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"Having lived in the US, some time ago now, I can agree with BlackTC that there is a much stronger under flow of racism over there than here. It’s also true over there that more black kids tend to get shot and killed by police than white kids (and it’s also true that more black kids get shot by black kids than white kids by white kids). We have also seen in the news recently about the unarmed black kid in Ferguson being shot 12 times while it seems he had his hands up. It might well be that there is a racism under current to all this. As shown in Ferguson, not all police shootings should be justified. This surly needs to be addressed and not ignored. However, in this particular incident, for the reasons I’ve already said above, I really don’t see that the police officer had any real choice. " (sorry for the deletes ..... having a fat finger moment lol) fair enough .... but seeing as how you've resurrected this thread and out of sheer interest, what's your opinion on the Akai Gurley incident? | |||
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"Question I have to ask is how realistic was the fake gun I know when I was a boy toy guns were black or grey to look real but now they are bright orange and blues to avoid exactly this mistake " According to the reports I've seen, it was realistic looking and fitted with an orange marker to show it was fake, but that marker had been removed. | |||
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"Question I have to ask is how realistic was the fake gun I know when I was a boy toy guns were black or grey to look real but now they are bright orange and blues to avoid exactly this mistake " I've seen pictures of guns similar to the one the child's said to have had. It looks quite fake Sarah x | |||
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"Question I have to ask is how realistic was the fake gun I know when I was a boy toy guns were black or grey to look real but now they are bright orange and blues to avoid exactly this mistake I've seen pictures of guns similar to the one the child's said to have had. It looks quite fake Sarah x" You simply cannot tell that from looking, especially when it's being waved around in an intimidating manner. That's why they fit the bright orange plastic tip, in this case the tip had been removed to make it look real. It was the kids fault plain and simple.... | |||
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"Question I have to ask is how realistic was the fake gun I know when I was a boy toy guns were black or grey to look real but now they are bright orange and blues to avoid exactly this mistake I've seen pictures of guns similar to the one the child's said to have had. It looks quite fake Sarah x You simply cannot tell that from looking, especially when it's being waved around in an intimidating manner. That's why they fit the bright orange plastic tip, in this case the tip had been removed to make it look real. It was the kids fault plain and simple...." Okay 
Sarah x | |||
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"Question I have to ask is how realistic was the fake gun I know when I was a boy toy guns were black or grey to look real but now they are bright orange and blues to avoid exactly this mistake I've seen pictures of guns similar to the one the child's said to have had. It looks quite fake Sarah x You simply cannot tell that from looking, especially when it's being waved around in an intimidating manner. That's why they fit the bright orange plastic tip, in this case the tip had been removed to make it look real. It was the kids fault plain and simple.... Okay
Sarah x"Still not willing or able to put across a valid point I see. | |||
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" Trinity: They should of checked with the parents? Sorry but how many parents would necessarily know if their child was hiding a gun? If someone wants to hide something they will " I thin the original poster miss punctuated it. They probably meant Surely they should have double checked first. His poor parents | |||
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"Question I have to ask is how realistic was the fake gun I know when I was a boy toy guns were black or grey to look real but now they are bright orange and blues to avoid exactly this mistake " I america you will get shot at for carrying any gun like object, some paintball guns don't look like hand guns at all. There is a warning on the box saying 'the police will shoot at you, if you see n carrying the marker in public'. Seeing as you can adapt most things to fire a bullet nowadays, you just need the know how. | |||
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"Apparently it's a shoot to kill police policy now!, but of course it always has been when it suits them John stalker found that out thirty years ago,and statistics back this up. Funny how those two guys that hacked rigbys head off were only wounded though!. Anyhow I think with proper transparent internal enquiries, these incidents can be left to officials to sort out. However I would add the American police system is completely biased towards the police officer in question." . I think it has always been police policy to shoot to kill here and in America ! And yes I thought it strange lee Rigbys killers weren't killed ! I can only think they wanted to interrogate them ! I won't lie I would have been happy if they had killed them ! Mind I think they wanted that ! | |||
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"Question I have to ask is how realistic was the fake gun I know when I was a boy toy guns were black or grey to look real but now they are bright orange and blues to avoid exactly this mistake I've seen pictures of guns similar to the one the child's said to have had. It looks quite fake Sarah x You simply cannot tell that from looking, especially when it's being waved around in an intimidating manner. That's why they fit the bright orange plastic tip, in this case the tip had been removed to make it look real. It was the kids fault plain and simple.... Okay
Sarah x
Still not willing or able to put across a valid point I see. "You can see it however you like. The reality of it is though, I really can't be bothered arguing with you sorry
Sarah x | |||
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"Question I have to ask is how realistic was the fake gun I know when I was a boy toy guns were black or grey to look real but now they are bright orange and blues to avoid exactly this mistake I've seen pictures of guns similar to the one the child's said to have had. It looks quite fake Sarah x You simply cannot tell that from looking, especially when it's being waved around in an intimidating manner. That's why they fit the bright orange plastic tip, in this case the tip had been removed to make it look real. It was the kids fault plain and simple.... Okay
Sarah x
Still not willing or able to put across a valid point I see. ". I would say that using your own argument over training, that surely a highly trained, highly skilled fully grown man with bullet proof jacket, and a variety of weapons including the option of backup, should surely be able to curtail a 12 year old who's untrained and is "waiving" his weapon around randomly without having to shoot him dead instantly. | |||
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"Apparently it's a shoot to kill police policy now!, but of course it always has been when it suits them John stalker found that out thirty years ago,and statistics back this up. Funny how those two guys that hacked rigbys head off were only wounded though!. Anyhow I think with proper transparent internal enquiries, these incidents can be left to officials to sort out. However I would add the American police system is completely biased towards the police officer in question." Those two survived more to luck than marksmanship. It has always been policy to aim for centre mass (torso) this reduces the risk of missing and increases the incapacitating of the target. Aiming to shoot someone in the leg/ shoulder or trying to shoot a gun out of their hand is pure Hollywood make believe and also increases the risk of an innocent bystander being wounded or killed. | |||
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"Question I have to ask is how realistic was the fake gun I know when I was a boy toy guns were black or grey to look real but now they are bright orange and blues to avoid exactly this mistake I've seen pictures of guns similar to the one the child's said to have had. It looks quite fake Sarah x You simply cannot tell that from looking, especially when it's being waved around in an intimidating manner. That's why they fit the bright orange plastic tip, in this case the tip had been removed to make it look real. It was the kids fault plain and simple.... Okay
Sarah x
Still not willing or able to put across a valid point I see. .
I would say that using your own argument over training, that surely a highly trained, highly skilled fully grown man with bullet proof jacket, and a variety of weapons including the option of backup, should surely be able to curtail a 12 year old who's untrained and is "waiving" his weapon around randomly without having to shoot him dead instantly." | |||
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"Question I have to ask is how realistic was the fake gun I know when I was a boy toy guns were black or grey to look real but now they are bright orange and blues to avoid exactly this mistake I've seen pictures of guns similar to the one the child's said to have had. It looks quite fake Sarah x You simply cannot tell that from looking, especially when it's being waved around in an intimidating manner. That's why they fit the bright orange plastic tip, in this case the tip had been removed to make it look real. It was the kids fault plain and simple.... Okay
Sarah x
Still not willing or able to put across a valid point I see. .
I would say that using your own argument over training, that surely a highly trained, highly skilled fully grown man with bullet proof jacket, and a variety of weapons including the option of backup, should surely be able to curtail a 12 year old who's untrained and is "waiving" his weapon around randomly without having to shoot him dead instantly."You've watched too many movies I'm afraid.... | |||
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"Apparently it's a shoot to kill police policy now!, but of course it always has been when it suits them John stalker found that out thirty years ago,and statistics back this up. Funny how those two guys that hacked rigbys head off were only wounded though!. Anyhow I think with proper transparent internal enquiries, these incidents can be left to officials to sort out. However I would add the American police system is completely biased towards the police officer in question.. I think it has always been police policy to shoot to kill here and in America ! And yes I thought it strange lee Rigbys killers weren't killed ! I can only think they wanted to interrogate them ! I won't lie I would have been happy if they had killed them ! Mind I think they wanted that !" . And I agree with you totally. Which proves they can "take you alive" when it suits them no? | |||
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"Question I have to ask is how realistic was the fake gun I know when I was a boy toy guns were black or grey to look real but now they are bright orange and blues to avoid exactly this mistake I've seen pictures of guns similar to the one the child's said to have had. It looks quite fake Sarah x You simply cannot tell that from looking, especially when it's being waved around in an intimidating manner. That's why they fit the bright orange plastic tip, in this case the tip had been removed to make it look real. It was the kids fault plain and simple.... Okay
Sarah x
Still not willing or able to put across a valid point I see. .
I would say that using your own argument over training, that surely a highly trained, highly skilled fully grown man with bullet proof jacket, and a variety of weapons including the option of backup, should surely be able to curtail a 12 year old who's untrained and is "waiving" his weapon around randomly without having to shoot him dead instantly.
You've watched too many movies I'm afraid....". I rarely watch them I'm afraid but if your saying it wouldn't make a difference?.... Then why bother training them then! | |||
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"Apparently it's a shoot to kill police policy now!, but of course it always has been when it suits them John stalker found that out thirty years ago,and statistics back this up. Funny how those two guys that hacked rigbys head off were only wounded though!. Anyhow I think with proper transparent internal enquiries, these incidents can be left to officials to sort out. However I would add the American police system is completely biased towards the police officer in question.. I think it has always been police policy to shoot to kill here and in America ! And yes I thought it strange lee Rigbys killers weren't killed ! I can only think they wanted to interrogate them ! I won't lie I would have been happy if they had killed them ! Mind I think they wanted that !" I thought it was more the situation....the killers ran at the police as they were getting out of their car so maybe it wasn't as controlled as having a minute to focus on where you are meant to shoot...obviously this is just a guess on my part. | |||
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"Apparently it's a shoot to kill police policy now!, but of course it always has been when it suits them John stalker found that out thirty years ago,and statistics back this up. Funny how those two guys that hacked rigbys head off were only wounded though!. Anyhow I think with proper transparent internal enquiries, these incidents can be left to officials to sort out. However I would add the American police system is completely biased towards the police officer in question. Those two survived more to luck than marksmanship. It has always been policy to aim for centre mass (torso) this reduces the risk of missing and increases the incapacitating of the target. Aiming to shoot someone in the leg/ shoulder or trying to shoot a gun out of their hand is pure Hollywood make believe and also increases the risk of an innocent bystander being wounded or killed." . Wow they both got lucky on the same day even after being shot by different "marksmen", who are trained rigorously in shoot to kill.... That is lucky  | |||
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"Question I have to ask is how realistic was the fake gun I know when I was a boy toy guns were black or grey to look real but now they are bright orange and blues to avoid exactly this mistake I've seen pictures of guns similar to the one the child's said to have had. It looks quite fake Sarah x You simply cannot tell that from looking, especially when it's being waved around in an intimidating manner. That's why they fit the bright orange plastic tip, in this case the tip had been removed to make it look real. It was the kids fault plain and simple.... Okay
Sarah x
Still not willing or able to put across a valid point I see. .
I would say that using your own argument over training, that surely a highly trained, highly skilled fully grown man with bullet proof jacket, and a variety of weapons including the option of backup, should surely be able to curtail a 12 year old who's untrained and is "waiving" his weapon around randomly without having to shoot him dead instantly.
You've watched too many movies I'm afraid.....
I rarely watch them I'm afraid but if your saying it wouldn't make a difference?.... Then why bother training them then!"It's not just about target practice, it's also about assessing personal risk, risk to others and several other factors. Could the officer have tried a wounding shot? Yes, he could possibly have but what was behind the target had he missed or the round overpenetrated? Could that stray round have gone in to kill an innocent child? What if the gun was real and the wounding shot only caused the offender to open fire and possibly kill or wound several other people? The choice to shoot and kill someone isn't something taken lightly but in most cases it's necessary as a wounding shot is probably more dangerous. | |||
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"Apparently it's a shoot to kill police policy now!, but of course it always has been when it suits them John stalker found that out thirty years ago,and statistics back this up. Funny how those two guys that hacked rigbys head off were only wounded though!. Anyhow I think with proper transparent internal enquiries, these incidents can be left to officials to sort out. However I would add the American police system is completely biased towards the police officer in question. Those two survived more to luck than marksmanship. It has always been policy to aim for centre mass (torso) this reduces the risk of missing and increases the incapacitating of the target. Aiming to shoot someone in the leg/ shoulder or trying to shoot a gun out of their hand is pure Hollywood make believe and also increases the risk of an innocent bystander being wounded or killed.. Wow they both got lucky on the same day even after being shot by different "marksmen", who are trained rigorously in shoot to kill.... That is lucky "Plenty of people survive multiple gunshot wounds. One of the most famous (currently) is Marcus Luttrell, not only was he shot several times in the upper body he was also shot 11 times in the legs and had 6 spinal fractures. He walked unaided to a rescue helicopter. | |||
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"If toy guns have an orange tip on them, whats to stop anyone adding an orange tip to a real gun." Nothing. Stop giving criminals ideas!  | |||
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"Question I have to ask is how realistic was the fake gun I know when I was a boy toy guns were black or grey to look real but now they are bright orange and blues to avoid exactly this mistake I've seen pictures of guns similar to the one the child's said to have had. It looks quite fake Sarah x You simply cannot tell that from looking, especially when it's being waved around in an intimidating manner. That's why they fit the bright orange plastic tip, in this case the tip had been removed to make it look real. It was the kids fault plain and simple.... Okay
Sarah x
Still not willing or able to put across a valid point I see. .
I would say that using your own argument over training, that surely a highly trained, highly skilled fully grown man with bullet proof jacket, and a variety of weapons including the option of backup, should surely be able to curtail a 12 year old who's untrained and is "waiving" his weapon around randomly without having to shoot him dead instantly.
You've watched too many movies I'm afraid.....
I rarely watch them I'm afraid but if your saying it wouldn't make a difference?.... Then why bother training them then!
It's not just about target practice, it's also about assessing personal risk, risk to others and several other factors. Could the officer have tried a wounding shot? Yes, he could possibly have but what was behind the target had he missed or the round overpenetrated? Could that stray round have gone in to kill an innocent child?
What if the gun was real and the wounding shot only caused the offender to open fire and possibly kill or wound several other people?
The choice to shoot and kill someone isn't something taken lightly but in most cases it's necessary as a wounding shot is probably more dangerous.". Yes I heard it said before that a wounded animal is more dangerous! I'd say seriously shoot them in the leg or the shin and come back and tell me it isn't debilitating. | |||
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"If toy guns have an orange tip on them, whats to stop anyone adding an orange tip to a real gun. Nothing. Stop giving criminals ideas! "Oooppss ignore that any criminals watching this thread  | |||
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" _its_n_pieces: (sorry for the deletes ..... having a fat finger moment lol) fair enough .... but seeing as how you've resurrected this thread and out of sheer interest, what's your opinion on the Akai Gurley incident? " I don't think is as clear cut as the Ferguson, Missouri case. A rooky policeman, by his names sounds like ethnic Chine's origin, shot a block man on a dark stair well. To me it seems like it was an accident. That's not to say the officer should not punished, and punished in a similar way to way anyone else would be punished if they accidently killed someone. a manslaughter charge at the very least. I also think that it brings into questioning the level of fire arms training that was provided to the rooky. I don't necessarily believe it was a racist killing. | |||
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"Question I have to ask is how realistic was the fake gun I know when I was a boy toy guns were black or grey to look real but now they are bright orange and blues to avoid exactly this mistake I've seen pictures of guns similar to the one the child's said to have had. It looks quite fake Sarah x You simply cannot tell that from looking, especially when it's being waved around in an intimidating manner. That's why they fit the bright orange plastic tip, in this case the tip had been removed to make it look real. It was the kids fault plain and simple.... Okay
Sarah x
Still not willing or able to put across a valid point I see. .
I would say that using your own argument over training, that surely a highly trained, highly skilled fully grown man with bullet proof jacket, and a variety of weapons including the option of backup, should surely be able to curtail a 12 year old who's untrained and is "waiving" his weapon around randomly without having to shoot him dead instantly.
You've watched too many movies I'm afraid.....
I rarely watch them I'm afraid but if your saying it wouldn't make a difference?.... Then why bother training them then!
It's not just about target practice, it's also about assessing personal risk, risk to others and several other factors. Could the officer have tried a wounding shot? Yes, he could possibly have but what was behind the target had he missed or the round overpenetrated? Could that stray round have gone in to kill an innocent child?
What if the gun was real and the wounding shot only caused the offender to open fire and possibly kill or wound several other people?
The choice to shoot and kill someone isn't something taken lightly but in most cases it's necessary as a wounding shot is probably more dangerous..
Yes I heard it said before that a wounded animal is more dangerous!
I'd say seriously shoot them in the leg or the shin and come back and tell me it isn't debilitating."It often isn't. | |||
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"Apparently it's a shoot to kill police policy now!, but of course it always has been when it suits them John stalker found that out thirty years ago,and statistics back this up. Funny how those two guys that hacked rigbys head off were only wounded though!. Anyhow I think with proper transparent internal enquiries, these incidents can be left to officials to sort out. However I would add the American police system is completely biased towards the police officer in question. Those two survived more to luck than marksmanship. It has always been policy to aim for centre mass (torso) this reduces the risk of missing and increases the incapacitating of the target. Aiming to shoot someone in the leg/ shoulder or trying to shoot a gun out of their hand is pure Hollywood make believe and also increases the risk of an innocent bystander being wounded or killed.. Wow they both got lucky on the same day even after being shot by different "marksmen", who are trained rigorously in shoot to kill.... That is lucky
Plenty of people survive multiple gunshot wounds. One of the most famous (currently) is Marcus Luttrell, not only was he shot several times in the upper body he was also shot 11 times in the legs and had 6 spinal fractures. He walked unaided to a rescue helicopter.". What distance was he shot at, what calibre weapons, was he on pcp or another drug, where were the gun shot wounds on his upper torso!! | |||
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"Having lived in the US, some time ago now, I can agree with BlackTC that there is a much stronger under flow of racism over there than here. It’s also true over there that more black kids tend to get shot and killed by police than white kids (and it’s also true that more black kids get shot by black kids than white kids by white kids). We have also seen in the news recently about the unarmed black kid in Ferguson being shot 12 times while it seems he had his hands up. It might well be that there is a racism under current to all this. As shown in Ferguson, not all police shootings should be justified. This surly needs to be addressed and not ignored. However, in this particular incident, for the reasons I’ve already said above, I really don’t see that the police officer had any real choice. " Thanks for the private message, but I sense that some have taken my response as a personal attach on the other thread..... Plus, whenever we are accused of playing the race card. It leaves little to no room for rational conversation thereafter.. We are relegated to simply having a chip on our shoulder.. Though my point, was to highlight a factor, I believe most British people would not really see or understand. We are very different here.. | |||
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"Question I have to ask is how realistic was the fake gun I know when I was a boy toy guns were black or grey to look real but now they are bright orange and blues to avoid exactly this mistake I've seen pictures of guns similar to the one the child's said to have had. It looks quite fake Sarah x You simply cannot tell that from looking, especially when it's being waved around in an intimidating manner. That's why they fit the bright orange plastic tip, in this case the tip had been removed to make it look real. It was the kids fault plain and simple.... Okay
Sarah x
Still not willing or able to put across a valid point I see. .
I would say that using your own argument over training, that surely a highly trained, highly skilled fully grown man with bullet proof jacket, and a variety of weapons including the option of backup, should surely be able to curtail a 12 year old who's untrained and is "waiving" his weapon around randomly without having to shoot him dead instantly.
You've watched too many movies I'm afraid.....
I rarely watch them I'm afraid but if your saying it wouldn't make a difference?.... Then why bother training them then!
It's not just about target practice, it's also about assessing personal risk, risk to others and several other factors. Could the officer have tried a wounding shot? Yes, he could possibly have but what was behind the target had he missed or the round overpenetrated? Could that stray round have gone in to kill an innocent child?
What if the gun was real and the wounding shot only caused the offender to open fire and possibly kill or wound several other people?
The choice to shoot and kill someone isn't something taken lightly but in most cases it's necessary as a wounding shot is probably more dangerous..
Yes I heard it said before that a wounded animal is more dangerous!
I'd say seriously shoot them in the leg or the shin and come back and tell me it isn't debilitating.
It often isn't.". One minute you say guns are deadly and this kid had to be taken out and next your saying you can shoot people all over without being killed. Make your mind up! | |||
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"Question I have to ask is how realistic was the fake gun I know when I was a boy toy guns were black or grey to look real but now they are bright orange and blues to avoid exactly this mistake I've seen pictures of guns similar to the one the child's said to have had. It looks quite fake Sarah x You simply cannot tell that from looking, especially when it's being waved around in an intimidating manner. That's why they fit the bright orange plastic tip, in this case the tip had been removed to make it look real. It was the kids fault plain and simple.... Okay
Sarah x
Still not willing or able to put across a valid point I see. .
I would say that using your own argument over training, that surely a highly trained, highly skilled fully grown man with bullet proof jacket, and a variety of weapons including the option of backup, should surely be able to curtail a 12 year old who's untrained and is "waiving" his weapon around randomly without having to shoot him dead instantly.
You've watched too many movies I'm afraid.....
I rarely watch them I'm afraid but if your saying it wouldn't make a difference?.... Then why bother training them then!
It's not just about target practice, it's also about assessing personal risk, risk to others and several other factors. Could the officer have tried a wounding shot? Yes, he could possibly have but what was behind the target had he missed or the round overpenetrated? Could that stray round have gone in to kill an innocent child?
What if the gun was real and the wounding shot only caused the offender to open fire and possibly kill or wound several other people?
The choice to shoot and kill someone isn't something taken lightly but in most cases it's necessary as a wounding shot is probably more dangerous..
Yes I heard it said before that a wounded animal is more dangerous!
I'd say seriously shoot them in the leg or the shin and come back and tell me it isn't debilitating.
It often isn't..
One minute you say guns are deadly and this kid had to be taken out and next your saying you can shoot people all over without being killed.
Make your mind up!" | |||
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"Apparently it's a shoot to kill police policy now!, but of course it always has been when it suits them John stalker found that out thirty years ago,and statistics back this up. Funny how those two guys that hacked rigbys head off were only wounded though!. Anyhow I think with proper transparent internal enquiries, these incidents can be left to officials to sort out. However I would add the American police system is completely biased towards the police officer in question. Those two survived more to luck than marksmanship. It has always been policy to aim for centre mass (torso) this reduces the risk of missing and increases the incapacitating of the target. Aiming to shoot someone in the leg/ shoulder or trying to shoot a gun out of their hand is pure Hollywood make believe and also increases the risk of an innocent bystander being wounded or killed.. Wow they both got lucky on the same day even after being shot by different "marksmen", who are trained rigorously in shoot to kill.... That is lucky
Plenty of people survive multiple gunshot wounds. One of the most famous (currently) is Marcus Luttrell, not only was he shot several times in the upper body he was also shot 11 times in the legs and had 6 spinal fractures. He walked unaided to a rescue helicopter..
What distance was he shot at, what calibre weapons, was he on pcp or another drug, where were the gun shot wounds on his upper torso!!"He was a US Navy SEAL. He was shot with 7.63x39 AK-47 rounds, he was also covered in shrapnel from RPG's and had fallen nearly 1000ft down a mountain. He had no access to medical equipment either as his medical supply bag had been lost at the start of the engagement. One of his fellow SEALs was shot in the head and was still able to fight. | |||
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"Question I have to ask is how realistic was the fake gun I know when I was a boy toy guns were black or grey to look real but now they are bright orange and blues to avoid exactly this mistake I've seen pictures of guns similar to the one the child's said to have had. It looks quite fake Sarah x You simply cannot tell that from looking, especially when it's being waved around in an intimidating manner. That's why they fit the bright orange plastic tip, in this case the tip had been removed to make it look real. It was the kids fault plain and simple.... Okay
Sarah x
Still not willing or able to put across a valid point I see. .
I would say that using your own argument over training, that surely a highly trained, highly skilled fully grown man with bullet proof jacket, and a variety of weapons including the option of backup, should surely be able to curtail a 12 year old who's untrained and is "waiving" his weapon around randomly without having to shoot him dead instantly.
You've watched too many movies I'm afraid.....
I rarely watch them I'm afraid but if your saying it wouldn't make a difference?.... Then why bother training them then!
It's not just about target practice, it's also about assessing personal risk, risk to others and several other factors. Could the officer have tried a wounding shot? Yes, he could possibly have but what was behind the target had he missed or the round overpenetrated? Could that stray round have gone in to kill an innocent child?
What if the gun was real and the wounding shot only caused the offender to open fire and possibly kill or wound several other people?
The choice to shoot and kill someone isn't something taken lightly but in most cases it's necessary as a wounding shot is probably more dangerous..
Yes I heard it said before that a wounded animal is more dangerous!
I'd say seriously shoot them in the leg or the shin and come back and tell me it isn't debilitating.
It often isn't..
One minute you say guns are deadly and this kid had to be taken out and next your saying you can shoot people all over without being killed.
Make your mind up!"Guns are deadly. It's often a lottery whether a bullet will kill you or not. Would you like to take that chance? Would you like your kids to take that chance? | |||
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"Apparently it's a shoot to kill police policy now!, but of course it always has been when it suits them John stalker found that out thirty years ago,and statistics back this up. Funny how those two guys that hacked rigbys head off were only wounded though!. Anyhow I think with proper transparent internal enquiries, these incidents can be left to officials to sort out. However I would add the American police system is completely biased towards the police officer in question. Those two survived more to luck than marksmanship. It has always been policy to aim for centre mass (torso) this reduces the risk of missing and increases the incapacitating of the target. Aiming to shoot someone in the leg/ shoulder or trying to shoot a gun out of their hand is pure Hollywood make believe and also increases the risk of an innocent bystander being wounded or killed.. Wow they both got lucky on the same day even after being shot by different "marksmen", who are trained rigorously in shoot to kill.... That is lucky
Plenty of people survive multiple gunshot wounds. One of the most famous (currently) is Marcus Luttrell, not only was he shot several times in the upper body he was also shot 11 times in the legs and had 6 spinal fractures. He walked unaided to a rescue helicopter..
What distance was he shot at, what calibre weapons, was he on pcp or another drug, where were the gun shot wounds on his upper torso!!
He was a US Navy SEAL. He was shot with 7.63x39 AK-47 rounds, he was also covered in shrapnel from RPG's and had fallen nearly 1000ft down a mountain. He had no access to medical equipment either as his medical supply bag had been lost at the start of the engagement. One of his fellow SEALs was shot in the head and was still able to fight. "ohhh so this wasn't a 12 year old kid " waiving " a replica weapon or even any criminal at all.... But I highly trained soldier fighting in a combat situation. Yeah that's a great comparison. | |||
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"Question I have to ask is how realistic was the fake gun I know when I was a boy toy guns were black or grey to look real but now they are bright orange and blues to avoid exactly this mistake I've seen pictures of guns similar to the one the child's said to have had. It looks quite fake Sarah x You simply cannot tell that from looking, especially when it's being waved around in an intimidating manner. That's why they fit the bright orange plastic tip, in this case the tip had been removed to make it look real. It was the kids fault plain and simple.... Okay
Sarah x
Still not willing or able to put across a valid point I see. .
I would say that using your own argument over training, that surely a highly trained, highly skilled fully grown man with bullet proof jacket, and a variety of weapons including the option of backup, should surely be able to curtail a 12 year old who's untrained and is "waiving" his weapon around randomly without having to shoot him dead instantly.
You've watched too many movies I'm afraid.....
I rarely watch them I'm afraid but if your saying it wouldn't make a difference?.... Then why bother training them then!
It's not just about target practice, it's also about assessing personal risk, risk to others and several other factors. Could the officer have tried a wounding shot? Yes, he could possibly have but what was behind the target had he missed or the round overpenetrated? Could that stray round have gone in to kill an innocent child?
What if the gun was real and the wounding shot only caused the offender to open fire and possibly kill or wound several other people?
The choice to shoot and kill someone isn't something taken lightly but in most cases it's necessary as a wounding shot is probably more dangerous..
Yes I heard it said before that a wounded animal is more dangerous!
I'd say seriously shoot them in the leg or the shin and come back and tell me it isn't debilitating.
It often isn't..
One minute you say guns are deadly and this kid had to be taken out and next your saying you can shoot people all over without being killed.
Make your mind up!
Guns are deadly. It's often a lottery whether a bullet will kill you or not. Would you like to take that chance? Would you like your kids to take that chance?". Nope that's why I would approve of a blanket ban. And police officers facing the same court as any other citizen to examine the evidence before proclaiming justification. | |||
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"I think there's still more to be said on this trading but important issue " just thank god our police don't carry guns per-say.... those yanks are barking, gun mad. | |||
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"Question I have to ask is how realistic was the fake gun I know when I was a boy toy guns were black or grey to look real but now they are bright orange and blues to avoid exactly this mistake I've seen pictures of guns similar to the one the child's said to have had. It looks quite fake Sarah x You simply cannot tell that from looking, especially when it's being waved around in an intimidating manner. That's why they fit the bright orange plastic tip, in this case the tip had been removed to make it look real. It was the kids fault plain and simple.... Okay
Sarah x
Still not willing or able to put across a valid point I see. .
I would say that using your own argument over training, that surely a highly trained, highly skilled fully grown man with bullet proof jacket, and a variety of weapons including the option of backup, should surely be able to curtail a 12 year old who's untrained and is "waiving" his weapon around randomly without having to shoot him dead instantly.
You've watched too many movies I'm afraid.....
I rarely watch them I'm afraid but if your saying it wouldn't make a difference?.... Then why bother training them then!
It's not just about target practice, it's also about assessing personal risk, risk to others and several other factors. Could the officer have tried a wounding shot? Yes, he could possibly have but what was behind the target had he missed or the round overpenetrated? Could that stray round have gone in to kill an innocent child?
What if the gun was real and the wounding shot only caused the offender to open fire and possibly kill or wound several other people?
The choice to shoot and kill someone isn't something taken lightly but in most cases it's necessary as a wounding shot is probably more dangerous..
Yes I heard it said before that a wounded animal is more dangerous!
I'd say seriously shoot them in the leg or the shin and come back and tell me it isn't debilitating.
It often isn't..
One minute you say guns are deadly and this kid had to be taken out and next your saying you can shoot people all over without being killed.
Make your mind up!
Guns are deadly. It's often a lottery whether a bullet will kill you or not. Would you like to take that chance? Would you like your kids to take that chance?.
Nope that's why I would approve of a blanket ban.
And police officers facing the same court as any other citizen to examine the evidence before proclaiming justification."Would your blanket ban also rely on the good faith of criminals to hand over their weapons too? It would be great to live in a utopian society where everyone was nice to each other and we all went to work riding unicorns but sadly the world just isn't like that. This kid did something incredibly stupid and tragically paid the ultimate price for it. I'm sure the cop that shot him feels pretty damned awful about it too. | |||
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" _its_n_pieces: (sorry for the deletes ..... having a fat finger moment lol) fair enough .... but seeing as how you've resurrected this thread and out of sheer interest, what's your opinion on the Akai Gurley incident? I don't think is as clear cut as the Ferguson, Missouri case. A rooky policeman, by his names sounds like ethnic Chine's origin, shot a block man on a dark stair well. To me it seems like it was an accident. That's not to say the officer should not punished, and punished in a similar way to way anyone else would be punished if they accidently killed someone. a manslaughter charge at the very least. I also think that it brings into questioning the level of fire arms training that was provided to the rooky. I don't necessarily believe it was a racist killing. " i wasn't asking if you thought the incident was racially motivated, i was asking more a question of the circumstances | |||
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" _its_n_pieces: i wasn't asking if you thought the incident was racially motivated, i was asking more a question of the circumstances" I think I covered that also. Clearly an accident but an accident with such a serious consequence that the person responsible for it should receive some sort of punishment | |||
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"do some folk really think that having a one size fits all opinion as to wether a 12 year old boy .... not a teenager ... a boy ... has a full understanding of the gravity of the situation he was in? regardless of fault or blame there is a distinct lack of compassion about this tragic event from some posters on this thread " | |||
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"do some folk really think that having a one size fits all opinion as to wether a 12 year old boy .... not a teenager ... a boy ... has a full understanding of the gravity of the situation he was in? regardless of fault or blame there is a distinct lack of compassion about this tragic event from some posters on this thread "
I totally agree with you on that. This is a real tragedy especially for the kids parents. My heart goes out to them.
But I still believe that the policeman involved had no real choice when taking the action he did.
It's an awful situation which ever way you look at it | |||
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"do some folk really think that having a one size fits all opinion as to wether a 12 year old boy .... not a teenager ... a boy ... has a full understanding of the gravity of the situation he was in? regardless of fault or blame there is a distinct lack of compassion about this tragic event from some posters on this thread "Do you not think a 12yr old should know to put a gun down (whether real or a toy) when instructed to do so by an armed and clearly identified police officer? | |||
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"I think there's still more to be said on this trading but important issue just thank god our police don't carry guns per-say.... those yanks are barking, gun mad." There are worryingly more than you think. In London, for example, an armed police unit will get to scene in 7 minutes. An ambulance will take 8 minutes. | |||
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"do some folk really think that having a one size fits all opinion as to wether a 12 year old boy .... not a teenager ... a boy ... has a full understanding of the gravity of the situation he was in? regardless of fault or blame there is a distinct lack of compassion about this tragic event from some posters on this thread
Do you not think a 12yr old should know to put a gun down (whether real or a toy) when instructed to do so by an armed and clearly identified police officer?"no I don't take it as a given that every child can make an instant judgement like that as it goes. children take longer to process a train of thought than adults do, especially when a person in authority is yelling at them, they can get easily confused and often are unable to react swiftly .... he was a minor and they haven't got the life skills of an adult .... the officer must accept a degree of responsibility for what happened in the same way that a driver must accept a certain amount of responsibility when a child runs out in front of a car, which of course we are ALL tought not to do but alas still happens every day. | |||
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"do some folk really think that having a one size fits all opinion as to wether a 12 year old boy .... not a teenager ... a boy ... has a full understanding of the gravity of the situation he was in? regardless of fault or blame there is a distinct lack of compassion about this tragic event from some posters on this thread
Do you not think a 12yr old should know to put a gun down (whether real or a toy) when instructed to do so by an armed and clearly identified police officer?"If they were raised right and taught to respect the law then yes....end of! | |||
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"TrinityX76 If they were raised right and taught to respect the law then yes....end of!" I think that’s a little harsh. Bits_n_pieces makes a very fair point. This kid DID NOT deserve to die. He was, at the end of the day, just a kid, not even a teenager. No way did he DEDEREVE to die. We should be able to show a little more compassion for him and his parents. Imagine if it had been your own kid. You would be just as upset regardless of if the policeman was justified or not. BUT, and I say it again, what else was the policeman meant to do when the kid didn’t put his hands up. It could have been a real gun and, if so, could have been used to shoot at the officer or other innocent people nearby. He had no real choice but to shoot. | |||
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"TrinityX76 If they were raised right and taught to respect the law then yes....end of! I think that’s a little harsh. Bits_n_pieces makes a very fair point. This kid DID NOT deserve to die. He was, at the end of the day, just a kid, not even a teenager. No way did he DEDEREVE to die. We should be able to show a little more compassion for him and his parents. Imagine if it had been your own kid. You would be just as upset regardless of if the policeman was justified or not. BUT, and I say it again, what else was the policeman meant to do when the kid didn’t put his hands up. It could have been a real gun and, if so, could have been used to shoot at the officer or other innocent people nearby. He had no real choice but to shoot. " No where did I say that the boy deserved to die....I was merely replying to a comment about whether a 12yr old would know to obey a police officer.....please don't put words in my mouth! | |||
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"TrinityX76 If they were raised right and taught to respect the law then yes....end of! No where did I say that the boy deserved to die....I was merely replying to a comment about whether a 12yr old would know to obey a police officer.....please don't put words in my mouth!" I didn’t mean to put words in your mouth but your comment sounded to me that, because the kid not know to do as he was told by the police officer, he deserved to die. I think others may have interpreted it in a similar way. Your clarification on your comment is helpful. However I still feel than the ending ‘… end of’ lacks any real compassion or understanding of the anguish and hurt that his parents must be going through at this time. It’s not always what one says but more often how one says it that delivers meaning; especially in any form of text message. | |||
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"I really do feel for this child and it is horrible that his actions exposed him to a VERY scary situation that ultimately cost him his life and child should ever have to experience this. Now that it is known that it was an imitation firearm, im sure that everyone including the officer involved can think of 100s of ways the situation could have been handled differently BUT at that given time no one knew if the gun was real/fake, loaded or empty and that police officer had a duty of care to protect the public therefore having to treat it as a loaded firearm regardless of the fact it was a child possessing it. There is no such thing as shoot to wound as a bullet is designed and intended only for killing. Police/military are all taught to aim for centre mass therefore increasing the chances of not only striking your target but striking major organs too. The most common round to be issued in both US and british law enforcement handguns is the 9x19 parabellum, which is a very lightweight and very fast moving round as a result of this targeting areas such as limbs and fleshy areas increases the chances of a 'zip through' aka over penetration and leaves potential for that round to continue on and strike innocents. I have lived in the states and have a parent who is american and yes I am pro gun but I also feel that guns have become so common place in this world people have lost respect for the damage they can do and it would appear this child found himself in this situation due to a lack of said respect and understanding of what would happen. I have no intention of offending anyone just merely my opinion on this sad news. I sincerely feel for all parties involved but more so for the child as he has lost out on so much life when im sure he was only seeking excitement and fun. Inky " | |||
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"TrinityX76 If they were raised right and taught to respect the law then yes....end of! No where did I say that the boy deserved to die....I was merely replying to a comment about whether a 12yr old would know to obey a police officer.....please don't put words in my mouth! I didn’t mean to put words in your mouth but your comment sounded to me that, because the kid not know to do as he was told by the police officer, he deserved to die. I think others may have interpreted it in a similar way. Your clarification on your comment is helpful. However I still feel than the ending ‘… end of’ lacks any real compassion or understanding of the anguish and hurt that his parents must be going through at this time. It’s not always what one says but more often how one says it that delivers meaning; especially in any form of text message. " I am a mother of an 8yr old boy so please do not try to tell me that I lack compassion about what his parents must be going through right now because you really have no idea. You started this thread wanting people's opinions on the tragic accident and I was merely stating an opinion on a previous persons post. I do question what he was doing running around scaring people with the gun (the 911 callers words not mine), I do question why he didn't do what the police officers told him to do if they were clear and concise.....I do however also question a lot that the officers did. I was a split second moment where decisions were made rightly or wrongly and it is a waste of a young life. | |||
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" This kid DID NOT deserve to die. He was, at the end of the day, just a kid, not even a teenager. No way did he DEDEREVE to die. We should be able to show a little more compassion for him and his parents. Imagine if it had been your own kid. You would be just as upset regardless of if the policeman was justified or not. BUT, and I say it again, what else was the policeman meant to do when the kid didn’t put his hands up. It could have been a real gun and, if so, could have been used to shoot at the officer or other innocent people nearby. He had no real choice but to shoot. " I totally agree with the above... There has been a lot of rubbish spouted on this tragedy... Shoot to wound, racism, tasering... etc Clearly these comments have been made by people who have never fired a gun or been involved in any type of split second life threatening situation... Have you ever heard the expression "you don't take a knife to a gun fight". That explains why a police officer would not draw a taser on someone with a gun... How would you explain to the parent of a dead child that they died because you were having a bulletproof suit shipped in, just in case the shooter had a replica gun? As far as racism is concerned, I very much doubt that the officer drove there thinking this kid is dead. What ever your colour if you do as the officer tells you, you will survive. Disobey the officer you will get shot. Survival depends on a lot of factors, the person pulling the trigger has little say in how lightly or heavily injured the person is. Unless the shooter is a sniper and can place the round in exactly the right place, it really is luck of the draw... | |||
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"TrinityX76 If they were raised right and taught to respect the law then yes....end of! No where did I say that the boy deserved to die....I was merely replying to a comment about whether a 12yr old would know to obey a police officer.....please don't put words in my mouth! I didn’t mean to put words in your mouth but your comment sounded to me that, because the kid not know to do as he was told by the police officer, he deserved to die. I think others may have interpreted it in a similar way. Your clarification on your comment is helpful. However I still feel than the ending ‘… end of’ lacks any real compassion or understanding of the anguish and hurt that his parents must be going through at this time. It’s not always what one says but more often how one says it that delivers meaning; especially in any form of text message. I am a mother of an 8yr old boy so please do not try to tell me that I lack compassion about what his parents must be going through right now because you really have no idea. You started this thread wanting people's opinions on the tragic accident and I was merely stating an opinion on a previous persons post. I do question what he was doing running around scaring people with the gun (the 911 callers words not mine), I do question why he didn't do what the police officers told him to do if they were clear and concise.....I do however also question a lot that the officers did. I was a split second moment where decisions were made rightly or wrongly and it is a waste of a young life." I'm truly sorry. I was not trying to attack you personally, please don't take it that way. I simply pointed out how what you were saying sounded to me. You have now completely clarified your position and it is one I totally agree with. That is 1) The boy did not deserve to die. 2) His parents must be desperately upset and, regardless of the rights and wrongs, we should have some compassion for them and how they feel. 3) The police man did the only thing he could do the given situation. I hope I have not upset or annoyed you by pushing you about your comment. If I have please accept my sincere apologies. | |||
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"Question I have to ask is how realistic was the fake gun I know when I was a boy toy guns were black or grey to look real but now they are bright orange and blues to avoid exactly this mistake I've seen pictures of guns similar to the one the child's said to have had. It looks quite fake Sarah x You simply cannot tell that from looking, especially when it's being waved around in an intimidating manner. That's why they fit the bright orange plastic tip, in this case the tip had been removed to make it look real. It was the kids fault plain and simple.... Okay
Sarah x
Still not willing or able to put across a valid point I see. .
I would say that using your own argument over training, that surely a highly trained, highly skilled fully grown man with bullet proof jacket, and a variety of weapons including the option of backup, should surely be able to curtail a 12 year old who's untrained and is "waiving" his weapon around randomly without having to shoot him dead instantly.
You've watched too many movies I'm afraid.....
I rarely watch them I'm afraid but if your saying it wouldn't make a difference?.... Then why bother training them then!
It's not just about target practice, it's also about assessing personal risk, risk to others and several other factors. Could the officer have tried a wounding shot? Yes, he could possibly have but what was behind the target had he missed or the round overpenetrated? Could that stray round have gone in to kill an innocent child?
What if the gun was real and the wounding shot only caused the offender to open fire and possibly kill or wound several other people?
The choice to shoot and kill someone isn't something taken lightly but in most cases it's necessary as a wounding shot is probably more dangerous..
Yes I heard it said before that a wounded animal is more dangerous!
I'd say seriously shoot them in the leg or the shin and come back and tell me it isn't debilitating.
It often isn't..
One minute you say guns are deadly and this kid had to be taken out and next your saying you can shoot people all over without being killed.
Make your mind up!
Guns are deadly. It's often a lottery whether a bullet will kill you or not. Would you like to take that chance? Would you like your kids to take that chance?.
Nope that's why I would approve of a blanket ban.
And police officers facing the same court as any other citizen to examine the evidence before proclaiming justification.
Would your blanket ban also rely on the good faith of criminals to hand over their weapons too?
It would be great to live in a utopian society where everyone was nice to each other and we all went to work riding unicorns but sadly the world just isn't like that.
This kid did something incredibly stupid and tragically paid the ultimate price for it. I'm sure the cop that shot him feels pretty damned awful about it too.". What difference does the criminals having guns make, have you got one under your bed ready to defend, what if your in the shower when they sneak in.. Got one hidden in the shower too, loaded ready to go... Or for your children to find and play shoot each other? , yes plenty do and plenty get their kid killed with that stupid philosophy. It's funny when ever you mention banning guns peoples first reaction is, ohhh yeah that would be great in a utopian society blah blah, well we will never get anywhere close to that society while we all run round shooting each other will we firstly and secondly, we ban drugs, and criminals still take it, should we use that same philosophy.. Well criminals take heroin I should. The same philosophy with rape, bank robberies, fraud, I mean their all doing it, should we. I'm sure there's plenty of great police officers but I'm also sure there's plenty of rotten ones. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, why would we think that when we hand great power to the police( which is what we do) they wouldn't misuse it, knowing that it's there and will corrupt even a good person eventually, surely the rules governing police should be even tighter than those that govern us, but unfortunately it's the polar opposite. | |||
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"the John Stalker comment earlier what a load of bollocks. You do not shoot to wound if you shoot they teach you to fire single aimed shots at the centre of the body = incapacitated or dead. if the US policeman said put your hands up and the boy went for his gun it's one on one the cop wants to go home to his wife and kids. this one was a mistake, well shit happens! The local state legeslator wants all toy guns to be completely orange not just the end of the barrel. what happens when the local lowlife paint their gun orange and the cop hesitates and is killed?? " . I suggest you look at the official government enquiry which found there was in their words a"shoot to kill policy" in northern Ireland. | |||
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"Question I have to ask is how realistic was the fake gun I know when I was a boy toy guns were black or grey to look real but now they are bright orange and blues to avoid exactly this mistake I've seen pictures of guns similar to the one the child's said to have had. It looks quite fake Sarah x You simply cannot tell that from looking, especially when it's being waved around in an intimidating manner. That's why they fit the bright orange plastic tip, in this case the tip had been removed to make it look real. It was the kids fault plain and simple.... Okay
Sarah x
Still not willing or able to put across a valid point I see. .
I would say that using your own argument over training, that surely a highly trained, highly skilled fully grown man with bullet proof jacket, and a variety of weapons including the option of backup, should surely be able to curtail a 12 year old who's untrained and is "waiving" his weapon around randomly without having to shoot him dead instantly.
You've watched too many movies I'm afraid.....
I rarely watch them I'm afraid but if your saying it wouldn't make a difference?.... Then why bother training them then!
It's not just about target practice, it's also about assessing personal risk, risk to others and several other factors. Could the officer have tried a wounding shot? Yes, he could possibly have but what was behind the target had he missed or the round overpenetrated? Could that stray round have gone in to kill an innocent child?
What if the gun was real and the wounding shot only caused the offender to open fire and possibly kill or wound several other people?
The choice to shoot and kill someone isn't something taken lightly but in most cases it's necessary as a wounding shot is probably more dangerous..
Yes I heard it said before that a wounded animal is more dangerous!
I'd say seriously shoot them in the leg or the shin and come back and tell me it isn't debilitating.
It often isn't..
One minute you say guns are deadly and this kid had to be taken out and next your saying you can shoot people all over without being killed.
Make your mind up!
Guns are deadly. It's often a lottery whether a bullet will kill you or not. Would you like to take that chance? Would you like your kids to take that chance?.
Nope that's why I would approve of a blanket ban.
And police officers facing the same court as any other citizen to examine the evidence before proclaiming justification.
Would your blanket ban also rely on the good faith of criminals to hand over their weapons too?
It would be great to live in a utopian society where everyone was nice to each other and we all went to work riding unicorns but sadly the world just isn't like that.
This kid did something incredibly stupid and tragically paid the ultimate price for it. I'm sure the cop that shot him feels pretty damned awful about it too."Just been on news that the kid was brandishing the "weapon" at passers by and scaring them. As reported by the 911 call to the police. He knew what he was doing, he was scaring people and unfortunately paid the price. Play with fire you will get burnt. Yes its a shame but he brought it on himself by HIS actions not the policeman's. | |||
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"Question I have to ask is how realistic was the fake gun I know when I was a boy toy guns were black or grey to look real but now they are bright orange and blues to avoid exactly this mistake I've seen pictures of guns similar to the one the child's said to have had. It looks quite fake Sarah x You simply cannot tell that from looking, especially when it's being waved around in an intimidating manner. That's why they fit the bright orange plastic tip, in this case the tip had been removed to make it look real. It was the kids fault plain and simple.... Okay
Sarah x
Still not willing or able to put across a valid point I see. .
I would say that using your own argument over training, that surely a highly trained, highly skilled fully grown man with bullet proof jacket, and a variety of weapons including the option of backup, should surely be able to curtail a 12 year old who's untrained and is "waiving" his weapon around randomly without having to shoot him dead instantly.
You've watched too many movies I'm afraid.....
I rarely watch them I'm afraid but if your saying it wouldn't make a difference?.... Then why bother training them then!
It's not just about target practice, it's also about assessing personal risk, risk to others and several other factors. Could the officer have tried a wounding shot? Yes, he could possibly have but what was behind the target had he missed or the round overpenetrated? Could that stray round have gone in to kill an innocent child?
What if the gun was real and the wounding shot only caused the offender to open fire and possibly kill or wound several other people?
The choice to shoot and kill someone isn't something taken lightly but in most cases it's necessary as a wounding shot is probably more dangerous..
Yes I heard it said before that a wounded animal is more dangerous!
I'd say seriously shoot them in the leg or the shin and come back and tell me it isn't debilitating.
It often isn't..
One minute you say guns are deadly and this kid had to be taken out and next your saying you can shoot people all over without being killed.
Make your mind up!
Guns are deadly. It's often a lottery whether a bullet will kill you or not. Would you like to take that chance? Would you like your kids to take that chance?.
Nope that's why I would approve of a blanket ban.
And police officers facing the same court as any other citizen to examine the evidence before proclaiming justification.
Would your blanket ban also rely on the good faith of criminals to hand over their weapons too?
It would be great to live in a utopian society where everyone was nice to each other and we all went to work riding unicorns but sadly the world just isn't like that.
This kid did something incredibly stupid and tragically paid the ultimate price for it. I'm sure the cop that shot him feels pretty damned awful about it too.
Just been on news that the kid was brandishing the "weapon" at passers by and scaring them. As reported by the 911 call to the police. He knew what he was doing, he was scaring people and unfortunately paid the price. Play with fire you will get burnt. Yes its a shame but he brought it on himself by HIS actions not the policeman's. ". How utterly childish of him.. | |||
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"Question I have to ask is how realistic was the fake gun I know when I was a boy toy guns were black or grey to look real but now they are bright orange and blues to avoid exactly this mistake I've seen pictures of guns similar to the one the child's said to have had. It looks quite fake Sarah x" It was a REPLICA gun. Look up the word replica in a dictionary...it looked EXACTLY like the real thing. It should have an orange tip so you can tell them apart. The kid had removed this so that it looked just like a real one...presumably  so he could frighten people. That worked...so he got shot when he pulled it on a police officer! | |||
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"The moral of the story don't carry a replica firearm and stop trying to be a gangster. Sorry guys not gonna join the tree hugger brigade, it's simple play by the rules and you won't get shot." . Last time I looked carrying a replica gun in Cleveland wasn't against the rules. | |||
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"What I can't believe is that as a kid I ran round with pretty realistic toy guns, not only me but every kid on my street, and there was quite few of us that were quite unruly (not me obviously). According to some on this thread at least 12 of us aged between 6 and 13 years old,should have quite rightly been shot dead and it would have served us right for waiving our toy guns around and acting like children. And all because we had never had that marvellous parent that had managed to instill some decent weaponry training into us "I also had toy guns. My dad had a firearm certificate and real guns (which I was taught to use and did so supervised). There was sod all similarity between them. Cap guns as we used to play with we're in no way similar to the Colt Peacemaker, Luger, Navy Colt and other real guns my dad owned | |||
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"Question I have to ask is how realistic was the fake gun I know when I was a boy toy guns were black or grey to look real but now they are bright orange and blues to avoid exactly this mistake I've seen pictures of guns similar to the one the child's said to have had. It looks quite fake Sarah x It was a REPLICA gun. Look up the word replica in a dictionary...it looked EXACTLY like the real thing. It should have an orange tip so you can tell them apart. The kid had removed this so that it looked just like a real one...presumably so he could frighten people. That worked...so he got shot when he pulled it on a police officer!". I just checked Ohio has a concealed weapons policy. You can legally carry a real gun. | |||
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"What I can't believe is that as a kid I ran round with pretty realistic toy guns, not only me but every kid on my street, and there was quite few of us that were quite unruly (not me obviously). According to some on this thread at least 12 of us aged between 6 and 13 years old,should have quite rightly been shot dead and it would have served us right for waiving our toy guns around and acting like children. And all because we had never had that marvellous parent that had managed to instill some decent weaponry training into us
I also had toy guns. My dad had a firearm certificate and real guns (which I was taught to use and did so supervised). There was sod all similarity between them. Cap guns as we used to play with we're in no way similar to the Colt Peacemaker, Luger, Navy Colt and other real guns my dad owned". I had a replica 357 magnum cap gun. You couldn't tell it from the real thing at 20ft | |||
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"Just moving away slightly the fact he was a 12 year old child has nothing to do with it. My friend a policeman 6ft 3 had a garden rake put in his head by a 14year old boy the only thing my mate did wrong was turn his back. Who would have known the kid was not doing the gardening after all. True story he now walks with a limp and has speech difficulties and obviously does not work and support his family anymore." .a tragedy indeed, but I presume a tragedy he got into the police force in full knowledge of. Do you think that police should now shoot all gardeners on site just in case from now on. | |||
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"The moral of the story don't carry a replica firearm and stop trying to be a gangster. Sorry guys not gonna join the tree hugger brigade, it's simple play by the rules and you won't get shot.. Last time I looked carrying a replica gun in Cleveland wasn't against the rules." Probably not. But scaring passers by most likely is. Christ at 12 I knew waving a fake gun at anyone was pig stupid. I'm pretty sure he did too, doesn't make it any less tragic but we should stop making excuses for idiots and blaming the poor people who end up making a split second decision. As I said his stupidity , call it childish if you wish, horrifically got himself shot. | |||
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"Just moving away slightly the fact he was a 12 year old child has nothing to do with it. My friend a policeman 6ft 3 had a garden rake put in his head by a 14year old boy the only thing my mate did wrong was turn his back. Who would have known the kid was not doing the gardening after all. True story he now walks with a limp and has speech difficulties and obviously does not work and support his family anymore..a tragedy indeed, but I presume a tragedy he got into the police force in full knowledge of. Do you think that police should now shoot all gardeners on site just in case from now on." Nah just the nutter ones that are trying to stick something sharp inside your body. Come on ......... | |||
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"Just moving away slightly the fact he was a 12 year old child has nothing to do with it. My friend a policeman 6ft 3 had a garden rake put in his head by a 14year old boy the only thing my mate did wrong was turn his back. Who would have known the kid was not doing the gardening after all. True story he now walks with a limp and has speech difficulties and obviously does not work and support his family anymore..a tragedy indeed, but I presume a tragedy he got into the police force in full knowledge of. Do you think that police should now shoot all gardeners on site just in case from now on." I am sure he did join the force in the thought his life would change forever due to a garden rake. Sorry was that the impression you for from my thread that all gardeners should be shot on sight because if it is maybe you need to stop reading andy mcnab books. Just saying police have a very difficult job and armchair critics that have never face danger in their life are quick to winge. | |||
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"The moral of the story don't carry a replica firearm and stop trying to be a gangster. Sorry guys not gonna join the tree hugger brigade, it's simple play by the rules and you won't get shot.. Last time I looked carrying a replica gun in Cleveland wasn't against the rules. Probably not. But scaring passers by most likely is. Christ at 12 I knew waving a fake gun at anyone was pig stupid. I'm pretty sure he did too, doesn't make it any less tragic but we should stop making excuses for idiots and blaming the poor people who end up making a split second decision. As I said his stupidity , call it childish if you wish, horrifically got himself shot. " .According to the BBC the person who phoned the police said it was probably a fake and he was probably a junior. No gun shots fired, no intentions or threats made, no attempted robberies or muggings just a child waving a replica gun about. | |||
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"Just moving away slightly the fact he was a 12 year old child has nothing to do with it. My friend a policeman 6ft 3 had a garden rake put in his head by a 14year old boy the only thing my mate did wrong was turn his back. Who would have known the kid was not doing the gardening after all. True story he now walks with a limp and has speech difficulties and obviously does not work and support his family anymore..a tragedy indeed, but I presume a tragedy he got into the police force in full knowledge of. Do you think that police should now shoot all gardeners on site just in case from now on. Nah just the nutter ones that are trying to stick something sharp inside your body. Come on ........." I think maybe trying to get a rise out of me,forgot I had to state the obvious. | |||
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"What I can't believe is that as a kid I ran round with pretty realistic toy guns, not only me but every kid on my street, and there was quite few of us that were quite unruly (not me obviously). According to some on this thread at least 12 of us aged between 6 and 13 years old,should have quite rightly been shot dead and it would have served us right for waiving our toy guns around and acting like children. And all because we had never had that marvellous parent that had managed to instill some decent weaponry training into us
I also had toy guns. My dad had a firearm certificate and real guns (which I was taught to use and did so supervised). There was sod all similarity between them. Cap guns as we used to play with we're in no way similar to the Colt Peacemaker, Luger, Navy Colt and other real guns my dad owned" | |||
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"The moral of the story don't carry a replica firearm and stop trying to be a gangster. Sorry guys not gonna join the tree hugger brigade, it's simple play by the rules and you won't get shot.. Last time I looked carrying a replica gun in Cleveland wasn't against the rules. Probably not. But scaring passers by most likely is. Christ at 12 I knew waving a fake gun at anyone was pig stupid. I'm pretty sure he did too, doesn't make it any less tragic but we should stop making excuses for idiots and blaming the poor people who end up making a split second decision. As I said his stupidity , call it childish if you wish, horrifically got himself shot. .According to the BBC the person who phoned the police said it was probably a fake and he was probably a junior. No gun shots fired, no intentions or threats made, no attempted robberies or muggings just a child waving a replica gun about." A person waving a gun around that when challenged did not place it on the ground, now in America they should know better, in UK he may well have got the benifit of the doubt. All needless deaths are a shame, I no way saying it's a happy story. | |||
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"Just moving away slightly the fact he was a 12 year old child has nothing to do with it. My friend a policeman 6ft 3 had a garden rake put in his head by a 14year old boy the only thing my mate did wrong was turn his back. Who would have known the kid was not doing the gardening after all. True story he now walks with a limp and has speech difficulties and obviously does not work and support his family anymore..a tragedy indeed, but I presume a tragedy he got into the police force in full knowledge of. Do you think that police should now shoot all gardeners on site just in case from now on. I am sure he did join the force in the thought his life would change forever due to a garden rake. Sorry was that the impression you for from my thread that all gardeners should be shot on sight because if it is maybe you need to stop reading andy mcnab books. Just saying police have a very difficult job and armchair critics that have never face danger in their life are quick to winge." .So because I've never been a police officer ,I can't complain about their actions. Have you ever been a binman... What no!. Well stop complaining about your rubbish removal. I've never been a dentist or a airline pilot either, shall I shut the fuck up if my pilot crashes while in a blind panic or my dentist pulls the wrong tooth out. | |||
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"The moral of the story don't carry a replica firearm and stop trying to be a gangster. Sorry guys not gonna join the tree hugger brigade, it's simple play by the rules and you won't get shot.. Last time I looked carrying a replica gun in Cleveland wasn't against the rules. Probably not. But scaring passers by most likely is. Christ at 12 I knew waving a fake gun at anyone was pig stupid. I'm pretty sure he did too, doesn't make it any less tragic but we should stop making excuses for idiots and blaming the poor people who end up making a split second decision. As I said his stupidity , call it childish if you wish, horrifically got himself shot. .According to the BBC the person who phoned the police said it was probably a fake and he was probably a junior. No gun shots fired, no intentions or threats made, no attempted robberies or muggings just a child waving a replica gun about." OK sample out some facts to back yourself up. However the news 5 mins ago ALSO reported that the caller said clearly that he was scaring/frightening/intimidating passers by with what MIGHT be a fake gun. Full disclosure can show two sides to any story including the armchair warriors... | |||
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"Just moving away slightly the fact he was a 12 year old child has nothing to do with it. My friend a policeman 6ft 3 had a garden rake put in his head by a 14year old boy the only thing my mate did wrong was turn his back. Who would have known the kid was not doing the gardening after all. True story he now walks with a limp and has speech difficulties and obviously does not work and support his family anymore..a tragedy indeed, but I presume a tragedy he got into the police force in full knowledge of. Do you think that police should now shoot all gardeners on site just in case from now on. I am sure he did join the force in the thought his life would change forever due to a garden rake. Sorry was that the impression you for from my thread that all gardeners should be shot on sight because if it is maybe you need to stop reading andy mcnab books. Just saying police have a very difficult job and armchair critics that have never face danger in their life are quick to winge..So because I've never been a police officer ,I can't complain about their actions. Have you ever been a binman... What no!. Well stop complaining about your rubbish removal. I've never been a dentist or a airline pilot either, shall I shut the fuck up if my pilot crashes while in a blind panic or my dentist pulls the wrong tooth out." Not the same at all I can complain about a bin man or a police man but I can't be in their shoes my sister is a police women in Austraila my brother does stuff with the police and the guys in America lost 27 of their fellow policemen to being shot , I have not bothered to look but I would hazard a guess that at least 5 of them were to children under the age of 16 | |||
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"Kids have become so complacent about guns and carrying them these days that it's scary. But if he was carrying it and pointing it at people and the officers gave him a fair and clear warning that he didn't listen to then it's his fault. " | |||
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"Just moving away slightly the fact he was a 12 year old child has nothing to do with it. My friend a policeman 6ft 3 had a garden rake put in his head by a 14year old boy the only thing my mate did wrong was turn his back. Who would have known the kid was not doing the gardening after all. True story he now walks with a limp and has speech difficulties and obviously does not work and support his family anymore..a tragedy indeed, but I presume a tragedy he got into the police force in full knowledge of. Do you think that police should now shoot all gardeners on site just in case from now on. I am sure he did join the force in the thought his life would change forever due to a garden rake. Sorry was that the impression you for from my thread that all gardeners should be shot on sight because if it is maybe you need to stop reading andy mcnab books. Just saying police have a very difficult job and armchair critics that have never face danger in their life are quick to winge..So because I've never been a police officer ,I can't complain about their actions. Have you ever been a binman... What no!. Well stop complaining about your rubbish removal. I've never been a dentist or a airline pilot either, shall I shut the fuck up if my pilot crashes while in a blind panic or my dentist pulls the wrong tooth out." Not the same at all I can complain about a bin man or a police man but I can't be in their shoes my sister is a police women in Austraila and has a gun my brother does stuff with the police and the guys in America lost 27 of their fellow policemen to being shot , I have not bothered to look but I would hazard a guess that at least 5 of them were to children under the age of 16 | |||
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" sexy-bum: ..So because I've never been a police officer ,I can't complain about their actions. Have you ever been a binman... What no!. Well stop complaining about your rubbish removal. I've never been a dentist or a airline pilot either, shall I shut the fuck up if my pilot crashes while in a blind panic or my dentist pulls the wrong tooth out." I don’t think anyone is saying that we don’t have the right to question what the police do, any more than we would say you don’t have the right to question what your doctor, dentist , airline pilot or any other person does to you in in your name. But we, while rightly questioning what actually happened in this instance, also have to accept the facts. I’m not going to go through them again, you already know them. The question is, not knowing that the gun was a replica, how was the policeman meant to act in order to ensure both his safety and the safety of other innocent people who were in the vicinity? | |||
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" sexy-bum: ..So because I've never been a police officer ,I can't complain about their actions. Have you ever been a binman... What no!. Well stop complaining about your rubbish removal. I've never been a dentist or a airline pilot either, shall I shut the fuck up if my pilot crashes while in a blind panic or my dentist pulls the wrong tooth out. I don’t think anyone is saying that we don’t have the right to question what the police do, any more than we would say you don’t have the right to question what your doctor, dentist , airline pilot or any other person does to you in in your name. But we, while rightly questioning what actually happened in this instance, also have to accept the facts. I’m not going to go through them again, you already know them. The question is, not knowing that the gun was a replica, how was the policeman meant to act in order to ensure both his safety and the safety of other innocent people who were in the vicinity? " Sorta sums it up in a but shell, till next time. | |||
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"The moral of the story don't carry a replica firearm and stop trying to be a gangster. Sorry guys not gonna join the tree hugger brigade, it's simple play by the rules and you won't get shot.. Last time I looked carrying a replica gun in Cleveland wasn't against the rules. Probably not. But scaring passers by most likely is. Christ at 12 I knew waving a fake gun at anyone was pig stupid. I'm pretty sure he did too, doesn't make it any less tragic but we should stop making excuses for idiots and blaming the poor people who end up making a split second decision. As I said his stupidity , call it childish if you wish, horrifically got himself shot. .According to the BBC the person who phoned the police said it was probably a fake and he was probably a junior. No gun shots fired, no intentions or threats made, no attempted robberies or muggings just a child waving a replica gun about. OK sample out some facts to back yourself up. However the news 5 mins ago ALSO reported that the caller said clearly that he was scaring/frightening/intimidating passers by with what MIGHT be a fake gun. Full disclosure can show two sides to any story including the armchair warriors..." . I'm a concerned citizen raising important questions about those that we employ to uphold our laws. It's a tough job that is not for everyone but then again no ones forced into it and your rewarded well with good pay and pensions. If a court of law finds this officer not culpable then that is how the system works. I like being an arm chair warrior sometimes I do it in the real world too. | |||
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"The moral of the story don't carry a replica firearm and stop trying to be a gangster. Sorry guys not gonna join the tree hugger brigade, it's simple play by the rules and you won't get shot.. Last time I looked carrying a replica gun in Cleveland wasn't against the rules. Probably not. But scaring passers by most likely is. Christ at 12 I knew waving a fake gun at anyone was pig stupid. I'm pretty sure he did too, doesn't make it any less tragic but we should stop making excuses for idiots and blaming the poor people who end up making a split second decision. As I said his stupidity , call it childish if you wish, horrifically got himself shot. .According to the BBC the person who phoned the police said it was probably a fake and he was probably a junior. No gun shots fired, no intentions or threats made, no attempted robberies or muggings just a child waving a replica gun about. OK sample out some facts to back yourself up. However the news 5 mins ago ALSO reported that the caller said clearly that he was scaring/frightening/intimidating passers by with what MIGHT be a fake gun. Full disclosure can show two sides to any story including the armchair warriors.... I'm a concerned citizen raising important questions about those that we employ to uphold our laws. It's a tough job that is not for everyone but then again no ones forced into it and your rewarded well with good pay and pensions. If a court of law finds this officer not culpable then that is how the system works. I like being an arm chair warrior sometimes I do it in the real world too." That I get completely, what I don't get is why you conveniently leave some facts out if they don't suit your argument. Peace out | |||
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"The moral of the story don't carry a replica firearm and stop trying to be a gangster. Sorry guys not gonna join the tree hugger brigade, it's simple play by the rules and you won't get shot.. Last time I looked carrying a replica gun in Cleveland wasn't against the rules. Probably not. But scaring passers by most likely is. Christ at 12 I knew waving a fake gun at anyone was pig stupid. I'm pretty sure he did too, doesn't make it any less tragic but we should stop making excuses for idiots and blaming the poor people who end up making a split second decision. As I said his stupidity , call it childish if you wish, horrifically got himself shot. .According to the BBC the person who phoned the police said it was probably a fake and he was probably a junior. No gun shots fired, no intentions or threats made, no attempted robberies or muggings just a child waving a replica gun about. OK sample out some facts to back yourself up. However the news 5 mins ago ALSO reported that the caller said clearly that he was scaring/frightening/intimidating passers by with what MIGHT be a fake gun. Full disclosure can show two sides to any story including the armchair warriors.... I'm a concerned citizen raising important questions about those that we employ to uphold our laws. It's a tough job that is not for everyone but then again no ones forced into it and your rewarded well with good pay and pensions. If a court of law finds this officer not culpable then that is how the system works. I like being an arm chair warrior sometimes I do it in the real world too." I have 8mins left so the last time you had a gun pointed at you what did you do ? Or if this has not happened to you what would you do? If a court of law finds the policeman guilty then off to prison he must go, but from what I can see they probably followed their rules of engagement the US is a crazy place | |||
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"sexy-bum I'm a concerned citizen raising important questions about those that we employ to uphold our laws. " It's totally right that you should question them. But it's also totally right that, as the facts become know, you should not excuse those who have done wrong or malign those who have done their duty. | |||
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"sexy-bum I'm a concerned citizen raising important questions about those that we employ to uphold our laws. It's totally right that you should question them. But it's also totally right that, as the facts become know, you should not excuse those who have done wrong or malign those who have done their duty. " | |||
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"sexy-bum I'm a concerned citizen raising important questions about those that we employ to uphold our laws. It's totally right that you should question them. But it's also totally right that, as the facts become know, you should not excuse those who have done wrong or malign those who have done their duty. " | |||
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"The moral of the story don't carry a replica firearm and stop trying to be a gangster. Sorry guys not gonna join the tree hugger brigade, it's simple play by the rules and you won't get shot.. Last time I looked carrying a replica gun in Cleveland wasn't against the rules. Probably not. But scaring passers by most likely is. Christ at 12 I knew waving a fake gun at anyone was pig stupid. I'm pretty sure he did too, doesn't make it any less tragic but we should stop making excuses for idiots and blaming the poor people who end up making a split second decision. As I said his stupidity , call it childish if you wish, horrifically got himself shot. .According to the BBC the person who phoned the police said it was probably a fake and he was probably a junior. No gun shots fired, no intentions or threats made, no attempted robberies or muggings just a child waving a replica gun about. OK sample out some facts to back yourself up. However the news 5 mins ago ALSO reported that the caller said clearly that he was scaring/frightening/intimidating passers by with what MIGHT be a fake gun. Full disclosure can show two sides to any story including the armchair warriors.... I'm a concerned citizen raising important questions about those that we employ to uphold our laws. It's a tough job that is not for everyone but then again no ones forced into it and your rewarded well with good pay and pensions. If a court of law finds this officer not culpable then that is how the system works. I like being an arm chair warrior sometimes I do it in the real world too. That I get completely, what I don't get is why you conveniently leave some facts out if they don't suit your argument. Peace out ". What facts were they! sorry I was busy bashing bankers on another thread | |||
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"The moral of the story don't carry a replica firearm and stop trying to be a gangster. Sorry guys not gonna join the tree hugger brigade, it's simple play by the rules and you won't get shot.. Last time I looked carrying a replica gun in Cleveland wasn't against the rules. Probably not. But scaring passers by most likely is. Christ at 12 I knew waving a fake gun at anyone was pig stupid. I'm pretty sure he did too, doesn't make it any less tragic but we should stop making excuses for idiots and blaming the poor people who end up making a split second decision. As I said his stupidity , call it childish if you wish, horrifically got himself shot. .According to the BBC the person who phoned the police said it was probably a fake and he was probably a junior. No gun shots fired, no intentions or threats made, no attempted robberies or muggings just a child waving a replica gun about. OK sample out some facts to back yourself up. However the news 5 mins ago ALSO reported that the caller said clearly that he was scaring/frightening/intimidating passers by with what MIGHT be a fake gun. Full disclosure can show two sides to any story including the armchair warriors.... I'm a concerned citizen raising important questions about those that we employ to uphold our laws. It's a tough job that is not for everyone but then again no ones forced into it and your rewarded well with good pay and pensions. If a court of law finds this officer not culpable then that is how the system works. I like being an arm chair warrior sometimes I do it in the real world too. That I get completely, what I don't get is why you conveniently leave some facts out if they don't suit your argument. Peace out .
What facts were they! sorry I was busy bashing bankers on another thread "Please bash bankers till your hearts content. I would join you. At the risk of drawing this out even further and risking people jumping off bridges........ The fact that the lad was threatening people with the replica gun and scaring them, also reported by the caller to 911 .........just to add some balance ....... | |||
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"The moral of the story don't carry a replica firearm and stop trying to be a gangster. Sorry guys not gonna join the tree hugger brigade, it's simple play by the rules and you won't get shot.. Last time I looked carrying a replica gun in Cleveland wasn't against the rules. Probably not. But scaring passers by most likely is. Christ at 12 I knew waving a fake gun at anyone was pig stupid. I'm pretty sure he did too, doesn't make it any less tragic but we should stop making excuses for idiots and blaming the poor people who end up making a split second decision. As I said his stupidity , call it childish if you wish, horrifically got himself shot. .According to the BBC the person who phoned the police said it was probably a fake and he was probably a junior. No gun shots fired, no intentions or threats made, no attempted robberies or muggings just a child waving a replica gun about. OK sample out some facts to back yourself up. However the news 5 mins ago ALSO reported that the caller said clearly that he was scaring/frightening/intimidating passers by with what MIGHT be a fake gun. Full disclosure can show two sides to any story including the armchair warriors.... I'm a concerned citizen raising important questions about those that we employ to uphold our laws. It's a tough job that is not for everyone but then again no ones forced into it and your rewarded well with good pay and pensions. If a court of law finds this officer not culpable then that is how the system works. I like being an arm chair warrior sometimes I do it in the real world too. That I get completely, what I don't get is why you conveniently leave some facts out if they don't suit your argument. Peace out .
What facts were they! sorry I was busy bashing bankers on another thread
Please bash bankers till your hearts content. I would join you. At the risk of drawing this out even further and risking people jumping off bridges........ The fact that the lad was threatening people with the replica gun and scaring them, also reported by the caller to 911 .........just to add some balance ......."..Ah lol well hopefully (or maybe not) I'm not jumping off just yet. I quoted what I read on the BBC that the man who reported it said twice that he thought it was a replica and once that he thought he was underage, he said he was frightening and intimidating passes by, to which I added that he didn't say he had verbally threatened anybody but had waived his fake gun at them!. But seen as were taking about people missing out facts.. Somebody stated that the police have to be wary about high speed rounds passing through the victim and hitting innocent passers by, but they didn't mention that Cleveland police are currently being investigated for a high speed chase where they killed two people and fired 136 rounds? | |||
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"The moral of the story don't carry a replica firearm and stop trying to be a gangster. Sorry guys not gonna join the tree hugger brigade, it's simple play by the rules and you won't get shot.. Last time I looked carrying a replica gun in Cleveland wasn't against the rules. Probably not. But scaring passers by most likely is. Christ at 12 I knew waving a fake gun at anyone was pig stupid. I'm pretty sure he did too, doesn't make it any less tragic but we should stop making excuses for idiots and blaming the poor people who end up making a split second decision. As I said his stupidity , call it childish if you wish, horrifically got himself shot. .According to the BBC the person who phoned the police said it was probably a fake and he was probably a junior. No gun shots fired, no intentions or threats made, no attempted robberies or muggings just a child waving a replica gun about. OK sample out some facts to back yourself up. However the news 5 mins ago ALSO reported that the caller said clearly that he was scaring/frightening/intimidating passers by with what MIGHT be a fake gun. Full disclosure can show two sides to any story including the armchair warriors.... I'm a concerned citizen raising important questions about those that we employ to uphold our laws. It's a tough job that is not for everyone but then again no ones forced into it and your rewarded well with good pay and pensions. If a court of law finds this officer not culpable then that is how the system works. I like being an arm chair warrior sometimes I do it in the real world too. That I get completely, what I don't get is why you conveniently leave some facts out if they don't suit your argument. Peace out .
What facts were they! sorry I was busy bashing bankers on another thread
Please bash bankers till your hearts content. I would join you. At the risk of drawing this out even further and risking people jumping off bridges........ The fact that the lad was threatening people with the replica gun and scaring them, also reported by the caller to 911 .........just to add some balance .........Ah lol well hopefully (or maybe not) I'm not jumping off just yet.
I quoted what I read on the BBC that the man who reported it said twice that he thought it was a replica and once that he thought he was underage, he said he was frightening and intimidating passes by, to which I added that he didn't say he had verbally threatened anybody but had waived his fake gun at them!.
But seen as were taking about people missing out facts.. Somebody stated that the police have to be wary about high speed rounds passing through the victim and hitting innocent passers by, but they didn't mention that Cleveland police are currently being investigated for a high speed chase where they killed two people and fired 136 rounds?"At the risk of being pedantic.......waved his "potentially" fake gun at them. But to compare different officers in a different situation to try to demonstrate that officers " guilt" is a bit misguided. That's like saying all the police in the UK are in the wrong in every situation due to the actions of say the officer that shot the guy in his car in Manchester or those that shot the Brazilian guy in London . nah. Not buying that one. Anyway calling it a night as its becoming a bit tit for tat. Let's agree to differ in opinion, I'm right your wrong. Joking | |||
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"The moral of the story don't carry a replica firearm and stop trying to be a gangster. Sorry guys not gonna join the tree hugger brigade, it's simple play by the rules and you won't get shot.. Last time I looked carrying a replica gun in Cleveland wasn't against the rules. Probably not. But scaring passers by most likely is. Christ at 12 I knew waving a fake gun at anyone was pig stupid. I'm pretty sure he did too, doesn't make it any less tragic but we should stop making excuses for idiots and blaming the poor people who end up making a split second decision. As I said his stupidity , call it childish if you wish, horrifically got himself shot. .According to the BBC the person who phoned the police said it was probably a fake and he was probably a junior. No gun shots fired, no intentions or threats made, no attempted robberies or muggings just a child waving a replica gun about. OK sample out some facts to back yourself up. However the news 5 mins ago ALSO reported that the caller said clearly that he was scaring/frightening/intimidating passers by with what MIGHT be a fake gun. Full disclosure can show two sides to any story including the armchair warriors.... I'm a concerned citizen raising important questions about those that we employ to uphold our laws. It's a tough job that is not for everyone but then again no ones forced into it and your rewarded well with good pay and pensions. If a court of law finds this officer not culpable then that is how the system works. I like being an arm chair warrior sometimes I do it in the real world too. That I get completely, what I don't get is why you conveniently leave some facts out if they don't suit your argument. Peace out .
What facts were they! sorry I was busy bashing bankers on another thread
Please bash bankers till your hearts content. I would join you. At the risk of drawing this out even further and risking people jumping off bridges........ The fact that the lad was threatening people with the replica gun and scaring them, also reported by the caller to 911 .........just to add some balance .........Ah lol well hopefully (or maybe not) I'm not jumping off just yet.
I quoted what I read on the BBC that the man who reported it said twice that he thought it was a replica and once that he thought he was underage, he said he was frightening and intimidating passes by, to which I added that he didn't say he had verbally threatened anybody but had waived his fake gun at them!.
But seen as were taking about people missing out facts.. Somebody stated that the police have to be wary about high speed rounds passing through the victim and hitting innocent passers by, but they didn't mention that Cleveland police are currently being investigated for a high speed chase where they killed two people and fired 136 rounds?
At the risk of being pedantic.......waved his "potentially" fake gun at them. But to compare different officers in a different situation to try to demonstrate that officers " guilt" is a bit misguided. That's like saying all the police in the UK are in the wrong in every situation due to the actions of say the officer that shot the guy in his car in Manchester or those that shot the Brazilian guy in London . nah. Not buying that one. Anyway calling it a night as its becoming a bit tit for tat. Let's agree to differ in opinion, I'm right your wrong. Joking "ooh don't get me started on Jean Charles and his wire hanging out of his pockets . Tara | |||
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"The moral of the story don't carry a replica firearm and stop trying to be a gangster. Sorry guys not gonna join the tree hugger brigade, it's simple play by the rules and you won't get shot.. Last time I looked carrying a replica gun in Cleveland wasn't against the rules. Probably not. But scaring passers by most likely is. Christ at 12 I knew waving a fake gun at anyone was pig stupid. I'm pretty sure he did too, doesn't make it any less tragic but we should stop making excuses for idiots and blaming the poor people who end up making a split second decision. As I said his stupidity , call it childish if you wish, horrifically got himself shot. .According to the BBC the person who phoned the police said it was probably a fake and he was probably a junior. No gun shots fired, no intentions or threats made, no attempted robberies or muggings just a child waving a replica gun about." | |||
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"Wow, you guys are getting all worked up over something that doesn't even concern you or your country. But here in the u.s. it's becoming an almost daily thing. The gun looked very realistic. Yes it's was manufactured with a red/orange tip to show its was a bb/pellet/airsoft gun. Yes the red tip was removed. So from a police officers view of 10 to 20 yards as he was told to stop but he reached for the gun which was tucked in his waist band. The police shot and killed him. The way I see it just another future thug/killer/drug dealer taken out. That's why I decided to move away from the big cities to keep my kids and family away from individuals and situations like that." Good post! | |||
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" The way I see it just another future thug/killer/drug dealer taken out. " do people really see it that way? god above help us. | |||
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"Wow, you guys are getting all worked up over something that doesn't even concern you or your country. . ." We can still discuss the subject whether we live there or not. | |||
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" The way I see it just another future thug/killer/drug dealer taken out. do people really see it that way? god above help us." . I think that quote more than any other makes you realise why the states is in so much trouble | |||
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" The way I see it just another future thug/killer/drug dealer taken out. do people really see it that way? god above help us.. I think that quote more than any other makes you realise why the states is in so much trouble "Combined with the rioting on the streets as the policeman who shot an unarmed man will face no charges, you can see that the US needs to fundamentally change its gun laws or continue to see more and more children and adults killed by guns. In a supposedly civilised country it is just crazy. | |||
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" The way I see it just another future thug/killer/drug dealer taken out. do people really see it that way? god above help us.. I think that quote more than any other makes you realise why the states is in so much trouble
Combined with the rioting on the streets as the policeman who shot an unarmed man will face no charges, you can see that the US needs to fundamentally change its gun laws or continue to see more and more children and adults killed by guns. In a supposedly civilised country it is just crazy.".
It's not their God given right, it was a right extended to them by a constitution written in 1776, when there was threat from invasion while they had no army.
And the constitution only provides them the right to bear muskets not ak47.
The only thing keeping it in the constitution is the power of the NRA and the arms manufacturers.
As the fact is the people who actually owns guns even in the US are the minority. | |||
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"The moral of the story don't carry a replica firearm and stop trying to be a gangster. Sorry guys not gonna join the tree hugger brigade, it's simple play by the rules and you won't get shot.. Last time I looked carrying a replica gun in Cleveland wasn't against the rules. Probably not. But scaring passers by most likely is. Christ at 12 I knew waving a fake gun at anyone was pig stupid. I'm pretty sure he did too, doesn't make it any less tragic but we should stop making excuses for idiots and blaming the poor people who end up making a split second decision. As I said his stupidity , call it childish if you wish, horrifically got himself shot. .According to the BBC the person who phoned the police said it was probably a fake and he was probably a junior. No gun shots fired, no intentions or threats made, no attempted robberies or muggings just a child waving a replica gun about." Once again .....rubbish. It was clearly reported the idiot was threatening and scaring people with what might or might not be a fake gun. For gods sake stop altering the evidence . Not for one minute am I saying a child, idiot or not, deserved to die but HE caused it, not the police, HE knew what he was doing. I'm out now as its the same blooming argument being trotted out.  | |||
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" citygentforyou: Combined with the rioting on the streets as the policeman who shot an unarmed man will face no charges, you can see that the US needs to fundamentally change its gun laws or continue to see more and more children and adults killed by guns. In a supposedly civilised country it is just crazy." Since we 'fundamentally' changed our gun laws, back in 1997, when all hand guns were banned, gun crime has increased every year up until recently. It still remains higher than its pre-1997 values. Simplistic solutions seldom produce the desired result. I think it's unlikely that banning them in the US would fundamentally change anything. | |||
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"maintman48 The way I see it just another future thug/killer/drug dealer taken out. " I have to say I am totally shocked that anyone, in all good conscience, could even think, let alone write, such a callous, insensitive and ultimately racist statement. Yes, he might have grown up to be a thug, killer, drug dealer or he might have grown up to be a doctor, dentist, lawyer, leading politician, member of the US armed forces, shop keeper, office clerk, bank teller or anything else. For God sakes, He was a 12 year old kid. He could have turned out to anything, but we'll never know now. If you're really so sure that black kids growing up in that area are going to be crooks or criminal why aren't you doing something about. Or is it OK just to gun them down because 'Nits grow into lice'. I still believe that what the police man did in this instance was correct and the only thing he could do but if that is the attitude of your average US citizen, or even just a large minority of them, it's no wonder that the black community think there is more to it than just a simple tragic shooting. | |||
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" citygentforyou: Combined with the rioting on the streets as the policeman who shot an unarmed man will face no charges, you can see that the US needs to fundamentally change its gun laws or continue to see more and more children and adults killed by guns. In a supposedly civilised country it is just crazy. Since we 'fundamentally' changed our gun laws, back in 1997, when all hand guns were banned, gun crime has increased every year up until recently. It still remains higher than its pre-1997 values. Simplistic solutions seldom produce the desired result. I think it's unlikely that banning them in the US would fundamentally change anything." Rough numbers - UK population - 60m vs 250m in US, c 25% - annual deaths from firearms - UK 146 - US 32350 - c0.4% -  | |||
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" citygentforyou: Combined with the rioting on the streets as the policeman who shot an unarmed man will face no charges, you can see that the US needs to fundamentally change its gun laws or continue to see more and more children and adults killed by guns. In a supposedly civilised country it is just crazy. Since we 'fundamentally' changed our gun laws, back in 1997, when all hand guns were banned, gun crime has increased every year up until recently. It still remains higher than its pre-1997 values. Simplistic solutions seldom produce the desired result. I think it's unlikely that banning them in the US would fundamentally change anything." . I've already wrote that this isn't true, ours have gone up in real terms very slowly compared to similar countries that didn't introduce bans. The combined evidence of the many countries that have restricted firearms is that gun crime fell. Japan after their blanket ban only averages around 2 to 10 gun deaths a year. Australia and Germany and GB all saw net reductions. | |||
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"maintman48 The way I see it just another future thug/killer/drug dealer taken out. I have to say I am totally shocked that anyone, in all good conscience, could even think, let alone write, such a callous, insensitive and ultimately racist statement. Yes, he might have grown up to be a thug, killer, drug dealer or he might have grown up to be a doctor, dentist, lawyer, leading politician, member of the US armed forces, shop keeper, office clerk, bank teller or anything else. For God sakes, He was a 12 year old kid. He could have turned out to anything, but we'll never know now. If you're really so sure that black kids growing up in that area are going to be crooks or criminal why aren't you doing something about. Or is it OK just to gun them down because 'Nits grow into lice'. I still believe that what the police man did in this instance was correct and the only thing he could do but if that is the attitude of your average US citizen, or even just a large minority of them, it's no wonder that the black community think there is more to it than just a simple tragic shooting." While I agree it was a particularly cold and callous statement, I didnt for a second read any racism or bigotry into the post. Maybe people should stop looking for something that isn't there and concentrate on the facts which are: A kid waves a potentially real handgun around in a playground to intimidate and scare people. That kid is told twice to put the possibly real weapon on the ground by clearly identified police officers with definitely real guns. The kid ignores those instructions and continues to brandish the potentially real gun. The kid is shot twice and fatally wounded. The weapon then turns out to be a realistic replica that had been modified to look even more real. Truly a tragic event, but totally avoidable if the kid followed instructions or maybe used common sense and didn't alter the appearance of his toy in the first place. The whole race issue shouldn't EVER come into it. | |||
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"maintman48 The way I see it just another future thug/killer/drug dealer taken out. I have to say I am totally shocked that anyone, in all good conscience, could even think, let alone write, such a callous, insensitive and ultimately racist statement. Yes, he might have grown up to be a thug, killer, drug dealer or he might have grown up to be a doctor, dentist, lawyer, leading politician, member of the US armed forces, shop keeper, office clerk, bank teller or anything else. For God sakes, He was a 12 year old kid. He could have turned out to anything, but we'll never know now. If you're really so sure that black kids growing up in that area are going to be crooks or criminal why aren't you doing something about. Or is it OK just to gun them down because 'Nits grow into lice'. I still believe that what the police man did in this instance was correct and the only thing he could do but if that is the attitude of your average US citizen, or even just a large minority of them, it's no wonder that the black community think there is more to it than just a simple tragic shooting." Being racist has got nothing to do with it, the boy was 12 years old, so old enough to know better. | |||
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"maintman48 The way I see it just another future thug/killer/drug dealer taken out. I have to say I am totally shocked that anyone, in all good conscience, could even think, let alone write, such a callous, insensitive and ultimately racist statement. Yes, he might have grown up to be a thug, killer, drug dealer or he might have grown up to be a doctor, dentist, lawyer, leading politician, member of the US armed forces, shop keeper, office clerk, bank teller or anything else. For God sakes, He was a 12 year old kid. He could have turned out to anything, but we'll never know now. If you're really so sure that black kids growing up in that area are going to be crooks or criminal why aren't you doing something about. Or is it OK just to gun them down because 'Nits grow into lice'. I still believe that what the police man did in this instance was correct and the only thing he could do but if that is the attitude of your average US citizen, or even just a large minority of them, it's no wonder that the black community think there is more to it than just a simple tragic shooting. Being racist has got nothing to do with it, the boy was 12 years old, so old enough to know better." . Obviously not in the eyes of the law. Hence why he's not allowed to buy a real gun. | |||
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" sexy-bum: I've already wrote that this isn't true, ours have gone up in real terms very slowly compared to similar countries that didn't introduce bans. The combined evidence of the many countries that have restricted firearms is that gun crime fell. Japan after their blanket ban only averages around 2 to 10 gun deaths a year. Australia and Germany and GB all saw net reductions. " In 1969 gun crime incidence per year were about 1,000 From 1969 to 1996 gun crime grew a fairly steady rate reaching a peak in 1996 of about 15,000 per year. In 1997, which was mostly before the gun ban legislation took effect, there was a small, but not really very significant drop. From 1998 onwards the number of incidence per year rose at an alarming rate reaching a peak of about 27,000 a year in 2005 (almost twice the 1996 level). Since 2005 the number of incidence has steadily dropped, in 2011 (the last year accurate figures are currently available for) the number was about 15,000 (almost the exact same level as before the 1997 hand gun ban). I’m not saying that we should repeal the hand gun ban, nor am I saying that the hand gun ban caused the steep rice between 1997 and 2005. Who knows, it might have risen even higher if it had not been in place. But what I am saying is that the 1997 hand gun ban DID NOT lead to a drop in gun crime. That is clear from the statistics. Simplistic solutions seldom produce the desired result. In the case of the US, as shown my maintman48’s comment before, it has far more to do with social attitudes rather than the easy availability of guns. Without efforts in other areas as well, simply banning guns will have about as much useful affect as banning them over here had. | |||
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" sexy-bum: I've already wrote that this isn't true, ours have gone up in real terms very slowly compared to similar countries that didn't introduce bans. The combined evidence of the many countries that have restricted firearms is that gun crime fell. Japan after their blanket ban only averages around 2 to 10 gun deaths a year. Australia and Germany and GB all saw net reductions. In 1969 gun crime incidence per year were about 1,000 From 1969 to 1996 gun crime grew a fairly steady rate reaching a peak in 1996 of about 15,000 per year. In 1997, which was mostly before the gun ban legislation took effect, there was a small, but not really very significant drop. From 1998 onwards the number of incidence per year rose at an alarming rate reaching a peak of about 27,000 a year in 2005 (almost twice the 1996 level). Since 2005 the number of incidence has steadily dropped, in 2011 (the last year accurate figures are currently available for) the number was about 15,000 (almost the exact same level as before the 1997 hand gun ban). I’m not saying that we should repeal the hand gun ban, nor am I saying that the hand gun ban caused the steep rice between 1997 and 2005. Who knows, it might have risen even higher if it had not been in place. But what I am saying is that the 1997 hand gun ban DID NOT lead to a drop in gun crime. That is clear from the statistics. Simplistic solutions seldom produce the desired result. In the case of the US, as shown my maintman48’s comment before, it has far more to do with social attitudes rather than the easy availability of guns. Without efforts in other areas as well, simply banning guns will have about as much useful affect as banning them over here had. " you seem to have conveniently ignored the numbers of deaths caused by guns in the US | |||
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" sexy-bum: I've already wrote that this isn't true, ours have gone up in real terms very slowly compared to similar countries that didn't introduce bans. The combined evidence of the many countries that have restricted firearms is that gun crime fell. Japan after their blanket ban only averages around 2 to 10 gun deaths a year. Australia and Germany and GB all saw net reductions. In 1969 gun crime incidence per year were about 1,000 From 1969 to 1996 gun crime grew a fairly steady rate reaching a peak in 1996 of about 15,000 per year. In 1997, which was mostly before the gun ban legislation took effect, there was a small, but not really very significant drop. From 1998 onwards the number of incidence per year rose at an alarming rate reaching a peak of about 27,000 a year in 2005 (almost twice the 1996 level). Since 2005 the number of incidence has steadily dropped, in 2011 (the last year accurate figures are currently available for) the number was about 15,000 (almost the exact same level as before the 1997 hand gun ban). I’m not saying that we should repeal the hand gun ban, nor am I saying that the hand gun ban caused the steep rice between 1997 and 2005. Who knows, it might have risen even higher if it had not been in place. But what I am saying is that the 1997 hand gun ban DID NOT lead to a drop in gun crime. That is clear from the statistics. Simplistic solutions seldom produce the desired result. In the case of the US, as shown my maintman48’s comment before, it has far more to do with social attitudes rather than the easy availability of guns. Without efforts in other areas as well, simply banning guns will have about as much useful affect as banning them over here had. " . Who knows, it might have risen even higher if it had not been in place..... This bit of your message is exactly my point. If you look at the statistics of a similar country to ours that didn't restrict firearms you'd see that there rises were far higher than ours, hence my saying a net loss. All crime went up in that period (this happens though many reasons)so just saying it went up means nothing, it's the rate of rise that you look at. It's perfectly obvious to any reasonable intelligent person that the harder you make it for people to access weapons, the less chance they will have to use them!! To suggest anything different is just ridiculous. No one says it will stop it completely, they say it is the best chance to slow it down as much as possible | |||
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" sexy-bum: I've already wrote that this isn't true, ours have gone up in real terms very slowly compared to similar countries that didn't introduce bans. The combined evidence of the many countries that have restricted firearms is that gun crime fell. Japan after their blanket ban only averages around 2 to 10 gun deaths a year. Australia and Germany and GB all saw net reductions. In 1969 gun crime incidence per year were about 1,000 From 1969 to 1996 gun crime grew a fairly steady rate reaching a peak in 1996 of about 15,000 per year. In 1997, which was mostly before the gun ban legislation took effect, there was a small, but not really very significant drop. From 1998 onwards the number of incidence per year rose at an alarming rate reaching a peak of about 27,000 a year in 2005 (almost twice the 1996 level). Since 2005 the number of incidence has steadily dropped, in 2011 (the last year accurate figures are currently available for) the number was about 15,000 (almost the exact same level as before the 1997 hand gun ban). I’m not saying that we should repeal the hand gun ban, nor am I saying that the hand gun ban caused the steep rice between 1997 and 2005. Who knows, it might have risen even higher if it had not been in place. But what I am saying is that the 1997 hand gun ban DID NOT lead to a drop in gun crime. That is clear from the statistics. Simplistic solutions seldom produce the desired result. In the case of the US, as shown my maintman48’s comment before, it has far more to do with social attitudes rather than the easy availability of guns. Without efforts in other areas as well, simply banning guns will have about as much useful affect as banning them over here had. you seem to have conveniently ignored the numbers of deaths caused by guns in the US " We are talking about if a gun ban reduces gun crime. We tried it here and it didn't work. They have not tried it in the US so, on this point it's not relevant. Also gun crime has always been higher in the US than here both before and after are gun ban | |||
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" sexy-bum:Who knows, it might have risen even higher if it had not been in place..... This bit of your message is exactly my point. If you look at the statistics of a similar country to ours that didn't restrict firearms you'd see that there rises were far higher than ours, hence my saying a net loss. All crime went up in that period (this happens though many reasons)so just saying it went up means nothing, it's the rate of rise that you look at. It's perfectly obvious to any reasonable intelligent person that the harder you make it for people to access weapons, the less chance they will have to use them!! To suggest anything different is just ridiculous. No one says it will stop it completely, they say it is the best chance to slow it down as much as possible" It may be intuitive to believe that but it's neither intelligent, reasonable or obvious to assume that restricting legal access to weapons will make criminals less likely to use them. And it's the use of weapons by criminals that is the real problem. You say other countries similar to UK had worse figures. Show them. My figures are taken from the 'Firearm Crime Statistics', 'Library of The House of Commons' Reference SN/SG/1940. 30th Jan 2012 Go check it yourself, then provide the stats and authority of your counter claim. PS. It's not a personal thing and I have agreed with a lot, although definitely not all, of what you have said previously. | |||
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" sexy-bum: I've already wrote that this isn't true, ours have gone up in real terms very slowly compared to similar countries that didn't introduce bans. The combined evidence of the many countries that have restricted firearms is that gun crime fell. Japan after their blanket ban only averages around 2 to 10 gun deaths a year. Australia and Germany and GB all saw net reductions. In 1969 gun crime incidence per year were about 1,000 From 1969 to 1996 gun crime grew a fairly steady rate reaching a peak in 1996 of about 15,000 per year. In 1997, which was mostly before the gun ban legislation took effect, there was a small, but not really very significant drop. From 1998 onwards the number of incidence per year rose at an alarming rate reaching a peak of about 27,000 a year in 2005 (almost twice the 1996 level). Since 2005 the number of incidence has steadily dropped, in 2011 (the last year accurate figures are currently available for) the number was about 15,000 (almost the exact same level as before the 1997 hand gun ban). I’m not saying that we should repeal the hand gun ban, nor am I saying that the hand gun ban caused the steep rice between 1997 and 2005. Who knows, it might have risen even higher if it had not been in place. But what I am saying is that the 1997 hand gun ban DID NOT lead to a drop in gun crime. That is clear from the statistics. Simplistic solutions seldom produce the desired result. In the case of the US, as shown my maintman48’s comment before, it has far more to do with social attitudes rather than the easy availability of guns. Without efforts in other areas as well, simply banning guns will have about as much useful affect as banning them over here had. you seem to have conveniently ignored the numbers of deaths caused by guns in the US We are talking about if a gun ban reduces gun crime. We tried it here and it didn't work. They have not tried it in the US so, on this point it's not relevant. Also gun crime has always been higher in the US than here both before and after are gun ban" I'm sure the nearly 35,000 people likely to lose their lives in the US next year due to firearms will be pleased to hear they are irrelevant. | |||
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"Some comments just don't even merit a proper response. That's clearly not what I said and definitely not what I meant, and you know it." I was being slightly facetious, but my point is that you focus solely on crime, when the reality is that 1000's of people in the US lose their lives each year because firearms are so readily accessible, it is tragic. | |||
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"Some comments just don't even merit a proper response. That's clearly not what I said and definitely not what I meant, and you know it. I was being slightly facetious, but my point is that you focus solely on crime, when the reality is that 1000's of people in the US lose their lives each year because firearms are so readily accessible, it is tragic." It is tragic that thousands of people loose there lives each year in the US but it is an assumption that banning guns would reduce this. More importantly it is an assumption, which while seeming obvious, is not actually born out by any hard evidence. | |||
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"Question I have to ask is how realistic was the fake gun I know when I was a boy toy guns were black or grey to look real but now they are bright orange and blues to avoid exactly this mistake I've seen pictures of guns similar to the one the child's said to have had. It looks quite fake Sarah x You simply cannot tell that from looking, especially when it's being waved around in an intimidating manner. That's why they fit the bright orange plastic tip, in this case the tip had been removed to make it look real. It was the kids fault plain and simple.... Okay
Sarah x
Still not willing or able to put across a valid point I see. .
I would say that using your own argument over training, that surely a highly trained, highly skilled fully grown man with bullet proof jacket, and a variety of weapons including the option of backup, should surely be able to curtail a 12 year old who's untrained and is "waiving" his weapon around randomly without having to shoot him dead instantly."Jeez, what a load of crap! The boy had it in his waistband, was told to put his hands up, but went for the gun, in the half second (blink you eye) you have to react, do you really think that anyone is not going to pull the trigger? As for all this "shoot him in the arm / leg"... get a grip! I've been very well trained on all sorts of weapons, and was in the Army pistol shooting team, and an arm or leg shot under those conditions is near impossible! More education is needed, telling these kids that, if they do something like this, they will end up dead. When an armed cop points a gun at you and tells you to do something... do it!  | |||
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"Some comments just don't even merit a proper response. That's clearly not what I said and definitely not what I meant, and you know it. I was being slightly facetious, but my point is that you focus solely on crime, when the reality is that 1000's of people in the US lose their lives each year because firearms are so readily accessible, it is tragic. It is tragic that thousands of people loose there lives each year in the US but it is an assumption that banning guns would reduce this. More importantly it is an assumption, which while seeming obvious, is not actually born out by any hard evidence. " The hard evidence is there if you bother to look at it in respect of the massively lower numbers of gun related fatalities in developed countries where guns are not readily available | |||
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"Some comments just don't even merit a proper response. That's clearly not what I said and definitely not what I meant, and you know it. I was being slightly facetious, but my point is that you focus solely on crime, when the reality is that 1000's of people in the US lose their lives each year because firearms are so readily accessible, it is tragic. It is tragic that thousands of people loose there lives each year in the US but it is an assumption that banning guns would reduce this. More importantly it is an assumption, which while seeming obvious, is not actually born out by any hard evidence. " . I found this article you might like. http://www.nationaljournal.com/politics/15-things-to-know-about-australia-s-incredibly-effective-gun-clampdown-20121218 | |||
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"The police over there should be trained to shoot to mame not shoot to kill, av sai it for years u have to be a trigger happy murderer to be a police officer in America, & honestly I think colour/race shouldn't be brought into it coz that's all just coincidence it just happened to be a black kid doesn't mean the same thing wouldn't have happened if he was white or Asian or oriental or a Martian " Trained to maim.... That is ridiculous!!! You can shoot a person in the foot and the round can travel up the leg taking out major arteries and organs killing the person. At the same time people have been shot in the head and survived... Add to that the adrenaline of the police officer and a moving target and you expect them to shoot someone in the leg or hand... You have clearly never shot a pistol to suggest something so ridiculous... Stick to your films... To accuse all American police officers of being gun happy murderers is immensely ignorant... | |||
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"Question I have to ask is how realistic was the fake gun I know when I was a boy toy guns were black or grey to look real but now they are bright orange and blues to avoid exactly this mistake I've seen pictures of guns similar to the one the child's said to have had. It looks quite fake Sarah x You simply cannot tell that from looking, especially when it's being waved around in an intimidating manner. That's why they fit the bright orange plastic tip, in this case the tip had been removed to make it look real. It was the kids fault plain and simple.... Okay
Sarah x
Still not willing or able to put across a valid point I see. .
I would say that using your own argument over training, that surely a highly trained, highly skilled fully grown man with bullet proof jacket, and a variety of weapons including the option of backup, should surely be able to curtail a 12 year old who's untrained and is "waiving" his weapon around randomly without having to shoot him dead instantly.
Jeez, what a load of crap!
The boy had it in his waistband, was told to put his hands up, but went for the gun, in the half second (blink you eye) you have to react, do you really think that anyone is not going to pull the trigger?
As for all this "shoot him in the arm / leg"... get a grip! I've been very well trained on all sorts of weapons, and was in the Army pistol shooting team, and an arm or leg shot under those conditions is near impossible!
More education is needed, telling these kids that, if they do something like this, they will end up dead.
When an armed cop points a gun at you and tells you to do something... do it! "This is so sad , and I'm not sure blaming anyone is productive ? That said , I think above valid point illustrates that some parents should perhaps instill a greater respect from their children toward people of responsibility ? | |||
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"Some of the weapons held and that are for sale in the USA could not possibly be for self defence or protection. They are military weapons and that is why they are called assault weapons. It is in they're constitution the right to bear arms. I would be the first to defend that but limits should be in place on the type of weapons available. " There are limitations but it does vary from state to state. True assault weapons aren't generally available to the public, even when they are they require a special licence. In a lotof cases of so called assault weapons being used they are in fact semi-automatic versions. Yes they're the same calibre and have a magazine of between 20 and thirty rounds but their basic operation (and calibre) is no different to a semi-automatic hunting rifle. None of these facts are really relevant to this discussion though. | |||
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"sexy-bum:. I found this article you might like. http://www.nationaljournal.com/politics/15-things-to-know-about-australia-s-incredibly-effective-gun-clampdown-20121218" Whilst the document you refer to does sound very positive about the Australian gun control laws a closes look at the actual statistics reveals a somewhat different picture. The summary that you point to is actually based on this document. http://andrewleigh.org/pdf/GunBuyback_Panel.pdf. If you go to page 9 of that document you will see two graphs that reflect the real situation. A simple regression analysis reveals the following. From 1968 to 1987 Homicides due to firearms ranged from about 0.5 to 0.8 per 100,000 with a linear regression starting at about 0.5 per 100,000 and ending at about 0.6 per 100,000. A slight, but not very significant rise over the 20 year period. From 1988 to 1995 the figures range from about 0.6 per 100,000 to 0.35 per 100,000 with a linear regression starting at 0.6 per 100,000 and ending at 0.45 per 100,000. A quite significant drop over a 7 year period. But what’s really surprising is that we can extend that exact same line forward through 1996 (the year of their ban) in a straight line all the way through to 2006 and it still fits perfectly. From 1997 to 2006 the figures range from 0.4 per 100,000 to 0.1 per 100,000 with a linear regression starting at 0.45 and ending at 0.1, pretty much the same rate of decline as in the 7 years before. The reality is that, despite the positive spin placed on the report and, in Australia’s case the numbers did not actual rise after the ban, the actual decline after the ban is at exactly the same rate as it had been in the seven years before then ban. Simplistic solutions to complex problems seldom produce the results expected. | |||
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"Some of the weapons held and that are for sale in the USA could not possibly be for self defence or protection. They are military weapons and that is why they are called assault weapons. It is in they're constitution the right to bear arms. I would be the first to defend that but limits should be in place on the type of weapons available. There are limitations but it does vary from state to state. True assault weapons aren't generally available to the public, even when they are they require a special licence. In a lotof cases of so called assault weapons being used they are in fact semi-automatic versions. Yes they're the same calibre and have a magazine of between 20 and thirty rounds but their basic operation (and calibre) is no different to a semi-automatic hunting rifle. None of these facts are really relevant to this discussion though." And most of those are available in the UK... | |||
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"sexy-bum:. I found this article you might like. http://www.nationaljournal.com/politics/15-things-to-know-about-australia-s-incredibly-effective-gun-clampdown-20121218 Whilst the document you refer to does sound very positive about the Australian gun control laws a closes look at the actual statistics reveals a somewhat different picture. The summary that you point to is actually based on this document. http://andrewleigh.org/pdf/GunBuyback_Panel.pdf. If you go to page 9 of that document you will see two graphs that reflect the real situation. A simple regression analysis reveals the following. From 1968 to 1987 Homicides due to firearms ranged from about 0.5 to 0.8 per 100,000 with a linear regression starting at about 0.5 per 100,000 and ending at about 0.6 per 100,000. A slight, but not very significant rise over the 20 year period. From 1988 to 1995 the figures range from about 0.6 per 100,000 to 0.35 per 100,000 with a linear regression starting at 0.6 per 100,000 and ending at 0.45 per 100,000. A quite significant drop over a 7 year period. But what’s really surprising is that we can extend that exact same line forward through 1996 (the year of their ban) in a straight line all the way through to 2006 and it still fits perfectly. From 1997 to 2006 the figures range from 0.4 per 100,000 to 0.1 per 100,000 with a linear regression starting at 0.45 and ending at 0.1, pretty much the same rate of decline as in the 7 years before. The reality is that, despite the positive spin placed on the report and, in Australia’s case the numbers did not actual rise after the ban, the actual decline after the ban is at exactly the same rate as it had been in the seven years before then ban. Simplistic solutions to complex problems seldom produce the results expected. " . Yes but no one is saying it will cure the problem overnight without a single criminal ever using a hand gun again,their saying it will alleviate it better than leaving all weapons fully accessible by the vast majority. To do nothing about a situation because the answers seem hard or unworkable is to me the regression of our species. It would be the equivalent of saying there's nothing we can do about HIV, someone's always going to have sex without condoms and then there's illegal prostituion and the third world is riddled with it anyway so we might as well let it run its course!!. No we don't say that, obviously we chip away at it the best we can, sometimes with little gains, the vast majority behaving sensibly even though we know they'll be people flouting the advise and behaving criminally. What ever steps people put in place to help bad things get better it's always going to step on other people way of life, sure the majority of gun owners are sensible and not criminals, but that doesn't stop the odd one of them having a mental breakdown and creating another hungerford another dunblane. If you really want to crack down on gun crime then you'll need to follow something nearer to Japan's solution although personally I'd prefer to take a smaller but negligible risk on gun crime and retain most of my legal freedoms than take practically no risk but relinquish them to an all powerful state like the Japanese do. | |||
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"Some of the weapons held and that are for sale in the USA could not possibly be for self defence or protection. They are military weapons and that is why they are called assault weapons. It is in they're constitution the right to bear arms. I would be the first to defend that but limits should be in place on the type of weapons available. There are limitations but it does vary from state to state. True assault weapons aren't generally available to the public, even when they are they require a special licence. In a lotof cases of so called assault weapons being used they are in fact semi-automatic versions. Yes they're the same calibre and have a magazine of between 20 and thirty rounds but their basic operation (and calibre) is no different to a semi-automatic hunting rifle. None of these facts are really relevant to this discussion though. And most of those are available in the UK..." No they're not. Semi-automatic has been illegal since 1985 (with the exception of. 22lr). | |||
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"sexy-bum:. To do nothing about a situation because the answers seem hard or unworkable is to me the regression of our species. " But to do something, while all the real evidence shows it to be totally ineffective, just because it’s popular and seems obvious is surly time and effort taken away from finding the real solution to the problem. Let me make myself clear. I’m not against control, I’m just not prepared to advocate it or support as a method of reducing crime, or gun crime in particular. There is absolutely now evidence that it has the desired result. ALL the evidence that I’ve seen has either shown an increase in gun crime or no difference at all. It’s really about not letting politicians, more interested in their own careers than in actually solving real world problems, get away with basically lying to people. There is no simple solution don’t try and impose one, especially one that has proven time and time again NOT to produce the results that are expected and wanted. And BTW, how sexy is your bum.;). Just curious. he he | |||
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"So is killing the suspect only a last resort when said suspect is white now? Are officers not trained to apprehend anymore?" Would you like to disarm someone with a gun? I was trained to do it and I still wouldn't... | |||
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"So is killing the suspect only a last resort when said suspect is white now? Are officers not trained to apprehend anymore?" I don't know how you get to that conclusion from what's been said throughout the hole thread. Can you elaborate a little on what you actually mean? | |||
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"So is killing the suspect only a last resort when said suspect is white now? Are officers not trained to apprehend anymore? I don't know how you get to that conclusion from what's been said throughout the hole thread. Can you elaborate a little on what you actually mean?" The thread isn't the only area that this topic exists. There are lots of white murderers that were apprehended during/after their spree and are still alive now. This child was simply accused of possessing a weapon and allegedly reached for it, at which point the officer shot to kill, not maim. Although still excessive, a shot to the leg or arm would have been a much more logical choice regarding the situation and would have allowed the officer to both remove the 'weapon' and arrest the suspect pending further investigation into the incident. I don't know what the standard gear is for American police officers but surely if they have military weapons/vehicles readily available to intimidate the people of Ferguson, they should also have a taser at their disposal. I don't know what the distance was between the child and the officer so use of this could have been a poor decision regarding the officer's safety. The state that America is in at the moment and has been since it was 'founded' leaves me with little option but to believe that had the child (note, CHILD) been white, the officer's actions would have been much less violent. The suspicion of racism is emphasised by the fact that the child's race was questioned prior to officers being dispatched. Hmm... | |||
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"sexy-bum:. To do nothing about a situation because the answers seem hard or unworkable is to me the regression of our species. But to do something, while all the real evidence shows it to be totally ineffective, just because it’s popular and seems obvious is surly time and effort taken away from finding the real solution to the problem. Let me make myself clear. I’m not against control, I’m just not prepared to advocate it or support as a method of reducing crime, or gun crime in particular. There is absolutely now evidence that it has the desired result. ALL the evidence that I’ve seen has either shown an increase in gun crime or no difference at all. It’s really about not letting politicians, more interested in their own careers than in actually solving real world problems, get away with basically lying to people. There is no simple solution don’t try and impose one, especially one that has proven time and time again NOT to produce the results that are expected and wanted. And BTW, how sexy is your bum.;). Just curious. he he" ... Just curious  or just curious  .
Mines not bad but the wifes is amazing!.. | |||
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"So is killing the suspect only a last resort when said suspect is white now? Are officers not trained to apprehend anymore? I don't know how you get to that conclusion from what's been said throughout the hole thread. Can you elaborate a little on what you actually mean? The thread isn't the only area that this topic exists. There are lots of white murderers that were apprehended during/after their spree and are still alive now. This child was simply accused of possessing a weapon and allegedly reached for it, at which point the officer shot to kill, not maim. Although still excessive, a shot to the leg or arm would have been a much more logical choice regarding the situation and would have allowed the officer to both remove the 'weapon' and arrest the suspect pending further investigation into the incident. I don't know what the standard gear is for American police officers but surely if they have military weapons/vehicles readily available to intimidate the people of Ferguson, they should also have a taser at their disposal. I don't know what the distance was between the child and the officer so use of this could have been a poor decision regarding the officer's safety. The state that America is in at the moment and has been since it was 'founded' leaves me with little option but to believe that had the child (note, CHILD) been white, the officer's actions would have been much less violent. The suspicion of racism is emphasised by the fact that the child's race was questioned prior to officers being dispatched. Hmm... "As has been explained numerous times, a wounding shot is not possible. A small moving target with a handgun is far more dangerous to innocent bystanders. Officers are trained to shoot centre mass to reduce the risk of collateral damage. As far as I. concerned race isn't an issue. If someone, ANYONE, is waving a gun around near kids in a playground and don't put the weapon down when ordered to TWICE by police they're likely to be shot. | |||
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"sexy-bum:. To do nothing about a situation because the answers seem hard or unworkable is to me the regression of our species. But to do something, while all the real evidence shows it to be totally ineffective, just because it’s popular and seems obvious is surly time and effort taken away from finding the real solution to the problem. Let me make myself clear. I’m not against control, I’m just not prepared to advocate it or support as a method of reducing crime, or gun crime in particular. There is absolutely now evidence that it has the desired result. ALL the evidence that I’ve seen has either shown an increase in gun crime or no difference at all. It’s really about not letting politicians, more interested in their own careers than in actually solving real world problems, get away with basically lying to people. There is no simple solution don’t try and impose one, especially one that has proven time and time again NOT to produce the results that are expected and wanted. And BTW, how sexy is your bum.;). Just curious. he he... Just curious or just curious .
Mines not bad but the wifes is amazing!.."PMSL. Nice One | |||
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