FabSwingers.com forum: Trayvon Martin

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

How can things like this happen in this day and age?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What?

The incident, the trial or the verdict?

Trial by media or cultural factions?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Or maybe the democratically passed law that allowed the incident to occur, quite lawfully?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

The trial and the verdict.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You don't mention the incident. Are you suggesting there should never have been a trial?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

George Wallace with his Klu Klux Klan backers was a champion of the old Confederacy and very nearly president of the whole country only forty years ago. It's easy to forget how deeply ingrained racism is in the Southern states.

Still makes you shake your head in shame and disbelief though. Hope Obama has the balls to do something.

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By *opping_candyWoman
over a year ago

West Yorkshire

I have no idea what this is about. Off to Google!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Obamas too busy "sorting out" other races/regimes he does not like.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Surely if he was cleared.by a jury then that should be the end of it??

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"How can things like this happen in this day and age?

I was waiting on this to come up...

the problem is that florida has a "stand your ground" law... that allows you to use your gun, if you have a concealed weapons permit, if you feel that your life is threatened....

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

It does seem like some parts of the States are stuck in the Sixties....

Very worrying

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"George Wallace with his Klu Klux Klan backers was a champion of the old Confederacy and very nearly president of the whole country only forty years ago. It's easy to forget how deeply ingrained racism is in the Southern states.

Still makes you shake your head in shame and disbelief though. Hope Obama has the balls to do something."

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By *hetalkingstoveMan
over a year ago

London

"Surely if he was cleared.by a jury then that should be the end of it??"

The legal system is not perfect and we can't just shrug and accept decisions that are clearly suspect.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Surely if he was cleared.by a jury then that should be the end of it??

The legal system is not perfect and we can't just shrug and accept decisions that are clearly suspect."

How is it a suspect decision if he was cleared by a jury in court?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It does seem like some parts of the States are stuck in the Sixties....

Very worrying"

Yep, 1860's

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

George Zimmerman saw Trayvon Martin walking home suspected him of being a criminal followed him confronted him and with no witnesses present a struggle occured and shot him dead.

Trayvon Martin was unarmed and no crime was commited Zimmerman's defence was he felt threatned and a judge and jury accepted this and set him free.

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By *opping_candyWoman
over a year ago

West Yorkshire

Ok well now I know.... don't know what to make of the not-guilty verdict but then I don't know all the details.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Wasn't the he civil war was fought 150 years ago to enable Federal oversight of precisely these kind of blatantly racist state laws.

Obama needs to get all LBJ on their ass

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By *hetalkingstoveMan
over a year ago

London

"Surely if he was cleared.by a jury then that should be the end of it??

The legal system is not perfect and we can't just shrug and accept decisions that are clearly suspect.

How is it a suspect decision if he was cleared by a jury in court?"

Do you think juries are incapable of reaching an incorrect decision?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"George Zimmerman saw Trayvon Martin walking home suspected him of being a criminal followed him confronted him and with no witnesses present a struggle occured and shot him dead.

Trayvon Martin was unarmed and no crime was commited Zimmerman's defence was he felt threatned and a judge and jury accepted this and set him free."

His defence claimed he had his head smashed into.the pavement..... that in itself would be attempted murder not just feeling threatened.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Surely if he was cleared.by a jury then that should be the end of it??

The legal system is not perfect and we can't just shrug and accept decisions that are clearly suspect.

How is it a suspect decision if he was cleared by a jury in court?

Do you think juries are incapable of reaching an incorrect decision?

Not at all but whos place is it to say when.they are right or wrong? Bit pointless letting them.decide if theres going to be someone who can say theyve made the wrong choice.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"How can things like this happen in this day and age?

I was waiting on this to come up...

the problem is that florida has a "stand your ground" law... that allows you to use your gun, if you have a concealed weapons permit, if you feel that your life is threatened....

Is following and confronting someone standing your ground?

If Martin had behaved in Zimmerman's manner I could understand. I have limited knowledge of US law but I call that looking for trouble.

Why did he not call the police?

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

"George Zimmerman saw Trayvon Martin walking home suspected him of being a criminal followed him confronted him and with no witnesses present a struggle occured and shot him dead.

Trayvon Martin was unarmed and no crime was commited Zimmerman's defence was he felt threatned and a judge and jury accepted this and set him free.

His defence claimed he had his head smashed into.the pavement..... that in itself would be attempted murder not just feeling threatened."

An easy claim to make when the only witness is the guy he shot dead...

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By *hetalkingstoveMan
over a year ago

London

"Surely if he was cleared.by a jury then that should be the end of it??

The legal system is not perfect and we can't just shrug and accept decisions that are clearly suspect.

How is it a suspect decision if he was cleared by a jury in court?

Do you think juries are incapable of reaching an incorrect decision?

Not at all but whos place is it to say when.they are right or wrong? Bit pointless letting them.decide if theres going to be someone who can say theyve made the wrong choice."

It's everyone's place. You can't wall off the legal system from criticism.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You also have to remember this is "American" justice at issue.

If your unsure, look up the details of a recent unsavoury incident involving a young woman and the towns "star" footballers.

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By *isscheekychopsWoman
over a year ago

The land of grey peas and bacon

[Removed by poster at 14/07/13 23:12:07]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"George Zimmerman saw Trayvon Martin walking home suspected him of being a criminal followed him confronted him and with no witnesses present a struggle occured and shot him dead.

Trayvon Martin was unarmed and no crime was commited Zimmerman's defence was he felt threatned and a judge and jury accepted this and set him free.

His defence claimed he had his head smashed into.the pavement..... that in itself would be attempted murder not just feeling threatened.

An easy claim to make when the only witness is the guy he shot dead..."

How on earth could he be found guilty beyond all reasonable doubt then?

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"George Zimmerman saw Trayvon Martin walking home suspected him of being a criminal followed him confronted him and with no witnesses present a struggle occured and shot him dead.

Trayvon Martin was unarmed and no crime was commited Zimmerman's defence was he felt threatned and a judge and jury accepted this and set him free.

His defence claimed he had his head smashed into.the pavement..... that in itself would be attempted murder not just feeling threatened."

but martin would have been a lot smaller than zimmerman.......

the problem i have is that zimmerman wouldn't have probably followed martin if he didn't have his gun, the police told him not to follow, but he did anyway.... he profiled him as a "punk" (where does that now sound familiar) and "wouldn't get away with it"...

all martin had on him was a can of ice tea and a packet of skittles...

they probably had some altercation... but enough to have to shoot someone?? really???

anyway, we know a civil case is coming so it isn't over yet......

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By *opping_candyWoman
over a year ago

West Yorkshire

"How can things like this happen in this day and age?

I was waiting on this to come up...

the problem is that florida has a "stand your ground" law... that allows you to use your gun, if you have a concealed weapons permit, if you feel that your life is threatened....

Is following and confronting someone standing your ground?

If Martin had behaved in Zimmerman's manner I could understand. I have limited knowledge of US law but I call that looking for trouble.

Why did he not call the police?"

In the report I just read it says he did call the police though just to say Trayvon was acting suspiciously within the gated community that Zimmerman was head of neighbourhood watch for.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" blatantly racist state laws.

Are you aware of the demographics of the State of Florida?

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"How can things like this happen in this day and age?

I was waiting on this to come up...

the problem is that florida has a "stand your ground" law... that allows you to use your gun, if you have a concealed weapons permit, if you feel that your life is threatened....

Is following and confronting someone standing your ground?

If Martin had behaved in Zimmerman's manner I could understand. I have limited knowledge of US law but I call that looking for trouble.

Why did he not call the police?"

remember he did before...

the prosectcution case was actually quite week.... I was never expecting the murder charge to stick.... i was thinking more manslaughter

if they had gone for that at the beginning i think they may have gotten it.....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 14/07/13 23:11:51]

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By *yrdwomanWoman
over a year ago

Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum

If we go by what's reported over here about the United States we would think it was populated solely by fat racists who shoot first and ask questions later. Even their drama is like that. I've been there though and it's not like that at all. Although Florida is considered crazy even in the US.

We have a totally different way of thinking over here and cannot understand why it's considered OK for someone to shoot someone else they don't like the look of. I also strongly suspect that if an American came up to one of us and started questioning our legal system we would tell them to get stuffed.

Having said all that, I think the crime, the follow-up to the crime, the trial, and the verdict are a travesty, and I hate the gun 'laws' some states have in place.

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By *isscheekychopsWoman
over a year ago

The land of grey peas and bacon

I feel for Mr Martins family....how does anyone know Mr Martin was going to cause trouble and how do we not know Mr Zimmerman did not throw the first punch and mr Martin was not acting in self defence...but in the court of law me Zimmerman was innocent of any wrong doing...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"How can things like this happen in this day and age?

I was waiting on this to come up...

the problem is that florida has a "stand your ground" law... that allows you to use your gun, if you have a concealed weapons permit, if you feel that your life is threatened....

Serious question, any idea how many non middle-aged white men have successfully used that as a defence.

I can't help but think that had the circumstances been reversed and Zimmerman was dead, Martin would be looking at the death penalty.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There is no real question in this case.

It's as important in it's own way as Trebbus Bridge or Rosa Parks sitting on that bus!

Is it legal to gun someone down in cold blood because you don't like them being in your neighbourhood? And is it moral for the police and the legal psystem to protect you thereof.

It's extremely unlikely that there was an altercation - Zimmermann didn't even use it as a defence until much later. It was a murder which has been legally blessed by the state of Florida.

A sad day indeed.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I feel for Mr Martins family....how does anyone know Mr Martin was going to cause trouble and how do we not know Mr Zimmerman did not throw the first punch and mr Martin was not acting in self defence...but in the court of law me Zimmerman was innocent of any wrong doing... "

Exactly.....none of us were there

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Reports also relate that Zimmerman is categorised as being Hispanic.

Does this alter anyones preconceived notions re racism and the 1860's?

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By *isscheekychopsWoman
over a year ago

The land of grey peas and bacon

Reports also relate that Zimmerman is categorised as being Hispanic.

Does this alter anyones preconceived notions re racism and the 1860's?

Regardless of what race he is....I think what he did was bang out of order...remember that case here when that farmer went to prison because he shot the burglar dead...when he was just protecting his land...I just think Mr Zimmerman was on a power trip that night and got trigger happy

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

Reports also relate that Zimmerman is categorised as being Hispanic.

Does this alter anyones preconceived notions re racism and the 1860's?

he was actually white-hispanic mixed..

dad white, mum hispanic

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Why is it that whenever something happens between a black person and a white person the issue of race is brought up.

It was a tragic incident that lead to the death of a young man.

Whether he is guilty or not has been decided in a court of law.

(Who's gonna be the first to call me a racist)

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

Reports also relate that Zimmerman is categorised as being Hispanic.

Does this alter anyones preconceived notions re racism and the 1860's?

He is Fourth generation German immigrant born to a white father and Hispanic mother.....and no that doesn't alter my belief about the incident or the case.

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"How can things like this happen in this day and age?

I was waiting on this to come up...

the problem is that florida has a "stand your ground" law... that allows you to use your gun, if you have a concealed weapons permit, if you feel that your life is threatened....

Serious question, any idea how many non middle-aged white men have successfully used that as a defence.

I can't help but think that had the circumstances been reversed and Zimmerman was dead, Martin would be looking at the death penalty.

"stand your ground" is actually fairly commonly used in florida, I'll see if it something I can dig up, but I think it I heard it was used in 70% of shooting cases involving white people as the shooter, and 50% of shootings involving black people as the shooter

most people think zimmerman picked a fight with someone he thought he could intimidate, got his assed kicked in an altercation, and shot him.....

but beat his ass to the point where he thought his life was in danger.... really???

and thats why most thought he would get manslaughter as it could be accidental, not murder which would have to be premeditated

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Reports also relate that Zimmerman is categorised as being Hispanic.

Does this alter anyones preconceived notions re racism and the 1860's?

There was a case very similar to the tony Martin case but this time the defendant was not guilty

In fact he was hailed a hero

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The guy was put on trial and was subsequently proven not guilty by a jury of his peers. Who, i may add, heard ALL the evidence the prosecution had to offer. And not just the gruesome snippets that the media have fed us! Why have a legal system when keyboard warriors try to second guess it when they don't even know the full facts of the case?

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By *hetalkingstoveMan
over a year ago

London

Why is it that whenever something happens between a black person and a white person the issue of race is brought up.

It was a tragic incident that lead to the death of a young man.

Whether he is guilty or not has been decided in a court of law.

(Who's gonna be the first to call me a racist)

Why does race get brought up? Because racism is still a huge problem and very common.

You're sticking your head in the sand if you think there was no element of racism in the fact that a white man decided he was going to follow a black man who was doing nothing other than minding his own business.

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By *hetalkingstoveMan
over a year ago

London

"The guy was put on trial and was subsequently proven not guilty by a jury of his peers. Who, i may add, heard ALL the evidence the prosecution had to offer. And not just the gruesome snippets that the media have fed us! Why have a legal system when keyboard warriors try to second guess it when they don't even know the full facts of the case?"

We're all 'keyboard warriors', you know. We're all giving our opinions on here.

This 'the jury said not guilty therefore it's all ok' idea is just laughably naive, though.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Courts of law can make mistakes they have in the past and they will in the future. I am questioning the verdict they reached.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

American society is the most racially divided community on earth. The white middle class will never come out of gated communities nor give up their right to bear arms and "defend" themselves even if its against unarmed 17 year old children going about their lawful business.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Courts in Nazi Germany had juries too. Were they sacrosant? Courts and judiciaries can be politically manipulated, and the Southern States have long, long histories of doing just that.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We're all 'keyboard warriors', you know. We're all giving our opinions on here.

This 'the jury said not guilty therefore it's all ok' idea is just laughably naive, though."

Aaah, i see. So, having a white father and a hispanic mother makes him white because his 'victim' was black? Would he have been hispanic if the 'victim' was white? Or is that me being 'naive'? He is MIXED RACE! NOT white!

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

People are capable of making their own mind up, it doesn't make them keyboard warriors, it makes them free thinking human beings.

This wasn't a police officer who shot this young man, it wasn't even a security guard, it was a neighbourhood watch volunteer who by his own admittance during the trial had twice been turned down as a police recruit.

He was a wanabee cop, who after being told by the police when he phoned them NOT to follow the young guy into the estate but to wait for police assistance, still played 'supercop'.

He went looking for it.....and a young man dies because of it

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Why is it that whenever something happens between a black person and a white person the issue of race is brought up.

It was a tragic incident that lead to the death of a young man.

Whether he is guilty or not has been decided in a court of law.

(Who's gonna be the first to call me a racist)

Why does race get brought up? Because racism is still a huge problem and very common.

So by your logic, whenever there's an incident between a white person and a black person it's down to racism?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"People are capable of making their own mind up, it doesn't make them keyboard warriors, it makes them free thinking human beings.

He was a wanabee cop, who after being told by the police when he phoned them NOT to follow the young guy into the estate but to wait for police assistance, still played 'supercop'.

He went looking for it.....and a young man dies because of it"
Well said!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I really don't get your point.

Why does it matter if the guy was 'white" or Hispanic? Demographically, the Hispanics of Southern Florida (mostly of Cuban background) are amongst the most right-wing and racist people on the continent.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"People are capable of making their own mind up, it doesn't make them keyboard warriors, it makes them free thinking human beings.

He was a wanabee cop, who after being told by the police when he phoned them NOT to follow the young guy into the estate but to wait for police assistance, still played 'supercop'.

He went looking for it.....and a young man dies because of it"

So, according to you, people are quite capable of making their own minds up? APART FROM THE JURY THAT HEARD ALL EVIDENCE?? Aren't THEY 'free thinking human beings' then?

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

"People are capable of making their own mind up, it doesn't make them keyboard warriors, it makes them free thinking human beings.

He was a wanabee cop, who after being told by the police when he phoned them NOT to follow the young guy into the estate but to wait for police assistance, still played 'supercop'.

He went looking for it.....and a young man dies because of it

So, according to you, people are quite capable of making their own minds up? APART FROM THE JURY THAT HEARD ALL EVIDENCE?? Aren't THEY 'free thinking human beings' then?"

Did I say that?.....where exactly?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

When he called the police to say a young black male looked like trouble he said he was going to get out of his car to look ..."

The police asked him not too.

He did. He killed a 17yr old boy

Murder.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Why is it that whenever something happens between a black person and a white person the issue of race is brought up.

It was a tragic incident that lead to the death of a young man.

Whether he is guilty or not has been decided in a court of law.

(Who's gonna be the first to call me a racist)

Why does race get brought up? Because racism is still a huge problem and very common.

So by your logic, whenever there's an incident between a white person and a black person it's down to racism?

I'm off to right a book.

Anyone think my crime Novel "50 Shades of Brown" will be a best seller?

ps i am not, unfortunately, her that wrote Haryy Potter storys

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"People are capable of making their own mind up, it doesn't make them keyboard warriors, it makes them free thinking human beings.

He was a wanabee cop, who after being told by the police when he phoned them NOT to follow the young guy into the estate but to wait for police assistance, still played 'supercop'.

He went looking for it.....and a young man dies because of it

So, according to you, people are quite capable of making their own minds up? APART FROM THE JURY THAT HEARD ALL EVIDENCE?? Aren't THEY 'free thinking human beings' then?

Did I say that?.....where exactly?

So you agree that the jury are free thinking human beings and heard ALL the evidence?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"When he called the police to say a young black male looked like trouble he said he was going to get out of his car to look ..."

The police asked him not too.

He did. He killed a 17yr old boy

Murder. "

And the defendant claimed he was attacked and shot trayvon in self defence

Me you or anyone else in this thread might not agree with that, but a jury in a court of law did.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Several posts back someone mentioned a civil trial. That will not happen. Under Florida law once he has been acquitted of the criminal charges no further legal action can be taken up against him without "new" evidence. And by the way I think that both prosecution and defense told lies as well as the media, so we will never really know what happened except that a young man is dead who had his whole life in front of him.

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

"People are capable of making their own mind up, it doesn't make them keyboard warriors, it makes them free thinking human beings.

He was a wanabee cop, who after being told by the police when he phoned them NOT to follow the young guy into the estate but to wait for police assistance, still played 'supercop'.

He went looking for it.....and a young man dies because of it

So, according to you, people are quite capable of making their own minds up? APART FROM THE JURY THAT HEARD ALL EVIDENCE?? Aren't THEY 'free thinking human beings' then?

Did I say that?.....where exactly?

So you agree that the jury are free thinking human beings and heard ALL the evidence?

When you yourself post on MANY threads on here you do so as a free thinking human being, when others do so, but you don't agree with their thinking, they are all 'Keyboard Warriors'

So your views are more worthy than theirs?.....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"People are capable of making their own mind up, it doesn't make them keyboard warriors, it makes them free thinking human beings.

He was a wanabee cop, who after being told by the police when he phoned them NOT to follow the young guy into the estate but to wait for police assistance, still played 'supercop'.

He went looking for it.....and a young man dies because of it

So, according to you, people are quite capable of making their own minds up? APART FROM THE JURY THAT HEARD ALL EVIDENCE?? Aren't THEY 'free thinking human beings' then?

Did I say that?.....where exactly?

So you agree that the jury are free thinking human beings and heard ALL the evidence?

When you yourself post on MANY threads on here you do so as a free thinking human being, when others do so, but you don't agree with their thinking, they are all 'Keyboard Warriors'

So your views are more worthy than theirs?.....

Not at all. As you said, we are all allowed our own points of view. I was just asking whether you thought the juries views, after listening to ALL the evidence from both sides were wrong? After all, aren't THEY free thinkers as well?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

APART FROM THE JURY THAT HEARD ALL EVIDENCE?? Aren't THEY 'free thinking human beings'!?"

There's a hugely persuasive case based on history, precedent and the politically whipped-up climate that they are indeed not able to make "Free-thinking" decisions. In the American South, there have been hundreds, if not thousands of such cases mired in overtly racist decisions that cannot be justified morally and often legally. The Federal appeals system is there for a reason.

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

He went looking for it.....and a young man dies because of it

So, according to you, people are quite capable of making their own minds up? APART FROM THE JURY THAT HEARD ALL EVIDENCE?? Aren't THEY 'free thinking human beings' then?"

the three words that are crucial here are

Beyond reasonable doubt

we know zimmerman killed martin....

could they proved beyond a reasonable doubt zimmerman was not protecting himself in fear of his life...... no

it is not a case of being found not guilty making him innocent... it is just a case of legally guilt beyond reasonable doubt...

not doubt the civil case is coming..... unlawful death, which the burden of proof is lower..... so we shall see....

(if anyone want a example... oj was found not guilty of murder... but found guilty in a civil suit of unlawful death)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

APART FROM THE JURY THAT HEARD ALL EVIDENCE?? Aren't THEY 'free thinking human beings'!?

But, until such a time comes and hes brought back for a re-trial, he is classed as innocent now. Whether we like it or not.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Juries are not an institutions in themselves. Dependent on the judicial system, they can be manipulated.

Do you really think that they got all the evidence from a police force who didn't even arrest the suspect for 6 weeks? They make the institutional racism at the Met look like mild buffoonery.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 15/07/13 00:39:29]

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

Winston Silcott was judged by a jury of his peers in 1987, and was found guilty after the jury heard ALL the evidence presented by the prosecution and defence, of the brutal murder of PC Keith Blakelock.

Only problem was Silcott wasn't even on the Broadwater Farm Estate on the night of the riots, the police knew this, the prosecution knew this, the defence counsel wasn't allowed to present the evidence to back this up at his trial.

The jury only heard what the police and the prosecution wanted them to hear.

In Florida in 2013 there is sworn evidence from several witnesses that they could hear the voice of a 'young black male' screaming for help....the jury instead chooses to believe the testimony of the uncle of the accused that the screams of help were in fact from his own 29 year old nephew.....he managed to hear these screams clearly even though he lives a full quarter of a mile from the scene of the 'fight'.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Juries are not an institutions in themselves. Dependent on the judicial system, they can be manipulated.

Do you really think that they got all the evidence from a police force who didn't even arrest the suspect for 6 weeks? They make the institutional racism at the Met look like mild buffoonery.

And why was he not arrestf for 6wks? Because the police said there was no case to answer. It was mass hysteria and rioting that got him arrested and subjected to a trial. Which he has subsequently been found not guilty. But, thats not good enough for some folk who want him hung, drawn and quartered because they don't agree with the decision.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Can't wait for Sharia.

Will be much quicker and simpler.

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