FabSwingers.com forum: How many lies does it take before you

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Was wondering how many people on here are going to vote?

And if so..why?

Does anyone honestly believe what Cameron, Brown, or Clegg etc say anymore? It amazes me when people say.."I was labour but now I'm going to vote con..or visa versa. None of these party leaders have any power, they have and always will be dictated to by the financial elite, it is they who create policy (whether foreign or domestic) and it is they who carve up and sell off all our resources and infrastructure..and it's always us..the fools that pay the price, how many times are we promised change is on it's way, better healthcare, better education, more jobs, more justice..REALLY!

I take it personal when someone pisses on my boots and tells me it's raining, and if people are still willing to lend an ear to these lying theiving, murdering bastards...then they deserve to lose their jobs, houses etc etc " those who can't hear must feel"

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By *aravancoupleMan
over a year ago

A Secret Hideaway In the caravan of love

We have never voted and never will because no matter who is in power we will be no better off

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

"We have never voted and never will because no matter who is in power we will be no better off

if you dont vote you cant moan about the state of the country!!

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By *oe_Steve_NWestCouple
over a year ago

Bolton

It's a difficult one as have to agree to some extent with the op but as a woman I feel it's important to vote as many women fought long and hard and many died so that we had the privilege of being able to vote. Z

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By *exeteraWoman
over a year ago

Bridgend

I'm a firm believer of you got to be in it to win it. Apathy breeds apathy, if you're not happy with the situation well do something to try and change it. Big oaks from little acorns grow.

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By *zMaleMan
over a year ago

penzance

"We have never voted and never will because no matter who is in power we will be no better off

if you dont vote you cant moan about the state of the country!!"

Hear Hear

I'm a true believer in that sentiment.

I know i won't be voting Labour cos I can't stand the thought of being Governed by prick that wasn't voted in.

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By *zMaleMan
over a year ago

penzance

oops meant to say another 4 yrs of.......

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Was wondering how many people on here are going to vote?

And if so..why?

I feel the same way Hungry. I'm desperately unhappy with New Labour. I feel they have no interest in governing for the ordinary person. They seem to be in the pockets of the big financial interests and looking for jobs with them when they leave government. They appear to have been operating Reaganomics (ie. pure capitalism -allowing powerful groups to screw the rest in the belief that it's the best way to increase the national wealth). Note the non-existant regulation of banks, financial services, utilities etc.

The credit crunch and the bank bailouts should have taught them a lesson but it appears they want to carry on as before.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'll happily admit a complete apathy about the whole thing. Irrespective of who is in power and no matter what they all claim they will do if they get into power, they all renage on every promise and do whatever they damn well please. Until there are honest politicians (is that an oxymoron in itself?) who do as they claim, I'm not going to bother.

Just my opinion - you each have your own

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By *uton_coupleCouple
over a year ago

luton

"Was wondering how many people on here are going to vote?

And if so..why?

you pretty much said it all

there will be comments on here like / you gota be in it to win it , or / its important to vote etc etc etc

but they are the gormless drones that vote in the self same party they voted out in years gone by

this time they will vote in the ones they voted out last time because of the cash for questions sleaze

what they dont realize is that it is the same GOVERMENT after the election as it was before it / but with a small shift of power

manchester united football team might take a few players off and put a few subtitutes on

but its still manchester united football team / just as the GOVERMENT is the same after the election as it was before it

its all sewn up like a box of kippers and just as your pissing on your boots , i am pissing into the wind trying to explain this to the .....

gota be in it to win it brigade

unless you have proportional representation 30 percent of the voters can all vote for a party without gaining ONE seat

i will not vote in case someone sees me coming out of the polling station and associates me with all the other twats that vote

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"We have never voted and never will because no matter who is in power we will be no better off

if you dont vote you cant moan about the state of the country!!"

I wanted to vote against going into an illegal war!

I wanted to vote against joining the EU

I wanted to vote against bailing out the banks

I wanted to vote on human rights for the victims not the offenders

I wanted to vote on how MP,s should of been punished for stealing our money

And I wanted to vote on the governments being made to be transparrent with their involvement in using torture tactics on it's own citizens...the list goes on & on,

Who are you supposed to vote for once you realise that they all bought & paid for by the elite "so called" lords and all of whom are either millionaires or billionaires, these are the same people who write legislation, do you honestly think that they create legislation for the benifit of the people?

Me thinks not..if 2 million people can march against the Iraq war, & a majority of the British people said NO to the war...Why did we still go ( only to find out that it was all a lie) We went to war because the elite behind Blair & Bush wanted it to happen!

Presidents & prime ministers don't answer to us, they answer to those who put them there..in other words Presidents & prime ministers arnt elected...there selected!

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Was wondering how many people on here are going to vote?

And if so..why?

domestic) and it is they who carve up and sell off

all our resources and infrastructure..and it's

always us..the fools that pay the price, how many

times are we promised change is on it's way,better healthcare, better education, more

jobs, more justice..REALLY!

must feel"

you pretty much said it all

there will be comments on here like / you gota be in it to win it , or / its important to vote etc etc etc

but they are the gormless drones that vote in the self same party they voted out in years gone by

this time they will vote in the ones they voted out last time because of the cash for questions

sleaze

what they dont realize is that it is the same GOVERMENT after the election as it was before it / but with a small shift of power

manchester united football team might take a few players off and put a few subtitutes on

but its still manchester united football team / just as the GOVERMENT is the same after the election as it was before it

its all sewn up like a box of kippers and just as your pissing on your boots , i am pissing into the wind trying to explain this to the .....

gota be in it to win it brigade

unless you have proportional representation 30 percent of the voters can all vote for a party without gaining ONE seat

i will not vote in case someone sees me coming

out of the polling station and associates me with

all the other twats that vote "

Perfectly put! And so refreshing to hear!

I also completly agree with the guy who

commented eariler!

But for those who still think that they have freedom of choice ( being able to vote for any of the above) either suffer from amnesia..or

stupidity..or both!

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"It's a difficult one as have to agree to some extent with the op but as a woman I feel it's important to vote as many women fought long and hard and many died so that we had the privilege of being able to vote. Z"

I agree it's important to vote for what you believe in, but who do you vote for when one of them is financed by a billionaire,another is financed by major arms dealers and the other is financed by the oil cartels.. What I'm trying to say is

that..none of them stand on their own two feet, they are held up by their puppet masters, for f@cks sake, they don't even write their own speeches, someone else writes it for them...I can't vote or believe in someone who allows others to put the words in their mouths.

As for women being able to vote, have a google of the Rockefellors, and the reason why they chose to champion womens right to vote....there's always a hidden agenda.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

im a reasonably new voter and i think that voting is a must , everyone here and in the public is talking about mp's expenses and how nothing ever changes , now me im not going into details and by no means want to offend anyone but having fought to give people the right to vote i think its one of the most important civic duties , you cant go moaning about your mp if you refused to vote and you cant change things other than through a democratc means , there are people out there who try to help you out ,we always just focus on the negatives here , as for illegal wars , hmm my opinion is that if war is declared there are no rules by definition , i will NEVER have any sympathy for anyone anywhere when war is declared other than for the folk i am with . yes there always casualities and thats hard but shit happens life is hard you deal with it and move on . so to sit here and talk about mp's expenses etc etc and how nothing is ever going change is slightly annoying to me people in this country in my opinion have no idea how good you got it so get out there vote then you can say what you like about the diddies running the country , srry rant over

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"im a reasonably new voter and i think that voting is a must , everyone here and in the public is talking about mp's expenses and how nothing ever changes , now me im not going into details and by no means want to offend anyone but having fought to give people the right to vote i think its one of the most important civic duties , you cant go moaning about your mp if you refused to vote and you cant change things other than through a democratc means , there are people out there who try to help you out ,we always just focus on the negatives here , as for illegal wars , hmm my opinion is that if war is declared there are no rules by definition , i will NEVER have any sympathy for anyone anywhere when war is declared other than for the folk i am with . yes there always casualities and thats hard but shit happens life is hard you deal with it and move on . so to sit here and talk about mp's expenses etc etc and how nothing is ever going change is slightly annoying to me people in this country in my opinion have no idea how good you got it so get out there vote then you can say what you like about the diddies running the country , srry rant over

Whilst I admire your sentiments I feel I have to pint out that your youthfulness comes across as slightly niave here. I used to think exactly the same way as you. Everyone with a vote MUST use it.

What changed in me?

For the best part of my late teens/twenties I knew nothing other than a Tory government, a government steeped in sleaze and nepotism, awash with fat cats feathering their own nests, and riddled with incomptent bureaucrats who couldn't organise a piss up in brewery. So I voted them out.

From my 30s to the present day I've known nothing other than a Labour government, a government steeped in sleaze and nepotism, awash with fat cats feathering their own nests, and riddled with incomptent bureaucrats who couldn't organise a piss up in brewery. So I'm going to vote them out too.

What's the moral of my story?

They're all incomptent wankers but I'm fucked if I'm going to let them take the piss out of me for too long. I'd rather a change of scenery than look at the same old landscape stealing my money all the fooking time!

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By *emmefataleWoman
over a year ago

dirtybigbadsgirlville

Whilst I admire your sentiments I feel I have to pint out that your youthfulness comes across as slightly niave here. I used to think exactly the same way as you. Everyone with a vote MUST use it.

What changed in me?

What's the moral of my story?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Wishy for Prime Minister!!!

Trust me - do NOT give me that power! I'd have sooooo many people cleaning the fookin streets as punishment for ripping us off that the highways and biways of the UK would shine like a new penny!

My pet hate are those who are given thousands of pounds as a fuck off for being incompetent. If I don't do my job properly my boss will sack me. End of.

And don't even get me started on public sector pensions!! grrrrr..

Wishy for PM?

Only if you dare!! lol

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By *emmefataleWoman
over a year ago

dirtybigbadsgirlville

"Wishy for Prime Minister!!!

Trust me - do NOT give me that power! I'd have sooooo many people cleaning the fookin streets as punishment for ripping us off that the highways and biways of the UK would shine like a new penny!

My pet hate are those who are given thousands of pounds as a fuck off for being incompetent. If I don't do my job properly my boss will sack me. End of.

And don't even get me started on public sector pensions!! grrrrr..

Wishy for PM?

Only if you dare!! lol

"
well sounds great to me......hehehehehehe

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By *oe_Steve_NWestCouple
over a year ago

Bolton

"Wishy for Prime Minister!!!

Trust me - do NOT give me that power! I'd have sooooo many people cleaning the fookin streets as punishment for ripping us off that the highways and biways of the UK would shine like a new penny!

My pet hate are those who are given thousands of pounds as a fuck off for being incompetent. If I don't do my job properly my boss will sack me. End of.

And don't even get me started on public sector pensions!! grrrrr..

Wishy for PM?

Only if you dare!! lol

well sounds great to me......hehehehehehe

Got to agree with Femme there - we could all do with someone with common sense and morals at the top but unfortunately that will never happen! Z

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

For a start I'd legalise prostitution and place them all in walk-in sex centres where anyone could go if they haven't had a bunk up for a day or two. This would drive kerb crawlers off the streets, eradicate pimps completely, lessen the burden on the police force in arresting/prosecuting working girls, pimps and clients, monitor and control the spread of STIs in the sex industry - and the girls could be taxed on their earnings and start a pension.

Seems a no brainer to me.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Then I'd erect huge boards at all the ports & airports saying "Britain is closed due to refurbishment."

I'd pass a law that states that any foreigner who commits a crime on UK soil will be deported immediately after sentencing. Along will ALL of their dependants, wife, kids, mother, father, brothers & sisters. The whole lot would go.

For UK citizens, I'd have the same rule, but instead of deportation it would be hard labour.

The onus is then on the families to ensure that each member plays by the rules.

Clever huh?

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By *umpkinMan
over a year ago

near the sounds of the wimborne quarter jack!

Liking your ideas Wishy!

In my neck of the woods, there`s zero support for Labour but the support for the "Cons" is very strong. There is a very good oppositional support for the Liberals but not enough to give the "Cons" a bloody nose. It`s a shame that the muppets who despite this are "Labour through and through" and still flush their vote down the lavvy by voting for their party instead of using it to better effect to help overturn the support for the Tories.

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By *zMaleMan
over a year ago

penzance

There is a saying, "A Goverment is only as strong as the opposition". I firmly believe this to be true. A Strong opposition makes for an even stronger Government.

At the moment every party is as wishywashy as each other and there is nothing to separate them.

But like broken sailor I do believe it is our CIVIL Duty to vote. I don't care who you vote for or your particular bent as it were.

Millions of our Fore Fathers gave their lives for us to be able to vote and continue a democracy. Would you prefer a Dictator ship ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

for democracy to fully operate everyone needs to vote. there no point in moanin there all a shower of shits if yor just goin to sit there and no shuffle down to the pollin station to have your say!!

many voices get a point across.

as for who to vote for i dont know to be honest cause they really do all seem to be run by the elite for the elite and more liars and pishtalkers than a bad nite on here!!

common sense seems to have left politics but its us the public that pay the price for it. no one wants to back the working man or woman .

the tories always loathed the working class gordon browns too concerned with middle england nick clegg well he really should sack his policy writers and grow some balls!!

but il still be there on polling day!! xx

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

In a true democracy you have the right not to vote. Forcing everyone to vote is not democratic but how do you get a true representation in parliament otherwise. Middle of the road politics doesn't have much support as middle of the road voters tend to not... er... vote!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Don’t do politics, but if you do feel the need to vote, the trick is to never tell people who your voting for, as it normally comes back to bite you on the bum and make you a laughing stock, after all its usually a bunch of lies that trick people into voting and you only need to look at history, no matter how bad our government is at any given time, they are always forgiven any voted in again, always crying for change but its always the same two parties that are voted in, don’t people learn?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

i wouldnt say im naieve politically after all it has a major bearing on my life what these idiots decide to say in their jobs . by voting i mean register something officially , if you dont trust or like or agree with any of the parties then spoil the vote , hell write an essay on the reasons why and hand it in at the polling station , will be classed as a spoilt ballot paper but someone will HAVE to read it . its your right that it must be read , god knows my mp has read enough shite from the past 2 years . i met here twice and both times we had discussions on this and other local issues , the impression i got was that she was just as dismayed with it all as i was but still believed that voting is important . i agree things have to change for example the house of lords is just a big jobs for the boys deal , having mr brown as an unelected pm with his buddies mandelson and the other unelected twats to me is wrong , the minute blair went should have been an election . ok i understand you dont vote for the person but the party but the people must have their say . i would replace the house of lords with a peoples panel or court or something similar to ratify the decisions made in parliament . in australia its compulsory to vote and i have to admire their system , the former colonies of this country are run so much beetr than we are these days and something has to change . look at singapore or india, they are so passionate about their politics over there and rightly so .

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Here, here!!

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By *uton_coupleCouple
over a year ago

luton

another thing to consider about the way goverment works in the uk is the system os OPPOSITION

its bloody ridiculous

no one can do anything right and there is no agreement, or team spirit , in anything that they do or say

imagine a marriedge that was run like that

that dinner you cooked yesterday was horrible , it was under cooked and you paid far too much for the ingridients , furthermore i think that you have pocketed some of the house keeping money and you have brought the reputation of the family into disrepute

what about you then , you were in charge of cutting the grass last week , and what did you do

you wasted money on buying a new electric mower when you knew full well we dont have a supply of electricity

you should have got a petrol one ,

then you went around with a pair of hand shears and chopped the hell out of it and now its completely ruined

you are a work shy useless bag of shit , and have wasted a fortune on equiptment that is useless , furthermore the lawn is so bad we have to now hang our heads in shame

GOVERMENT is a fucking joke

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

"Was wondering how many people on here are going to vote?

And if so..why?

Because regardless of the flaws in the current system... I'd sooner live in a country where I have the freedom to vote than in one where I don’t.

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

"i wouldnt say im naieve politically after all it has a major bearing on my life what these idiots decide to say in their jobs . by voting i mean register something officially , if you dont trust or like or agree with any of the parties then spoil the vote , hell write an essay on the reasons why and hand it in at the polling station , will be classed as a spoilt ballot paper but someone will HAVE to read it . its your right that it must be read , god knows my mp has read enough shite from the past 2 years . "

So some nobody of any importance reads your spoilt vote and that's it... it's just registered as a spoilt vote... no differently to those with smiley faces drawn on them.

If people are going to write an essay they should write it on an email and send it to their local MP or to Brown or to the person they want to be their MP or PM. Fuck it… copy it to all of them.

We have the right to vote for these people.

Tell the people who want your vote what you want, how you feel, what matters to you. If as many people wrote an email or letter as there are bitching about it at work, in the pub and on forums... then may be something might change.

Apathy is a very weak and vague message.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Don’t do politics, but if you do feel the need to vote, the trick is to never tell people who your voting for, as it normally comes back to bite you on the bum and make you a laughing stock, after all its usually a bunch of lies that trick people into voting and you only need to look at history, no matter how bad our government is at any given time, they are always forgiven any voted in again, always crying for change but its always the same two parties that are voted in, don’t people learn? "

I think since devolution has come in its not quite the same as it was , proportional representation and all that jazz , we have the snp running things here and im far far from a nationalist in fact idealogically i couldnt be further away from them , however what i will say say is , its refreshing to have them there must admit ok they havent stuck to everything they said they would do and why its taken so long for them to stick together a referendum is beyond me , sooner they ask sooner the whole thing is put to bed , of course this is just up here and what your saying about 2 parties is correct for the uk as a whole , we have a 2 party system here in everything but name but doesnt mean you shouldnt vote as iv said before . i was at sea when the snp were elected and had to find out on the phone , the russians and chinese were amazed at our system of things and having to explain devolution to them was like trying to explain quantum mechanics to a 5 year old lol

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

people out there who try to help you out ,we

always just focus on the negatives here , as for illegal wars , hmm my opinion is that if war is declared there are no rules by definition , i will NEVER have any sympathy for anyone anywhere when war is declared other than for the folk i am with . yes there always casualities and thats hard but shit happens life is hard you deal with it and move on . so to sit here and talk about mp's expenses etc etc and how nothing is ever going change is slightly annoying to me people in this country in my opinion have no idea

how good you got it so get out there vote then

you can say what you like about the diddies running the country , srry rant over

as for illegal wars , hmm my opinion is that if war is declared there are no rules by definition , i will NEVER have any sympathy for anyone anywhere when war is declared other than for the folk i am with . yes there always casualities and thats hard but shit happens life is hard you deal with it

Your lack of concern for the innocent victims who are always the ones who suffer the consequenses is scary!

No disrespect but you sound more like a mercenary than a solider. You seem happy to carry out your duties regardless of whether they are illegal or not.

And you say that you fought so that others can live in a democratic society...democracy is not something that you can export..democracy starts from within, & I'm pretty sure that the families of the 1.2 million Iraqis who died as a result of this illegal war would be more than happy for you to keep your democracy and return their loved ones.

Henry Kissenger once said..." "Military men are dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns for foreign policy."

Hate to say it, but your statement adds credence to Kissengers opinion.

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By *exeteraWoman
over a year ago

Bridgend

"Was wondering how many people on here are going to vote?

And if so..why?

domestic) and it is they who carve up and sell off

all our resources and infrastructure..and it's

always us..the fools that pay the price, how many

times are we promised change is on it's way,better healthcare, better education, more

jobs, more justice..REALLY!

must feel"

you pretty much said it all

there will be comments on here like / you gota be in it to win it , or / its important to vote etc etc etc

but they are the gormless drones that vote in the self same party they voted out in years gone by

this time they will vote in the ones they voted out last time because of the cash for questions

sleaze

what they dont realize is that it is the same GOVERMENT after the election as it was before it / but with a small shift of power

manchester united football team might take a few players off and put a few subtitutes on

but its still manchester united football team / just as the GOVERMENT is the same after the election as it was before it

its all sewn up like a box of kippers and just as your pissing on your boots , i am pissing into the wind trying to explain this to the .....

gota be in it to win it brigade

unless you have proportional representation 30 percent of the voters can all vote for a party without gaining ONE seat

i will not vote in case someone sees me coming

out of the polling station and associates me with

all the other twats that vote

Perfectly put! And so refreshing to hear!

I also completly agree with the guy who

commented eariler!

But for those who still think that they have freedom of choice ( being able to vote for any of the above) either suffer from amnesia..or

stupidity..or both!"

I'm neither stupid or suffer from amnesia and find your assumptions offensive. However, I'm a firm believer in not sitting on my arse and moaning about government when I can't be bothered to get off said arse and get myself down to the polling station to use my vote. I have however, got off my arse and made an effort to bring about change albeit at a local level.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

theres the difference you and others are willing to go and try to do your bit to change things without feelin the urge to be rude to other people because they dont agree!!

lets start our own political party then we have a leader wishy!! ( though might be better to get him back on the fags before he stands!!)!!

we probably have more a clue of issues at street level than half of the mps! xx

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"For a start I'd legalise prostitution and place them all in walk-in sex centres where anyone could go if they haven't had a bunk up for a day or two. This would drive kerb crawlers off the streets, eradicate pimps completely, lessen the burden on the police force in arresting/prosecuting working girls, pimps and clients, monitor and control the spread of STIs in the sex industry - and the girls could be taxed on their earnings and start a pension.

Seems a no brainer to me.

if they made it like amsterdam and legalised prostitution and canabis it would create more jobs and the country would make more money off taxes from it and acctually have some money to pay back come of the debts that they've got us into and the crime rate would also go down cos if everyone were stoned they wouldn't be bothered to commit crime and it would also cut out the drug dealers which offer stronger substances

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

you pretty much said it all

there will be comments on here like / you gota be in it to win it , or / its important to vote etc etc etc

but they are the gormless drones that vote in the self same party they voted out in years gone by

this time they will vote in the ones they voted out last time because of the cash for questions sleaze

what they dont realize is that it is the same GOVERMENT after the election as it was before it / but with a small shift of power

manchester united football team might take a few players off and put a few subtitutes on

but its still manchester united football team / just as the GOVERMENT is the same after the election as it was before it

its all sewn up like a box of kippers and just as your pissing on your boots , i am pissing into the wind trying to explain this to the .....

gota be in it to win it brigade

unless you have proportional representation 30 percent of the voters can all vote for a party without gaining ONE seat

i will not vote in case someone sees me coming out of the polling station and associates me with all the other twats that vote "

People with views like yours scare the shit out of me.

On the one hand I kind of hope you get what you disserve as your local MP... but then someone like you may be my neighbour and I have to suffer the consequences of the Government you allowed into power.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

people out there who try to help you out ,we

how good you got it so get out there vote then

you can say what you like about the diddies running the country , srry rant over

Your lack of concern for the innocent victims who are always the ones who suffer the consequenses is scary!

No disrespect but you sound more like a mercenary than a solider. You seem happy to carry out your duties regardless of whether they are illegal or not.

Henry Kissenger once said..." "Military men are dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns for foreign policy."

Hate to say it, but your statement adds credence to Kissengers opinion.

kissinger wasnt exactly s shineing becon of light himself , as for legal , if you go to war you go to war no quarter asked or given , as for these so called civilinas , dont even get me started no such things as civilians in war everyone takes sides wether its passive or direct , thats the nature of it . and to expect us to fight there with one hand tied is dumb to say the least , there no legalities in war , no one is there when somneone falls where is the court for these animals and cowrds who hide with the civilians ? where is the justice there when some kid barely out of his teens loses his leg or worse ? and half these things are done by women and children so called non combatants , ok they have no gun but they are far more dangerous in my opinion . im not a mercenary have no repsect for these people they fight only for money and to hell with everything else , no loyalty other than to themselves , its a dispicable trait .

we are not exporting our western values under saddam are you honestly saying these people had a decent life ? 1.2 mill is regrettable but far far more ided in much more horrible circumstances under him , there were no trials no judiciary system just the knock on the door at night and thats the end of you . is that really better than at least trying to give them a shot , when we leave they can do what they like ill have no regrets and if they chose to go back to what they had then thats their choice but i certainly wont be rushing back to help them out . im of the opnion that voting should be a basic human right that should be applicable to all . ohh and a wee note here can see this getting out of hand im not being personal about it i enjoy a goood debate its healthy and i by no means trying to provoke anyone .

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

" .... And you say that you fought so that others can live in a democratic society...democracy is not something that you can export..democracy starts from within, & I'm pretty sure that the families of the 1.2 million Iraqis who died as a result of this illegal war would be more than happy for you to keep your democracy and return their loved ones. "

Really?

1978-1979

Up to 7,000 Iraqi communists were executed by orders of the Ba'athist regime.

1982

The specific atrocity for which Saddam was hanged: 148 Shias were murdered in the village of Dujail.

1984

Up to 4,000 political prisoners in Abu Ghraib jail were tortured and killed. Saddam's favoured methods of torture included cutting off genitalia, gouging out eyes and acid baths.

1980-1988

Some 1.7m died on both sides during the Iran-Iraq war, started by Saddam.

1987-1989

At least 100,000 Kurds were slaughtered in the so-called Anfal campaign. Some were gassed, others cast alive into mass graves.

1988

On March 16, in the worst single atrocity of the Anfal campaign, 5,000 Kurds were killed when Saddam ordered planes to drop a mixture of mustard gas and the nerve agent sarin on the town of Halabja.

1990-1991

About 25,000 Iraqi troops are thought to have died in the seven-month Gulf War, following Saddam's invasion of Kuwait on August 2, 1990. Estimates of Iraqi civilian deaths have varied wildly - up to 200,000.

1991

Tens of thousands were killed as Saddam attempted to put down a popular rebellion following his defeat by in February 1991. More than 100,000 Shias were killed; a similar number of Kurds died. About 200,000 Marsh Arabs were killed or made homeless.

1993-1998

About 3,000 prisoners were machine-gunned to death at Mahjar prison in central Baghdad

And how many are glad things have changed?

Yeah I know it was all about oil... and I'm glad it was otherwise nothing would have been done to stop this guy.

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

whoops - I forgot to quote that and name the source and now I've forgotten what the source was.... lets just say it was parsley as it's Friday.

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By *uton_coupleCouple
over a year ago

luton

you pretty much said it all

there will be comments on here like / you gota be in it to win it , or / its important to vote etc etc etc

but they are the gormless drones that vote in the self same party they voted out in years gone by

this time they will vote in the ones they voted out last time because of the cash for questions sleaze

what they dont realize is that it is the same GOVERMENT after the election as it was before it / but with a small shift of power

manchester united football team might take a few players off and put a few subtitutes on

but its still manchester united football team / just as the GOVERMENT is the same after the election as it was before it

its all sewn up like a box of kippers and just as your pissing on your boots , i am pissing into the wind trying to explain this to the .....

gota be in it to win it brigade

unless you have proportional representation 30 percent of the voters can all vote for a party without gaining ONE seat

i will not vote in case someone sees me coming out of the polling station and associates me with all the other twats that vote

People with views like yours scare the shit out of me.

it is very interesting that people with veiws like mine scare the shit out of you

if there was enough people like me it might scare the shit out of the gorverment , so that things like proportional representation might be brought in

in the meantime you can carry on voting for either labour or conservative and nothing , repeat NOTHING will ever change

some of us have the inteligence to be INDEPENDANT , and not have to follow like sheep and vote for a PACKAGE DEAL , or MANIFESTO

that might have a few things in that you want ............... but others you dont want

like i said in another thread the manifesto might say , better schools , longer holidays , higher pensions , but they will shoot your grandmother

how fucking stupid a system is that

lolololololololololololololololololololo

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By *hemadcoupleCouple
over a year ago

cardiff

There was a time a long time ago now, when there were the Tories on one side, who were champions of big business, management and the rich, and would align their policies so that generally, the poorer and middle classes were less supported and even suppressed as far as workers' rights and public service was concerned.

Then on the other side was the Labour Party, who would champion the working class, public services, and generally make it more difficult for the rich and big business classes to cream excessive amounts of cash out of the economy and into their own pockets.

Hence how Trade Unionism came into being, as the only way that any sort of improvement in standard of living was to be had, was by literally wrangling concessions out of employers.

Believe me the only reason that we are not all either begging on the streets, or working 18hr days 6 days a week, and only allowed to keep a job if the employer is allowed to shag your wife when he feels like it, is due to Trade Unionism and the Labour Party.

At this time it was much more clear cut, and you staked your claim clearly.

However, things changed in the eighties. Thatcher had an overwhelming landslide majority and this was for the simple reason that she had charisma, which is the same reason why Tony Blair did the same later on.

However, in both cases, the big majority was the downfall of democracy in as much as the worst excesses of Thatcher were first of all able to be railroaded through parliament and in Tony Blair's case, New Labour had turned out to be a party which was effectively in the same mould as Thatcher's had been, and did the same.

I believe that doing this was the only way that New Labour was going to win an election, but despite its necessity at the time, the result was a party which carried on where Thatcher left off, and while it could not be expected to change things for some while, as the whole infrastructure of the Country had changed, nevertheless, they have been responsible for, for example, more privatisation than the Tories were, and have not delivered any policies which could be called Socialist as far as I can tell. They have lost their roots and there is now very little difference between them and the Tories, and it is hard to tell which is more right wing. Sometimes I think the Tories might even be to the left of Labour now.

I believe that the root of all the evil we have seen has been due to the huge majorities which have been in place since 1979. With small majorities, they have to listen to their back benchers more and devise policies which are much more consensual, as opposed to what we have seen the last 30 years which has virtually been tantamount to dictatorship.

Hopefully we can return to smaller working majorities whereby they are much more accountable.

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By *hemadcoupleCouple
over a year ago

cardiff

However I do agree that this state of affairs should be avoided with Proportional Representation.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Im a labour supporter, paid in full and always have been.

I may not agree with all that has happened or been done but do believe some things have changed for the better.

Those things that will be stripped if (god forbid) the tories re gain power.

They have already stated they will do away with the heating allowance for pensioners for a start.

Which scares alot of those i work with.

We also have tories running staffs county council.

Hence, in their wisdom , look upon daycentres etc as bieng institutionalised and now seek to close them regardless of those old people who want the service.

We then lose bloody good staff who have been trained to within an inch of their lives and for what ? the dole queue .

Once again the tories want "private enterprise" to take over.

Fat cats getting fatter yet again.

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

it is very interesting that people with veiws like mine scare the shit out of you

if there was enough people like me it might scare the shit out of the gorverment , so that things like proportional representation might be brought in

in the meantime you can carry on voting for either labour or conservative and nothing , repeat NOTHING will ever change

some of us have the inteligence to be INDEPENDANT , and not have to follow like sheep and vote for a PACKAGE DEAL , or MANIFESTO

that might have a few things in that you want ............... but others you dont want

like i said in another thread the manifesto might say , better schools , longer holidays , higher pensions , but they will shoot your grandmother

how fucking stupid a system is that

lolololololololololololololololololololo"

And some of us have the intelligence not only to be able to spell it but also to spot ignorance when we see it.

Do you think you are changing anything for the better by abstaining from voting? Do you think any MPs care if their party is voted in by 10 million people or 10 OAP’s who thought the ballot box was a bingo hall?

Does your abstaining change the manifesto of any of the parties? Does it bollox! But what it does change is the risk of minority extremists gaining positions where they can REALLY fuck up this country.

There’s nothing clever about doing nothing. And there’s certainly nothing clever in selective sniping at a system and government when you are prepared to do the very least you can to change it.

Doing nothing isn’t being independent, you’re more of a sheep than the voters… you’re just waiting to be told which field you’ll have to stand in.... happy grazing.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If you don`t vote then you have no right to complain once a party is in power.

Should also be mandatory that everyone on the electorial role has to vote.

And that way we get a true reflection of what people want.

But should also add a none of these to the ballot card.Just imagine 50% vote none of these.

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By *ebzStarWoman
over a year ago

Notting

I was told a long time ago (appx 18yrs ago ) that if i wasnt wanting to vote - that i still needed to go in the voting office - and destroy my ballet paper by either crossing them all out or ticking them all.

Unfortunately - only the votes that people make are actually counted, so if you dont vote at all, it classes as a non vote,. IF you destroy your ballot paper - then it classes as a negative vote - but at least it is counted.

SO many people i talk to dont vote at all - dont invalidate their ballot paper or anything.

OK - there is not much in each party, as they are all governed by the same policies - but they do make change - or else why do people remember the "Thatcher Years"????

IT IS important - and it DOES count!!

And all those that say they are not interested in politics - they still care about how much their petrol costs, beer, nhs, blah blah blah - we are ALL interested in politics - whatever screen we see it under.

SO VOTE _ and make a differnce xxx

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By *uton_coupleCouple
over a year ago

luton

it is very interesting that people with veiws like mine scare the shit out of you

if there was enough people like me it might scare the shit out of the gorverment , so that things like proportional representation might be brought in

in the meantime you can carry on voting for either labour or conservative and nothing , repeat NOTHING will ever change

some of us have the inteligence to be INDEPENDANT , and not have to follow like sheep and vote for a PACKAGE DEAL , or MANIFESTO

that might have a few things in that you want ............... but others you dont want

like i said in another thread the manifesto might say , better schools , longer holidays , higher pensions , but they will shoot your grandmother

how fucking stupid a system is that

lolololololololololololololololololololo

And some of us have the intelligence not only to be able to spell it but also to spot ignorance when we see it.

There’s nothing clever about doing nothing. And there’s certainly nothing clever in selective sniping at a system and government when you are prepared to do the very least you can to change it.

Doing nothing isn’t being independent, you’re more of a sheep than the voters… you’re just waiting to be told which field you’ll have to stand in.... happy grazing.

you seem to be saying that if i do not vote then it is more likely that extreemist groups will gain a stronger foot hold

in other words the fact that i do not vote will bring about change in the political make up of the country

have you not considered that situation might suit me just fine

that is what democracy is all about

you might not like political extreemists but i do

and i am doing what is best to bring them to the attention of the masses

so good luck to those that want to swing between the 2 main partys , first one way and then the other , and then back again

for me i would like to see more radical change , and if you think that an upsurge in minority extreemists will not influence the main partys manifesto then you are wrong

it has done in the past and it will do so again

what makes you choose when you vote either labour , consevative , or liberal ?

do you listen to there manifesto ?

more police , better schools , lower crime rates , more housing

dont you sometimes think that you heard it all before ?

duuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Doing nothing isn’t being independent, you’re more of a sheep than the voters… you’re just

waiting to be told which field you’ll have to stand

in.... happy grazing.

I don't think this has anything to do with "being Independent"..I think your missing the point, the

reason many of us don't want to vote is because there is no one (or party) worth voting for. Why the fuck should I vote, whoever I vote for is going to continue sending our soliders into two

illegal wars to fight and possibly die for nothing

other than securing another nations natural resources...by voting for any of these bastards, I would be condoning illegal invasions and murder.

Then there's the EU, have any of the parties

offered a referendom? NO! And thanks to that

one eyed, son of a thousand fathers, we ain't ever going to have one..you obviously don't mind having a foreign country dictate what we can & can't do.

You can call me & any others with similar beliefs sheep if you like (although I don't see how) but you & those who subscribe to your rhetoric...are what I call "Mushrooms" kept in the dark and fed

shit!

But hey..opinions are like assholes...everybodies

got one!

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By *exeteraWoman
over a year ago

Bridgend

Doing nothing isn’t being independent, you’re more of a sheep than the voters… you’re just

waiting to be told which field you’ll have to stand

in.... happy grazing.

I don't think this has anything to do with "being Independent"..I think your missing the point, the

reason many of us don't want to vote is because there is no one (or party) worth voting for. Why the fuck should I vote, whoever I vote for is going to continue sending our soliders into two

illegal wars to fight and possibly die for nothing

other than securing another nations natural resources...by voting for any of these bastards, I would be condoning illegal invasions and murder.

Then there's the EU, have any of the parties

offered a referendom? NO! And thanks to that

one eyed, son of a thousand fathers, we ain't ever going to have one..you obviously don't mind having a foreign country dictate what we can & can't do.

You can call me & any others with similar beliefs sheep if you like (although I don't see how) but you & those who subscribe to your rhetoric...are what I call "Mushrooms" kept in the dark and fed

shit!

But hey..opinions are like assholes...everybodies

got one!"

Well I'll refer back to an earlier post of mine and ask why, if you are so vocal about the lack of someone to vote for. Don't you put your money where your mouth is, get of your arse and stand yourself?. I've seen first hand what apathy can do, it lets the likes of the BNP gain a foothold, now that's not the counrty I want to live in.

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

you might not like political extreemists but i do

and i am doing what is best to bring them to the attention of the masses

If that is the case then why not have the courage of your convictions and vote for them?

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

I don't think this has anything to do with "being Independent"..I think your missing the point, ... "

Nope, I don't think I missed it... he typed it in capitals.

You can call me & any others with similar beliefs sheep if you like (although I don't see how) "

It's easy, I do it like this... 'sheep'.

Just as easy as calling voters sheep.

But hey..opinions are like assholes...everybodies

got one!"

Indeed, it's just that some produce more shit than others.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Touche.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Really

1978-1979

Up to 7,000 Iraqi communists were executed by

orders of the Ba'athist regime.

The specific atrocity for which Saddam was hanged: 148 Shias were murdered in the village of Dujail.

1984

Up to 4,000 political prisoners in Abu Ghraib jail were tortured and killed. Saddam's favoured

methods of torture included cutting off genitalia, gouging out eyes and acid baths.

1980-1988

Some 1.7m died on both sides during the Iran-Iraq war, started by Saddam.

1987-1989

At least 100,000 Kurds were slaughtered in the so-called Anfal campaign. Some were gassed, others cast alive into mass graves.

1988

On March 16, in the worst single atrocity of the Anfal campaign, 5,000 Kurds were killed when

Saddam ordered planes to drop a mixture of mustard gas and the nerve agent sarin on the town of Halabja.

1990-1991

About 25,000 Iraqi troops are thought to have died in the seven-month Gulf War, following

Saddam's invasion of Kuwait on August 2, 1990. Estimates of Iraqi civilian deaths have varied wildly - up to 200,000.

1991

Tens of thousands were killed as Saddam

attempted to put down a popular rebellion following his defeat by in February 1991. More than 100,000 Shias were killed; a similar number of Kurds died. About 200,000 Marsh Arabs were killed or made homeless.

1993-1998

About 3,000 prisoners were machine-gunned to death at Mahjar prison in central Baghdad

And how many are glad things have changed?

Yeah I know it was all about oil... and I'm glad it was otherwise nothing would have been done to stop this guy.

Strange how your able to document all of Saddams attrocities, yet you failed to mention

who put the bastard in power in the first place, In 1959, there was a failed assassination attempt

on Qasim. The failed assassin was none other than a young Saddam Hussein. In 1963, a CIA-

organized coup did successfully assassinate Qasim and and Saddam's Ba'ath Party came to power for the first time. Saddam returned from exile in Egypt and took up the key post as head of Iraq's secret service. The CIA then provided the new pliant, Iraqi regime with the names of thousands of communists ( I think that could be the 7000 you mentioned earlier) and other leftist activists and organizers. Thousands of these supporters of Qasim (Iraqs leader) and his policies were soon dead in a rampage of mass murder carried out

by the CIA's close friends in Iraq.

Let's not forget the gassing of thousands of

Kurds..a disgusting and Nazi like act of genocide, but let's not forget who sold the chemical & biological weapons to him. WMD shipments from the US & the UK to Iraq continued long after the

mass gassing of Kurds in Halabja..which would

make both governments complicit in these crime against humanity....did you forget about that bit?

1990-1991

About 25,000 Iraqi troops are thought to have died in the seven-month Gulf War, following

Saddam's invasion of Kuwait on August 2, 1990. Estimates of Iraqi civilian deaths have varied wildly - up to 200,000.

Er..I think you've got your facts a little muddled, it wasn't 200,000 Iraqi civilian deaths....it was over 500,000 innocent Iraqi,s most of whom were

children under the age of 5yrs... they died

because of the SANCTIONS imposed on Iraq by

the UN..which were instigated by the US & the UK because "apparently" Saddam had gone into KuwaitI hospitals and had taken the babies out of their incubators, thrown them on the floor and stole the incubators from the Kuwaiti

hospitals...this was the argument put forth by G.Bush snr & was broadcasted worldwide...only later did we (those who research) find out that the whole episode was a crock of shit.

Reaseach it yourself!

If our government is so concerned with human

rights atrocities, and participating in illegal "Regime Change" for the benifit of the people..why havnt we gone into N.Korea, or Zimbabwe..or how about China..or even the Ivory Coast?

The UN published a report on the countries with the worst human rights...Iraq was number 15 out of 20.. The countries I listed above were all in the

top 5

And finally..I just want to reiterate the fact that Saddam was put in power by the west, and our governments put him there to serve their own

interests...even though they knew he was a murdering bastard, So what does that say about our governments?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I don't think this has anything to do with "being Independent"..I think your missing the point, ...

Nope, I don't think I missed it... he typed it in capitals.

You can call me & any others with similar beliefs sheep if you like (although I don't see how)

It's easy, I do it like this... 'sheep'.

Just as easy as calling voters sheep.

But hey..opinions are like assholes...everybodies

got one!

Indeed, it's just that some produce more shit than others.

Good point, but I'd rather produce it, than be fed it, but who am I to judge those who enjoy eating up the banquet of bullshit served by our government...just don't get pissed at me simply because I ain't hungry!

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

I’m well aware of the history behind Saddam.

So as for what does it say about our governments… well in my opinion it says they fucked up, realised they fucked up and eventually did something about the even bigger fuck up which was well and truly on the cards. And as I previously said … I know it was about oil and I’m glad they did it. Not just to eliminate the fuck up of Saddam but so I can drive my car, heat my house, and afford to buy a pack of bin-liners.

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

Just out of curiosity… what do you think they should have done 2002 onwards?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I’m well aware of the history behind Saddam.

glad they did it. Not just to eliminate the fuck up of Saddam but so I can drive my car, heat my house, and afford to buy a pack of bin-liners.

Although I find it quite disturbing that you try & justify the murder of over 1.5million (& counting) innocent people because you want your binliners, your car & a warm house...I have to admire your honesty...if I felt the same way, I doubt I'd have the balls to express in public such a blatant disregard for human life over some plastic bags & and a cheaper British gas bill!

But each to their own..it's 2.42am so I'll finish this tomorrow..might be better if I send it to you I. Private..I'm sure other members are getting bored!

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By *aucy3Couple
over a year ago

glasgow

we should all move to a country governed by a dictator,no vote.in south america,or africa maybe.that would be much better than democracy.having no choice would be much better,than what we have now.wake up this might not be perfect, but its the best there is.the choices might not be great,but it is a choice.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" And finally..I just want to reiterate the fact that Saddam was put in power by the west, and our governments put him there to serve their own

interests...even though they knew he was a murdering bastard, So what does that say about our governments?

Only someone incredibly niave believes that any government anywhere in the world is altruistic. Power seekers are drawn to control like a moth to a flame, they cannot help it, and 'the people' are merely the vehicle that they use to obtain power.

They'll campaign that they are the best person for the job and that things will be different once you give them the power they so desperately crave. But it's just words, just a tool to use to get that power. Once they've obtained power they can dispense with the niceties and get on with the job that drives them most - keeping that power.

We're fortunate here in the so called civilised west, we can cap the amount of power our leaders have because we've fought and died for it. We're educated enough to know when someone is taking diabolical liberties with us and we have limited power to end that. Opposition parties too have been granted power, and it's that power that enforces our wishes should a sitting government turn hostile towards it's own people. The Opposition is the electorate's natural bedfellow.

We're fortunate though. The people of countries, like Iraq, Sierra Leone et al, have been deliberately kept in the dark pool of ignorance because their leaders have realised exactly what I have just said: An educated populace is a powerful populace.

Why do you think Polpot killed everyone who could read or write except his own party members in Cambodia?

To keep the power, that's why.

All this talk of our politican's being corrupt is 50% true. They're not of the criminal fraternity, who set out with criminal exploitation in their minds when they are elected, but once they take their seat in parliament they are shown a system whereby everyone in Westminster is riding a gravy train that has neither a driver or a guard and they're free to help themselves. You can call that corruption, or you can call it something much more suitable to what it actually is:

Opportunism.

If you found a bundle of banknotes in the street, £500 for example, you are duty bound to hand it in to the police. Would you though. I know I wouldn't because I can easily spend that without anyone ever realising I had it, but if it was £50,000 I'd have a lot of problems trying to explain where it came from. I still wouldn't hand it in though.

I'd grasp the opportunity to see if I can keep it, and if I can't, I'd burn it.

That's what politician's do. They take what they can, apologise if caught, or get rid if they think they're going to be caught.

Occasionally, a couple of them are thrown to the wolves to keep the rest of the pack safe, but don't think for a second that Westminster is suddenly filled with honest politicians. They're the same people who fiddled their expenses - and they'll find ways to continue doing it. Loop holes are left in for a reason.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

ok i think im getting too personal in this post and maybe things are becoming heated , regardless of views on iraq and afghanistan , i really do feel folk should vote even if its spoiling the paper showing your disgust in some way in the polling station will do me , i dont mind who folk vote for and their reasons thats their choice and its private but for me as long as you vote i couldnt care less . bottom line i believe in democracy , i believe in action , i believe in standing up for what you think is right . so to not vote is handing politcians of all persuasions a liscence to rip the piss and when asked about your thoughts and your views i dont think you really have the right to say much as you never bothered to vote in the first place , sorry im just trying to move this all away from talk of war and back to the op's original question

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By *exeteraWoman
over a year ago

Bridgend

"ok i think im getting too personal in this post and maybe things are becoming heated , regardless of views on iraq and afghanistan , i really do feel folk should vote even if its spoiling the paper showing your disgust in some way in the polling station will do me , i dont mind who folk vote for and their reasons thats their choice and its private but for me as long as you vote i couldnt care less . bottom line i believe in democracy , i believe in action , i believe in standing up for what you think is right . so to not vote is handing politcians of all persuasions a liscence to rip the piss and when asked about your thoughts and your views i dont think you really have the right to say much as you never bothered to vote in the first place , sorry im just trying to move this all away from talk of war and back to the op's original question

My sentiments exactly, if you're not prepared to do something about it then that says it all.

Any comments written on ballot papers will only be seen by the counter and when presented to the presiding officer who makes the decision whether to discard that ballot paper.

There is also the opportunity to make a stand and put yourself forward for election. Change doesn't happen overnight unfortunately and is mostly a slow process but change can happen.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You cannot have forced voting. It isn't deomcratic in any way whatsoever.

What we could have, however, is a system that assumes that because you didn't vote once before that you aren't likely to vote in any future elections, and as such you can be struck off the electoral rolls. It saves on paper and postage (nice and green eh

), and if you would like to vote at any time after being struck off you have to apply to be re-registered.

It's the golden rule of sales. Take the product away. The 'product' in this instance is your right to vote. The 'sale' is a policy to ensure that almost everybody votes.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

hmmm i would remove your right to protest then , how can you have that right when you have shown no interest in the political system ? oz has voting the way it should be in my opnion , but kudous on the green part lol

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"hmmm i would remove your right to protest then , how can you have that right when you have shown no interest in the political system ? oz has voting the way it should be in my opnion , but kudous on the green part lol "

You are misunderstanding what it is to live in a democratic society. The right to vote or not to vote and the right to protest or not to protest is given to us all.

What if I voted in every election but I was a communist and my fervent wish would be to remove the voting system altogether once The Communist Party had achieved power, thus eliminating elections entirely. I could protest against deomcratic elections (which under your scenario is acceptable because I've voted) but my long term aim would be to remove elections forever.

Now, do I have the right to protest and the right to vote considering what my aims are?

For the record, I am NOT a commie and I do vote, but I recognise the rights of those who choose not to.

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