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Joint Enterprise

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By *icketysplits OP   Woman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

I watched the drama "Common" last night and I'm watching the documentary "Guilty by Association" this evening.

I met some mothers last year fighting a case to overturn the joint enterprise convictions of their sons.

What do you think of people (largely young men) all being convicted of the same crime by association?

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

saw the drama last night also..

does seem to be a knee jerk catch all piece of legislation however can also see the problems whereby a group are involved and all stay schtum..

does the same proviso apply to cases eg. financial crimes, the recent inter bank lending rate etc..?

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By *icketysplits OP   Woman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound


"saw the drama last night also..

does seem to be a knee jerk catch all piece of legislation however can also see the problems whereby a group are involved and all stay schtum..

does the same proviso apply to cases eg. financial crimes, the recent inter bank lending rate etc..? "

Or phone hackers?

This is a really difficult one for me as I too can see how it could be used when nothing else is available. However, it also seems counter-intuitive for our criminal justice.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I seem to remember a case in the last couple of weeks where a group of Lads got put away for murder because it couldnt be decided who actually committed the act which i found a bit worrying.

Gimp

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire


"saw the drama last night also..

does seem to be a knee jerk catch all piece of legislation however can also see the problems whereby a group are involved and all stay schtum..

does the same proviso apply to cases eg. financial crimes, the recent inter bank lending rate etc..?

Or phone hackers?

This is a really difficult one for me as I too can see how it could be used when nothing else is available. However, it also seems counter-intuitive for our criminal justice.

"

good point about the hacking..

agree with what your saying its a difficult one..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The programme did an excellent job in highlighting the grey areas within the law.

Primarily introduced for cases where more than one attacker was involved and the cause of death could not be specifically linked to an individual. Or, if say the attacker was goaded or encouraged by an onlooker. Amongst others

As with many laws there are many grey areas and interpretations.

Will catch the doc on iPlayer as i forgot all about it!

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By *icketysplits OP   Woman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound


"The programme did an excellent job in highlighting the grey areas within the law.

Primarily introduced for cases where more than one attacker was involved and the cause of death could not be specifically linked to an individual. Or, if say the attacker was goaded or encouraged by an onlooker. Amongst others

As with many laws there are many grey areas and interpretations.

Will catch the doc on iPlayer as i forgot all about it!"

It is worth watching.

Newsnight has a special discussion piece on this tomorrow evening I think.

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By *inaTitzTV/TS
over a year ago

Titz Towers, North Notts

I was reading into joint enterprise last year with work and found it an interesting part of law. There was quite a tricky question based on it in the exam.

It's definitely a grey area and the amount of hoops people had to jump through to withdraw from a joint enterprise at the various stages was rather fascinating.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"The programme did an excellent job in highlighting the grey areas within the law.

Primarily introduced for cases where more than one attacker was involved and the cause of death could not be specifically linked to an individual. Or, if say the attacker was goaded or encouraged by an onlooker. Amongst others

As with many laws there are many grey areas and interpretations.

Will catch the doc on iPlayer as i forgot all about it!

It is worth watching.

Newsnight has a special discussion piece on this tomorrow evening I think.

"

Thanks for the tip. Newsnight is set to record

hopefully it's on iPlayer tonight, I'm intrigued

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By *icketysplits OP   Woman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound


"I was reading into joint enterprise last year with work and found it an interesting part of law. There was quite a tricky question based on it in the exam.

It's definitely a grey area and the amount of hoops people had to jump through to withdraw from a joint enterprise at the various stages was rather fascinating. "

When I was "studying" law 30 years ago it was barely covered as it had hardly been used in the previous 30 years. How times change.

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By *inaTitzTV/TS
over a year ago

Titz Towers, North Notts


"

When I was "studying" law 30 years ago it was barely covered as it had hardly been used in the previous 30 years. How times change.

"

Laws a funny beast. So much of it is from time immemorial, but there is a lot of change, too.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

They should show Let Him Have It. That was joint enterprise in the '50's if i remember rightly

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By *icketysplits OP   Woman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound


"

When I was "studying" law 30 years ago it was barely covered as it had hardly been used in the previous 30 years. How times change.

Laws a funny beast. So much of it is from time immemorial, but there is a lot of change, too. "

As was pointed out, this is 300 year old law.

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By *icketysplits OP   Woman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound


"They should show Let Him Have It. That was joint enterprise in the '50's if i remember rightly"

The Bentley case? That focused on him being a bit older and goading the shooting with the infamous "let him have it" cry. I hadn't thought of it as joint enterprise. I'm going to have to do some reading up now.

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

It has its place and has its flaws.

I recall the case of a young student being dragged off his pushbike and kicked to death for protecting his rucksack. They could prove all 4-5 lads were there. They could prove a couple of them had kicked the guy causing non-fatal injuries. They could not prove which one smashed his head to a pulp on the pavement and which stood watching. In such cases, do the fucking lot of them for the murder... no pissing about working out which are accessories, which just assaulted him and then stopped or which just stomped on his bike.

If people walk around knowing their mate is carrying a gun, who goes on to use it in their presence... and then the lot of them all keep schtum as to which one had the gun and which one used it..... yeah do the lot of them for the most serious crime.

It's difficult though when used to deter gang activity, sometimes it will get the right people and deter others from thinking their is safety in silent numbers.... the problem with that is the 'sometimes'.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"They should show Let Him Have It. That was joint enterprise in the '50's if i remember rightly

The Bentley case? That focused on him being a bit older and goading the shooting with the infamous "let him have it" cry. I hadn't thought of it as joint enterprise. I'm going to have to do some reading up now.

"

You're right on the age thing but I'm sure he was tried under joint enterprise. I might be wrong though

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It is a massive grey area. And I'm sure there are some injustices in the UK, however if you are knowingly involving yourself with others who commit crimes then why is it such a surprise when the "innocent" get arrested, especially when not giving the real perpetrator up. Everyone has a choice at the end of the day, some decisions are obviously easy than others. But these young men and to an extent parents should and need to take responsibility for decisions and actions.

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By *icketysplits OP   Woman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound


"They should show Let Him Have It. That was joint enterprise in the '50's if i remember rightly

The Bentley case? That focused on him being a bit older and goading the shooting with the infamous "let him have it" cry. I hadn't thought of it as joint enterprise. I'm going to have to do some reading up now.

You're right on the age thing but I'm sure he was tried under joint enterprise. I might be wrong though"

You are right. I've just read the wiki entry (too late for anything heavier). Although with his mental age being so low this is one of those difficult cases.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"It has its place and has its flaws.

I recall the case of a young student being dragged off his pushbike and kicked to death for protecting his rucksack. They could prove all 4-5 lads were there. They could prove a couple of them had kicked the guy causing non-fatal injuries. They could not prove which one smashed his head to a pulp on the pavement and which stood watching. In such cases, do the fucking lot of them for the murder... no pissing about working out which are accessories, which just assaulted him and then stopped or which just stomped on his bike.

If people walk around knowing their mate is carrying a gun, who goes on to use it in their presence... and then the lot of them all keep schtum as to which one had the gun and which one used it..... yeah do the lot of them for the most serious crime.

It's difficult though when used to deter gang activity, sometimes it will get the right people and deter others from thinking their is safety in silent numbers.... the problem with that is the 'sometimes'."

I remember that one! Was horrific.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The British 'justice system' is a load of cobblers. I now have NO FAITH IN THE SYSTEM WHATSOEVER.

If you have complaints made to the local plod by a group of blokes who claimed you assaulted them on a night out, and then they blame you and collude in their statements, you would think that even the most half-witted of magistrates should be able to see through their lies (not that it should ever have come to court as the CPS should have ed it out, but then again they're a bunch of self-serving tossers who just pick and choose cases they think they can get a result on).

One person, assaulting four guys built like brick outhouses at the same time, I don't think so somehow.

Anyway, if I ever see someone, even a copper, getting battered in the street in the future, I'm not going to be going to assist in case I get charged with assault by someone, as this incident described above all happened to a cousin of mine, and now he has a criminal record for something he didn't do.

Up until this incident I had a degree of respect for the law and the system (believing that the truth would prevail), but now I realise that it's a case of whatever the system wants to do to you, it can.

He could have appealed the verdict, but this would have meant going to Crown Court and risking a far greater sentence. And if the system can get it SO wrong through the magistrates court, then why risk doubling the potential sentence at Crown Court.

British justice...it's dead in the water.

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By *icketysplits OP   Woman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound


"The British 'justice system' is a load of cobblers. I now have NO FAITH IN THE SYSTEM WHATSOEVER.

If you have complaints made to the local plod by a group of blokes who claimed you assaulted them on a night out, and then they blame you and collude in their statements, you would think that even the most half-witted of magistrates should be able to see through their lies (not that it should ever have come to court as the CPS should have ed it out, but then again they're a bunch of self-serving tossers who just pick and choose cases they think they can get a result on).

One person, assaulting four guys built like brick outhouses at the same time, I don't think so somehow.

Anyway, if I ever see someone, even a copper, getting battered in the street in the future, I'm not going to be going to assist in case I get charged with assault by someone, as this incident described above all happened to a cousin of mine, and now he has a criminal record for something he didn't do.

Up until this incident I had a degree of respect for the law and the system (believing that the truth would prevail), but now I realise that it's a case of whatever the system wants to do to you, it can.

He could have appealed the verdict, but this would have meant going to Crown Court and risking a far greater sentence. And if the system can get it SO wrong through the magistrates court, then why risk doubling the potential sentence at Crown Court.

British justice...it's dead in the water.

"

Was that a joint enterprise conviction?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Joint enterprise by the four bastards who fitted him up through lies and collusion. If the tables had been turned though, the four would have been in the position of joint enterprise that night.

Justice will be served, one at a time...

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By *reelove1969Couple
over a year ago

bristol


"I seem to remember a case in the last couple of weeks where a group of Lads got put away for murder because it couldnt be decided who actually committed the act which i found a bit worrying.

Gimp"

would you have found it worrying if it had been your wife in the morgue ?

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By *an_WoodMan
over a year ago

Stafford

My wife is in the morgue ! Now you tell me

By association sounds light weight. I think legally there needs to be evidence of compliance leading to the crime. Did read a thought provoking account of a Mother where the son was convicted but not the murderer.

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By *reelove1969Couple
over a year ago

bristol

convicted of what ?

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By *an_WoodMan
over a year ago

Stafford

Death by stabbing in a street fight. Two groups of young men in a confrontation that had little explanation.

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By *reelove1969Couple
over a year ago

bristol

murder then ...thats what he was convicted of ?

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By *an_WoodMan
over a year ago

Stafford

Murder. Awful and the circumstances so avoidable. Good article but I think for now the balance is right.

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By *reelove1969Couple
over a year ago

bristol

this article sounds to be in the public domain ... could you tell me the case name ?

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By *an_WoodMan
over a year ago

Stafford

Sunday Times. News review.

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By *reelove1969Couple
over a year ago

bristol

can you recall case name ..probably easier to look up ?

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By *icketysplits OP   Woman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

The Newsnight discussion was not as crisp and punchy as I hoped for. It didn't advance the debate that had already been covered in the documentary the night before.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"The Newsnight discussion was not as crisp and punchy as I hoped for. It didn't advance the debate that had already been covered in the documentary the night before.

"

Balls! Forgot it and failed to record! iPlayer it is again

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By *icketysplits OP   Woman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound


"The Newsnight discussion was not as crisp and punchy as I hoped for. It didn't advance the debate that had already been covered in the documentary the night before.

Balls! Forgot it and failed to record! iPlayer it is again "

I can't do it all for you!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"The Newsnight discussion was not as crisp and punchy as I hoped for. It didn't advance the debate that had already been covered in the documentary the night before.

Balls! Forgot it and failed to record! iPlayer it is again

I can't do it all for you!"

I did watch the documentary though, which was really well done.

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By *inaTitzTV/TS
over a year ago

Titz Towers, North Notts

I listened to it this morning whilst fettling Spare Oom. Very interesting

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