FabSwingers.com forum: My best friend at school is a psycopath

By *he tactile technician OP Man
over a year ago

the good lands, the bad lands, the any where you may want me lands

Is it time that children were screened for mental health disorder before a school accepted their application to attend? My view is that any health screening, whatever, by anyone other than on a recommendation from your GP for personal health related matters is wrong. The British Insurance Association; for obvious reasons, thinks otherwise. What do people think?

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

Nope, in my opinion it's an idea that wouldn't work in practice because a) psychopathic or sociopathic tendencies tend to develop with age so might not be detectable and b) where would the psychopaths be educated? Education for all is a basic human right.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Erm, no.

At what point do you draw the line between a quirk, a disorder, a unique and interesting way of thinking?

a single-minded focus and a mental disorder?

Do you include anxiety disorders, leading to excessive sweating? What about those which may manifest in antisocial reactions?

Epilepsy? Eating disorders?...

Anyone with a problem, ship em out. But who decides where the line is. What if you are on the wrong side of it?

...hang on, maybe that's what they do already... There are certain parts of Newcastle which are decidedly dodgy.

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

What makes you think a GP is best qualified to make a recommendation when mental health is not their specialty?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"What makes you think a GP is best qualified to make a recommendation when mental health is not their specialty? "

When I had severe anxiety and depression my GP's first piece of advice was to stop thinking. If I wasn't so ill I would have laughed at her

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

"What makes you think a GP is best qualified to make a recommendation when mental health is not their specialty?

When I had severe anxiety and depression my GP's first piece of advice was to stop thinking. If I wasn't so ill I would have laughed at her "

I hope you didn't take her advice and got the help you needed.

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex

I think it would lead to the screening being outsourced to a company that would provide their employees with a set of tick box questions, leading to thousands of children being diagnosed incorrectly and labelled for life.

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By *ratty_DamselWoman
over a year ago

Greater London

A lot of children do have a mental health disorder before starting school such as ADHD, ASD and many more...,. Yet schools and education authorities are still extremely reluctant to give them the help and support actually needed to reach their potential.

Unsupported mental health issues frequently lead onto other conditions.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"What makes you think a GP is best qualified to make a recommendation when mental health is not their specialty?

When I had severe anxiety and depression my GP's first piece of advice was to stop thinking. If I wasn't so ill I would have laughed at her

I hope you didn't take her advice and got the help you needed."

I couldn't take her advice. Eventually I was made an appointment with a specialist

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By *ratty_DamselWoman
over a year ago

Greater London

GP stands for General Practitioner.... Not a specialist in any field and certainly NOT qualified to diagnose MH conditions. Is qualified to refer on however, which is what should have happened.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

A psychopath isnt classed as a mental disorder.

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

Education is not a Human Right. Its a privilige

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By *ratty_DamselWoman
over a year ago

Greater London

"A psychopath isnt classed as a mental disorder.

If this is your opinion could you explain why it's in the DSM, please?

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By *ratty_DamselWoman
over a year ago

Greater London

"Education is not a Human Right. Its a privilige"

Everyone has the right to an education. This is a basic human right under the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

Tell that go a Nomadic Tribesman

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Being a psychopath doesn't mean your a mass murderer but it probably makes you a better stock broker!

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By *ratty_DamselWoman
over a year ago

Greater London

"Tell that go a Nomadic Tribesman"

Probably get a more coherent discussion with them than some on this thread.....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Education is a right.

Universal Declaration of Human Rights

International Covenant on Social Economic and Cultural Rights

Convention on the Rights of a child

UNESCO Convention against discrimination in education

UN Special Rapporteur on the Right to Education

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By *ratty_DamselWoman
over a year ago

Greater London

"Education is a right.

Universal Declaration of Human Rights

International Covenant on Social Economic and Cultural Rights

Convention on the Rights of a child

UNESCO Convention against discrimination in education

UN Special Rapporteur on the Right to Education"

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

The right to education in the UK stops at school leaving age under the Education Act. Tell a university that you have a right to education if you have no money that its your human right under the UN Declaration. Read your answer as you leave without a place on course

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Thats a non-argument.

At no point has anyone suggested that the right to education exists until some infinite point in a persons life.

You also accept that there is a right to education by virtue of your last post

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By *ratty_DamselWoman
over a year ago

Greater London

"Is it time that children were screened for mental health disorder before a school accepted their application to attend? My view is that any health screening, whatever, by anyone other than on a recommendation from your GP for personal health related matters is wrong. The British Insurance Association; for obvious reasons, thinks otherwise. What do people think?"

I agree with you totally. MH disorders ups the premium for insurance cover so that's why the BIA are probably keen. A money maker for them straight off.

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By *ratty_DamselWoman
over a year ago

Greater London

"The right to education in the UK stops at school leaving age under the Education Act. Tell a university that you have a right to education if you have no money that its your human right under the UN Declaration. Read your answer as you leave without a place on course "

Incorrect answer.....

Depending on the needs of the person it could last until the age of 25 under the EC&H plan.

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

Under the Education Act children are compelled to attend School. Failure can mean a fine or jail for parents.

Its an imposition and not a right.

WD have the the absolute right not to be tortured but not the absolute right to life.

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

And after 25 ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Under the Education Act children are compelled to attend School. Failure can mean a fine or jail for parents.

Its an imposition and not a right.

WD have the the absolute right not to be tortured but not the absolute right to life.

Not the absolute right to life? Please explain

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By *ratty_DamselWoman
over a year ago

Greater London

"And after 25 ? "

What happens after 25 has NO BEARING on your argument does it. The fact of the matter is you where actually incorrect in your post that education is a privilege rather than a right....

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By *ratty_DamselWoman
over a year ago

Greater London

"Under the Education Act children are compelled to attend School. Failure can mean a fine or jail for parents.

Its an imposition and not a right.

WD have the the absolute right not to be tortured but not the absolute right to life.

What does this have to do with your opinion on education???

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By *ratty_DamselWoman
over a year ago

Greater London

Someone is turning into Mr Tangent man.....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I would imagine that the way big business works, the psychometric testing of children looking for psychopathic tendencies would be more for their own future employment aspects.

I mean every insurance assessor I've ever met was a psychopath and didn't citi bank or Morgan Stanley get fined for actively recruiting psychopaths if I remember correctly

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

The point I make is that so many people talk of Human Rights when no such Rights exist. Under the Human Rights Act 1998 we have an Absolute right not to be tortured but only a Qualified Right to life.

The right to education is not an Absolute Right but a Qualified one.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The point I make is that so many people talk of Human Rights when no such Rights exist. Under the Human Rights Act 1998 we have an Absolute right not to be tortured but only a Qualified Right to life.

The right to education is not an Absolute Right but a Qualified one."

Thats not an explanation, how is the right to life qualified?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think it would lead to the screening being outsourced to a company that would provide their employees with a set of tick box questions, leading to thousands of children being diagnosed incorrectly and labelled for life. "

This is exactly what would happen. There are not enough qualified mental health practitioners to be screening every child for everything. And why stop at children? What about those of us who are already adults?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm also pretty sure there's no consistent, definitive screening process available to diagnose psychopathy, it's extremely subjective. Arguably, a good psychopath might be able to cheat a simple screening process by telling the assessor what social norms have told them that they want to hear.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm also pretty sure there's no consistent, definitive screening process available to diagnose psychopathy, it's extremely subjective. Arguably, a good psychopath might be able to cheat a simple screening process by telling the assessor what social norms have told them that they want to hear. "

PCL_R Assessment as devised by Professor Hare used to be the norm, don't know whether it still is. It does throw up a number of anomalies however, and that is inherent in mental health.

Diagnosis of symptoms for one, does not necessarily mean that it is a yard stick for another

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

Under UK law I have no right at all to torture you. That right is absolute.

If you attack me and I believe my life is in danger then I have the protection of law to take your life. I do not have the right to torture you. Our right to life is qualified.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Under UK law I have no right at all to torture you. That right is absolute.

If you attack me and I believe my life is in danger then I have the protection of law to take your life. I do not have the right to torture you. Our right to life is qualified.

Thats incorrect, you do not have the protection of the law to take my life.

Self Defence is not a complete defence to murder.

Article 2 is not qualified.

Article 8,9,10, and 11 for instance are qualified rights

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

Absoloutly. The right to life is not absolute. Thats why police marksmen can shoot armed suspects and not be prosecuted

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

PCL_R Assessment as devised by Professor Hare used to be the norm, don't know whether it still is. It does throw up a number of anomalies however, and that is inherent in mental health.

Diagnosis of symptoms for one, does not necessarily mean that it is a yard stick for another"

Yes but there's disagreement about it's use even within the profession. And it's a sliding scale, a gradient of psychopathy, so where would the line be drawn? Anyone who displayed any psychopathic traits wouldn't be allowed a school place, in case those developed further?

And given that currently schools' funding is linked to their number of pupils, could popular and oversubscribed schools afford to refuse anyone who didn't score almost perfect on such a screening, condemning children with potential mental health issues to low achieving or sub-standard schools?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Absoloutly. The right to life is not absolute. Thats why police marksmen can shoot armed suspects and not be prosecuted "

Thats a different argument than the argument you initially raised in respect of self defence.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"What makes you think a GP is best qualified to make a recommendation when mental health is not their specialty?

When I had severe anxiety and depression my GP's first piece of advice was to stop thinking. If I wasn't so ill I would have laughed at her "

many GPs and hospital doctors and nurses have very little understanding of mental health, my sister had suffered all her life with mental health problems she self harms, I remember a time I took her to the hospital because she had been cutting herself and she had gone really deep with one cut and hit a vain, the hospital doctor who delt with her answer was to talk to her like she was 2 year old telling her what a naught girl she had been

and to stitch her with no anathetic, , he said if she felt the pain she may think twice about doing it again

like dealing with mental health problems is that easy

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

...and back on track:

Can we or should we exclude people from school or anywhere else based on somebody's opinion that they have a higher probability to do something bad than someone else?

What about stopping them going on public transport, or the shops, or your street?

A mental enough question without asking who we can murder and under what circumstances!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

awful awful idea, would mean more children being segregated for being 'different' the school always told me i had adhd and that i could never get the grades, also had anxiety issues because they made me feel different to everyone else then the depression kicks in so school slipped parents got in trouble cause i wasnt there and ended up getting sent to a shrink that was totally useless and had a basic grasp of english.

if kids need help they should get it through the proper channels not from small minded teachers and gps that just fill you with drugs, back then if u shock me i would have sounded like a smarties tube and none of it helped.

so no i dont think there should be anything in place unless a child needs it. they should feel confident enough to be able to go to someone with their problems and not made to feel different

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

Everyone should be able to be educated without interference from others and be safe while doing so.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"...and back on track:

Can we or should we exclude people from school or anywhere else based on somebody's opinion that they have a higher probability to do something bad than someone else?

What about stopping them going on public transport, or the shops, or your street?

A mental enough question without asking who we can murder and under what circumstances!"

Apologies i just responded to the points being made.

As far as your post is concerned, its a interesting point isn't it.

If we seek to exclude those who may have this statistical probability we are considering prediction and using this as a form of detention.

is that the same as a 'thought crime' minority report etc.

Do we want to be in a society where we either detain or restrict the movement of others to such an extent even without a crime being committed?

not forgetting that there are numerous who display psychopathic or sociopathic tendencies that never commit a crime and are in fact incredibly successful.

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By *unky monkeyMan
over a year ago

in the night garden

Why do psychopaths always get a bad rap? 99% of them are perfectly functional, contribute to society and don't kill people much.

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

Should we segregate the more able to help them achieve higher?

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

"Education is not a Human Right. Its a privilige"

Privilege.....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Should we segregate the more able to help them achieve higher?"

You can already do that within schools themselves through streaming and setting. 'Segregate' sounds a bit extreme.

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

Are Grammar schools a form of segregation ?

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By *ratty_DamselWoman
over a year ago

Greater London

"Everyone should be able to be educated without interference from others and be safe while doing so. "

Tom, is your nickname 'flip flop', by any chance?

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By *ratty_DamselWoman
over a year ago

Greater London

"Education is not a Human Right. Its a privilige

Privilege....."

I take it that the numerous laws already mentioned have made no impact or else you never read the threads.....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"A psychopath isnt classed as a mental disorder.

If this is your opinion could you explain why it's in the DSM, please?

It's not treatable like say schizophrenia.

A psychopath is harder to detect. You can't put any one away for what they might do - only if they have plans which shows specific intent.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The inability to feel remorse or guilt does not make you a born killer.

It certainly helps but then it probably helps in the ability to cheat on your partner as well!!,there's probably a whole raft of other influences in someone's life needed to enable the trigger for crossing the line into mental breakdown.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"A lot of children do have a mental health disorder before starting school such as ADHD, ASD and many more...,. Yet schools and education authorities are still extremely reluctant to give them the help and support actually needed to reach their potential.

Unsupported mental health issues frequently lead onto other conditions.

Cos it's all about the money.

I'm in a battle right now with our local education authority. It's insane. They have lied to me repeatedly and because I sought advice before responding to them, they made phone calls behind my back to check whether I was telling the truth!

In the midst of all this is a little kid who needs help to stop getting so anxious at school. It makes me furious.

If they spent less money on paperwork and covering their tracks and more on listening to parents and supporting schools we may get somewhere..

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

Remorse or no remorse. Should they lock him up for life and throw away the key ?

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By *ratty_DamselWoman
over a year ago

Greater London

Unsupported mental health issues frequently lead onto other conditions.

Cos it's all about the money.

In the midst of all this is a little kid who needs help to stop getting so anxious at school. It makes me furious.

If they spent less money on paperwork and covering their tracks and more on listening to parents and supporting schools we may get somewhere.."

I suggest you look at IPSEA if you haven't already. Good luck.

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By *ratty_DamselWoman
over a year ago

Greater London

"Remorse or no remorse. Should they lock him up for life and throw away the key ?"

Of course not..... He is a child.

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By *om Tom 1969Man
over a year ago

liverpool

All of this should be left to the experts,,,,,Daily Mail readers!!

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By *carineMan
over a year ago

Armthorpe, Doncaster

No. They should lock him up for ten months, then release him to house arrest for 4 years.

And then he can write a book and appear on chat shows to promote it.

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By *ratty_DamselWoman
over a year ago

Greater London

"A psychopath isnt classed as a mental disorder.

If this is your opinion could you explain why it's in the DSM, please?

It's not treatable like say schizophrenia.

A psychopath is harder to detect. You can't put any one away for what they might do - only if they have plans which shows specific intent. "

It not a treatable disorder but it is a disorder all the same.....but that is not what you originally said.

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

"All of this should be left to the experts,,,,,Daily Mail readers!!"

The experts often get it wrong. Lessons learned though. Never happen again ...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Unsupported mental health issues frequently lead onto other conditions.

Cos it's all about the money.

In the midst of all this is a little kid who needs help to stop getting so anxious at school. It makes me furious.

If they spent less money on paperwork and covering their tracks and more on listening to parents and supporting schools we may get somewhere.."

Sarah x

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

Your right. Its all about the money

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 04/11/14 22:16:35]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Hes in the right place now.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 04/11/14 22:45:03]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Best as i can remember, not a single child at my comprehensive had ADHD or any other fashionable order. Probably hadn't been invented then. OK, there were many naughty kids, me among em. My dad wasn't a Dr. but he sorted out any excessive behaviour.

Times have changed for the better?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Nope, in my opinion it's an idea that wouldn't work in practice because a) psychopathic or sociopathic tendencies tend to develop with age so might not be detectable and b) where would the psychopaths be educated? Education for all is a basic human right. "

I have been watching a fair bit on these traits on the internet and yes you are right the tendencies develop over time.....some serial killers start on small animals as children, sociopaths have no remorse,as for the school issue the fact is teachers are scared to even tell children off now you can't call children naughty etc etc no wonder they struggle with discipline it was good enough in my day...........

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

""Nope, in my opinion it's an idea that wouldn't work in practice because a) psychopathic or sociopathic tendencies tend to develop with age so might not be detectable and b) where would the psychopaths be educated? Education for all is a basic human right. "

When did you expect the tendencies to start, from birth maybe a newborn wrapping the cords round the mother's neck would be a clue.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

no some disorders like multiple personality disorders come out with heightened emotional stress and pregnancy just to name a few.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

When did you expect the tendencies to start, from birth maybe a newborn wrapping the cords round the mother's neck would be a clue.

Gosh yes that would be it.....how silly of all the physchiatrists and physcologists to miss that!!! Ridiculous!!! I take it you have devised a test for pregnant women to let them know if there unborn is a physco or not???

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By *ratty_DamselWoman
over a year ago

Greater London

Times have changed for the better?"

So I guess you must be pretty old then....? Maybe for starters re ADHD you could google 'fidgety Philip' or look at Prof Tom Brown's work. Plenty of scientific evidence to prove the disorders that you appear to sneer at actually do exist..... But then I guess you don't really want to look for that either because it may change your view!!!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

When did you expect the tendencies to start, from birth maybe a newborn wrapping the cords round the mother's neck would be a clue.

99pc of psychopaths lead perfectly normal life's with no animal torture at all. However if you've got a psychopath with sociological issues who's mental health has deteriorated to that extent.... I hardly doubt a telling off from the teacher will cure him

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 05/11/14 00:13:43]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

When did you expect the tendencies to start, from birth maybe a newborn wrapping the cords round the mother's neck would be a clue.

That's a valid point there was a program on last year about them and there are other personality issues that are far more likely to cause problems in society. Screening only ends up marginalising groups or people rather than trying to integrate them successfully into society.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

A psychopath is also known as a personality disorder. A personality disorder cannot be diagnosed until the person is 18 as the personality is not fully formed until then.

It's not the child's fault they were exposed to trauma to make them a psycho

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 05/11/14 00:15:51]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

When did you expect the tendencies to start, from birth maybe a newborn wrapping the cords round the mother's neck would be a clue.

I actually said ''some serial killers start on small animals as children''

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"A psychopath is also known as a personality disorder. A personality disorder cannot be diagnosed until the person is 18 as the personality is not fully formed until then.

It's not the child's fault they were exposed to trauma to make them a psycho"
your born a sociopath it's like being born gay, your wired differently it's not something that nurture inflicts upon you.

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By *ratty_DamselWoman
over a year ago

Greater London

"A psychopath is also known as a personality disorder. A personality disorder cannot be diagnosed until the person is 18 as the personality is not fully formed until then.

It's not the child's fault they were exposed to trauma to make them a psycho your born a sociopath it's like being born gay, your wired differently it's not something that nurture inflicts upon you."

Been shown beyond any doubt that the brain is different.....

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

Lots of debate in the papers today on the sentence. Some say the death penalty.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 05/11/14 16:39:32]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Times have changed for the better?"

Yes, a lot of these orders hadn't been "discovered" back then.

Instead parents were blamed. Kids were beaten. That anti-social kid in your class was called a nerd.

Now (thankfully!!!) we know these kids are ADHD. They have autism or Aspergers.

And instead of becoming depressed, disillusioned dysfunctional adults with low self esteem, they are given support in school to use their unique gifts.

I don't know much about ADHD beyond their ability to hyper-focus on things far beyond what a "typical" person can do. Similar to autism.

Yes my kids may struggle to sit still, but they also have amazing gifts. But without the correct support those gifts will be lost.

As an adult with traits of Asperger syndrome myself, I wish I'd known as a kid. I could have understood then that I wasn't "failing" at life. That I had to work harder at some thing and found other things easier than the other kids. I wish I'd had that knowledge as a child.

But instead, yeah I was the nerdy kid no one wanted to play with. This affected my self esteem all through my life until my kids were born with the same disorder and I realised I had it too!

So. YES times have changed for the better. It's still not perfect. But we're getting there.

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

Was the tariff of twenty years too lenient ?

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