FabSwingers.com forum: Deism

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Anyone other deists on here?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yeah not really a big believe in Gods or afterlife but at least I'm with them in the science beliefs.

If I had to go with someone I'd probably throw my hat in with native American Indians... I kinda like there philosophy of life

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *eMontresMan
over a year ago

Halesowen

I tend to Bhudism, mainly because it's a non prophet philosophy

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *histler21Man
over a year ago

Ipswich

I worship at the Church of Lakeside.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Deism = hedging your bets. Can't really be bothered with any sort of belief that detracts from reality.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Deism = hedging your bets. Can't really be bothered with any sort of belief that detracts from reality."

Well; unless it turns out to be proven to be true.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *reelove1969Couple
over a year ago

bristol

religeon seems to breed hatred ..there are more religeous wars going on currently than political

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 07/12/14 22:58:38]

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ranny-CrumpetWoman
over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

deism is okay .... but oh oh those su ummmm er nights !

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"religeon seems to breed hatred ..there are more religeous wars going on currently than political"

Nobody mentioned religion and this thread isn't about religion either!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *carineMan
over a year ago

Armthorpe, Doncaster

Cello is an abbreviation for violoncello(not violincello). Some basses have a fifth string tuned to the B or C below the bottom E.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Cello is an abbreviation for violoncello(not violincello). Some basses have a fifth string tuned to the B or C below the bottom E."

Yep; I used to have a five string bass. You can have six string basses too (normally tuned F-B-E-A-D-G)

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *its_n_piecesCouple
over a year ago

what sort of deism err towards

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"what sort of deism err towards"

Eh?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *its_n_piecesCouple
over a year ago

"what sort of deism err towards

Eh?"

ha! ..... sorry ..... major typo there ..... what sort of deism do you err towards?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Myself...probably pandeism. Kind of similar to what Einstein and Heidegger believed.

I also think, like Einstein, that the universe is strictly deterministic.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Myself...probably pandeism. Kind of similar to what Einstein and Heidegger believed.

I also think, like Einstein, that the universe is strictly deterministic."

Schroedinger got that one wrong then.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If you their is a god he is probably a software engineer and we are all living in a simulation

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"If you their is a god he is probably a software engineer and we are all living in a simulation

I wouldn't be surprised.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We can't prove there isn't one, but I haven't seen enough to convince me there is.

I'm edging towards the 'no god' side of the pendulum and I have attempted to remain as open minded in my deliberation as possible.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"We can't prove there isn't one, but I haven't seen enough to convince me there is.

I'm edging towards the 'no god' side of the pendulum and I have attempted to remain as open minded in my deliberation as possible. "

So you're an agnostic who leans towards atheism?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If you their is a god he is probably a software engineer and we are all living in a simulation

I wouldn't be surprised.

I'm currently on a bonus level.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Theres a fantastic show on History Channel about the translation of the Bible. So much has been deleted of the years from the scriptures. Apparently in early versions of the Bible, there was a Mrs God!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If you their is a god he is probably a software engineer and we are all living in a simulation

I wouldn't be surprised.

I'm currently on a bonus level.

If it is a simulation does anyone know the cheat code so I can gain an inch or two

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

There does seem to be the (wrong) assumption that there is just religion on the one hand, and atheism on the other hand, with no centre ground.

Personally I find that rather annoying. I think as with all things, reality is most probably imbetween the two extremes.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

"There does seem to be the (wrong) assumption that there is just religion on the one hand, and atheism on the other hand, with no centre ground.

Personally I find that rather annoying. I think as with all things, reality is most probably imbetween the two extremes."

Your reality is only your perception. It might be different to mine.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"religeon seems to breed hatred ..there are more religeous wars going on currently than political"

umm. I think you'll find that most wars always have, and still do have, far more to do with politics than any religion. Religion is far more often used as the label for 'the other' than actually being the real cause. As in Muslims now and Catholics in the past. (Not really one of 'us', must be opposed)

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"We can't prove there isn't one, but I haven't seen enough to convince me there is.

I'm edging towards the 'no god' side of the pendulum and I have attempted to remain as open minded in my deliberation as possible. "

I know the OP said this thread is not about religions but I don't thing can talk about belief with out talking about religion as well.

As far as proof is concerned: You'll never find the proof your looking for. If there was proof, (as in empirical, scientific proof, either way then there would be no religion at all. All religions require faith; that's why they are often called faiths; If there was real proof then there would be no need for faith and no point to any of the religions at all. People who believe don't need proof and people who don't don't need it either.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"If you their is a god he is probably a software engineer and we are all living in a simulation

I wouldn't be surprised.

I'm currently on a bonus level.

If it is a simulation does anyone know the cheat code so I can gain an inch or two

I think a better cheat code would be filling your account with load of money. If you have that a few inches here or there won't put any lady of.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"There does seem to be the (wrong) assumption that there is just religion on the one hand, and atheism on the other hand, with no centre ground.

Personally I find that rather annoying. I think as with all things, reality is most probably imbetween the two extremes."

So this is about religion

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ensualtouch15Man
over a year ago

ashby de la zouch

Deist = creationist

Creator = creator paradox

No evidence for creator

Creator solves no question about existence yet would raise them

No data to suggest a creator is possible , much data to suggest it isn't plausible

Any creator concept has come from the fertile imagination of humans ,just as many scientific theory , to believe either without credible data would be beyond me

I'll stick to a theist

Without belief, in any of the human invented creator concepts

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ensualtouch15Man
over a year ago

ashby de la zouch

A theist

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If you their is a god he is probably a software engineer and we are all living in a simulation

I read something the other day about someone finding a formula within fundamental universal laws that looks remarkably like a piece of code written embedded within all internet browsers that is supposed to reduce errors. Why is that code there written into the fabric of the universe?

We're all doomed and will be deleted and our data will be written over countless times....

Anyhow on that uplifting thought for the day I'm off to work....

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ensualtouch15Man
over a year ago

ashby de la zouch

To my mind the computer simulation theory is just geek, creationism

Again it solves nothing , it's only purpose is as a lateral thinking aid , in respect it is hard to Prove this moment we're experiencing now is not a simulation . I don't know how but I'm of the opinion it's philosophically possible to articulate we are not ?

The software and computer need an external , evolved builder and materials .The simulation circle would have to end eventually which then would lead us to question the origins of the reality , back to square one x

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"To my mind the computer simulation theory is just geek, creationism

It is not creationism, as it is not based on belief, but a hypothesis that has to be confirmed by obervation. Until it is proved or disapproved there is no basis of fact to accept it.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

might give shinto a go this year as a new year resolution , that way will be able to get out of going to the midnight service with the mrs and her bloody mother

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ensualtouch15Man
over a year ago

ashby de la zouch

"To my mind the computer simulation theory is just geek, creationism

It is not creationism, as it is not based on belief, but a hypothesis that has to be confirmed by obervation. Until it is proved or disapproved there is no basis of fact to accept it."

Yes it's creationism x the hypothesis is that the universe was created by a deity

Beyond that if the Deists suggest the creature ,entity, energy ? they hypothesise exists is not a universal orchestrator then the deity becomes nothing more than an evolved extra terrestrial aka an alien

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

But if that turns out to be true-what then?

I'm not interested in emotional responses to this question ('this is just tantamount to x idea', etc) I'm just interested in the ultimate truth behind the way the universe works.

I don't think myself (based on the evidence) that it is a question of the universe being created by something, I am myself more along the lines of the universe itself being in some way conscious. That is, a very loose kind of pan-deism akin to what Heisenburg, Bohr and Einstein subscribed to. I'm not particularly interested in whether something created us or not, I'm more interested in whether it-be it the universe as some kind of immense quantum computer or what-exists. And there is no reason why science-and particularly the physical sciences-will not provide us with this answer.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"There does seem to be the (wrong) assumption that there is just religion on the one hand, and atheism on the other hand, with no centre ground.

Personally I find that rather annoying. I think as with all things, reality is most probably imbetween the two extremes.

So this is about religion "

It has nothing to do with religion, as what I put there clearly stated.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ensualtouch15Man
over a year ago

ashby de la zouch

"But if that turns out to be true-what then?

I'm not interested in emotional responses to this question ('this is just tantamount to x idea', etc) I'm just interested in the ultimate truth behind the way the universe works.

I have not seen or heard any data to suggest the matter in the universe is United in any kind of consciousness , I am perfectly able to understand that in infinite time matter that can move will in parts of an infinite universe become self aware

I have no idea where the concept of the entire universe being self aware come from other than imagination

I'm far more interested in the fact matter can interact in such a way we term it living without displaying or needing a self determining consciousness

And let's be very clear

Deists think the consciousness orchestrated the universe .IF it is suggested that the universe manifest a concious as it evolved and not existed from any theoretical start point , that consciousness is alien

It is plausible and statistically high that in the current small visible universe that some matter has evolved to be self aware

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"But if that turns out to be true-what then?

I'm not interested in emotional responses to this question ('this is just tantamount to x idea', etc) I'm just interested in the ultimate truth behind the way the universe works.

I have no idea where the concept of the entire universe being self aware come from other than imagination

I'm far more interested in the fact matter can interact in such a way we term it living without displaying or needing a self determining consciousness

And let's be very clear

It is plausible and statistically high that in the current small visible universe that some matter has evolved to be self aware"

I agree it's plausible but I don't know where you get the statistical high from. On current evidence, I'd say the likelihood of self awareness existing anywhere else in the universe is pretty low.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

I find taoist argument quite convincing.

All talk of alien intervention, computer simulation or universal consciousness is just kicking the question of creation further down the road. If it's aliens who or what created the aliens; if it's computer simulation whose running the program, who wrote the program and who or what created them; if it's universal consciousness then what created it, if it occurs naturally then it's not needed as, if consciousness can exist naturaly in the universe them it could also exist here on earth naturally without any creator.

To me there are only 2 reasonable possibilities.

1) The universe existence is a natural occurrence which, while not knowing all the answers yet, science will eventually be able to explain. This may be just one of many natural universes that just occur naturally as a result of some sort of physical reaction. There is no creator, no over all plan, things just happen.

2) There is a creator that has always existed and will always exist. The creator set in motion the creation of the universe and possibly has a plan or will.

Whilst finding option 1 the more logical I personally choose to believe option 2

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

But if you accept the principle of a deterministic universe (something increasingly accepted by physicists and notable absolutely accepted by Einstein), nothing 'just happens'.

This is what Einstein meant when he said 'God does not play dice'.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"But if you accept the principle of a deterministic universe (something increasingly accepted by physicists and notable absolutely accepted by Einstein), nothing 'just happens'.

This is what Einstein meant when he said 'God does not play dice'."

John Stewart Bell's theorem on quantum mechanics actually seems to prove Einstein wrong and that we actually live in a non deterministic universe where things only become what they are as they become observed.

But not really sure how scientifically deterministic or not universe makes any difference to either a completely natural universe or universe created by the will or action of a creator?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think the unfortunate truth is that if you only 'believe' in a God then you are unlikely to be able to bring anything of any meaning to the table. This is why the worlds 'faiths' are becoming increasingly redundant. These days we need more than belief and faith... we need proof.

Fortunately there is abundant proof that God exists and we can personally make contact with that God via various esoteric practices, such as meditation. By doing this a person moves beyond 'belief' and into 'knowledge'. Once we know God exists it then becomes a perplexing problem...why? how?

Although I don't like the software analogy, as it suggests the need for an external engineer, and I also agree with Taoist that it is impossible to create an infinite universe and so, therefore, a traditional model of a God that comes before all things and creates them is dubious, I do lean towards the idea that God is dreaming this universe into existence in the present tense and that I am living within that dream. This version does not require an external reality in any concrete sense. It is also entirely plausible that the dream is utterly concrete; that it sends energy into action and, through that, manifests a materiality which is, nonetheless, a dream.

As with all things God-related, it's utterly wonky and wonderfully M C Escher-like in it's seeming implausibility. But I love it that way

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *rtemisiaWoman
over a year ago

Norwich

As Piscine Patel asks in The Life of Pi, when it comes to human beings and their apparent need for faith of one kind or another, isn't it just a question of which story you prefer?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"I think the unfortunate truth is that if you only 'believe' in a God then you are unlikely to be able to bring anything of any meaning to the table. This is why the worlds 'faiths' are becoming increasingly redundant. These days we need more than belief and faith... we need proof.

As with all things God-related, it's utterly wonky and wonderfully M C Escher-like in it's seeming implausibility. But I love it that way

A very beautiful vision.

But I fundamentaly disagrea with the idea that proof is required for the existence of God. If we could prove the existence of God it would not be God but some sort of supper being or even a god but not God. A god that can be proved becomes nothing more than a powerful tyrant demanding our obedience and tribute, like former sovereigns. The whole concept of God, an all powerful, all knowing, ever present entity is only acceptable if it can not be proven but is purely a matter of faith. What would be the difference between a provable god and a superior alien tyrant (benign or otherwise).

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"A very beautiful vision.

I think you're getting things in a bit of a twist there imo

If God exists in any meaningful sense then we should be able to prove that, as we indeed can. If, however, your faith demands that God's existence cannot be proven in this way, perhaps that God lies outside of the universe rather than within it, then you need to come to terms with the fact that, by this definition, such a God does not exist. As such a God does not exist, we needn't concern ourselves with it at all.

Returning to the God which actually does exist and can be proven to exist, this God is not some lesser deity... it is nothing less than the entire universe, all of existence, in it's totality. Even if there is a further God beyond this, such a God does not exist for us, cannot be proven, cannot be connected with, and is therefore unworthy of our attention. For me Metaphysics is only valid when we can see some small shadow of it's truth played out upon our reality. It becomes invalid when we can find no evidence for it's possibility whatsoever. Thus the existence of God is different from that floating Teapot or the Spahetti Monster because there is a fingerprint of the former whilst there is absolutely no evidence of the latter.

God, the real one, does not require anything from us... there is no need to worship or throw ourselves to our knees before it will accept us. This is a classic misunderstanding from those who don't quite grasp the religious impulse. Instead it is we who fall so in love with God that we want to offer ourselves to God, it is we that want to worship God. God really doesn't mind either way... it's us who seek to show devotion... At least that's what I have come to understand

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *adgodCouple
over a year ago

Greensburg

"If you their is a god he is probably a software engineer and we are all living in a simulation

I wouldn't be surprised.

Neither would I.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"If you their is a god he is probably a software engineer and we are all living in a simulation

I wouldn't be surprised.

Neither would I. "

If it's a software simulation how come it doesn't keep crashing all time? LOL

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *adgodCouple
over a year ago

Greensburg

"If you their is a god he is probably a software engineer and we are all living in a simulation

I wouldn't be surprised.

Neither would I.

If it's a software simulation how come it doesn't keep crashing all time? LOL"

Lol. What makes you think you would know if it did?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If you their is a god he is probably a software engineer and we are all living in a simulation

I wouldn't be surprised.

Neither would I.

If it's a software simulation how come it doesn't keep crashing all time? LOL"

Maybe it does? Maybe that's what de ja vue is? A crash in the system and then it restarting so we do the same thing again?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *adgodCouple
over a year ago

Greensburg

Anytime a system crashes, one of the first things technicians do is try to restore it to it last proper working point. The system then operates from that point as if the crash never occurred. Im not advocating this theory as the true explanation of things and I agree with those who say all that would do is create the question of what made whatever created the program. Im just saying if it is a simulation, it is possible it does crash, and we would never know about it.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Why creationism? Why not existentialism? Things exist....that's it!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Anytime a system crashes, one of the first things technicians do is try to restore it to it last proper working point. The system then operates from that point as if the crash never occurred. Im not advocating this theory as the true explanation of things and I agree with those who say all that would do is create the question of what made whatever created the program. Im just saying if it is a simulation, it is possible it does crash, and we would never know about it. "

That's what I said, only slightly more words involved lol

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *adgodCouple
over a year ago

Greensburg

"Why creationism? Why not existentialism? Things exist....that's it!"

It is certainly a possibility.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If you their is a god he is probably a software engineer and we are all living in a simulation

I wouldn't be surprised.

Neither would I.

If it's a software simulation how come it doesn't keep crashing all time? LOL

Maybe it does? Maybe that's what de ja vue is? A crash in the system and then it restarting so we do the same thing again?"

I've got a feeling deva vu is something much more disturbing to our equillibrium. Having had experience of memory loss at a certain point in my life, I can confirm that the world as we experience it does not exist. Instead everything we think the world is is actually just the product of our minds making sense of a series of sensory inputs, putting that into some order and then serving it up to us. What I mean is that we are never living in the present. Instead we live about 1/2 a second in the past. That might not sound like much but the difference between us and what happened 1/2 a second ago is alot. Without memory nothing has any sequential order. Time just arrives to us as raw data. It is our brain which imposes upon it a sense of before and after... a sense of linearity. What I mean is that, if we travel back that 1/2 a second we would likely find a universe completely unlike our own, one in which there is no time, no space, just sensory data. Life, therefore, is the story our memory tells us.

Every once in a while that illusion breaks down and our memory relays events to us ahead of the sequence they're actually supposed to appear in... that's deja vu imo. So it turns out... if the world is an illusion then, at least in some part, we are the unwitting engineers of it. It's at this point that I've gotta admit... I'd rather God was controlling and manipulating my memory than it was just making all this stuff up by itself. The former places me in the hands of an agent I can completely trust... the latter leaves me lost and careening out of control

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There is no god. Period. Pernod is the proof of that.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *adgodCouple
over a year ago

Greensburg

"There is no god. Period. Pernod is the proof of that. "

Well....I guess we got all that squared away. On to the next big issue.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Which is----boobs. Proof there is a god. Oh. Bugger.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I doubt there would ever be proof that any god exists even if they did.

If a wacko said they saw or spoke to god, it's because they're a wacko.

If an intelligent, balanced and sane person said the same, they'd be a wacko.

If there were a god, looking at how we like to play god, I'm not sure they'd want to leave any clues lying around.

God is something of a word that isn't just a name or a label but a definition meaning one above all, or one to define all.

This planet is one which defines all, and since it can sustain life, it is one above all. The same can be said for this galaxy and maybe even this universe, so I'd rather look at it like god is the definition of existence and take it from there, rather than go around twatting people who won't conform to a belief system/regime.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I doubt there would ever be proof that any god exists even if they did.

If a wacko said they saw or spoke to god, it's because they're a wacko.

If an intelligent, balanced and sane person said the same, they'd be a wacko.

If there were a god, looking at how we like to play god, I'm not sure they'd want to leave any clues lying around.

God is something of a word that isn't just a name or a label but a definition meaning one above all, or one to define all.

I think you've latched onto one of the key meanings of the word 'God' i.e. it defines that thing which one holds above all other things. This is why we can say a person's God is money or some pop idol. Agreably there are a raft of other meanings for the word... but this use...to define that which we hold most dear; the axis upon which our lives pivot, is a crucially important aspect of what the word means.

For me, my God, that thing which I place above all others, is the source of life. To some people this means their ancestors, to others it means the Earth, to others it means the Sun, whilst to me and many others it means something more distant and cosmic. I think it is worthy of placing above all other loves in my life because, without it, not only would I not exist but neither would anyone I love, nor any of the things I love. I am therefore clearly so in debt to this source of life that it would be impossible for me to repay it in any way. Nonetheless I will struggle to offer some humble offering of thanks to it; to give myself utterly over to it

It is this act of giving that forms the basis of a life of service and of worship. Not that I'm particularly great at it, I'm not a monk for a good reason lol

... But I just wanted to try and convey the feeling in words, just in case it helped others understand it a bit more

Oh yes and btw... everyone has something they hold above all else, an axis upon which their life pivots. In this sense everyone has a God. Proof of the existence of this God is self abundant. We each have one, therefore this God quite obviously exists. This is one way in which we can state that the existence of God can be proved. The other proofs for the other uses of the word God are a little more complicated lol

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I believe religion was man made originally to instill fear into people to keep them in line

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I believe religion was man made originally to instill fear into people to keep them in line

This thread...isn't about religion!!

How...many times??

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I believe religion was man made originally to instill fear into people to keep them in line

This thread...isn't about religion!!

How...many times??

But deism means to believe in the existence of God so if it's not a thread about religion what the hell us it about and why did you title it deism

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *andACouple
over a year ago

glasgow

The issue with deism is, and I don't mean to be disrespectful here, that in a sense it's meaningless. The deist god is basically non-interventionist, unknowable, has no impact in our lives etc so in a sense it's not actually a million miles away from agnosticism or even atheism.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"The issue with deism is, and I don't mean to be disrespectful here, that in a sense it's meaningless. The deist god is basically non-interventionist, unknowable, has no impact in our lives etc so in a sense it's not actually a million miles away from agnosticism or even atheism."

All true.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I believe religion was man made originally to instill fear into people to keep them in line

This thread...isn't about religion!!

How...many times??

But deism means to believe in the existence of God so if it's not a thread about religion what the hell us it about and why did you title it deism

Because deism isn't a religion. It *is* a religious viewpoint-in the same way agnosticism or atheism is; but like atheism and agnosticism, it isn't a religion itself.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I can see how, if I wanted something from God, then your points would make sense. But I don't want anything so they have no bearing on my approach to this issue.

If a person gave birth to you without being aware of having done so (ok lol it's a bit of a far fetched scenario but bare with me

) ... would they still be your parent? Yes. Would they be someone worth thanking? Yes. Do you need anything from them? No. It is not meaningless to honour your parent, whether they are aware of having given birth to you or not

I do, however, agree that an unknowable God is not worth knowing lol... but, as I've said before, God imo is quite easily knowable via techniques such as meditation...it's just that most people don't bother trying

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I believe religion was man made originally to instill fear into people to keep them in line

This thread...isn't about religion!!

How...many times??

But deism means to believe in the existence of God so if it's not a thread about religion what the hell us it about and why did you title it deism

Because deism isn't a religion. It *is* a religious viewpoint-in the same way agnosticism or atheism is; but like atheism and agnosticism, it isn't a religion itself."

I would argue that the world is made up of a variety of 'Faiths'. These are human organisations given over to studying and living by certain dogmas and traditions. They are bound together by 'beliefs' that what is contained in their rituals and texts is true. These Faiths are largely superstitious, rather than religious, and are the cause of much trouble in the world. One of these troubles is that they've all muddied the meaning of the word 'Religion' and turned it into something that a large amount of people in the west would like to see the back of.

'Religion' is actually a subject, just like philosophy or chemistry. To get rid of it, you would need to burn nearly all the books in the world and implement thought control upon the masses; something I'm sure the Nazi's had wet dreams about. Religion is a way of looking at the universe and includes within it Deism; a belief in God which is independent of any of the various Faith's texts, perhaps via scientific proof instead.

You could argue that religion is a subset of philosophy, and perhaps it is. But, for me, religion is a step beyond philosophy. It's when you have a philosophical realisation about the nature of life that instills such a depth of awe in you that you feel compelled to act upon it. It is this that makes someone religious, not any membership to a particular group or club. Unfortunately, for most people, they do go on from this and join a Faith

Bad move. Instead we should stay free of dogma and carry on questioning and exploring the religion that we ourselves are discovering, and not suffocate it by superimposing another's cookie cutter Faith upon it.

That's the way I see it

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

That's what I said, only slightly more words involved lol"

Guys! I was joking. Ok.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Why creationism? Why not existentialism? Things exist....that's it!

It is certainly a possibility. "

As a scientific explanation it's even less satisfactory then the God argument.

The question then would be. Why does it all exist?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"I believe religion was man made originally to instill fear into people to keep them in line

And you might be right or you might be wrong but without any explanation of the rational that leafs you to that belief it adds little to the discussion.

That's not say it's not a valid belief or any less worthy than anything else said here. Just, without out explanation, it's blowing in the wind.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"I believe religion was man made originally to instill fear into people to keep them in line

This thread...isn't about religion!!

How...many times??

I think it is now TBH. Sorry!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I believe religion was man made originally to instill fear into people to keep them in line

This thread...isn't about religion!!

How...many times??

But deism means to believe in the existence of God so if it's not a thread about religion what the hell us it about and why did you title it deism

Is it worth pointing out that there are quite a few religions that are atheistic or agnostic too...Jainism has absolutely no notion of a God whatsoever and rejects the existence of one altogether, as do some strains of Hinduism, and Buddhism deems the whole question of the existence or non-existence of a God or Gods to be totally irrelevant.

Belief in a deity does not neccesarily = religion, and vice-versa.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Whats the difference between Deism Atheism?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Whats the difference between Deism Atheism?"

Atheism=disbelief in a God or Gods (from Greek 'a' meaning no, and 'theos' meaning 'God'). That's it essentially. You can believe in other stuff like an afterlife or ghosts etc and still be considered an atheist. The only pre-requisite is that you don't accept the existence of a God or Gods.

Deism=belief in a God, but not a personal God that you can pray to and who concerns himself with the day to day affairs of human beings like you find in a lot of religions. Basically, God starts everything off, then does not interfere with the universe afterwards.

There's also pandeism which is the idea that the Universe itself is the same thing as God, but this God again does not interfere with the affairs of humans or answer prayer.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Ok, so Einstein believed in Deism then.

It does seem Deism seems a better way to think with what is happening in the world past and present.

But its still ok to believe in Santa right?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Ok, so Einstein believed in Deism then.

It does seem Deism seems a better way to think with what is happening in the world past and present.

But its still ok to believe in Santa right?

Yes, Einstein was what you would call a pan-deist.

Incidentally though, Einstein didn't believe in an afterlife (again, not a pre-requisite to being a deist).

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Ok, so Einstein believed in Deism then.

It does seem Deism seems a better way to think with what is happening in the world past and present.

But its still ok to believe in Santa right?

Yes, Einstein was what you would call a pan-deist.

Incidentally though, Einstein didn't believe in an afterlife (again, not a pre-requisite to being a deist)."

I'm not sure I see the point of this god if it does nothing. Or is that the point, that there is no point to this god it just is?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If you believe it fair enough...if you dont

BURN IN HELL!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Ok, so Einstein believed in Deism then.

It does seem Deism seems a better way to think with what is happening in the world past and present.

But its still ok to believe in Santa right?

Yes, Einstein was what you would call a pan-deist.

Incidentally though, Einstein didn't believe in an afterlife (again, not a pre-requisite to being a deist).

I'm not sure I see the point of this god if it does nothing. Or is that the point, that there is no point to this god it just is?"

Pretty much.

But; given human being's immense insignificance in this universe, would it not be human arrogance to assume that God existed for our benefit? That there has to be 'a point' for us?

I would argue it's the other way around.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

P.s. By 'point for us'; I mean why would a God need to have a point? That's like saying 'what is the point of a human being's body to a red blood cell'?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"If you believe it fair enough...if you dont

BURN IN HELL!"

Ahh but what if you're like Einstein and you believe in a God...but not an afterlife?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I've stateted to think I might just be the fleeting thoughts of a larger organism....yes, its that pteri dish thing..

my time will be unfathomable to something much smaller(and i suppose much larger), in one case I may appear the most primitive of lifeforms, but to those 'lower' than me..I may appear as their god.

I might just be the passing synaptic neuron in something elses mind...for them it lasts less than a jiffy, to me, its an eternity

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I've stateted to think I might just be the fleeting thoughts of a larger organism....yes, its that pteri dish thing..

my time will be unfathomable to something much smaller(and i suppose much larger), in one case I may appear the most primitive of lifeforms, but to those 'lower' than me..I may appear as their god.

I might just be the passing synaptic neuron in something elses mind...for them it lasts less than a jiffy, to me, its an eternity

*started

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I've stateted to think I might just be the fleeting thoughts of a larger organism....yes, its that pteri dish thing..

my time will be unfathomable to something much smaller(and i suppose much larger), in one case I may appear the most primitive of lifeforms, but to those 'lower' than me..I may appear as their god.

I might just be the passing synaptic neuron in something elses mind...for them it lasts less than a jiffy, to me, its an eternity

This is pretty much my take on things. I think it's possible the whole universe is one immense, conscious organism and we are part of it; and I see no reason not to label such a being 'God'.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If you believe it fair enough...if you dont

BURN IN HELL!

Ahh but what if you're like Einstein and you believe in a God...but not an afterlife?

why does an afterlife incluse 'god'...arent we pretty much just recycled material?...the big bang may just be something as simple as a neuron firing over and over again, our perception can never fathom the idea in real terms...but if a mind is energy, and we are all actually connected..nothing actually leaves our plane of existence...

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I've stateted to think I might just be the fleeting thoughts of a larger organism....yes, its that pteri dish thing..

my time will be unfathomable to something much smaller(and i suppose much larger), in one case I may appear the most primitive of lifeforms, but to those 'lower' than me..I may appear as their god.

I might just be the passing synaptic neuron in something elses mind...for them it lasts less than a jiffy, to me, its an eternity

This is pretty much my take on things. I think it's possible the whole universe is one immense, conscious organism and we are part of it; and I see no reason not to label such a being 'God'.

maybe we are the cancer on another organism...

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"If you believe it fair enough...if you dont

BURN IN HELL!

Ahh but what if you're like Einstein and you believe in a God...but not an afterlife?

It doesn't have to include God...like I said earlier, there are plenty of religions and belief systems that believe in an afterlife but don't believe in a God.

Likewise there are belief systems and religions that accept the existence of a God or Gods but don't believe in an afterlife

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *1paljungMan
over a year ago

Richmond

"I've stateted to think I might just be the fleeting thoughts of a larger organism....yes, its that pteri dish thing..

my time will be unfathomable to something much smaller(and i suppose much larger), in one case I may appear the most primitive of lifeforms, but to those 'lower' than me..I may appear as their god.

I might just be the passing synaptic neuron in something elses mind...for them it lasts less than a jiffy, to me, its an eternity

*started"

I'm comforted by the fact my 700000000000000000000000000 atoms will live on in the Universe in some form or another for many years to come

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If you believe it fair enough...if you dont

BURN IN HELL!

Ahh but what if you're like Einstein and you believe in a God...but not an afterlife?

It doesn't have to include God...like I said earlier, there are plenty of religions and belief systems that believe in an afterlife but don't believe in a God.

Likewise there are belief systems and religions that accept the existence of a God or Gods but don't believe in an afterlife"

I'd like to think pure science..

I'd like to think everything on the gran scheme of things is pointless and has no meaning(cue psychopathy)

In a world where we know nothing actually changes the universe in a whole, I can argue , that something wont really matter...but the thoughts, the emotions of my past influences(learnings), have an effect on how I conduct my life.

It's anthropy with a devilish twist...and perhaps that is what keeps our reality going..order and chaos, a future set and a future that cannot be set..perplexing as it may sound..it is to me the only way a universe(s) can survive..thats if youb take into account the idea we have more than one existence.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I've stateted to think I might just be the fleeting thoughts of a larger organism....yes, its that pteri dish thing..

my time will be unfathomable to something much smaller(and i suppose much larger), in one case I may appear the most primitive of lifeforms, but to those 'lower' than me..I may appear as their god.

I might just be the passing synaptic neuron in something elses mind...for them it lasts less than a jiffy, to me, its an eternity

*started

I'm comforted by the fact my 700000000000000000000000000 atoms will live on in the Universe in some form or another for many years to come

I might have ur spunk on my face someday

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"If you believe it fair enough...if you dont

BURN IN HELL!

Ahh but what if you're like Einstein and you believe in a God...but not an afterlife?

It doesn't have to include God...like I said earlier, there are plenty of religions and belief systems that believe in an afterlife but don't believe in a God.

Likewise there are belief systems and religions that accept the existence of a God or Gods but don't believe in an afterlife

I'd like to think pure science..

I'd like to think everything on the gran scheme of things is pointless and has no meaning(cue psychopathy)

Well I think that ties in with what Einstein used to say that science will eventually 'eat' religion just as chemistry 'ate' alchemy.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If you believe it fair enough...if you dont

BURN IN HELL!

Ahh but what if you're like Einstein and you believe in a God...but not an afterlife?

It doesn't have to include God...like I said earlier, there are plenty of religions and belief systems that believe in an afterlife but don't believe in a God.

Likewise there are belief systems and religions that accept the existence of a God or Gods but don't believe in an afterlife

I'd like to think pure science..

I'd like to think everything on the gran scheme of things is pointless and has no meaning(cue psychopathy)

Well I think that ties in with what Einstein used to say that science will eventually 'eat' religion just as chemistry 'ate' alchemy."

I dont know much really about alchemy, but I cannot say that when these things were proposed, they must have had some incling that elements such as gold/diamond, were not just great to look at...we now know these elements are pretty much things our sciences could never have progressed with...

I dont think we've always been stupid lol..how we have relayed/acknowledged that information is what is stupid..or shrewd controlling...

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *1paljungMan
over a year ago

Richmond

"I've stateted to think...

I might just be the passing synaptic neuron in something elses mind...for them it lasts less than a jiffy, to me, its an eternity

*started

I'm comforted by the fact my 700000000000000000000000000 atoms will live on in the Universe in some form or another for many years to come

I might have ur spunk on my face someday

Haha, I'd pay good money to see that!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I've stateted to think...

I might just be the passing synaptic neuron in something elses mind...for them it lasts less than a jiffy, to me, its an eternity

*started

I'm comforted by the fact my 700000000000000000000000000 atoms will live on in the Universe in some form or another for many years to come

I might have ur spunk on my face someday

Haha, I'd pay good money to see that!"

in another universe babe

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *1paljungMan
over a year ago

Richmond

"I've stateted to think...

I might just be the passing synaptic neuron in something elses mind...for them it lasts less than a jiffy, to me, its an eternity

*started

I'm comforted by the fact my 700000000000000000000000000 atoms will live on in the Universe in some form or another for many years to come

I might have ur spunk on my face someday

Haha, I'd pay good money to see that!

in another universe babe

Quantum mechanics anyone?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"If you believe it fair enough...if you dont

BURN IN HELL!

Ahh but what if you're like Einstein and you believe in a God...but not an afterlife?

It doesn't have to include God...like I said earlier, there are plenty of religions and belief systems that believe in an afterlife but don't believe in a God.

Likewise there are belief systems and religions that accept the existence of a God or Gods but don't believe in an afterlife"

In deed and you don't have to look that far for a religion that believes in God but not in an after life. Not all Jewish doctrine has the concept of an after life. In fact this was the big split in Judaism at about the same time Christ. The Pharisees believed in an after life whilst the Sadducees did not. In fact the whole concept of heaven and hell, as we imagine them in the Western world, has far more to do with Greco/Roman ideas of Olympus and Hades than anything from the original Aramaic religions.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"If you believe it fair enough...if you dont

BURN IN HELL!

Ahh but what if you're like Einstein and you believe in a God...but not an afterlife?

It doesn't have to include God...like I said earlier, there are plenty of religions and belief systems that believe in an afterlife but don't believe in a God.

Likewise there are belief systems and religions that accept the existence of a God or Gods but don't believe in an afterlife

Abrahamic* (dam auto correct. grrr)

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Yep. Which is why I think the standard marxist (as well as other) explanation of religion as a means of distracting people from their lot in this life by promising them better things in an afterlife in order to exploit and control them falls flat.

Didn't early Judaism have no concept of an afterlife whatsoever? I'm sure there's a line in one of the earlier books of the Tanakh/Old Testament that says just that too.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

But the Greco-Roman concept of an afterlife had more in common with the ancient Celtic, Germanic/Norse and Slav afterlifes than the dual heaven/hell dynamic. (and indeed the Greek and Roman religions shared the same origins as these other religions); the whole notion was that it was only aristocrats who got to 'the nice place' (Elysium for the romans, Valhalla for the Norse, Germans and Saxons...etc)...with the added criteria with some of them that you had to die in battle. Everyone else held a sort of ghostly limbo-ish existence in the underworld (Hades to the Greeks and Romans, Hel to the Norse/Germans/Saxons...etc)

That said though, the romano-greek idea of the underworld did admittedly influence the later medieval Christian conception of hell-something not described at all in the bible.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Basically, God starts everything off, then does not interfere with the universe afterwards."

That's completely impossible. You would need to believe in a finite uiverse4 with a finite time line; something which is not only unlikely but imo theoretically impossible. If space and time are infinite... nothing could have come before it...hence it is impossible for it to have had a creator

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Basically, God starts everything off, then does not interfere with the universe afterwards.

I didn't say that's what I thought...I'm not a straight-up deist-rather a pandeist.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ensualtouch15Man
over a year ago

ashby de la zouch

"I've stateted to think I might just be the fleeting thoughts of a larger organism....yes, its that pteri dish thing..

my time will be unfathomable to something much smaller(and i suppose much larger), in one case I may appear the most primitive of lifeforms, but to those 'lower' than me..I may appear as their god.

I might just be the passing synaptic neuron in something elses mind...for them it lasts less than a jiffy, to me, its an eternity

This is pretty much my take on things. I think it's possible the whole universe is one immense, conscious organism and we are part of it; and I see no reason not to label such a being 'God'.

I see a number of reasons , the main one being language and communication . The word god cannot just be attributed to absolutely anything and expect to be understood or taken seriously

I'd suggest to qualify as a god concept certain parameters and attributes are essential to qualify to use the definition "god"

The main one would be sentient creator, a thinking orchestrator, an originator of all that exists matter and energy ,

If you don't include the above attributes to your imagined , theorised concept you do not have a "god" concept

Suggesting matter exists and has become sentient does not make the grade of a god concept it is , a theory regarding non terrestial life existing beyond earth, I understand we call these aliens

I have little doubt that beyond earth life of some description exists , no one has enough data to say more on that subject without stepping into relatively wild speculation

I have zero belief that the foundation of the universe is because an eternal something , reasoned it into being. We will always have the question regarding the origins of such an advanced orchestrator . Which we are always left with ,

it has always existed

or it evolved from non sentient mass

It does not matter how vague or how ethereal the imagined concept is the word God does have some intrinsic definition or else it is beyond meaningless

So God = eternal creator

if not whatever it may be and totally regardless of if a person wants it to be it is not a god concept

Here is a point, if we do not give the word god certain distinguishing parameters , we could all factually declare gravity and electricity ARE gods

Just need a telescope to observe how our Lord gravity shapes the visible universe , however the gravity god does not illustrate any creativity or decision making or sentient behaviour

Let's not forget there is zero data to suggest anything that could be termed "sentient orchestrator" exists in any format

And every story is wild speculation without any collaborative data, that is NOT saying a speculative theory cannot be illustrated to be true

Just a side note , suggesting the universe is concious has zero data . We currently have no idea if anything we could call life exists elsewhere , so I'm not being closed minded or unreasonable illustrating that said concept is speculation

however on earth there are examples of non concious communication pathways between plants, where it has been observed a plant will chemically signal if being attacked , nothing so far inorganic has exhibited any sign it can even do this and so far we only observe inorganic as the substance of the universe suggesting hydrogen gas is somehow alive and sentient is just imagination as nothing that would suggest this is evidenced

Gravity and kinetic energy explain the observations of gas clouds, stars, galaxies and solar systems and I'd suggest they are neither GOD or aliens

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Myself...probably pandeism. Kind of similar to what Einstein and Heidegger believed.

I also think, like Einstein, that the universe is strictly deterministic."

Sorry to disagree but I thought John Bell disproved Einstein's hypothesis- or at least that's what Jim al-khalili said on tv last week

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Basically, God starts everything off, then does not interfere with the universe afterwards.

But space and time are not infinite. The universe as we know it has a starting point, a point of creation, where everything that is was created. This is often refereed to as 'The Big Bang'. And all the evidence seems to suggest that time itself is not a steady flowing stream but is related in some way to gravity and mass; which means, in an oxymoron sort of way, time as we know it, is not infinite but could only exist after the creation of the universe itself.

The only way you can talk about anything being infinite is if it exited before the universe existed. A sort off time before time where nothing had shape or form. In this time before time we have one simple but un answerable question and it is this:- "Is the current perceived universe created by the will of a creator or is it a natural occurrence that just happened".

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ensualtouch15Man
over a year ago

ashby de la zouch

"Basically, God starts everything off, then does not interfere with the universe afterwards.

I don't believe big bang was the start of everything .