FabSwingers.com forum: 12 Yr old boy shot by police

By *oddy OP Woman
over a year ago

between havant and chichester

A 12-year-old boy has been shot dead by police in the US city of Cleveland, after brandishing what turned out to be a fake gun in a playground.

Police say an officer fired two shots at the boy after he failed to obey an order to raise his hands.

A caller reported the boy to police for scaring people with a gun but said that he did not know if it was real.

surely they should have double checked first his poor parents

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"A 12-year-old boy has been shot dead by police in the US city of Cleveland, after brandishing what turned out to be a fake gun in a playground.

Police say an officer fired two shots at the boy after he failed to obey an order to raise his hands.

A caller reported the boy to police for scaring people with a gun but said that he did not know if it was real.

surely they should have double checked first his poor parents"

It's tragic but imagine if it had been real and he'd started shooting over kids. It's not like that sort of things doesn't happen over there. I'm sure the policeman involved will be going through some pretty terrible psychological trauma himself.

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By *B9 QueenWoman
over a year ago

Over the rainbow, under the bridge

I wonder if had been possible to shoot to disable rather than kill?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

checking with his parents ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"checking with his parents ?

I read that as well but I'm sure its just missing a comma.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"checking with his parents ?

I read that as well but I'm sure its just missing a comma."

yes re-reading it maybe -

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I wonder if had been possible to shoot to disable rather than kill?"

99% of the time it isn't. There's a lot of things to consider when shooting someone and missing is one of them. Police officers and marksmen are trained to shoot centre mass, this affords the best chance of hitting the target and limiting any collateral damage by either missing or over penetration. Shooting to wound is mostly a Hollywood myth.

The officers in this incident had no clue the gun was fake (it had no orange markings as required by law) and the kid sadly took no notice of their warnings.

Tragic but it was the kids fault.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

"A 12-year-old boy has been shot dead by police in the US city of Cleveland, after brandishing what turned out to be a fake gun in a playground.

Police say an officer fired two shots at the boy after he failed to obey an order to raise his hands.

A caller reported the boy to police for scaring people with a gun but said that he did not know if it was real.

surely they should have double checked first his poor parents"

I know this city very well. Last week, a complete nut job shot dead four people in the same area of East Cleveland and so the Police were on high alert anyway. Whilst not directly related to this incident, I imagine the Police were very nervous as a result of the previous multiple shootings.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

When the officers first got there the boys started to walk away. The officers told him to stop, he did stop but pulled the gun out of his waist band. The officers only had a split second to make a decision.

Yes it was a bb gun but looked very real and yes it had the orange tip removed.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"A 12-year-old boy has been shot dead by police in the US city of Cleveland, after brandishing what turned out to be a fake gun in a playground.

Police say an officer fired two shots at the boy after he failed to obey an order to raise his hands.

A caller reported the boy to police for scaring people with a gun but said that he did not know if it was real.

surely they should have double checked first his poor parents

Yes I know the area pretty well also, as I grew up in the area.

The sad part here in the u.s. they make the bb/pellet guns very realistic now. Yes they are supposed to have a orange/red tip installed but the kids and grown ups as well break them off

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By *ucsparkMan
over a year ago

dudley

Feel sad for the officer, the shot child and people who saw it all unfold. Just another case of knowing what your child is doing and with what. Sure a lot of parents are having long talks about toy guns for christmas because of it

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By * Busty HotwifeCouple
over a year ago

Bradford

"I wonder if had been possible to shoot to disable rather than kill?"

These comments always make me guffaw loudly as this is the real world not a Hollywood movie. Because they're short barrelled, pistols are very inaccurate over 15-30 metres, dependant on the make and the skill of the firer, and of course if you're 'incapacitating shot' aimed at the hand/arm misses, extremely high probability, then that gives them a chance to shoot you.

People are taught and practiced to shoot at the 'centre of the visible mass' ie the body, as this affords greater chance of a 1st shot success. And also to 'double tap', fire two rounds at the same point in order to maximise incapacitating the target.

Sadly children's body's are smaller and less robust so more essential organs in a small space.

Stories like this will always be rife when a country has such a 'gun culture'.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It just astounds me how Americans are so enamored with their guns and that they refuse to give them up no matter how many people die Including their own kids.

Its their god given right.

I wonder how many people have to die before they understand they are twats.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It just astounds me how Americans are so enamored with their guns and that they refuse to give them up no matter how many people die Including their own kids.

Its their god given right.

I wonder how many people have to die before they understand they are twats.

When the criminals give up their guns maybe the law abiding citizens will consider giving up theirs.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It just astounds me how Americans are so enamored with their guns and that they refuse to give them up no matter how many people die Including their own kids.

Its their god given right.

I wonder how many people have to die before they understand they are twats.

When the criminals give up their guns maybe the law abiding citizens will consider giving up theirs."

Then it will never happen then but I have to wonder why they think it's ok to give children guns. Idiots.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I agree it's ridiculous the amount of people who die every year in USA from gun shots

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It just astounds me how Americans are so enamored with their guns and that they refuse to give them up no matter how many people die Including their own kids.

Its their god given right.

I wonder how many people have to die before they understand they are twats.

When the criminals give up their guns maybe the law abiding citizens will consider giving up theirs.

Then it will never happen then but I have to wonder why they think it's ok to give children guns. Idiots. "

This kid had a toy which had the Orange tips removed. Who's to say he didn't do this himself?

I'm a licenced gun owner and my kids also shoot and have done from an early age. Nothing wrong with teaching kids how to safely use a firearm. I'd go as far as to say that in America, where there are so many guns, it's probably a responsible thing to do.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I agree it's ridiculous the amount of people who die every year in USA from gun shots

Twice as many people are killed with baseball bats over there every year.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I wonder if had been possible to shoot to disable rather than kill?"

Not easy at distance and a "disabled" person with a gun will undoubtedly open fire. As an injured animal is always more dangerous. Sounds great on paper but doesn't work in practice.

Ohio has a law stating that all replica guns must be kept loaded with bright orange munitions....so can see its a fake. This one wasn't. A "replica" by definition is an identical copy of the real thing...can't spot it. I've a cousin who is armed response...thankfully never had to discharge weapon in real situation. Tragic event and I feel for his family....but also for the traumatised officers involved.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It just astounds me how Americans are so enamored with their guns and that they refuse to give them up no matter how many people die Including their own kids.

Its their god given right.

I wonder how many people have to die before they understand they are twats.

When the criminals give up their guns maybe the law abiding citizens will consider giving up theirs.

Then it will never happen then but I have to wonder why they think it's ok to give children guns. Idiots.

This kid had a toy which had the Orange tips removed. Who's to say he didn't do this himself?

You've just lost my high option of you. You're a fool and I hope you never regret that.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I agree it's ridiculous the amount of people who die every year in USA from gun shots

Twice as many people are killed with baseball bats over there every year."

Seems like Americans just want to die. Maybe we should let them.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

America is so full of real guns, there are so many real shootings both mass and singular it's no wonder the police take no chances.

It is incredibly sad only a kid,

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"America is so full of real guns, there are so many real shootings both mass and singular it's no wonder the police take no chances.

It is incredibly sad only a kid, "
It is extremely sad. Very upsetting.

Such a stupid, needless waste of a life

Sarah x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The population there is far greater and this isn't simply about guns. Sadly I imagine there will be social, cultural or health implications to this tragic incident.

Stable healthy people don't generally brandish weapons in anger. This boy may not have had the capacity to understand the consequences of his action or maybe even he was emulating the behaviour of some bad role model ? Who knows, but It's awful for everyone.

On the whole US gun nut culture debate, it's rather disconcerting that knife crime is the big problem in the UK.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It just astounds me how Americans are so enamored with their guns and that they refuse to give them up no matter how many people die Including their own kids.

Its their god given right.

I wonder how many people have to die before they understand they are twats.

When the criminals give up their guns maybe the law abiding citizens will consider giving up theirs.

Then it will never happen then but I have to wonder why they think it's ok to give children guns. Idiots.

This kid had a toy which had the Orange tips removed. Who's to say he didn't do this himself?

You've just lost my high option of you. You're a fool and I hope you never regret that. "

That's cool, you're entitled to your opinion, obviously. My kids don't have free access to guns and they only shoot at a gun club under strict supervision and I, myself, am a trained marksman.

My philosophy was to teach safety and respect from an early age to avoid possible accidents in the future. If my kids decide they don't want to shoot, fine. But if they do want to I want them to be as safe as possible and the best way to do that is to give them the skills and respect required from an early age before Hollywood and hormonal bravado gets its claws into them.

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

Mr Who.....is it for farming you taught your children to shoot?

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

To the OP, sad as it is that a child has been killed....the police wont have known if it was a toy or not by the sounds of it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Mr Who.....is it for farming you taught your children to shoot? "

I grew up in a rural area and my entire family has always shot and I myself was probably 6 or 7 when I started shooting. I gained my marksman qualifications in the armed forces though.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Mr Who.....is it for farming you taught your children to shoot?

I grew up in a rural area and my entire family has always shot and I myself was probably 6 or 7 when I started shooting. I gained my marksman qualifications in the armed forces though."

I pressed post before I'd finished.

We all target shoot and hunt. Occasionally I do pest control for farmers th St have granted me permission to shoot on their land too.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You've just lost my high option of you. You're a fool and I hope you never regret that.

That's cool, you're entitled to your opinion, obviously. My kids don't have free access to guns and they only shoot at a gun club under strict supervision and I, myself, am a trained marksman.

Whatever way you look at it a gun is meant for killing and harming and however safe you think you and your kids are accidents happen. Just think how you would feel if your kid accidentally shot himself die? You would be filled with guilt and I doubt you would think it was such a good idea then. Why even put them in the situation?!

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

"Mr Who.....is it for farming you taught your children to shoot?

I grew up in a rural area and my entire family has always shot and I myself was probably 6 or 7 when I started shooting. I gained my marksman qualifications in the armed forces though.

I pressed post before I'd finished.

We all target shoot and hunt. Occasionally I do pest control for farmers th St have granted me permission to shoot on their land too."

Thanks for answering

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You've just lost my high option of you. You're a fool and I hope you never regret that.

That's cool, you're entitled to your opinion, obviously. My kids don't have free access to guns and they only shoot at a gun club under strict supervision and I, myself, am a trained marksman.

Obviously accidents can and do happen and yes I'd feel terrible. But. I'd feel worse if I hadn't done as much as I could to minimise the risks.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I agree it's ridiculous the amount of people who die every year in USA from gun shots

Twice as many people are killed with baseball bats over there every year.

Seems like Americans just want to die. Maybe we should let them. "

In every other country that has had an issue with shootings and subsequently banned guns the issue has mostly died out. Yet Americans seem adamant in shooting each other. I question the intelligence of any group of people that put their freedom to shoot stuff ahead of the lives of children.

Its tragic and sad but will continue to happen until Americans wake up.

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By *inaTitzTV/TS
over a year ago

Titz Towers, North Notts

It's a bad business all round.

3 weeks or so ago, I went to see Rich Hall and he was saying about his neighbour in Montana coming round to his place with an Assault Rifle and inviting him to come duck hunting. He said a fucking assault rifle? I can catch ducks with bits of bread...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You've just lost my high option of you. You're a fool and I hope you never regret that.

That's cool, you're entitled to your opinion, obviously. My kids don't have free access to guns and they only shoot at a gun club under strict supervision and I, myself, am a trained marksman.

Does this guilt apply to children that die on their first bike ? Skateboard ? Using their Mobile phones. Many of which are given these and die on our streets.

IMO this would/will happen on our streets, the police no longer take any risks with their or others safety.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You've just lost my high option of you. You're a fool and I hope you never regret that.

That's cool, you're entitled to your opinion, obviously. My kids don't have free access to guns and they only shoot at a gun club under strict supervision and I, myself, am a trained marksman.

Does this guilt apply to children that die on their first bike ? Skateboard ? Using their Mobile phones. Many of which are given these and die on our streets.

IMO this would/will happen on our streets, the police no longer take any risks with their or others safety."

Didn't know skateboards, bikes and mobile where used to kill people! Do they give them out to soldiers and police now?.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You've just lost my high option of you. You're a fool and I hope you never regret that.

That's cool, you're entitled to your opinion, obviously. My kids don't have free access to guns and they only shoot at a gun club under strict supervision and I, myself, am a trained marksman.

Does this guilt apply to children that die on their first bike ? Skateboard ? Using their Mobile phones. Many of which are given these and die on our streets.

IMO this would/will happen on our streets, the police no longer take any risks with their or others safety.

Didn't know skateboards, bikes and mobile where used to kill people! Do they give them out to soldiers and police now?.

They kill the users on a daily basis, many don't give the children any training and leave them on our streets.

This man is giving his children all the training he possibly can in a secure environment with trained proffessionals and you guilt trip him - he knows the risks better than many, he has spent a life time with weapons.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

My cousins were taught how to shoot and as they lived on a farm out in the middle of nowhere I never thought it odd.

They didn't grow up to be gun toting killers...it's very sad, very very sad this young boys life is no longer because of the actions of murderous adults. The policeman in question will have to suffer the trauma of this and that's punishment enough.

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

My cousins were taught how to shoot and as they lived on a farm out in the middle of nowhere I never thought it odd.

The police officer shouldn't be punished at all. His response was 100% correct in the situation. The trauma and guilt he will inevitably feel isn't punishment enough, it's entirely undeserved punishment.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Such a sad story

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

My cousins were taught how to shoot and as they lived on a farm out in the middle of nowhere I never thought it odd.

For the people calling for him to be punished is what I meant.

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By *ndecidedMan
over a year ago

London

So sad, but I thought this was exactly what tasers were invented for, non lethal disabling of a suspect.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So sad, but I thought this was exactly what tasers were invented for, non lethal disabling of a suspect."

A Taser has a rough shot distance of 21 feet and can be very inaccurate. If you're pointing a Taser at someone with a Firearm and it proves ineffective then you have no real time to react I imagine ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So sad, but I thought this was exactly what tasers were invented for, non lethal disabling of a suspect.

A Taser has a rough shot distance of 21 feet and can be very inaccurate. If you're pointing a Taser at someone with a Firearm and it proves ineffective then you have no real time to react I imagine ? "

A taser can also kill. Look at the recent incident in Wales.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So sad, but I thought this was exactly what tasers were invented for, non lethal disabling of a suspect."
And he was shot twice. In the TORSO...twice. A 12 yr old child... The police officer that shot him will suffer psychologically for the rest of his life. GOOD

Sarah x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So sad, but I thought this was exactly what tasers were invented for, non lethal disabling of a suspect.And he was shot twice. In the TORSO...twice. A 12 yr old child... The police officer that shot him will suffer psychologically for the rest of his life. GOOD

Sarah x"

You weren't there though.

How can you say that?

It surely wasn't a decision he made easily?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So sad, but I thought this was exactly what tasers were invented for, non lethal disabling of a suspect.

A Taser has a rough shot distance of 21 feet and can be very inaccurate. If you're pointing a Taser at someone with a Firearm and it proves ineffective then you have no real time to react I imagine ?

A taser can also kill. Look at the recent incident in Wales."

Yes it can, but the chances are far less and usually that would only happen in circumstances where a subject already has underlying medical issues or is possibly in some drug induced state where there are raised heart rates etc. It's less lethal not non lethal.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Sarah x"

I agree and they knew there was a high possibly it was a fake.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It's a bad business all round.

That's an over exaggeration for the sake of comedy.

What most people consider to be assault rifles are only really semi automatic rifles in the shape of military weapons. The calibre and operation is often the same as a 'normal' hunting rifle. Unless he was talking about a fully automatic rifle and even then the calibre is still the same and it would have select fire, meaning it can (when selected) still fire single shots. That being said, a shotgun would be my choice for ducks, not a rifle.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Sarah x

I agree and they knew there was a high possibly it was a fake.

I don't know. How do we know that ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Sarah x

I agree and they knew there was a high possibly it was a fake.

How did they know?

I couldn't tell a fake from a toy without picking it up this was being waved around and pointed at them in an offensive manner. Should they have allowed the kid to have had the opportunity to kill or wound someone before they acted?

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By *edangel_2013Woman
over a year ago

southend

"So sad, but I thought this was exactly what tasers were invented for, non lethal disabling of a suspect."

If I am shot with a taser, it would be as likely to kill me as a bullet. I am epileptic and a shot of electricity such as a taser would seriously disable if not kill me.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

BBC website reports caller states he did not know if gun was real. There are possibly many options that we as a 9 o'clock jury can consider but it's quite an indictment to make that the guy shot a 12 year old because he's gun happy.?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So sad, but I thought this was exactly what tasers were invented for, non lethal disabling of a suspect.

If I am shot with a taser, it would be as likely to kill me as a bullet. I am epileptic and a shot of electricity such as a taser would seriously disable if not kill me."
I'm rather hoping you won't carry a replica fire am around to test that theory !

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Sarah x

I agree and they knew there was a high possibly it was a fake.

I don't know. How do we know that ? "

Because the guy who phoned it in said he saw a gun on the kid but he wasn't sure if it was fake or not.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Sarah x

I agree and they knew there was a high possibly it was a fake.

I don't know. How do we know that ?

Because the guy who phoned it in said he saw a gun on the kid but he wasn't sure if it was fake or not. "

Yes I just read the article. How would you suggest it should be dealt with. Report is boy with handgun Possibly fake but not confirmed in playground frightening people ? I'm genuinely interested in perspectives.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Sarah x

I agree and they knew there was a high possibly it was a fake.

I don't know. How do we know that ?

Because the guy who phoned it in said he saw a gun on the kid but he wasn't sure if it was fake or not. "

The operative phrase is "not sure". It's not a risk worth taking.

It's truly a tragedy and avoidable but the officer acted appropriately and in the interests of public safety.

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

Sarah x

I agree and they knew there was a high possibly it was a fake.

I don't know. How do we know that ?

Because the guy who phoned it in said he saw a gun on the kid but he wasn't sure if it was fake or not. "

That means the guy didn't know.

It doesn't mean there's a high probability it was a replica. The police officers couldn't tell. The identifying mark to show it was a replica had been removed. The kid failed to do as instructed and started waving a gun around.

Shooting twice to the torso is what the police are trained to do. Their response was absolutely correct.

Had the gun been real and had the boy shot other people while the police were trying to reason with him, you'd be asking why the police hadn't shot him to protect others.

It's tragic but the fault lies solely with the boy.

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

Sarah x"

Where would you have shot him then? There are posts higher up to explain why he was shot twice and in the torso.

The police officer acted entirely correctly.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It just astounds me how Americans are so enamored with their guns and that they refuse to give them up no matter how many people die Including their own kids.

Its their god given right.

I wonder how many people have to die before they understand they are twats.

When the criminals give up their guns maybe the law abiding citizens will consider giving up theirs.

Then it will never happen then but I have to wonder why they think it's ok to give children guns. Idiots.

This kid had a toy which had the Orange tips removed. Who's to say he didn't do this himself?

Totally agree. I also had guns as a kid, pistols and rifles and frequently used shotguns. My mum taught me to shoot at an early age. I've given my son a go when I've been at my folks. Education and respect of guns is key. Like alcohol.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Sarah x

I agree and they knew there was a high possibly it was a fake.

I don't know. How do we know that ?

Because the guy who phoned it in said he saw a gun on the kid but he wasn't sure if it was fake or not. "
Yes and that the boy was sat on a swing, taking the gun out of his pocket, showing it off then putting it away again. At no point did he threaten anyone with it..The 'man' that murdered him, was probably all hyped up before getting there and already knew what outcome he'd like...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Sarah x

I agree and they knew there was a high possibly it was a fake.

I don't know. How do we know that ?

Because the guy who phoned it in said he saw a gun on the kid but he wasn't sure if it was fake or not.

The operative phrase is "not sure". It's not a risk worth taking.

It's truly a tragedy and avoidable but the officer acted appropriately and in the interests of public safety."

It's a sad state if kids get shoot on assumption rather then fact.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Sarah x

I agree and they knew there was a high possibly it was a fake.

I don't know. How do we know that ?

Because the guy who phoned it in said he saw a gun on the kid but he wasn't sure if it was fake or not.

That means the guy didn't know.

Shooting twice to the torso is what the police are trained to do. Their response was absolutely correct.

Had the gun been real and had the boy shot other people while the police were trying to reason with him, you'd be asking why the police hadn't shot him to protect others.

It's tragic but the fault lies solely with the boy."

The fault does not lie solely with the boy.

It lies with the world around him.

The environment he was brought up in.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Sarah x

I agree and they knew there was a high possibly it was a fake.

I don't know. How do we know that ?

Because the guy who phoned it in said he saw a gun on the kid but he wasn't sure if it was fake or not.

That means the guy didn't know.

Shooting twice to the torso is what the police are trained to do. Their response was absolutely correct.

Had the gun been real and had the boy shot other people while the police were trying to reason with him, you'd be asking why the police hadn't shot him to protect others.

It's tragic but the fault lies solely with the boy.

The fault does not lie solely with the boy.

It lies with the world around him.

The environment he was brought up in."

absolutely.

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

Sarah x

I agree and they knew there was a high possibly it was a fake.

I don't know. How do we know that ?

Because the guy who phoned it in said he saw a gun on the kid but he wasn't sure if it was fake or not.

The operative phrase is "not sure". It's not a risk worth taking.

It's truly a tragedy and avoidable but the officer acted appropriately and in the interests of public safety.

It's a sad state if kids get shoot on assumption rather then fact.

Fact: the boy had not done as police told him.

Fact: the boy had pulled out a weapon and waved it around.

Fact: he was at a school surrounded by other kids.

Fact: he could easily have killed multiple people before anyone could get the gun to establish if it was real.

Fact: the only way to tell if it was real was likely to be to take it from him and examine it.

Fact: the police had to assess the risks, make a judgement call.

They did and opted to act to protect the public - many other children - around them.

Would you opt to save the life of the gun holder at the expense of several other lives? That was the risk they had to consider.

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

Apologies - for "school" read "playground".

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Sarah x

I agree and they knew there was a high possibly it was a fake.

I don't know. How do we know that ?

Because the guy who phoned it in said he saw a gun on the kid but he wasn't sure if it was fake or not.

The operative phrase is "not sure". It's not a risk worth taking.

It's truly a tragedy and avoidable but the officer acted appropriately and in the interests of public safety.

It's a sad state if kids get shoot on assumption rather then fact.

Fact: the boy had not done as police told him.

Fact: the boy had pulled out a weapon and waved it around.

Fact: he was at a school surrounded by other kids.

Fact: he could easily have killed multiple people before anyone could get the gun to establish if it was real.

Fact: the only way to tell if it was real was likely to be to take it from him and examine it.

Fact: the police had to assess the risks, make a judgement call.

They did and opted to act to protect the public - many other children - around them.

Would you opt to save the life of the gun holder at the expense of several other lives? That was the risk they had to consider. "
Why did they not react in the same way when faced with a MAN that had a REAL gun (they knew it was real because he had opened fire in a packed cinema and injured several people)? Why was he not shot and killed? He still had the gun on him..but they let him come quietly.

Sarah x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It just astounds me how Americans are so enamored with their guns and that they refuse to give them up no matter how many people die Including their own kids.

Its their god given right.

I wonder how many people have to die before they understand they are twats.

When the criminals give up their guns maybe the law abiding citizens will consider giving up theirs.

Then it will never happen then but I have to wonder why they think it's ok to give children guns. Idiots. "

I agree with you, but please were not all idiots, yes I own guns and several at that. Both my boys know how to handle and use firearms from the age of 10 I taught them both along with going to gun safety courses, yes I have a gun cabinet and yes my wife and myself are the only key holders to it.

No I will not give them up period enough said

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

Sarah x

I agree and they knew there was a high possibly it was a fake.

I don't know. How do we know that ?

Because the guy who phoned it in said he saw a gun on the kid but he wasn't sure if it was fake or not.

The operative phrase is "not sure". It's not a risk worth taking.

It's truly a tragedy and avoidable but the officer acted appropriately and in the interests of public safety.

It's a sad state if kids get shoot on assumption rather then fact.

Fact: the boy had not done as police told him.

Fact: the boy had pulled out a weapon and waved it around.

Fact: he was at a school surrounded by other kids.

Fact: he could easily have killed multiple people before anyone could get the gun to establish if it was real.

Fact: the only way to tell if it was real was likely to be to take it from him and examine it.

Fact: the police had to assess the risks, make a judgement call.

They did and opted to act to protect the public - many other children - around them.

Would you opt to save the life of the gun holder at the expense of several other lives? That was the risk they had to consider. Why did they not react in the same way when faced with a MAN that had a REAL gun (they knew it was real because he had opened fire in a packed cinema and injured several people)? Why was he not shot and killed? He still had the gun on him..but they let him come quietly.

Sarah x "

I don't know because I don't know the circumstances of that incident. They would have assessed the risk in the same way.

If your child had been in that playground and had been shot because the police hesitated to shoot a child, what would you say?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Sarah x

I agree and they knew there was a high possibly it was a fake.

I don't know. How do we know that ?

Because the guy who phoned it in said he saw a gun on the kid but he wasn't sure if it was fake or not.

The operative phrase is "not sure". It's not a risk worth taking.

It's truly a tragedy and avoidable but the officer acted appropriately and in the interests of public safety.

It's a sad state if kids get shoot on assumption rather then fact.

Fact: the boy had not done as police told him.

Fact: the boy had pulled out a weapon and waved it around.

Fact: he was at a school surrounded by other kids.

Fact: he could easily have killed multiple people before anyone could get the gun to establish if it was real.

Fact: the only way to tell if it was real was likely to be to take it from him and examine it.

Fact: the police had to assess the risks, make a judgement call.

They did and opted to act to protect the public - many other children - around them.

Sarah x

I don't know because I don't know the circumstances of that incident. They would have assessed the risk in the same way.

If your child had been in that playground and had been shot because the police hesitated to shoot a child, what would you say? "
You know all the circumstances of this incident though?

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

Sarah x

I agree and they knew there was a high possibly it was a fake.

I don't know. How do we know that ?

Because the guy who phoned it in said he saw a gun on the kid but he wasn't sure if it was fake or not.

The operative phrase is "not sure". It's not a risk worth taking.

It's truly a tragedy and avoidable but the officer acted appropriately and in the interests of public safety.

It's a sad state if kids get shoot on assumption rather then fact.

Fact: the boy had not done as police told him.

Fact: the boy had pulled out a weapon and waved it around.

Fact: he was at a school surrounded by other kids.

Fact: he could easily have killed multiple people before anyone could get the gun to establish if it was real.

Fact: the only way to tell if it was real was likely to be to take it from him and examine it.

Fact: the police had to assess the risks, make a judgement call.

They did and opted to act to protect the public - many other children - around them.

Sarah x

I don't know because I don't know the circumstances of that incident. They would have assessed the risk in the same way.

If your child had been in that playground and had been shot because the police hesitated to shoot a child, what would you say? You know all the circumstances of this incident though?"

Enough to be sure the police acted appropriately, yes.

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

Again, if your child had been in that playground and had been shot because the police hesitated to shoot a child, what would you say?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Sarah x

I agree and they knew there was a high possibly it was a fake.

I don't know. How do we know that ?

Because the guy who phoned it in said he saw a gun on the kid but he wasn't sure if it was fake or not.

The operative phrase is "not sure". It's not a risk worth taking.

It's truly a tragedy and avoidable but the officer acted appropriately and in the interests of public safety.

It's a sad state if kids get shoot on assumption rather then fact.

Fact: the boy had not done as police told him.

Fact: the boy had pulled out a weapon and waved it around.

Fact: he was at a school surrounded by other kids.

Fact: he could easily have killed multiple people before anyone could get the gun to establish if it was real.

Fact: the only way to tell if it was real was likely to be to take it from him and examine it.

Fact: the police had to assess the risks, make a judgement call.

They did and opted to act to protect the public - many other children - around them.

Sarah x

I don't know because I don't know the circumstances of that incident. They would have assessed the risk in the same way.

If your child had been in that playground and had been shot because the police hesitated to shoot a child, what would you say? You know all the circumstances of this incident though?

Enough to be sure the police acted appropriately, yes."
Brilliant

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

None of us know all the circumstances.

That's why it's just as wrong to assume the officer is a murderer as it is to assume he isn't.

For those jumping in to say he intended to kill the boy, you're also making an assumption like you accuse the officer of doing with identifying a replica handgun ?

It's an abhorrent incident, but there's a lot of people commenting who've never been involved in any form of conflict management.

It's good to have objective _iews but also important to listen to a balanced perspective based on fact.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"None of us know all the circumstances.

That's why it's just as wrong to assume the officer is a murderer as it is to assume he isn't.

For those jumping in to say he intended to kill the boy, you're also making an assumption like you accuse the officer of doing with identifying a replica handgun ?

It's an abhorrent incident, but there's a lot of people commenting who've never been involved in any form of conflict management.

It's good to have objective _iews but also important to listen to a balanced perspective based on fact. "

wise words Vista

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Ok in this country I could believe that a 12 could be ignorant /nieve to gun law and may not understand the situation.

But in the states where everyone knows about gun crime and the seriousness of waving a gun real or fake in a public place, ignorance is not an excuse.

I feel dreadfully sorry for all those concerned and wish this sort of thing didn't happen.

But it does. Sadly.

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

"Ok in this country I could believe that a 12 could be ignorant /nieve to gun law and may not understand the situation.

But in the states where everyone knows about gun crime and the seriousness of waving a gun real or fake in a public place, ignorance is not an excuse.

I feel dreadfully sorry for all those concerned and wish this sort of thing didn't happen.

But it does. Sadly. "

I'm pretty sure that at 12 I knew taking something that looked like a real gun out in public and ignoring instructions from armed police is a stupid thing to do.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"None of us know all the circumstances.

That's why it's just as wrong to assume the officer is a murderer as it is to assume he isn't.

For those jumping in to say he intended to kill the boy, you're also making an assumption like you accuse the officer of doing with identifying a replica handgun ?

It's an abhorrent incident, but there's a lot of people commenting who've never been involved in any form of conflict management.

It's good to have objective _iews but also important to listen to a balanced perspective based on fact. "
"..a lot of people commenting who've never been involved in any kind of conflict management"

Sorry, what is it you said about assumptions?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"None of us know all the circumstances.

That's why it's just as wrong to assume the officer is a murderer as it is to assume he isn't.

For those jumping in to say he intended to kill the boy, you're also making an assumption like you accuse the officer of doing with identifying a replica handgun ?

It's an abhorrent incident, but there's a lot of people commenting who've never been involved in any form of conflict management.

It's good to have objective _iews but also important to listen to a balanced perspective based on fact. "..a lot of people commenting who've never been involved in any kind of conflict management"

Sorry, what is it you said about assumptions?"
there are a lot that's a fact that can be easily evidenced.

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

"None of us know all the circumstances.

That's why it's just as wrong to assume the officer is a murderer as it is to assume he isn't.

For those jumping in to say he intended to kill the boy, you're also making an assumption like you accuse the officer of doing with identifying a replica handgun ?

It's an abhorrent incident, but there's a lot of people commenting who've never been involved in any form of conflict management.

It's good to have objective _iews but also important to listen to a balanced perspective based on fact. "..a lot of people commenting who've never been involved in any kind of conflict management"

Sorry, what is it you said about assumptions?"

So, that question about your child being in the playground...?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"None of us know all the circumstances.

That's why it's just as wrong to assume the officer is a murderer as it is to assume he isn't.

For those jumping in to say he intended to kill the boy, you're also making an assumption like you accuse the officer of doing with identifying a replica handgun ?

It's an abhorrent incident, but there's a lot of people commenting who've never been involved in any form of conflict management.

It's good to have objective _iews but also important to listen to a balanced perspective based on fact. "..a lot of people commenting who've never been involved in any kind of conflict management"

Sorry, what is it you said about assumptions?

So, that question about your child being in the playground...?"
Sorry?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

In my humble opinion, it's the world we live in that's to blame NOT the young boy whose life was snubbed out.

It's our job as the parents to protect and educate our children. To let them know what is and what isn't risky or potentially dangerous behaviour. Yet he didn't die because he was potentially dangerous. He died because of the wide range of people from all walks of life who have gone on shooting sprees. He died because of the FEAR other people have created. It seems okay for just about anyone to have a firearm. It isn't guns that kill people, people kill people.

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By *ndecidedMan
over a year ago

London

That is true. There are some conflicting reports, like the cop was told it was probably fake when eh was called out, but there were reports of the kid scaring people with the gun too, and there were other children around.

In Britain, the usual procedure is to surround the suspect with armed police carrying visible guns and telling the suspect to drop the weapon. Surely doing something like this would have avoided this tragedy.

It is pretty hard to assess it properly after the event and only reading it off the news, though.

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

"None of us know all the circumstances.

That's why it's just as wrong to assume the officer is a murderer as it is to assume he isn't.

For those jumping in to say he intended to kill the boy, you're also making an assumption like you accuse the officer of doing with identifying a replica handgun ?

It's an abhorrent incident, but there's a lot of people commenting who've never been involved in any form of conflict management.

It's good to have objective _iews but also important to listen to a balanced perspective based on fact. "..a lot of people commenting who've never been involved in any kind of conflict management"

Sorry, what is it you said about assumptions?

So, that question about your child being in the playground...?Sorry?"

Look back, I've asked it twice.

If your child had been in that playground and had been shot because the police hesitated to shoot a child, what would you say? Would you commend the officers for their caution?

What would you think the police should do if you were there and your child was at risk of being shot and killed?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"None of us know all the circumstances.

That's why it's just as wrong to assume the officer is a murderer as it is to assume he isn't.

For those jumping in to say he intended to kill the boy, you're also making an assumption like you accuse the officer of doing with identifying a replica handgun ?

It's an abhorrent incident, but there's a lot of people commenting who've never been involved in any form of conflict management.

It's good to have objective _iews but also important to listen to a balanced perspective based on fact. "..a lot of people commenting who've never been involved in any kind of conflict management"

Sorry, what is it you said about assumptions?

So, that question about your child being in the playground...?Sorry?

Look back, I've asked it twice.

If your child had been in that playground and had been shot because the police hesitated to shoot a child, what would you say? Would you commend the officers for their caution?

What would you think the police should do if you were there and your child was at risk of being shot and killed?"
I'm not looking back up the thread..I know you asked it twice..I ignored it twice. I don't have to tell you anything regards myself and my child

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

"None of us know all the circumstances.

That's why it's just as wrong to assume the officer is a murderer as it is to assume he isn't.

For those jumping in to say he intended to kill the boy, you're also making an assumption like you accuse the officer of doing with identifying a replica handgun ?

It's an abhorrent incident, but there's a lot of people commenting who've never been involved in any form of conflict management.

It's good to have objective _iews but also important to listen to a balanced perspective based on fact. "..a lot of people commenting who've never been involved in any kind of conflict management"

Sorry, what is it you said about assumptions?

So, that question about your child being in the playground...?Sorry?

Look back, I've asked it twice.

If your child had been in that playground and had been shot because the police hesitated to shoot a child, what would you say? Would you commend the officers for their caution?

What would you think the police should do if you were there and your child was at risk of being shot and killed?

I'm not looking back up the thread..I know you asked it twice..I ignored it twice. I don't have to tell you anything regards myself and my child"

So why say "sorry?" if you knew what I meant.

I know why you are ignoring the question though. If your child had been in that playground and at risk of being shot, there wouldn't be a single question in your mind that the police should shoot the person holding the gun.

You can claim otherwise but I won't believe a word of it.

It's very easy to condemn the actions of the police when you had no personal stake in the outcome.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"None of us know all the circumstances.

That's why it's just as wrong to assume the officer is a murderer as it is to assume he isn't.

For those jumping in to say he intended to kill the boy, you're also making an assumption like you accuse the officer of doing with identifying a replica handgun ?

It's an abhorrent incident, but there's a lot of people commenting who've never been involved in any form of conflict management.

It's good to have objective _iews but also important to listen to a balanced perspective based on fact. "..a lot of people commenting who've never been involved in any kind of conflict management"

Sorry, what is it you said about assumptions?

So, that question about your child being in the playground...?Sorry?

Look back, I've asked it twice.

If your child had been in that playground and had been shot because the police hesitated to shoot a child, what would you say? Would you commend the officers for their caution?

What would you think the police should do if you were there and your child was at risk of being shot and killed?

I'm not looking back up the thread..I know you asked it twice..I ignored it twice. I don't have to tell you anything regards myself and my child

So why say "sorry?" if you knew what I meant.

You can claim otherwise but I won't believe a word of it.

It's very easy to condemn the actions of the police when you had no personal stake in the outcome."
I don't care what you believe

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

This is a terrible incident for all involved. If the gun the child had turned out to be real and the officer had prevented yet another mass murder in a school then he would be being hailed a hero now. Pupil on pupil murders are happening all the time over there, the poor cop had no possible way of identifying that gun as fake so he did what he had to do to protect the other pupils, the poor guy will have to live with that for the rest of his days.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Also as for teaching kids how to use firearms from a young age, no matter how much safety drill you drum into them there will always be a chance of accidents, look at the 9 year old girl who was given an oozi to shoot on a range, she lost control and killed her instructor. Also if kids have ready access to firearms then they don't have the maturity in their thought processes to stop and think about their actions, an argument with a friend could easily escalate into a murder, where your average kid might lash out with a fist, another may grab his dads gun and shoot his mate in the heat of the moment. Remove the guns and you remove the risk.

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

"None of us know all the circumstances.

That's why it's just as wrong to assume the officer is a murderer as it is to assume he isn't.

For those jumping in to say he intended to kill the boy, you're also making an assumption like you accuse the officer of doing with identifying a replica handgun ?

It's an abhorrent incident, but there's a lot of people commenting who've never been involved in any form of conflict management.

It's good to have objective _iews but also important to listen to a balanced perspective based on fact. "..a lot of people commenting who've never been involved in any kind of conflict management"

Sorry, what is it you said about assumptions?

So, that question about your child being in the playground...?Sorry?

Look back, I've asked it twice.

If your child had been in that playground and had been shot because the police hesitated to shoot a child, what would you say? Would you commend the officers for their caution?

What would you think the police should do if you were there and your child was at risk of being shot and killed?

I'm not looking back up the thread..I know you asked it twice..I ignored it twice. I don't have to tell you anything regards myself and my child

So why say "sorry?" if you knew what I meant.

You can claim otherwise but I won't believe a word of it.

It's very easy to condemn the actions of the police when you had no personal stake in the outcome.I don't care what you believe"

I don't care whether you care, so we're pretty much even there.

You know the truth of the matter is that it's easy to condemn with hindsight and without having had anything at stake in the situation.

It's easy to sit on one's high horse and judge when it's someone else who has the responsibility of making the decision and has to live with the consequences and when one has absolutely nothing to lose in the situation.

This police office deserves to suffer for acting to potentially save countless children? Ok, whatever.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"None of us know all the circumstances.

That's why it's just as wrong to assume the officer is a murderer as it is to assume he isn't.

For those jumping in to say he intended to kill the boy, you're also making an assumption like you accuse the officer of doing with identifying a replica handgun ?

It's an abhorrent incident, but there's a lot of people commenting who've never been involved in any form of conflict management.

It's good to have objective _iews but also important to listen to a balanced perspective based on fact. "..a lot of people commenting who've never been involved in any kind of conflict management"

Sorry, what is it you said about assumptions?

So, that question about your child being in the playground...?Sorry?

Look back, I've asked it twice.

If your child had been in that playground and had been shot because the police hesitated to shoot a child, what would you say? Would you commend the officers for their caution?

What would you think the police should do if you were there and your child was at risk of being shot and killed?

I'm not looking back up the thread..I know you asked it twice..I ignored it twice. I don't have to tell you anything regards myself and my child

So why say "sorry?" if you knew what I meant.

You can claim otherwise but I won't believe a word of it.

It's very easy to condemn the actions of the police when you had no personal stake in the outcome.I don't care what you believe

I don't care whether you care, so we're pretty much even there.

You know the truth of the matter is that it's easy to condemn with hindsight and without having had anything at stake in the situation.

This police office deserves to suffer for acting to potentially save countless children? Ok, whatever."
You don't care that I don't care...what are you so hung up about then, trying to get a reaction out of me? You're constantly quoting me, even when I've ignored you?

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By *its_n_piecesCouple
over a year ago

"It just astounds me how Americans are so enamored with their guns and that they refuse to give them up no matter how many people die Including their own kids.

Its their god given right.

I wonder how many people have to die before they understand they are twats.

When the criminals give up their guns maybe the law abiding citizens will consider giving up theirs."

peace through superior firepower then?

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By *emmefataleWoman
over a year ago

dirtybigbadsgirlville

" Remove the guns and you remove the risk. "
Lets take all over the counter medication off the market, lets stop all vehicles from being on the road too.....

Horrible thing to happen, I hope there is a full investigation, I feel for the parents and the onlookers....banning guns? Nope.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Its a sad event which ever way you look at it, but a by product of an enviroment. Over here if there is an up-surge in gun crime we have special police units and maybe people are brought in to the community to talk about gun crime and its effects. What we don't do is flood the area with guns for the general populance. Brits are no better than Americans, but give the average brit a firearm n they would be unfamilar with it. We get angry we pick up a brick, bottle or lump of wood even at times a knife. We tend not to pick up a semi automatic with hollow points, we would'nt know where to get them. Don't even get me started on "The right to bare arms” ffs it could mean you can wear short sleeves whenever you want. Part of a document written in 1776 correct me if I'm wrong. Could we have moved on from then? with more relevent concerns and needs. To those who teach their kids to shoot, good to be responsable but how about saying no until they are older then when they are young adults teaching them.

These are but my own thoughts and wish no offence to anyone.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Teach the little wanna be gangstaaa.

fed up with these little shits turning the world into one chavy scumbag ridden place to live.

I see it everyday in London and would love it if more get sorted out by our old bill

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex

"Teach the little wanna be gangstaaa.

fed up with these little shits turning the world into one chavy scumbag ridden place to live.

I see it everyday in London and would love it if more get sorted out by our old bill"

what shot dead!? Truly?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" Remove the guns and you remove the risk. Lets take all over the counter medication off the market, lets stop all vehicles from being on the road too.....

Horrible thing to happen, I hope there is a full investigation, I feel for the parents and the onlookers....banning guns? Nope."

Nobody said ban guns, ban kids from using them and having access to them

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By *emmefataleWoman
over a year ago

dirtybigbadsgirlville

" Remove the guns and you remove the risk. Lets take all over the counter medication off the market, lets stop all vehicles from being on the road too.....

Horrible thing to happen, I hope there is a full investigation, I feel for the parents and the onlookers....banning guns? Nope.

Nobody said ban guns, ban kids from using them and having access to them"
In the USA ,its never gonna happen.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Thankfully your "old bill" will never represent that mindset.

There are approximately 12000 firearms incidents annually in the UK. Thankfully there are very few shootings. Do they get it right all the time ? No. But it's pretty good statistics in such an environment.

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By *inaTitzTV/TS
over a year ago

Titz Towers, North Notts

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" Remove the guns and you remove the risk. Lets take all over the counter medication off the market, lets stop all vehicles from being on the road too.....

Horrible thing to happen, I hope there is a full investigation, I feel for the parents and the onlookers....banning guns? Nope.

Nobody said ban guns, ban kids from using them and having access to themIn the USA ,its never gonna happen."

Maybe not but that doesn't make it right does it

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

"None of us know all the circumstances.

That's why it's just as wrong to assume the officer is a murderer as it is to assume he isn't.

For those jumping in to say he intended to kill the boy, you're also making an assumption like you accuse the officer of doing with identifying a replica handgun ?

It's an abhorrent incident, but there's a lot of people commenting who've never been involved in any form of conflict management.

It's good to have objective _iews but also important to listen to a balanced perspective based on fact. "..a lot of people commenting who've never been involved in any kind of conflict management"

Sorry, what is it you said about assumptions?

So, that question about your child being in the playground...?Sorry?

Look back, I've asked it twice.

If your child had been in that playground and had been shot because the police hesitated to shoot a child, what would you say? Would you commend the officers for their caution?

What would you think the police should do if you were there and your child was at risk of being shot and killed?

I'm not looking back up the thread..I know you asked it twice..I ignored it twice. I don't have to tell you anything regards myself and my child

So why say "sorry?" if you knew what I meant.

You can claim otherwise but I won't believe a word of it.

It's very easy to condemn the actions of the police when you had no personal stake in the outcome.I don't care what you believe

I don't care whether you care, so we're pretty much even there.

You know the truth of the matter is that it's easy to condemn with hindsight and without having had anything at stake in the situation.

This police office deserves to suffer for acting to potentially save countless children? Ok, whatever.You don't care that I don't care...what are you so hung up about then, trying to get a reaction out of me? You're constantly quoting me, even when I've ignored you?"

You wouldn't want the police officer to suffer psychologically for the rest of his life, which you described as GOOD if your child had been in the playground.

You won't admit it to us. You may not even admit it to yourself.

It's easy to judge with hindsight and when you had nothing at stake.

Wishing the police officer pain and suffering for a split second decision taken to potentially save the lives of other children is abhorrent.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"None of us know all the circumstances.

That's why it's just as wrong to assume the officer is a murderer as it is to assume he isn't.

For those jumping in to say he intended to kill the boy, you're also making an assumption like you accuse the officer of doing with identifying a replica handgun ?

It's an abhorrent incident, but there's a lot of people commenting who've never been involved in any form of conflict management.

It's good to have objective _iews but also important to listen to a balanced perspective based on fact. "..a lot of people commenting who've never been involved in any kind of conflict management"

Sorry, what is it you said about assumptions?

So, that question about your child being in the playground...?Sorry?

Look back, I've asked it twice.

If your child had been in that playground and had been shot because the police hesitated to shoot a child, what would you say? Would you commend the officers for their caution?

What would you think the police should do if you were there and your child was at risk of being shot and killed?

I'm not looking back up the thread..I know you asked it twice..I ignored it twice. I don't have to tell you anything regards myself and my child

So why say "sorry?" if you knew what I meant.

You can claim otherwise but I won't believe a word of it.

It's very easy to condemn the actions of the police when you had no personal stake in the outcome.I don't care what you believe

I don't care whether you care, so we're pretty much even there.

You know the truth of the matter is that it's easy to condemn with hindsight and without having had anything at stake in the situation.

You wouldn't want the police officer to suffer psychologically for the rest of his life, which you described as GOOD if your child had been in the playground.

You won't admit it to us. You may not even admit it to yourself.

It's easy to judge with hindsight and when you had nothing at stake.

Wishing the police officer pain and suffering for a split second decision taken to potentially save the lives of other children is abhorrent."
LOL

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Teach the little wanna be gangstaaa.

fed up with these little shits turning the world into one chavy scumbag ridden place to live.

I see it everyday in London and would love it if more get sorted out by our old bill

what shot dead!? Truly?"

No I mean chavvy little gangsta wanna be angry shitbags..

One did get shot near me btw yesterday

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By *emmefataleWoman
over a year ago

dirtybigbadsgirlville

" Remove the guns and you remove the risk. Lets take all over the counter medication off the market, lets stop all vehicles from being on the road too.....

Horrible thing to happen, I hope there is a full investigation, I feel for the parents and the onlookers....banning guns? Nope.

Nobody said ban guns, ban kids from using them and having access to themIn the USA ,its never gonna happen.

Maybe not but that doesn't make it right does it"
Until they get rid of the second amendment, it does.

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By *B9 QueenWoman
over a year ago

Over the rainbow, under the bridge

"I wonder if had been possible to shoot to disable rather than kill?

Sadly children's body's are smaller and less robust so more essential organs in a small space.

Stories like this will always be rife when a country has such a 'gun culture'. "

It was just a question which was politely answered earlier in the thread.

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By *exyLancs2Couple
over a year ago

Manchester

It also has to be said that mass shootings/murders in school environments are not unknown in the USA.

Given the circumstancs they were presented with, the police had no choice. It will be a decision that had to be taken quickly, but not lightly. I'm sure the officer feels terrible about it and will be traumatised. For those that say 'good' shame on you.

Just glad we don't have a gun culture here.

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By *its_n_piecesCouple
over a year ago

incidents like these in america seem to be getting reported quite a lot at the moment ..... no doubt the anti gun lobby in the usa now has more backing from the media ..... the most disturbing being the shooting of akai gurley in dubious circumstances ... it's only correct that the americans stop and ask which way do we want to go from here

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" Remove the guns and you remove the risk. Lets take all over the counter medication off the market, lets stop all vehicles from being on the road too.....

Horrible thing to happen, I hope there is a full investigation, I feel for the parents and the onlookers....banning guns? Nope.

Nobody said ban guns, ban kids from using them and having access to themIn the USA ,its never gonna happen.

Maybe not but that doesn't make it right does itUntil they get rid of the second amendment, it does."

That makes it legal not right. And what I said was that kids shouldn't be taught to use firearms from a young age, I didn't say "ban guns". To put medication and cars in the same bracket as allowing kids to use guns is a bit silly, we don't allow kids to use cars or have access to medication do we. Some people argue just for the sake of arguing, how can arming children ever be a good thing in a civilised world. This 12 year old has been shot dead because of the numerous school shootings over the years which no doubt was at the forefront of the officers thoughts when he made the decision to shoot, had the students who carried out these numerous shootings not had access to firearms in the first place and weren't taught how to use them then maybe this 12 year old may still be alive to go home to his parents.

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By *emmefataleWoman
over a year ago

dirtybigbadsgirlville

" Some people argue just for the sake of arguing, "
I totally agree.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" Some people argue just for the sake of arguing, I totally agree."
that could have gone another way !!

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By *its_n_piecesCouple
over a year ago

" Some people argue just for the sake of arguing, I totally agree."

i disagree

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" Some people argue just for the sake of arguing, I totally agree.

i disagree

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

Alternatively sometimes people argue because they don't agree with a comment or point of _iew.

Teaching children to use and respect guns, (sensibly, in a controlled environment*), is not the same as arming children.

*Letting a nine year old shoot an Uzi is not a sensible way to teach a child to shoot.

Nobody is advocating teaching children to shoot and giving them unrestricted access to guns! Teaching gun safety and respect of guns can only be a good thing.

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By *ratty_DamselWoman
over a year ago

Greater London

After reading this, I feel sorry for the silly boy who should know that when a copper orders you to put a gun down (whether it's real or not, you fucking well put it down FAST) but especially for the copper. He is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.....

He can only go on what he has been told. He warned the boy. Boy ignored him.

Imagine if it had been a real gun and used?

Fancy telling a mass of parents their child is dead.....

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By *emmefataleWoman
over a year ago

dirtybigbadsgirlville

"Alternatively sometimes people argue because they don't agree with a comment or point of _iew.

Teaching children to use and respect guns, (sensibly, in a controlled environment*), is not the same as arming children.

*Letting a nine year old shoot an Uzi is not a sensible way to teach a child to shoot.

Nobody is advocating teaching children to shoot and giving them unrestricted access to guns! Teaching gun safety and respect of guns can only be a good thing."
For once I agree with you!

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

"Alternatively sometimes people argue because they don't agree with a comment or point of _iew.

Teaching children to use and respect guns, (sensibly, in a controlled environment*), is not the same as arming children.

*Letting a nine year old shoot an Uzi is not a sensible way to teach a child to shoot.

Nobody is advocating teaching children to shoot and giving them unrestricted access to guns! Teaching gun safety and respect of guns can only be a good thing.For once I agree with you!

Oh my god! Femme is ill! MEDIC!

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By *emmefataleWoman
over a year ago

dirtybigbadsgirlville

"Alternatively sometimes people argue because they don't agree with a comment or point of _iew.

Teaching children to use and respect guns, (sensibly, in a controlled environment*), is not the same as arming children.

*Letting a nine year old shoot an Uzi is not a sensible way to teach a child to shoot.

Nobody is advocating teaching children to shoot and giving them unrestricted access to guns! Teaching gun safety and respect of guns can only be a good thing.For once I agree with you!

Oh my god! Femme is ill! MEDIC!

"
*checks temperature*

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By *issHottieBottieWoman
over a year ago

Kent

"After reading this, I feel sorry for the silly boy who should know that when a copper orders you to put a gun down (whether it's real or not, you fucking well put it down FAST) but especially for the copper. He is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.....

He can only go on what he has been told. He warned the boy. Boy ignored him.

Imagine if it had been a real gun and used?

Fancy telling a mass of parents their child is dead....."

This is what I think, damned if you do.

If they hadn't taken action and it was a real gun the copper would of been blasted for doing nothing.

Anyone saying 'well he was told it probably was a fake gun...' Judgement calls need to be made, he was told to put his hands up by the officer and instead chose to reach for the weapon, with there being a big problem with gangs and young kids carrying weapons the officer didn't exactly have time to ring his mum and ask if he was a nice kid with a toy gun!!

Years back when I worked in a pub a young couple had had a few drinks and got a replica toy thing from somewhere and were waving it around the high street, they came in the pub for a drink but the toy gun was in the girls bag at this point. Suddenly 3 policemen burst through the door and questioned the couple. They told the coppers where it was and they confiscated it. I suppose that could of ended very differently too.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Alternatively sometimes people argue because they don't agree with a comment or point of _iew.

Teaching children to use and respect guns, (sensibly, in a controlled environment*), is not the same as arming children.

*Letting a nine year old shoot an Uzi is not a sensible way to teach a child to shoot.

Nobody is advocating teaching children to shoot and giving them unrestricted access to guns! Teaching gun safety and respect of guns can only be a good thing."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" .

surely they should have double checked first his poor parents"

SORRY

No if he was waving something that looked like a gun and police acted on it good on them. sorry that its a 12 year old oy but he knew what he was doing waving a gun around

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By *emmefataleWoman
over a year ago

dirtybigbadsgirlville

"Alternatively sometimes people argue because they don't agree with a comment or point of _iew.

Teaching children to use and respect guns, (sensibly, in a controlled environment*), is not the same as arming children.

*Letting a nine year old shoot an Uzi is not a sensible way to teach a child to shoot.

Nobody is advocating teaching children to shoot and giving them unrestricted access to guns! Teaching gun safety and respect of guns can only be a good thing.

Surely not allowing kids anywhere near guns is a better option, you can teach respect of guns without allowing them to use them. You don't allow kids to play with fire to teach them how dangerous it is. "
Its a way of life and part of their culture for a lot of people in the States, so no, thats not gonna happen.

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By *avebi48Man
over a year ago

Lordswood

according to news reports the attending officers may not have been told it may not have been real. They'd have had to use their own judgement at the scene in any case and when faced with a potentially lethal weapon the response is pretty obvious really, as happened.

There were comments like why didn't they use a stun gun, seriously!

Next will probably be the race backlash unfortunately.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Alternatively sometimes people argue because they don't agree with a comment or point of _iew.

Teaching children to use and respect guns, (sensibly, in a controlled environment*), is not the same as arming children.

*Letting a nine year old shoot an Uzi is not a sensible way to teach a child to shoot.

Nobody is advocating teaching children to shoot and giving them unrestricted access to guns! Teaching gun safety and respect of guns can only be a good thing.

Surely not allowing kids anywhere near guns is a better option, you can teach respect of guns without allowing them to use them. You don't allow kids to play with fire to teach them how dangerous it is. Its a way of life and part of their culture for a lot of people in the States, so no, thats not gonna happen."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Teach the little wanna be gangstaaa.

fed up with these little shits turning the world into one chavy scumbag ridden place to live.

I see it everyday in London and would love it if more get sorted out by our old bill

what shot dead!? Truly?

No I mean chavvy little gangsta wanna be angry shitbags..

One did get shot near me btw yesterday"

Where do these 'chavvy little gangsta wanna be angry shitbags' come from?

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By *CSmoothMan
over a year ago

Northampton

Interesting reading these comments, but no one is addressing the elephant in this situation. There is a polarised mindset that exist in the USA between African American and the wider white community. The Police tend to shoot first when faced with the AA community, yet on several occasions we see wider community kids, shooting in schools and walking around with assault weapons in public places and they walk away alive..... It's a sad situation, but this is the true undercurrent that runs through these situations... If that kid was not black, he would ba alive...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 24/11/14 14:06:23]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Ok in this country I could believe that a 12 could be ignorant /nieve to gun law and may not understand the situation.

But in the states where everyone knows about gun crime and the seriousness of waving a gun real or fake in a public place, ignorance is not an excuse.

I feel dreadfully sorry for all those concerned and wish this sort of thing didn't happen.

But it does. Sadly.

I'm pretty sure that at 12 I knew taking something that looked like a real gun out in public and ignoring instructions from armed police is a stupid thing to do."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Interesting reading these comments, but no one is addressing the elephant in this situation. There is a polarised mindset that exist in the USA between African American and the wider white community. The Police tend to shoot first when faced with the AA community, yet on several occasions we see wider community kids, shooting in schools and walking around with assault weapons in public places and they walk away alive..... It's a sad situation, but this is the true undercurrent that runs through these situations... If that kid was not black, he would ba alive..."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Next will probably be the race backlash unfortunately.

You were right there mate. Didn't take long did it

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Next will probably be the race backlash unfortunately.

You were right there mate. Didn't take long did it"

Took 9 hours but he like you is entitled to his opinion.

He has a point to be fair.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Sarah x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It just astounds me how Americans are so enamored with their guns and that they refuse to give them up no matter how many people die Including their own kids.

Its their god given right.

I wonder how many people have to die before they understand they are twats.

When the criminals give up their guns maybe the law abiding citizens will consider giving up theirs.

peace through superior firepower then?

No, peace through an equal playing field.

Think about it logically. If criminals didn't have guns then law abiding citizens wouldn't feel the need to have guns. As it happens many criminals have guns in America and people have the right to defend themselves and their families. By the time the police arrive it could already be too late and an innocent family could be destroyed.

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By *CSmoothMan
over a year ago

Northampton

He can only go on what he has been told. He warned the boy. Boy ignored him.

Imagine if it had been a real gun and used?

Fancy telling a mass of parents their child is dead....."

Interesting how you have spun this story to suit your judgement. But I guess that's what we all do... Fact, there were more than one police office there (serveral) actually... Only one of those offices fired on the kid... Why?

Another report says the kid did not draw the weapon, but lifted his top and was shot in the process... I guess there will be many points of _iew on this over the coming weeks...

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By *icefellatwoMan
over a year ago

hastings

In America its dangerous to play with guns

and imitation guns .

He wont do it again.

And hopefully it might stop others but I doubt it

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By *avebi48Man
over a year ago

Lordswood

he does, not sure if the stats support the _iew but I've not looked for them myself. To make an even handed _iew you'd need to take race % into account on gun incidents as well as who got shot.

No info on the race of the officers involved yet, not that it should make a difference but likely it will to some, esp in the area it happened.

Given a recent gun incident there I can understand why this happened, dumb kid really, respect for law is an issue with younger generations here as well as there. He's no longer in the gene pool by his own actions, darwin award won. Sorry if that sounds harsh but at 12 he'd know what he should have done, paid the ultimate price for his bravado in front of his mates.

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By *avebi48Man
over a year ago

Lordswood

"It just astounds me how Americans are so enamored with their guns and that they refuse to give them up no matter how many people die Including their own kids.

Its their god given right.

I wonder how many people have to die before they understand they are twats.

When the criminals give up their guns maybe the law abiding citizens will consider giving up theirs.

peace through superior firepower then?

No, peace through an equal playing field.

Many criminals here have guns too, do we feel the need to arm ourselves? Unfortunately its written in their constitution and they are unlikely to ever rewrite that part even with the mass shootings that happen.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What's the point in arguing over something we've got a tried and tested solution for.

7 counties had gun massacres that caused a backlash and firearms were banned And guess what...... gun crime dropped through the floor

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It just astounds me how Americans are so enamored with their guns and that they refuse to give them up no matter how many people die Including their own kids.

Its their god given right.

I wonder how many people have to die before they understand they are twats.

When the criminals give up their guns maybe the law abiding citizens will consider giving up theirs."
if all law abiding citizens gave up their guns police would know whose the badies and have no qualms about shooting a baddy

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By *CSmoothMan
over a year ago

Northampton

"he does, not sure if the stats support the _iew but I've not looked for them myself. To make an even handed _iew you'd need to take race % into account on gun incidents as well as who got shot.

No info on the race of the officers involved yet, not that it should make a difference but likely it will to some, esp in the area it happened.

Maybe the kid was lifting his top to show the officers where the fake weapon is... and a trigger happy office saw an opportunity.

One less Nigger on the street... Darwin Award to the police office with the real gun... Shot a 12 year old kid...

A few years ago these same kids were simple hung by the neck from trees by similar men...... Not sure this the best use of Darwins theories ... But then I never was much of a Darwin fan.... Think i will bow out of this thread and leave you to it...

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By *emmefataleWoman
over a year ago

dirtybigbadsgirlville

"he does, not sure if the stats support the _iew but I've not looked for them myself. To make an even handed _iew you'd need to take race % into account on gun incidents as well as who got shot.

No info on the race of the officers involved yet, not that it should make a difference but likely it will to some, esp in the area it happened.

Maybe the kid was lifting his top to show the officers where the fake weapon is... and a trigger happy office saw an opportunity.

One less Nigger on the street... Darwin Award to the police office with the real gun... Shot a 12 year old kid...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Sarah x"

Of course it was racially motivated. Had the kid been white the cops would have allowed him to have shit several people first.

What a stupid fucking argument.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What an absolute tragedy for everyone involved

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I don't have all the facts so don't jump on me if I'm wrong but from memory, most of the mass shooting in schools have been committed by white kids, most of them have ended up dead, either by their own hand or by the police. The only incidents it can think of where the shooters were black were the two that were sniping from a hide in the boot of a car and picking off random people in the street,neither of those two men were killed by the police, both are in jail alive and well. It's unfortunate that incidents such as this give rise to accusations of racism. At the end of the day a kid walking round a school with a gun is looking to get shot by the police wether they are black white yellow or brown. I honestly don't think race is a factor in such cases.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Unfortunate but you can't expect someone to be shot at first before taking action. It makes you think about what sort of guns or if toy guns should even be available for kids.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"What's the point in arguing over something we've got a tried and tested solution for.

7 counties had gun massacres that caused a backlash and firearms were banned And guess what...... gun crime dropped through the floor

Yet look at Switzerland. They have more guns per capita than the US and yet one of the world's lowest crime figures....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don't have all the facts so don't jump on me if I'm wrong but from memory, most of the mass shooting in schools have been committed by white kids, most of them have ended up dead, either by their own hand or by the police. The only incidents it can think of where the shooters were black were the two that were sniping from a hide in the boot of a car and picking off random people in the street,neither of those two men were killed by the police, both are in jail alive and well. It's unfortunate that incidents such as this give rise to accusations of racism. At the end of the day a kid walking round a school with a gun is looking to get shot by the police wether they are black white yellow or brown. I honestly don't think race is a factor in such cases. "

Totally agree...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Sarah x

Of course it was racially motivated. Had the kid been white the cops would have allowed him to have shit several people first.

What a stupid fucking argument."

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By *avebi48Man
over a year ago

Lordswood

hmmm, unless we as the entire human race can accept that past history with all its flaws and issues is the past and try to move forward then _iews like this will always be raised by the "minorities". KKK etc was a terrible thing, I totally agree, but what happened was in the hands of a kid and a possible live weapon.

Reports also say he was waving it around but not pointing it at the police. A stun gun even if it could have been used would likely result in spasms that cause the trigger to be pulled and someone getting shot. What's the law supposed to do in this sort of case? I've seen kids of 12 selling drugs here in the UK, but they're only kids, right?

FYI my kids are all mixed, as am I, being of a different/darker colour doesn't make racism exclusive, it's unpleasant and I do know that from personal experience. If one of my kids had been in his situation I'd hope they would show the good sense to comply. One I do worry about and if this happened to him (he's come close by all accounts), unfortunate by the area his mum chooses to live and his choice of friends, yes I'd be upset but also would be able to see why.

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By *avebi48Man
over a year ago

Lordswood

"What's the point in arguing over something we've got a tried and tested solution for.

7 counties had gun massacres that caused a backlash and firearms were banned And guess what...... gun crime dropped through the floor

Yet look at Switzerland. They have more guns per capita than the US and yet one of the world's lowest crime figures...."

yes, but you've military service there so all are trained in how to use guns etc. Different entirely

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By *issHottieBottieWoman
over a year ago

Kent

"he does, not sure if the stats support the _iew but I've not looked for them myself. To make an even handed _iew you'd need to take race % into account on gun incidents as well as who got shot.

No info on the race of the officers involved yet, not that it should make a difference but likely it will to some, esp in the area it happened.

Maybe the kid was lifting his top to show the officers where the fake weapon is... and a trigger happy office saw an opportunity.

One less Nigger on the street... Darwin Award to the police office with the real gun... Shot a 12 year old kid...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"What's the point in arguing over something we've got a tried and tested solution for.

7 counties had gun massacres that caused a backlash and firearms were banned And guess what...... gun crime dropped through the floor

Yet look at Switzerland. They have more guns per capita than the US and yet one of the world's lowest crime figures....

yes, but you've military service there so all are trained in how to use guns etc. Different entirely"

Therein lies one of my points - training.

I've sat the NRA concealed carry course/exam, it's crap! America loves it's guns, which is great. Sadly America (or a portion of) doesn't respect it's guns.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

happinesswill: I agree it's ridiculous the amount of people who die every year in USA from gun shots

Twice as many people are killed with baseball bats over there every year.

Seems like Americans just want to die. Maybe we should let them.

Its tragic and sad but will continue to happen until Americans wake up. "

I’d love to know where you get that information from. In Britain, since the total ban on hand guns in 1997, gun crime has increased almost every year up until recently.

I can’t remember a single case of a ‘Drive-By’ shooting before 1997 whereas now there seems to be at least one or two each year.

The reality is that simplistic solutions very seldom produce the desired result and often have the opposite result to that intended.

I doubt very much that just simply banning guns in the US would make any real difference to gun crime there as, if it’s made any difference here at all, it seems to have made things worse

For the record. I’ve never owned a gun myself and would never want to. About 4 times in my life I have shot ’22 rifles or air rifles on controlled ranges and maybe a few more times at Fair Grounds.

I’ve no vested interest in allowing guns and would not support a reversal of the current laws but let’s no breach to our friends on the other side of the pond about what to do when what we have done has so clearly failed to solve the problem.

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By *its_n_piecesCouple
over a year ago

"Yet look at Switzerland. They have more guns per capita than the US and yet one of the world's lowest crime figures...."

that's not the full story ..... all men between the ages of 20 and 30 (34 for officers) are conscripted as militia and they are required by law to keep their weapons at home. in the 90's there was a monumental surge in crime that involved guns. in 2007 a referendum was held and it was decided that all military issued ammunition was to be returned and crime involving guns reduced dramatically. out of all murders in switzerland 43 out of 50 involve guns. gun law in switerland is rigorously enforced including (amongst others) several extremely thorough audits of weapons and ammunition every year and many people are prosecuted for contravention of these strict controls including allowing guns to be stolen from a property during burglary. it's not just a case of dishing out licences and letting people get on with it. other statistics on swiss gun politics are available.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Alternatively sometimes people argue because they don't agree with a comment or point of _iew.

Teaching children to use and respect guns, (sensibly, in a controlled environment*), is not the same as arming children.

*Letting a nine year old shoot an Uzi is not a sensible way to teach a child to shoot.

Nobody is advocating teaching children to shoot and giving them unrestricted access to guns! Teaching gun safety and respect of guns can only be a good thing.

Gbiggy: Surely not allowing kids anywhere near guns is a better option, you can teach respect of guns without allowing them to use them. You don't allow kids to play with fire to teach them how dangerous it is. "

Actually we used to have a real fire at home when I was a kid. I remember my dad teaching me how to set it and light it safely when I was about 8 years old

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yet look at Switzerland. They have more guns per capita than the US and yet one of the world's lowest crime figures....

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

BlackTC: Interesting reading these comments, but no one is addressing the elephant in this situation. There is a polarised mindset that exist in the USA between African American and the wider white community. The Police tend to shoot first when faced with the AA community, yet on several occasions we see wider community kids, shooting in schools and walking around with assault weapons in public places and they walk away alive..... It's a sad situation, but this is the true undercurrent that runs through these situations... If that kid was not black, he would ba alive..."

If you changed that last line to ‘he might probably be still alive’ I’d find it easier to agree with you.

However what is totally clear and true is that, white or black, if he had not been waving what looked like a real gun around he would definitely still be alive now

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Sarah x

Of course it was racially motivated. Had the kid been white the cops would have allowed him to have shit several people first.

What a stupid fucking argument."
yawn

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By *its_n_piecesCouple
over a year ago

"Yet look at Switzerland. They have more guns per capita than the US and yet one of the world's lowest crime figures...."

sorry but i also forgot to mention that america has 90 guns per 100 residents (the highest in the world) ... switzerland has 46 guns per 100 residents (fourth highest in the world)

which roughly transcribes as switerland having half as many guns per capita as america does

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There are only four facts to this argument

1) pro gun people will think anti gun people are wrong.

2) anti gun people will think pro gun people are wrong.

3) there is no right answer

4) you will not get the other side to agree.

I for one have been in similar situations, and I have lost a collegue to making the opposite call to the officer in the article. In his case the gun was very real.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Sarah x

Of course it was racially motivated. Had the kid been white the cops would have allowed him to have shit several people first.

What a stupid fucking argument.

yawn "

One could say the same for your arguments. but let's just blame it on racism because it's easier than using intelligence while having a discussion.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Maybe the statistics I have about Switzerland are incorrect/out of date. Happy to admit when/if I'm wrong.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

if he had not been waving what looked like a real gun around he would definitely still be alive now"

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By *iewMan
Forum Mod
over a year ago

Angus & Findhorn

if he had not been waving what looked like a real gun around he would definitely still be alive now

very sad

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Sarah x

Of course it was racially motivated. Had the kid been white the cops would have allowed him to have shit several people first.

What a stupid fucking argument.

yawn

One could say the same for your arguments. but let's just blame it on racism because it's easier than using intelligence while having a discussion."
... Yawn

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

Sarah x

Of course it was racially motivated. Had the kid been white the cops would have allowed him to have shit several people first.

What a stupid fucking argument.

yawn

One could say the same for your arguments. but let's just blame it on racism because it's easier than using intelligence while having a discussion.... Yawn"

Your debating ability is truly remarkable.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Sarah x

Of course it was racially motivated. Had the kid been white the cops would have allowed him to have shit several people first.

What a stupid fucking argument.

yawn

One could say the same for your arguments. but let's just blame it on racism because it's easier than using intelligence while having a discussion.... Yawn

Your debating ability is truly remarkable."

No need to debate, the racism card has been played all other arguments are null and void...

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By *CSmoothMan
over a year ago

Northampton

If you changed that last line to ‘he might probably be still alive’ I’d find it easier to agree with you.

However what is totally clear and true is that, white or black, if he had not been waving what looked like a real gun around he would definitely still be alive now"

I can only respectfully disagree.. There have been a number of incedents between the police and AA youths that have not been reported in the UK.

The Ferguson situation was an unarmed 18yr old shoot six times. Twice in the head when his hands were in the air....

We British have a romantic _iew of the USA, but the undercurrent of racial separation within that country, in the 21st century is astonishing.

If this factor does not form a part of your evaluation of this incedent, then you are missing an important element..

Don't take my word for it... Really don't..!! If you are interested, simply take a casual look at the social construct / communication across various media streams.... It will surprise you... It did me, and I only worked there for a short period...

I could talk at length on my experience and I was a visitor to the country.. My reprieve, my English accent... Even then my accent was only noticeable to those who had traveled... Some simply did not believe I came from England., and thought I was from another state..... Astonishing, but true... Continue to paint your own picture on this very sad situation, at the end of the day, a child with a toy gun was shot dead by law enforcement, it will be justified and the majority community will sleep easy with that knowledge....... That's astonishing to me and always will be, but, On that note, I will definitely bow out now...

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By *emmefataleWoman
over a year ago

dirtybigbadsgirlville

Sarah x

Of course it was racially motivated. Had the kid been white the cops would have allowed him to have shit several people first.

What a stupid fucking argument.

yawn

One could say the same for your arguments. but let's just blame it on racism because it's easier than using intelligence while having a discussion.... Yawn

Your debating ability is truly remarkable.

No need to debate, the racism card has been played all other arguments are null and void...

"
It was to be expected.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It just astounds me how Americans are so enamored with their guns and that they refuse to give them up no matter how many people die Including their own kids.

Its their god given right.

I wonder how many people have to die before they understand they are twats.

When the criminals give up their guns maybe the law abiding citizens will consider giving up theirs.

Then it will never happen then but I have to wonder why they think it's ok to give children guns. Idiots.

This kid had a toy which had the Orange tips removed. Who's to say he didn't do this himself?

You've just lost my high option of you. You're a fool and I hope you never regret that.

That's cool, you're entitled to your opinion, obviously. My kids don't have free access to guns and they only shoot at a gun club under strict supervision and I, myself, am a trained marksman.

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

Sarah x

Of course it was racially motivated. Had the kid been white the cops would have allowed him to have shit several people first.

What a stupid fucking argument.

yawn

One could say the same for your arguments. but let's just blame it on racism because it's easier than using intelligence while having a discussion.... Yawn

Your debating ability is truly remarkable.

No need to debate, the racism card has been played all other arguments are null and void...

It was to be expected.

Now I am agreeing with you!

NURSE!!

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By *emmefataleWoman
over a year ago

dirtybigbadsgirlville

Sarah x

Of course it was racially motivated. Had the kid been white the cops would have allowed him to have shit several people first.

What a stupid fucking argument.

yawn

One could say the same for your arguments. but let's just blame it on racism because it's easier than using intelligence while having a discussion.... Yawn

Your debating ability is truly remarkable.

No need to debate, the racism card has been played all other arguments are null and void...

It was to be expected.

Now I am agreeing with you!

NURSE!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

In the army you get 8yr old snipers, who blow ya mates brains everywhere,we miss the point about him been asked TWICE to raise his hands! Kids shud do as they are told, when I was a kid if I didn't do as I was told, I ad a kick up the *ss.I was learnt to repect ppl in uniform,how old was the lad who shot a load of kids in a school. Where was the schoolyard supervistors?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Guns do not belong in a civilised country. As long as the American gun lobby continue to believe in their God given right to take up arms there will be tragedies like this.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If you changed that last line to ‘he might probably be still alive’ I’d find it easier to agree with you.

However what is totally clear and true is that, white or black, if he had not been waving what looked like a real gun around he would definitely still be alive now

I can only respectfully disagree.. There have been a number of incedents between the police and AA youths that have not been reported in the UK.

The Ferguson situation was an unarmed 18yr old shoot six times. Twice in the head when his hands were in the air....

We British have a romantic _iew of the USA, but the undercurrent of racial separation within that country, in the 21st century is astonishing.

If this factor does not form a part of your evaluation of this incedent, then you are missing an important element..

Thing is, we're discussing this one incident not the whole system. I'd agree that in some states of the US racism is well and truly alive and kicking. From all sides too....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Guns do not belong in a civilised country. As long as the American gun lobby continue to believe in their God given right to take up arms there will be tragedies like this. "

They have their place, and it's most certainly not in a toybox.

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By *its_n_piecesCouple
over a year ago

with america having 5% of the worlds population whilst owning 50% of the worlds fire-arms, is it any wonder that incidents like these are happening in the USA all too often.

i urge everyone on this thread to google the news over the weekend of the shooting of an unarmed man by the name of Akai Gurley and take stock of what's been said here .... it is the most tragic thing i have heard for a quite some time ... a truely saddening story for everyone concerned

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You have to look at the detail to see the drop in the figures.

It's no good saying ah look in 1995 we had 4 gun deaths but today we have 24, so a jump up of twenty seems like it's not worked however if you compare us to a similar country who didn't ban firearms you would see that there's has gone up from 4 to 164.

Now that shows that firearms being banned here had a net dramatic affect downwards. Now you could say it's differences in culture not just weapons being banned.

However if you look at all the counties combined who's prohibited them in some ways, it's not just us who did it Australia, new Zealand, France, Germany, Argentina,Switzerland and Japan literally banned everything and their gun murders are about 2 a year, that in a country of 100 million,you would see that they ask have had dramatic net losses on firearm crime.

I would actually say ours are still far too lenient in my mind

A ten year mandatory sentence for ownership of illegal weapons , no exceptions (that includes that army guy who brought in some), and a total ban on all firearms except say for shotguns, and even these I would prohibit if there's any criminal record or mental health issue at all.

To me in the 21st century in a country like ours,there is absolutely no need to have one, be it for sporting purposes or hunting. And those that wish to argue that there trained and they like it and it's locked up safe.I would say sorry but it's a chance not with taking. And I urge you to look at those 16 little kids faces from dunblane who would now be in their 20,s and say enoughs enough.

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