FabSwingers.com forum: jon venerables

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

i know this might spark high emotion but just seen on the news that one of the boys who killed jamie bulger is back in prison after breaching bale?

i thought when they were released they were gettin sent out the country?

the bit i really dont understand is why he was freed?

i know there is a press ban on any coverage of him or the other one but as the public should we have the right to know ?? i think we do and think he should never have been released thats my personal opinion x

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By *oe_Steve_NWestCouple
over a year ago

Bolton

he is in australia - should have been shot in my opinion - don't know much more about this but Steve mentioned it earlier - Z

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

i just caught a wee bit o it on the news and im assumin they will have been told what they could and couldnt say. xx

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By *oe_Steve_NWestCouple
over a year ago

Bolton

should still be locked up in my eyes

however if we must let them out then we have to give them half a chance of a semi normal life.

cant help thinking a bullet each would have saved us a whole lot of trouble and money in the long run.

Steve

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"he is in australia - should have been shot in my opinion - don't know much more about this but Steve mentioned it earlier - Z"

If he has been recalled to jail he must be in the UK. Just seen it on the news and its disgusting.

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By *i 1 Get 1 FreeCouple (MM)
over a year ago

birmingham

"however if we must let them out then we have to give them half a chance of a semi normal life"

Being released gave him the opportunity to prove he'd learnt from his crime, as he's ended up back inside, clearly he hasn't and therefore should remain in prison for the foreseeable future.

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By *oe_Steve_NWestCouple
over a year ago

Bolton

"he is in australia - should have been shot in my opinion - don't know much more about this but Steve mentioned it earlier - Z

If he has been recalled to jail he must be in the UK. Just seen it on the news and its disgusting."

i think it's a world wide thing that they can be put back in prison regardless of where they are -

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There is something wrong with a society that calls for the bloodletting of two 10 year old boys. Yes, their crime was horrific and no excuses can be made for that, but how many of us are the same people as adults that we were as children? I have changed for sure.

It is interesting that the Detective involved with the case back in 1993, and who got to know both boys reasonably well, has recently stated that of the two, it was his opinion that Venebales would be the least likely to do anything that would incur him being sent back to jail.

Nobody knows what he has done to breach his licence but returning to Merseyside could be one of them, or contacting the Bulger family could be another. We can't judge as we don't know. But I certainly couldn't bloody my hands on a 10y/o boy as most people wanted to do back then, and if he's changed now he's a man, then he deserves a second chance at life - he'll never be entirely free of his past and that's something he'll always have to live with.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Having just listened to the news, he must have been in the uk as he is being held in the uk. He would be held in a foreign country if he was living abroad and whilst it is likely to be on the news if he was being held in oz, it would definately be mentioned (ie, 'venables is being held in prison in oz')

As for emotions, they have served their time, they should be entitled to go on with their lives (unless there is a further brush with the law, as there seems to be in this case). The crime was heinous, but i don't think they were evil, just messed up. I think it is an unfortunate function of society that these things happen (are still happening and have probably always happened).

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By *ig badMan
over a year ago

Up North :-)

Well i would agree with Wishy on this one as blood letting is not the answer. Its the Bulger family i feel sorry for as all the media attention must be hurting her badly.

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

I think we need to be a tiny bit careful when we talk about this here...

this was 16 years ago... they would now be 27, they were allowed out on when they were 18.... so we are talking about at least 9 years of not doing anything wrong....

I am not being an apologist for them at all....

All that we know is that he breached a part of his bail conditions as part of the original release.... the Dept of Justice haven't said which one...

some of the bail conditions were for example:

No contact allowed with the Bulger family....

No Contact allowed with each other....

No allowed to step foot in merseyside....

there were others that were made public and others that were not.... we don't know which rule he broke or how serious it was.....

until we know what transgression he made I don't we gain anything by specualating.....

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By *zMaleMan
over a year ago

penzance

Fabio I agree with you to some extent....No we can't judge on the breach cos we don't know what it was. Having said that the conditions of their release would have been to protect the Bulger family, themselves to some extent and the general public.

If he has made contact wit the family then IMHO he should rot behind bars. As he would have raised all the heartache and dispair to the family again and this as a so called man is dispicable and unforgiveable.

If he has breached a condition protecting himself, then more fool him.

If he has breached a condition against the general public, then he didn't learn much whilst inside.

Prisons have a rule called sect43 ( the numbers) This rule was brought in to protect prisoners from the general populace of prisons for their own protection and it is given primarily to sex offenders. EG Peter Sutcliffe, the Wests' ETC.

I really do hope that he is NOT given the numbers opportunity. Because conditions of licence are not given lightly, so there must have been a major breach.

Has Jamie Bulger got a second chance of life?

Right that me off my soap box now, wearing a tin hat as I expect a lot off flack but by the nature of the thread it always was going to be highly emotive.

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

"i know this might spark high emotion but just seen on the news that one of the boys who killed jamie bulger is back in prison after breaching bale?

i thought when they were released they were gettin sent out the country?

the bit i really dont understand is why he was freed?

I think to stop any speculation then people should be told or at the very least, Jamies parents.

At the moment everyone is probably assuming the worse, but as others have said, it might not be a crime like he did to Jamie.

I know they were children at the time and know why they were protected, but what about the protection of Jamies parents and families peace of mind.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I know they were children at the time and know why they were protected, but what about the protection of Jamies parents and families peace of mind.

The killers and the Bulger family are inextricably linked and will be so foerever more. In the same way that the Moors Murderers are forever linked to their victims and their victim's families, you cannot speak of one without invoking the other.

I've often wondered what makes a person kill, ie murder (not self defence), in particularly, serial killers - do they do it to forever 'own' their victims?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The lads were 10 years old and spent 8 years in secure accommodation.

Their case went back to the Courts when they were nearing 18yrs of age. Lord Woolf decided that it would be of no benefit to either of them to spend any time in what he called the corrosive atmosphere of a young offenders institution.

They were subsequently granted parole on a lifelong licence and given new identities to try and protect them.

Whether the court was right to give them a chance to prove that the incident, as evil as it was, was just an abboration on their part as children, I'm not sure.

But young Mr Venables it seems has shown that he cannot keep himself out of trouble.

I hope that Robert Thomson has turned his life around, because he, like Jamie's family, have to live each day with what he and his friend did.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

send the fuc kers to me fo a hour they will wish they never lived and after i hd seen them they whouldnt

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

"I know they were children at the time and know why they were protected, but what about the protection of Jamies parents and families peace of mind.

I've often wondered what makes a person kill, ie murder (not self defence), in particularly, serial killers - do they do it to forever 'own' their victims? "

Well if they didn't, that is exactly how it sadly ends up.

I just think everytime any of these killers are in the limelight it must be a nightmare for the parents ( more so than usual ) so I think whoever is in charge should decide to keep the parents informed at least.

PS I spelt peace instead of piece .

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

"send the fuc kers to me fo a hour they will wish they never lived and after i hd seen them they whouldnt "

So you beat one up and maybe he dies from his injuries.....how does that make you any better than him?

I am of the opinion if you want to fight join the army.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"send the fuc kers to me fo a hour they will wish they never lived and after i hd seen them they whouldnt "

What gives you the right to inflict violence on someone who has served their full time for there offences? More sense and less bravado would be better utilised.

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

To be fair, even the people who havn't got a violent bone in their body would have probably said at the time, give them to me for a nano second and I will do some damage to them.

I am guessing even though the Bulgers and their families have acted with great dignity through all of this would have said the same thing at some point.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What gives you the right to inflict violence on someone who has served their full time for there offences? More sense and less bravado would be better utilised."

But surely 10 years for murder can never be classed as a fit and proper sentence for murder.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

they were 10 years old at the time, just children, so how long is long enough until they are released?

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

Personally I think they should have served some in an adult prison....which in turn probably means for a longer sentance.

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

"Personally I think they should have served some in an adult prison....which in turn probably means for a longer sentance."

I think that one of the reasons for them not being transferred to an adult prison would have been the almost inevitable violence that would have been dealt out to them, now some may think that would have been a good thing but where does it all end?

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

"Personally I think they should have served some in an adult prison....which in turn probably means for a longer sentance.

They have segregation for murderers etc..

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

"Personally I think they should have served some in an adult prison....which in turn probably means for a longer sentance.

They have segregation for murderers etc.."

Peter Sutcliffe was in segregation when he was blinded in one eye, by a prisoner also in segregation for murder.

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

"Personally I think they should have served some in an adult prison....which in turn probably means for a longer sentance.

They have segregation for murderers etc..

Peter Sutcliffe was in segregation when he was blinded in one eye, by a prisoner also in segregation for murder.

But isn't that the chance they take if they kill someone? Sutcliffe did a hell of a lot more than blind people.

Yes I know they were kids at the time, and I like a lot of people cried at the thought of not only a small child being killed, but that they were children who actually did it.

But for me, the only punishment they served was not being able to go out at night. they lived in comfortable surroundings with all mod cons.....so for me, they should have sevred some time at least in a place where they probably wouldn't want to go back to.

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

Whats your view jane?

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

"Whats your view jane?"

It's a very difficult one, made more difficult because not only was poor Jamie a child but that he was also killed by children.

If they could have been kept safe from other prisoners then of course I would have personally liked to have seen them spend a further Ten years in an adult prison.

Unfortunately they would not have learnt a thing by being in Solitary Confinement for Ten years in an adult prison, it's not an easy one to answer really.....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

In a juvenile secure unit they do indeed try and replicate a home ideal. The kids usually have their own room, are encouraged to bring some of their own belongings and will be in "units" of around 6 kids. They'll eat together, sit together and watch TV and during school hours will be educated.

Each child is assigned a Keyworker who will spend time with the child in an effort to engage the child. Everything is geared to behaviour modification. There should be a lot of support within this environment for both the children and the staff in order to best achieve this aim.

Once a child reaches 18 years of age they are no longer part of this system. The next step is to move them to a juvenile offenders institute. The level of support and staff commitment is not as great here and there is always the danger that the work done whilst a child was in a secure unit could be undone.

When Lord Woolfe, back in 2001, ruled on a minimum tariff for Venables & Thompson I believe he had this latter point in mind.

It's a difficult decision, do you keep the youngsters in the criminal detention system and risk undoing any good work done with them as they were growing up. Or, do you set a minimum tariff that allows parole at a far earlier age to give them a chance to prove themselves worthy of a chance to reintegrate into society.

Young Thompson appears to have kept his head down and made a go of it. Venables is obviously no rehabilitated and undoubtedly deserves to be back where a lot of people think he should have stayed.

Mary Bell was a child killer. If my recollection is correct she killed 2 children. Like the 2 boys she was released on a lifelong license with a new identity. To the best of my knowledge she has reintegrated herself into as normal a life as she can without any further signs of disturbance on her part.

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By *oe_Steve_NWestCouple
over a year ago

Bolton

"Whats your view jane?

It's a very difficult one, made more difficult because not only was poor Jamie a child but that he was also killed by children.

If they could have been kept safe from other prisoners then of course I would have personally liked to have seen them spend a further Ten years in an adult prison.

Unfortunately they would not have learnt a thing by being in Solitary Confinement for Ten years in an adult prison, it's not an easy one to answer really.....

I agree to some extent with Jane but surely prison is a punishment as well as trying to rehabilitate? I think that solitary for them for at least 10 years would have been pretty apt - although they were young they perpetrated an 'adult' crime and they knew full well what they were doing - they planned it as they lured Jamie away from his mum with the sole intention of harming him - thats premeditated and wicked - I still think they should have been shot regardless of their ages - harsh I know and most won't agree with me but I could still cry when I think about that poor baby being tortured. Z

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

Sorry Stu but we don't know for certain the extent of Mr Venables parole violation.

Could just be that he has attempted to return to live in the Merseyside area, until we know more details (and Jack Straw said that won't be made public) then we surely can only speculate?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

He knew the terms of his parole. If returning to Merseyside was something he'd been caught doing sooner then would have had more sympathy with him.

The terms of the license regarding new identity etc must have been hard on each of them.

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By *oe_Steve_NWestCouple
over a year ago

Bolton

"He knew the terms of his parole. If returning to Merseyside was something he'd been caught doing sooner then would have had more sympathy with him.

The terms of the license regarding new identity etc must have been hard on each of them."

new identity - hard on them?????? what a shame - at least they're alive! Z

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

would be hard on any juvenile giving up their identity and everything and everyone they knew, forced to keep themselves, who they are and what they've done as a secret while they tried to move on with their own lives.

Re building what life they could for themselves is something that they should have been allowed to do.

They would have been released anyway at some point. The issue is how long do you keep them within a system that could criminalise someone who may have been able to reintegrate and be a useful member of society.

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

The Home Secretary has announced that the reasons will be made public at some point, but cannot be presently as it may prejudice any future criminal proceedings.

He also back the public's right to know why Venables has been sent back to prison but obviously details can't be aired at this time.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Niether of them should have ever been released never mind getting a new identity.. this country's far to soft with to many bloody do gooders

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

in a caring humane society ,,should we condem children to a life behind bars ???? i think not ,,they were despite the horrid crime just children ,,,as for being back in prison ,, lets wait and see what hes back in for

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Zoe_Steve wrote:

" I still think they should have been shot regardless of their ages - harsh I know and most won't agree with me but I could still cry when I think about that poor baby being tortured. Z"

If you're the sort of person that could pull the trigger on a 10y/o child - regardless of what they've done - then I'd be worried about leaving you alone with my children.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"in a caring humane society ,,should we condem children to a life behind bars ???? i think not ,,they were despite the horrid crime just children ,,,as for being back in prison ,, lets wait and see what hes back in for "

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By *oe_Steve_NWestCouple
over a year ago

Bolton

"Zoe_Steve wrote:

I still think they should have been shot regardless of their ages - harsh I know and most won't agree with me but I could still cry when I think about that poor baby being tortured. Z

If you're the sort of person that could pull the trigger on a 10y/o child - regardless of what they've done - then I'd be worried about leaving you alone with my children."

I don't know if i could actually pull the trigger, would be able to if it had been my baby though. I am one of the softest, biggest hearted people you could wish to meet and adore children, and am very caring in general - the things they did to that little boy were horrendous compunded that they seemed to go out that day with the intent to commit such a crime - it was premeditated. Z

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By *exeteraWoman
over a year ago

Bridgend

On a positive note, it is great to hear that they're movements are being monitored. This is now obvious as how else would they know bail conditions had been broken. It was a terrible crime and this now comes on the back of another terrible crime that was recently committed by children against children. We don't know the facts in this instance and my thoughts are with Jamie's family.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The sickeningly liberal attitude towards this scum by many on here beggars belief!!!

God,no wonder society is in the state it is when yobs rule the streets with all these bleeding heart sentiments.

What these little bastards did wasn't just naughty it was outright evil.

They didn't pinch apples ffs,they tortured a poor little tot in ways too horrible to imagine and were well old enough to know exactly what they were doing.

If I were the Bulgers,how I'd so want either of them to get in touch.

I'd welcome them to my home with open arms and send them out in a zipped up bag,which is what they fully deserve!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The sickeningly liberal attitude towards this scum by many on here beggars belief!!!

God,no wonder society is in the state it is when yobs rule the streets with all these bleeding heart sentiments.

What these little bastards did wasn't just naughty it was outright evil.

They didn't pinch apples ffs,they tortured a poor little tot in ways too horrible to imagine and were well old enough to know exactly what they were doing.

If I were the Bulgers,how I'd so want either of them to get in touch.

I'd welcome them to my home with open arms and send them out in a zipped up bag,which is what they fully deserve!"

You have not understood why people are posting the way they are. It is not in acceptance of their crimes or, in your words, their sickeningly liberal attitude, that many have posted on here saying how Venables & Thompson should be permitted to get on with their lives. It is because the laws of our land has stated that they can, and without the law we would truly become a society where murder, rape and mayhem were the order of the day and we'd live a dog-eat-dog existence. Without the law we'd have nothing. We may not always agree with it, but we have to support it all the way or not at all.

There is another quite chilling aspect to a lot of the posts made on this thread - many of the posts that have called for these boys to have been shot, either now or at the time of their offences, have been by women. That really surprises me.

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

Wishy and I have on occasion had massively differing opinions on things on these forums, we clash politically....but have to give him credit for his post, which I agree with completely.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The sickeningly liberal attitude towards this scum by many on here beggars belief!!!

God,no wonder society is in the state it is when yobs rule the streets with all these bleeding heart sentiments.

What these little bastards did wasn't just naughty it was outright evil.

They didn't pinch apples ffs,they tortured a poor little tot in ways too horrible to imagine and were well old enough to know exactly what they were doing.

If I were the Bulgers,how I'd so want either of them to get in touch.

I'd welcome them to my home with open arms and send them out in a zipped up bag,which is what they fully deserve!

It may well be the law of the land but as Dickens wrote and which is certainly true of the Bulger case, "the law is an ass!" and often is.

After what they did they ceased to be impish little lads anymore and became vermin.

Which is probably why many women have empathy with Jamies mother.

It would be the same as stamping on a cockroach.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You watch the news tonight and watch how 'responsible men & women' try and attack the van carrying those boys to prison in 1993. It chills me to the bone to think what would have happened had those 'responsible men & women' actually succeeded in stopping the van and wrenching the doors open.

They were boys with a lack or moral code and no sense of right & wrong. The blame lies squarely with their parents. I watch my young son at 10mos old and he has absolutely no idea about what is safe for him and what will kill him - he'll put it in his mouth either way. It's up to me to teach him that.

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By *ebzStarWoman
over a year ago

Notting

But most kids of 10 years old are MORE than aware of what is right or wrong.

Just that many kids these days choose to ignore it.

Its not always the blame of the parents - as gangs at school can make kids act totally differnt to how they act in the home.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

just finding it really hard to believe anyone anywhere would have any sympathy what so ever for these two scumbags! whats the world coming to?

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

Not so sure that I have seen much sympathy for these two young men, just understandable reaction to some people on here who are advocating killing Ten year old boys for a crime, however hideous their crime was.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Not so sure that I have seen much sympathy for these two young men, just understandable reaction to some people on here who are advocating killing Ten year old boys for a crime, however hideous their crime was.

Two young men? surely 2 pieces of what you'd wipe of your shoe if you stood in it.. anyway atleast for now one of them is back where they belong!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Just out of interest.... To those of you who would have 'shot' or 'beaten' to death the two culprits rather than them suffer punishment set out by the laws decided by our society, the society in which, through election and process you have a say... How would you feel if democracy was replaced by a dictatorship?

Or does that not apply to you? The laws are only laws if you agree with them?

You can't have it both ways.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"just finding it really hard to believe anyone anywhere would have any sympathy what so ever for these two scumbags! whats the world coming to? "

It's not sympathy I have for them, it's pity. They know what they've done and will have to live with it all their lives. Ask me if I think they should have ever been released and I'll say 'No', but it's been decided that they posed no further threat to society and were released. I'm not privvy to the reports on both men so I cannot say that they aren't.

If you take the case of the Krays, many people saw them as glamorous gangsters and that they'd served enough time in jail, yet they both killed in quite horrific circumstances and deserved to die in jail. As did the Moors Murderers. But those criminals were grown adults who knew not only was it wrong to kill but the likelihood of what would happen to them when they were caught. These boys couldn't have possibly conceived of what a lifetime in jail actually meant.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"just finding it really hard to believe anyone anywhere would have any sympathy what so ever for these two scumbags! whats the world coming to?

sorry but having a 10yr old son ourselves we firmly believe they know right from wrong!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"You watch the news tonight and watch how 'responsible men & women' try and attack the van carrying those boys to prison in 1993. It chills me to the bone to think what would have happened had those 'responsible men & women' actually succeeded in stopping the van and wrenching the doors open.

Theres a deal of difference between 10 months and 10 years of age.

Think about the same thing happening to your child,Heaven forbid,I'd bet our mortgage you'd be first in line to be banging on the van,screaming for blood.

I also doubt very much if you'd care what 'history' the perpetrators had either.......whatever, it gave them no right to do what they did.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Theres a deal of difference between 10 months and 10 years of age.

Think about the same thing happening to your child,Heaven forbid,I'd bet our mortgage you'd be first in line to be banging on the van,screaming for blood.

I also doubt very much if you'd care what 'history' the perpetrators had either.......whatever, it gave them no right to do what they did. "

Here! Here! our sentiments exactly

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

sorry but having a 10yr old son ourselves we firmly believe they know right from wrong!"

Because YOU taught him that. Clearly, Venables & Thompson were lacking that sense of right & wrong.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

sorry but having a 10yr old son ourselves we firmly believe they know right from wrong!

Because YOU taught him that. Clearly, Venables & Thompson were lacking that sense of right & wrong. "

sorry but we don't buy that as an excuse they'd have known right from wrong from school even if the parents didn't give a s**t.. Just our opinion and no one will change it. Imagine it was one of yours god forbid how would you feel then?

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By *zMaleMan
over a year ago

penzance

The law of the land states, that a child of 10 and under IS NOT, criminally reponsible for their actions.

Unfortnately, we all know that there are some 10 yr olds, that are fully aware of what they are doing and there are others who are not.

The Law has to draw a line somewhere and the Law Lords in their infinate wisdom declared it to be 10 and under.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

sorry but having a 10yr old son ourselves we firmly believe they know right from wrong!

Because YOU taught him that. Clearly, Venables & Thompson were lacking that sense of right & wrong.

Devastated, but it still wouldn't make me pick up a stick and bludgeon a 10y/o child to death with it. I have a sense of what's right and what's wrong, you see.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Just out of interest.... To those of you who would have 'shot' or 'beaten' to death the two culprits rather than them suffer punishment set out by the laws decided by our society, the society in which, through election and process you have a say... How would you feel if democracy was replaced by a dictatorship?

Or does that not apply to you? The laws are only laws if you agree with them?

You can't have it both ways."

By dictatorship,do you mean an unelected leader?

One who pays scant regard to the wishes of the people?

One who 'does his own thing' with little regard for the people?

Someone like Gordon Brown perhaps?

Britain has had a democratically elected dictatorship for years.

They're all democratic until they get into power and then become dictators!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Think when people voted at the last general election they voted labour, and not Tony bLiar

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By *he Happy ManMan
over a year ago

Merseyside

They should say what he has done to breach the terms of his release and why he is back in prison.

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

"They should say what he has done to breach the terms of his release and why he is back in prison. "

They can't at this time as it may prejudice any possible criminal proceedings being considered against him.

If and when he is charged with a crime they will undoubtably release that information.

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By *harpDressed ManMan
over a year ago

Here occasionally, but mostly somewhere else

Fascinating responses.

Nice to see 'an eye for an eye' is alive and well as a system of justice - presumably those of you advocating violence towards children also back the return of corporal punishment? Teach your children that violence deserves more violence?

Other, more moderate people wanted them locked up for life. Fair enough, can we build a prison in your garden please? Because the ones we have are FULL, and that's letting murderers out after an average of about 15 years (which is a lesser sentence, proportionally, than these two got). Plus, if life means life, then attempted murder will go from 5 years to 20, ditto rape, etc. We'd need 10 new prisons...

Finally, a potentially controversial point. I would rather they were out contributing to society, producing something, paying taxes etc, than sitting needlessly in a cell at my expense...AS LONG AS they do so. Now that one of them has,nt, he goes back. Seems like a good example of a sensible system working correctly.

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By *exeteraWoman
over a year ago

Bridgend

Or does that not apply to you? The laws are only laws if you agree with them?

You can't have it both ways."

Most of our laws are ancient and can be traced back to the times of master and serf. The whole legal system needs an overhaul and I agree the law is an ass.

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

The alternative is to build more prisons and sentence more people that are found guilty for crimes to incarceration in these prisons.

England and Wales sit about 10th in the International prisoners per head of population charts with 152 per 100,000 population....In the States it is an incredible 760 per head......that is FIVE times more.

It currently costs around £41,000 a year to keep a person in prison in England & Wales at a total cost in 2008 of £4.325 Billion.

If we followed the American model for imprisoning people we would have to find an extra £21 Billion per year to do so.

Still want to put more people in prison?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

was he actually in austrailia or have the public been lied to again?

what is the solution? he is now a 27 year old adult and to be honest i cant see him gettin taken back to prison for somethin trivial.

we only know what we are being told but it still makes you think where was he and what has he done and just how many chances should people get and raises the question of rehabilitation does it work?

my heart really goes out to the bulger family what that poor baby suffered at the hands of those two is utterly horrific and for that babys mum to live with the fact that they are out and about is more of a nightmare than any parent could imagine.xx

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"he is in australia - should have been shot in my opinion - don't know much more about this but Steve mentioned it earlier - Z"

Can you back up that he was in Oz and be for sure that it was Jon Venables.

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By *oe_Steve_NWestCouple
over a year ago

Bolton

"he is in australia - should have been shot in my opinion - don't know much more about this but Steve mentioned it earlier - Z

Can you back up that he was in Oz and be for sure that it was Jon Venables. "

- said this last night - thought steve said he was in Australia - bit off the cuff response with very little info at that time - Z

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I've avoided this on the news and in the papers best I can, I've not read much of this thread either.

When it happened I had a small one the same age as James Bulger, it shocked me to the core, as with many others of course, but I really don't want to start thinking about it at all, I just caught the old footage on the news of James being led out of the shopping area and it brought all those feelings back for a moment.

I know we can't all go about not thinking about such things, but my thoughts would not help anyone surrounding this case, and would in fact only bring me down, so for your sake I avoid it, for those of you I bug, you don't want to experience me on a downer. lol.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" By dictatorship,do you mean an unelected leader?

One who pays scant regard to the wishes of the people?

One who 'does his own thing' with little regard for the people?

Someone like Gordon Brown perhaps?

Britain has had a democratically elected dictatorship for years.

They're all democratic until they get into power and then become dictators!

You actually believe a law is passed as simply as a prime minister saying it is law? I think maybe you are being a tad subjective.

Mind you, if you are one of the 'take the law in my own hands and kill them' types, how can you complain if a prime minister seems to do only what you would do if you had that power? Again, you can't have it both ways.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" Most of our laws are ancient and can be traced back to the times of master and serf. The whole legal system needs an overhaul and I agree the law is an ass."

Can MOST of our laws really be traced back to the times of 'master and serf' (whenever that specifically is)... Can you give me a more accurate figure? A percentage say?

If the law needs an overhaul, who would do that? An elected body maybe? Maybe one that is voted for by the adult population of the country the laws are destined for?

If the law is an ass, maybe we should all be eating straw for breakfast?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Oh, and further to my last posting, how about this... We have a regular review, say every five years, where the adult population get a say in their opinion of the executive body they elected by having re-elections?

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By *eprobatepairCouple
over a year ago

london

The fact is we don't know what Venables did to breach the terms of his licence, so how can we comment?

The act of killing Jamie Bulger was horrific. Did they mean to do so? Did they act with the intent to kill him? We don't know. Only they know.

Were they punished sufficiently? Who can "reasonably" answer that? The law of the land works on precendent. There was no precedent of a similar nature at the time. Tragically in South Yorkshire recently there has been a similar case.

In Africa children are forced to join Militia Groups after having been traumatised. How do you judge something so appalling?

No matter what we say, or what opinions we hold, it can't assuage the grief of the Bulger family or indeed the parents of the two boys who murdered Jamie.

Wishy was stating an opinion that in a democratic society advocating the death penalty on two juveniles would most likely be regarded as abhorrent to most people. He was not defending Venables. I have friend who works in Wakefield Prison guarding some of the most notorious criminals in the country like Shipman, Huntley, Bronson, Neilson et al. His opinion is that they are all pitiful creatures. Perhaps they should have been sent to Broadmoor indefinitely. Without knowledge we are just banging our gums.

In the Ascent of Man series in the 70s Bronowski talks of 4 million Jews flushed into a pond. He says:- It was not done by Arrogance. It was done by Dogma. It was done by Ignorance. When people believe that they have absolute knowledge, with no test in reality, this is how they behave. This is what men do when they aspire to the knowledge of gods. In the word of Oliver Cromwell:-

'I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ: Think it possible you may be mistaken.'

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Or does that not apply to you? The laws are only laws if you agree with them?

You can't have it both ways.

By dictatorship,do you mean an unelected leader?

One who pays scant regard to the wishes of the people?

One who 'does his own thing' with little regard for the people?

Someone like Gordon Brown perhaps?

Britain has had a democratically elected dictatorship for years.

They're all democratic until they get into power and then become dictators!

So do you have a problem with child murderers, children murderers, politicians, Gordon Brown or the whole fookin world in general?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The fact is we don't know what Venables did to breach the terms of his licence, so how can we comment?

The act of killing Jamie Bulger was horrific. Did they mean to do so? Did they act with the intent to kill him? We don't know. Only they know.

In Africa children are forced to join Militia Groups after having been traumatised. How do you judge something so appalling?

No matter what we say, or what opinions we hold, it can't assuage the grief of the Bulger family or indeed the parents of the two boys who murdered Jamie.

'I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ: Think it possible you may be mistaken.'"

Absolutely top post btw. Couldn't have put it better myself.

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By *ebzStarWoman
over a year ago

Notting

What i find ludicrous in this instant - is not that people stick up for these boys - but the fact they stick up them NOT knowing right from wrong!!!

Of course they knew!!!

ok - wishy saying that their van should not have been overturned by the GOOD people - how would those GOOD people feel if that van WAS overturned and that they had actually killed thoise boys??????????

It would not have brought Jamie back.

All it would have done would have added to the horrors that they would have been already suffering.

Its shit what those boys did - without a doubt - but WHATEVER happens to them - the families are never going to be at rest.

They were KIDS. Yes they knew right from Wrong. But at the end of the day - THEY DIDNT KNOW WHAT THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF THEIR ACTIONS would be.

And that is the differnce

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By *zMaleMan
over a year ago

penzance

"The law of the land states, that a child of 10 and under IS NOT, criminally reponsible for their actions.

Unfortnately, we all know that there are some 10 yr olds, that are fully aware of what they are doing and there are others who are not.

The Law has to draw a line somewhere and the Law Lords in their infinate wisdom declared it to be 10 and under."

Sorry i apologise if I have mislead you.

A child is not criminally resposible until his/her tenth birthday

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By *zMaleMan
over a year ago

penzance

Or does that not apply to you? The laws are only laws if you agree with them?

You can't have it both ways.

Most of our laws are ancient and can be traced back to the times of master and serf. The whole legal system needs an overhaul and I agree the law is an ass."

I contest what you're saying here. Yes our legal system does go back to the Magna carter BUT the laws are reviewed as society changes. I have been working in the legal profession for the last 20 odd yrs and the amount of change to the statute is staggering even in my time.

Yes there are stupid laws that are still on the statute eg an Englishman is still legally bound in certain parts of the country to carry a bow, (as in bow and arrow). The death penalty was only fully repealed about 10-15 years ago now, as until then it was still a Capital offence to commit treason, or cause arson in HM dockyard.

AT the end of the day without these Laws we would have anarchy. I know where I would be better protected!

For all but serious offenders, we should make them work the most menial tasks, which the migrants are coming over for. This way it stops the migrant workers and it helps overcrowding in the prisons and it saves the country £42,000 per prisoner per year keeping them there. The money saved could be better spent on the NHS education and public services.

Getting back to the thread Venables must have breached a major condition of his licence or it has been a culmination of minor breaches and the authorities have said enough is enough.

Yes we all want to know but it is all sub judice at the moment. I would suggest that we all want the justice system to run it's true course.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The sickeningly liberal attitude towards this scum by many on here beggars belief!!!

God,no wonder society is in the state it is when yobs rule the streets with all these bleeding heart sentiments.

What these little bastards did wasn't just naughty it was outright evil.

They didn't pinch apples ffs,they tortured a poor little tot in ways too horrible to imagine and were well old enough to know exactly what they were doing.

If I were the Bulgers,how I'd so want either of them to get in touch.

I'd welcome them to my home with open arms and send them out in a zipped up bag,which is what they fully deserve!"
SO,, reading your post correctly ,,,,,, You would execute a ten year old child ???? or two ,,, hmmmmm ,,, would be nice to know if your in a position of responsibility ??

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

sorry but having a 10yr old son ourselves we firmly believe they know right from wrong! "

They knew right from wrong, that was accepted by the court or they wouldn't have stood trial, but that doesn't mean there reasoning was fully formed or they weren't suffering from some psychosis, which is highly likely.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Fortunately most young children dont need the deterrent effect of being imprisoned to stop them committing murder, it's a very very rare occurence, when it happens it makes us examine ourselves and the society we live in, but to be honest I dont think it says much about either.

Ps: being taken out of their domestic environment, even if its an abusive one, away from their homes,, friends and schools, is very distressing for young children, so yes they will have felt it be 'punishment'.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Venables is apparently in custody for violently attacking a work colleague.

He has habitually used drugs like ecstacy and cocaine since his release, and still shows violent tendencies.

All this after being released as a supposed rehabilitated individual.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" All this after being released as a supposed rehabilitated individual."
I dont think anybody believed he'd leave custody and devote his life to the priesthood laine! This is an individual whose had a dysfunctional life from a very early age, it's been nearly 10 years since his release so he's not been in trouble for that period of time, the fact he's been recalled illustrates the system working and if the claims that are being made are true rather than speculation, then he'll probably find himself in difficulty trying to get past the Parole Board for a second time

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" All this after being released as a supposed rehabilitated individual.

I dont think anybody believed he'd leave custody and devote his life to the priesthood laine! This is an individual whose had a dysfunctional life from a very early age, it's been nearly 10 years since his release so he's not been in trouble for that period of time, the fact he's been recalled illustrates the system working and if the claims that are being made are true rather than speculation, then he'll probably find himself in difficulty trying to get past the Parole Board for a second time

prisons are suppsed to have four objectives: retribution, deterrence, rehabilitation and incapacitation.

In my humble opinion unless all four are applied equally and are shown to balance out then release is not an option.

Millions of pounds have been spent on Venables and Thompson's rehabilitation, yet as you say Venables has repeatedly shown violence and drug abuse, why wasn't he pulled off the street and incarcerated earlier?

This time though it is as an adult, and in an adult prison... how long will they be able to keep his identity hidden there?

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

" it's been nearly 10 years since his release so he's not been in trouble for that period of time,

Or he just hasn't been caught and convicted of anything.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

He's had near brushes over the years due to drug addiction and violence, on one memorable occasion a police officer even put him over the bonnet of his car. I do think that they have been asked to turn a blind eye to 'slight' misdemeanours to give him a sporting chance... or is it just to let the 'rehabilitation' look to have worked?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Been reading this thread with some interest.

In 1993 these 2 boys were found guilty of murder and sentenced to life imprisonment with a recommendation they serve a minimum of 8 years due to their ages at the time.

This was later increased to 10 and then 15 years, however these increases were adjudged to be wrong and the original sentence stood.

8 years later both were released and given anonimity to live out their respective lives on a life long licence, this meant if they broke ANY law therefore after they would be recalled and could serve the rest of their natural life behind bars.

Now reading the papers this morning the "RUMOUR" is that Jon Venables has developed a serious drug addiction since his release and is not adjusting to this new setup. He apparently was involved in a scuffle at work and was suspended. This in turn has been reported to the Courts and he was picked up.

His anonimity has gone out of the window now and whatever prison he is in will have details of his former life, this will in turn spread like wildfire around the prison.

Unless the officers of that particular prison keep him under 24hr supervision he will end up the victim of people showing the same violent tendencies as some posters to this thread.

Jon Venables was 10yrs old when he and Robert Thomson abducted and murdered Jamie Bulger, this nation was appalled by what they did and by the sentence imposed.

He was released at 18yrs old and has had severe troubles trying to remain anonymous and has since developed a dependancy to drugs. The paper I read did not mention what he is dependant on. This could be prescribed pills for stress related illness for all we know.

Remember, since 2001 there have been groups trying very hard to uncover the anonimity of both boys, one in particular lead by Ralph Bulger himself.

Yes as a father I would want retribution but 17 yrs later I think I would have buried it in the past with my son.

There is the old saying let the punishment fit the crime, but the UK has become a "Nanny" state and too many people are getting away with too much these days.

We abolished capital punishment in the 60's as it wasn't working, and the nlater we abolished corporal punishment as it wasn't working either.

Neither have been replaced with anything stronger than community service or a short prison sentence.

So where do we go from here.

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

"He's had near brushes over the years due to drug addiction and violence, on one memorable occasion a police officer even put him over the bonnet of his car. I do think that they have been asked to turn a blind eye to 'slight' misdemeanours to give him a sporting chance... or is it just to let the 'rehabilitation' look to have worked?

If that is true, then yes, it looks like a cover up to pretend the "rehabiliation" worked.

The Bulger family must feel great knowing all that time and justifiying that was spent " rehabiliating" them worked

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

Remember, since 2001 there have been groups trying very hard to uncover the anonimity of both boys, one in particular lead by Ralph Bulger himself.

Yes as a father I would want retribution but 17 yrs later I think I would have buried it in the past with my son.

I think no one could ever know what they would do if they had been in that situation to be honest.

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By *irtydanMan
over a year ago

Blackpool

So that being the case what sort of message does this send out to other so called children? do want they want get afew years locked up for it and go on shopping trips while locked up (the trafford centre) then get a new life an identity.. surely not"
dont forget the football matches as well i think they should have been left to rot in prison what they did to that child was worse than murder

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

None of my kids were brutally murdered but 15 years ago my 13yr old daughter was attacked and raped, her brother was beaten up by the same guy and his mates.

For the next 4 years of her life she was continually bullied daily at school by this persons friends.

The Police did f**k all about it and neither did the school.

I was not aware of any of this until she tried to commit suicide when she was 21 yrs old and dependent on drugs.

I have tried to track the guy down myself but he has disappeared.

I have had 7 years now to let it sleep. What good would it do to my daughters welfare if the only man left in the world she trusts was bangedup in jail for the senseless murder of a piece of scum who will get his day.

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

"None of my kids were brutally murdered but 15 years ago my 13yr old daughter was attacked and raped, her brother was beaten up by the same guy and his mates.

For the next 4 years of her life she was continually bullied daily at school by this persons friends.

The Police did f**k all about it and neither did the school.

I was not aware of any of this until she tried to commit suicide when she was 21 yrs old and dependent on drugs.

I have tried to track the guy down myself but he has disappeared.

I am not trying to trivialise what you have written but your last sentance says " what good would it do my daughter " There is a difference , your daughter is still here to watch you.

I know the dad has a new family now and everyone would hope he can live his life as near normal as he can, but I still think no one would know what they would do.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Or he just hasn't been caught and convicted of anything."

That's true, but it's a sentiment that could be equally applied to anybody we chose to point the finger at though couldn't it?

The fact is juveniles released on license from an indeterminate sentence are closely supervised by the probation service and you can imagine the police might have a natural interest in them too.

None of us as yet knows what the breach is or how this individual has been living post release since any reference to who he is or his activities in the media would breach an active court order.

But what we do know is he's subject to recall if he breaches a wide range of conditions from reoffending to failure to attend interviews with the people who are supposed to be supervising him.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Anton, i'm so sorry to hear about what your family has had to endure, I hope your daughter and yourself are now getting the support and help to enable you to move on and put those horrible incidents the past.

Best wishes for your family and yourself,

PS, I hope you can continue with the mature attitude in putting your daughters wellfare ahead of your desire for vengance.

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

"Or he just hasn't been caught and convicted of anything.

That's true, but it's a sentiment that could be equally applied to anybody we chose to point the finger at though couldn't it?

Of course, goes without saying, but most of us are not on licence.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

i personally believe there should be no segregation if all prisoners whatever their crime had to serve their time with the general prison population without the protection of segregation maybe just maybe they would think twice kev

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Or he just hasn't been caught and convicted of anything.

That's true, but it's a sentiment that could be equally applied to anybody we chose to point the finger at though couldn't it?

Of course, goes without saying, but most of us are not on licence."

I agree which is why he's supervised in the community and we're not, so I'd say the chances of him re offending and getting away with it are probably the same as Joe Public's.

The fact he's been recalled suggests that supervision is working, if he has been doing what has been suggested it's unlikely a future Parole Board will look on his appplication favourably, which would be a good outcome from my point of view

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Been reading this thread with some interest.