FabSwingers.com forum: international tensions

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I noticed that not only are we being tested by the spanish over gibraltar with tension rising over the way spain are in effect trying to bully the gibraltans.

Now we have the argentinas kicking off having passed new laws threatening indivudals and businesses with big jail terms and fines for in effect exploring the area for oil.

Now as i see it and others may disagree i think its wrong that any nation whether it be us or anyone else still have areas classed as extended colonies.

My concern in lets say for example things escalate to point of more than sabre rattling by spain and argies can we realistically get involved in long drawn out military dispute due to armed forces cutbacks.

I do not believe it will come to it but way its going i can see an escalation.

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

As earth resources lessen, there will inevitably be tensions caused by need or greed. Oil is the biggie and the Falklands are a gateway to the Antartic for the UK and Gibraltar is the gateway to the Med. As other countries see our ability to defend our interests abroad reduce then bit by bit, those interests will be challenged and one day, lost.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Both strategic locations, and a lot of Brits lost their lives fighting in the Falklands to protect British interests there, it would be a real kick in the teeth for the families of those who died just to hand it over the the Argentines.

At the end of the people of both locations see themselves has British

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Hard to say what will happen.

Though it wouldn't be much of a controversial point to say the UK is in relative decline in terms of world standing. As its diplomatic and military clout wanes I wouldn't be surprised if some rising nation took some potshots.

Once upon a time Argentina was a rather wealthy country. It is in the state it is in now many years after a crippling recession.

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By *thwalescplCouple
over a year ago

brecon

Of more concern should be the situation in the South China Sea, with the Chinese setting up a sort of "no fly" zone over some piddling little islands that both they, and the Japanese, claim ownership of.... all because there is oil and gas near there.

South Korea and Japan are now flouting this order.... but only because they have top cover from the Yanks, who decided to join in on some military "exercises" in the region.

The Chinese have never done well where this sort of "nose thumbing" against them goes on, they may well decide to ramp this up, they have already threatened a "military response" if aircraft refuse to identify themselves whilst flying in this "protection zone".

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Doomed, we are all Doomed

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By *izzy RascallMan
over a year ago

Cardiff

Give GIB back to Spain. Theres no reason to keep it and call it British anymore.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Give GIB back to Spain. Theres no reason to keep it and call it British anymore.

+1..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Give GIB back to Spain. Theres no reason to keep it and call it British anymore.

Put that man in government

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By *avantmaleMan
over a year ago

Havant

I really think its down to the people living in both locations to be given the choice of who they'd rather be governed by.

I think both Spain and the Argentinians

are trying to divert attention from their own economic woes and whilst I deplore the reduction in our forces ( another thread in itself ) I'm not sure either country could afford to mount a military operation either.

I think the UK has been 'punching above it's weight' since the war....oh god I've turned into me grandad. I could go on and on and on.....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Give GIB back to Spain. Theres no reason to keep it and call it British anymore.

easy to say when you haven't fought for it! and suffered hardship!

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By *izzy RascallMan
over a year ago

Cardiff

Spain owns a little bit of North Africa which goes mostly un noticed, so both of us are hypocrits to some extent.

I travel to just north of GIB every year and we already own a lot of South Spain, and the ex pats dont go to GIB as much anymore.

There is no reason to keep it, its not making shit loads in tax, costs us money to up keep, and its in someone elses country.

Its not difficult but cant be done over night - its just a gimmick really.

oooh look, UK shops, UK police. You can picture a british family taking selfies outside Morrisons whilst in Spain

Happy Days - as some would say

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

its all down to the residents on both gib and the falklands to decide, no one else.

personally i hope they stay British forever as they are part of our heritage although i understand they mean more to some than they do others.

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By *izzy RascallMan
over a year ago

Cardiff

"its all down to the residents on both gib and the falklands to decide, no one else.

personally i hope they stay British forever as they are part of our heritage although i understand they mean more to some than they do others.

Theres a big chunk of Greek marble in one of the London Museums, thats not ours either and Greece want that back too. However we refuse on that aswell.

Im shit at history but didnt we used to own loads of Africa and India?

Spain could do with GIB as they are pretty skint right now, the further you go from Malaga, the bigger the mess. The coast road is littered with skeletons of apartments that were never built to completion.

The longer we own GIB the longer the Spanish will poke us with a shitty stick

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Britain never owned loads of India and Africa no, it colonised them.

You could throw Scotland into the debate too! Maybe even Cornwall..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

“Nature has enough for our need but not for our greed”

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By *izzy RascallMan
over a year ago

Cardiff

"Britain never owned loads of India and Africa no, it colonised them.

You could throw Scotland into the debate too! Maybe even Cornwall.."

Ahh ok, thank you.

Is Jamaica a better example (I think), Im sure it celebrated an anniversary of its independance in recent years.

I just dont think we have any right to say 'Thats ours' when its not in UK waters or whatever you would say

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By *izzy RascallMan
over a year ago

Cardiff

Did we give Hong Kong back in the last 20 years or so?

If so, it can be done

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I just dont think we have any right to say 'Thats ours' when its not in UK waters or whatever you would say"

I don't think so either.. but perhaps the people living there do?

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By *otlovefun42Couple
over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"Give GIB back to Spain. Theres no reason to keep it and call it British anymore.

easy to say when you haven't fought for it! and suffered hardship!"

and very easy to say if you are not one of the 99% of Gibraltar residents that want to, and voted to, stay British.

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By *izzy RascallMan
over a year ago

Cardiff

"Give GIB back to Spain. Theres no reason to keep it and call it British anymore.

easy to say when you haven't fought for it! and suffered hardship!

and very easy to say if you are not one of the 99% of Gibraltar residents that want to, and voted to, stay British."

Its a small population really. Probably as many brits living in Marbs and Estepona as there are in GIB.

It should of been handed back a long time ago really.

While i appriciate there was a war over the Falklands I dont remember learning about the Battle of Gib - However, this (to me) still isnt enough for us to say its ours, just because we had a war over who owns it.

Based on that I would be a fool to say The Falklands are ours and thats that.

I have seen Spanish trawlers off The Welsh Coast, this isnt right either. Its a big bowl of spagetti/paella

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By *otlovefun42Couple
over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"Give GIB back to Spain. Theres no reason to keep it and call it British anymore.

easy to say when you haven't fought for it! and suffered hardship!

and very easy to say if you are not one of the 99% of Gibraltar residents that want to, and voted to, stay British.

Its a small population really. Probably as many brits living in Marbs and Estepona as there are in GIB.

It should of been handed back a long time ago really.

Based on that I would be a fool to say The Falklands are ours and thats that.

I have seen Spanish trawlers off The Welsh Coast, this isnt right either. Its a big bowl of spagetti/paella

Of course it's a small population, it's a small place, but it doesn't matter if there are 10 people or 10 million. When such an overwhelming majority vote to stay British, or even if they voted to go to Spain, their wishes have to be paramount.

The Estepona/Marbella parallel is a bit of a red herring. While there may be many Brits there, as there is in our area of Spain, the vast majority of the electorate are Spanish, and will always want to remain so.

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By *izzy RascallMan
over a year ago

Cardiff

If you were to ask The Spanish throughout Andalucia and the rest of Spain to vote what to do with GIB they are gonna vote to hand it back to Spain, just as the Brits there will vote to keep it British - As expected.

Yes the vast majority are Spanish, we are talking about Spain here we are just visitors there, even if you have residence there. That hasnt always been the case with GIB as it hasnt always been British, it was Spanish before, wasnt it? (remember Im shit at history).

I dont think he have a right to someone else's land in this day and age, its not even an island, its part of the main land.

Out of interest, what part of Spain is your area?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Who decides whose land it is if not the people that live there?

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By *izzy RascallMan
over a year ago

Cardiff

I'll take a guess at 'The Country that its within'

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Perhaps France should become part of Spain then?

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By *otlovefun42Couple
over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"I'll take a guess at 'The Country that its within'"

Firstly it's not within, it's on the edge of.

As for the history. Gibraltar was ceded (given) to Britain (along with Menorca)in perpetuity (forever) by the Spanish in the treaty of Utrecht in 1713. Interestingly part of the same treaty made Catalonia part of Spain and they (supported by a huge majority of the population of Catalonia) have wanted independence ever since. The Spanish have not only refused this for 300 years, but only the other day made it clear that they would veto an independent Scotland joining the EU on the grounds that it would give the Catalans (and Basques) encouragement for their own independence claims.

Bottom line is Spain has no claim on Gibraltar other than the fact it is on the Iberian peninsular. On that basis they may as well claim Portugal as well.

I will leave the subject of Ceuta and Melilla for another day.

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By *izzy RascallMan
over a year ago

Cardiff

No because Im thinking France is in France.

Where as GIB is in Spain and Cuelta (spelling) is in Morocco.

Uk gives GIB back and Spain gives Cuelta back.

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By *izzy RascallMan
over a year ago

Cardiff

"I'll take a guess at 'The Country that its within'

Firstly it's not within, it's on the edge of.

Bottom line is Spain has no claim on Gibraltar other than the fact it is on the Iberian peninsular. On that basis they may as well claim Portugal as well.

I will leave the subject of Ceuta and Melilla for another day."

Which edge, the 'Inside' or 'Outside'?

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By *inaTitzTV/TS
over a year ago

Titz Towers, North Notts

That hasnt always been the case with GIB as it hasnt always been British, it was Spanish before, wasnt it? (remember Im shit at history).

We took it in 1704. However, before us, it was Spanish. Before it was Spanish it belonged to the Moors, who originated in Morocco, prior to them, the Byzantines held it, before them, the Visigoths (who were originally Germanic), before them the Romans, before them the Carthaginians who originated in what is now Tunisia.

The land is constant, but the land lords change a bit.

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By *otlovefun42Couple
over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"If you were to ask The Spanish throughout Andalucia and the rest of Spain to vote what to do with GIB they are gonna vote to hand it back to Spain, just as the Brits there will vote to keep it British - As expected.

I dont think he have a right to someone else's land in this day and age, its not even an island, its part of the main land.

Out of interest, what part of Spain is your area?

And if you asked the French what to do with say the Channel Islands or maybe even the island of Britain itself they would say hand them over to France.

It is not Britain's or Spain's land. It is Gibraltar's land, and they choose to be part of Britain.

Our area of Spain is the border of Alicante and Murcia provinces. I (Mr) lived there permanently for 7 years and we still have a house there.

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By *otlovefun42Couple
over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

That hasnt always been the case with GIB as it hasnt always been British, it was Spanish before, wasnt it? (remember Im shit at history).

The land is constant, but the land lords change a bit.

This

I would add that certain sections of the Muslim world still regard Al Andalus which is not only modern Andalucia but most of southern and eastern Spain as Muslim land.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Did we give Hong Kong back in the last 20 years or so?

If so, it can be done"

You haven't thought this through have you.

Hong Kong was only leased form the Chinese and was always going to be given back.

Gib' and the Falklands are British and should only have their nationality changed if the residents of these islands decided that they want it to happen.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

That hasnt always been the case with GIB as it hasnt always been British, it was Spanish before, wasnt it? (remember Im shit at history).

The land is constant, but the land lords change a bit.

someone who knows there history in 1704 a force of anglo-dutch marines took gibraltar and held it against the franco-spanish forces which were far greater in number and held it for nine months as a result the royal marines cap badge displays gibraltar at the top underneath the royal crest and above the globe.

gibraltar is British as is the falklands and as such the only people who should decide are the residents themselves.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

That hasnt always been the case with GIB as it hasnt always been British, it was Spanish before, wasnt it? (remember Im shit at history).

The land is constant, but the land lords change a bit.

gibraltar is British as is the falklands and as such the only people who should decide are the residents themselves. "

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Did we give Hong Kong back in the last 20 years or so?

If so, it can be done

You haven't thought this through have you.

Hong Kong was only leased form the Chinese and was always going to be given back.

Gib' and the Falklands are British and should only have their nationality changed if the residents of these islands decided that they want it to happen."

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By *otlovefun42Couple
over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

[Removed by poster at 29/11/13 17:23:02]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 29/11/13 17:29:53]

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By *otlovefun42Couple
over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"I'll take a guess at 'The Country that its within'

Firstly it's not within, it's on the edge of.

Bottom line is Spain has no claim on Gibraltar other than the fact it is on the Iberian peninsular. On that basis they may as well claim Portugal as well.

I will leave the subject of Ceuta and Melilla for another day.

Which edge, the 'Inside' or 'Outside'?"

The one that got caught in the slips

Or, as there is no Spanish territory to the south it must be outside.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'll take a guess at 'The Country that its within'

Firstly it's not within, it's on the edge of.

Bottom line is Spain has no claim on Gibraltar other than the fact it is on the Iberian peninsular. On that basis they may as well claim Portugal as well.

I will leave the subject of Ceuta and Melilla for another day."

Don't think the Jocks want their independence really, if they did they would have fought harder hundreds of years ago....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The difficulty in argument for Spain and Argentina to reestablish sovereignty over former land is that the people of 'Gib' and the Falklands have become 'Britishised' so to speak...and are happy with the status quo.

On the other hand, the people of the Chagos islands have repeatedly expressed that they would like to be free to return to their homes after they were cunningly evicted from the islands by the British ruling class, who stole the land, gave it to the Americans, who have since built military bases on it......buuuut that doesn't seem to be happening anytime soon - despite winning court cases and having UN support.

*shrugs*

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Bomb the bastards

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Bomb the bastards "

That level of deep thinking may cause a migraine.

I'm not sure people living their have become so much 'Britishised' than that they are for the most part British.

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By *otlovefun42Couple
over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

Just another thought.

I could make a case (albeit a shaky one) that would give the French sovereignty over half of the USA.

Until 1803 all land to the west of the Mississippi was French and it was only because Bonaparte needed urgent cash (to fight the British) that he agreed to flog the lot to the fledgling American government. So if historical agreements (like Utrecht) are to be discarded then Hollande should be the president of California.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Bomb the bastards

That level of deep thinking may cause a migraine.

I'm not sure people living their have become so much 'Britishised' than that they are for the most part British."

Precisely..they no longer feel Spanish or Argentinian. They want to remain British.

However, the Chagossians do want their land back... That should be more of a priority for the British Govt...

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By *izzy RascallMan
over a year ago

Cardiff

"Did we give Hong Kong back in the last 20 years or so?

If so, it can be done

You haven't thought this through have you.

Hong Kong was only leased form the Chinese and was always going to be given back.

Gib' and the Falklands are British and should only have their nationality changed if the residents of these islands decided that they want it to happen."

The sentance at the top with the question mark

was a question, not a statement. So I dont feel I under thought anything really.

Thanks for the answer though, if your right, Britain did give Hong Kong back, even if it was always going to happen.

Maybe in time all lands will be returned.

I Dont want any more wars with any nations, including ours and I still sit un easy knowing we own a lump of land which is in Spain. The Spanish dont like it, The Brits of GIB are quite happy (bit obvious really) and most replies here seem to think we shouldnt give it back.

I still havent been convinced that we should, I can be persuaded though.

Im purposely ignoring the Falklands as I have even less of an idea why we have our feet in that one, I am old enough to remember the Falklands War though.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

All lands will be returned to who?

The British Empire?

Roman Empire?

Persia?

How far do you go back to judge the original owners?

If you do 'give them back' what are you proposing be done with the people that consider themselves British currently living there?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Did we give Hong Kong back in the last 20 years or so?

If so, it can be done

You haven't thought this through have you.

Hong Kong was only leased form the Chinese and was always going to be given back.

Gib' and the Falklands are British and should only have their nationality changed if the residents of these islands decided that they want it to happen.

The sentance at the top with the question mark

was a question, not a statement. So I dont feel I under thought anything really.

Thanks for the answer though, if your right, Britain did give Hong Kong back, even if it was always going to happen.

Maybe in time all lands will be returned.

I still havent been convinced that we should, I can be persuaded though.

Im purposely ignoring the Falklands as I have even less of an idea why we have our feet in that one, I am old enough to remember the Falklands War though."

it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, the matter is in the hands of the residents of gibraltar and the falklands.

we can discuss the matter till we are all blue in the face it is irrelevant as we cannot exact change only the residents of the islands concerned can.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Did we give Hong Kong back in the last 20 years or so?

If so, it can be done

You haven't thought this through have you.

Hong Kong was only leased form the Chinese and was always going to be given back.

Gib' and the Falklands are British and should only have their nationality changed if the residents of these islands decided that they want it to happen.

The sentance at the top with the question mark

was a question, not a statement. So I dont feel I under thought anything really.

Thanks for the answer though, if your right, Britain did give Hong Kong back, even if it was always going to happen.

Maybe in time all lands will be returned.

I still havent been convinced that we should, I can be persuaded though.

Im purposely ignoring the Falklands as I have even less of an idea why we have our feet in that one, I am old enough to remember the Falklands War though.

it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, the matter is in the hands of the residents of gibraltar and the falklands.

we can discuss the matter till we are all blue in the face it is irrelevant as we cannot exact change only the residents of the islands concerned can.

Yep, we should be more concerned with any people who do want their land back and don't consider themselves British... A la Chagos!

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By *riskynriskyCouple
over a year ago

Essex.

As stated earlier. The only reason Spain and Argentina are making a fuss is to take their populations minds off the fact that both governments are in a mess... Both countries have land taken from others and they have no intention of returning the land. Argentina has killed off over 90% of the indigenous population... That was done in the last 80 years... Gibraltar is of strategic importance aswell... Keep them British whilst the population wants to stay British...

On the Scottish issue from speaking to older Scottish people, they want it to stay as it is. The SNP are described as dreamers out to make a name for themselves. That is why they are waiting for 16 year olds to get the vote. Hoping they can dupe the youngsters into voting for independence...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Did we give Hong Kong back in the last 20 years or so?

If so, it can be done

You haven't thought this through have you.

Hong Kong was only leased form the Chinese and was always going to be given back.

Gib' and the Falklands are British and should only have their nationality changed if the residents of these islands decided that they want it to happen.

The sentance at the top with the question mark

was a question, not a statement. So I dont feel I under thought anything really.

Thanks for the answer though, if your right, Britain did give Hong Kong back, even if it was always going to happen.

Maybe in time all lands will be returned.

I still havent been convinced that we should, I can be persuaded though.

Im purposely ignoring the Falklands as I have even less of an idea why we have our feet in that one, I am old enough to remember the Falklands War though.

it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, the matter is in the hands of the residents of gibraltar and the falklands.

we can discuss the matter till we are all blue in the face it is irrelevant as we cannot exact change only the residents of the islands concerned can.

Yep, we should be more concerned with any people who do want their land back and don't consider themselves British... A la Chagos!"

agreed although we have owned it since the napoleonic wars who would you give it back to as the French were the first to settle on Diego Garcia and even banished lepers to the island before having a coconut plantation which they harvested using slave labour.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"“Nature has enough for our need but not for our greed”"

sober words and true

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Give GIB back to Spain. Theres no reason to keep it and call it British anymore.

easy to say when you haven't fought for it! and suffered hardship!"

Gibraltar wasn't fought for.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Give GIB back to Spain. Theres no reason to keep it and call it British anymore.

easy to say when you haven't fought for it! and suffered hardship!

Gibraltar wasn't fought for."

are you sure there was a nine month siege after the anglo - dutch marines captured it from franco-spanish forces in 1704.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Did we give Hong Kong back in the last 20 years or so?

If so, it can be done

You haven't thought this through have you.

Hong Kong was only leased form the Chinese and was always going to be given back.

Gib' and the Falklands are British and should only have their nationality changed if the residents of these islands decided that they want it to happen.

The sentance at the top with the question mark

was a question, not a statement. So I dont feel I under thought anything really.

Thanks for the answer though, if your right, Britain did give Hong Kong back, even if it was always going to happen.

Maybe in time all lands will be returned.

I still havent been convinced that we should, I can be persuaded though.

Im purposely ignoring the Falklands as I have even less of an idea why we have our feet in that one, I am old enough to remember the Falklands War though.

it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, the matter is in the hands of the residents of gibraltar and the falklands.

we can discuss the matter till we are all blue in the face it is irrelevant as we cannot exact change only the residents of the islands concerned can.

Yep, we should be more concerned with any people who do want their land back and don't consider themselves British... A la Chagos!

The most logical choice at the present time would be the people who lived there before 1963...when the evacuation first started. They or their descendents have been asking to be permitted to go back for years...but it won't happen.... India won't get its diamonds and the Argentinians won't get their islands. All states steal, all have their own rationalisations... and the world keeps turning.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Did we give Hong Kong back in the last 20 years or so?

If so, it can be done

You haven't thought this through have you.

Hong Kong was only leased form the Chinese and was always going to be given back.

Gib' and the Falklands are British and should only have their nationality changed if the residents of these islands decided that they want it to happen.

The sentance at the top with the question mark

was a question, not a statement. So I dont feel I under thought anything really.

Thanks for the answer though, if your right, Britain did give Hong Kong back, even if it was always going to happen.

Maybe in time all lands will be returned.

I still havent been convinced that we should, I can be persuaded though.

Im purposely ignoring the Falklands as I have even less of an idea why we have our feet in that one, I am old enough to remember the Falklands War though.

it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, the matter is in the hands of the residents of gibraltar and the falklands.

we can discuss the matter till we are all blue in the face it is irrelevant as we cannot exact change only the residents of the islands concerned can.

Yep, we should be more concerned with any people who do want their land back and don't consider themselves British... A la Chagos!

don't get me wrong i wasn't disagreeing with you regarding Diego Garcia and your suggestion makes sense as there was forced evictions.

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By *otlovefun42Couple
over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"As stated earlier. The only reason Spain and Argentina are making a fuss is to take their populations minds off the fact that both governments are in a mess... Both countries have land taken from others and they have no intention of returning the land. Argentina has killed off over 90% of the indigenous population... That was done in the last 80 years... Gibraltar is of strategic importance aswell... Keep them British whilst the population wants to stay British...