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Euthanasi

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

This subject has been touched upon several times in the forums in response to posts on other topics.

There's currently a Bill going through the Scottish Parliament which, if passed, would pave the way to people having the right to choose to die.

A vast number of people have been touched by the death of a loved one, so this is always an emotive topic.

I have seen a lot of people cite the Dutch system as a model for moving the law forward in this country. I have a few comments to make on this in particular:-

The dutch courts set guidleines back in the late 1980's, therse were:-

1. The patient must be experiencing unbearable pain.

2. The patient must be conscious.

3. The death request must be voluntary.

4. The patient must have been given alternatives to euthanasia and time to consider these alternatives.

5. There must be no other reasonable solutions to the problem.

6. The patient's death cannot inflict unnecessary suffering on others.

7. There must be more than one person involved in the euthanasia decision.

8. Only a doctor can euthanize a patient.

9. Great care must be taken in actually making the death decision.

Through various legal challenges in the Dutch Courts the pool of candidates has grown from the terminally ill, to the chronically ill, to those who are mentally suffering.

In 2001 the UN Human Rights Committee reported on the Holland experience. The report expressed grave concerns about the situation there.

It was concerned that the system may fail to detect and prevent situations where undue pressure could lead to these criteria being circumvented and that, with the passage of time, such a practice may lead to routinization and insensitivity to the strict application of the requirements in a way not anticipated.

With regard to children there were concerns expressed that the law is also applicable to minors who have reached the age of 12 years. The law provides for the consent of parents or guardians of juveniles up to 16 years of age, while for those between 16 and 18 the parents' or guardian's consent may be replaced by the will of the minor, provided that the minor can appropriately assess his or her interests in the matter. It considered it difficult to reconcile a reasoned decision to terminate life with the evolving and maturing capacities of minors.

The Dutch define "euthanasia" in a very limited way: "Euthanasia is understood [as] an action which aims at taking the life of another at the latter's expressed request. It concerns an action of which death is the purpose and the result." This definition applies only to voluntary euthanasia and excludes what the rest of the world refers to as non-voluntary or involuntary euthanasia, the killing of a patient without the patient's knowledge or consent. The Dutch call this "life-terminating treatment."

Some physicians use this distinction between "euthanasia" and "life-terminating treatment" to avoid having a patient's death classified as "euthanasia," thus freeing doctors from following the established euthanasia guidelines and reporting the death to local authorities.

In 1991 the Remmenlink Report was published in Holland. It found that in 1990 2,300 people died as the result of doctors killing them upon request (active, voluntary euthanasia).

400 people died as a result of doctors providing them with the means to kill themselves (physician-assisted suicide).

1,040 people (an average of 3 per day) died from involuntary euthanasia, meaning that doctors actively killed these patients without the patients' knowledge or consent.

14% of these patients were fully competent.

72% had never given any indication that they would want their lives terminated.

In 8% of the cases, doctors performed involuntary euthanasia despite the fact that they believed alternative options were still possible.

In addition, 8,100 patients died as a result of doctors deliberately giving them overdoses of pain medication, not for the primary purpose of controlling pain, but to hasten the patient's death.

In 61% of these cases (4,941 patients), the intentional overdose was given without the patient's consent.

The European Court of Human Rights have been asked several times by UK citizens to rule on this issue in their favour. The Courts have conceded that Article 8 of the Convention of Human Rights, the right to a private and family life, is capable of applying to tha final moments of someone's life. However, they have not conceded that Article 2, the right to life, can be extended to the right to die.

Currently a person has the right to refuse treatment ie ventilation or resucitation. They can be given pain relieving treatment and can die in the most dignified way in law.

The DPP in England & Wales recently issued a statement outlining the circumstances in which a person assisting the suicide of a terminally ill patient would NOT be prosecuted. These guidelines were inherently flawed as under the rules it is possible to prosecute just about anyone who assists a loved one to take their life.

Taking all things into consideration (and I too had to watch my father die) I believe that by legislating for euthanasia, even with tight guidelines, you are opening the door for legal challenges to have the law interpreted more loosely. In short, it will be the thin end of the wedge and I think that this would be dangerous for our society.

With regard to Dignitas, again frequently cited as a model to be followed, I think that it is interesting to note that even it is looking to tighten it's rules as it has become increasingly concerned about the growth and effect of euthanasia tourism.

I'm sure there will be a lot of emotive responses out there. Maybe people will give serious thoughts to all the issues so that their conclusions are objective and based on all the evidence available rather than subjective and based on their own emotions.

Over to you.

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By *leasureDomeMan
over a year ago

all over the place

I have experience of this having given up my career to nurse my terminally ill father for the last 6 months of his life.

They shoot horses when severely injured and suffering,as my father had a acute allergy to morphine he struggled with pain relief ,but was a strong guy being and being ex wartime commando was more than used to pain.

In that 6 months ,i saw him cut in two by pain,so much so that if i had possession of a gun, i openly admit i would of shot him and done the time in prison happily and without regret.

I was actually seriously considering this when mercifully they relented and gave him morphine after which he fell peacefully asleep .

yes to euthanasia but only with safeguards and consent.

pd

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By *oe_Steve_NWestCouple
over a year ago

Bolton

I have to agree with the above, I helped to nurse my Mum through her last months and wouldn't wish that kind of pain on my worst enemy - we euthenase animals as we don't want them to suffer. There would have to be strict guidlines in place and I would also like there to be a body of Doctors that could be called upon to be present to ensure that it was legitimate and to document everything. Z

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Having watched two of my family suffer appallingly before they died i totally agree with euthanasia and or assisted suicide

I do however believe there should be a watertight system in place to prevent people being forced into either xx

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I recently watched my mum suffer terribly dying from lung cancer. The last four days were horrendous as she passed in and out of rambling unaware consciousness. Everybody knew she was going to die, just not when. If there had been the option for a fatal overdose we all would have opted for it. instead she was left to live out her final hours in a hideous state, seemingly in no pain but the tension in her body was dreadful, breathing at 35 breaths a minute with a heart rate of 120BPM for the last 24 hours is something no-one should have to go through.

I agree with the last post that it needs a watertight system if it is to be allowed but in a case like my mum, I'd have injected her myself to shorten the suffering.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

easy option for me, keep it banned here and dont stop people going to Switzerland to do it.

And why would we consider prosecuting someone for assisting someone who goes to Switzerland to die when we wouldn't dream of prosecuting someone who went to another country and broke a British Law ie smoking canabis in a country where its legal, they wouldnt be charged with doing it when they got back to the UK.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I do however believe there should be a watertight system in place to prevent people being forced into either xx"

Agree with the above, and I think if you have been put in extreme circumstances of someone's quality life sometimes it's the only humaine choice you have...........

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"easy option for me, keep it banned here and don't stop people going to Switzerland to do it.

And why would we consider prosecuting someone for assisting someone who goes to Switzerland to die when we wouldn't dream of prosecuting someone who went to another country and broke a British Law ie smoking canabis in a country where its legal, they wouldnt be charged with doing it when they got back to the UK."

Jed why should a person who is critically ill and in pain have to travel to a foreign country away from their friends and family and possibly costing thousands of pounds???

The law should be changed so we can have it over here

The only people who stand in the way of these things are people who don't believe in personal choice

A little like most of the stuck up their own ass gits in parliament xx

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

yea to be honest I did go for the easy answer option, personally I do support euthanasia but would not support Doctors having to perform the task as part of thier everyday hospital duties, this should only be done on a voluntary basis by those doctors who support it.

I also think we should have appropriate hospitals designated for the purpose so that general nursing staff and hospital staff on all levels do not have to be involved in any part of it as it may be something they feel strongly against.

And because such places can have better facilities for families and the patients themselves and lots of other reasons to boring to list.

And a Panel of volunteer doctors and physchatrists to sit and decide on each application

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

by volunteer i dont mean unpaid

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"yea to be honest I did go for the easy answer option, personally I do support euthanasia but would not support Doctors having to perform the task as part of thier everyday hospital duties, this should only be done on a voluntary basis by those doctors who support it.

I also think we should have appropriate hospitals designated for the purpose so that general nursing staff and hospital staff on all levels do not have to be involved in any part of it as it may be something they feel strongly against.

And because such places can have better facilities for families and the patients themselves and lots of other reasons to boring to list.

And a Panel of volunteer doctors and physchatrists to sit and decide on each application"

Yep totally agree with that idea xx

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By (user no longer on site)
Forum Mod

over a year ago

I don't disagree with assisted suicide,in fact there are a number of diseases that if I was diagnosed with I would be booking my ticket to Austria straight away and my feelings are known by my family,but the way it works over there is that you have to be fit enough able to take the medication that kills you by yourself and understand completely what you're doing

Many people have talked about seriously ill people that are so ill and so close to the end of their life that they would'nt be able to do this or understand what they were doing

As a nurse I don't know how I would feel about administering the dose that ends a persons life

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I agree with euthenasia and suicide full stop.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

a great uncle of mine suffering from terminal cancer looked into assisted suicide planned everything as much as possible then in the end let nature take its course when asked why he had not gone through with his plan he said life is precious so even though i agree with helping people die they and us must know what they want right up till the end

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I said it before, and I would say it again.

We would end the suffering of our beloved pets, yet we cannot do that for our dearests.

Therefore, I am all for it.

However, I agree we must have clear rules about what is justifiable and what is not etc...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Having giving doctors permission to turn off my son's life support machine and watch him twitch and die in my husband's arms, not a day goes by where I don't ask if I did the right thing. The doctors told us he wouldn't have a good quality of life and when I see people recover from serious illnesses the guilt kicks in again so for me I couldn't assist someone in commiting suicide.

As for suicide? Personally I think it's a selfish act.

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod

over a year ago

O o O oo


"I recently watched my mum suffer terribly dying from lung cancer. The last four days were horrendous as she passed in and out of rambling unaware consciousness. Everybody knew she was going to die, just not when. If there had been the option for a fatal overdose we all would have opted for it. instead she was left to live out her final hours in a hideous state, seemingly in no pain but the tension in her body was dreadful, breathing at 35 breaths a minute with a heart rate of 120BPM for the last 24 hours is something no-one should have to go through.

I agree with the last post that it needs a watertight system if it is to be allowed but in a case like my mum, I'd have injected her myself to shorten the suffering."

Sadly we went through the same as you, so I echo everything you have said xxx

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Having giving doctors permission to turn off my son's life support machine and watch him twitch and die in my husband's arms, not a day goes by where I don't ask if I did the right thing. The doctors told us he wouldn't have a good quality of life and when I see people recover from serious illnesses the guilt kicks in again so for me I couldn't assist someone in commiting suicide.

As for suicide? Personally I think it's a selfish act."

I couldn't even begin to imagine what that must have been like. I have a 9m/o son and a 12y/o daughter and anything about children dying sends shivers down my spine. Parents should not outlive their children, it goes against every fibre of our being.

Wishy.

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By *i 1 Get 1 FreeCouple (MM)
over a year ago

birmingham

I'm a strong believer in euthanasia, for one, I have it in my will should I end up in a vegetable state my OH has permission to take whatever action is necessary to terminate my life, I don't believe in people should be kept alive because it's the “right thing to do”

As for those who commit suicide, they have my humble sympathy, I do not agree they are selfish, people who are selfish are in control of their minds 99.9% if the time, those who commit suicide 99.9% of the time, are not.

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By *oe_Steve_NWestCouple
over a year ago

Bolton


"Having giving doctors permission to turn off my son's life support machine and watch him twitch and die in my husband's arms, not a day goes by where I don't ask if I did the right thing. The doctors told us he wouldn't have a good quality of life and when I see people recover from serious illnesses the guilt kicks in again so for me I couldn't assist someone in commiting suicide.

As for suicide? Personally I think it's a selfish act."

That has got to be the hardest decision to make and my heart goes out to you, it was the right decision but I can understand why you'd get the odd twinge - it's terribly difficult to look back at those decisions. Z

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