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Schumacher and brain injuries...

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

Its not like me to be serious on here, but on this occasion I will be.

I have been watching the news on TV this morning, and the general prognosis is that Schumi will 'not be the same' when he is bought out of his medically induced coma. I find this very sad, especially as he is one of my sporting heroes.

I have been speaking to the OH, and both of us agree we would rather the machines be switched of if we were going to be left as a cabbage for the rest of our days.

What would you want?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I guess it depends on what 'not the same' meant. If it meant unaware and high dependancy then yes I see where your coming from but if it meant less able ie can't live his previous lifestyle but still be relatively okay then no, I'd not want to check out just yet.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I wouldn't want someone's life being impaired because of me. I have always made it known to C if I was ever in the situation where I'd be left seriously brain damaged it would be time to say goodbye. I wouldn't want someones life to be affected by my state like that.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Neither of us would want to exist in a vegative state.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

I guess its about seperating the 2 states.

They obviously dont know how bad Schumi will be yet, so you cant make a comparison.

My worst nightmare would be to have a fully functioning brain, but have no control of my body. EG Stephen Hawkins (and before anyone says it, I know his is an illness and not an accident)

In that situation, I would not want to carry on living as I dont believe you can have any quality of life

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Depends how severe it is really.

They said Richard Hammond would never be the same, but he's still the same annoying twat.

It could end up being reasonably mild.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We have both discussed this and if either of us were ever in this tragic situation we wouldn't want to be a burden on our families and wouldn't want to exist with a quality of life that you would know nothing about!

Such a sad story

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I guess its about seperating the 2 states.

They obviously dont know how bad Schumi will be yet, so you cant make a comparison.

My worst nightmare would be to have a fully functioning brain, but have no control of my body. EG Stephen Hawkins (and before anyone says it, I know his is an illness and not an accident)

In that situation, I would not want to carry on living as I dont believe you can have any quality of life

"

There is a good story online of a man with locked in syndrome finding love online. This woman eventually moved to New Zealand to be with him. If you Google Nick Chisholm it all comes up.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

This subject is highly emotive, Ben and thanks for bringing it on to the forum, interesting stuff.

It brings into question the whole euthanasia debate, as your nearest and dearest - if you're in a coma - are going to be making that call. Certainly I can say that I would not want to live on with massive dependency on others. But to make that decision for someone else is massive. L and I have spoken at length on this subject and we thankfully are very where we are with our decision making process. But beyond that, kids, parents, I honestly don't know what they want.

As far as taking your OWN life if things are too tough, then again, we both know where we stand. It would be a trip to Switzerland

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Its not like me to be serious on here, but on this occasion I will be.

I have been watching the news on TV this morning, and the general prognosis is that Schumi will 'not be the same' when he is bought out of his medically induced coma. I find this very sad, especially as he is one of my sporting heroes.

I have been speaking to the OH, and both of us agree we would rather the machines be switched of if we were going to be left as a cabbage for the rest of our days.

What would you want?"

i have a friend who had a serious brain injury nearly 16 years ago now beforehand he had the quickest wit i have ever seen however after the injury he made a real impact on him

you can tell what he is thinking however his reaction times arent what they were and as a result he gets frustrated this in the past has caused

many problems even ended up divorcing his wife however he as learned to cope and is now living a full and active life therefore i would say its all down to the person and his family and friends to give them the support they need and for the person to adapt themselves to the new them.

good luck mr schumacher.

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By *empting Devil.Woman
over a year ago

Sheffield

The difficulty is that 'not the same' varies from occasionally forgetful all the way to cabbage. The brain is still a major mystery.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Some of you know what I do for a living and also know that I'm a huge motorsport fan, so this subject has been something I've followed quite closely since it happened. I said to Ruby when the initial details of his injuries were reported that he will NEVER b the same person he once was and would most likely require some degree of care for the rest of his life. About a week ago I read something posted by Gary Hartstein (The former F1 medic and assistant to the late Sid Watkins)and from what he say's I think Michael will have a hell of a job to regain much of a degree of his former self. I cannot post a link to the article but I will copy and paste it for those interested:

"The Daily Mail has done it again. With today’s headline they’ve “forced” me to take to my blog to help clarify some of what’s being said.

As with everything that I’ve said, tweeted or written since Michael’s accident, I need to make clear that I have not seen Michael, not seen his scans, and not had any contact with the medical team caring for him. I’m going to base the following on what has been said by his care team, on the things that have not been said (by anyone), and on my clinical experience (and that of colleagues) with similarly injured patients.

What is likely happening now? Michael is almost certainly still in the Intensive Care Unit (ICU). I say this primarily because it is rather likely that he still requires this level of care given his injuries, but also because had he been moved from the ICU to a normal room, this would have been sufficiently newsworthy to have almost certainly been announced. If Michael’s breathing is still handled by a respirator, he will almost certainly have had a tracheostomy done. This is more comfortable for the patient, spares the patient from potential damage to the vocal cords, and can make weaning from the respirator easier. It can also be easily closed later, when appropriate.

More importantly is the question of the “artificial coma”. Now those of you who’ve been reading me since the beginning have no doubt noticed that I HATE the term “artificial coma”. It’s confusing and doesn’t transmit any useful information. Initially Michael was no doubt maintained at a VERY deep level of sedation, deep enough to virtually suppress most electric activity in the cerebral cortex (the outer layer of the brain, responsible for higher intellectual functioning). This was done to help manage what were extremely high and dangerous levels of intracranial pressure (ICP, see previous blog entries).

Now that the acute phase of the injury has largely passed, it is almost certain that ICP is no longer problematic. The swelling and bruising are being resorbed. This means that the sedation will certainly have been lightened. Remember that having a tube in the windpipe is a pretty significant and painful stimulus. So sedation is almost always needed to help the patient tolerate the tube, to allow mechanical ventilation, and permit all the other “aggressions” that are part of day-to-day ICU routine. If this is the case, then the care team will be repeatedly, and considerably, lightening the sedation, in order to start weaning Michael from the ventilator, and to allow neurologic evaluation.

This would be good – if the sedation is light, and if respiratory weaning (getting Michael to breathe by himself) is progressing, with a neurological status that allows this, then we can relax for a few weeks, and see how the situation evolves. This situation would mean progress has been made, and renders further prognostication impossible. Progress will continue at an unknown and unknowable speed, and will stop at an unknown and unknowable level of function.

It is also conceivable, at the other end of the “goodness” spectrum, that the sedation has been turned off, that Michael is tolerating the tube, but is neither breathing adequately on his own nor showing significant signs of emerging. You understand that tolerating a tube with no sedation implies rather severe problems with deep levels of the brain, as does the lack of adequate breathing despite stopping the sedatives. At three weeks post injury, this is the worst outcome we could hope for, as it would indicate a rather high probability that normal consciousness will not be regained.

A brief word about the terms “critical” and “stable”. First of all, as used with respect to the condition of hospitalised patients, neither is precisely defined. So it’s important to see them rather more like an impressionistic image than as an accurate statement of physiology. Critical means imminent life threat or threat to a vital system. Stable means that something is not changing, and is usually being maintained within normal limits. So Michael is no longer CRITICAL (the ICP has normalised), and STABLE, as his physiological parameters are now acceptably “constant”.

Ok let’s get down to the hard stuff here. What are the possible outcomes? I’ll look at some of them, mostly with an eye to defining terms we’re likely to see thrown about in the near future, so that we can be precise ourselves, and be critical when faced with imprecise, ambiguous, or misleading information from others (are you listening Daily Mail?).

Now remember, all we know with certainty about Michael’s injuries comes from the press conferences given by his care team. After explaining the how and why of evacuating the right-side extradural hematoma (on the Sunday) and then the left-sided intracerebral hematoma (on the Monday), the neurosurgeon let slip a VERY telling statement.

I’m almost quoting him here, translating from the French. He said “don’t think that we evacuated two hematomas and that’s it”. “Michael has lots of hematomas in his brain, on the left, on the right, and in the middle”.

Damn. See, the “middle” is where all the important stuff happens – awareness, arousal, control of blood pressure, respiration, swallowing etc. And the left – well that’s usually language. Etc etc. The neurosurgeon, intentionally or not, painted a rather catastrophic neurologic picture.

First off let me say that it is EXTREMELY unlikely (I’d honestly say virtually impossible) that the Michael we knew prior to this fall will ever be back.

I think that it will have to be considered to be a triumph of human physical resiliency, and of modern neurointensive care, if Michael is able to walk, feed himself, dress himself, and if he retains significant elements of his previous personality. If recovery proceeds to this point (which is totally POSSIBLE, if perhaps rather improbable), it is an open question as to how well the “higher functions” (memory, concentration, reading, planning, etc) will recover. Please note, I would love to be proven wrong about this!

At the other end of the spectrum would be continued coma. Coma is defined as a state where there is neither wakefulness nor awareness (the patient cannot be woken by stimuli), no meaningful interaction with the environment, and no voluntary actions. This is obviously catastrophic. This outcome is entirely possible based on what we know about the brain’s primary injuries (the fall, the hematomas, bruises, etc) as well as the relatively long period with high ICP.

It happens that patients in coma emerge sufficiently to show spontaneous eye-opening, and even sleep-wake cycles (demonstrating wakefulness or arousal), but show no interaction with the environment, and no signs of any higher function (thought, speech, etc). This is called a vegetative state. Definitions vary somewhat, but usually after four weeks it is termed a persistent vegetative state, and after one year it is called a permanent vegetative state. Very roughly speaking, about 50% of head trauma patients who are in a vegetative state one month after injury become conscious, often with significant neurologic impairment. If the vegetative state persists for six months, this falls to roughly 20%, usually with severe impairment. After one year, resumption of normal consciousness is very rare, and, when it happens, function is usually gravely altered.

Whereas a patient in a vegetative state shows no signs of awareness, a patient in a minimally conscious state will show definite signs of awareness of either self and/or of the environment. This may include obeying simple orders, some intelligible language use, or other behaviors that seem “goal directed”. Examples would be appropriate emotional responses, appropriate eye tracking, consistent and appropriate movement or vocalisation in response to language (not just sounds). These signs usually fluctuate through the day, and over time. Importantly, the chances of meaningful recovery from a minimally conscious state are higher than from a vegetative state. They are however, still disappointingly low.

There is certainly reason for worry – lot’s of worry. But no reason to lose hope. Everyone who works with head-injured patients has seen VERY severely injured patients (who were not expected to do well) recover acceptably. All we can do is wait, pray, and be behind Michael and his loved ones."

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By *iewMan
Forum Mod

over a year ago

Angus & Findhorn

we never know what medical breakthroughs will happen and he has the opportunity to get the very best medical care.

good luck to him

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

recovery is different from person to person. give him a chance

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Its not like me to be serious on here, but on this occasion I will be.

I have been watching the news on TV this morning, and the general prognosis is that Schumi will 'not be the same' when he is bought out of his medically induced coma. I find this very sad, especially as he is one of my sporting heroes.

I have been speaking to the OH, and both of us agree we would rather the machines be switched of if we were going to be left as a cabbage for the rest of our days.

What would you want?"

Its a difficult one as some people regain a lot of skills and abilities but if it was near total immobility or little mental functionality I would rather pass away.

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