeping with each partner and over what period of time.

She could have informed each and every one of them that she had been tested in the past. Even if the people were stupid enough to have had unprotected sex with her it doesn't diminish the fact that she had full knowledge of carrying the disease. If any one of us carries the disease I think It's our obligation to inform those who may consider having sexual intercourse with us that we have the disease, pure and simple.

At the very least I think she can be charged with attempted murder. Even if it turns out not to be terminal, it still potentially could have been.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Remember the case is under seperate jurisdiction to the UK and therefore rules do differ. However above someone did mention it happening here and are quite right, I think the case was called Dica being the precedent under English/Welsh jurisdiction although I think it was appealed (not sure of outcome).

One time or another all (or probably most) have had unprotected sex with somebody they thought they could trust, what a horrible consequence to wake up to

The guys she went with may well have had unprotected sex with someone who trusted them, the possiblities are awful to imagine ....

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By *he_original_polo OP Woman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

At the very least I think she can be charged with attempted murder. Even if it turns out not to be terminal, it still potentially could have been."

Even though the chippie example was slightly chip in cheek...... the fact is, many things 'could' potentially lead to death eventually - so where do you start and stop charging people for attempted murder?

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

"High cholesterol can lead to coronary heart disease.... should chip shop owners be charged with attempted murder?

Only if they 'batter' someone to the brink of death......

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By *he_original_polo OP Woman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

"High cholesterol can lead to coronary heart disease.... should chip shop owners be charged with attempted murder?

Only if they 'batter' someone to the brink of death......"

boom boom

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I agree with the above comments, its just because HIV is the most feared STI, but others are equally dangerous, Hepatitis B for instance is far more common that HIV, Ok theres treatment and injections but left untreated. You could potentially die from any STI if left untreated, its just that HIV is always classed as the biggie.

The only way to reduce HIV infection is education and the constant message of condoms. I feel sites like this one could do more to promote safe sex, how about banning any pics of sexual activity without wearing a condom. Ok a lot of people on here are couples and dont wear condoms but we dont know that when seeing an avatar, it would be nice to see a lot more condom encased cocks for a start

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

should get life sentance

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By *ngieandMrManCouple
over a year ago

hereford

“I have very sharp knives in my kitchen”… If I don’t inform you of that fact before you go into my kitchen and you hurt yourself on one of them should I be charged with attempted murder?

If you have sex with a person carrying HIV it doesn’t mean that you WILL contract it, you MIGHT contract it and it may or may not lead to your premature death.

Don’t get me wrong I’m not suggesting its ‘ok’ to knowingly put others at risk because it isn’t but as has been suggested, everyone must take responsibility for their own actions and sex with strangers and or multiple partners is risky.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

in this crazy country of ours if a guy raped an hiv positive woman i wouldn't be surprised if she was done for gbh. Then there would be the compo claim.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"in this crazy country of ours if a guy raped an hiv positive woman i wouldn't be surprised if she was done for gbh. Then there would be the compo claim."

Now I think your being a bit extreme

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By *asochrisMan
over a year ago

cardiff

"seems that the UK have the same charge, recklessly inflicting GBH (as Fabio says, other than in Scotland).

Wonder if it makes a difference if it was a casual relationship or long term?

Playing Devils Advocate, would a good defense argue that A N Other willingly got into bed with a stranger and knew the risks involved with casual sex?

"
good point

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"you cant just go sleeping about and then blame everyone else if things go wrong, the guys have to take some of the responsability too for their actions"

Spot on, that's one of the reasons it's an assault rather than attempted murder charge..the victim is culpable in contracting the infection in the first place.

It would be like lying in the middle of the road and claiming the d*unk driver that runs you over is entirely to blame for the injuries you suffer.

As others have said, murder requires a 'guilty mind', reckless behaviour doesn't necessarily constitute that.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I just caught something on the news this morning ,so may have missed some of the detail.... but....

Attempted murder plain and simple if she know she was infected.

It's not attempted murder unless her intention was to kill the men she slept with.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think it should be reckless endangerment and carry a sentence in accord with that crime, but if the victom subsequently dies then a new charge of manslaughter should apply and a new tariff set for that crime.

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By *amschwingerzCouple
over a year ago

West

"I just caught something on the news this morning ,so may have missed some of the detail.... but....

Should be charged with manslaughter..

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By *leasureDomeMan
over a year ago

all over the place

"To prove the charge of murder under English law you first have to prove intent, that would prove impossible as regards medical infection.,

if thats the law then the law is an ass, she knew she would infect anyone she had unprotected sex with, so its premeditated, in my view ,sue "

The complication is that wearing a condom does not guarantee you will not contract hiv ,it is 3 to 5 times safer depending on if you believe the tests from Europe or America .4000 in every 1 million condoms are allowed to be faulty without a product recall.

Then there is the issue of did you use a oral dam prior to oral sex ,it may well have not been contracted from penetration.

For now the only 100% safe sex is with yourself or locking in with a partner

and only having sex with each other ,having waited 3 months for a clear result to come through.

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By *ushroom7Man
over a year ago

Bradford

If all of the four men were in the habit of having unprotected sex with this woman, how many else have they done the same with. Who is to say that they caught the HIV from that particular woman? Very likely yes, certain no.

That said, what the woman did was disgraceful and unacceptable. One has to assume that had the four men known of her status, they would have "pulled out" of having that sex.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There is an important difference between HIV and AIDs. Typically the former leads to the latter if there is no medical intervention and then the patient will die from opportunistic infections that would otherwise have little effect on a healthy immune system.

Such is the effectiveness of anti-viral treatments if administered before the immune system becomes too degraded that HIV can be an entirely manageable chronic condition. These drugs work by reducing the 'viral load'- the quantity of the virus in the blood stream. This level can be reduced to so low a level (and therefore reducing its ability to compromise the immune system) that the virus cannot be detected on an ordinary blood test- although not a cure as the virus will migrate to other regions of the body such as the lymph nodes.

Whilst I digressed slightly, it is important to note that HIV isn't a death sentence any longer. The regimen of drugs required in order to keep it under control is synonymous with that amount required to compensate for the effect of a splenectomy.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"To prove the charge of murder under English law you first have to prove intent, that would prove impossible as regards medical infection."

also, doesn't death have to occur within a given period ? (a year and a day of the act being carried out)

or has that all changed since i did my 'o' levels ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

She should be charged with GBH. If it was that persons intent to infect that person to cause harm, then they should be charged with GBH with intent. If that person contracts AIDs due to the persons action and dies, then that offender is liable to be charged with manslaughter/murder, depends on the circumstances.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Anyway, why should it just be restricted to AIDS? Surely if someone has sex with another person while knowing they have ‘any’ STD/I then that must constitute some sort of assault?

Amen. I went out with a nurse who gave me crabs and she didn't know how to treat them. Sit in a bath of vinegar? Lock her up!

"Playing Devils Advocate, would a good defense argue that A N Other willingly got into bed with a stranger and knew the risks involved with casual sex?"

I don't think I've met a guy who hasn't had to be told 'condom.' I've even had some who said they knew they were clean, like whether I am or not is immaterial to them. Sheesh, it's like cyclists on the roads: it doesn't matter who's in the right when you're the one who's dead! Stop jumping red lights, FFS!

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By *innamon!Woman
over a year ago

no matter

What would be the deal in a Gay relationship where a few months after a * civil ceremony one discovers the partner is HIV+ and has been for 3 years prior to meeting..but never quite got round to telling the partner.they were together and not using condoms. In my opinion a real bad deal. fortunately the partner remains clear and they are now apart. there are some rotters and liars out there for sure . good job HIV meds are so good these days .

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