FabSwingers.com forum: One less terrorist.....

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Nelson Mandela was the head of the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. He was convicted of 156 counts of public violence, he was on the US terrorist watch list till as late as 2008. These are facts.

We have short memories, close to home we have gerry adams, lets stop being PC and wiping it under the carpet. These people at a minimum incited poeople to kill other innocents.

I would never wish anyone dead but will not mourn his passing.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Nelson Mandela was the head of the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. He was convicted of 156 counts of public violence, he was on the US terrorist watch list till as late as 2008. These are facts.

We have short memories, close to home we have gerry adams, lets stop being PC and wiping it under the carpet. These people at a minimum incited poeople to kill other innocents.

I would never wish anyone dead but will not mourn his passing."

Finally a like minded soul. Good man, and well said.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Understand where your coming from, but the end result was he free'd millions of south africans

It's just a shame how he had to go about it

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm not going to dignify this thread with a response ...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm not going to dignify this thread with a response ..."

you just did

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By *ucsparkMan
over a year ago

dudley

The master of the Rolls of our great country once said " one man's terrorist is other Nan's freedom fighter & judge not less you want to be judged". The only thing that can really judge a man is their actions and the thinking behind their action. Mourn the dead for they can do you no harm,

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By *izzy RascallMan
over a year ago

Cardiff

Its too soon for this.

He's someones Dad so for that reason alone we shouldnt speak badly of him.

There are other reasons.

I dont believe his passing is a 'tragedy' but it is sad.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The master of the Rolls of our great country once said " one man's terrorist is other Nan's freedom fighter & judge not less you want to be judged". The only thing that can really judge a man is their actions and the thinking behind their action. Mourn the dead for they can do you no harm,

My nan loves Mandela.

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By *ucsparkMan
over a year ago

dudley

My nan loves Mandela. "

And Nan's are never wrong

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Oops wandered into the right wing section by mistake, sorry as you were.

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By *unky monkeyMan
over a year ago

in the night garden

You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Does he ends ever justify the means?

To the victor the spoils

Lets not even go to whats his wife in conjunction with the ANC was doing.

Yes hes someones dad etc but why the public out pouring.

Everyone is allowed and opinion and all i did was state facts.

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By *B9 QueenWoman
over a year ago

Over the rainbow, under the bridge

Winston Churchill advocated dropping gas bombs on 'uncivilised tribes' in Northern Iraq (the Kurds) in the 1920s.

When Saddam Hussain gassed Kurdish villages it was considered a crime.

History's a funny thing.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We have short memories, close to home we have gerry adams, lets stop being PC and wiping it under the carpet. These people at a minimum incited poeople to kill other innocents.

I would never wish anyone dead but will not mourn his passing.

Finally a like minded soul. Good man, and well said."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Well I guess those that fought against slavery in America are all terrorists as well then . Technically you are correct using the term , but very blinkered to the bigger picture and actual outcome for that country .

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

History is written by the winner. This means that any atrocities can be swept under the carpet easily.

World history would have been very different if Germany had won the sencond world war.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Well I guess those that fought against slavery in America are all terrorists as well then . Technically you are correct using the term , but very blinkered to the bigger picture and actual outcome for that country . "

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm not going to dignify this thread with a response ...

you just did

lol.... Please accept this attempt at a phonetic fart as a token of my thanks..

pbtpbtpbtpbtpbtpbtpbt

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By *ingerbicky69Woman
over a year ago

EXETER

We have short memories, close to home we have gerry adams, lets stop being PC and wiping it under the carpet. These people at a minimum incited poeople to kill other innocents.

I would never wish anyone dead but will not mourn his passing."
one mans terrorist is anothers freedom fighter

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm not going to dignify this thread with a response ...

you just did

lol.... Please accept this attempt at a phonetic fart as a token of my thanks..

pbtpbtpbtpbtpbtpbtpbt

Change your diet

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

When people are being wronged, and let's face it, the degree of wrong in this case was huge, people have the choice of laying down and taking it, or fighting it.

Fights are never pleasant but they are often the only way to effect change.

I don't necessarily agree with all the methods used but I understand why he felt he needed to do what he did. He gave up a lot on behalf of others and he achieved some truly historic changes. For that he has my respect.

What he did was never going to happen without things getting messy.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

A terrorist who would be the figurehead of a movement to end Apartheid, and who would later bring democracy and social reforms to a beleaguered nation.

I think I'll go along with the depth of feeling in South Africa itself as opposed to us in our cosy little homes in the UK.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm not going to dignify this thread with a response ...

you just did

lol.... Please accept this attempt at a phonetic fart as a token of my thanks..

pbtpbtpbtpbtpbtpbtpbt

Change your diet

I guess that’s better than telling me to loosen my sphincter ....

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By *izzy RascallMan
over a year ago

Cardiff

"Does he ends ever justify the means?

To the victor the spoils

Lets not even go to whats his wife in conjunction with the ANC was doing.

Yes hes someones dad etc but why the public out pouring.

Everyone is allowed and opinion and all i did was state facts."

I think in a few days/weeks time this thread will have more strength (for want of a better word), but he has only just died.

He's a very popular man for what he stood up for and believed in, I can only guess thats why there has been such a huge outpouring of emotion. Prize winner, ex president etc

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

On the subject of short memories David Cameron while eulogising about what a great man Mandela was appears to have forgotten some of what he was doing on the 80s

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm not going to dignify this thread with a response ...

you just did

lol.... Please accept this attempt at a phonetic fart as a token of my thanks..

pbtpbtpbtpbtpbtpbtpbt

Change your diet

I guess that’s better than telling me to loosen my sphincter ....

Well, we don't want leakage do we?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"When people are being wronged, and let's face it, the degree of wrong in this case was huge, people have the choice of laying down and taking it, or fighting it.

Fights are never pleasant but they are often the only way to effect change.

What he did was never going to happen without things getting messy."

see, common sense.

many more blacks were killed in the fight to end apartheid, than whites were, so who can they really be terrorists wen faced with an oppressive governance?

seeings as, by the grace of all you believe in, we have never had to face one, then maybe we should cut those that have, and want a better way of life, a little slack.

afterall, not many terrorists have won a peace prize, along with the leader of the government which he was fighting against.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

The only thing changed really is the color of the elite, drive though the outskirts of cities like Joburg and you hit Soweto and all the other townships, still in poverty still in tin huts, whilst the rulers in the ivory towers. Same shit just different color.

Just when you are "celebrating" someones life you cant blank out big chunks of it that you dont agree with, what a bout the relaties of people he killed and maimed are they out on the streets mourning..mmmm I think not...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Spot on

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm not going to dignify this thread with a response ...

you just did

lol.... Please accept this attempt at a phonetic fart as a token of my thanks..

pbtpbtpbtpbtpbtpbtpbt

Change your diet

I guess that’s better than telling me to loosen my sphincter ....

Well, we don't want leakage do we?"

Ewwwwww like phonetic diarrhoea…..

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By *B9 QueenWoman
over a year ago

Over the rainbow, under the bridge

"The only thing changed really is the color of the elite, drive though the outskirts of cities like Joburg and you hit Soweto and all the other townships, still in poverty still in tin huts, whilst the rulers in the ivory towers. Same shit just different color.

The ANC only gave up peaceful resistance after the Sharpville Massacre where 69 protesters were slaughtered by the white police. They then began a period of sabotage.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

A great leader..... a great man.....an inspiration..... and a convicted terrorist to boot. The man had it all.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"A terrorist who would be the figurehead of a movement to end Apartheid, and who would later bring democracy and social reforms to a beleaguered nation.

I think I'll go along with the depth of feeling in South Africa itself as opposed to us in our cosy little homes in the UK."

Well Said.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I wonder if there was ever a moment in his life when he hoped people on a swingers site would judge him well.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Right let's be honest what did he achieve? If you look at it properly he rode in on a wave optimism, did he end apartheid no, did he give black people the vote? No!

All this was done by f.w de klerk, who released him from prison,

The man didn't do 27 years for playing tiddlywinks, he was a terrorist yes the

Blacks of south Africa were abused and miss treated but that doesn't mean it's ok to blow Shit up endangering lives, going by people's views on here the ira bombings of the 80's And 90's are acceptable because they have a course to fight for? Or is that different because it affected our country

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I wonder if there was ever a moment in his life when he hoped people on a swingers site would judge him well."

Well 30odd years in prison, your mind is bound to wonder!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm not going to dignify this thread with a response ..."
you just did!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Right let's be honest what did he achieve? If you look at it properly he rode in on a wave optimism, did he end apartheid no, did he give black people the vote? No!

All this was done by f.w de klerk, who released him from prison,

The man didn't do 27 years for playing tiddlywinks, he was a terrorist yes the

Don't get me started about the IRA / INLA / UDA / UVF / UFF etc!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We have short memories, close to home we have gerry adams, lets stop being PC and wiping it under the carpet. These people at a minimum incited poeople to kill other innocents.

I would never wish anyone dead but will not mourn his passing."

Perhaps he had a road to Damascus moment in Prison and realised there was another way. Thank goodness all parties somehow managed to turn the other cheek. Must have been the hardest thing some people could ever do. I'm not sure if I could do what he has done.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Right let's be honest what did he achieve? If you look at it properly he rode in on a wave optimism, did he end apartheid no, did he give black people the vote? No!

All this was done by f.w de klerk, who released him from prison,

The man didn't do 27 years for playing tiddlywinks, he was a terrorist yes the

i have said it before, and will say it again

one mans terrorist is anothers freedom fighter.

i have much more sympathy/admiration for people that stay in their own countries and fight for what they believe than hide in another country and moan about it.

at least they are standing up for what they believe whether it right or wrong

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm not going to dignify this thread with a response ...you just did!

Oh no I didn't....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"A great leader..... a great man.....an inspiration..... and a convicted terrorist to boot. The man had it all. "

Osama Bin Laden?

I have little respect for Mandela. If you want a true hero for the fight against oppression look at Ghandi and Martin Luther King

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By *teveanddebsCouple
over a year ago

Norwich

"Right let's be honest what did he achieve? If you look at it properly he rode in on a wave optimism, did he end apartheid no, did he give black people the vote? No!

All this was done by f.w de klerk, who released him from prison,

The man didn't do 27 years for playing tiddlywinks, he was a terrorist yes the

Terrorism works, as much as governments trot out the 'we don't do deals with terrorists' line they then go on to prove that they do. Just look at how many terrorists end up going to tea at number 10.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Exactly,but some that have never had to deal with,fear,repression,predjudice or total injustice in their lives and who will never have to deal with it find it very easy to sit in a bubble of smug and spout hatred through sheer ugly ignorance

The omlette analogy is perfect

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By *B9 QueenWoman
over a year ago

Over the rainbow, under the bridge

"Right let's be honest what did he achieve? If you look at it properly he rode in on a wave optimism, did he end apartheid no, did he give black people the vote? No!

All this was done by f.w de klerk, who released him from prison,

The man didn't do 27 years for playing tiddlywinks, he was a terrorist yes the

To say that blacks were abused and mistreated is an enormous understatement. They were tortured, detained, denied freedom, denied the vote, denied a decent education or employment, denied the freedom of movement in their own country, denied their own language (considered internationally as a form of genocide), imprisoned in black townships, and slaughtered when they protested. Much as the Jews were in the beginning of the Nazi state.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Right let's be honest what did he achieve? If you look at it properly he rode in on a wave optimism, did he end apartheid no, did he give black people the vote? No!

All this was done by f.w de klerk, who released him from prison,

The man didn't do 27 years for playing tiddlywinks, he was a terrorist yes the

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

George Washington and his mates, The French Resistance, Gerry Adams and his lot, the 9/11 bombers, Nelson Mandela, Lee Rigby's killers......Robin Hood.!

All could be argued as being terrorists or fighters with a just cause.

History has the final say on who is looked back on as being hero or villain, its usually decided by who won.

I have no problem with the Op stating facts, he's right. That said, when I look at the facts, the story of his life, the bigger picture, his cause and the result.....Mandela falls into the hero category in my personal history book.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

This is not by any means a generalisation...just a thought I had, in relation to someone mentioning innocent people dying as a result of the anc's terrorism.

How innocent and free from any sort of responsibility are those people who, for years, enjoyed the fruits of white privelege while wilfully ignoring and remaining passively compliant to the massive, unimaginable mental and physical abuses suffered by their darker skinned countrymen?

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By *B9 QueenWoman
over a year ago

Over the rainbow, under the bridge

We do have to remember that this was a black country. An African country. Black people had not emigrated there. It was their home. The whites had colonised it or invaded it depending on your viewpoint because of the vast mineral wealth. The Boer War was a conflict between whites fighting over this. Had the whites left well alone what would history have been for genuine black South Africans?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Your opening post had some validity, but this is naive at best.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"This is not by any means a generalisation...just a thought I had, in relation to someone mentioning innocent people dying as a result of the anc's terrorism.

Ignorance and innocence are often closer together than we like to admit.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"We do have to remember that this was a black country. An African country. Black people had not emigrated there. It was their home. The whites had colonised it or invaded it depending on your viewpoint because of the vast mineral wealth. The Boer War was a conflict between whites fighting over this. Had the whites left well alone what would history have been for genuine black South Africans? "

Strictly speaking it was never a country before.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Lol. Morons arguing with fools

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By *B9 QueenWoman
over a year ago

Over the rainbow, under the bridge

Strictly speaking it was never a country before."

But it was their homeland. It was never a white homeland. Quibbling about what to call it doesn't change that.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Must resist....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Strictly speaking it was never a country before.

But it was their homeland. It was never a white homeland. Quibbling about what to call it doesn't change that. "

No but in answer to your question it suggests there very likely would never have been a South Africa.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Lol. Morons arguing with fools"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

They are not "facts". It is the documented history of a facist state.

By definition it cannot be relied upon to be factual.

In the same way that the Nazi's recorded history cannot.

Nelson Mandela was a great man, who went through a great deal of suffering in his fight for equality.

The people he was fighting were pure evil. No other word for it.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"They are not "facts".It is the documented history of a facist state.

By definition it cannot be relied upon to be factual.

In the same way that the Nazi's recorded history cannot.

Nelson Mandela was a great man, who went through a great deal of suffering in his fight for equality.

The people he was fighting were pure evil. No other word for it."

Excuse me, "they are not Facts"??? Please check your history.

He pleaded guilty to 156 counts of public violence even trying to justify them after his release and many times during his inprisonment, this is not propganda he admits it and his wife also does.

He is documented by the ANC as being head of the terrorist wing.

And check the USA congress vote when in 2008 and amendedment by George W. Bush removed him from the terrorists watch list.

Please try and at least argue a point not just deny history.....and the holocaust didnt happen either....

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

this..

unless you lived as a member of the indigenous population before and after Apartheid was imposed by the SA state, not sure any of us can have the foggiest tbh.

Bit like saying the Resistance in France were terrorists for opposing the Nazi's..

Apartheid was a disgusting regime and the world is better for its demise..

No..?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Bit like saying the Resistance in France were terrorists for opposing the Nazi's.."

That's a good comparison

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 06/12/13 11:08:31]

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Bit like saying the Resistance in France were terrorists for opposing the Nazi's..

That's a good comparison "

Yes it is and if Germany had won the war they would have been classed as terrorists. So as all ready said the winner writes history.

We dont have to accept or beleive it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"A terrorist who would be the figurehead of a movement to end Apartheid, and who would later bring democracy and social reforms to a beleaguered nation.

I think I'll go along with the depth of feeling in South Africa itself as opposed to us in our cosy little homes in the UK."

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"Bit like saying the Resistance in France were terrorists for opposing the Nazi's..

That's a good comparison

Yes it is and if Germany had won the war they would have been classed as terrorists. So as all ready said the winner writes history.

We dont have to accept or beleive it."

Do you believe that Apartheid was right or correct..?

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

Mandela described himself as an old man and ex-criminal. I don't advocate violence and I think it takes extreme circumstances for most political movements to take up violence. South Africa had extreme circumstances.

Maggie Thatcher described Mandela as living in cloud cuckoo land if he ever thought he could end apartheid and lead the nation. De Klerk worked alongside Mandela to get the changes in motion: that is the power of Mandela. He changed political opinions and those of his critics to see what he was saying.

In a very sad and strange way the violence that meant he was imprisoned on Robben Island led to the thoughtful, forgiving man and powerful thinker he became.

I do believe in redemption.

South Africa has much to fix but you can't undo decades, centuries of beliefs, structures and beliefs in under 25 years. Their journey has only just begun and they know how much there is to do.

OP, I defend your right to start this thread and state the facts. I don't disagree with facts but I can and do disagree with interpretation.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Do you believe that Apartheid was right or correct..?"

Dont understand the point of the question as whether the regime is right or wrong doesnt not make killing innocent people acceptable.

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By *ust_for_laughsCouple
over a year ago

Hinckley

"Bit like saying the Resistance in France were terrorists for opposing the Nazi's..

That's a good comparison

Yes it is and if Germany had won the war they would have been classed as terrorists. So as all ready said the winner writes history.

We dont have to accept or beleive it.

Do you believe that Apartheid was right or correct..?"

This forum is like one huge face palm at times!

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By *inaTitzTV/TS
over a year ago

Titz Towers, North Notts

Social mores change through time. However, some things are just wrong and require opposing.

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By *obbobeanMan
over a year ago

dagenham

We have short memories, close to home we have gerry adams, lets stop being PC and wiping it under the carpet. These people at a minimum incited poeople to kill other innocents.

I would never wish anyone dead but will not mourn his passing."

The Two people you mention are bad examples of terrorists, in my book they were fighting oppression, not trying to force their religious beliefs on others. "One man's terrorist, is another man's freedom fighter"

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

Do you believe that Apartheid was right or correct..?

Dont understand the point of the question as whether the regime is right or wrong doesnt not make killing innocent people acceptable.

That seems to indicate that your deliberately avoiding the question in referring only to the effects of the reaction to a totalitarian and vile regime..

all stories and history are never one sided..

perhaps look at the whole picture perhaps before starting such a thread..?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"OP, I defend your right to start this thread and state the facts. I don't disagree with facts but I can and do disagree with interpretation.

I understand what you are saying and dont disagree that he did try and do lots for his country men and succeed in some I was never agueing that and thanks for someone actually realising. All I was saying is in these days of PC and public outpourings of sorrow over someone most have only read about lets look at the whole facts not just the selective few.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 06/12/13 11:28:30]

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By *icentiousCouple
over a year ago

Up on them there hills

I believe that you are only a terrorist if you loose.

However, allegedly, when a reporter asked Mandela why he didn’t capitulate and give into the government’s wishes he replied, ‘because of my mother.’

When pressed further Mandela responded (paraphrased).

‘My mother told me there are three types of people in this world’

‘One who leaves this world leaving nothing, only a name that is lost within a generation.’

‘Then there are those that are remembered because of the evil they brought to the world.’

‘Then there are those that leave this world just a little better then when they came into it, I didn’t want to let my mother down.’

Probably just an urban myth, however I do kind of wonder what my mother would have said.

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

Let's not forget that back in the 80s, the Federation of Conservative Students, whose prominent members included a certain David Cameron, were the ones printing and circulating Hang Mandela posters.

Madiba must have been doing something right.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"OP, I defend your right to start this thread and state the facts. I don't disagree with facts but I can and do disagree with interpretation.

It was hardly presented as a balanced question in the first place!

For me I think he was most interesting for his actions once he got into power. He could have done things very differently, but he chose not to.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Do you believe that Apartheid was right or correct..?

Dont understand the point of the question as whether the regime is right or wrong doesnt not make killing innocent people acceptable.

That seems to indicate that your deliberately avoiding the question in referring only to the effects of the reaction to a totalitarian and vile regime..

all stories and history are never one sided..

perhaps look at the whole picture perhaps before starting such a thread..?

We all know what you are saying and for people who want to praise him there is already a thread and people were asked to leave that in respect to him , i was only putting the other side of the story.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The media will sweep and sweep as hard as they can to airbrush the man's criminal past as he is fast-tracked to Sainthood.

He was a communist, and incited murder against white farmers /Boer in SA quite happily singing “Kill the Boer, Kill the Farmer!” “…bring me my machine gun! Let’s shoot them with a cannon”!

People are unaware of the facts as they are slowly brainwashed by the leftist PC media revisionists.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm not racist in the slightest and agree with what they were trying to change, but I totally agree with this post .

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I wonder if there was ever a moment in his life when he hoped people on a swingers site would judge him well."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I wonder if there was ever a moment in his life when he hoped people on a swingers site would judge him well.

given his reputation as a ladies man he might have joined up

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Do you believe that Apartheid was right or correct..?

Dont understand the point of the question as whether the regime is right or wrong doesnt not make killing innocent people acceptable.

I'll repeat a question asked earlier:

"How innocent and free from any sort of responsibility are those people who, for years, enjoyed the fruits of white privelege while wilfully ignoring and remaining passively compliant to the massive, unimaginable mental and physical abuses suffered by their darker skinned countrymen?"

With regards to the point ..an unjust regime that uses on torture, degradation, repression and violence on a group of people will inevitably breed violence in those who suffer from its actions..and they will retaliate.

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

"I wonder if there was ever a moment in his life when he hoped people on a swingers site would judge him well.

given his reputation as a ladies man he might have joined up

Perhaps if he'd stuck to shagging them instead of going on to marry the three Mrs Mandelas, his life might not have been so complicated - not to mention sorting out his estate.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

Do you believe that Apartheid was right or correct..?

Dont understand the point of the question as whether the regime is right or wrong doesnt not make killing innocent people acceptable.

That seems to indicate that your deliberately avoiding the question in referring only to the effects of the reaction to a totalitarian and vile regime..

all stories and history are never one sided..

perhaps look at the whole picture perhaps before starting such a thread..?

We all know what you are saying and for people who want to praise him there is already a thread and people were asked to leave that in respect to him , i was only putting the other side of the story. "

yep, seen that thanks..

Tend to disagree with your perception of 'only putting the other side of the story'..

a broad debate on his past with the ANC is all well and good, open discussion and all that but your OP is only looking at one aspect of the struggle in SA..

ducking simple questions about whether Apartheid was a vile regime does make me think you only wish to concentrate on one aspect of his past whilst ignoring the regime he and many others of all colours fought to overthrow..

btw he acknowledged he had done wrong..

Not sure I have 'praised him' as anything other than someone who lived in times and under condition that we thankfully never have..

had it been so I would like to think I would have been brave enough to also oppose that regime..

Will ask you again do you believe that that Apartheid regime was wrong..?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The media will sweep and sweep as hard as they can to airbrush the man's criminal past as he is fast-tracked to Sainthood.

People are unaware of the facts as they are slowly brainwashed by the leftist PC media revisionists."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Do you believe that Apartheid was right or correct..?

Dont understand the point of the question as whether the regime is right or wrong doesnt not make killing innocent people acceptable.

I'll repeat a question asked earlier:

I don't think what he did is the real issue here

There is good and bad in every nation, yes white men did the same and worse but they aren't being treat like a hero for it I think that's what's getting up everyone's noses not what he did but how he's being remembered

that's just an observation by the way that's not me saying I personally don't think he should or shouldn't be remembered the way he is

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"The media will sweep and sweep as hard as they can to airbrush the man's criminal past as he is fast-tracked to Sainthood.

People are unaware of the facts as they are slowly brainwashed by the leftist PC media revisionists."

So there was no mass oppression by the use of force by the Apartheid regime, that what your saying?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

No, I am saying that a balanced or truthful argument is not being made about his past by the media.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We have short memories, close to home we have gerry adams, lets stop being PC and wiping it under the carpet. These people at a minimum incited poeople to kill other innocents.

I would never wish anyone dead but will not mourn his passing."

yes people forget that.todays terrorists are tommorows politicians..!!!

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I Still the question is irrelevant, by asking it you either

a) trying to say i support it and that why i have this view

b)trying to justify the actions.

I am not trying to force my views on anyone just trying to balance the forum by stating simple undeniable facts to couteract the other already stated in other threads and extending courtesey to them by not argueing on that thread.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"No, I am saying that a balanced or truthful argument is not being made about his past by the media. "

they havn't exactly airbrushed out that he was a leading figure in the ANC though..

maybe they have deemed that at this time its a bit lacking in sensitivity to look at all aspects of his life and struggle..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"When people are being wronged, and let's face it, the degree of wrong in this case was huge, people have the choice of laying down and taking it, or fighting it.

Fights are never pleasant but they are often the only way to effect change.

What he did was never going to happen without things getting messy."

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

"I Still the question is irrelevant, by asking it you either

a) trying to say i support it and that why i have this view

b)trying to justify the actions.

I appreciate you starting a separate thread. It allows both\however many view points to debate.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 06/12/13 11:56:45]

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"I Still the question is irrelevant, by asking it you either

a) trying to say i support it and that why i have this view

b)trying to justify the actions.

its not irrelevant at all, its directly relevant to your OP given that his and others actions were a reaction to a regime..

had there not been Apartheid with its policies at that time the ANC would have defeated it at the ballot box..

I am not insinuating you support that cause by asking the question..

You worded your OP in such a way that it is inevitable that part of the whole picture will be addressed..

not just one persons reaction to it..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The 'terrorism' part of his life, which a few seem to be focusing on, took place in the time when white people in South Africa systematically and deliberately segregated black people purely on the basis of race. Do you agree that that was a good thing? Please tell me you don't think that the black people of South Africa should have just lay down and taken this treatment? The rest of the world didn't give a shit so they themselves had to do something.

The ANC were largely a passive movement until 1960, then police shot dead 69 anti-apartheid protestors and it was that act that drove the ANC to give up their passive stance and take more direct action. Would you have still done nothing, even when your own brothers were being slaughtered just because of the colour of your skin?

I don't condone anyone killing anyone for any reason. This took place in a different time, in a different country, under a regime that none of us in this country can possibly imagine living under. One that created a class of citizen lower than second class, just because they had different coloured skin.

I agree that the killing of innocent people is never acceptable however, simply laying down and letting your own people be slaughtered is not acceptable either!

Prisons round the world exist to punish wrong doings, certainly the one he was in wasn't as cushy as some of ours in this country, and having spent 27 years in prison being punished for he did, he came out and helped change the direction of a nation by passive means. Don't forget, apartheid only ended in 1990!! To simple label him 'a terrorist' and nothing else because of something he did over 50 years ago is complete wrong.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I sympathise with the desire to see a balance of historical perspective on these forums.

Very important and I for one am thankful.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It takes a brave and outstanding character to stand up against an oppressive government to fight for his beliefs, particularly one which is prejudiced against people solely for the colour their skin. Yes technically a terrorist, but he paid the price for this with 25 years in prison, but what he did was for the greater good of his people, the world needs more people like Mandela.

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By *illing131Man
over a year ago

cardiff

[Removed by poster at 06/12/13 11:58:39]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 06/12/13 12:00:37]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Does he ends ever justify the means?

To the victor the spoils

Lets not even go to whats his wife in conjunction with the ANC was doing.

Yes hes someones dad etc but why the public out pouring.

Everyone is allowed and opinion and all i did was state facts."

Yes, sometimes the end does justify the means. If killing one or ten or a hundred people meant that millions were saved for whatever reason, would you think it was worth it?

This isn't related to apartheid by the way, more a general response to the end justifying the means.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The 'terrorism' part of his life, which a few seem to be focusing on, took place in the time when white people in South Africa systematically and deliberately segregated black people purely on the basis of race. Do you agree that that was a good thing? Please tell me you don't think that the black people of South Africa should have just lay down and taken this treatment? The rest of the world didn't give a shit so they themselves had to do something.

I agree that the killing of innocent people is never acceptable however, simply laying down and letting your own people be slaughtered is not acceptable either!

exactly!

Back in those times terrorism was the only way to fight back..

should he of sent petitions and held protests? Wasnt going to work that way!

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By *icboyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

Think of all the people that have fought back to gain equal rights as their oppressors. Or simply tried to survive against a murderous system.

Some of these turned into a battle for power and became something different in the end...

I personally think, to mention Nelson in the same sentence as Gerry Adams iS a bad mistake...these Guys are not the same...and cannot be measured by the same moral rule.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Do you believe that Apartheid was right or correct..?

Dont understand the point of the question as whether the regime is right or wrong doesnt not make killing innocent people acceptable.

I'll repeat a question asked earlier:

I don't think what he did is the real issue here

that's just an observation by the way that's not me saying I personally don't think he should or shouldn't be remembered the way he is"

What he did *is* the only issue...it's the interpretations of his actions (during his terrorist years) that is causing the difference of opinion.

Some sympathise with the conditions he was living under and feel the brutality of the environment where black people were treated as subhuman, and whites tacitly approved of this treatment, led him to fight fire with fire..

Others feel that this still didn't justify his actions.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"A terrorist who would be the figurehead of a movement to end Apartheid, and who would later bring democracy and social reforms to a beleaguered nation.

I think I'll go along with the depth of feeling in South Africa itself as opposed to us in our cosy little homes in the UK."

Possibly the best response to this thread, my feelings exactly.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

At the end of the day all he was trying to get was equal right for black people in their own country

fair play to him

And i'll leave it there before I start a riot

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

What he did *is* the only issue...it's the interpretations of his actions (during his terrorist years) that is causing the difference of opinion.

Others feel that this still didn't justify his actions.

So true at what point does collateral damage for the greater good become unacceptable?

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

What he did *is* the only issue...it's the interpretations of his actions (during his terrorist years) that is causing the difference of opinion.

Others feel that this still didn't justify his actions.

So true at what point does collateral damage for the greater good become unacceptable?"

When more collateral is lost than saved? I don't know but so many peaceful protests have been turned to violence because the peace and restraint shown has led to the oppressors becoming violent. Gandhi infuriated people by being peaceful. The Freedom Fighters in American were spat at, shot at, imprisoned and beaten for sitting peacefully at lunch counters. The ANC tried peace until people were massacred.

The question then becomes at which point do you respond to violence with violence?

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By *ust_for_laughsCouple
over a year ago

Hinckley

Slightly off-topic but interesting nonetheless, if you're interested in how dealings with terrorists are handled, is Pete Taylor's book 'Talking to Terrorists: Face to Face with the Enemy'.

As for Mandela, on balance the things he did once he was released from prison and the time he spent in prison, probably outweighed the acts he may have undertaken and authorised whilst a member of the ANC's terrorist wing (his founding of and participation in lasted for less than two years before he was arrested).

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What he did *is* the only issue...it's the interpretations of his actions (during his terrorist years) that is causing the difference of opinion.

Others feel that this still didn't justify his actions.

So true at what point does collateral damage for the greater good become unacceptable?"

Had there been substantial support for the black cause and justice sought for all - by the whites - who made sure to actively and vigorously challenge the South African state....instead of the giving the status quo, tacit approval, and enjoying being 'superior' then the picture would be seen differently.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The question then becomes at which point do you respond to violence with violence?"

Indeed

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By *illy7239Man
over a year ago

Stenhousemuir

We have short memories, close to home we have gerry adams, lets stop being PC and wiping it under the carpet. These people at a minimum incited poeople to kill other innocents.

I would never wish anyone dead but will not mourn his passing."

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By *ust_for_laughsCouple
over a year ago

Hinckley

What he did *is* the only issue...it's the interpretations of his actions (during his terrorist years) that is causing the difference of opinion.

Others feel that this still didn't justify his actions.

So true at what point does collateral damage for the greater good become unacceptable?"

Beyond the events in the Eastern Bloc in the late 1980's there haven't been a lot of peaceful revolutions, so whilst it's difficult to quantify the exact point, the point is inevitably arrived at! How the perpetrators choose to act once they've 'won' is more telling than how they 'won', don't you think?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

'Change must come down the barrel of a gun'

Chairman MAO TSE TUNG, peoples republic of china.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We have short memories, close to home we have gerry adams, lets stop being PC and wiping it under the carpet. These people at a minimum incited poeople to kill other innocents.

I would never wish anyone dead but will not mourn his passing."

I don’t think people have short memories I think the people mourning Mandela’s death have a complete picture of the man rather than just a biased limited picture of the man.

Nelson Mandela spent 27 years in prison so he paid for his sins, a fact you failed to mention. Many of the atrocities committed during the apartheid era have gone unpunished another fact you failed to mention.

However, the above is not why people are mourning Mandela I think it has more to do with how he responded after he was released from prison and became president of South Africa. He could have treated injustice with injustice instead he showed great tolerance and forgiveness. Instead of preaching hatred he preached peace and brought a nation closer together.

It is this legacy that we mourn today, not just nationally but globally. Furthermore, the traits he demonstrated such as forgiveness, tolerance and justice are traits most of us aspire to or at least admire.

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By *B9 QueenWoman
over a year ago

Over the rainbow, under the bridge

Are people forgetting Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki?

Sometimes terrible things are done for what some may believe is the greater good.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

No one is born hating another person for the colour of there skin, background or religion. People learn to hate, they can be taught to love, as love comes more naturally to the human heart than it's opposite.

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By *igSuki81Man
over a year ago

Retirement Village

"....one mans terrorist is anothers freedom fighter..."

This says it all IMO. History has a funny way of presenting people.

Whatever he did and achieved, peacefull or not he wasn't strong enough to see it through. The ANC today is a ridiculous joke and SA has swung from being white rule / others oppressed to black rule / others oppressed

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

life lived under apartheid taught him how to win the fight.

27 years on robben island taught him how to win the peace.

aknowledge that he was as flawed as other men, but celebrate the achievements of an extrordinary human being.

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By *aisy100Woman
over a year ago

wakefield

Ive been reading up on his past, he signed it off that no white man could ever be president of South Africa.... that surley is racist?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Ive been reading up on his past, he signed it off that no white man could ever be president of South Africa.... that surley is racist?"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Ive been reading up on his past, he signed it off that no white man could ever be president of South Africa.... that surley is racist?"

thats 10 words out of how many ?

Its easy to give a partial quote without setting the context.

so i would ask is it not just a pragmatic view of the south african political landscape.

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By *igSuki81Man
over a year ago

Retirement Village

"Ive been reading up on his past, he signed it off that no white man could ever be president of South Africa.... that surley is racist?"

Can be considered racist yes or maybe the evolution of hate?

Since they were oppressed by white people for a considerable amount of time maybe this was a continuation of that hate for them.

I'd like to think that today were he alive he wouldn't sign such an order but i'm fairly confident there are people in the ANC that would preach such hate still and wouldn't accept a white person in a high profile/power position.

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By *ust_for_laughsCouple
over a year ago

Hinckley

"Ive been reading up on his past, he signed it off that no white man could ever be president of South Africa.... that surley is racist?"

Where did he sign that off? There's a white woman currently running high in SA politics who could, theoretically (though it's unlikely), be voted president.

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By *aisy100Woman
over a year ago

wakefield

"Ive been reading up on his past, he signed it off that no white man could ever be president of South Africa.... that surley is racist?

Where did he sign that off? There's a white woman currently running high in SA politics who could, theoretically (though it's unlikely), be voted president."

I dont exactly where he was when he signed it sorry

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Think of all the people that have fought back to gain equal rights as their oppressors. Or simply tried to survive against a murderous system.

Some of these turned into a battle for power and became something different in the end...

I personally think, to mention Nelson in the same sentence as Gerry Adams iS a bad mistake...these Guys are not the same...and cannot be measured by the same moral rule.

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By *ust_for_laughsCouple
over a year ago

Hinckley

"Ive been reading up on his past, he signed it off that no white man could ever be president of South Africa.... that surley is racist?

Where did he sign that off? There's a white woman currently running high in SA politics who could, theoretically (though it's unlikely), be voted president.

I dont exactly where he was when he signed it sorry"

I meant, where is the evidence? I've looked but can't find it!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Ive been reading up on his past, he signed it off that no white man could ever be president of South Africa.... that surley is racist?

Can be considered racist yes or maybe the evolution of hate?

Since they were oppressed by white people for a considerable amount of time maybe this was a continuation of that hate for them.

the problem with 'white man' in the past is they couldn't just go and live with people they had to take over, they did it with America, Australia, India, South Africa, landed there and forced our ways of living on the natives, and we moan about immigrants coming over and taking a few houses and jobs

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By *aisy100Woman
over a year ago

wakefield

"Ive been reading up on his past, he signed it off that no white man could ever be president of South Africa.... that surley is racist?

thats 10 words out of how many ?

Its easy to give a partial quote without setting the context.

so i would ask is it not just a pragmatic view of the south african political landscape."

10 words but its what he did at that time, no its not a full picture either..... there was alot worse!!!

But apparently he turned out good after all those years in prison, chuff me he even made president

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By *aisy100Woman
over a year ago

wakefield

"Ive been reading up on his past, he signed it off that no white man could ever be president of South Africa.... that surley is racist?

Where did he sign that off? There's a white woman currently running high in SA politics who could, theoretically (though it's unlikely), be voted president.

I dont exactly where he was when he signed it sorry

I meant, where is the evidence? I've looked but can't find it!"

I suppose its like all the other "evidence" it was on some website I came accross.

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By *aisy100Woman
over a year ago

wakefield

"Ive been reading up on his past, he signed it off that no white man could ever be president of South Africa.... that surley is racist?

Can be considered racist yes or maybe the evolution of hate?

Since they were oppressed by white people for a considerable amount of time maybe this was a continuation of that hate for them.

Can you imagine how people would react if a modern day Nelson was to start doing what he did all those years ago?

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By *ust_for_laughsCouple
over a year ago

Hinckley

"Ive been reading up on his past, he signed it off that no white man could ever be president of South Africa.... that surley is racist?

Where did he sign that off? There's a white woman currently running high in SA politics who could, theoretically (though it's unlikely), be voted president.

I dont exactly where he was when he signed it sorry

I meant, where is the evidence? I've looked but can't find it!

I suppose its like all the other "evidence" it was on some website I came accross."

So it may not be true but it was enough to post that he was possibly racist?

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By *ust_for_laughsCouple
over a year ago

Hinckley

"Ive been reading up on his past, he signed it off that no white man could ever be president of South Africa.... that surley is racist?

Can be considered racist yes or maybe the evolution of hate?

Since they were oppressed by white people for a considerable amount of time maybe this was a continuation of that hate for them.

Can you imagine how people would react if a modern day Nelson was to start doing what he did all those years ago?"

You don't think for a minute that Western Governments sanction 'terrorism' where it suits their needs? One only needs to look at Syria for a thoroughly modern example.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Ive been reading up on his past, he signed it off that no white man could ever be president of South Africa.... that surley is racist?

Where did he sign that off? There's a white woman currently running high in SA politics who could, theoretically (though it's unlikely), be voted president.

I dont exactly where he was when he signed it sorry

I meant, where is the evidence? I've looked but can't find it!

I suppose its like all the other "evidence" it was on some website I came accross."

what is this website you came across that provides "evidence" , and what is it evidence of ?

I can tell you there is nothing in the S.A. constitution to prevent anyone of any race creed or colour from becoming president.

its shameful to suggest otherwise.

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By *aisy100Woman
over a year ago

wakefield

"Ive been reading up on his past, he signed it off that no white man could ever be president of South Africa.... that surley is racist?

Where did he sign that off? There's a white woman currently running high in SA politics who could, theoretically (though it's unlikely), be voted president.

I dont exactly where he was when he signed it sorry

I meant, where is the evidence? I've looked but can't find it!

I suppose its like all the other "evidence" it was on some website I came accross.

So it may not be true but it was enough to post that he was possibly racist? "

Oh get off your high horse will ya, I posted something that I read on the internet, you asked for evidence and all I was meaning by "evidence" is that who knows what we have all read or seen about him is true, after all the internet and newspapers never publish lies do they?

Oh and for the record if someone regardless of their colour says that another person cant run for president because of the colour of their skin...., is a racist ( wether he actually did or not)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Ive been reading up on his past, he signed it off that no white man could ever be president of South Africa.... that surley is racist?

Where did he sign that off? There's a white woman currently running high in SA politics who could, theoretically (though it's unlikely), be voted president.

I dont exactly where he was when he signed it sorry

I meant, where is the evidence? I've looked but can't find it!

I suppose its like all the other "evidence" it was on some website I came accross.

So it may not be true but it was enough to post that he was possibly racist?

Oh and for the record if someone regardless of their colour says that another person cant run for president because of the colour of their skin...., is a racist ( wether he actually did or not)"

so hes a racist wether he said it or not !!!

Go have a wee think about that.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Ive been reading up on his past, he signed it off that no white man could ever be president of South Africa.... that surley is racist?

Where did he sign that off? There's a white woman currently running high in SA politics who could, theoretically (though it's unlikely), be voted president.

I dont exactly where he was when he signed it sorry

I meant, where is the evidence? I've looked but can't find it!

I suppose its like all the other "evidence" it was on some website I came accross.

So it may not be true but it was enough to post that he was possibly racist?

Oh and for the record if someone regardless of their colour says that another person cant run for president because of the colour of their skin...., is a racist ( wether he actually did or not)"

she's got a point, even if she did come up with some evidence who's to say the evidence is real on here?

Half the stuff we know about him could be a bag of shite for all we know, which bits do you chose to believe is factual and which is made up?

personally if it's on a internet site or in the papers I take it with a pinch of salt

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Ive been reading up on his past, he signed it off that no white man could ever be president of South Africa.... that surley is racist?

Where did he sign that off? There's a white woman currently running high in SA politics who could, theoretically (though it's unlikely), be voted president.

I dont exactly where he was when he signed it sorry

I meant, where is the evidence? I've looked but can't find it!

I suppose its like all the other "evidence" it was on some website I came accross.

So it may not be true but it was enough to post that he was possibly racist?

Oh and for the record if someone regardless of their colour says that another person cant run for president because of the colour of their skin...., is a racist ( wether he actually did or not)"

It's sensible that you view the Internet and newspapers as being potentially unreliable sources of information. With that knowledge, therefore, it may be an idea to take greater care when sharing information, particularly when it's origins are uncertain and the content likely to offensive..even if it suits your preconceptions.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I quite like dark chocolate cookie's well I also really like white chocolate cookies... I really like cookies: )

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Ive been reading up on his past, he signed it off that no white man could ever be president of South Africa.... that surley is racist?

Where did he sign that off? There's a white woman currently running high in SA politics who could, theoretically (though it's unlikely), be voted president.

I dont exactly where he was when he signed it sorry

I meant, where is the evidence? I've looked but can't find it!

I suppose its like all the other "evidence" it was on some website I came accross.

So it may not be true but it was enough to post that he was possibly racist?

Oh and for the record if someone regardless of their colour says that another person cant run for president because of the colour of their skin...., is a racist ( wether he actually did or not)

she's got a point, even if she did come up with some evidence who's to say the evidence is real on here?

Half the stuff we know about him could be a bag of shite for all we know, which bits do you chose to believe is factual and which is made up?

personally if it's on a internet site or in the papers I take it with a pinch of salt "

Thing is, much of what has been argued thus far in this thread, has been agreed upon unanimously..the question, and where people are divided is simply on whether the end justified the means... Whether he was a terrorist or whether he fought for freedom in a society who collectively viewed his kind as less than human and deserving of the brutality they experienced.

Misinformation adds nothing of value to a debate.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

Oh and for the record if someone regardless of their colour says that another person cant run for president because of the colour of their skin...., is a racist ( wether he actually did or not)"

sometimes one just scratches ones head and ponders the 'logic' of others...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

As usual with these things they go off tangent. The guy is dead did good and bad through his life, we all see things differently just need to look at whole picture.

For everyone who says there are justfiable casuaulties, I would say

"would you say that if it was your son/daughter wife mother" and that is to both sides of the argument.

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By *aisy100Woman
over a year ago

wakefield

"Ive been reading up on his past, he signed it off that no white man could ever be president of South Africa.... that surley is racist?

Where did he sign that off? There's a white woman currently running high in SA politics who could, theoretically (though it's unlikely), be voted president.

I dont exactly where he was when he signed it sorry

I meant, where is the evidence? I've looked but can't find it!

I suppose its like all the other "evidence" it was on some website I came accross.

So it may not be true but it was enough to post that he was possibly racist?

Oh and for the record if someone regardless of their colour says that another person cant run for president because of the colour of their skin...., is a racist ( wether he actually did or not)

so hes a racist wether he said it or not !!!

Go have a wee think about that."

That isnt what I meant, what I meant was did he actually say it? Just because its on the internet doesnt mean its true.

Anyway I went on my search for the evidence and theres a few, look on youtube at a racist song they sing.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

For everyone who says there are justfiable casuaulties, I would say

"would you say that if it was your son/daughter wife mother" and that is to both sides of the argument.

if someone came into my home and treat my family as second class citizens I would fight back too, violently if need be

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By *aisy100Woman
over a year ago

wakefield

"Ive been reading up on his past, he signed it off that no white man could ever be president of South Africa.... that surley is racist?

Where did he sign that off? There's a white woman currently running high in SA politics who could, theoretically (though it's unlikely), be voted president.

I dont exactly where he was when he signed it sorry

I meant, where is the evidence? I've looked but can't find it!

I suppose its like all the other "evidence" it was on some website I came accross.

So it may not be true but it was enough to post that he was possibly racist?

Oh and for the record if someone regardless of their colour says that another person cant run for president because of the colour of their skin...., is a racist ( wether he actually did or not)

But thats just it I didnt have any preconceptions as I knew little about him, my mistake I guess was I should have just trusted what ive read on Fab forums about him rather than the other web pages ive come accross

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Ive been reading up on his past, he signed it off that no white man could ever be president of South Africa.... that surley is racist?

Where did he sign that off? There's a white woman currently running high in SA politics who could, theoretically (though it's unlikely), be voted president.

I dont exactly where he was when he signed it sorry

I meant, where is the evidence? I've looked but can't find it!

I suppose its like all the other "evidence" it was on some website I came accross.

So it may not be true but it was enough to post that he was possibly racist?

Oh and for the record if someone regardless of their colour says that another person cant run for president because of the colour of their skin...., is a racist ( wether he actually did or not)

so hes a racist wether he said it or not !!!

Go have a wee think about that.

That isnt what I meant, what I meant was did he actually say it? Just because its on the internet doesnt mean its true.

Anyway I went on my search for the evidence and theres a few, look on youtube at a racist song they sing."

lets stick with your reading a quote attributed to mandela for a moment.

i have been trying to find anything remotely close to it, and all i can find is an interview from after he stepped down as president where he is asked if he thinks there can be a white president again, mandelas response was that he didnt think so,that the politics of the time and the make up of the S.A. population would probably prevent it. And as i said in a previous post you need to know context beford repeating quotes.

as for racists songs on youtube, im willing to take your word for it. After all there are racists almost everywhere.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

don't ever trust what you read on here

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We have short memories, close to home we have gerry adams, lets stop being PC and wiping it under the carpet. These people at a minimum incited poeople to kill other innocents.

I would never wish anyone dead but will not mourn his passing.

I don’t think people have short memories I think the people mourning Mandela’s death have a complete picture of the man rather than just a biased limited picture of the man.

Very well put.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We have short memories, close to home we have gerry adams, lets stop being PC and wiping it under the carpet. These people at a minimum incited poeople to kill other innocents.

I would never wish anyone dead but will not mourn his passing."

As long as you put it into context by adding that his judges were those nice kind racists who ran south Africa at the time. Hardly a right and proper judge and jury

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By *ex.IncCouple
over a year ago

Castleford

Bit heated in here...anyone for a shag?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We have short memories, close to home we have gerry adams, lets stop being PC and wiping it under the carpet. These people at a minimum incited poeople to kill other innocents.

I would never wish anyone dead but will not mourn his passing.

As long as you put it into context by adding that his judges were those nice kind racists who ran south Africa at the time. Hardly a right and proper judge and jury "

and ironic that his legal career had resulted in him being on friendly terms with many of them. You couldnt make it up.

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By *ust_for_laughsCouple
over a year ago

Hinckley

"Ive been reading up on his past, he signed it off that no white man could ever be president of South Africa.... that surley is racist?

Where did he sign that off? There's a white woman currently running high in SA politics who could, theoretically (though it's unlikely), be voted president.

I dont exactly where he was when he signed it sorry

I meant, where is the evidence? I've looked but can't find it!

I suppose its like all the other "evidence" it was on some website I came accross.

So it may not be true but it was enough to post that he was possibly racist?

Oh and for the record if someone regardless of their colour says that another person cant run for president because of the colour of their skin...., is a racist ( wether he actually did or not)"

So I ask for some form of evidence and I'm on my high horse?

A lot of what you read in newspapers and websites isn't true, no but if you're 'reading up on his past', that would suggest research and if you research, you cross-reference against other sources before claiming that someone said something!

Would you have been so bothered if no one had questioned what you posted and continued to happily agree with it ?

I'll get off my high horse now

Nevermind though, similarly to the ghosts thread yesterday, it's been a fairly sturdy debate without the usual bickering and bigots that these threads usually unearth from the woodwork.

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By *aisy100Woman
over a year ago

wakefield

"Ive been reading up on his past, he signed it off that no white man could ever be president of South Africa.... that surley is racist?

Where did he sign that off? There's a white woman currently running high in SA politics who could, theoretically (though it's unlikely), be voted president.

I dont exactly where he was when he signed it sorry

I meant, where is the evidence? I've looked but can't find it!

I suppose its like all the other "evidence" it was on some website I came accross.

So it may not be true but it was enough to post that he was possibly racist?

Oh and for the record if someone regardless of their colour says that another person cant run for president because of the colour of their skin...., is a racist ( wether he actually did or not)

so hes a racist wether he said it or not !!!

Go have a wee think about that.

That isnt what I meant, what I meant was did he actually say it? Just because its on the internet doesnt mean its true.

Anyway I went on my search for the evidence and theres a few, look on youtube at a racist song they sing.

lets stick with your reading a quote attributed to mandela for a moment.

as for racists songs on youtube, im willing to take your word for it. After all there are racists almost everywhere."

Hes the one at the front

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

We have short memories, close to home we have gerry adams, lets stop being PC and wiping it under the carpet. These people at a minimum incited poeople to kill other innocents.

I would never wish anyone dead but will not mourn his passing.

As long as you put it into context by adding that his judges were those nice kind racists who ran south Africa at the time. Hardly a right and proper judge and jury "

What have judges got to do with it, no one is disputing anything including Nelson himself

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"What have judges got to do with it, no one is disputing anything including Nelson himself"

Whatever facts there may have been at the beginning the discussions seem to have now entered the realms of fairytales and bullshit.

Some bizarre statements.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"As usual with these things they go off tangent. The guy is dead did good and bad through his life, we all see things differently just need to look at whole picture.

For everyone who says there are justfiable casuaulties, I would say

"would you say that if it was your son/daughter wife mother" and that is to both sides of the argument.

If I was explicitly or tacitly supportive of a regime/culture that violently oppressed a group of people, enjoying my relatively privileged status while ignoring or advocating the brutality... I would consider that I'd at least aided and abetted a crime against humanity. If there was a backlash against the oppressors, there would be no surprise.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Ive been reading up on his past, he signed it off that no white man could ever be president of South Africa.... that surley is racist?

Where did he sign that off? There's a white woman currently running high in SA politics who could, theoretically (though it's unlikely), be voted president.

I dont exactly where he was when he signed it sorry

I meant, where is the evidence? I've looked but can't find it!

I suppose its like all the other "evidence" it was on some website I came accross.

So it may not be true but it was enough to post that he was possibly racist?

Oh and for the record if someone regardless of their colour says that another person cant run for president because of the colour of their skin...., is a racist ( wether he actually did or not)

so hes a racist wether he said it or not !!!

Go have a wee think about that.

That isnt what I meant, what I meant was did he actually say it? Just because its on the internet doesnt mean its true.

Anyway I went on my search for the evidence and theres a few, look on youtube at a racist song they sing.

lets stick with your reading a quote attributed to mandela for a moment.

as for racists songs on youtube, im willing to take your word for it. After all there are racists almost everywhere.

Hes the one at the front"

ah you are reffering to the one at a funeral where former members of mk (anc direct action group) sang their anthem.

little bit of info on this "ama bhulu" doesnt translate as white it is in fact boer, this is used by people with an agenda who go on the premise that the boers were white.

however take into account that the original mk had more whites than any other race and that there ars whites singing at the funeral, puts another slant to it.

again look into context. Also look into the motives of those who only want the public to be partly aware.

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By *iggamanMan
over a year ago

London

surprised admin hasn't closed this thread already by now

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"surprised admin hasn't closed this thread already by now

Why should they? It's been interesting, people are allowed different perspectives albeit some perspectives are based mostly on ignorance or exceedingly narrow.

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By *hris n AnnaCouple
over a year ago

edinburghish

We have short memories, close to home we have gerry adams, lets stop being PC and wiping it under the carpet. These people at a minimum incited poeople to kill other innocents.

I would never wish anyone dead but will not mourn his passing.

Finally a like minded soul. Good man, and well said."

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By *hris n AnnaCouple
over a year ago

edinburghish

We have short memories, close to home we have gerry adams, lets stop being PC and wiping it under the carpet. These people at a minimum incited poeople to kill other innocents.

I would never wish anyone dead but will not mourn his passing.

Finally a like minded soul. Good man, and well said."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Bit heated in here...anyone for a shag?

Lovely profile by the way

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"surprised admin hasn't closed this thread already by now

im not, i think its good to have open debate and challenge ideas that are a result of either prejudice or misinformation.

and if reading this thread inspires anyone to go and learn more about the topic then its a good thing as well.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"surprised admin hasn't closed this thread already by now

im not, i think its good to have open debate and challenge ideas that are a result of either prejudice or misinformation.

and if reading this thread inspires anyone to go and learn more about the topic then its a good thing as well."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm not going to dignify this thread with a response ...you just did!

Oh no I didn't....

Oh yes you did!! Panto season has begun

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By *ust_for_laughsCouple
over a year ago

Hinckley

"surprised admin hasn't closed this thread already by now

im not, i think its good to have open debate and challenge ideas that are a result of either prejudice or misinformation.

and if reading this thread inspires anyone to go and learn more about the topic then its a good thing as well."

Well said that man...two days on the trot that the prominent voice of reason on a thread has been a Jock, what's the world coming to?

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

as for racists songs on youtube, im willing to take your word for it. After all there are racists almost everywhere.

Hes the one at the front"

Racism... hmmm interesting how this is viewed now. The theories of racism are about who has the power, the real power. That is the economic, political and social power. I haven't seen these racist songs but if in the context of being oppressed and not being able to address that legally I probably wouldn't view it as racist.

For a very long time the hymn Nkosi Sikelel iAfrika was sung by the oppressed and they were punished for singing a hymn that says "God Bless Africa".

Context, power, global thinking and movement.

I don't deny racism exists among black people - I have experienced it and challenged it. I just find it really odd to throw that term and accusation of racism with Mandela's name.

No one who holds the power likes to hand that over. If Mandela had not embarked on peace and reconciliation but just thrown the whole racist Afrikaans regime into prison on Robben Island you could view him as being racist.

Redressing balance takes time. Just because the government is now black does not mean that over 100 years of power has changed hands. Look at where the wealth is and how people continue to live. Those with wealth and power are really very reluctant to share that.

As for those peace loving farmers, how did they come by the land for their farms?

Watch 28 Up South Africa on ITV on catch-up. It makes interesting viewing, especially listening to them at age 7 taught to hate black people. Look at their language and behaviour after apartheid. There is a lot to do but Mandela acted as a catalyst for change and a full stop on that period of legal hate.

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By *easing_twoCouple
over a year ago

Bristol, Thornbury

When you judge someone you don't define them you define yourself.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

as for racists songs on youtube, im willing to take your word for it. After all there are racists almost everywhere.

Hes the one at the front

For a very long time the hymn Nkosi Sikelel iAfrika was sung by the oppressed and they were punished for singing a hymn that says "God Bless Africa".

Context, power, global thinking and movement.

I don't deny racism exists among black people - I have experienced it and challenged it. I just find it really odd to throw that term and accusation of racism with Mandela's name.

As for those peace loving farmers, how did they come by the land for their farms?

Indeed. I know South Africans who were taught in church that black people had no souls.

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

"surprised admin hasn't closed this thread already by now

No rules have been broken and the forum is already fairly well censored. As long as people are debating in an adult manner I don't have a problem with a thread like this. When they get personal and just start making stuff up, present it as fact and get huffy that they are challenged at that and start sending abusive messages it's a different matter.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"surprised admin hasn't closed this thread already by now

im not, i think its good to have open debate and challenge ideas that are a result of either prejudice or misinformation.

and if reading this thread inspires anyone to go and learn more about the topic then its a good thing as well.

Well said that man...two days on the trot that the prominent voice of reason on a thread has been a Jock, what's the world coming to?

less of the jock nonsense or you will find your guitar in an uncomfortable position

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"When you judge someone you don't define them you define yourself. "

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

as for racists songs on youtube, im willing to take your word for it. After all there are racists almost everywhere.

Hes the one at the front

For a very long time the hymn Nkosi Sikelel iAfrika was sung by the oppressed and they were punished for singing a hymn that says "God Bless Africa".

Context, power, global thinking and movement.

I don't deny racism exists among black people - I have experienced it and challenged it. I just find it really odd to throw that term and accusation of racism with Mandela's name.

As for those peace loving farmers, how did they come by the land for their farms?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"A terrorist who would be the figurehead of a movement to end Apartheid, and who would later bring democracy and social reforms to a beleaguered nation.

I think I'll go along with the depth of feeling in South Africa itself as opposed to us in our cosy little homes in the UK.

Possibly the best response to this thread, my feelings exactly.

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By *ust_for_laughsCouple
over a year ago

Hinckley

"surprised admin hasn't closed this thread already by now

im not, i think its good to have open debate and challenge ideas that are a result of either prejudice or misinformation.

and if reading this thread inspires anyone to go and learn more about the topic then its a good thing as well.

Well said that man...two days on the trot that the prominent voice of reason on a thread has been a Jock, what's the world coming to?

less of the jock nonsense or you will find your guitar in an uncomfortable position

What?...:D

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

What magic did you perform on this thread? It has resurrected with space.

Whatever anyone may think about Mandela he will be remembered.

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