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moaning ginger git

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

seriously - how can that bloke go on television moaning about the fact they wont let him fly as there is a good chance that the plane will be bought down by volcanic ash

give him the keys to the plane and tell him to go

sometimes people really do get on my goat

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

and ginger to boot???....not a lot going for him at all then really

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"and ginger to boot???....not a lot going for him at all then really "

Stu thats Hairist and cant be condoned

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I was thinking the same thing. Why don't someone tell him, "Would you rather be dead?" .. stupid arse.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Some people will moan at anything. I'll bet he is also on here and one of the ones who moan about getting no reply to his cut and paste messages.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

"surely planes can fly over the clouds"

i tell you - give him the keys and tell him to go

and take all the other moaning suicidal minnies with him

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

And I bet some tit will eventually say its the Governments fault or they should go and do something about it... You just wait, someone will say it!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

lol...mrs stu came home last night and said she hoped iceland were ready to be sued by the airlines.......

.

.

sat her down...patted her head and told her that they have no control over volcanoes and wind directions so I don't think they have to worry about waking up and finding willy "wonka" walsh storming the battlements

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

My daughter is stuck in all of rhis. Was due back from Turkey yesterday, got as far as Germany. Some kind man has befriended her - she sent his name and details to her boss and me...in case. She said it's all the Law and Order, CSI I used to force her to watch - lol!

She got into Frankfurst last night just heard she's in Calais waiting for a ferry.

She travels all the time, has been away on business for two weeks, just want to get home, showwer and have a kip but hasn't said a word about the airlines as she - and every one else with a grain of sense - knows this is no ones fault, and you'd have to be really dumb to think a whole country would shut down their entire aviation system on a whim if they could "fly over the clouds".

Some people take any opportunity to embarrass themselves!!!

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"lol...mrs stu came home last night and said she hoped iceland were ready to be sued by the airlines.......

.

.

"

doesnt matter even if we could sue them they would only hold a vote to ignore us

isnt that what they did when we asked for our money back?

actually blooming good idea !! no relief fund unless we get our money back

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

one of my friends runs a private corporate airline..and he was involved yesterday in the conference call with NATS and 400 other airlines/charter companies....most of the pilots and airlines were happy to fly but NATS had the final say..... they hold the trump card ...also have a friend who trains miltary pilots and he was happy to fly too but cant !

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead


"one of my friends runs a private corporate airline..and he was involved yesterday in the conference call with NATS and 400 other airlines/charter companies....most of the pilots and airlines were happy to fly but NATS had the final say..... they hold the trump card ...also have a friend who trains miltary pilots and he was happy to fly too but cant ! "

but the problem is that it only takes one plane to come down and then the question would have been "why did you let them up???"

they are in a no win, and it is a european wide decision....

I work for a european travel department, mind you all the ways we have managed to get back, god we are resourceful people at time......

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Personally, I am not at all convinced that the widespread closure of airports is absolutely necessary.

Aircraft engines have stopped whilst flying through a plume of volcanic discharge but we are actually talking about a relatively thin layer of dust at about 20,000 feet.

This is happening now because it is early days but if the volcano continues to erupt for years to come and we get this ash every time there is a northerly wind, just wait until commercial pressures kick in. Modern aircraft will be up and through that level of dust in seconds and local turboprops can navigate below it, albeit there maybe some work ahead for NATS operating temporary "airways."

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By *heWolfMan
over a year ago

warwickshire

What really annoyed me was the twat I've just heard interviewed on the radio warning that "if this carries on, there will be shortages of fresh food in the shops", by which he means all the irradiated crap that gets flown into this country all the time. We managed to survive without strawberries in April for centuries, I doubt there will be food riots because some selfish arsehole can't have some for their tea tonight (this undoubtably will be the same arsehole who self-righteously puts the carton in a recycling bin and thinks that makes it all OK).

Apart from the PITA this disruption is having on people trying to get home, I doubt the country will be on its knees because of it. Hey, maybe that means we can do without any new runways at Heathrow etc etc. Air travel/transport is something we can live with or without, it's not absolutely necessary, apart from for those who have MADE it absolutely necessary.(In which case......tough titties!)

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By *oe_Steve_NWestCouple
over a year ago

Bolton


"Personally, I am not at all convinced that the widespread closure of airports is absolutely necessary.

Aircraft engines have stopped whilst flying through a plume of volcanic discharge but we are actually talking about a relatively thin layer of dust at about 20,000 feet.

This is happening now because it is early days but if the volcano continues to erupt for years to come and we get this ash every time there is a northerly wind, just wait until commercial pressures kick in. Modern aircraft will be up and through that level of dust in seconds and local turboprops can navigate below it, albeit there maybe some work ahead for NATS operating temporary "airways."

"

Why are airports both here and on Europe shut then - is it a conspiracy? Z

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"one of my friends runs a private corporate airline..and he was involved yesterday in the conference call with NATS and 400 other airlines/charter companies....most of the pilots and airlines were happy to fly but NATS had the final say..... they hold the trump card ...also have a friend who trains miltary pilots and he was happy to fly too but cant !

but the problem is that it only takes one plane to come down and then the question would have been "why did you let them up???"

they are in a no win, and it is a european wide decision....

I work for a european travel department, mind you all the ways we have managed to get back, god we are resourceful people at time......"

It only takes one blocked fuel line. Beats me why people moan when safety is involved.

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By *exeteraWoman
over a year ago

Bridgend


"Personally, I am not at all convinced that the widespread closure of airports is absolutely necessary.

Aircraft engines have stopped whilst flying through a plume of volcanic discharge but we are actually talking about a relatively thin layer of dust at about 20,000 feet.

This is happening now because it is early days but if the volcano continues to erupt for years to come and we get this ash every time there is a northerly wind, just wait until commercial pressures kick in. Modern aircraft will be up and through that level of dust in seconds and local turboprops can navigate below it, albeit there maybe some work ahead for NATS operating temporary "airways."

Why are airports both here and on Europe shut then - is it a conspiracy? Z"

Me thinks so lol They've said we have our own sun so we can fecking stay in our own country for a change

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Who said it was a conspiracy?

I said............ Just wait until commercial pressures really kick in.

Swine Flu was a world wide pandemic remember and the world similarly over reacted.

No conspiracy theories here though just my personal opinion that airports across Europe will not be closed for the next two years whilst this volcano continues erupting. We will get some statement about engine mods, or new pitot designs but you can be sure that the airports will not stay shut for the next two years.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Bet we’d all feel differently if we were all sat at the airport yesterday waiting on a flight to go on a nice holiday

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There are two things here which are the "nub" of the safety issue:

1) Previously aircraft jet engines have stalled after ingesting volcanic ash. The engines did start again when the aircraft came out of the cloud but the engines were written off. Bear in mind though, this was flying through the plume from an eruption, not flying through airborne residue. There is always volcanic ash in the atmosphere - always.

2) Very fine volcanic ash can enter and block the pitot tubes and static vents on airliners. These tubes and vents provide air speed and altitude information to the pilots.

As scenario (1) is unlikely with the density of ash currently i the atmosphere, my guess is that the main worry is about (2) and there will probably be frantic testing to see how dense the ash needs to be to block the pitots and whether the risk is mitigated by expediting the climb, or descent, through the ash layer.

As stated before though, something will give cos the airlines cannot deal with grounded aircraft for too long before going bust and the clock is ticking. Commercial pressures will bring an end to this in my opinion.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"There are two things here which are the "nub" of the safety issue:

1) Previously aircraft jet engines have stalled after ingesting volcanic ash. The engines did start again when the aircraft came out of the cloud but the engines were written off. Bear in mind though, this was flying through the plume from an eruption, not flying through airborne residue. There is always volcanic ash in the atmosphere - always.

2) Very fine volcanic ash can enter and block the pitot tubes and static vents on airliners. These tubes and vents provide air speed and altitude information to the pilots.

As scenario (1) is unlikely with the density of ash currently i the atmosphere, my guess is that the main worry is about (2) and there will probably be frantic testing to see how dense the ash needs to be to block the pitots and whether the risk is mitigated by expediting the climb, or descent, through the ash layer.

As stated before though, something will give cos the airlines cannot deal with grounded aircraft for too long before going bust and the clock is ticking. Commercial pressures will bring an end to this in my opinion. "

seriously - if it was just over exaggerated as you suggest then i would presume pressure would have been bought down before now

im sitting here trying to work out why your response has annoyed me - will work it out and come back! ------ off to get white wine and look for tickets to the picture house

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

there a few flights left and landed at prestwick airport i know one of them was from barbadoes that was meant to land at london somewhere!! poor sods but on the plus side the weather lovely here and scenery great xx

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"there a few flights left and landed at prestwick airport i know one of them was from barbadoes that was meant to land at london somewhere!! poor sods but on the plus side the weather lovely here and scenery great xx"

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

enjoy the weather up there for now! just heard the five live say that the last time this happened in scotland it ruined the crops and caused a famine

cant have you lot going hungry now!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

hey iv just planted my potatoes carrots parsley pumpkins etc so i will be fine!!

mind you a famine wouldnt be a bad idea......

and dont you tell my mum that she be away bloody panic buyin lol!!!

i think i will still sleep soundly tonite knowin that there not much chance of a famine lol xxx

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"enjoy the weather up there for now! just heard the five live say that the last time this happened in scotland it ruined the crops and caused a famine

cant have you lot going hungry now! "

is ok....we'll just come down and eat everyone in England

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"enjoy the weather up there for now! just heard the five live say that the last time this happened in scotland it ruined the crops and caused a famine

cant have you lot going hungry now!

is ok....we'll just come down and eat everyone in England "

would that be a spit roast or lightly broiled?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"enjoy the weather up there for now! just heard the five live say that the last time this happened in scotland it ruined the crops and caused a famine

cant have you lot going hungry now!

is ok....we'll just come down and eat everyone in England "

hahahahahaha

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"enjoy the weather up there for now! just heard the five live say that the last time this happened in scotland it ruined the crops and caused a famine

cant have you lot going hungry now!

is ok....we'll just come down and eat everyone in England

would that be a spit roast or lightly broiled?"

oh....we're easy

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By *ustyWoman
over a year ago

inverclyde

my ex hubby flies ultra long haul and he is stuck as well out of the uk, if the authorities say no then its no and there is nothing that anyone can do about it, they are thinking about the pilots safety as well as passengers safety at end of the day

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think it's safe to assume that no plane is going to be brought down by this volcanic ash, they wouldn't be flying in the first place if it was so easy to bring them down, but it's also safe to assume they are not designed for constant flight in atmospheres thick with the abrasive volcanic ash, and that too many flights of that kind would shorten the life span of the engines or indeed the actual planes. So if they ignored the conditions they would have safety issues later on down the line, or would need to completely replace a large proportion of the fleet, and who do you suppose would pick up the bill for all that?

I think it's a combination of future safety and business costs that are mostly being considered, and the fact that it's a fairly unkown situation for these skies, so there maybe unknown risks in flying.

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By *heWolfMan
over a year ago

warwickshire


"There are two things here which are the "nub" of the safety issue:

1) Previously aircraft jet engines have stalled after ingesting volcanic ash. The engines did start again when the aircraft came out of the cloud but the engines were written off. Bear in mind though, this was flying through the plume from an eruption, not flying through airborne residue. There is always volcanic ash in the atmosphere - always.

2) Very fine volcanic ash can enter and block the pitot tubes and static vents on airliners. These tubes and vents provide air speed and altitude information to the pilots.

As scenario (1) is unlikely with the density of ash currently i the atmosphere, my guess is that the main worry is about (2) and there will probably be frantic testing to see how dense the ash needs to be to block the pitots and whether the risk is mitigated by expediting the climb, or descent, through the ash layer.

"

It's also corrosive. Just because a plane is ok after flying through a cloud of ash, it doesn't mean it's going to be safe 6 months down the line.

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By *riapus4uMan
over a year ago

Charlestown, Cornwall


"seriously - how can that bloke go on television moaning about the fact they wont let him fly as there is a good chance that the plane will be bought down by volcanic ash

give him the keys to the plane and tell him to go

sometimes people really do get on my goat "

If this was the guy on BBC News 'East Midlands Today'this morning saying the same thing, he was not only a moaner but a scottish moaner!! (hope he's not a member on Fab, lol).

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"hey iv just planted my potatoes carrots parsley pumpkins etc so i will be fine!!

mind you a famine wouldnt be a bad idea......

and dont you tell my mum that she be away bloody panic buyin lol!!!

i think i will still sleep soundly tonite knowin that there not much chance of a famine lol xxx "

I thought the famine was over.

Can they go home?

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By *riapus4uMan
over a year ago

Charlestown, Cornwall


"I think it's safe to assume that no plane is going to be brought down by this volcanic ash, they wouldn't be flying in the first place if it was so easy to bring them down, but it's also safe to assume they are not designed for constant flight in atmospheres thick with the abrasive volcanic ash, and that too many flights of that kind would shorten the life span of the engines or indeed the actual planes. So if they ignored the conditions they would have safety issues later on down the line, or would need to completely replace a large proportion of the fleet, and who do you suppose would pick up the bill for all that?

I think it's a combination of future safety and business costs that are mostly being considered, and the fact that it's a fairly unkown situation for these skies, so there maybe unknown risks in flying."

Not true, the silica based ash (glass) enters the jet engine at the front, becomes molten as it goes through the 1st stage of the engine, then cools in the second stage & solidify's causing a build of solid glass that WILL stall the engine. If that happens to all the engines = crash situation!!!.

I know, I was in engine test with Rolls-Royce for many years.

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By *riapus4uMan
over a year ago

Charlestown, Cornwall

I heard on the Jeremy Vine show yesterday from one emailer was "what the UK wants from Iceland is cash not ash"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"hey iv just planted my potatoes carrots parsley pumpkins etc so i will be fine!!

mind you a famine wouldnt be a bad idea......

and dont you tell my mum that she be away bloody panic buyin lol!!!

i think i will still sleep soundly tonite knowin that there not much chance of a famine lol xxx

I thought the famine was over.

Can they go home? "

ooohh wonder how many have just made a voodoo doll of u lol!! xx

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"enjoy the weather up there for now! just heard the five live say that the last time this happened in scotland it ruined the crops and caused a famine

cant have you lot going hungry now! "

Dont worry if the crops do fail we've always got deep fried mars bars and pizza to fall back on.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


" Not true, the silica based ash (glass) enters the jet engine at the front, becomes molten as it goes through the 1st stage of the engine, then cools in the second stage & solidify's causing a build of solid glass that WILL stall the engine. If that happens to all the engines = crash situation!!!.

I know, I was in engine test with Rolls-Royce for many years. "

Then you would know that there is always volcanic ash in the atmosphere and the amounts required to stall the engine require the engines to be operated within the immediate plume and not residue.

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By *obbytupperMan
over a year ago

Menston near Ilkley

Have we all forgotten Lockerbie?

The authorities obviously haven't thankfully!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


" Not true, the silica based ash (glass) enters the jet engine at the front, becomes molten as it goes through the 1st stage of the engine, then cools in the second stage & solidify's causing a build of solid glass that WILL stall the engine. If that happens to all the engines = crash situation!!!.

I know, I was in engine test with Rolls-Royce for many years.

Then you would know that there is always volcanic ash in the atmosphere and the amounts required to stall the engine require the engines to be operated within the immediate plume and not residue."

will you stop it or it be costa de la ayr for my holidays!!! xx

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"seriously - how can that bloke go on television moaning about the fact they wont let him fly as there is a good chance that the plane will be bought down by volcanic ash

give him the keys to the plane and tell him to go

sometimes people really do get on my goat

If this was the guy on BBC News 'East Midlands Today'this morning saying the same thing, he was not only a moaner but a scottish moaner!! (hope he's not a member on Fab, lol). "

well i was trying not to point that bit out!!!

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"I heard on the Jeremy Vine show yesterday from one emailer was "what the UK wants from Iceland is cash not ash" "

seriously generous i am finding it hard to type back to you with one eye closed!

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By *riapus4uMan
over a year ago

Charlestown, Cornwall


"I heard on the Jeremy Vine show yesterday from one emailer was "what the UK wants from Iceland is cash not ash"

seriously generous i am finding it hard to type back to you with one eye closed! "

And why would that be-not got ash in your eye I hope!!!.

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By *heWolfMan
over a year ago

warwickshire

Quick! Quick! Rush outside and look up, you'll see something amazing........

A sky with NO contrails! What a wonderful thing, not even any dissipated trails, just open blue sky, fantastic.

Now, if I can just shoot down the twat who is buzzing around here in his Cessna, things will be perfect.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

now they think its goin to be another few days!!

surprised no one blamed the immigrants yet lol xx

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I love how on forums there are plenty of experts that always know far more about a subject than the official bodies!!

Why hasnt anyone from here phoned NATS up to say its actually ok and the planes can start flying again??

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I love how on forums there are plenty of experts that always know far more about a subject than the official bodies!!

Why hasnt anyone from here phoned NATS up to say its actually ok and the planes can start flying again?? "

I was thinking the very same thing!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"now they think its goin to be another few days!!

surprised no one blamed the immigrants yet lol xx "

Give it time: if the planes don't start flying tomorrow the usual suspects will!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"enjoy the weather up there for now! just heard the five live say that the last time this happened in scotland it ruined the crops and caused a famine

cant have you lot going hungry now!

Cant be that serious our chippy open

is ok....we'll just come down and eat everyone in England

hahahahahaha"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

im waitin on the hysteria startin.....

food shortages!!! panic buyin!! feel free to add on!! xx

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By *ottongue49Man
over a year ago

BARNSLEY

no sex

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By *i 1 Get 1 FreeCouple (MM)
over a year ago

birmingham


"im waitin on the hysteria startin.....

food shortages!!! panic buyin!!"

Oooooooooooooooooo great excuse for the supermarkets to rip us off, I imagine the boardrooms are full as we speak

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

are the buses still running to my local ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"im waitin on the hysteria startin.....

food shortages!!! panic buyin!!

Oooooooooooooooooo great excuse for the supermarkets to rip us off, I imagine the boardrooms are full as we speak

"

you can feel it comin!!!

im waitin on the mummy call....... she great at the panic buyin!! xx

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By *adchickCouple
over a year ago

Cyprus


"im waitin on the hysteria startin.....

food shortages!!! panic buyin!!

Oooooooooooooooooo great excuse for the supermarkets to rip us off, I imagine the boardrooms are full as we speak

you can feel it comin!!!

im waitin on the mummy call....... she great at the panic buyin!! xx "

From the scientific website csmonitor .com :

Volcanic ash is made up of tiny pieces of glass that can shut down a jet engine.

A jet engine sucks in huge amounts of air that mixes with the fuel, ignites, and releases energy.

When these bits of volcanic glass get drawn into a gas turbine jet engine, they melt and fuse to parts of the engine. The melting point of volcanic ash is about 1,100 Celsius. But a jet engine operates at temperatures about 300 degrees hotter. The bits of glass tend to melt onto the fuel nozzles and turbine blades, rather than simply passing through the engine.

The result: the jet engine (or engines) may quit.

The volcanic ash tends to be concentrated at the high altitudes where commercial airliners fly. But near the ground, it's dispersed, and doesn't have the same effect on cars, trains, or ship engines.

Boeing, one of the world's largest manufacturers of commercial aircraft, says there have been about 90 incidents of aircraft being damaged by volcanic ash over the past three decades. One of the worst was the case of British Airways Flight 9 from London to Auckland, New Zealand. On June 24, 1982, the Boeing 747-200 flew through volcanic ash spewing from Mount Galunggung in Indonesia. All four jet engines quit within one minute. The plane dropped from 36,000 feet to 13,000 feet before the crew was able to restart each of the engines.

Pilots have found that jet engines can often be restarted once the aircraft drops to a lower altitude, as the glass on the engine parts hardens, shatters, and falls away.

The British Airways Flight 9 crew landed the aircraft safely in Jarkarta, Indonesia, but the volcanic ash had sandblasted the windshield of the aircraft, making it almost impossible for the pilots to see the runway.

Volcanic ash doesn't tend to show up on aircraft weather radar (and it didn't during that British Airways Flight 9), because the radar is designed to detect moisture (thunder clouds) and the ash is too dry - or the particles are too small - to register. Also, the volcanic ash is often not visible at night

................

If anyone wants to fly at the moment, they are either barking mad or just give them the keys..... there would be a few less nutters around!

**From Maddie..... who's scared witless of flying**

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

i hear you on that one! im not a fan of it and now even less so!! wasnt life more simpler before the net!! xx

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By *i 1 Get 1 FreeCouple (MM)
over a year ago

birmingham


"wasnt life more simpler before the net!! xx "

Would lovvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvve to catch you in our net! lol

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

lol images of a very rude chitty chitty bang bang runnin through mind now! x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So, unlike us Brits who just slavishly obey - Lufthansa, KLM and Air France have been sending test flights up and surprise, surprise - no adverse reactions and they hope to be flying full schedules again if further imminent test flights prove uneventful - source SKY News.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


" im sitting here trying to work out why your response has annoyed me - will work it out and come back! ------ "

Maybe because I have the audacity to have a contrary opinion?

Slavish obedience and acceptance to what I am told by the media has never been a strong point of mine - too much of a questioning mind and in this case - a "bit" of understanding of the issue.

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead


"So, unlike us Brits who just slavishly obey - Lufthansa, KLM and Air France have been sending test flights up and surprise, surprise - no adverse reactions and they hope to be flying full schedules again if further imminent test flights prove uneventful - source SKY News.

"

please............ rather than taking just a snippet take the full article...

they were ASKED to go up by the EU on behalf of the European Airspace Agency

also... it might have been wise to note that the British actually sent up a Small Plane on FRIDAY NIGHT to see what kind of particles are up in the Air at the moment... and are waiting on the results to be clarified......

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

and now across the sky ticker... the british are sending a few further test flights to see what the situation is and the dangers to planes...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


" im sitting here trying to work out why your response has annoyed me - will work it out and come back! ------

Maybe because I have the audacity to have a contrary opinion?

Slavish obedience and acceptance to what I am told by the media has never been a strong point of mine - too much of a questioning mind and in this case - a "bit" of understanding of the issue."

Coo ......ello x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

we look on the brightside least immigration will have dropped......

the media????? shower of c&^%S!!!! there may be food shortages....... had to take mummy dear and aunty food shoppin!! the original panic buyers grrrr!!!! xx

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

[Removed by poster at 18/04/10 15:51:35]

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay


"So, unlike us Brits who just slavishly obey - Lufthansa, KLM and Air France have been sending test flights up and surprise, surprise - no adverse reactions and they hope to be flying full schedules again if further imminent test flights prove uneventful - source SKY News.

"

If you bothered to look into this fully you will see that there have been several test flights in Britain over the last four/five days by military aircraft and civil aircraft authority aircraft.

Nieve to think that we wouldn't have been testing and monitoring the air quality ourselves.....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

right as i see it and maybe im simplyfyin things here....

the airports etc are losin millions

if they could fly safely they would??

but if a plane went up and crashed because of this how much would they be sued for?? now in my eyes if they could safely , they would but if its not safe and risk to life etc they wont ?? xx

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"right as i see it and maybe im simplyfyin things here....

the airports etc are losin millions

if they could fly safely they would??

but if a plane went up and crashed because of this how much would they be sued for?? now in my eyes if they could safely , they would but if its not safe and risk to life etc they wont ?? xx"

You may well soon find that the risk is not quite what it has been made out to be as the cost/risk equation gets stretched with each passing hour.

There are opinions already that a few airlines will bite the dust ( oo-er) in the coming days even if this event stops today.

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

The question is....would you let your children fly today from a British airport? If so and you had told them it was ok, how would you feel if the plane crashed?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

there is no flamin chance!!

unless they send david cameron up first to check the planes are ok !! not that i dont trust politicians but il take the word of experts before il take the word of someone without a clue!

there must be somethin in it or we wouldnt have this havoc its no as if the airlines are doin it to be spiteful or annoy people!

or are the experts in these fields there must be some risk or it would be back to normal! x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"If you bothered to look into this fully you will see that there have been several test flights in Britain over the last four/five days by military aircraft and civil aircraft authority aircraft.

Nieve to think that we wouldn't have been testing and monitoring the air quality ourselves....."

Not naive at all - I saw the BBC link with the immortal line:

"There's lots of muck up there."

KLM and Lufthansa are utilising service airliners not Dornier research aircraft and whether they were asked to do it by Eurocontrol or whether they were simply not prepared to accept the hype they have done more and quicker than any British airline has so far.

Watch this space - the density of volcanic ash in the atmosphere can be measured and airliners can and will fly in and through low density layers of ash and/or sulphur dioxide because that stuff in low densities is always in the atmosphere anyway.

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead


"right as i see it and maybe im simplyfyin things here....

the airports etc are losin millions

if they could fly safely they would??

but if a plane went up and crashed because of this how much would they be sued for?? now in my eyes if they could safely , they would but if its not safe and risk to life etc they wont ?? xx

You may well soon find that the risk is not quite what it has been made out to be as the cost/risk equation gets stretched with each passing hour.

There are opinions already that a few airlines will bite the dust ( oo-er) in the coming days even if this event stops today."

obviously not seen the pictures from the Finnish Air force today.... google what happened to there F18 when it went thru the cloud on thursday.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/04/16/340727/pictures-finnish-f-18-engine-check-reveals-effects-of-volcanic.html

and when the head of ryanair says there isn't much you can do because one patch may not be as dense as another.. and there is no way of actually telling!!

he's not calling on heads to roll... he is stating better to be safe than sorry.....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"there is no flamin chance!!

unless they send david cameron up first to check the planes are ok !! not that i dont trust politicians but il take the word of experts before il take the word of someone without a clue!

there must be somethin in it or we wouldnt have this havoc its no as if the airlines are doin it to be spiteful or annoy people!

or are the experts in these fields there must be some risk or it would be back to normal! x"

You are all forgetting that anything can be inflicted upon us now in the name of "safety." Swine Flu was the most recent worldwide panic and this is another. If the direct plume passed over this country and the ash was visible and concentrated then the danger would be very real indeed.

I accept that I am in no way a qualified expert but I have sufficient background knowledge to offer a pretty good suggestion that in quite short order things will come back to normal with the caveat that the densities of ash are regularly measured.

If this continues for very much longer, some of the biggest airlines in the world willgo bankrupt and the European economies will suffer enormously. That just won't happen but the return to normality will come with "spin."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

yeah the swine flu one was a big let down!

in a capitalist society, as we are if there was any way of gettin things up and runnin they would because its all money and profit!

there somethin obviously not right when its at a standstill and the disruption etc x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"and when the head of ryanair says there isn't much you can do because one patch may not be as dense as another.. and there is no way of actually telling!!

he's not calling on heads to roll... he is stating better to be safe than sorry....."

That is not quite correct. Density can be measured and this is probably how this "crisis" will end.

BTW - The density over Finland was/is significantly greater than that over the UK and Continental Europe and the jet engines in military attack aircraft are different to those used in airliners. Kind of like comparing a Ferrari with a Land Rover Discovery.

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay


"That is not quite correct. Density can be measured and this is probably how this "crisis" will end.

BTW - The density over Finland was/is significantly greater than that over the UK and Continental Europe and the jet engines in military attack aircraft are different to those used in airliners. Kind of like comparing a Ferrari with a Land Rover Discovery."

But the question to you still stands.....would you be happy for your children to take off from a British airport this evening in a passenger jet?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"But the question to you still stands.....would you be happy for your children to take off from a British airport this evening in a passenger jet?

"

Yes - and I am sure you will see normal service for everyone pretty soon anyway.

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay


"But the question to you still stands.....would you be happy for your children to take off from a British airport this evening in a passenger jet?

Yes - and I am sure you will see normal service for everyone pretty soon anyway.

"

Until the next eruption and then of course depending on the wind....

Fortunately we have sensible people working at NATS and their European counterparts....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


" Fortunately we have sensible people working at NATS and their European counterparts...."

Air travel across much of Europe was paralyzed for a fourth day on Sunday by a huge cloud of volcanic ash, but Dutch and German test flights carried out without apparent damage seem to offer some hope of respite says Reuters.

Dutch airline KLM said overnight inspection of an airliner after a test flight showed no damage to engines or other parts from ash in the atmosphere. Lufthansa also reported problem-free test flights, while Italian and French carriers announced they would be flying empty airliners on Sunday to assess conditions.

KLM, acting on a Eurocontrol request, flew a Boeing 737-800 without passengers at the regular altitude of 10 km (6 miles) and up to the 13 km maximum on Saturday. Germany's Lufthansa said it flew 10 empty planes to Frankfurt from Munich at altitudes of up to 8 km.

"We have not found anything unusual and no irregularities, which indicates the atmosphere is clean and safe to fly," said a spokeswoman for KLM, which is part of Air France-KLM. German airline Air Berlin said it had also carried out test flights and expressed irritation at the shutdown of European air space.

"We are amazed that the results of the test flights done by Lufthansa and Air Berlin have not had any bearing on the decision-making of the air safety authorities," Chief Executive Joachim Hunold said. "The closure of the air space happened purely because of the data of a computer simulation at the Vulcanic Ash Advisory Center in London," he told the mass circulation Bild am Sonntag paper.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 18/04/10 18:19:08]

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

Then why haven't we seen the Germans sending up their passenger planes this weekend?.......

If it's safe and all that....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Then why haven't we seen the Germans sending up their passenger planes this weekend?.......

If it's safe and all that...."

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/04/18/340746/german-carriers-lead-backlash-over-volcanic-ash-closures.html

Link contains this text:

German carriers Lufthansa and Air Berlin have expressed scepticism over the volcanic ash risk, and the need to keep airspace closed, after neither detected any technical problems during a series of positioning flights.

Lufthansa has repositioned 10 Boeing 747-400 and Airbus A340 aircraft from Munich to Frankfurt, in preparation for eventual clearance to operate. The aircraft mainly performed under visual flight rules, limiting their altitude to 3,000m (9,800ft), although one of the jets was taken to 8,000m to assess the atmospheric conditions.

A spokesman for the airline says that none of the aircraft showed any sign of volcanic ash damage.

These results are generating a steadily-growing backlash against regulatory authorities and increasing doubts about the scientific basis for keeping European airspace closed.

The Lufthansa spokesman argues that decisions appear to be founded on volcanic monitoring forecasts rather than actual atmospheric testing.

"Everyone's basing decisions on estimates from computer simulations," he says. "We need additional tests and analysis, test flights need to be done. But this is not being done quickly enough."

Air Berlin yesterday carried out positioning flights of three Airbus aircraft on the Munich-Dusseldorf and Nuremberg-Hamburg sectors.

The airline says that technical inspections "did not reveal any adverse effects" on the jets, and is similarly questioning the rationale behind the airspace restrictions.

"We are amazed that the results obtained from test flights carried out by Lufthansa and Air Berlin...did not have any influence whatsoever on the decisions taken by the aviation safety authorities," says Air Berlin chief Joachim Hunold.

The carrier is offering to conduct formal test flights to examine the risk and is pressing the German transport ministry to establish a crisis-management operation.

Pilots from the Netherlands are calling on governments to allow partial restoration of services. Dutch pilots' union VNV believes the concentration of volcanic particles is "so small that it presents no danger".

Dutch carrier KLM is planning to operate another series of flights today following an initial airborne test on 17 April.

KLM has secured permission for another nine flights. The first has been conducted out of Dusseldorf, at 06:30 today, with 20 crew members on board but no passengers.

Seven aircraft are stranded in Dusseldorf and KLM aims to reposition these back to its Amsterdam Schiphol base.

Its initial test flight, with a Boeing 737-800, aircraft indicated no operational problems and KLM says the "quality of the atmosphere is in order". KLM insists, however, that safety "remains the chief priority".

Chief executive Peter Hartman stresses that the decision on resuming normal air operations lies with the Dutch and European authorities, but that it hopes to restore services as soon as possible if restrictions are lifted.

Air France is carrying out its own test flight today, using an Airbus A320, and similar flights are reportedly to be undertaken in the UK.

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

Worth noting the airlines flying from North America to Germany, France, Italy, Holland, Spain....etc. haven't flown this weekend either, I am guessing that they know what they are doing.....

There is no EU directive on no flying, it is down to each national avaition authority, are they all wrong?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

BBC - Robert Peston

" They are beginning to question whether the Met Office's computer model of the ash cloud is exaggerating its size. "

Robert Peston, BBC Business Editor, on airline executives' concerns

This is the same Met Office whose computer programmes predicted a BBQ summer last year and a mild winter this year. Wait until we all get to see these "predictions" against what you can actually see with your own eyes.

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

Am guessing you are also the sort of person who would be the first to moan if a couple of planes crashed and killed a few hundred people?......

Some things are just not worth risking for the sake of money

I would prefer to see people alive myself

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Am guessing you are also the sort of person who would be the first to moan if a couple of planes crashed and killed a few hundred people?......

"

Silly thing to say.

I am old enough to remember an eruption in the 1970's where ash literally fell from the sky in the UK.

There was no such over-reaction then.

Aircraft engines fail in high density zones like a direct plume and we can all see that we are not in a plume but a dispersal zone.

This really is all madness.

Lets see how it pans out in the nextcouple of days - certainly our European cousins are starting to discredit the Met Office model on which the NATS advice (and subsequent Eurocontrol advice) has been based.

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By *adchickCouple
over a year ago

Cyprus

One aircraft, carrying over 300 people, is one aircraft too many.

As a scared witless passenger, I won't be flying until the dam thing has stopped erupting and the ash cloud has gone!

People and safety first is what I say. If anyone wants to put their lives on the line by flying this weekend, we should let them.

If they die, it's their own bloody fault!

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay


"

I am old enough to remember an eruption in the 1970's where ash literally fell from the sky in the UK.

There was no such over-reaction then.

Aircraft engines fail in high density zones like a direct plume and we can all see that we are not in a plume but a dispersal zone.

This really is all madness.

Lets see how it pans out in the nextcouple of days - certainly our European cousins are starting to discredit the Met Office model on which the NATS advice (and subsequent Eurocontrol advice) has been based.

"

All I can say is thank god we are listening to professionals and not a bloke from Bolton, at the end of the day as Madchick says they cannot chance it as lives are at stake.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

This guy realy has no idea! "

Why don't you just try looking past the headlines?

Why don't you enlighten us with information about the density of volcanic ash in the air above the UK and Europe? You can't because that information is not factually available it is only available in theory.

The UK Met Office is the most widely discredited publicly funded entity in the Western World and it has not yet even bothered to launch a single weather balloon to test the theory of their model against the actual conditions in the atmosphere. ALL of the NATS and Eurocontrol advice is coming from Met Office computer models.

If I am wrong about everything else then please humour me by accepting that this must be wrong by any reasonable measure?

I wonder when the air quality is finally assessed and we all get to see that the density is too low to cause aircraft to fall out of the sky or to cause lasting damage where will the law suits for the lost billions be aimed at - The UK Met Office - and by default - who will then end up paying those lawsuits? Have a guess.

Just a thought.................

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


" All I can say is thank god we are listening to professionals and not a bloke from Bolton, at the end of the day as Madchick says they cannot chance it as lives are at stake.

"

Let's come back to this in a couple of days and see how your definition of "professional" bears out.

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay


"

Let's come back to this in a couple of days and see how your definition of "professional" bears out."

No doubt the government will be singing the praises of 'the bloke from Bolton' on the news.....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

No doubt the government will be singing the praises of 'the bloke from Bolton' on the news..... "

Doubt it somehow. I am just a sceptic -nothing more, nothing less. But I do have a bit of background knowledge about this. It just amazes me that no-one is really looking behind the sensationalism.

Just think about it logically - A large number of major airlines are at real risk of going under and there is a public perception that aircraft cannot fly with even the smallest amounts of volcanic ash in the atmosphere. Knowing that this volcano could be erupting for years to come and we do experience northerly winds in this country - the possibility of flight schedules stop starting for the next god knows how many years is inconceivable. People will just not bother booking aircraft seats in case their flight gets cancelled. This will devastate the European airline industry and it simply will not be allowed to happen.

I am just suggesting you look behind the headlines right now, this minute, and you can already see the questions being asked and the science being questioned. The airlines themselves don't want ruined engines and expensive lawsuits against them for negligence but if they are now asking the question about why they can't fly then something must be wrong with the science? Is that not obvious?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

newton, gallioe, everyone mocked them....

i know nothin about volcanic ash i dont intend to learn and i imagine these people have researched everythin possible about this and the impact on engines etc etc at the end of the day we are human we only know so much and if and its a big IF a plane goes up and midflight across a sea it plummets due to whatever the ash does who gets the blame?? is it corprate manslaughter for the aircraft maker or the company or whoever said it was ok??

of course companies are goin to chance things profit rules but maybe the governments are playin it safe for a good reason? i really cant see them causing a major disruption just for fun to be honest xx

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By *oe_Steve_NWestCouple
over a year ago

Bolton

Can I ask one simple question? Why would all the planes be grounded without good reason? Can the guy telling us it's all rubbish explain that to me please cos I can't see why myself at all! Z

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

Well now we know the real reason for the passenger planes not flying, it's not the UK or European governments....it's not an EU directive...

It's the fact that the two biggest aircraft manufacturers Boeing and Airbus led the way by stating that Insurance claims against any of their aircraft in the event of an accident due to volcanic dust would be null and void.

Other manufacturers quickly followed hence no planes flying at present.

So the German and Dutch airlines can bitch as much as they want, no insurance cover means nothing flies in the world of commercial flight.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Next they’ll be telling us they can’t fly when its raining

Must be all that global warming that’s to blame

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Can I ask one simple question? Why would all the planes be grounded without good reason? Can the guy telling us it's all rubbish explain that to me please cos I can't see why myself at all! Z"

It's said that the volcanic ash can cause serious problems to the engine if it finds it's way in there.

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

Just heard that a Nato F-16 Jet fighter that was used to test the amount of volcanic ash over Scotland showed a build up of Silica Glass in an engine.

This was according to an aviation official from the United States.

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By *oe_Steve_NWestCouple
over a year ago

Bolton


"Can I ask one simple question? Why would all the planes be grounded without good reason? Can the guy telling us it's all rubbish explain that to me please cos I can't see why myself at all! Z

It's said that the volcanic ash can cause serious problems to the engine if it finds it's way in there.

"

Yes - that bit I do understand! Seems to be some people that think that the planes are being grounded for no good reason and that's what's intriguing me! Z

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

call from my mum in canada to say that the ash cloud has made it's way there now...planes flew from newfoundland showed damage from the ash...she was due to fly out from montreal tonight to come visit for 4 weeks but now is just waiting to see when she will be able to come...and if her trip can be extended or not from the original dates...hard to explain to the winks why grandma is not arriving tomorrow now and do not know when she will be coming they have been so excited, have not seen her for a year...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Can I ask one simple question? Why would all the planes be grounded without good reason? Can the guy telling us it's all rubbish explain that to me please cos I can't see why myself at all! Z

It's said that the volcanic ash can cause serious problems to the engine if it finds it's way in there.

Yes - that bit I do understand! Seems to be some people that think that the planes are being grounded for no good reason and that's what's intriguing me! Z"

Not at all, its just non urgent flights that have been grounded, just a little confusing being created beacuse if its as bad as they are speculating it should be ALL flights.

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

It's all passenger flights that have been cancelled due to Insurance requirements.

Incidentally we live on the approach flight to Dartmoor ranges and regularly have Fighter Jets flying over in good weather conditions.....haven't seen a single one for days.

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By *zMaleMan
over a year ago

penzance

Mr Bolton Is talking out of his backside. For a person that claims to have a background in this field, he is amazingly niave. Does he think that the other EU countries rely on our "flawed" Met office Radar????

I'm sure that if there was not a genuine reason for grounding all these flights, then the Governments would be putting pressure on NATS and their EU counterparts to open the airspaces. Does he not realise that not only passenger safety but national and international economies are being severly effected, as well as the airlines themselves.

He mentions an eruption in the 70's and everyone continued to operate but no mention of the 747 in the 80's that flew through a cloud and lost all 4 engines !!!!!!!!!! HMMMMMMMM so ash has no effect HUH

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay


"Mr Bolton Is talking out of his backside. For a person that claims to have a background in this field, he is amazingly niave. Does he think that the other EU countries rely on our "flawed" Met office Radar????

I'm sure that if there was not a genuine reason for grounding all these flights, then the Governments would be putting pressure on NATS and their EU counterparts to open the airspaces. Does he not realise that not only passenger safety but national and international economies are being severly effected, as well as the airlines themselves.

He mentions an eruption in the 70's and everyone continued to operate but no mention of the 747 in the 80's that flew through a cloud and lost all 4 engines !!!!!!!!!! HMMMMMMMM so ash has no effect HUH "

Absolutely PZ..... North American airlines work on the NASA Boeing GOES-P system and not the Met Office system, saw it on the news last night.

Most European nations take their data from Eumetsat and not the Met office.

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By *riapus4uMan
over a year ago

Charlestown, Cornwall

I agree, Mr Bolton is talking sensatioalism. The two main ENGINE manufacturers, Rolls-Royce & Pratt & Whitney spend an absolute fortune on testing engines to destruction for reliability checking. I am a Rolls-Royce trained engineer & have had many years on engine test bed work & I know what we used to throw at the engines, from Swans to silica laden grit & everything inbetween!.

Believe me, if they could get the planes in the air without damaging them, the airlines would.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"call from my mum in canada to say that the ash cloud has made it's way there now...planes flew from newfoundland showed damage from the ash...she was due to fly out from montreal tonight to come visit for 4 weeks but now is just waiting to see when she will be able to come...and if her trip can be extended or not from the original dates...hard to explain to the winks why grandma is not arriving tomorrow now and do not know when she will be coming they have been so excited, have not seen her for a year... "

aww thats so sad!!

its stories like that one that show just how much disruption is happenin but how it cannot be helped xx

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

When the Concorde went down at Paris it cost insurers an estimated 400 million Euros, so it is understandable why Boeing and Airbus have led the line on refusing Insurance liability as a result of volcanic ash engine damage.

I never realised just how many passenger planes can be found in the skies of Europe on any given day at Twelve noon....losing half a dozen at once full of passengers would prove disasterous for insurers.

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By *zMaleMan
over a year ago

penzance


"When the Concorde went down at Paris it cost insurers an estimated 400 million Euros, so it is understandable why Boeing and Airbus have led the line on refusing Insurance liability as a result of volcanic ash engine damage.

I never realised just how many passenger planes can be found in the skies of Europe on any given day at Twelve noon....losing half a dozen at once full of passengers would prove disasterous for insurers."

You just have to look at the amount of contrails over Landsend at lunchtime to see how many aircraft fly in our airspace. It looks like the pics you see of the battle of Britain at times. Staggering

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I don't know the first thing about volcanic ash, and I'm not of a mind to find out.

What I do know is no government would close its airspace for a nano second if they didn't need to.

My sister in Italy has told me that their airports are closed now, a major bummer as my playmate has been holidaying in Malta with his daughers, their partners and his mother. Their flights today have been cancelled and yesterday he was thinking of flying to Rome and try making his way home from there - not going to be now... .

I too am a little surprised that people think the airlines are being over cautious and should fly.

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By *oe_Steve_NWestCouple
over a year ago

Bolton

Thank God for common sense - I thought it was just me missing something - I suppose with cut and paste you can pretend that you know or understand more than you actualy do! Seriously didn't think that all these flights would be canceled on a whim! Z

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Just popped back here and noted the considerable abuse directed my way.

Where to begin countering the many misinformed posts?

1) The ICAO recommendations on which this situation has arisen came about because two airliners flew through the actively discharging plume of a volcano. All engines stopped and there was considerable damage to engines and airframes. An active plume is one where day turns into night the volcanic ash is so dense. In the current situation we are talking about residue from a plume. Look out of the window - day is still day.

2) The Volcanic Ash Advisory Centre for Europe is based at the UK Met Office. It is their computer models which are being questioned by IATA and now almost every airline in Europe. The argument is that a blanket ban is uncalled for, unprecedented and unnecessary without an accurate correlation between observed ash density and the jet engine manufacturers published acceptable tolerences.

3) Does anyone really think that they would close down airspace for no reason - of course not. But placing all of your belief in a computer model which illustrates a danger that test flights have already proven to be non existant is very flawed indeed. Why is the Dornier test aircraft not flying 24 hours sampling the atmosphere instead of spouting off to ther BBC that:

"There is lots of muck up there."

Solid factual evidence of the density of the ash is required, not a slavish acceptance that a computer model must be correct.

4) Fighter aircraft engines have been affected by the ash because they operate to much finer tolerences than engines in a passenger jet. It is like comparing the engine in a Ferrari to that in a Discovery. It may well be that the low levels of volcanic ash will reduce the life of the engines from 6,000 hours to 5,000, or 4,000 or even half their life but this cost is still far less than the cost of being sat on the ground. I have no idea what the optimum life of an F-18 engine is but it is nothing like the expected life of an Airbus engine by many, many factors and this is all about tolerences.

5) Whilst I have not checked the news this evening, I understood that the ash cloud was due to be in US airspace by this evening - I would be very surprised if the FAA will blanket ground aircraft in the way that European Agencies have done and there will be no plummeting, no pilots wrestling with the contros, no children in danger and in fact just lots and lots of passenger aircraft going about their daily business. Just as it should be in Europe.

In summary, the way that this whole event has been handled is a total embarrassment to Europe generally and in particular to the European Departments of Transports (they have had their first discussion about it today!!), The UK NATS, Eurocontrol and the Volcanic Ash Advisory Centre (Met Office). They should hang their heads in shame.

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

You have missed your true vocation in life....the governments of Europe and the United States must be queuing up for your services.

Lets hope they contact you next time a volcano lets rip......

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Talking through my arese?

Everything I said yesterday now todays news:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8629127.stm

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By *zMaleMan
over a year ago

penzance


"Just popped back here and noted the considerable abuse directed my way.

Where to begin countering the many misinformed posts?

1) The ICAO recommendations on which this situation has arisen came about because two airliners flew through the actively discharging plume of a volcano. All engines stopped and there was considerable damage to engines and airframes. An active plume is one where day turns into night the volcanic ash is so dense. In the current situation we are talking about residue from a plume. Look out of the window - day is still day.

2) The Volcanic Ash Advisory Centre for Europe is based at the UK Met Office. It is their computer models which are being questioned by IATA and now almost every airline in Europe. The argument is that a blanket ban is uncalled for, unprecedented and unnecessary without an accurate correlation between observed ash density and the jet engine manufacturers published acceptable tolerences.

3) Does anyone really think that they would close down airspace for no reason - of course not. But placing all of your belief in a computer model which illustrates a danger that test flights have already proven to be non existant is very flawed indeed. Why is the Dornier test aircraft not flying 24 hours sampling the atmosphere instead of spouting off to ther BBC that:

"There is lots of muck up there."

Solid factual evidence of the density of the ash is required, not a slavish acceptance that a computer model must be correct.

4) Fighter aircraft engines have been affected by the ash because they operate to much finer tolerences than engines in a passenger jet. It is like comparing the engine in a Ferrari to that in a Discovery. It may well be that the low levels of volcanic ash will reduce the life of the engines from 6,000 hours to 5,000, or 4,000 or even half their life but this cost is still far less than the cost of being sat on the ground. I have no idea what the optimum life of an F-18 engine is but it is nothing like the expected life of an Airbus engine by many, many factors and this is all about tolerences.

5) Whilst I have not checked the news this evening, I understood that the ash cloud was due to be in US airspace by this evening - I would be very surprised if the FAA will blanket ground aircraft in the way that European Agencies have done and there will be no plummeting, no pilots wrestling with the contros, no children in danger and in fact just lots and lots of passenger aircraft going about their daily business. Just as it should be in Europe.

In summary, the way that this whole event has been handled is a total embarrassment to Europe generally and in particular to the European Departments of Transports (they have had their first discussion about it today!!), The UK NATS, Eurocontrol and the Volcanic Ash Advisory Centre (Met Office). They should hang their heads in shame. "

All I can say is thank God you're not in a position of power that would enable you to put so many lives in danger.

I can't believe you're so arrogant as not to be able to see the feelings running, even if it is only on here and you're still trying to say it's a farce!!!!!!!!!!!! And that you're still wanting to put ppl's lives at risk

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"You have missed your true vocation in life....the governments of Europe and the United States must be queuing up for your services.

Lets hope they contact you next time a volcano lets rip......

"

At no stage anywhere in this thread have I personally attacked or insulted another poster in the three days that I have added to it.

I have posted what I believe to be correct information and it seems now that the BBC is reporting this same and similar information as "news."

Lesson to be learned for all - as if we did not know - don't believe everything that you are told on the news and remember that the bigger the bullshit, the more believable it is.

Message to those who deemed it appropriate to be belittling or abusive to my posts - I don't hold grudges but it would be nice to have a debate without being insulted and hope that you can get your information from a little deeper than the front page in future.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

All I can say is thank God you're not in a position of power that would enable you to put so many lives in danger.

I can't believe you're so arrogant as not to be able to see the feelings running, even if it is only on here and you're still trying to say it's a farce!!!!!!!!!!!! And that you're still wanting to put ppl's lives at risk"

Why don't you look a little deeper into the story? It is easy to research now that more facts are coming to life.

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

What the BBC and SKY are saying is that as the volcanic ash cloud is appearing to thin considerably over the UK, France and Scandanavia then a certain amount of flights will be allowed to fly tommorrow, what they are not saying is that the whole thing was a farce.

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

Please get your views across without attacking the person you are disagreeing with.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"What the BBC and SKY are saying is that as the volcanic ash cloud is appearing to thin considerably over the UK, France and Scandanavia then a certain amount of flights will be allowed to fly tommorrow, what they are not saying is that the whole thing was a farce.

"

Did you read the article by the Chairman of IATA and the coments from Bristish Airways, Lufthansa and KLM? That is the BBC link that I posted.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

information is power.....

i still dont think the government and official bodies are doin this to wind us up to be honest but hey if they look for crash test dummies we got a few who could volunteer cause it sure as shit wont be my sorry ass goin up there to check not even for first class with enrique inglasias to take me to the mile high club would i!!

these people know more than me and il take their word for it! xx

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By *riapus4uMan
over a year ago

Charlestown, Cornwall


"information is power.....

i still dont think the government and official bodies are doin this to wind us up to be honest but hey if they look for crash test dummies we got a few who could volunteer cause it sure as shit wont be my sorry ass goin up there to check not even for first class with enrique inglasias to take me to the mile high club would i!!

these people know more than me and il take their word for it! xx"

No they ar'nt doing this to wind us up but the guy from Bolton is!!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"No they ar'nt doing this to wind us up but the guy from Bolton is!!! "

Read on: Remember this is what I was saying TWO days ago.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/7608722/Volcanic-ash-cloud-Met-Office-blamed-for-unnecessary-six-day-closure.html

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/04/19/340760/ash-cloud-live-iata-furious-at-theoretical-basis-for-airspace-closures.html

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By *oe_Steve_NWestCouple
over a year ago

Bolton


"No they ar'nt doing this to wind us up but the guy from Bolton is!!!

Read on: Remember this is what I was saying TWO days ago.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/7608722/Volcanic-ash-cloud-Met-Office-blamed-for-unnecessary-six-day-closure.html

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/04/19/340760/ash-cloud-live-iata-furious-at-theoretical-basis-for-airspace-closures.html

"

lol - you were saying what? all i've seen is a lot of copy and paste stuff! Z

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

so the telegraph blame the met office... when it is NATS making the decisions.............

the telegraph haven't a clue

and actually... it is the European Air Agency, Eurocontrol, that are now making the final decisions....

the airlines say they are fine... but the military aircraft that have gone up have suffered some damage.....

and now... there is another huge black ash cloud coming this way.... looks like the window may close very short...

certain airlines want to fly.... certain airlines don't... and its not often I tend to agree with the head of ryanair when he says "if there is any risk... don't fly"

anyway there is an old airline pilots adage...

"better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air...... than to be in the air wishing you were on the ground!!!"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I suppose the reason that there is so much panic about this is that some people have a natural fear of flying anyway and this seems like a nightmare scenario - a killer in the sky that you can't even see.

To correct an earlier post of mine where I was very critical of the UK reaction it now seems that some European countries have gone even further and even banned light aircraft from flying which is taking things from the sublime to the ridiculous. If you are going to ban light aircraft then what is the effect on our cars? How many cars do you see stranded at the roadside with engines damaged by volcanic ash?

I still maintain that the "Precautionary Principle" is the scourge of our modern life and the scares always follow the same pattern:

An unusual set of circumstances

Worst case scenario made by "experts"

Worst case scenario promoted by media

Voice of reasoning drowned out

Computer models, expert witnesses and celebrities add weight to argument

Governments wildly over-react on the basis of "public safety"

Wide spread scaring of public

Gradual easing of situation

Panic subsides

So much widespread relief that the worst case scenario did not happen that no-one goes back to question how the sitiation came about in the first place or tries to make those responsible accountable for the £Billions wasted on the scare:

DDT

Salmonella - The Edwina Currie affair!!

Millenium Bug

CJD/BSE

Bird Flu

Swine Flu

Global warming

The Ash Cloud

Remember folks there are 20 volcano's erupting somewhere in the world at any given moment in time and the procedure is to fly around the active plume of the discharging vent. There is no precedent to avoid the dispersed residue from a plume by blanket grounding an entire continent. The airlines just reasonably want to know scientifically what the concentration of ash is within this residue and all they are being told is that the Volcanic Ash Advisory Service (Met Office) model says it is dangerous and to question this is tantamount to being a heretic because they are the "experts."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm thinking we should ban flying altogether, let's all start swimming more.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I'm thinking we should ban flying altogether, let's all start swimming more. "

Take your tongue out of your cheek and be serious!!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

my understanding is that due to the unusual nature of the eruption there is a lot of silica particles in this dust. When the dust is sucked into the jet engines the silica melts and forms a fine layer of glass in the engine which can cause the them to shut down.

Over reaction or not.....quite frankly I would rather these planes were grounded and that everyone was safe until more data and information can be retrieved and studied

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo


"my understanding is that due to the unusual nature of the eruption there is a lot of silica particles in this dust. When the dust is sucked into the jet engines the silica melts and forms a fine layer of glass in the engine which can cause the them to shut down.

Over reaction or not.....quite frankly I would rather these planes were grounded and that everyone was safe until more data and information can be retrieved and studied"

*nods*

Can you imagine the outcry if they let everyone fly without making sure it was safe to do so and people were killed because of failed engines.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

Over reaction or not.....quite frankly I would rather these planes were grounded and that everyone was safe until more data and information can be retrieved and studied

*nods*

Can you imagine the outcry if they let everyone fly without making sure it was safe to do so and people were killed because of failed engines.

"

Banging my head against a brick wall.

The problem is that data is not being scientifically retrieved and studied hence the airlines taking matters into their own hands and making test flights and studying the after effects. This is the whole point of the matter.

Airlines, pilots and engineers all know that there are always traces of volcanic ash (and other debris) in the atmosphere because there are so many volcanos erupting at any one time somewhere in the world. There are almost always volcano's erupting somewhere in Canada and North America but the entire continent does not get grounded. The aircraft fly around the "active plume" which is very dangerous and you would know about it if you were in it.

Fact is nowhere else in the world has an entire continent been grounded not because of a plume - but because of dispersed residue that has theoretically been assessed by the Volcanic Ash Advisory Centre for Europe (The Met Office in London) by means of a computer program and not physical observation. Every day that you fly in an aeroplane the engines are being degraded by volcanic ash, sand and other debris - it happens anyway but the argument here is that the big black cloud of volcanic ash is just quite clearly to the naked eye - not there. There is a residue - yes - but to ground a continent with no measurement of density and concentration and to rely on a theoretical model is madness and a madness that will cost us all much more than a fear of flying.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

As I understand it Frito Magmatic Eruptions are very rare and this is why the problem has arisen with this abrasive ash

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo


"

Over reaction or not.....quite frankly I would rather these planes were grounded and that everyone was safe until more data and information can be retrieved and studied

*nods*

Can you imagine the outcry if they let everyone fly without making sure it was safe to do so and people were killed because of failed engines.

Banging my head against a brick wall.

The problem is that data is not being scientifically retrieved and studied hence the airlines taking matters into their own hands and making test flights and studying the after effects. This is the whole point of the matter.

Airlines, pilots and engineers all know that there are always traces of volcanic ash (and other debris) in the atmosphere because there are so many volcanos erupting at any one time somewhere in the world. There are almost always volcano's erupting somewhere in Canada and North America but the entire continent does not get grounded. The aircraft fly around the "active plume" which is very dangerous and you would know about it if you were in it.

Fact is nowhere else in the world has an entire continent been grounded not because of a plume - but because of dispersed residue that has theoretically been assessed by the Volcanic Ash Advisory Centre for Europe (The Met Office in London) by means of a computer program and not physical observation. Every day that you fly in an aeroplane the engines are being degraded by volcanic ash, sand and other debris - it happens anyway but the argument here is that the big black cloud of volcanic ash is just quite clearly to the naked eye - not there. There is a residue - yes - but to ground a continent with no measurement of density and concentration and to rely on a theoretical model is madness and a madness that will cost us all much more than a fear of flying.

"

Bang away.

If we were flying this week I would have cancelled it myself, not for the fear of flying but from the advice of the ex flight engineer who I sleep with every night.

PS if you don't want people to be rude to you, you really shouldn't be rude to them.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


" PS if you don't want people to be rude to you, you really shouldn't be rude to them."

Point me to the offending remark and I will detete it, no problem. Absolutely not my intention to be rude to anyone.

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

You can't delete it.....but I am sure you know which ones.

Let people have their opinions without rubbishing them, that is being rude.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You're all wrong, every last one of you.

The government lied to us, volcano's do NOT exist, they are made up pictures, and anyone suggests they have seen one for real are pulling our leg.

This is in fact Aliens visiting our planet, the government sent up a cloud of smoke to hide them, then passed it off as volcano ash.

Apparently the Aliens tuned into our tv waves and saw the advert for iceland, after a quick google they ended up in the wrong iceland.

I know this to be true because a woman from Rochdale told me.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"information is power.....

i still dont think the government and official bodies are doin this to wind us up to be honest but hey if they look for crash test dummies we got a few who could volunteer cause it sure as shit wont be my sorry ass goin up there to check not even for first class with enrique inglasias to take me to the mile high club would i!!

these people know more than me and il take their word for it! xx

No they ar'nt doing this to wind us up but the guy from Bolton is!!! "

iv solved the mystery!!

its a time waster who wanted to use an original excuse for not meetin someone so he has made this up so he/she can have a great excuse!!

or its someones mother in law in tenerife on holiday and they dont want her back for a few wks!! xx

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

A little update from our Canadian Cousins:

LONDON — An eight-man team of experts at Britain’s Meteorological Office was accused Monday of causing an unnecessary shutdown of aviation with poor-quality computer modelling and "limited" scientific data.

The European Commission accused the unit, a previously obscure part of the Met Office based in Exeter, of starting a chain of events that left the travel plans of more than a million passengers in chaos and the airline industry with potential losses of more than $200 million a day.

The scientists make up the Volcanic Ash Advisory Centre (VAAC) for north-west Europe, an area that includes Iceland and Britain. Its computer model predicting the travel path of ash from the Eyjafyoll volcano was cited by European air traffic control agencies as the trigger for the unprecedented shutdown of aviation over the past few days.

That model is under scrutiny today as the blame game began over whether the shutdown had been an over-reaction to the threat posed by the volcanic ash. Britain’s air traffic control service, the Government, the United Nations and even jet engine manufacturers were all drawn into the row.

The computer model used by the weathermen in Exeter was devised by the Met Office in the aftermath of the explosion at the Chernobyl nuclear plant in the former Soviet Union in 1986. It calculates the direction, speed, height and density of any particles that travel in the air - be they from an industrial accident or a volcano.

It is called the Name Dispersion model, or to give it its full name, the Numerical Atmospheric Modelling Environment, and is used by all 10 VAACs around the world.

However, it is reliant on good quality data and is usually reinforced by information from test flights, which use sophisticated equipment to determine what is happening in the atmosphere.

It emerged Monday that the VAAC had triggered last week’s alert without sending up a single test aircraft to supplement its computer predictions. All the data had been collected from ground radars called Lidars.

Captain Jo Gillespie, a member of the International Advisory Committee on Flight Safety, said data gathering should have begun as soon as the eruption began.

"Military and research aircraft should have been sent straight up to determine the nature of this ash cloud," he said. "The density and the make-up of the cloud is what matters and that information just has not been available."

Matthias Ruete, the European Commission’s director general of transport, said the model was running on mathematical projections rather than what was actually happening.

"The science is based on certain assumptions where we do not have clear scientific evidence. We don’t even know what density the cloud should be in order to affect jet engines," he said.

Britain’s major airlines also questioned the science behind the projections, writing a letter to Lord Adonis, the Transport Secretary, saying that "key decisions" had been taken on the basis of "very limited empirical data". Only four test flights have been conducted since the chaos began last Thursday.

Despite this, Nats, Britain’s national air traffic control service, which is in charge of British airspace, and the Civil Aviation Authority have relied on the VAAC’s model to guide its decisions. They started grounding flights 12 hours after receiving the alert, with Scottish airports the first to shut early last Thursday.

These two bodies cited regulations from the International Civil Aviation Organisation, part of the United Nations, as the basis for their reaction. These regulations bind air traffic controllers around the world and stipulate that it is the duty of controllers to ensure that aircraft are never directed into a hazard. These specifically include a thunderstorm or a volcanic dust cloud. The Met Office said it merely provided the data that mapped the direction, shape and density of the volcanic cloud. It was the airline industry and its regulators who ruled that planes could not fly through it.

The approach taken by the authorities stems from an incident in June 1982 when all four engines of a BA plane shut down when it flew over a volcanic eruption in Java. After this escape - the pilot landed his jet safely in Jakarta - the UN set up VAACs and asked jet engine manufacturers to provide guidance on safe levels of dust for flights. The result was a policy described as "zero tolerance towards volcanoes".

There were suggestions that this approach failed to take into account the improved quality of engines manufactured since 1982 and the nature of volcanoes, which can create varying levels of danger when they erupt.

The Air Transport Association, the airline trade body, criticised the European regulators and suggested that there would have been less chaos under similar circumstances in America. "The decisions would have been made quicker and made on real data, collected from test flights, not just computer models," said a spokesman.

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

You really are the cut and paste king of Fab Swingers......

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

nope still goin with the british version xx

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"You really are the cut and paste king of Fab Swingers......"

Well, if I give my opinion I get accused of talking out of my arse so what to do? Copy and paste todays news which co-incides with my arse ramblings from a few days ago.

Incidentally just noticed that all UK airports to re-open at 10pm but all airlines have to conduct test flights and report any ash damage. Remember - the ash cloud is still here.

Stand by for massive lawsuits now at our (taxpayers) expense.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"nope still goin with the british version xx"

The Ottawa Citizen is a duplicate of a Telegraph story - I will find it if you want?.... nah, I thought not

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By *adchickCouple
over a year ago

Cyprus

I work for the Military.

The only planes we are flying are those bringing back the injured and the dead. We send those planes back with bloods, vital medical equipment and nothing else. We can't supply equipment, vehicles or new personnel. It breaks our hearts because we know they need these things desperately.

Do you really think that if it was actually safe to fly, we would turn round and say..... ya know what, lets not bother??

We've got service men and women out in Afghanistan who've been there since before Christmas, who haven't seen their loved ones and their children since October and before. They are waiting to come home as well as the 1000's of stranded civilians in airports all over the world.

We've got injured service personel being flown home under the normal height threshold who must be having a bloody awful time of flying nearly 19 hours in turbulence.

Have you heard one soldier moan that he can't get home? NO

Have you heard one injured personnel moan that his flight was bumpy? NO

Have you heard one soldier moaning that he is sleeping on the floor? NO

I am sick to death of people whinging about not flying. I am sick to death of listening to people on the news moaning about having to sleep on the floor of an airport for a couple of days. I am sick to death of people moaning that they don't know when they will be getting home.

Feel sorry for the boys in Afghanistan and everywhere else in the world that can't get home after months on tour because of this........

But I bet you don't hear them moaning. They know full well that we'd get them home IF we could do it safely.

I personally don't give a shit if someone can post rambling rubbish from websites and newspapers (funnily enough, Canada closed some of it's airspace yesterday) but has no emotional concept of what and who really suffers when something like this happens.

I would happily get on a flight to our personnel in the war zone if it meant they could have what they needed. And I would happily take them vital medical equipment personally if it was required.

But then I have't lost sight of what IS important in this world.

Peoples lives!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"nope still goin with the british version xx

The Ottawa Citizen is a duplicate of a Telegraph story - I will find it if you want?.... nah, I thought not "

yeah find it feel free! if cuttin and pastin is your idea of a fun filled nite,you fire away as long as you happy!!

maddies point sums it up completely!

as does the navy ship bringin personnel and people home so you stick to sifting through the dross that counts as media but my mind is made up!! oh and try wikipedia too its a great source of conspiracy theories too!! xx

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Anyone watching sky news ?

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By *adchickCouple
over a year ago

Cyprus


"Anyone watching sky news ? "

Yes...

But I won't be cutting and pasting from it.

I'm thinking of all the boys that can't get home from tour because of this!

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By *oe_Steve_NWestCouple
over a year ago

Bolton


"Anyone watching sky news ? "

why? you gonna try to cut and paste that as well? sorry! couldn't resist! Z

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

The good news is that our very close friends serving in 3 Rifles are back safe in Camp Bastion tonight and expecting to start shipping out on Thursday.....home soon boys!

Almost six months in their Forward Operating Base and fully deserving of priority over a sun baked holidaymaker.

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

in the defence of most holiday makers I haven't seem many people grumble.....

actually the hundreds that I have dealt with I have only heard one of two... but that was more about the price of trying to get home as opposed to the actual "no-fly" situation...

people for the most part have been very understanding and pragmatic about it all...

people understood it is there welfare and in that situation I would rather be overcautious that to go up with reckless abandon..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Anyone watching sky news ?

Yes...

But I won't be cutting and pasting from it.

I'm thinking of all the boys that can't get home from tour because of this!"

I was thinking earlier after seeing this thread and all the fuss made how ridiculous a fuss we are making because some people may miss holidays or have to stay there a little longer, when all this time there is a war going on where those people can only hope for a holiday back here at home.

We really are a society to be ashamed of aren't we just.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I work for the Military.........

..........Do you really think that if it was actually safe to fly, we would turn round and say..... ya know what, lets not bother??.............

............Feel sorry for the boys in Afghanistan and everywhere else in the world that can't get home after months on tour because of this........

...........I personally don't give a shit if someone can post rambling rubbish from websites and newspapers (funnily enough, Canada closed some of it's airspace yesterday) but has no emotional concept of what and who really suffers when something like this happens.

I would happily get on a flight to our personnel in the war zone if it meant they could have what they needed. And I would happily take them vital medical equipment personally if it was required.

But then I have't lost sight of what IS important in this world.

Peoples lives!

"

I don't disagree with very much you have said at all and you have evidently taken time to make an emotive and considered reply. The only issue I wouldmake with you is that Canadian airspace was closed, but even the most cursory question why would reveal that it was fog that closed the airspace and not ash.

In any event this is all over now bar the lawsuits and I have to say that I feel really sorry for people like the original poster and anyone who is a nervous flyer anyway. We have been told for days and days that flying in ash is dangerous and now suddenly it isn't.

This crisis appears to have ended because of the very real fear that the government would be sued for £billions unless they changed their blanket risk aversion policy. The rest of Europe stuck two fingers up yesterday at the Met Office model and British Aiways launched 24 flights heading for Heathrow and the goverment caved in and quite rightly we are where we always should have been and EVERY single airline is of the same opinion. Troops should not have been compromised and neither should any passengers. The government in the name of the Dft has proved inept and incapable of dealing quickly with this crisis that has damaged the country. The predicted spin coming from the government is as nauseating as the battle cry to mobilise the Royal Navy to rescue the people who were stranded as a result of the governments inept action.

I guess it is now time to go back to lurking and making the occasional post again now that this is all over. My apologies to those who I have wound up in this thread - but sometimes if you believe really strongly about something it just takes over your life and the handling of this crisis really got my goat.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 21/04/10 08:22:24]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"You really are the cut and paste king of Fab Swingers......

Well, if I give my opinion I get accused of talking out of my arse so what to do? Copy and paste todays news which co-incides with my arse ramblings from a few days ago.

Incidentally just noticed that all UK airports to re-open at 10pm but all airlines have to conduct test flights and report any ash damage. Remember - the ash cloud is still here.

Stand by for massive lawsuits now at our (taxpayers) expense."

.

.

It would appear your earlier prediction has been proved correct.

The CAA have found a way of flying through volcanic clouds that are still there...surprise, surprise!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"and ginger to boot???....not a lot going for him at all then really "

it could be a lot worse he could be scottish

(my hubby is ginger lol)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"and ginger to boot???....not a lot going for him at all then really

it could be a lot worse he could be scottish..........."

lol

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

well hats off for sticking to your original statement mr bolton. i suppose at the end of the day experts have opinions just like the rest of us and who am i to say whats right and whats wrong. but perhaps we shouldnt always believe what we hear and what we read............

ps im flying on friday so if its all goes pear shaped then oopppsssss

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I work for the Military.........

..........Do you really think that if it was actually safe to fly, we would turn round and say..... ya know what, lets not bother??.............

............Feel sorry for the boys in Afghanistan and everywhere else in the world that can't get home after months on tour because of this........

...........I personally don't give a shit if someone can post rambling rubbish from websites and newspapers (funnily enough, Canada closed some of it's airspace yesterday) but has no emotional concept of what and who really suffers when something like this happens.

I would happily get on a flight to our personnel in the war zone if it meant they could have what they needed. And I would happily take them vital medical equipment personally if it was required.

But then I have't lost sight of what IS important in this world.

Peoples lives!

I don't disagree with very much you have said at all and you have evidently taken time to make an emotive and considered reply. The only issue I wouldmake with you is that Canadian airspace was closed, but even the most cursory question why would reveal that it was fog that closed the airspace and not ash.

In any event this is all over now bar the lawsuits and I have to say that I feel really sorry for people like the original poster and anyone who is a nervous flyer anyway. We have been told for days and days that flying in ash is dangerous and now suddenly it isn't.

This crisis appears to have ended because of the very real fear that the government would be sued for £billions unless they changed their blanket risk aversion policy. The rest of Europe stuck two fingers up yesterday at the Met Office model and British Aiways launched 24 flights heading for Heathrow and the goverment caved in and quite rightly we are where we always should have been and EVERY single airline is of the same opinion. Troops should not have been compromised and neither should any passengers. The government in the name of the Dft has proved inept and incapable of dealing quickly with this crisis that has damaged the country. The predicted spin coming from the government is as nauseating as the battle cry to mobilise the Royal Navy to rescue the people who were stranded as a result of the governments inept action.

I guess it is now time to go back to lurking and making the occasional post again now that this is all over. My apologies to those who I have wound up in this thread - but sometimes if you believe really strongly about something it just takes over your life and the handling of this crisis really got my goat.

"

hey i like your posts even if u talk keech at times lol!!

im still wary to be honest, but we will see if anythin happens god forbid to a plane or that and fingers crossed there no more eruptions!! especially in july when im offski lol xx

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"well hats off for sticking to your original statement mr bolton. i suppose at the end of the day experts have opinions just like the rest of us and who am i to say whats right and whats wrong. but perhaps we shouldnt always believe what we hear and what we read............

ps im flying on friday so if its all goes pear shaped then oopppsssss "

Thanks and don't worry - you will be fine.

It is courteous of you to say this and I wonder what the response of those who were more insulting will be, if anything.

This forum is a micro reflection of our society really isn't it? Unfortunately, it does not say much about tolerance especially if you hold a "different" point of view to what is the norm. Then again I do accept that flying is an emotive subject for many so a good scare story can really rattle us.

Did you know that research over 18 months after 9/11 showed that there was a spike of 1,200 more road deaths in the USA because of the unwarrantied fear of flying that the terrorist incident brought about in people. Many people made their own risk assesment to drive instead of fly and as a result 1,200 people lost their lives on the roads of the USA. Kind of makes you think doesn't it.

Anyway, the current crisis is over now seemingly - I wonder what will be scaring us all to death next?

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By *oe_Steve_NWestCouple
over a year ago

Bolton

[Removed by poster at 21/04/10 18:33:44]

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By *oe_Steve_NWestCouple
over a year ago

Bolton

Sorry - posted on wrong thread - Z

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