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Any Bikers, Mechanics, Legal People? I need advise befor 12pm tomorrow!?

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By *igwilly2k OP   Man
over a year ago

The Land of Kink!

Hellooo! I wonder if anybody can help?

I bought a motorcycle about 5 weeks ago, sold as seen from a dealer in widnes. Above the dealer is a born again Christian church who are also bikers. The bike a bought was 1 of 2 yamaha xj600 diversions, (I know its not the best bike in the world but I still had to save up and part with my hard earned cash!) Which was donated to the church to raise money.

The receipt I have has the blokes name on, date, bike, reg, price, and sold as seen. The dealer below the church gave it a full 12 month mot 2 days after I rode it away. Since then I've done about 1000 miles and the bike now has a petrol leak, the pipes are blowing and something else needs tightening up. Fair enuf sold as seen ect, I went to sell it to a dealer today cos I wanted to get rid off it, we agreed a price, shook hands and when I went back 2 hours later with my V5 he had HPI checked the bike and the engine number was different to the number on the documents.

So, I carnt sell the bike and neither cud the dealer, he said its illegal for me to sell the bike like this? So was it illegal for the dealer to mot the bike with the 2 differnt engine numbers? Is it illegal for me to ride it, is my insurance void?

The born again christain that I bought it off through the shop as a private sale said he is not in the position to offer me a refund.

Is there anyway I can trip them up and back them into a corner with some legal technical stuff?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you, Dan!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

dont have any legal experiance but as far as andy(ex mechanic) knows if a stolen car/bike is recovered the owner has no claim and can loose the car/bike and the money, however it maybe that your bike had a second hand engine fitted at some point and the owner didnt register the change.

I would think a call to the police might be a good idea, they are very helpful and as you are not at fault should be able to give advise.

Andy also said never trust anyone and always hpi any vehicle you buy. not much help for you now but a valid point.

Also i believe that even in a private sale the goods have to match the description and your bike doesnt as the engine has been changed so i think you might have some legal recource against the seller.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'd agree with that, speak to the police.

..and I'd imagine you aren't insured, the insurance companies will do anything to get away with not paying out.

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By *igwilly2k OP   Man
over a year ago

The Land of Kink!

Thanks for that, I'm going the CAB tomorrow morning. The only worrie I have if I call the police I may have it confiscated?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Hiya , not a great help I'm afraid , but the engine number isn't checked during an mot , and if the faults were ok during the mot theres no comeback to the dealer .

The engine number can just be changed on the v5 and sent to the dvla , not a major headache , it sounds like the engine may have been swapped to sell it , probably all above board although the seller should of informed you

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By *iamondsmiles.Woman
over a year ago

little house on the praire

Just a thought, have you checked this christian site out to check they are legitimage and its not just a scam to get rid of stolen stuff

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By *igwilly2k OP   Man
over a year ago

The Land of Kink!

Ano the thing is tho the bike fcuked after a cpl of weeks, I can't sell it till I change the engine on the V5 and that could take upto 4 weeks!

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By *entscotscplCouple
over a year ago

falkirk ish

not a leagal eagle here either

but get a few of your m8s to go with you to the place of purchace

a few words in the god squads shell and im sure he will give you your hard earned cash back !!!!!!!!!!!!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

When you say a dealer, what exactly do you mean? because dealers cannot state sold as seen, only private sellers can.

You really should have had your own hpi check done before parting with the cash? although when buying a bike car, the first thing you should do is check the numbers match the V5.

It's whether the engine is legit thats the problem, if it is, then its simply just a case of returning the V5 with the new engine number to have it changed.

The civil courts would be the way to go if you get nowhere with the seller.

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay


"Just a thought, have you checked this christian site out to check they are legitimage and its not just a scam to get rid of stolen stuff"

Funnily enough I did read about a spate of burglaries in Liverpool where crucifixes were found at the scene...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Also i believe that even in a private sale the goods have to match the description and your bike doesnt as the engine has been changed so i think you might have some legal recource against the seller."

Indeed, just because it is a private sale doesn't mean the transaction is exempt from legislation concerning fit for purpose, merchandisable quality, etc. I would suggest that your bike was not fit for the purpose - your purpose was to tax it, insure it, and ride it, which you cannot now do. The seller needs to refund, and you need to tell him this in writing. There is also the possibility that you can go for rescission of the contract and enforce, through litigation if needed, the placing of both parties to the transaction back into the position they were in before the sale, which in your case means getting your money back.

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By *oftyladnloftyladyCouple
over a year ago

worcester

why would a hpi check show engine numbers thought they just did chassis/vin, finance,insurance damage, mileage and history.

DVLA will not just change engine numbers, now they want receipts or engineers reports as proof.

it is hard but lots of people get caught out but as said it may be just a simple engine change already done and not registered where poor work is now giving you the problems.

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By *igwilly2k OP   Man
over a year ago

The Land of Kink!


"When you say a dealer, what exactly do you mean? because dealers cannot state sold as seen, only private sellers can.

You really should have had your own hpi check done before parting with the cash? although when buying a bike car, the first thing you should do is check the numbers match the V5.

It's whether the engine is legit thats the problem, if it is, then its simply just a case of returning the V5 with the new engine number to have it changed.

The civil courts would be the way to go if you get nowhere with the seller."

It was being sold in a dealership as a private sale for the church upstairs, the bloke said save my name as ohnest in you phone, the cheak!

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By *entadreadMan
over a year ago

Essex

You could try a small claims court, because I do not think this is a criminal offence, (The bike was sold as seen). As for the engine change, there is nothing wrong with this as DVLA get notified of this.

it sux, and being a church / christian organisation, they should do what Jesus would have done, and refund your money.

"whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them" Mathews 7:12.

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By *edhot4blkCouple
over a year ago

York/London/Crantock

there is an old law which may count in this area, the law clearly states once u have bought an item and this item isnt able to be used for the reason u have bought it u are able to take it back to the person.firm/group etc that u did indeed buy it from, the person who sold u the item was at fault in selling it to u in the first place, if however this person gives u no joy then u are able to go to small claims court, its very drawn out but trust me the law is on ur side in cases like this and there to protect u..

firstly advise Swansea DVLA.. there will be no need to inform the police as they will do it for u, if this bike hasnt been stolen they will soon know as to the vin number or known as chassis number, if this is the case they will then go back thru the list of owners and do a full record check..good luck..stella..xxxx

ps this could be just an engine change and they simply forgot to inform swansea so they didnt change the details...xxx

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By *igwilly2k OP   Man
over a year ago

The Land of Kink!

Yeah, I think that's what in going to do. Although it was a private sale the garage was heavily involved. Like somebody has said it was purchased for the puropse of to tax, insure, and ride it, which I can now no longer do as my insurance will be void if I have a accident and they check the engine number.

On the other hand, it could just be a genuine mistake, but from what I've been told its against the law for him to sell the bike like that. Plus the fact its falling apart 5 weeks after I've bought it.

I've also seen in a forum on the internet somewere the police cannot conviskate the bike if the vin number is correct bit the engine number isn't, you quote tort law I think it was called.

Oh well, thanks for your advise everyone, ill update the post tomrrow when I meet the seller again, thanksn Dan xx

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

this is becoming a common scam, go straight to trading standards.

Dealers, sub let or 'sell on behalf' of private people and then claim that it has nothing to do with them.

This resolves them of the consumers rights which you are entitled to. If you go trading standards they will make a spot check visit on them and also find out if anyone else has been caught out with the same scheme.

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay


"You could try a small claims court, because I do not think this is a criminal offence, (The bike was sold as seen). As for the engine change, there is nothing wrong with this as DVLA get notified of this.

it sux, and being a church / christian organisation, they should do what Jesus would have done, and refund your money.

"whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them" Mathews 7:12. "

Was Jesus a motorbike salesman too?, feckin' hell he kept himself well busy.

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By *ornyandnymphoCouple
over a year ago

poole


"Hellooo! I wonder if anybody can help?

I bought a motorcycle about 5 weeks ago, sold as seen from a dealer in widnes. Above the dealer is a born again Christian church who are also bikers. The bike a bought was 1 of 2 yamaha xj600 diversions, (I know its not the best bike in the world but I still had to save up and part with my hard earned cash!) Which was donated to the church to raise money.

The receipt I have has the blokes name on, date, bike, reg, price, and sold as seen. The dealer below the church gave it a full 12 month mot 2 days after I rode it away. Since then I've done about 1000 miles and the bike now has a petrol leak, the pipes are blowing and something else needs tightening up. Fair enuf sold as seen ect, I went to sell it to a dealer today cos I wanted to get rid off it, we agreed a price, shook hands and when I went back 2 hours later with my V5 he had HPI checked the bike and the engine number was different to the number on the documents.

So, I carnt sell the bike and neither cud the dealer, he said its illegal for me to sell the bike like this? So was it illegal for the dealer to mot the bike with the 2 differnt engine numbers? Is it illegal for me to ride it, is my insurance void?

The born again christain that I bought it off through the shop as a private sale said he is not in the position to offer me a refund.

Is there anyway I can trip them up and back them into a corner with some legal technical stuff?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you, Dan! "

As you bought it from a dealer Trading Standards are the peolpe to contact. You'll find their number in the local phone book or yellow pages. They will help you at no cost. You may even be able to get a full refund. No shop likes trading standards being involved, as we have found out.

Hope this helps and good luck xx

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You say you got a receipt, but did you pay cash ? In other words, there was no invoice ? If so, this is something the Inland Revenue would be very interested in hearing about.

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay


"You say you got a receipt, but did you pay cash ? In other words, there was no invoice ? If so, this is something the Inland Revenue would be very interested in hearing about."

What???

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By *uss PussWoman
over a year ago

east cheshire


"You say you got a receipt, but did you pay cash ? In other words, there was no invoice ? If so, this is something the Inland Revenue would be very interested in hearing about.

What???"

I think he means that the dealer may be avoiding declaring VAT if there is no invoice and he paid cash.

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay


"You say you got a receipt, but did you pay cash ? In other words, there was no invoice ? If so, this is something the Inland Revenue would be very interested in hearing about.

What???

I think he means that the dealer may be avoiding declaring VAT if there is no invoice and he paid cash."

Unless of course they are not VAT registered....

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By *uss PussWoman
over a year ago

east cheshire


"You say you got a receipt, but did you pay cash ? In other words, there was no invoice ? If so, this is something the Inland Revenue would be very interested in hearing about.

What???

I think he means that the dealer may be avoiding declaring VAT if there is no invoice and he paid cash.

Unless of course they are not VAT registered...."

true

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

In keeping with the promise I made on my profile, as shall not be responding to a biker's threa.... ah bollox!! My cock is too small!!

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston


"You say you got a receipt, but did you pay cash ? In other words, there was no invoice ? If so, this is something the Inland Revenue would be very interested in hearing about.

What???

I think he means that the dealer may be avoiding declaring VAT if there is no invoice and he paid cash.

Unless of course they are not VAT registered...."

a motorcycle dealer not VAT reg? I think not, unless they dont sell bikes or do many repairs! LoL

demand that they return ALL your money + any out of pocket expences you hav had! If they refuse call the police,even if they did act as an agent for a 3rd party they are motor dealers and had a duty yo ensure that the vehicle they sold conformed to the V5 (I do believe)

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay


"You say you got a receipt, but did you pay cash ? In other words, there was no invoice ? If so, this is something the Inland Revenue would be very interested in hearing about.

What???

I think he means that the dealer may be avoiding declaring VAT if there is no invoice and he paid cash.

Unless of course they are not VAT registered....

a motorcycle dealer not VAT reg? I think not, unless they dont sell bikes or do many repairs! LoL

demand that they return ALL your money + any out of pocket expences you hav had! If they refuse call the police,even if they did act as an agent for a 3rd party they are motor dealers and had a duty yo ensure that the vehicle they sold conformed to the V5 (I do believe)"

It was a private sale, in which case VAT doesn't come into it...

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By *uss PussWoman
over a year ago

east cheshire


"You say you got a receipt, but did you pay cash ? In other words, there was no invoice ? If so, this is something the Inland Revenue would be very interested in hearing about.

What???

I think he means that the dealer may be avoiding declaring VAT if there is no invoice and he paid cash.

Unless of course they are not VAT registered....

a motorcycle dealer not VAT reg? I think not, unless they dont sell bikes or do many repairs! LoL

demand that they return ALL your money + any out of pocket expences you hav had! If they refuse call the police,even if they did act as an agent for a 3rd party they are motor dealers and had a duty yo ensure that the vehicle they sold conformed to the V5 (I do believe)

It was a private sale, in which case VAT doesn't come into it..."

It was from a dealer, thus not a private sale

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay


"You say you got a receipt, but did you pay cash ? In other words, there was no invoice ? If so, this is something the Inland Revenue would be very interested in hearing about.

What???

I think he means that the dealer may be avoiding declaring VAT if there is no invoice and he paid cash.

Unless of course they are not VAT registered....

a motorcycle dealer not VAT reg? I think not, unless they dont sell bikes or do many repairs! LoL

demand that they return ALL your money + any out of pocket expences you hav had! If they refuse call the police,even if they did act as an agent for a 3rd party they are motor dealers and had a duty yo ensure that the vehicle they sold conformed to the V5 (I do believe)

It was a private sale, in which case VAT doesn't come into it...

It was from a dealer, thus not a private sale"

The OP clearly states within the thread that is was a private sale....

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By *uss PussWoman
over a year ago

east cheshire


"I bought a motorcycle about 5 weeks ago, sold as seen from a dealer in widnes. "

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

It's like a mechanic at your local garage selling you a car he owns, he can display it within the garage premises for sale providing he doesn't claim to be the garage owners conducting the sale.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The law states that any goods that are 'sold as seen' are still subject to the same laws that any other sale is subject to. A seller is not allowed to make a written statement that you have no legal rights when you buy goods from them and any receipt that says 'sold as seen' on it is not supported in law.

The law also states that goods purchased must be of satisfactory quality. This means that the goods should be free of any faults, including minor ones. They should be of the quality that a reasonable person would expect given the description, price and any other relevant circumstances. You can take into account the appearance and finish of the goods, and whether there are any defects (including minor ones). You can also take into account whether publicised information about specific features of the goods is accurate, and whether the goods are safe when used properly.

A trader may also be guilty of a criminal offence if they fail to give you important information that affects whether or not you buy something. This is called a misleading omission. For example, a trader advertises mobile phones for sale without mentioning they are reconditioned, or as in your c\se, an engine had been replaced on a vehicle and it's documentation does not reflect this. This is important information that you should have been told about.

Your rights become invalid if you try to repair the problem yourself. The duty lies with the seller to make good any faulty product he has sold you and you can claim for a full refund if the goods are not fit for purpose or you were not told about a defect or change in the goods prior to the sale.

The fact that you bought the item from a dealer means that he is a registered business and your rights are protected. If he had been a private seller you would have little recourse to claim a refund but that is not the case here.

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

"Although it was a private sale the garage was heavily involved".....

Not the same as the garage selling the bike as part of their business

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"It's like a mechanic at your local garage selling you a car he owns, he can display it within the garage premises for sale providing he doesn't claim to be the garage owners conducting the sale.

"

That depends very much on how the vehicle was displayed for sale. If it was included with any other items offered for sale by the garage owner it is reasonable for the purchaser to assume that it is not a private sale. It is the duty of the garage owner to ensure that vehicles sold through his outlet are his own goods and not someone else's.

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

"The born again christain that I bought it off through the shop as a private sale said he is not in the position to offer me a refund"

The problem lies within the OP not knowing for sure if he brought the bike from the dealer or through a private sale, if he has no bill of sale with the garage heading on it then it was a private sale.

If you go into a garage and ask if they have a certain bike in stock and they say they do not but the bloke living upstairs is selling one and put you on to him, or act as a third party agent to aid the sale, they are not selling the bike as the registered owners.

The devil is in the detail, no bill of sale from the garage owner means little comeback in law.

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By *ortheastcoupleukCouple
over a year ago

easington were the sun dont shine

our lass bought a car from a dealer and a few weeks later found out the engine was stolen the garage said they would swap the car for same type price we refused , she took them to court where ,,,,,,,the dealer did not turn up court awarded her x amount of pounds ,had to pay bailiff to go collect ,,,the dealer had changed owner ship ,, case over,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston


""Although it was a private sale the garage was heavily involved".....

Not the same as the garage selling the bike as part of their business"

I believe that the fraud/theft laws were changed to deal with motor dealers being "involved in the sale of ringed vehicles" while claiming that they were not the sellers.

I am pretty sure that all motor dealers have a statutory duty to ensure that ANY vehicle that they are involved in the sale of is legal and that the paperwork is in order.

I am sure a quick call to your local traffic unit garage sergeant will clarify the law.

PS. A bike shop that sells motorcycles is a motor dealer as motorcycles ARE motor vehicles

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

[Removed by poster at 31/03/10 11:59:24]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"The OP clearly states within the thread that is was a private sale...."

Private sale or not, the Inland Revenue will be interested in somebody taking cash, which implies it is not going through the books or being declared. As for VAT, an individual who supplies the same goods and services privately that his business also supplies is of interest to the authorities. After all, why should any business charge VAT and pay corporation tax, they could just say it was a private supply !

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