FabSwingers.com forum: Sex, Work & Equal Opportunities

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Imagine you have to pick between two jobs.

A) Is a same gender workspace, no members of the opposite sex. The perks of the job is that strippers are regularly employed to come in and lap dance employees. The workspace is therefore highly sexualised and highly enjoyable.

B) An equal opportunities workspace, employing people of both genders, but in which there is a zero tolerance of anything sexual and even flirting could get you pulled in on sexual harassment charges.

Which would you pick?

Do you think equal opportunities are, by necessity, tied to the desexing of the workspace... or is there another way? Do you think that a paranoid sexual harassment culture is only a slippery slope to an intolerance to other things in the workplace such as humour? Or do you think, once sex is finally taken out of the work space completely, we'll all be happier and work harder?

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

You haven't said if job b is highly enjoyable or not.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

And enjoying a sexualised environment is not the same as preventing unwanted sexual attention.

Also, sexual harassment can happen within same gender groups.

Basically I think the whole premise is flawed.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I wouldn't want strippers and lap dancers coming into my work place at all so B.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

i have no idea - would depend on job and such - did have a thought though - just applied for a new job a week or so ago - standard sheet at the end - british white - and i ticked heterosexual - then as i presssed send i thought hmmm wonder if others would tick the bisexual box - outside fab world im not known as bi - maybe i should have the courage of my convictions - has been on my mind a few times since

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By *oe_Steve_NWestCouple
over a year ago

Bolton

The 2 scenarios are seriously flawed and the 1st one is totally unrealistic! Why would you need strippers and lap dancers just cos it was a totally same sex environment? I go to work to work and enjoy sex when i'm not working -

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The way I connote it, the first is the fun one but at the expense of my views towards the opposite sex. Those strippers are no doubt paid strippers who willingly do what they do, though, so that's their choice, no matter how tacky.

The second I have worked for. It's all fun and laughter until you get through the door first thing, and then you have to edit yourself into oblivion at the expense of your soul.

If I would have to choose, and I can think of better choices than these, I would go with the first one, simply so I didn't have to edit myself and pretend to be so fucking uptight.

Those strippers better be classy though, or I'm hiding in the WC cubicle until it's over

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Sorry I probably ballsed the initial question up. I think CrazyCrazyKnight summed up the choice much better. I was suggesting that, in this day of sexual harassment, we appear to have a choice between...

A) A free uncensored workspace which is one gender only, and in which outrageous things can be done such as hiring strippers etc... this is the kind of workspace we might imagine all-male teams sometimes have up in the city. Or...

B) A more just workspace which promotes equal opportunities but is essentially straight jacketed by political correctness so much that there is a somewhat un-natural air to the whole thing... a place where you have to edit yourself as CrazyCrazyKnight said

Some of you have said this is a flawed or false choice. Is that because you believe a mixed gender workspace can be sexy and fun without feeling the threat of a sexual harassment law suit? Or is it because you believe that a sexualised workplace is actually a bad thing and so the second choice would be more enjoyable than the first?

I'm really just trying to explore why sexual harassment and equal opportunities seem to be so tied to each other

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

From the majority of my experiences, and I've had a lot of different jobs over the years, i find that equality has done two things majorly:

1.) Made men and women equally degraded by politically correct busybodies.

2.) Simply changed the code in which people attempt to screw each other over.

People now have the means to get in your face and treat you like shit wihtout you having done or said anything, so long as they conform to policy.

One place I worked in up until half a decade ago, I was one of the harder worker there, to the point where people were telling me to take it easy and leave something for them to do.

On the other end of that scale, I was officially warned for telling the one person that sat on their arse all day to do some work and stop leaving it for everybody else.

Apparently, I was a sexist and discriminate bully who had a problem with overweight people. I was and still am classed as overweight. But that is one instance of the sheer stupidity of political correctness in the work place, especially since everybody else had the decency to correct the allegations.

So long as people are professional in their jobs and fair towards each other, we don't need bars on our mouths, let alone the windows.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

just bumping this... ignore the top post.. my previous post sums it up better. I'm hoping to get a female perspective on this.

Would a woman prefer to work in an all-women work place where they could crack outrageous jokes about blokes and get male strippers in to lift their spirits?

Do women accept that their presence in the work place automatically means heavy rules about desexualising the workspace... or do they think that equality can happen without creating a contrived, self-editing, desexualised workplace?

If so... how could a business allow flirtation and sexiness alongside equal opportunities... and steer clear of creating a paranoid and stiflingly controlled atmosphere?

thx for any insight here

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Scenario A sound like a bunch of knobs.

Scenario B sound like they are led by a bunch of knobs.

I'll stick with scenario C - people employed for being good at what they do.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"just bumping this... ignore the top post.. my previous post sums it up better. I'm hoping to get a female perspective on this.

Would a woman prefer to work in an all-women work place where they could crack outrageous jokes about blokes and get male strippers in to lift their spirits?

If so... how could a business allow flirtation and sexiness alongside equal opportunities... and steer clear of creating a paranoid and stiflingly controlled atmosphere?

thx for any insight here

We have flirting and outrageous sexual innuendo. Only with some people though- the key is knowing who NOT to do it with. Work is for work, not strippers. There's a time and a place for it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

B.) is an odd one as flirting can mean something different to a lot people.

I asked a girl at work work how her weekend was. Apparently that was flirting according to her as I word of warning from my manager.

He agreed it was stupid though

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

Si,going by your third post you are placing all the blame of sexual harassment at the feet of women in the work force? Not the men who think.with their little heads instead of their big ones?

And I will say again....sexual harassment can happen among single sex groups as well!! Or are there no gay or bi people in your utopia?

Also male strippers are good for a laugh but not a sexual experience for me I have to say.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Equal oppurtunities is not about treating

people equally, but treating them as individuals. We all have different needs, and our personalities are different, basing on that, both your scenarios are flawed.

I work in an all female environment and it's great. We have a laugh, and my select clique where the chat is downright filthy, no subject is taboo. I would feel sorry for a man coming into work with us, he'd be eaten alive

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

In my previous career I worked for various large corporations and loathed the stifling corporate atmospheres of them. Now I am setting up my own business I like the idea of creating something youthful, vibrant, fun, and sexy. I agree that all-male teams up in the city are often knobs... but I do think there is a fun and vibrancy there which, if you've ever been in contact with such companies, is wayyy more inspiring and desirable than a stifling office environment. I just worry that this freer team culture is only possible in same gender scenarios.

How can I, as a business man, create a business that includes equal opportunities, rules about sexual harassment, and yet also take some of this fun craziness which films like 'the wolf on wall street' portray? Have I just got to find open minded as well as skilled women when I'm going through the employment process? Perhaps ask potential employees for their opinions on flirting in the workplace? Or would that question itself constitute sexual harassment? Lol it's a quagmire

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"In my previous career I worked for various large corporations and loathed the stifling corporate atmospheres of them. Now I am setting up my own business I like the idea of creating something youthful, vibrant, fun, and sexy. I agree that all-male teams up in the city are often knobs... but I do think there is a fun and vibrancy there which, if you've ever been in contact with such companies, is wayyy more inspiring and desirable than a stifling office environment. I just worry that this freer team culture is only possible in same gender scenarios.

Don't employ knobs

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"B.) is an odd one as flirting can mean something different to a lot people.

I asked a girl at work work how her weekend was. Apparently that was flirting according to her as I word of warning from my manager.

He agreed it was stupid though "

That! There's the problem right there.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What's the pay like for the two jobs?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Don't employ knobs "

Are you inferring it's a male problem or would you say I shouldn't employ female 'knobs' either?

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By *iss_tressWoman
over a year ago

London

"just bumping this... ignore the top post.. my previous post sums it up better. I'm hoping to get a female perspective on this.

Would a woman prefer to work in an all-women work place where they could crack outrageous jokes about blokes and get male strippers in to lift their spirits?

If so... how could a business allow flirtation and sexiness alongside equal opportunities... and steer clear of creating a paranoid and stiflingly controlled atmosphere?

thx for any insight here

We have flirting and outrageous sexual innuendo. Only with some people though- the key is knowing who NOT to do it with. Work is for work, not strippers. There's a time and a place for it."

This!!!

I work for a trade union where everybody minds their ps and qs but there are male colleagues black and white I'm "outrageous" with.

You have to know you're audience!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Personally I would keep sex out of the professional environment. It's asking for trouble. Where is the boundary? For e.g if two people who flirt, end up as a couple how do you lay the boundary of what is acceptable and what isn't.

How would you deal with colleagues who find all this 'new approach' uncomfortable?

I am a manager and have had to deal with workplace romances. And it's never pretty. It effects production and work performance. Not the mention the ball ache when they have rowed. Not a nice environment for anyone

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Some great answers everyone thx

I think the solution is going to be in employing women who have an open mind to boisterous sexual work environments. If I was recruiting for work on an oil rig I think I'd be able to explain to a woman applying that the guys work hard and that, as a perk, we allow them to shoot their mouths off and be lads, get strippers in, and basically blow off steam and if the woman isn't gonna be comfortable with that she should think about working elsewhere. I would, of course, explain that we have a low tolerance for sexual harassment... but that our definition of harassment is a little different from the norm.

Does that sound like a practical solution? Or would that class as sexual discrimination? Or would it not even be applicable in law? i.e. the woman would be able to sue for sexual harassment regardless

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

I haven't read the thread as I'm tired and a bit d*unk.

The Kirsty Wark Blurred Lines documentary featured some research which shows that if you are sexist/misogynistic then things that support that reinforce your behaviour, such as jokes in the workplace.

We haven't achieved equal pay yet let alone parity in the workplace. Sexualising the workplace only makes it fun for some. For others it makes work unbearable.

I choose to work in the asexual environment.

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

"Some great answers everyone thx

It sounds like you want a frigging male oriented workplace where if the woman doesn't comply she is made to feel like the 'bad sport'. Basically, the workplaces where women struggle to make it unless they become one of the lads or take the sexual harassment. The status quo.

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

The slippery slope argument never wins any favour from me. Everything needs to be judged on the facts here and now. I prefer the second of the two very limited options, as unrealistic and surreal as they appear. I believe strongly in equality for all. People should also be treated as human and not robotic production devices, and so tolerance and respect needs to be incorporated within work cultures. Why such a narrow unrealistic faux choice!

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By *ratty_DamselWoman
over a year ago

Greater London

No I definitely think there is a time and a place. Innocent flirting etc is fine but only between people who enjoy it. Otherwise its awful to be on the receiving end.

A very true _xpression is 'don't shit on your own doorstep'....

Can you also imagine the sexual jealousy etc

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

I've read through now.

You are conflating equality and sexual harassment. That conflation only works if you accept that both are degrading, oppressive and bullying.

Equality is about addressing difference to achieve parity and a broadly similar, if not the same, outcome.

Harassment is about making life uncomfortable for sport or through malicious intent.

In your ideal, free, flirty workplace what happens when someone feels bullied? My guess is they lose their livelihood as they are no longer acting free and flirty. The only people truly free to behave as they want are those in power. As long as seeing women as being allowed to work anywhere persists then they don't have the power.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I now the OP was a bit crap... I think CrazyCrazyKnight's first post said it better. There have been a run of threads lately by guys describing women being overtly sexual in a work setting and almost everyone's response has been cynical and negative; that the women are trying to entrap them and get them fired. It is this implicit sexism shown on the forum, not by me, that I'm getting scared of as an employer. So I really just wanted to explore whether it's a problem that relates to an equal opportunities workplace... that's why I made the stupid options.

I think the wisest answer is that it's more about the type of people I employ.

Lickety... I'm not really looking to make the kind of work place you described... I'm just thinking out loud really as I'd ideally love a mixed gender workplace... but I want to try and avoid many of the problems I feel businesses suffer from i.e. a heavily corporatised stuffy and stale environment where people have to seriously censor what they say and do. I'm gonna be asking a lot from my work force.. and I'd like to think they should be able to party as hard as they work

How we party will be gender neutral.. so no... it won't be like a macho oil rig... but it might be something I would be able to warn potential employees about.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I think all I'm looking for is a humorous and flirtatious work environment. I would definitely impose a sexual harassment rule but the onus would be on the word 'harassment' rather than the word 'sexual'. I think those who said too much sexiness in a work environment is distracting could well be right... so maybe, ultimately, all I'm after is a move away from PC corporate culture and a feeling of it being a free and natural space, where people can flirt a bit and laugh a bit... just as long as they aren't harassing anyone.

The trouble with current definitions of sexual harassment is that the perpetrator is always wrong. They are only ever innocent if the event didn't happen. If it did happen, no matter how little it is, they are guilty. I would prefer it if I could fire the person claiming sexual harassment if I felt they had either deliberately entrapped a fellow employee or if I felt they were making a mountain out of a mole hill. However, I suspect the law would not allow me to do that. Anyone know the answer to that one?

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

"I now the OP was a bit crap... I think CrazyCrazyKnight's first post said it better. There have been a run of threads lately by guys describing women being overtly sexual in a work setting and almost everyone's response has been cynical and negative; that the women are trying to entrap them and get them fired. It is this implicit sexism shown on the forum, not by me, that I'm getting scared of as an employer. So I really just wanted to explore whether it's a problem that relates to an equal opportunities workplace... that's why I made the stupid options.

I think the wisest answer is that it's more about the type of people I employ.

How we party will be gender neutral.. so no... it won't be like a macho oil rig... but it might be something I would be able to warn potential employees about."

I have run many organisations. I have tested out my ideas on workplace culture, equality and fairness. I have never had a stuffy workplace. I have also had workplaces where both genders and all sexualities have thrived and achieved their individual potentials.

What I have learnt over my twenty years running organisations is that I have to set the tone and model the culture. That means addressing bad behaviours and not encouraging them. It means being consistent. It means ensuring everyone knows where the boundaries lie. It means ensuring that everyone feels safe.

I know I have been successful at this because those that have worked with me tell me so, describing working for me as the most fun they have had at work.

The bottom line isn't the fun workplace but running a successful business that doesn't go bust. Staff at loggerheads because of inappropriate sexual harassment isn't productive. Unproductive workplaces don't make a profit. Sexual/racial/etc. suits are expensive in time, money, stress and loss of reputation.

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

"I think all I'm looking for is a humorous and flirtatious work environment. I would definitely impose a sexual harassment rule but the onus would be on the word 'harassment' rather than the word 'sexual'. I think those who said too much sexiness in a work environment is distracting could well be right... so maybe, ultimately, all I'm after is a move away from PC corporate culture and a feeling of it being a free and natural space, where people can flirt a bit and laugh a bit... just as long as they aren't harassing anyone.

How does the bullied prove they have been bullied? Your mountain out of a mole hill might be at a much higher tolerance level to someone else. You'd fire the victim as they hadn't met your standard of being able to tolerate a "joke"?

Does saying your tits look good in that top make your work better? Does it make someone self conscious and uneasy?

Please watch Blurred Lines and read Everyday Sexism.

I am actually a little sickened by some of the comments in your posts. Ultimately, you will set the tone for your company and if people are scared enough that you are going to sack them you will get away with a fair amount in your fiefdom. However, one day someone will have taken all they can take from you and your good old boys and will sue the arse off you.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"What I have learnt over my twenty years running organisations is that I have to set the tone and model the culture. That means addressing bad behaviours and not encouraging them. It means being consistent. It means ensuring everyone knows where the boundaries lie. It means ensuring that everyone feels safe."

I think you just nailed it!

Unhappy workspaces are places where you don't know the rules or the rules are changing all the time depending on who does what. Consistency in approach, led from the top, then everyone knows what the rules are, what they're dealing with, and as long as that is unbiasedly maintained and any changes to the rules are made clear to all personnel.. and the rules allow for a fun and natural work environment... I think you've nailed it

However, I want my team to be my family. So I may need to set rules about speaking plainly when possible rather than resorting to corporate speak, as well as engaging with the person as a human being rather than a 'team member'. One office where I worked we were referred to by number

So I'm gonna try and avoid that crap.

In this way it can be company policy to allow humour and light flirting but to not allow sexual harassment or any other kind of unwarranted harassment... including harassing an employee to get the work done if there's no evidence that they're not getting the work done. (yep worked at one of them too)

I'm gonna be glad when I have someone more experienced with running businesses on my team. At least I know how not to run a business lol

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So... I can stop sweating over my own reply then? lol

One of the ladies above said that equality isn't about being treated equally but about everybody being accepted and appreciated as an individual.

Somebody make her an MP, please. This is exactly what this country needs to understand. Instead of motivating the workforce by making them feel welcome and an actual part of the business, we're pressured and micro-managed and we are all treated equally bad.

Transparency is a word that's treated like the plague and it's just fucked how people are used against each other to see who's got what it takes to replace the top dog. I hate how corporate everything is now.

And another thing; how is it that corporate policy doesn't seem to have to follow actual laws? I can't stand people trying to hammer into my head that we have privileges, not rights, and that those can be taken away at will.

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

I think you just nailed it!

So I'm gonna try and avoid that crap.

I'm gonna be glad when I have someone more experienced with running businesses on my team. At least I know how not to run a business lol

Part of my work is supporting chief execs and helping establish effective and efficient working practices.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I am actually a little sickened by some of the comments in your posts. Ultimately, you will set the tone for your company and if people are scared enough that you are going to sack them you will get away with a fair amount in your fiefdom. However, one day someone will have taken all they can take from you and your good old boys and will sue the arse off you.

I'm sorry to hear that lickety

I really just wanted to explore a set of ideas (that most people would pillory me for even taking time to question) on a website populated by more sexually liberated people. I know some on here believe this sexual liberation belongs firmly behind closed doors or in secret underground clubs... But I feel our culture as a whole would benefit from more flirting and more sexual liberation. The difficult question is how to bring that into a workplace in a practical way. I'm sure, in talking about it, I have sounded like some old misogynist from the 1970's... and I apologize if I've come across that way. Instead I was looking for people's opinions on a possible third way... a way of being an equal opportunities employer AND enabling a work place which is free and easy and sexy to work at without fear either of harassment or threats of being sued for harassment... for either genders. I'm not interested in looking back... I'm trying to imagine something new... and better.

Maybe you're right... maybe I should fire someone for touching an employee on their shoulder if that employee feels strongly enough that it is extreme sexual harassment? And maybe I should fire an employee that gets blackmailed by a fellow employee who deliberately lures them into doing something they can claim is sexual harassment? I know, in your mind, you think that I'm setting the agenda here, defining what does and what doesn't constitute sexual harassment "in my own opinion"... but in both of the above scenarios I'd rather let go of the person claiming the sexual harassment rather than the person they're trying to get me to fire for them.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Part of my work is supporting chief execs and helping establish effective and efficient working practices."

Perhaps, if you would humour me

, we could explore this more as you seem to be exactly the kind of person I will eventually be needing to employ. It would just be fascinating to explore some questions with you that are more sexually liberated than I would be able to explore with the person I'm gonna be employing (unless it ends up being you lol) i.e. can we construct a work environment which is MORE enjoyable for both men and women... and which allows them to bond more as human souls... flirt a bit and relax more... and yet steer them clear of harassing and oppressive behavior. Basically move away from corporate-ville and move to hippy-farm-ville, whilst keeping the work ethic intact

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

@mpassion - I believe that there are only certain kinds of workplaces where that works without negative consequences, and that isn't in the highly competetive corporate sectors for sure. Nor is it in the most often soulless tertiaty service industries where workers are just chucked through the meatgrinder.

It's possible that society is a little to overcrowded and overworked for that to work for everybody, and then those that don't get the privilege of such freedoms may become embittered and willing to take it by force.

You have some nice thoughts and I really appreciate where your sense of liberation is going with this, but is it possible that no one idea works for everybody anymore?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"@mpassion - I believe that there are only certain kinds of workplaces where that works without negative consequences, and that isn't in the highly competetive corporate sectors for sure. Nor is it in the most often soulless tertiaty service industries where workers are just chucked through the meatgrinder.

You have some nice thoughts and I really appreciate where your sense of liberation is going with this, but is it possible that no one idea works for everybody anymore?"

I think at least you and I know where we're both coming from in our dislike of robot-like corporate speak environments... even if everyone else thinks we're male pigs lol

I don't think one size fits all... so yes... you're right there is no one solution... but I'm hoping there might be a solution for me

Luckily my company is perfect for testing something like this out in as it will be smallish, very informal, well paid, creative, and other businesses in my sector usually add lots of perks to their workplaces so parties etc are not out of the norm. I want to make working for me even more desirable than my competitors by making sure people are treated like real human beings rather than just work horses. This might involve a certain amount of communal living, for example. These are just ideas I'm entertaining. Ultimately I would need to team up with someone like Lickety to make sure it was a well thought out plan.

Thx for being someone who gets where I'm coming from here.

I get the feeling if this thread was reversed it would've read a lot better... but sometimes it takes a while before anything that comes out of my mouth makes any sense lol

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You have some nice thoughts and I really appreciate where your sense of liberation is going with this, but is it possible that no one idea works for everybody anymore?

I think at least you and I know where we're both coming from in our dislike of robot-like corporate speak environments... even if everyone else thinks we're male pigs lol

I don't think one size fits all... so yes... you're right there is no one solution... but I'm hoping there might be a solution for me

Thx for being someone who gets where I'm coming from here.

I get the feeling if this thread was reversed it would've read a lot better... but sometimes it takes a while before anything that comes out of my mouth makes any sense lol

Well dont let the negativity put you off, just always have your drawing board nearby and I hope you're onto something.

If anything you'd just be striving for balance I guess. But you got off light being a lady. I'd have likely been crucified

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

And YES! I'm a creative myself and we do need to feel free to really bring out the best. Personality is strength in creative people and the best working conditions I had simply had more freedom for people to flirt with each others' artistic sides.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"But you got off light being a lady. I'd have likely been crucified

Lol just for clarity

We're a couple... and it's Mr Passion here

...and the crucifiction is scheduled for tommorrow morning when everyone else wakes up and logs on to see this thread lol

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"But you got off light being a lady. I'd have likely been crucified

Lol just for clarity

We're a couple... and it's Mr Passion here

...and the crucifiction is scheduled for tommorrow morning when everyone else wakes up and logs on to see this thread lol

Hahaha WWWWWHOOPS!!!

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By *iss_tressWoman
over a year ago

London

Does saying your tits look good in that top make your work better? Does it make someone self conscious and uneasy?

Please watch Blurred Lines and read Everyday Sexism.

I too found his comments alarming in this day and age and surprised he can't see the potential major problems he's setting up for himself.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I've read all of the above, and what you appear to be saying is you'll decide if it's sexual harassment or not, and if you don't think it is the person complaining will be out?! I wouldn't work for you

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

I really would suggest doing some diversity or equality courses and reading up on employment law before you set up your company or you could find your time taken up in tribunals rather than having all the fun times you envisage!

YOU don't set the barometer for sexual harassment, the person who feels they have been harassed does. Your comments do make you sound like a series corporate type who things it's ok to call the big breasted woman 'jugs' and blame her reactions on PMT, offer to buy her some chocolates by way of apology and slap her ass as she walks out.

I am a fairly easy going employee. I will have banter with those I know I can but I understand that sometimes I can't make jokes or comments. Sometimes individual boundaries change on a daily basis.

I note you have ignored every time I raise that sexual harassment can happen in single gender groups.

Why are you focusing just on sexual harassment cases? Why not apply your theory to all elements of work ace equality like racism or disability?

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex

"And YES! I'm a creative myself and we do need to feel free to really bring out the best. Personality is strength in creative people and the best working conditions I had simply had more freedom for people to flirt with each others' artistic sides."

Do you consider that only creatives such as yourself need to feel free to have the best in themselves brought out? Are us ordinary non creative types not entitled to freedom too?

What I get from this is that unless we are prepared to think and act like men and a certain type of man at that the rest of us of every gender and sexual persuasion are somehow hidebound by politically correct constraints.

One man's freedom very often puts another man in chains.

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By *xpresMan
over a year ago

Elland

I'm a truck driver my workplace is my cab n I'm only one in it so.. Bring on the lap dancers

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex

"I'm a truck driver my workplace is my cab n I'm only one in it so.. Bring on the lap dancers

Lol

. Thats a big cab!

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I'm in two minds as to whether to carry on with this thread and try and rescue some dignity from it or let it just sink into oblivion

Nothing I've written about here is going to be implemented in my company. I was only exploring the idea that equal opportunities = sexual harassment rules i.e. you can't have one without the other. It seems from all of the female replies that we can pretty much confirm that, from a female perspective, that is indeed the case. Females, at least this cross section of them, enjoy the safe desexed and behavior monitored corporate work space and see no problem in continuing it. So far the only blokes to comment on this thread find that same environment stifling. This does not mean we want to sexually harass others. We probably don't. It's just that we find the atmosphere created in these spaces to be stifling because they ask us to treat others not as human beings.

Perhaps if I'd started this thread as a discussion of how to make a workplace friendlier and more human it might have worked out better for me

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

None of the females have said they work in a desexed atmosphere, pretty much all of them have said that they enjoy banter within appropriate boundaries.

You seem to want to constantly lay the blame of sexual harassment law at the feet of women. I wonder if you would be happier with them staying at home making the much more fun men theor dinner cos let's face it theor appetites will be huge after a hard day at work watching strippers lol

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I also wanted to respond to Evie's request for my opinion on racism etc in the workplace. For me they are totally different things.

There is no such thing as enjoying a nice light bit of racism. All racism is bad and should not exist in the work place. Furthermore anything remotely racist can be explained to a panel of people and they will all agree that it was racist.

However, there is such a thing as enjoying a nice light bit of flirtation. So some sexuality in the work place is good whilst some isn't. (this is where Lickety's comments about needing clarity of what's allowed and what isn't are so important) Furthermore the current definition of 'sexual harassment' is 'whatever the person says it is'. This means that a person might claim sexual harassment to a whole panel of supervisors and none of them might consider what happened to have been sexual harassment at all... but because the person said it was... then by law... it was.

Finally sexual harassment is not gender neutral. It largely favors women because most men have a higher threshold of the kind of flirting they would enjoy at work and are therefore a lot less likely to report it than the woman. Why? Because they don't actually feel harassed by it and thus, by definition, it isn't sexual harassment. As such it seems to be growingly used as a tool (if people's feedback on other threads on this forum is anything to go by) by ambitious women who want to entrap their male co-workers and get them fired.

Unlike rules about rascism. Current rules about sexual harassment have no grounding in a common agreement across society of what is right and wrong and therefore they are open for abuse by one gender over another. Hopefully once there is true equality in the work place women will grasp this fact and the elastic flexibility of definitions of sexual harassment will be tightened up so that they cannot be used and abused for personal gain.

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex

My opinion is that until we all become aware of the effect our actions have on other people no one but the "victim" can say if something feels like harassment or not. If someone lacks the self awareness to see whats going on then they have a problem. No one is sacked summarily on the say so of one person with no evidence and implying that women are furthering their careers through harassment claims is a pretty low blow. It is often the case that once a person man or woman has initiated an industrial tribunal of any sort that they find it difficult to get employment in their chosen field again.

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By *B9 QueenWoman
over a year ago

Over the rainbow, under the bridge

I don't want anything sexual at work. I'm there to work and nothing else.

Sex elsewhere is another matter entirely.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Are there many people who work in workplaces where they really feel their creativity and enjoyment of the working environment is being stifled by the rules?

I work in the public sector, traditionally an area where you have to be particularly sensitive about equality and diversity legislation. In my team there's more men than women, and I'd say they're all intelligent enough to suss out what is and isn't appropriate when it comes to 'banter'. There is office flirting and jokes and innuendo and sexuality - but people know who is or isn't ok with that, so there are jokes they'll tell to me or comments they'll make that they wouldn't make to someone else because they know that I won't be offended by it. And in the same way, there are things I don't want to hear so they wouldn't discuss them when I'm there or say them to me.

The idea that there is an army of ambitious women honey-trapping their colleagues into sexual harassment claims to further their careers sounds like bullshit being used to absolve some men of their own guilt when they haven't had the emotional intelligence to read the signs, and have overstepped the mark.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You're not going to be able to determine the relationships that your employees build at work... Yes you monitor their actions and ask that certain behaviour is keep out of the workplace but individual people have their own sense of humour and boundaries with regards to harassment. I grew up with male friends and work in the motor industry so I am used to a more male environment and can handle flirty banter, swearing and sexual innuendos much more easily than someone who maybe isn't used to that environment... But that doesn't mean someone who is used to a workplace where banter is less acceptable would be in the wrong for taking offence to something I would find humoreous. As an employer you would need to give both a safe place to work and the right to complain if they felt something was inappropriate. In most cases a quick chat with the 'offender' would probably be enough to ensure the actions weren't repeated, but on the occasions where greater action was needed you'd have to decide whether you were a manager in charge or one of the lads... I can almost guarantee that the later may make you more popular, but it won't gain you the respect of the former.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Are there many people who work in workplaces where they really feel their creativity and enjoyment of the working environment is being stifled by the rules?

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

I'm sorry but sexual and racism are on a level playing field and both are determined by the victims tolerances for such actions.

Some people are very sensitive to comments regarding race and will call racism a lot sooner than others. Same with sexual harassment. You seem to want to have a clear cut line on these things but you can never have that because they are personal limits.

As for the Sexual harassment laws favouring women, that is simply because of the continued chauvinism in society. You only have to look at threads in here to see that reactions to womens threads are vastly different to those on mens threads. I have seen threads from guys about women pushing theor luck and they get mocked by other guys because they weren't man enough to deal with it. I have seen threads about male students being groomed by female teachers and pretty much all of the men on there were saying they would encourage theor son to do it!! So don't tell me harassment doesn't happen against guys because it does, it is equally wrong but is not supported in the same way as women which is a shame!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"...

Example.. a man touches a woman's arm every time he talks to her in work. It makes her very uncomfortable. That is NOT ok. If a man is so oblivious that he can't tell when his actions are- and aren't- ok, that's worrying.

Some people have larger areas of personal space than others. If people stand too close to me, it makes me very uncomfortable. However I know when someone is doing on purpose to make me feel uncomfortable and when they are just naturally close.

The law can't be totally descriptive of what sexual harrassment is as it can be different for everyone. It has to refer to each person as an individual.

If someone says that a woman is over reacting to a situation such as the arm touching example, that's offensive.

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By *B9 QueenWoman
over a year ago

Over the rainbow, under the bridge

Keep sex, like race, out of the workplace and then there's no confusion. Simple.

Women who engage in flirty badinage would be just as culpable as men.

That's equality.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Keep sex, like race, out of the workplace and then there's no confusion. Simple.

Women who engage in flirty badinage would be just as culpable as men.

That's equality."

That's also called the prisoners dilemma; a situation where neither party are prepared to let the other have their cake and eat it so they both vote to restrict each other's behavior to the point that they both end up in prison. It may be equality... but it's a particularly prudish and desexualised equality... perhaps not a line of approach that the French, for example, might persue

"The idea that there is an army of ambitious women honey-trapping their colleagues into sexual harassment claims to further their careers sounds like bullshit being used to absolve some men of their own guilt when they haven't had the emotional intelligence to read the signs, and have overstepped the mark. "

Fantastic to hear!! This was not my suggestion but the suggestion of many women on the forums here in relation to most of the threads where men post about women flirting at them at work. The usual recommendation to these men is that the women are trying to trap them. I think that's an overly cynical outlook. But most of the women on here seem to agree that this is what these women are doing. So refreshing to hear from a woman who disagrees that this is really going on

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By *extoysareusCouple
over a year ago

kinky heaven

Where I work sex is discussed openly and freely, however not everyone is on the same wavelength so discretion is advised.

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex

I have to say I think I'm reading different fora.

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

"I also wanted to respond to Evie's request for my opinion on racism etc in the workplace. For me they are totally different things.

Just popping in. Many see very similar constraints with racism. It is the same as your argument for sexual harassment. The fact is that just as there is everyday sexism there is everyday racism. I'm told I am a killjoy when I point out rascist behaviour as much as sexist behaviour. I have seen cases of black and minority ethnic people sacked for not fitting in because they complained about racism. Much as your harassed person would be if you thought they were being overly sensitive.

I will happily talk you through this. As I said, I have run happy organisation where people laugh, are creative, have autonomy and are productive without being illegal or offensive. Men love working for me, just as much as the women.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Just thought I'd post an example of how sexual harassment rules could be used on the other foot...

Boss: Hi Sue. Unfortunately we've had a complaint about the way you dress. Abdul is a muslim and he is personally offended by what you wear. Do you think you could cover up more?

Sue: But it's just jeans and a shirt?

Boss: Yeah but sorry Adbul feels it's too overtly sexual and it makes him feel uncomfortable. Would you mind perhaps wearing a veil or something?

----

Boss: Hi Sue. Yeah.. sorry we've had another complaint from Abdul. He finds the way you bend over is too overtly sexual and it makes him feel uncomfortable. Would you mind squating instead of leaning?

Sue: Err ok

----

Boss: Hello again Sue. Apologies for this but Abdul thinks that the way you smile all the time is just too sexual and it's making him uncomfortable. Do you think you could stop smiling?

Sue: Wow... really?

....see how this ruling could be used and abused. As long as Abdul says it genuinely offends him... Sue has to change her actions. Why? Because current sexual harassment rules mean that the accuser is always right. At least that's my understanding.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Just thought I'd post an example of how sexual harassment rules could be used on the other foot...

Boss: Hi Sue. Unfortunately we've had a complaint about the way you dress. Abdul is a muslim and he is personally offended by what you wear. Do you think you could cover up more?

Sue: But it's just jeans and a shirt?

Boss: Yeah but sorry Adbul feels it's too overtly sexual and it makes him feel uncomfortable. Would you mind perhaps wearing a veil or something?

----

Sue: Err ok

----

Boss: Hello again Sue. Apologies for this but Abdul thinks that the way you smile all the time is just too sexual and it's making him uncomfortable. Do you think you could stop smiling?

Sue: Wow... really?

Okay I'm gonna bite the bullet here, but I'd have to tell Abdul to stop perving at Sue all the time if he's gonna have a problem with her lol

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Everytime I read a post from the OP I imagine Michael Scott is writing it.

He seems to have read completely different threads to me as the ones he mentions about ambitious women falsely accusing men I just haven't seen.

He seems to be blaming women for everything that is wrong in the workplace and sucking the fun out of the office.

For a man if his years he seems to have a very infantile image of what a workplace should be like.

Mr P.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Everytime I read a post from the OP I imagine Michael Scott is writing it.

He seems to have read completely different threads to me as the ones he mentions about ambitious women falsely accusing men I just haven't seen.

He seems to be blaming women for everything that is wrong in the workplace and sucking the fun out of the office.

For a man if his years he seems to have a very infantile image of what a workplace should be like.

Mr P. "

Oh , and I couldn't make head nor tail out if the Abdul and Sue scenario.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Just thought I'd post an example of how sexual harassment rules could be used on the other foot...

Boss: Hi Sue. Unfortunately we've had a complaint about the way you dress. Abdul is a muslim and he is personally offended by what you wear. Do you think you could cover up more?

Sue: But it's just jeans and a shirt?

Boss: Yeah but sorry Adbul feels it's too overtly sexual and it makes him feel uncomfortable. Would you mind perhaps wearing a veil or something?

----

Sue: Err ok

----

Boss: Hello again Sue. Apologies for this but Abdul thinks that the way you smile all the time is just too sexual and it's making him uncomfortable. Do you think you could stop smiling?

Sue: Wow... really?

I'm sorry but that post smacks of an agenda that has nothing to do with sexual equality

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

"Just thought I'd post an example of how sexual harassment rules could be used on the other foot...

Boss: Hi Sue. Unfortunately we've had a complaint about the way you dress. Abdul is a muslim and he is personally offended by what you wear. Do you think you could cover up more?

Sue: But it's just jeans and a shirt?

Boss: Yeah but sorry Adbul feels it's too overtly sexual and it makes him feel uncomfortable. Would you mind perhaps wearing a veil or something?

----

Sue: Err ok

----

Boss: Hello again Sue. Apologies for this but Abdul thinks that the way you smile all the time is just too sexual and it's making him uncomfortable. Do you think you could stop smiling?

Sue: Wow... really?

Not really sure what you are trying to prove here. I just read bad management of a situation that doesn't need to be a situation.

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex

"Everytime I read a post from the OP I imagine Michael Scott is writing it.

He seems to have read completely different threads to me as the ones he mentions about ambitious women falsely accusing men I just haven't seen.

He seems to be blaming women for everything that is wrong in the workplace and sucking the fun out of the office.

For a man if his years he seems to have a very infantile image of what a workplace should be like.

Mr P.

Oh , and I couldn't make head nor tail out if the Abdul and Sue scenario. "

Abdul thinks Sue should wear a burqa, his boss agrees.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm shallow I'll go for A - bring on the strippers!!!

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

Abdul, Sue and the boss is the wackiest example that addresses neither of the equality issues.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Everytime I read a post from the OP I imagine Michael Scott is writing it.

He seems to have read completely different threads to me as the ones he mentions about ambitious women falsely accusing men I just haven't seen.

He seems to be blaming women for everything that is wrong in the workplace and sucking the fun out of the office.

For a man if his years he seems to have a very infantile image of what a workplace should be like.

Mr P. "

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Over the course of this thread I have deliberately tried to pick apart and cast concerns across the connection between equal opportunities and the desexing of the workplace. I have also tried to show that current sexual harassment rules are freely open for use and abuse in ways that other rules perhaps are not.

I am not a sexist pig and I'm not about to build a work place that tolerates bum pinching and sexist jokes. But I do feel that enough is wrong and unjust about the current situation that it warrants a rethink. As such I've been trying to shake the tree and see what comes out. Unfortunately all that seems to have come out is very much a status quo, everything is fine as it is, mentality which has decided to see my questioning as somehow a call to a return to the good old days of misogyny and sexism against women in the work place. If you look back... you should see that I have only talked about comparing same gender workplaces to mixed gender workplaces. This does not mean I was ever referring to an all-male workspace, although I did point at that as an example. My questioning was gender neutral.

I know some of you probably think badly of me... but I hope there's some sense that this might be a misreading of what I've been getting at. I just wanted to explore something. I don't feel upset or anything at the outcome of this discussion. In fact I've found it most interesting to read... even if some of you have inferred I've been sexist in exploring it.

I think there's always space for asking questions about where we're going with things and the whole political correctness and desexing of the workplace troubles me mainly because I have worked in a series of stifling corporate environments and, in building my own company, I do not want to repeat my own experience... otherwise I wouldn't want to work for it myself

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Surely the culture (formal and informal) and the nature of a workplace is determined by the people who work there. I don't think you can force the sort of jokey, potentially sexualised atmosphere you seem to be seeking, and basically it's all going to come down to your individual hiring decisions.

You could put a group of people together and give them strippers and booze on tap but if they don't actually get on with each other then it's still not going to be a 'fun' place to work (as well as no work probably getting done).

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By *B9 QueenWoman
over a year ago

Over the rainbow, under the bridge

"Keep sex, like race, out of the workplace and then there's no confusion. Simple.

Women who engage in flirty badinage would be just as culpable as men.

That's equality.

Why should any place of work (apart from the likes of lapdancing clubs) HAVE to be sexualised? It is not in the least prudish. That suggests that we are more driven by uncontrollable lusts than anything else.

And believe me - prudish I am not! Far from it. But I go to work to do just that - work. It's what I am paid for. Not to engage in flirtations.

If you think that is old-fashioned so be it. I can get plenty of enjoyment and satisfaction, and fun, out of my work without having to resort to a sexualised environment. And, what is more, I am more productive for it.

In terms of my sexuality and any need for satisfaction, I get that elsewhere. I don't need a sexualised workplace.

I think it is one of the main problems in our society - everything has to be sexualised. Why? There is more to being a human being than that.

And - I'm not French.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Surely the culture (formal and informal) and the nature of a workplace is determined by the people who work there. I don't think you can force the sort of jokey, potentially sexualised atmosphere you seem to be seeking, and basically it's all going to come down to your individual hiring decisions.

I think this is absolutely bang on. Those teams of city lads who get strippers in, somebody called them a bunch of knobs earlier... and they're probably right lol, their unique to their own financial sector or whatever it is they do. My employees are highly unlikely to be like this... so yes... it's good advice that the type of culture that emerges from my team will reflect the team they are... which is unlikely to involve strippers... but may involve some element of partying

One of the places where I worked built a games room, filled with cool computer games to play. Everyone got excited while they were building it. But the minute it was opened pretty quickly everyone realised it was a trap. If you were in the games room... why weren't you working?

As a result it remained totally empty... never used. It was really just a show room for potential employees to make them feel the job was cool... when in reality none of us ever used it for fear of getting fired... so the truth was the exact opposite lol

Imo it's all about trying to set up a fun and rewarding family-like environment where I can really care after my employees and help them to feel that it isn't just a cynical game to get them working more... but a real rewarding relationship... a return to really old values of running companies as an extended family. In reality that's unlikely to involve a high degree of sexualisation so maybe this thread has been more theoretical than anything else... but it's been interesting stirring the soup a bit

I will be an equal opportunities employer, no matter what, and I genuinely want women on my board too... so no glass ceiling. That's not a positive discrimination thing.. I genuinely think that the female voice has something unique to say at that level and deserves to be there. I appreciate that some people think I'm heading to some kind of corporate suicide... but I'll also be looking for people who are relaxed about humour and flirting and aim to avoid the type of people, of either gender, who might claim sexual harassment or who might be otherwise overly sensitive... like Abdul lol

... not because I want to inject humour and flirting into the workspace deliberately... but because I'd like to imagine it flourishing as people relax and act themselves

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By *B9 QueenWoman
over a year ago

Over the rainbow, under the bridge

'like Abdul'? Abdul who?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"'like Abdul'? Abdul who? "

It relates to one of the many dumb things I wrote earlier in the thread

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By *B9 QueenWoman
over a year ago

Over the rainbow, under the bridge

"'like Abdul'? Abdul who?

It relates to one of the many dumb things I wrote earlier in the thread

Oh right, not read the whole thread. Just popped in and out.

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