FabSwingers.com forum: Religion part 2

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

The other thread got filled up quick.

If religion was to drop of the face of the earth tomorrow do you think the world would be a better place?

Continue here.

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By *VineMan
over a year ago

The right place

I think it's been proved that the world would be no better.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

How can you say it's been proven to be no better when so many millions of people act every day purely for religious reasons?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"How can you say it's been proven to be no better when so many millions of people act every day purely for religious reasons? "
I didn't say it, it was from the other thread.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Because they'll find something else to be tribalistic about. Nations, skin colour etc.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"How can you say it's been proven to be no better when so many millions of people act every day purely for religious reasons? I didn't say it, it was from the other thread."

Lol sorry OP, wasn't aimed at you but the other chap who replied to the original post.

Fact is we will never know will we?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"How can you say it's been proven to be no better when so many millions of people act every day purely for religious reasons? I didn't say it, it was from the other thread.

Lol sorry OP, wasn't aimed at you but the other chap who replied to the original post.

Fact is we will never know will we?"
lol its ok and your right. I don't think we will never know.

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By *VineMan
over a year ago

The right place

Because every time a totalitarian non religious state emerges the same atrocities are carried out but under a different guise. Stalin's Russia, Pol Pott's Khmer Rouge etc. Hitler's Third Reich. Etc.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

""It has always struck me as profoundly ironic that if; hypothetically, the existence of a God or Gods could be proven, we would no longer have any need for religion.

Personally, I take the view (like Einstein) that religion is a childish, primitive way of understanding what is ultimately the actual way the universe works. I strongly suspect (as Einstein, Niels Bohr and Heisenburg did) that, as the laws of physics are fixed and immutable under normal conditions, that there is some kind of intelligence behind the way the universe works. Whether you want to call that 'God' (I see no other appropriate term for it), I don't know.

Einstein considered the profound feelings of awe and wonder that many physicists and other scientists get when considering the vastness of the universe and the incredible way in which it works to be the same as a religious person gets when contemplating God; it's just that the religious response is a more primitive, primal, childlike way of considering the actual truth about the universe. Einstein considered the scientific approach, whilst on the same lines, to be a more rational but at the same time more profound way of understanding what was to him essentially the same thing.

My own interpretation is that the ideas _xpressed about the universe by religion are not 'wrong' as such, they are just primitive. I look at religion to science (in particular the physical sciences) to be like alchemy ultimately became to chemistry: it wasn't that the basic ideas that alchemy was all about were wrong, it was just that the way alchemy investigated these phenomena lacked the empiricism and rational application chemistry later had, and, just in the same way chemistry took the discoveries that were actually made by alchemy and incorporated them into itself-chemistry 'swallowed' alchemy, likewise I think once we get to the bottom of things as to how the universe works science will 'swallow' religion.

Without getting ridiculously cosmic about things, I don't see the central tenets of religion in itself to be wrong or inherently bad-as I find the ideas of awe at the complexity and vastness of the universe and in particular the idea there is something behind the fixed laws of the universe to be right, based on the evidence. However, it is the tribalistic, irrational, and above all emotional response to the way some humans apply religion-and it goes just the same to other non-religious philosophies too-that is the problem. Religion in itself is not bad (merely primitive), it is only when it is tacked to ideas of nationalism, racism, prejudice, xenophobia, sectarianism and any form of hatred for fellow human beings that it becomes a bad thing. It is not religion that needs to be done away with, it is these attitudes.

As for atheism, personally I think that will just be one of those philosophies, like communism, that will be shown to be wrong. That said, I would like to point out that the idea there is a personal God, one who cares about what you do with your daily life, who cares about sin, who answers prayer and who cares about where you stick your genitals or what rituals you perform or what meat you eat on a given day-the God who interferes with the laws of physics rather than bring responsible for them-that God is impossible. We are not talking about some old dude sat on a cloud with a big beard. But likewise, I do not think we are alone and the universe is as meaningless as some would have us believe. The truth is, I suspect, as it all too often is, somewhere inbetween the two extremes-those of religion and atheism in this case.

A good post but I remain unconvinced (I appreciate your aim is not to necessarily convince me). Whether a primitive follower of religion or a genius at the level of Einstein, the moment individuals blame a 'God' is that moment of awe. The moment the reality is beyond their comprehension.

Einstein proved primitive religious thinking to be just that but, in my opinion, was no closer to understanding 'awe'.

In time a genius will come along and make Einstein seem primitive.

The question still remains, does awe = god? I am not convinced it does.

Just because we don't understand something doesn't mean we have to make up an 'intelligent designer'."

But Einstein did not consider 'God' as he concieved of it to have created the universe, he was of the opinion that 'God' or whatever you wish to call it *is* the universe.

He considered the Universe to be 'God' because he hit his limit of understanding.

His 'awe' moment was based on different evidence than that of a sun worshipper who sees a solar eclipse as clear evidence of their god, but I have no reason to believe his awe moment is any more valid in claiming any form of 'god'.

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By *ngel n tedCouple
over a year ago

maidstone

I think they should all have a fight, and the winner can be the recognised world religion, i'm rooting for buddha, cos i reckon he do kung fu n shit

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think they should all have a fight, and the winner can be the recognised world religion, i'm rooting for buddha, cos i reckon he do kung fu n shit

Maybe we should bring back Bill and Ted to do one more excellent adventure, what a movie that could be!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The other thread got filled up quick.

If religion was to drop of the face of the earth tomorrow do you think the world would be a better place?

Continue here."

Yes!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 09/12/14 15:40:12]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

there have been more wars faught over religion but if there were no religion people would find something else to fight over

religion isn't the reason for bad things it's an excuse bad people hide behind

humans can not coexist we will never live in peace

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think they should all have a fight, and the winner can be the recognised world religion, i'm rooting for buddha, cos i reckon he do kung fu n shit

Isn't that just what they've been doing for the last couple of millenia?!

I don't buy into the "religion causes war" thing - the vast majority of wars have been over money. Strip away the religious bullshit reasons and there's always wealth at the root, whether it's land, resources or "loot".

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

.....I wonder what our lord would say....hmmmmm

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

"The other thread got filled up quick.

If religion was to drop of the face of the earth tomorrow do you think the world would be a better place?

Continue here."

Religion is (and has always been) used to control the thinking and lives of masses of people. If religion disappeared tomorrow someone would invent an equivalent to enable those in power to manipulate those they control.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I have a question for the original OP actually-how would religion disappear exactly? If anything it shows a euro-centric and christian-centric assumption about religion. It's all very well if you have a religion like christianity that is about faith-that is, a person is considered a Christian if he or she believes in God and that is all that matters (apart from catholicism, but that's another conversation), but that is not the case with all religions.

Take for example, Islam and in particular Judaism. One is not a Jew or a Muslim because of what they believe, they are a Jew or Muslim because they fit the criteria under Islamic (Shariah) or Jewish (Talmudic) law. In the case of Islam, that is because one's father is a muslim or they convert.(which I woukd like to point out applies to myself, incidentally) With Judaism, it is if one's mother is jewish, or that person converts. That is why you have people like Stephen Fry, David Baddiel, Woody Allen, Sigmund Freud etc. who/were unbelievers in God but nonetheless are undeniably jewish.

In short, what is important in those religions is not what one believes but what one does. That is, it is salvation through good works, not salvation through faith (as is the case in Christianity).

In light of all that then, how would you get rid of Islam and Judaism exactly?

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By *ngel n tedCouple
over a year ago

maidstone

I say bring back the old gods, these new ones are shit n boring..........give us some lightning, fly down and have sex with our mums and fuckin release the kraken!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

In terms of time it's just a modern fandagled belief.

Things come and things go, if we make it another 500 years, I think they'll probably teach kids about our religious ways with the same sense of bewilderment we teach now how years ago they would drill holes in heads to relive evil spirit headaches..

That's if we make 500 years and all the religious nuts haven't sent us to the guru in the sky with some nuclear bomb!

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By *xpresMan
over a year ago

Elland

"The other thread got filled up quick.

If religion was to drop of the face of the earth tomorrow do you think the world would be a better place?

Continue here."

I'm an Atheist so yes

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The other thread got filled up quick.

If religion was to drop of the face of the earth tomorrow do you think the world would be a better place?

Continue here.

I'm an Atheist so yes "

what's that got to do with anything?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" how years ago they would drill holes in heads to relive evil spirit headaches..

You mean trepanning-relieving pressure on the brain (caused by haemmoraghes or clots) by drilling holes in the skull?

That thing that surgeons still totally do in 2014?

That also works?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Nobody's answered my question about Islam and Judaism yet...

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By *in with a GrinMan
over a year ago

Carlisle

"The other thread got filled up quick.

If religion was to drop of the face of the earth tomorrow do you think the world would be a better place?

Continue here."

It would be flowers and roses and we would all dance round the maypole in bliss even in November. OR it could be like 1950's CCCP where religion was banned and everybody informed on everyone else and millions disappeared. I am not sure which one would be the outcome but one would for sure.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" how years ago they would drill holes in heads to relive evil spirit headaches..

You mean trepanning-relieving pressure on the brain (caused by haemmoraghes or clots) by drilling holes in the skull?

That thing that surgeons still totally do in 2014?

That also works?"
.

Err no I meant when they would drill a hole in your head because you suffered migraines or putting radium on pottery, watch dials, children's toys or heroin for children's cough's (coincidentally manufactured by those wonderful people that gave us zyklon b) or reprogramming crazy people with electric shock treatment... You know all the crazy shit we do when we don't know the answer to stuff that scares or fascinates us.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

But we still do drill holes in peoples heads-admittedly not for headaches but the basic idea is still the same.

and we also still have electric shock treatment for people with severe depression or psychosis.

I'm with you on the radium fad though-that was just batshit insane.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Nobody's answered my question about Islam and Judaism yet..."
.

Every single human in the world is 99.99% genetically identical, in fact recently they found evidence to suggest we once got down to only 1000 mating pairs, and as a statistic your nearly guaranteed to be a 5th cousin to nearly anyone in the world.

I really can't see how one can be born Jewish or Islamic, your just born a homo-sapien, every other label is given to you by the society your born into.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yes; I get that, but being a 'jew' or 'muslim' is not a question of belief in those religions, it is a question of law. Law and ritual is of paramount importance in those religions, much more than faith or belief.

So, if one can totally disbelieve in God and still legitimately be considered Jewish, how then would Judaism disappear?

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By *ngieandMrManCouple
over a year ago

hereford

I seem to recall reading somewhere that 75% of the worlds population traces back to Genghis Khan who supported his drive for world domination by breeding with any women he didn't kill.

Anyway, there is no God... Stephen Hawking said so.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think it's just the religions that have been periodically picked upon by the stronger force that have the compulsion to call themselves a born Jew,Muslim,catholic.

It helps unite that particular tribe into that unit of tightness that helps in their self made proclamation that it's them against the world.

Somebody born "Jewish" but with no faith is more likely to stick up for/with their tribe even when they see their in the wrong.

It's why most Jewish people stick up for Israel regardless of whether they live there or have faith and rarely see their own sides failings, the indoctrination of the people is deeper than what you believe.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Its interesting that you should mention islam, judaism and catholicism as not only do those three religions have seperate legal codes that define them -respectively, shariah, talmudic and canon law-unlike other religions-they also have the provision in those laws that it is impossible for one to leave said religion once they join it-again, unlike other religions.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Anyway, there is no God... Stephen Hawking said so. "

Only he didn't.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Anyway, there is no God... Stephen Hawking said so.

Only he didn't."
.

I read the other day he believes the biggest danger to mankind is AI..

Him and that wheelchair are at war!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Anyway, there is no God... Stephen Hawking said so.

Only he didn't..

I read the other day he believes the biggest danger to mankind is AI.."

You gotta admit though; that was a tetrible film.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Its interesting that you should mention islam, judaism and catholicism as not only do those three religions have seperate legal codes that define them -respectively, shariah, talmudic and canon law-unlike other religions-they also have the provision in those laws that it is impossible for one to leave said religion once they join it-again, unlike other religions."
.

Yeah but that's just the equivalent of fab saying once you join them your fabbers for life and you can't join any other site, of course your free to join another site, but if you instill the fact your a fabber for life deep into your culture it will retain some tangible belief perse.

Most importantly for me is that people are free to practise religion or non religion, I'm not anti Muslim or anti Semite but I do dislike intensely the way those certain religions indoctrinate and control there flock to the point of repressing people.

I also dislike intensely the political influence both those religions seek to influence other states by. Judaism in particular!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Anyway, there is no God... Stephen Hawking said so.

Only he didn't..

I read the other day he believes the biggest danger to mankind is AI..

You gotta admit though; that was a tetrible film."
...Not a patch on A.L.F

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By *ngieandMrManCouple
over a year ago

hereford

"Anyway, there is no God... Stephen Hawking said so.

Only he didn't."

Correct, I don't think he actually put it that way, it was something like, 'there is no need of a god, everything is explained' regarding the coming into existence of the universe and everything since.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

As in revelations?

Yes. I'd accept my punishment and accept that I did in fact go against my beliefs and thank the Lord for taking away the pain and misery that humanity suffers. Religion is made bad by people and those who don't really have a true faith.

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By *ngieandMrManCouple
over a year ago

hereford

Getting back to the original question "If religion was to drop of the face of the earth tomorrow do you think the world would be a better place?"

You're saying that ALL religion evaporated in the same instant. Surely the only way something like that could happen would be if something of truly biblical proportions occurred? I'm guessing it would have to be no less than the one TRUE God. Given that we've just kicked science right out of play and pissed on the chips of all the different religions who have been claiming their religion is THE one and only...

The answer to your question in my opinion is, it ain't gonna be pretty!

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"I say bring back the old gods, these new ones are shit n boring..........give us some lightning, fly down and have sex with our mums and fuckin release the kraken!

I'm already released. LOL

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"The other thread got filled up quick.

If religion was to drop of the face of the earth tomorrow do you think the world would be a better place?

Continue here.

I'm an Atheist so yes "

As an atheist you should look at the evidence not just what you feel or believe. And the evidence does not support the statement.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Yes; I get that, but being a 'jew' or 'muslim' is not a question of belief in those religions, it is a question of law. Law and ritual is of paramount importance in those religions, much more than faith or belief.

So, if one can totally disbelieve in God and still legitimately be considered Jewish, how then would Judaism disappear? "

There is being Jewish as in being Christian and there is being Jewish as in being English. One is religion the other has little or nothing to do with religion.

As for religious law in Judaism or Islam, it's only valid while people believe in the religion that underpins them: while people have faith.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"The other thread got filled up quick.

If religion was to drop of the face of the earth tomorrow do you think the world would be a better place?

Continue here.

Not unlike the media today

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By *ngel_38Woman
over a year ago

Staffs

"No

there have been more wars faught over religion but if there were no religion people would find something else to fight over

religion isn't the reason for bad things it's an excuse bad people hide behind

humans can not coexist we will never live in peace"

Fought *

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By *ngel_38Woman
over a year ago

Staffs

"Anyway, there is no God... Stephen Hawking said so.

Only he didn't..

I read the other day he believes the biggest danger to mankind is AI..

You gotta admit though; that was a tetrible film."

WHAT ! I cried at that film

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The other thread got filled up quick.

If religion was to drop of the face of the earth tomorrow do you think the world would be a better place?

Continue here.

I'm an Atheist so yes

As an atheist you should look at the evidence not just what you feel or believe. And the evidence does not support the statement."

What I meant was; an atheist is not forced to be anti-religion.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

I think there a big difference between Canon Law, law about the governance of the (catholic) church and shariah or Talmudic law which govern how to run your life.

The catholic position on salvation is the same as all christian churches, that is, you are saved by God's grace and God's grace alone not by actions or obedience to law.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So, if one can totally disbelieve in God and still legitimately be considered Jewish, how then would Judaism disappear?

There is being Jewish as in being Christian and there is being Jewish as in being English. One is religion the other has little or nothing to do with religion.

As for religious law in Judaism or Islam, it's only valid while people believe in the religion that underpins them: while people have faith."

Not so; an particularly not as regards judaism.

The only criteria talmuldic law specifies for someone to be considered jewish is that either their mother is jewish, or they formally convert to judaism.

Faith and belief have nothing to do with it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think there a big difference between Canon Law, law about the governance of the (catholic) church and shariah or Talmudic law which govern how to run your life.

The catholic position on salvation is the same as all christian churches, that is, you are saved by God's grace and God's grace alone not by actions or obedience to law."

Yup. Precisely what makes them different to Judaism and Islam, where you attain salvation through your actions, by good works and by obeying the law.

A particular jew or muslim can choose to disregard the law, but all that makes them is a 'bad' jew or a 'bad' muslim.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Because they'll find something else to be tribalistic about. Nations, skin colour etc."

This.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think science is only going through it's first pass of getting to grips with the universe. We're looking around us, spotting patterns in everything, and formulating laws which we feel the universe abides by. The major over riding agenda is to try and describe the universe without needing a God. This agenda is needed because it stops us from shrugging our shoulders and saying "we don't know how this works it must have been a miracle".. and just giving up. But the agenda is also skewing all of the results. This is likely to be missed until we reach the end of this first phase of scientific exploration.

When we finally realise just how incredibly finely balanced and tuned the universe is, how perfectly entwined and complementary each of it's rules and laws are, how something came out of nothing, and how order emerged from chaos... we will finally be free to ask "why?" Why is there all this order? Why does science work? And science will finally turn it's attention on that question. It's only then that science will need to devise something of a God hypothesis and the second phase of science's exploration will begin; detailing everything they missed which ran contrary to their initial objective of proving there was no need for a God. That's when scientific evidence of the existence of God will emerge, not before then because their current agenda is too set against it.

So, by that calculation, I'd suggest a scientific discovery of God date at something like the 25th century...just in time for Buck Rogers

At least that's what I'd like to imagine

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

I think there a big difference between Canon Law, law about the governance of the (catholic) church and shariah or Talmudic law which govern how to run your life.

The catholic position on salvation is the same as all christian churches, that is, you are saved by God's grace and God's grace alone not by actions or obedience to law.

Yup. Precisely what makes them different to Judaism and Islam, where you attain salvation through your actions, by good works and by obeying the law.

A particular jew or muslim can choose to disregard the law, but all that makes them is a 'bad' jew or a 'bad' muslim."

The Christian position on being a Christian is similar; Once baptized a Christian you are always a Christian. You may be a good Christian, a bad Christian, a heretical Christian or even a schismatic Christian but you are still a Christian.

There are a few Christian sects that don't believe that but generally it is accepted belief through out. That's why all Christian churches baptise people as Christian and not as Catholic, C of E, Methodist etc.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The catholic position on salvation is the same as all christian churches, that is, you are saved by God's grace and God's grace alone not by actions or obedience to law."

if that is true then how come ex-communication has been and is a serious threat to Catholics?

bottom line the thread title is a moot point, wont happen and if we didn't have religion there is still money, resources, left handers v right handers humans are just like that.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"The catholic position on salvation is the same as all christian churches, that is, you are saved by God's grace and God's grace alone not by actions or obedience to law.

if that is true then how come ex-communication has been and is a serious threat to Catholics?

bottom line the thread title is a moot point, wont happen and if we didn't have religion there is still money, resources, left handers v right handers humans are just like that. "

It's not just the Catholic church that does ex-communication.

It's quite complicated but I'll try to put it simply.

The basic tenant of Christian faith is as I've said. Saved by grace alone.

However most churches, including the Catholic, Anglican, Methodists, Orthodox and Lutheran go on from there

You are saved by grace if you believe you are saved.

If you believe you are saved by God's Grace then you must believe in God.

If you believe in God and that you are saved then you must believe it is right to do God's will on earth.

It is God's will that 'this' church is his church and 'this' church does the will of God.

If you want to do the will of God you must obey his church

If you are not willing to do the will of God then you must either not believe in God or not believe you are saved by God.

If you are not saved by God then you are not part of the true community of the church.

If you are not part of the true community of the church then you are ex-communicated.

The full argument is much more in depth than this but it's basically that.

And, for the record, this is not my belief, just an explanation of the rational.

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

"The other thread got filled up quick.

If religion was to drop of the face of the earth tomorrow do you think the world would be a better place?

Continue here.

Not unlike the media today "

As I said if religion disappeared someone would invent an equivalent to enable those in power to manipulate those they control...

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"The other thread got filled up quick.

If religion was to drop of the face of the earth tomorrow do you think the world would be a better place?

Continue here.

Not unlike the media today

As I said if religion disappeared someone would invent an equivalent to enable those in power to manipulate those they control...

I was sort off agreeing with you about the control through religion, except that I think there is a bit more too religion than just an 'opium of masses' used to control people whereas I don't think that is the case for the current controlling method of the mass media.

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By *uke olovingmanMan
over a year ago

Gravesend

I love it when ladies find religion when you're fucking them

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So, if one can totally disbelieve in God and still legitimately be considered Jewish, how then would Judaism disappear? "

I think history has proven that it would not.

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

"The other thread got filled up quick.

If religion was to drop of the face of the earth tomorrow do you think the world would be a better place?

Continue here.

Not unlike the media today

As I said if religion disappeared someone would invent an equivalent to enable those in power to manipulate those they control...

I was just going one further and suggesting that most people in the West (and the rest of the world for that matter) sit down every night and give homage to the gods of the box in the corner and would never question the word of the the holy bearers of the news according to Fox delivered by the acolytes of News International and Sky!

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I went past the confession box in a church at holiday once in nice france and got a headache lol, not sure what that mean

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm not a religious guy.

I'm just a human.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The other thread got filled up quick.

If religion was to drop of the face of the earth tomorrow do you think the world would be a better place?

Continue here."

Without a doubt, the world would improve.

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