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"I'd like to see the rest of the World boycott all the big three ! America, Russia and China ! "britains and the EU are slaves to America so they should ban all them as well. then the world would come to a halt. | |||
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"My point I'd all countries shud the big three to bog off ! Don't buy off them , don't have Sport with them don't sell to them ! Then let's see what happens "America and Russia and China would still survive that very well. Firstly they're large enough that they can supply themselves with pretty much anything they need. Secondly, anything that one couldn't supply itself it could get from one of the other two and all you'd create would be the largest economic alliance in history which would really really really hold the world to hostage. Thirdly, the world would go bankrupt when those three, the u.s. in particular but don't think the other two don't factor, called in the debt that the rest of the world owes them. | |||
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but wouldn't we also have Peace ? Just a thought  | |||
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"Could be true but wouldn't we also have Peace ? Just a thought "Attempting to Blackmail larger nations than us is liable to have the exact opposite effect, people seem to think that Britain and even the EU are superpowers which is far from the truth. Gimp | |||
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"Could be true but wouldn't we also have Peace ? Just a thought "Not necessarily. Lack of resources is one of the driving forces in conflict in recent years. Firstly, as a historic example, let's take the bombing of pearl harbor. The u.s. cut oil export to japan by a minscule percent but that percent lost meant that within two years Japan would have been unable to maintain use of its military. They were that reliant on oil imports. Look what it drive them to do. Secondly, look at the rise of conflict in the developing world in order to obtain resources for survival. The piracy of the cost of Somalia started largely in response to the Loss of the fish supplies on which they were completely reliant for survival. Fish cargos are actually among the most pirated ones. Lack of resources actually leads to conflict. And you can bet that if you tried to blockade the 'big three' then every state would suddenly deem their resources of such high value that the necessary alliances the smaller countries would need in order to survive wild not come about because they would be outside the 'national interest' | |||
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"I see little point in the EU if they are not to hold together as a single voice. It is acting as an equivalent superpower just on land mass but doesn't have either the solidarity, or backbone to do anything. If the whole slogan for being in the EU was 'better in than out' then you can consider it rhetoric as soon as it comes to any kind of intervention. It annoys me, how they the EU can wield so much power in so many areas but then be so indecisive. When Russia first started backing Crimea it was judged as a step too far. They promised some kind of sanctions within 10 days I think it was. 2 months later and bodies are falling out of the sky and they are still scratching their fannies. They look absolutely amateur imo, it's indecision in the long run will impact a great deal more than any sanctions I'd say." Why do the EU look amateur? because they are a bunch of amateurs. | |||
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"My point I'd all countries shud the big three to bog off ! Don't buy off them , don't have Sport with them don't sell to them ! Then let's see what happens
America and Russia and China would still survive that very well. Firstly they're large enough that they can supply themselves with pretty much anything they need. Secondly, anything that one couldn't supply itself it could get from one of the other two and all you'd create would be the largest economic alliance in history which would really really really hold the world to hostage. Thirdly, the world would go bankrupt when those three, the u.s. in particular but don't think the other two don't factor, called in the debt that the rest of the world owes them. "Russia is in economic meltdown with soaring inflation and rocketing interest rates. Putin is under massive pressure at home which is why the sanctions aren't harder-cos he's an unstable nutter with a massive military. But yes, sanctions should be harder. | |||
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"So the EU should sanction Russia because of Ukraine? I've always been a believer in staring a story at the beginning, and the current problems there are somewhere around chapter 10. Firstly it was the EU that egged on the original "rebels" to overthrow what was a democratically elected (although corrupt) government, with promises of EU membership. The current "elected" government are only in place because the Russian speakers in the east boycotted the election. So the EU (especially the useless Kathy Ashton and the obnoxious Guy Verkofstadt) should take a long hard look at its own actions before it starts sanctioning anyone. Nobel Peace Prize winners LOL. As for Putin, he has seen a chance to snatch the Crimea back into Russia, it was always part of Russia until 1918 and there was no reason to dispute which bit of the Soviet Union it belonged to during that era. Since then it has been part of Russia in everything but name. The vast majority of the population are ethnic Russians and the local economy is dominated by the Russian naval bases there and the tourist industry mainly from Russia. Where Putin is very wrong is that by arming the rebels in the east of Ukraine he missed a golden opportunity to show some statesmanship (if he is capable of such a thing) and bring the two sides together. There is no doubt that Putin is a thug who runs the country as his own personal kleptocracy, and he certainly has some of the blood of MH 17 on his hands. But for the EU to sanction him is very much pots and kettles. " From the news reports at the time, the Ukraine people realised their government was corrupt and were using peaceful protest before the violence erupted. I had not heard any promises of EU membership only initial interest talks. My point is, that when the Ukraine PM fled to Crimea (when his millions were revealed) and the divide reinforced by Russia offering protection and/or arms/military personnel. The EU puffed their chest up and said it would not tolerate any non state intervention. They were the ones who immediately said heavy sanctions would be imposed if Russia didn't back out. It failed and Russia continued. Russia then furthered with military support to include tanks and more than likely a small number of ground troop. The EU again talked tough, and now it comes to the shooting down of a passenger plane which is widely recognised to be a Russian missile (whoever pulled the trigger). Again the EU talked tough - albeit it being Cameron doing all the heckling, though again, there are no real sanctions as they have realised their position. It has made a mockery of them. Either they stand by their word and support is given or the country is left to heal it's own wounds, but I see little point in the EU trying to assert it's authority when it is obviously in disharmony itself. | |||
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"My point I'd all countries shud the big three to bog off ! Don't buy off them , don't have Sport with them don't sell to them ! Then let's see what happens "WW3 perhaps?  | |||
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"And how would you feel when Russia turns back and says "hey, you know that nice Russian gas you guys like so much? The price just trippled"" ye, I suppose it's best we stand back, do nuthin, and pat ourselves on the back that we didnt shoot anyone  | |||
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"And how would you feel when Russia turns back and says "hey, you know that nice Russian gas you guys like so much? The price just trippled" ye, I suppose it's best we stand back, do nuthin, and pat ourselves on the back that we didnt shoot anyone "Yep, spot on!!  | |||
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"I'd like to see the rest of the World boycott all the big three ! America, Russia and China ! "any idea of just how many British jobs are dependent on imports linked to production or actual production for companies from those 3..? just a thought.. | |||
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"And how would you feel when Russia turns back and says "hey, you know that nice Russian gas you guys like so much? The price just trippled"" We (Scots) are always being told there's loads of oil and gas left in the North Sea - or are we being lied to (again)? | |||
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"And how would you feel when Russia turns back and says "hey, you know that nice Russian gas you guys like so much? The price just trippled" We (Scots) are always being told there's loads of oil and gas left in the North Sea - or are we being lied to (again)?" The reserves are there but: Refineries aren't, and that type of infrastructure isn't cheap to build and maintain. Does Britain alone hold rights to the entire reserve? If most of it is in international waters then Britain can't access the amount that it would need. How does the north sea reserve compare to the ones held by the three countries he proposed be boycotted? | |||
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"And how would you feel when Russia turns back and says "hey, you know that nice Russian gas you guys like so much? The price just trippled" We (Scots) are always being told there's loads of oil and gas left in the North Sea - or are we being lied to (again)? The reserves are there but: Refineries aren't, and that type of infrastructure isn't cheap to build and maintain. Does Britain alone hold rights to the entire reserve? If most of it is in international waters then Britain can't access the amount that it would need. How does the north sea reserve compare to the ones held by the three countries he proposed be boycotted? " We have a huge petrochemical plant at Grangemouth (Ineos) which is having to import fracked products from the USA to keep it busy. | |||
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"And how would you feel when Russia turns back and says "hey, you know that nice Russian gas you guys like so much? The price just trippled"" the uk doesn't really rely on Russian gas.... only 10% of supplies.. and would be even less if they can decide on fracking..... the countries in europe that most rely on Russian Gas are spain, italy, greece and Germany (which basically gets half its gas from russia) its going to turn into a battle of those who want to hit russia hard (UK and most of the eastern half of the EU) as opposed to those looking at self interest (germany for gas, france because they have a ship defence deal) if MH17 has contained a lot of germans... the pressure to act would have been higher..... it is going to be interested how many of the countries who dont want to hit russia hard look the dutch in the face.... the dutch will now be at the lead with the uk for much harder sanctions... | |||
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"And how would you feel when Russia turns back and says "hey, you know that nice Russian gas you guys like so much? The price just trippled"" Then we just start fracking. | |||
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"So the EU should sanction Russia because of Ukraine? I've always been a believer in staring a story at the beginning, and the current problems there are somewhere around chapter 10. Firstly it was the EU that egged on the original "rebels" to overthrow what was a democratically elected (although corrupt) government, with promises of EU membership. The current "elected" government are only in place because the Russian speakers in the east boycotted the election. So the EU (especially the useless Kathy Ashton and the obnoxious Guy Verkofstadt) should take a long hard look at its own actions before it starts sanctioning anyone. Nobel Peace Prize winners LOL. As for Putin, he has seen a chance to snatch the Crimea back into Russia, it was always part of Russia until 1918 and there was no reason to dispute which bit of the Soviet Union it belonged to during that era. Since then it has been part of Russia in everything but name. The vast majority of the population are ethnic Russians and the local economy is dominated by the Russian naval bases there and the tourist industry mainly from Russia. Where Putin is very wrong is that by arming the rebels in the east of Ukraine he missed a golden opportunity to show some statesmanship (if he is capable of such a thing) and bring the two sides together. There is no doubt that Putin is a thug who runs the country as his own personal kleptocracy, and he certainly has some of the blood of MH 17 on his hands. But for the EU to sanction him is very much pots and kettles. From the news reports at the time, the Ukraine people realised their government was corrupt and were using peaceful protest before the violence erupted. I had not heard any promises of EU membership only initial interest talks. My point is, that when the Ukraine PM fled to Crimea (when his millions were revealed) and the divide reinforced by Russia offering protection and/or arms/military personnel. The EU puffed their chest up and said it would not tolerate any non state intervention. They were the ones who immediately said heavy sanctions would be imposed if Russia didn't back out. It failed and Russia continued. Russia then furthered with military support to include tanks and more than likely a small number of ground troop. The EU again talked tough, and now it comes to the shooting down of a passenger plane which is widely recognised to be a Russian missile (whoever pulled the trigger). Again the EU talked tough - albeit it being Cameron doing all the heckling, though again, there are no real sanctions as they have realised their position. It has made a mockery of them. Either they stand by their word and support is given or the country is left to heal it's own wounds, but I see little point in the EU trying to assert it's authority when it is obviously in disharmony itself." All the above are fair points, but the EU standing by its word is a contradiction in terms. Also nobody could mock the EU as they make such a good job of mocking themselves. | |||
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"Since when has the EU had a foreign policy? When were the British people consulted about that?" Consult? The EU? Don't be silly. | |||
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"And how would you feel when Russia turns back and says "hey, you know that nice Russian gas you guys like so much? The price just trippled" the uk doesn't really rely on Russian gas.... only 10% of supplies.. and would be even less if they can decide on fracking..... the countries in europe that most rely on Russian Gas are spain, italy, greece and Germany (which basically gets half its gas from russia) its going to turn into a battle of those who want to hit russia hard (UK and most of the eastern half of the EU) as opposed to those looking at self interest (germany for gas, france because they have a ship defence deal) if MH17 has contained a lot of germans... the pressure to act would have been higher..... it is going to be interested how many of the countries who dont want to hit russia hard look the dutch in the face.... the dutch will now be at the lead with the uk for much harder sanctions..." What you need to remember is while we may not use masses of it, what happens when the people who do have to get it from elsewhere now are having to out bid them for our existing suppliers. | |||
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"I can't see much happening in terms of anti Russian sanctions until all the bodies have been returned." Even then a lot won't the reliance on Russian gas is an issue if they respond similarly. | |||
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"To be honest I think that it's the standard, too little, too late! The fact is we and the other nations in the nuclear club guaranteed the Ukraine borders and sovereignty when the USSR dissolved in return for it surrendering its nuclear arsenal. This we have failed to do spectacularly. I seem to remember that the last time the world failed to protect a country from an aggressive neighbour led to the Bosnian war. Of course I could keep going back... Sanctions = Tacit acceptance of the situation. " You could come forward and look at Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and lybia. There is more blood on our hands from any one of our interventions there than there is on Russian hands for this whole sit u at ion. | |||
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"To be honest I think that it's the standard, too little, too late! The fact is we and the other nations in the nuclear club guaranteed the Ukraine borders and sovereignty when the USSR dissolved in return for it surrendering its nuclear arsenal. This we have failed to do spectacularly. I seem to remember that the last time the world failed to protect a country from an aggressive neighbour led to the Bosnian war. Of course I could keep going back... Sanctions = Tacit acceptance of the situation. You could come forward and look at Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and lybia. There is more blood on our hands from any one of our interventions there than there is on Russian hands for this whole sit u at ion. " On Iraq I would agree. The west should have never got involved, the wrong war for the wrong reasons. Even though Saddam was an evil bastard sometimes it's "better the devil you know" On Afghanistan I would still agree with your basic assertion but after 911 who could argue against going for the terrorist training bases? Libya? ditto Iraq, but you can't have it both ways when we come to Syria. Damned if we do and damned if we don't springs to mind. | |||
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"To be honest I think that it's the standard, too little, too late! The fact is we and the other nations in the nuclear club guaranteed the Ukraine borders and sovereignty when the USSR dissolved in return for it surrendering its nuclear arsenal. This we have failed to do spectacularly. I seem to remember that the last time the world failed to protect a country from an aggressive neighbour led to the Bosnian war. Of course I could keep going back... Sanctions = Tacit acceptance of the situation. You could come forward and look at Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and lybia. There is more blood on our hands from any one of our interventions there than there is on Russian hands for this whole sit u at ion. " Really? How many innocents died in Bosnia, Cambodia, WW2? Now compare that to the innocents killed as a result of the conflicts you name? Bet that more die as a result of appeasement than as a result of proactive actions. | |||
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"To be honest I think that it's the standard, too little, too late! The fact is we and the other nations in the nuclear club guaranteed the Ukraine borders and sovereignty when the USSR dissolved in return for it surrendering its nuclear arsenal. This we have failed to do spectacularly. I seem to remember that the last time the world failed to protect a country from an aggressive neighbour led to the Bosnian war. Of course I could keep going back... Sanctions = Tacit acceptance of the situation. You could come forward and look at Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and lybia. There is more blood on our hands from any one of our interventions there than there is on Russian hands for this whole sit u at ion. Really? How many innocents died in Bosnia, Cambodia, WW2? Now compare that to the innocents killed as a result of the conflicts you name? Bet that more die as a result of appeasement than as a result of proactive actions. " Fair point. I wonder what the world would be like today if Britain and France had stood firm and kicked Hitler out of the Rhineland in 1936. | |||
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"To be honest I think that it's the standard, too little, too late! The fact is we and the other nations in the nuclear club guaranteed the Ukraine borders and sovereignty when the USSR dissolved in return for it surrendering its nuclear arsenal. This we have failed to do spectacularly. I seem to remember that the last time the world failed to protect a country from an aggressive neighbour led to the Bosnian war. Of course I could keep going back... Sanctions = Tacit acceptance of the situation. You could come forward and look at Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and lybia. There is more blood on our hands from any one of our interventions there than there is on Russian hands for this whole sit u at ion. Really? How many innocents died in Bosnia, Cambodia, WW2? Now compare that to the innocents killed as a result of the conflicts you name? Bet that more die as a result of appeasement than as a result of proactive actions. Fair point. I wonder what the world would be like today if Britain and France had stood firm and kicked Hitler out of the Rhineland in 1936." I will admit its always a hard choice when it comes to standing up, and that the more you do the easier it is to go from being the champion of right to the oppressor of freedom, but I truly believe that doing nothing is a lot more dangerous than acting. I am a hawk and believe that it is hawks not doves that keep the peace. | |||
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"Have I heard correct that Russia will stop the fuel to Europe? " I doubt that will happen because it's in both European & Russian financial interest. | |||
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"Have I heard correct that Russia will stop the fuel to Europe? I doubt that will happen because it's in both European & Russian financial interest." I think that Russia can pipe its oil to China. It would lose a small percentage but they could cut us off. But this I think is one of their oonly economic weapons, so you'll find them holding that card until the last, as if that were used, the EU and US would have no reason left to excersise so much restraint. I don't mean we would go in, but it would be a full on economic war at the minimum. And China would laugh all the way to the bank! | |||
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"Have I heard correct that Russia will stop the fuel to Europe? " Why stop the fuel when you can just raise the price? | |||
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"Have I heard correct that Russia will stop the fuel to Europe? Why stop the fuel when you can just raise the price? " Europe isn't wholly dependant on Russian gas supplies although Germany is more so than us. | |||
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"Have I heard correct that Russia will stop the fuel to Europe? Why stop the fuel when you can just raise the price? Europe isn't wholly dependant on Russian gas supplies although Germany is more so than us. " We are all reliant on it to the point if they switched it off prices would more than likely double from other providers as it would have to be liquified and shipped in. The reality is Russia has a lot of power with gas availability. | |||
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"Have I heard correct that Russia will stop the fuel to Europe? Why stop the fuel when you can just raise the price? Europe isn't wholly dependant on Russian gas supplies although Germany is more so than us. " Gas like oil is a pretty inelastic product in terms of demand they need X amount every month. If one supplier cuts them off they have to buy elsewhere which will be very very expensive and will also affect us as our gas prices will rise as why would you sell gad to Britain when Germany is willing to pay more as they're desperate to replace thier Russian supply. | |||
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"It's difficult to be too tough with Russia when most of Europes gas supplies come from Siberia" He's got it in one!  | |||
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"To be honest I think that it's the standard, too little, too late! The fact is we and the other nations in the nuclear club guaranteed the Ukraine borders and sovereignty when the USSR dissolved in return for it surrendering its nuclear arsenal. This we have failed to do spectacularly. I seem to remember that the last time the world failed to protect a country from an aggressive neighbour led to the Bosnian war. Of course I could keep going back... Sanctions = Tacit acceptance of the situation. You could come forward and look at Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and lybia. There is more blood on our hands from any one of our interventions there than there is on Russian hands for this whole sit u at ion. Really? How many innocents died in Bosnia, Cambodia, WW2? Now compare that to the innocents killed as a result of the conflicts you name? Bet that more die as a result of appeasement than as a result of proactive actions. Fair point. I wonder what the world would be like today if Britain and France had stood firm and kicked Hitler out of the Rhineland in 1936." It'd look the same, most probably - WWII would have perhaps started earlier. More to the point - Britain and France could have stopped Hitler from doing precisely bugger all by themselves... | |||
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Jenny xxx | |||
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"Yes. Like assassinating Putin " Wouldn't that be tantamount to declaring war on Russia? Of all the idiotic foreign policy moves I can think of, poking the bear is pretty much up there. | |||
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"Yes. Like assassinating Putin Wouldn't that be tantamount to declaring war on Russia? Of all the idiotic foreign policy moves I can think of, poking the bear is pretty much up there. " The assassination will be directed by Hollywood Russia would never know who was responsible Til it was time for a sequel | |||
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"To be honest I think that it's the standard, too little, too late! The fact is we and the other nations in the nuclear club guaranteed the Ukraine borders and sovereignty when the USSR dissolved in return for it surrendering its nuclear arsenal. This we have failed to do spectacularly. I seem to remember that the last time the world failed to protect a country from an aggressive neighbour led to the Bosnian war. Of course I could keep going back... Sanctions = Tacit acceptance of the situation. You could come forward and look at Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and lybia. There is more blood on our hands from any one of our interventions there than there is on Russian hands for this whole sit u at ion. Really? How many innocents died in Bosnia, Cambodia, WW2? Now compare that to the innocents killed as a result of the conflicts you name? Bet that more die as a result of appeasement than as a result of proactive actions. Fair point. I wonder what the world would be like today if Britain and France had stood firm and kicked Hitler out of the Rhineland in 1936. It'd look the same, most probably - WWII would have perhaps started earlier. More to the point - Britain and France could have stopped Hitler from doing precisely bugger all by themselves..." Rhineland=WW2 starting earlier? Oh contrare. Hitler had issued specific orders that should any moves be made to oppose his occupation if the Rhineland then his forces were to withdraw. France and Britains acceptance of the situation and failure to respond aggressively only emboldened him to move on Austria, Sudetanland and then Poland; just like our modern day acceptance of Putins moves into Abkhazia, South Ossettia, Crimea have emboldened Russia into moving into the Ukraine. | |||
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" Rhineland=WW2 starting earlier? Oh contrare. Hitler had issued specific orders that should any moves be made to oppose his occupation if the Rhineland then his forces were to withdraw. France and Britains acceptance of the situation and failure to respond aggressively only emboldened him to move on Austria, Sudetanland and then Poland; just like our modern day acceptance of Putins moves into Abkhazia, South Ossettia, Crimea have emboldened Russia into moving into the Ukraine. " Yeah. Specific orders, but for how long? | |||
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"Couldn't we just call them some nasty names, whilst pointing our finger, Then stop talking to them, And look really really angry. Oops sorry,we're already doing that. "You forgot to add a couple of stone throwing sessions into the mix to show we are really angry. | |||
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"To be honest I think that it's the standard, too little, too late! The fact is we and the other nations in the nuclear club guaranteed the Ukraine borders and sovereignty when the USSR dissolved in return for it surrendering its nuclear arsenal. This we have failed to do spectacularly. I seem to remember that the last time the world failed to protect a country from an aggressive neighbour led to the Bosnian war. Of course I could keep going back... Sanctions = Tacit acceptance of the situation. You could come forward and look at Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and lybia. There is more blood on our hands from any one of our interventions there than there is on Russian hands for this whole sit u at ion. Really? How many innocents died in Bosnia, Cambodia, WW2? Now compare that to the innocents killed as a result of the conflicts you name? Bet that more die as a result of appeasement than as a result of proactive actions. Fair point. I wonder what the world would be like today if Britain and France had stood firm and kicked Hitler out of the Rhineland in 1936. It'd look the same, most probably - WWII would have perhaps started earlier. More to the point - Britain and France could have stopped Hitler from doing precisely bugger all by themselves..." Not quite true. In 1936 Hitler was nowhere near ready for war and he knew it. He took a very big gamble by marching into the Rhineland and predicted (correctly) that Britain and France would do nothing. However he confided in Goebbels (according to his diaries) that if it went wrong and Britain and France attacked him, the game would be up and he would commit suicide. Did he mean it? who knows. Had he carried it through then there probably wouldn't have been a war against Germany. The Nazi party, the foundations of which were built around the cult of Hitler would have withered away without him. Would there have still been a war in Europe? That is another very big question that deserves a much longer answer than I could write on here, but suffice to say that I think the western powers would have eventually been drawn in to some kind of conflict with Stalin's Soviet Union. | |||
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"Couldn't we just call them some nasty names, whilst pointing our finger, Then stop talking to them, And look really really angry. Oops sorry,we're already doing that.
You forgot to add a couple of stone throwing sessions into the mix to show we are really angry."But all women throwing stones would have to wear false beards. | |||
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