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"Well put" It's not a thread that will go anywhere. WW1 is so yesterday now (sardonic smiley). However if just one person learns something about why and how this war started and that it's not all about a football match and poppies then the sacrifice of all those young lives might mean something. | |||
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"Well put It's not a thread that will go anywhere. WW1 is so yesterday now (sardonic smiley). However if just one person learns something about why and how this war started and that it's not all about a football match and poppies then the sacrifice of all those young lives might mean something. " I heard Cameron trying to justify the cause on TV yesterday...something about "it being a real cause that young men rallied round"... My jaw almost hit the floor, I knew the man was vile, but that is just...beyond. | |||
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"Well put It's not a thread that will go anywhere. WW1 is so yesterday now (sardonic smiley). However if just one person learns something about why and how this war started and that it's not all about a football match and poppies then the sacrifice of all those young lives might mean something. I heard Cameron trying to justify the cause on TV yesterday...something about "it being a real cause that young men rallied round"... My jaw almost hit the floor, I knew the man was vile, but that is just...beyond. " I'm glad I didn't hear that. If only those young men could even point to the place they were defending on a map I would be surprised. | |||
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"I did a fair bit of work on this at Uni and enjoyed the study. I found the work of Fritz Fischer on Germany's war aims quite interesting in regarding how they intended to carve up Europe should they have won. I also found our carve up (which actually succeeded) of the Middle East with the French under the Sykes-Picot pact interesting and very responsible for a lot of the ills of that region today. "The Sykes-Picot carve up was so arbitrary that it is surprising there has ever been periods of peace in the region. | |||
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"Well put It's not a thread that will go anywhere. WW1 is so yesterday now (sardonic smiley). However if just one person learns something about why and how this war started and that it's not all about a football match and poppies then the sacrifice of all those young lives might mean something. I heard Cameron trying to justify the cause on TV yesterday...something about "it being a real cause that young men rallied round"... My jaw almost hit the floor, I knew the man was vile, but that is just...beyond. " not as vile as the usless idiot who wears a red tie who's Reith read.. "from the leader of the opposition" what a total pointless waste of skin and oxygen | |||
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"the cynical pals regiments recruitment ploy used sickens me .. the machinations of the old empires with the treaties forcing involvement caused the whole chain reaction .. large navies and flexing of military muscle created a false feeling of superiorty on all sides .. unfortunately overlooking the humanitarian cost of the stalemate and horrors to follow ... if the polititians had taken a longer look and not been so eager to play with their new military toys the whole thing could have been avoided.. thus not plunging the german economy into meltdown and avoiding the rise of the nazis and ww2" Empires like to grow. | |||
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"Well put It's not a thread that will go anywhere. WW1 is so yesterday now (sardonic smiley). However if just one person learns something about why and how this war started and that it's not all about a football match and poppies then the sacrifice of all those young lives might mean something. I heard Cameron trying to justify the cause on TV yesterday...something about "it being a real cause that young men rallied round"... My jaw almost hit the floor, I knew the man was vile, but that is just...beyond. not as vile as the usless idiot who wears a red tie who's Reith read.. "from the leader of the opposition" what a total pointless waste of skin and oxygen" But he is the leader of the opposition.... I imagine the PMs wreath would have read "from the Prime Minister"... | |||
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"The British Empire was on the decline, and could not risk continental Europe to be under the control of the emerging German Empire, with its direct threat to The Royal Navy. This would have had a direct affect on its trade routes and hence wealth. Most wars are about the threat to wealth and trade." This or two members of the Royal family fell out with each other over the question of whether to put the jam on before or after the clotted cream on a cream tea  | |||
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"Well put It's not a thread that will go anywhere. WW1 is so yesterday now (sardonic smiley). However if just one person learns something about why and how this war started and that it's not all about a football match and poppies then the sacrifice of all those young lives might mean something. " was it not you that made a thread about remembering christians all around the world ?.. i could be wrong | |||
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"The British Empire was on the decline, and could not risk continental Europe to be under the control of the emerging German Empire, with its direct threat to The Royal Navy. This would have had a direct affect on its trade routes and hence wealth. Most wars are about the threat to wealth and trade. This or two members of the Royal family fell out with each other over the question of whether to put the jam on before or after the clotted cream on a cream tea "Not a case of kissing cousins  | |||
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"Well put It's not a thread that will go anywhere. WW1 is so yesterday now (sardonic smiley). However if just one person learns something about why and how this war started and that it's not all about a football match and poppies then the sacrifice of all those young lives might mean something. was it not you that made a thread about remembering christians all around the world ?.. i could be wrong " Yes I did. I don't see any relevance. I make threads about a number of things as my interests and concerns are wide ranging. | |||
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"The British Empire was on the decline, and could not risk continental Europe to be under the control of the emerging German Empire, with its direct threat to The Royal Navy. This would have had a direct affect on its trade routes and hence wealth. Most wars are about the threat to wealth and trade." That's because without wealth and trade the state would cease to be able to survive. If its felt that there is a true threat that could cause vulnerability then states protect themselves. Biggest example i can think of is japan bombing pearl harbour. | |||
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"Lickety Splits said: "I will start you off with the fact that Britain was expected to remain neutral and we didn't." Why not?" Why was Britain expected to stay neutral or why didn't Britain stay neutral? I'm not giving out answers I am asking people to find out. | |||
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" Is it because we were, and still, are miltarily aggressive hypocritical bastards. Eg, we don't like the war in Ukraine (Syria, Libya, Iraq, wherever) but we still provide arms and often miltary personnel on the ground. Somehow, all to defend Britain. " I think nearly all of those can be traced back to WW1. | |||
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"i wasnt being harsh on you lickety ..i was referring to your assumption that the thread would go no where ..yours did about what i would have thought would be a thread that would not appeal to the masses" I never expect the serious ones to get much attention. I have many that get no responses. | |||
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" Is it because we were, and still, are miltarily aggressive hypocritical bastards. Eg, we don't like the war in Ukraine (Syria, Libya, Iraq, wherever) but we still provide arms and often miltary personnel on the ground. Somehow, all to defend Britain. I think nearly all of those can be traced back to WW1. " Oi, the Boers might have something to say about that? Lonnie Donegan too. | |||
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"Lickety Splits said: "I will start you off with the fact that Britain was expected to remain neutral and we didn't." Why not? Why was Britain expected to stay neutral or why didn't Britain stay neutral? I'm not giving out answers I am asking people to find out." Strangely, surprisingly ... I find I can't be bothered. Done too much research into the origins of WW1 over the years to take up the challenge of looking for the origins of an off the cuff remark, with no supporting details, on an internet forum. | |||
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" Is it because we were, and still, are miltarily aggressive hypocritical bastards. Eg, we don't like the war in Ukraine (Syria, Libya, Iraq, wherever) but we still provide arms and often miltary personnel on the ground. Somehow, all to defend Britain. " Politicians don't sit around planning war like its an orgy. It's not an off the cuff activity and truth is that it's not as rampant as people think it is. | |||
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"Politicians don't sit around planning war like its an orgy." You're quite right... more planning goes into an orgy than went into the invasion of Iraq lol | |||
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"Politicians don't sit around planning war like its an orgy. You're quite right... more planning goes into an orgy than went into the invasion of Iraq lol "That's not entirely accurate ... if you look into it more planning went into the invasion of Iraq than went into the planning of a thousand orgies. Duh! I m surprised it's necessary to argue the point. How many orgies involve the logistics to support helicopter fleets, bombing missions, aircraft carriers, tank squadrons, .....? | |||
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"Politicians don't sit around planning war like its an orgy. You're quite right... more planning goes into an orgy than went into the invasion of Iraq lol
That's not entirely accurate ... if you look into it more planning went into the invasion of Iraq than went into the planning of a thousand orgies.
Duh! I m surprised it's necessary to argue the point. How many orgies involve the logistics to support helicopter fleets, bombing missions, aircraft carriers, tank squadrons, .....?"Where do i claim my £10. You are Splanky from the Monty Python Department of the Bleeding Obvious. | |||
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"Lickety Splits said: "I will start you off with the fact that Britain was expected to remain neutral and we didn't." Why not? Why was Britain expected to stay neutral or why didn't Britain stay neutral? I'm not giving out answers I am asking people to find out. Strangely, surprisingly ... I find I can't be bothered. Done too much research into the origins of WW1 over the years to take up the challenge of looking for the origins of an off the cuff remark, with no supporting details, on an internet forum." Your point is.....? | |||
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"How many orgies involve the logistics to support helicopter fleets, bombing missions, aircraft carriers, tank squadrons, .....?" lol  That's a classic! Somebody should nab that as a tag line to a party | |||
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"How many orgies involve the logistics to support helicopter fleets, bombing missions, aircraft carriers, tank squadrons, .....? lol That's a classic! Somebody should nab that as a tag line to a party "Best be careful here, but didn't Max Moseley make a tiny start on this path? | |||
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"Interesting thread Lickety. That said, I'm not sure how an in depth understanding of international alliances especially the one between Britain and Belgium and it's link to the catalyst (assasination of Arch Duke Ferdy) would give anyone a better appreciation of the sacrifice of so many young men. Whatever the real complex reasons for the Great War I would suggest that most of the young men who raced to serve were seduced by the propaganda. Their personal reason for rushing to make the ultimate sacrifice had little to do with Serbia. So although we now have the benefit of hindsight and knowledge of the real reasons for the war, we should not forget what the majority of soldiers believed as they decided to do their duty. I think that gives their sacrifice a degree of honour that the ruling classes around Europe back in that day manipulated. I don't think a lack of understanding of the root causes necessarily means a lack of understanding of the sacrifice. " All good points. | |||
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"Politicians don't sit around planning war like its an orgy. You're quite right... more planning goes into an orgy than went into the invasion of Iraq lol
That's not entirely accurate ... if you look into it more planning went into the invasion of Iraq than went into the planning of a thousand orgies.
Duh! I m surprised it's necessary to argue the point. How many orgies involve the logistics to support helicopter fleets, bombing missions, aircraft carriers, tank squadrons, .....?
Where do i claim my £10.
You are Splanky from the Monty Python Department of the Bleeding Obvious. "I see irony isn't wasted on you. It misses by miles! | |||
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"Here's a thought for you. Everyone imagines WW1 to be trenches and "over the top" to get mowed down by German machine guns. For the most part battles weren't even like this, but I digress. Anyway, it's a thought that chills me to the bone. To the point that, had I been sitting in my trench allowing my mind to wander would probably have sent me "clucking bell"! What am I going on about? I'm talking about the war underground. The tunnellers. The hundreds of Royal Engineers (and Germans when they cottoned on) digging tunnels from allied lines right across to where the Germans were heavily dug in. Laying thousands of tonnes of explosives and blowing everything above it to smithereens. Literally red mist. It's said that these tunnellers sometimes broke through into enemy tunnels and they were then fighting hand to hand combat. In pitch black!! Not to mention they were digging in silence as to not be detected by enemy tunnellers, who could hear. No power tools. Just a pick and spade. Astonishing engineering. For the soldiers in the line there was always at the back of their head the thought. Any second now and in an instant I could be blown to bits and I've got no idea it's going to happen. They'd think it because they'd see it for themselves. To me I can handle an enemy to my front. But the fact that they could be under my feet is terrifying! Then there's the barrage bombing by our artillery. The whole tactic was to barrage the enemy lines, so much so that you decimated everything in your path. The wire, the stakes. German defences. All so your soldiers could advance knowing the enemy was depleted. Sometimes however the artillery miscalculated their distances. You can imagine Tommy's delight getting smashed by your own artillery! But people forget that WW1 was all new. New tactics. New equipment. More safety gear. From the start of the war, to the end, the dynamics had changed considerably. For example it wasn't until (don't quote me) late 15/early 16 that the helmet was brought in to commission. Before that soldiers were fighting in their caps and tamoshanters (head dress). Then you get the beginning of the RAF. The merger between the Royal Flying Corps, and Royal Naval Air Service. An amazing time of development. There's loads on WW1. Tonnes of hidden gems. Especially the VCs won! " Thanks for that really interesting post. The birth of modern warfare. | |||
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"I didn't want to post this yesterday on the centenary thread so I am starting this thread today. A lot of posts and comments have been that people are proud that the men who fought in the Great War did so to protect our freedom. This is then followed by some stuff about them/us having the freedom to even make the post/comment. Reading the comments it struck me that people don't know or understand the reasons for the Great War. Further, if you don't understand the reasons for that war then a) how are you honouring the sacrifices made by young men who didn't know what they were fighting for? b) how are you able to understand WW2, where freedom were at stake? c) how are you able to understand what is currently happening with the current conflicts in the world. My plea to you is to just learn one thing about the causes of WW1 and Britain's involvement. I will start you off with the fact that Britain was expected to remain neutral and we didn't. Learn something and truly honour the lives lost by understanding why and how their lives were sacrificed. " it is immaterial to me why Britain joined the war. I don't have to understand the politics ofthe rational of the day. I ddon't expect many of those who died would understand either. I can still remember with gratitude those who died during ww1. I have stood at the bottom of the hill where thousands of my countrymen of the 36th ulster division died in the space of a couple of hours. I admire their bravery snd sacrifice and I wonder if I would be man enough. They didn't have much of a choice - charge a hill with a wall of bullets or get shot for cowardice. The rights and wrongs of ww1 should be temporarily shelved just so we can pause to remember the men of our country who fought and died. | |||
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"I didn't want to post this yesterday on the centenary thread so I am starting this thread today. A lot of posts and comments have been that people are proud that the men who fought in the Great War did so to protect our freedom. This is then followed by some stuff about them/us having the freedom to even make the post/comment. Reading the comments it struck me that people don't know or understand the reasons for the Great War. Further, if you don't understand the reasons for that war then a) how are you honouring the sacrifices made by young men who didn't know what they were fighting for? b) how are you able to understand WW2, where freedom were at stake? c) how are you able to understand what is currently happening with the current conflicts in the world. My plea to you is to just learn one thing about the causes of WW1 and Britain's involvement. I will start you off with the fact that Britain was expected to remain neutral and we didn't. Learn something and truly honour the lives lost by understanding why and how their lives were sacrificed. "  | |||
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"I didn't want to post this yesterday on the centenary thread so I am starting this thread today. A lot of posts and comments have been that people are proud that the men who fought in the Great War did so to protect our freedom. This is then followed by some stuff about them/us having the freedom to even make the post/comment. Reading the comments it struck me that people don't know or understand the reasons for the Great War. Further, if you don't understand the reasons for that war then a) how are you honouring the sacrifices made by young men who didn't know what they were fighting for? b) how are you able to understand WW2, where freedom were at stake? c) how are you able to understand what is currently happening with the current conflicts in the world. My plea to you is to just learn one thing about the causes of WW1 and Britain's involvement. I will start you off with the fact that Britain was expected to remain neutral and we didn't. Learn something and truly honour the lives lost by understanding why and how their lives were sacrificed. " You don't have to understand the why's and wherefore's to appreciate and respect the people who died, whatever their nationality. I realise that knowledge is a fine thing, but a full historical knowledge of the wars fought is hardly necessary to be able to spend as few moments in respectful remembrance. | |||
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"I was of the belief that Franz Ferdinand started it because they couldn't get to number one in Serbia, I may be wrong there" A good summary. | |||
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"I was of the belief that Franz Ferdinand started it because they couldn't get to number one in Serbia, I may be wrong there" A poor remark for such a devastating period in European history. So many people suffered and lives torn apart by events that were building from 1908. | |||
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"I was of the belief that Franz Ferdinand started it because they couldn't get to number one in Serbia, I may be wrong there A poor remark for such a devastating period in European history. So many people suffered and lives torn apart by events that were building from 1908. " I don't know. I appreciate the mirth, personally. | |||
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"Well put It's not a thread that will go anywhere. WW1 is so yesterday now (sardonic smiley). However if just one person learns something about why and how this war started and that it's not all about a football match and poppies then the sacrifice of all those young lives might mean something. I heard Cameron trying to justify the cause on TV yesterday...something about "it being a real cause that young men rallied round"... My jaw almost hit the floor, I knew the man was vile, but that is just...beyond. not as vile as the usless idiot who wears a red tie who's Reith read.. "from the leader of the opposition" what a total pointless waste of skin and oxygen" Actually-this was a cheap political point from the DCSM. All the wreaths had pre written messages given to all the politicians laying them, including Milliband, Clegg, Salmond etc but ONLY Cameron was able to write his own message. Surprisingly, the right wing rag newspapers didn't explain this, just took another deliberate swipe at Milliband. Despicable hypocrisy from the Tories, making political capital on that day of all days. | |||
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"The British Empire was on the decline, and could not risk continental Europe to be under the control of the emerging German Empire, with its direct threat to The Royal Navy. This would have had a direct affect on its trade routes and hence wealth. Most wars are about the threat to wealth and trade." True. WWII - Japan attacking America was about money & trade. | |||
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"I was of the belief that Franz Ferdinand started it because they couldn't get to number one in Serbia, I may be wrong there A poor remark for such a devastating period in European history. So many people suffered and lives torn apart by events that were building from 1908. " I found it funny. I like the idea that his time machine is a bit wonked. Incongruity is quite a useful comedic method. Enough time has passed for jokes. Ask the writers and cast of Black Adder. | |||
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"Here's a thought for you. Everyone imagines WW1 to be trenches and "over the top" to get mowed down by German machine guns. For the most part battles weren't even like this, but I digress. Anyway, it's a thought that chills me to the bone. To the point that, had I been sitting in my trench allowing my mind to wander would probably have sent me "clucking bell"! What am I going on about? I'm talking about the war underground. The tunnellers. The hundreds of Royal Engineers (and Germans when they cottoned on) digging tunnels from allied lines right across to where the Germans were heavily dug in. Laying thousands of tonnes of explosives and blowing everything above it to smithereens. Literally red mist. It's said that these tunnellers sometimes broke through into enemy tunnels and they were then fighting hand to hand combat. In pitch black!! Not to mention they were digging in silence as to not be detected by enemy tunnellers, who could hear. No power tools. Just a pick and spade. Astonishing engineering. For the soldiers in the line there was always at the back of their head the thought. Any second now and in an instant I could be blown to bits and I've got no idea it's going to happen. They'd think it because they'd see it for themselves. To me I can handle an enemy to my front. But the fact that they could be under my feet is terrifying! Then there's the barrage bombing by our artillery. The whole tactic was to barrage the enemy lines, so much so that you decimated everything in your path. The wire, the stakes. German defences. All so your soldiers could advance knowing the enemy was depleted. Sometimes however the artillery miscalculated their distances. You can imagine Tommy's delight getting smashed by your own artillery! But people forget that WW1 was all new. New tactics. New equipment. More safety gear. From the start of the war, to the end, the dynamics had changed considerably. For example it wasn't until (don't quote me) late 15/early 16 that the helmet was brought in to commission. Before that soldiers were fighting in their caps and tamoshanters (head dress). Then you get the beginning of the RAF. The merger between the Royal Flying Corps, and Royal Naval Air Service. An amazing time of development. There's loads on WW1. Tonnes of hidden gems. Especially the VCs won! " 'birdsong' gives an insight into the tunnelling .. having had a small experience of cutting a tunnel to give us an insight what those men went through by an enthusiastic instructor in basic field engineering training one can only imagine the strength of will and discipline required.. | |||
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"The British Empire was on the decline, and could not risk continental Europe to be under the control of the emerging German Empire, with its direct threat to The Royal Navy. This would have had a direct affect on its trade routes and hence wealth. Most wars are about the threat to wealth and trade. True. WWII - Japan attacking America was about money & trade." Not exactly. It was more fundamental than that. The u.s. cut the oil trade to Japan by a very very small fraction. The problem was that the island of Japan was so dependant on the oil import that they calculated that within 2 years at the new level of import they would not be able to run their military. At all. Any of it. No state will leave themselves unable till run a military to ensure its survival. So, it went far deeper than money and trade. | |||
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"I was of the belief that Franz Ferdinand started it because they couldn't get to number one in Serbia, I may be wrong there A good summary." In all seriousness I can vaguely remember my grandfathers tales of the trenches at Ypres, great shame that I was too young to pay the attention his tales deserved | |||
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"I was of the belief that Franz Ferdinand started it because they couldn't get to number one in Serbia, I may be wrong there A poor remark for such a devastating period in European history. So many people suffered and lives torn apart by events that were building from 1908. I found it funny. I like the idea that his time machine is a bit wonked. Incongruity is quite a useful comedic method. Enough time has passed for jokes. Ask the writers and cast of Black Adder." Absolutely. Of course people should remember the sacrifices made. ...but I can't help but feel some of the public displays of grief or support on social media is more about following a fashionable trend as opposed to genuine thought and reflection.
I'll post a candle on my Facebook page so I can get a load of likes...but attend a service or donate to veterans? Slightly disingenuous at times. | |||
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"Can someone please point me at the religion which was responsible for this war and world war 2... as I've been told authoritatively that religion is the cause of all war "The two greatest religions money and power  | |||
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"BBC2 has a short series starting this evening "The World's War: forgotten soldiers of the Empire". I will be watching but I think the title should have been "...Empires" as it wasn't just Britain deploying colonial soldiers. " That was a fantastic piece of television. | |||
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"BBC2 has a short series starting this evening "The World's War: forgotten soldiers of the Empire". I will be watching but I think the title should have been "...Empires" as it wasn't just Britain deploying colonial soldiers. That was a fantastic piece of television. " There's a part two I think. I didn't know the numbers were so great and I really didn't know about the first British shot being from a black man. The narrative analysis about having to overturn the "rules" of Empire and telling black men to shoot white (German) men was really interesting looking at the modern world and how we still have this as a taboo that garners press in a way that black people killing other blacks doesn't. | |||
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"I was of the belief that Franz Ferdinand started it because they couldn't get to number one in Serbia, I may be wrong there A poor remark for such a devastating period in European history. So many people suffered and lives torn apart by events that were building from 1908. I found it funny. I like the idea that his time machine is a bit wonked. Incongruity is quite a useful comedic method. Enough time has passed for jokes. Ask the writers and cast of Black Adder." Knowing soldiers, they will have made jokes about it then rather than 100 years after | |||
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"BBC2 has a short series starting this evening "The World's War: forgotten soldiers of the Empire". I will be watching but I think the title should have been "...Empires" as it wasn't just Britain deploying colonial soldiers. That was a fantastic piece of television. There's a part two I think. I didn't know the numbers were so great and I really didn't know about the first British shot being from a black man. The narrative analysis about having to overturn the "rules" of Empire and telling black men to shoot white (German) men was really interesting looking at the modern world and how we still have this as a taboo that garners press in a way that black people killing other blacks doesn't. " very good programme. The photo of the Indian troops after battle showed the shock they had suffered. | |||
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"Well put It's not a thread that will go anywhere. WW1 is so yesterday now (sardonic smiley). However if just one person learns something about why and how this war started and that it's not all about a football match and poppies then the sacrifice of all those young lives might mean something. I heard Cameron trying to justify the cause on TV yesterday...something about "it being a real cause that young men rallied round"... My jaw almost hit the floor, I knew the man was vile, but that is just...beyond. not as vile as the usless idiot who wears a red tie who's Reith read.. "from the leader of the opposition" what a total pointless waste of skin and oxygen Actually-this was a cheap political point from the DCSM. All the wreaths had pre written messages given to all the politicians laying them, including Milliband, Clegg, Salmond etc but ONLY Cameron was able to write his own message. Surprisingly, the right wing rag newspapers didn't explain this, just took another deliberate swipe at Milliband. Despicable hypocrisy from the Tories, making political capital on that day of all days. " something mr Blair and mr brown would never have done ! Lol | |||
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"BBC2 has a short series starting this evening "The World's War: forgotten soldiers of the Empire". I will be watching but I think the title should have been "...Empires" as it wasn't just Britain deploying colonial soldiers. That was a fantastic piece of television. There's a part two I think. I didn't know the numbers were so great and I really didn't know about the first British shot being from a black man. The narrative analysis about having to overturn the "rules" of Empire and telling black men to shoot white (German) men was really interesting looking at the modern world and how we still have this as a taboo that garners press in a way that black people killing other blacks doesn't. very good programme. The photo of the Indian troops after battle showed the shock they had suffered. " The revelation that the horror of slavery was used in order to enforce African men to be brought to Europe to fight for an oppressive empire was heartbreaking. Who's freedom were they fighting for? This ha opened up a whole new chapter for me. Have we forgotten these men?.....many of us never knew. | |||
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"I thought the reason for all wars is humanity enjoys being bigoted murdering cunts" That's probably the best explanation.... | |||
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"BBC2 has a short series starting this evening "The World's War: forgotten soldiers of the Empire". I will be watching but I think the title should have been "...Empires" as it wasn't just Britain deploying colonial soldiers. That was a fantastic piece of television. There's a part two I think. I didn't know the numbers were so great and I really didn't know about the first British shot being from a black man. The narrative analysis about having to overturn the "rules" of Empire and telling black men to shoot white (German) men was really interesting looking at the modern world and how we still have this as a taboo that garners press in a way that black people killing other blacks doesn't. very good programme. The photo of the Indian troops after battle showed the shock they had suffered. The revelation that the horror of slavery was used in order to enforce African men to be brought to Europe to fight for an oppressive empire was heartbreaking. Who's freedom were they fighting for? This ha opened up a whole new chapter for me. Have we forgotten these men?.....many of us never knew. " These men were not exactly forgotten so much as their contributions were actively ignored. Vast numbers fought in WW2 as well. It is much harder to sell a story of fighting for Britain's safety and freedoms when you use those who have never stepped foot on these islands and have few freedoms under British rule. Further, when you know you don't want those very people to come and try and exercise the freedom they have been told they are fighting for. WW1 marks a beginning of those fights for independence and a breaking away from the Empire. I knew about the contributions of black and Asians to British efforts but I didn't know about the numbers or the French empire contributions. | |||
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"Lickety Splits said: "I will start you off with the fact that Britain was expected to remain neutral and we didn't." Why not?" we wanted to stay neutral, rather than were expected to...the simple reason for Britains entry was the German violation of Belgian neutrality which all of the major powers had agreed to protect by treaty. It's far more complex than this, but that's the principle casus beli | |||
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"Milliband / Clegg and others were apparently given a wreath to present just moments before they laid it. Cameron on the other hand was given his in advance and so was able to write a personal message...more despicable politicking from the nasty party and the vile Lynton Crosby." That MIGHT be what happened. I suspect it was much more the machinery of pomp and ceremony. These things are organised and run to a timetable. | |||
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"Interesting thread Lickety. That said, I'm not sure how an in depth understanding of international alliances especially the one between Britain and Belgium and it's link to the catalyst (assasination of Arch Duke Ferdy) would give anyone a better appreciation of the sacrifice of so many young men. Whatever the real complex reasons for the Great War I would suggest that muost of the young men who raced to serve were seduced by the propaganda. Their personal reason for rushing to make the ultimate sacrifice had little to do with Serbia. So although we now have the benefit of hindsight and knowledge of the real reasons for the war, we should not forget what the majority of soldiers believed as they decided to do their duty. I think that gives their sacrifice a degree of honour that the ruling classes around Europe back in that day manipulated. I don't think a lack of understanding of the root causes necessarily means a lack of understanding of the sacrifice. " Well said that man. Couldn't have put it better myself. Different times, different beliefs and values. | |||
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"Milliband / Clegg and others were apparently given a wreath to present just moments before they laid it. Cameron on the other hand was given his in advance and so was able to write a personal message...more despicable politicking from the nasty party and the vile Lynton Crosby." I subscribe to the fuck up school of history and find it explains a lot of things like this. | |||
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"Milliband / Clegg and others were apparently given a wreath to present just moments before they laid it. Cameron on the other hand was given his in advance and so was able to write a personal message...more despicable politicking from the nasty party and the vile Lynton Crosby." Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity. Also how do you know this "apparently" factual story isn't a lie made up by the labour lot? | |||
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"Lickety Splits said: "I will start you off with the fact that Britain was expected to remain neutral and we didn't." Why not? we wanted to stay neutral, rather than were expected to...the simple reason for Britains entry was the German violation of Belgian neutrality which all of the major powers had agreed to protect by treaty. It's far more complex than this, but that's the principle casus beli" Britain could, at the time, have ignored our agreement with Belgium but it seemed an ideal opportunity to head off the sort of German expansionism we saw 25 years later. | |||
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"Milliband / Clegg and others were apparently given a wreath to present just moments before they laid it. Cameron on the other hand was given his in advance and so was able to write a personal message...more despicable politicking from the nasty party and the vile Lynton Crosby. Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity. Also how do you know this "apparently" factual story isn't a lie made up by the labour lot?" Cos Clegg is telling the same story. | |||
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"Milliband / Clegg and others were apparently given a wreath to present just moments before they laid it. Cameron on the other hand was given his in advance and so was able to write a personal message...more despicable politicking from the nasty party and the vile Lynton Crosby. Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity. Also how do you know this "apparently" factual story isn't a lie made up by the labour lot? Cos Clegg is telling the same story." Oh well if Clegg says it certainly it must be true he's proven himself quite the man of his word. Personally if put it down to just none of the politicians really giving a crap and it being organised a bit Meh. Pm obviously they remember to send him one so he can write it because well hes the pm hes expected to, but the others probbaly didn't care and just expected to be handed one to place. If they really gave a shit they'd have sorted them out themselves | |||
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"One of my ancestors was killed in WW1. I tracked down where he was killed and it was a field miles feom anywhere with a railway embankment. He was killed defending the embankment. "That is pathos right there. | |||
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"John Lennon said "what if 'they' gave a war and nobody came" think about that for a moment "They" are the ones always starting war but never in the front line. How many people died just so the WW1 end could be 11.11.11?.... Ie between the. Agreement to end hostilities and the chosen "memorable" date!.... " And those that died after. | |||
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