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"I get that Obviously But I'm asking how they can stand there and re victimise innocent vulnerable girls by cross examining them like that Maybe it's another flaw in our justice system Cos to me it stinks" On the whole the system works. Did you know cases have been sent for retrial because the judge said the defence was not good enough. That has to be worst going though two lots of evidence. | |||
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"How many defendants were there? " 12 I think... | |||
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"The girls did have to go through a re trial and give evidence all again My argument is not entirely aimed at the system I get the need for a defence lawyer But does it really need 7 of them ? And is it necessary for these girls to have to do this in a court ? Surely there should be more child friendly ways to do this" The system has improved alot, they stopped the defendant asking the questions. The judge only allows so much. Our system is based on principle that you get to choose your defence  | |||
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"How many defendants were there? 12 I think..." In which case Seven defence counsels seems reasonable.... | |||
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"How many defendants were there? 12 I think... In which case Seven defence counsels seems reasonable...." There were 7 ... But surely there should be some provision /law made for anyone under the age of 18 that says by all means cross examine but get your questions together and have one person cross examine If your daughter had been repeatedly sexually abused by hundreds of men and you had to see her being accused if lying by 7 different barristers you would be absolutely devastated ! They are kids and victims and we should never forget that | |||
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"I have just been threw a horific case at a high court. And yes the defense new all the details and the accused had told his lawyer he was guilty to everything. But still that lawyer twisted everything, called me and my witnesses liars, he even tried to bribe me with money before the trial to drop the charges. And yes I hope he cant sleep at night for what he does to people. It was humiliating! But everone has a legal right to a fair trial and a defence lawyer cannot refuse to defend someone, even if they know they are guilty as they swear an oath. But this certain lawyer can swear an oath to my arse and I even hope that one day one of his clients have hurt a friend of his. See him wriggle out of that cause he doesnt want to defend them "Why did you not voice your concerns to your own legal representative? Are you saying that a barrister directly offered you a bribe?.....really? | |||
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"Yeah he did, he phoned me and I had him on loud speaker in front of 2 friends and a police officer lol. My representation was the crown, they wernt that bothered either. The accused have more rights than the victims its a joke. The accused had 3 victims all fron different towns, didnt know each other but all amazingly our statements all coroborated each other and he still called us liars. We got a guilty verdict so im not to fussy but one of the girls was only 18 at the trial and all had happened to her wher she was 15/16. I felt bad for her, still really young in the head and couldnt cope very well. " So why did the police officer not act on it if he/she heard it on loudspeaker? Why did you not INSIST that the police act on what was an breach of the law? What barrister would risk their career to do such a thing? | |||
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"These young girls on the programme have to live with what happened to them for the rest of their lives. Some will put it behind them and move on. Others wont, because they cant. The law doesnt take in to consideration their feelings or how they will suffer in the long term, what happened to them will affect the rest of their lives, relationships etc. There is special measures for valnerable victims but nothing to do with how they are questioned etc. The law is a joke. Its about time victims were treated as victims. Sorry for ranting but this is a subject close to my heart and I especially hate how women are treated when they report rapes etc." I'm with you all the way . I work with the most vulnerable and it's sickening to see them doubly harmed by the bullshit laws we have | |||
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"Yeah he did, he phoned me and I had him on loud speaker in front of 2 friends and a police officer lol. My representation was the crown, they wernt that bothered either. The accused have more rights than the victims its a joke. The accused had 3 victims all fron different towns, didnt know each other but all amazingly our statements all coroborated each other and he still called us liars. We got a guilty verdict so im not to fussy but one of the girls was only 18 at the trial and all had happened to her wher she was 15/16. I felt bad for her, still really young in the head and couldnt cope very well. So why did the police officer not act on it if he/she heard it on loudspeaker? Why did you not INSIST that the police act on what was an breach of the law? What barrister would risk their career to do such a thing? Honestly we tried, but the legal system is twisted and look out for their own. Me and the other victims are now facing a long legal battle with the judge from our trial. Im in england now and the system works better but this all happened in scotland where the law is totally different. Dont get me wrong the police were great, it was the courts that let us down. " | |||
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"Depends though, i got wrongly accused of armed robbery a decade ago, absolute hell i went through until the case got dropped after the police eventually accepted my friends were with me that evening. A good lawyer who's prepared to battle for you is vital, but not all of them are the same." Im glad to hear that. To many innocent people being convicted and guilty people being let free. | |||
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"These young girls on the programme have to live with what happened to them for the rest of their lives. Some will put it behind them and move on. Others wont, because they cant. The law doesnt take in to consideration their feelings or how they will suffer in the long term, what happened to them will affect the rest of their lives, relationships etc. There is special measures for valnerable victims but nothing to do with how they are questioned etc. The law is a joke. Its about time victims were treated as victims. Sorry for ranting but this is a subject close to my heart and I especially hate how women are treated when they report rapes etc. I'm with you all the way . I work with the most vulnerable and it's sickening to see them doubly harmed by the bullshit laws we have " Do you, thats great, the people that worked with me through my ordeal wer amazing and I wouldnt have coped without their support. What a rewarding job. | |||
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"In a criminal case each defendant must have their own lawyer my sons were both in court on the same charge but found not guilty but 1 of them couldn't use his own lawyer as they were both from the same firm its called conflict of interest " Thats mad. I thought conflict of interest was just when man and wife had same lawyer for divorce etc. It makes sense for them both to have the same lawyer. Did their lawyers get to discuss the case with each other? | |||
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"Just watching the tv programme in ch4 about child trafficking The defenders lawyers 7 of them suggesting these girls who had been multiple raped and sexual exploited were telling lies Question I ask is How do they sleep at night ? DNA evidence . Mobile phone records and text messages all prove the men were guilty .. How come these girls have to be subjected to that ? It's criminal " Quite soundly actually. We're doing a job ...advocating. If you keep it simple then generally you can feel ok about it ...the money helps as well of course
By the way it's worth noting that prosecutors also have doubts that could just as easily eat away at them in the dead of night but I pretty sure they also sleep pretty soundly at night... | |||
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"Just watching the tv programme in ch4 about child trafficking The defenders lawyers 7 of them suggesting these girls who had been multiple raped and sexual exploited were telling lies Question I ask is How do they sleep at night ? DNA evidence . Mobile phone records and text messages all prove the men were guilty .. How come these girls have to be subjected to that ? It's criminal Quite soundly actually. We're doing a job ...advocating. If you keep it simple then generally you can feel ok about it ...the money helps as well of course
By the way it's worth noting that prosecutors also have doubts that could just as easily eat away at them in the dead of night but I pretty sure they also sleep pretty soundly at night... "So ur a defence lawyer? I couldnt. I would have to be procecution. I would rather send someone who was innocent to jail than defend monsters like them men. My friend has just switched sides, hes studying at uni and when they were doing case studies he was that sickened by some that he decided he couldnt do it. Me personally think that when it comes to working in law it shouldnt be about money it should be about making sure everyone is fairly trialed and fair sentences are spent. Im to honest to be a defence lawyer anyways lol. | |||
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"Just watching the tv programme in ch4 about child trafficking The defenders lawyers 7 of them suggesting these girls who had been multiple raped and sexual exploited were telling lies Question I ask is How do they sleep at night ? DNA evidence . Mobile phone records and text messages all prove the men were guilty .. How come these girls have to be subjected to that ? It's criminal Quite soundly actually. We're doing a job ...advocating. If you keep it simple then generally you can feel ok about it ...the money helps as well of course
By the way it's worth noting that prosecutors also have doubts that could just as easily eat away at them in the dead of night but I pretty sure they also sleep pretty soundly at night... "Maybe. But I'd like to think with the technology we have in today's society .cctv. DNA that miscarriage of justice is few and far between Lets take the case of this guy on trial now for abducting and killing the young girl Blood if hers found in his house and jeep Porn on his laptop of the vilest kind Admits to ..... Errr I knocked her over by mistake and now I've hot memory loss and can't remember where I've put her !!! Come on ... Why are we wasting millions on a trial here ? Millions and millions wasted on what is obviously a straight cut abduction and murder by a scum horrid man Yet we sit and listen to the news shaking our heads thinking why are we listening to such bullshit Send him down for life | |||
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" Maybe. But I'd like to think with the technology we have in today's society .cctv. DNA that miscarriage of justice is few and far between Lets take the case of this guy on trial now for abducting and killing the young girl Blood if hers found in his house and jeep Porn on his laptop of the vilest kind Admits to ..... Errr I knocked her over by mistake and now I've hot memory loss and can't remember where I've put her !!! Come on ... Why are we wasting millions on a trial here ? Millions and millions wasted on what is obviously a straight cut abduction and murder by a scum horrid man Yet we sit and listen to the news shaking our heads thinking why are we listening to such bullshit Send him down for life " I never heard about that one till I read the paper today. Even if what he says happened is true would it not have been better to call an ambulance/police. At least then he could have said it was an accident. When ur found with the body that excuse kinda just flew away. Sometimes I think wed get better results taking some people onto jermey kyle for a lie detector! | |||
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" Maybe. But I'd like to think with the technology we have in today's society .cctv. DNA that miscarriage of justice is few and far between Lets take the case of this guy on trial now for abducting and killing the young girl Blood if hers found in his house and jeep Porn on his laptop of the vilest kind Admits to ..... Errr I knocked her over by mistake and now I've hot memory loss and can't remember where I've put her !!! Come on ... Why are we wasting millions on a trial here ? Millions and millions wasted on what is obviously a straight cut abduction and murder by a scum horrid man Yet we sit and listen to the news shaking our heads thinking why are we listening to such bullshit Send him down for life I never heard about that one till I read the paper today. Even if what he says happened is true would it not have been better to call an ambulance/police. At least then he could have said it was an accident. When ur found with the body that excuse kinda just flew away. Sometimes I think wed get better results taking some people onto jermey kyle for a lie detector!" Because its not true .. He's murdered her and is making a mock of the system which in turn lets him get away with it in the name of justice We are too soft and pussy foot around so much bullshit it makes me sick | |||
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"I'm not defending the men accused in this case. From the sounds of things (DNA evidence etc.) it appears that they are indeed guilty. However, not everyone who is accused of a crime like this is and here is a link to a report of a woman who was jailed for repeatedly crying wolf of rape. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2284677/Compulsive-liar-Elizabeth-Jones-cried-rape-11-times-jailed.html The defence lawyers in each case obviously earned their money fairly and squarely. To go back to the original point of children and those under age being subjected to the same court experiences as an adult, someone above made a very clever suggestion. However, as it is likely to cost the courts even more money, it is unlikely the Government would implement it. Someone suggested in the case of children, there should be one lawyer specifically chosen to question the children. All the lawyers involved would inform this representative the questions that they wanted asked, and if they had a problem or a query to one of the answers, they could question this representative instead of the children, and the representative could then re-ask the question. I know it may sound too complicated here (I may not have made it as clear as it sounds in my mind) but in my opinion it sounds like a very fair way of including children in the Judicial Process. "Sounded clear to me lol. I read that story. Yes they lawyers did earn their money, I think its the ones who are defending the guilty where the problems lie. I hooe one day if I was ever wrongly accused and needed a defence lawyer he or she would put up a good fair fight for me. I personally tho would not use a lawyer who is known for dirty tricks. My favourite quote of all time. Liar liar ' and what does your daddy work as? My dads a liar! A liar? Yeah well he wears a suit and goes to court! Oh you mean a lawyer!' not true for all but still funny lol | |||
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"I'm not defending the men accused in this case. From the sounds of things (DNA evidence etc.) it appears that they are indeed guilty. However, not everyone who is accused of a crime like this is and here is a link to a report of a woman who was jailed for repeatedly crying wolf of rape. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2284677/Compulsive-liar-Elizabeth-Jones-cried-rape-11-times-jailed.html The defence lawyers in each case obviously earned their money fairly and squarely. To go back to the original point of children and those under age being subjected to the same court experiences as an adult, someone above made a very clever suggestion. However, as it is likely to cost the courts even more money, it is unlikely the Government would implement it. Someone suggested in the case of children, there should be one lawyer specifically chosen to question the children. All the lawyers involved would inform this representative the questions that they wanted asked, and if they had a problem or a query to one of the answers, they could question this representative instead of the children, and the representative could then re-ask the question. I know it may sound too complicated here (I may not have made it as clear as it sounds in my mind) but in my opinion it sounds like a very fair way of including children in the Judicial Process.
Sounded clear to me lol. I read that story. Yes they lawyers did earn their money, I think its the ones who are defending the guilty where the problems lie. I hooe one day if I was ever wrongly accused and needed a defence lawyer he or she would put up a good fair fight for me. I personally tho would not use a lawyer who is known for dirty tricks. My favourite quote of all time. Liar liar ' and what does your daddy work as? My dads a liar! A liar? Yeah well he wears a suit and goes to court! Oh you mean a lawyer!' not true for all but still funny lol"That's one of my favourite films, not just because Jim Carrey is in it, but because it cleverly shows how the legal system is manipulated
I'm not clever enough to be lawyer, but I do enjoy the theory side of it | |||
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"Ultimately, the moment a right to a defense is denied, we are on a very slippery slope. Sentencing tends tobe favourable to those who admit guilt, and conversely tends to be harsher for those who claim innocence in the face of overwhelming evidence. " I'm not saying we shouldn't allow a defence What I was saying is we shouldn't be subjecting victims to more stress and agony .. We should find a better way of questioning without the need to call them liars and have them break down in court | |||
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"Ultimately, the moment a right to a defense is denied, we are on a very slippery slope. Sentencing tends tobe favourable to those who admit guilt, and conversely tends to be harsher for those who claim innocence in the face of overwhelming evidence. I'm not saying we shouldn't allow a defence What I was saying is we shouldn't be subjecting victims to more stress and agony .. We should find a better way of questioning without the need to call them liars and have them break down in court " 
The current system is a disgrace. | |||
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"Ultimately, the moment a right to a defense is denied, we are on a very slippery slope. Sentencing tends tobe favourable to those who admit guilt, and conversely tends to be harsher for those who claim innocence in the face of overwhelming evidence. I'm not saying we shouldn't allow a defence What I was saying is we shouldn't be subjecting victims to more stress and agony .. We should find a better way of questioning without the need to call them liars and have them break down in court
The current system is a disgrace."I agree entirely !! | |||
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"The alternative is for people to try living in a country where defendants DO NOT have the right to a defence, or are given a State defender who makes no real effort to defend them in court.... They would have something to moan about then. I am grateful that we live in a country where the law affords every defendant in a criminal case decent representation, there are MANY countries where British defendants have not had a fair trial due to a stagnant counsel." Amen | |||
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"Just watching the tv programme in ch4 about child trafficking The defenders lawyers 7 of them suggesting these girls who had been multiple raped and sexual exploited were telling lies Question I ask is How do they sleep at night ? DNA evidence . Mobile phone records and text messages all prove the men were guilty .. How come these girls have to be subjected to that ? It's criminal " That is the difference between normal people and those who carry out such terrible crimes. They get justice, in most cases their victims do not. | |||
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"So what do you propose as an alternative?" I would suggest that 1 ) victims of rape/ sexual exploitation/trafficking should not have to be present in court if they chose not to do so . Video link could be appropriate. 2) these girls were questioned over and over again and called liars by 7 different barristers . In truth the girls were exploited and abused by close to 200 men .. Are we saying that to prosecute them the girls should have to be questioned 200 times??? Is that justice? 3) once the perpetrator admits guilt .. Why go through all the pain of a trial and the cost that has ? .. Plead guilty ... And your sentenced to the maximum for that crime there and then ! End of Not plead guilty to get a lesser sentence! 4) if plead not guilty and found guilty you serve an extra 50 % of your sentence 5) lets protect our most vulnerable children without the fear of seeming to be racists .. Come down hard on all predators whatever race or religion ! | |||
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"So what do you propose as an alternative? I would suggest that 1 ) victims of rape/ sexual exploitation/trafficking should not have to be present in court if they chose not to do so . Video link could be appropriate. 2) these girls were questioned over and over again and called liars by 7 different barristers . In truth the girls were exploited and abused by close to 200 men .. Are we saying that to prosecute them the girls should have to be questioned 200 times??? Is that justice? 3) once the perpetrator admits guilt .. Why go through all the pain of a trial and the cost that has ? .. Plead guilty ... And your sentenced to the maximum for that crime there and then ! End of Not plead guilty to get a lesser sentence! 4) if plead not guilty and found guilty you serve an extra 50 % of your sentence 5) lets protect our most vulnerable children without the fear of seeming to be racists .. Come down hard on all predators whatever race or religion ! " think you find if the defendant pleads guilty witnesses are not called no are the jury | |||
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"And point number 3, that doesn't make sense. People don't stand trial if they have admitted their guilt, Unless the prosecution is pushing for a different offence (eg pleads guilty to manslaughter but tried for murder), so you need to explain that one again as im not sure of the point you are making?" Sorry ill try and explain better..the man admitted on video tape that he'd had sex with her . But yet it still went to trial Once someone admits it .. That should be it !! Maybe it's extreme and no doubt ill get slated for saying it but that's my opinion Too many rights for the perp and less for the victim as it stands | |||
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"And point number 3, that doesn't make sense. People don't stand trial if they have admitted their guilt, Unless the prosecution is pushing for a different offence (eg pleads guilty to manslaughter but tried for murder), so you need to explain that one again as im not sure of the point you are making? Sorry ill try and explain better..the man admitted on video tape that he'd had sex with her . But yet it still went to trial Once someone admits it .. That should be it !! Maybe it's extreme and no doubt ill get slated for saying it but that's my opinion Too many rights for the perp and less for the victim as it stands" he may have admitted having sex with her, but that may not be what is being charged with that's why he went to trial you can sentence someone for pleading guilty to one crime and sentence for another crime | |||
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"Any child that is abused is a terrible thing or any person for that matter however through my job I have seen first hand both sides of the justice system. To say that a witness should not be thoroughly questioned is ludicrous as has been stated the witness in question isn't asked the same questions over and over by different lawyers as the judge would step in. I don't want to get bogged down in case specific details so let's just say a woman claims rape after consensual sex no alcohol or drugs involved but all DNA evidence and such are present. As an outsider you could feel sorry for the woman being cross examined by the lawyer but if the guy truly had consent he wouldn't want his life ruined by being jailed for something he did not do. Same goes for any person standing trial. The jury have to be certain that the accused (not guilty at this stage) have committed the offence. As a victim I know it's harsh but it has to be done to protect the innocent. The system works its not perfect because its human and nothing is truly black and white. " At no point have I said that the victim shouldn't be crossed examined What I am saying is that children should be protected more . Some of the language and aggressive questioning is too much for adults let alone a 14 year old girl who has been abused and exploited for a number of years. It's unfair ! | |||
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"Any child that is abused is a terrible thing or any person for that matter however through my job I have seen first hand both sides of the justice system. To say that a witness should not be thoroughly questioned is ludicrous as has been stated the witness in question isn't asked the same questions over and over by different lawyers as the judge would step in. I don't want to get bogged down in case specific details so let's just say a woman claims rape after consensual sex no alcohol or drugs involved but all DNA evidence and such are present. As an outsider you could feel sorry for the woman being cross examined by the lawyer but if the guy truly had consent he wouldn't want his life ruined by being jailed for something he did not do. Same goes for any person standing trial. The jury have to be certain that the accused (not guilty at this stage) have committed the offence. As a victim I know it's harsh but it has to be done to protect the innocent. The system works its not perfect because its human and nothing is truly black and white. At no point have I said that the victim shouldn't be crossed examined What I am saying is that children should be protected more . Some of the language and aggressive questioning is too much for adults let alone a 14 year old girl who has been abused and exploited for a number of years. It's unfair ! " But cross examination by definition is never going to be pleasant for anyone if it was it would be easy to get away with a lie. | |||
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"Any child that is abused is a terrible thing or any person for that matter however through my job I have seen first hand both sides of the justice system. To say that a witness should not be thoroughly questioned is ludicrous as has been stated the witness in question isn't asked the same questions over and over by different lawyers as the judge would step in. I don't want to get bogged down in case specific details so let's just say a woman claims rape after consensual sex no alcohol or drugs involved but all DNA evidence and such are present. As an outsider you could feel sorry for the woman being cross examined by the lawyer but if the guy truly had consent he wouldn't want his life ruined by being jailed for something he did not do. Same goes for any person standing trial. The jury have to be certain that the accused (not guilty at this stage) have committed the offence. As a victim I know it's harsh but it has to be done to protect the innocent. The system works its not perfect because its human and nothing is truly black and white. At no point have I said that the victim shouldn't be crossed examined What I am saying is that children should be protected more . Some of the language and aggressive questioning is too much for adults let alone a 14 year old girl who has been abused and exploited for a number of years. It's unfair ! But cross examination by definition is never going to be pleasant for anyone if it was it would be easy to get away with a lie." so what we do just believe that everything says is the truth | |||
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"Any child that is abused is a terrible thing or any person for that matter however through my job I have seen first hand both sides of the justice system. To say that a witness should not be thoroughly questioned is ludicrous as has been stated the witness in question isn't asked the same questions over and over by different lawyers as the judge would step in. I don't want to get bogged down in case specific details so let's just say a woman claims rape after consensual sex no alcohol or drugs involved but all DNA evidence and such are present. As an outsider you could feel sorry for the woman being cross examined by the lawyer but if the guy truly had consent he wouldn't want his life ruined by being jailed for something he did not do. Same goes for any person standing trial. The jury have to be certain that the accused (not guilty at this stage) have committed the offence. As a victim I know it's harsh but it has to be done to protect the innocent. The system works its not perfect because its human and nothing is truly black and white. At no point have I said that the victim shouldn't be crossed examined What I am saying is that children should be protected more . Some of the language and aggressive questioning is too much for adults let alone a 14 year old girl who has been abused and exploited for a number of years. It's unfair ! But cross examination by definition is never going to be pleasant for anyone if it was it would be easy to get away with a lie." Exactly my point ... It's unpleasant so why can't we do something that makes it less unpleasant . Especially for children ! | |||
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"I think I may not have made my point very clear in my other post. Cross examination will always be an unpleasant experience for both victim and defendant as the whole point in it is to either pick a hole in what's been said or to clarify something. You have to remember that. It would be impossible to change this as it would mean a fundamental change in law, human rights and not to mention biased " So you thing that aggressive questioning and telling a 12 year old girl who's vulnerable and been through hell that she is lying is acceptable ? All my point is that there is no need for prosecution to be so aggressive towards children to get to the truth How is telling someone she / he is lying going to help ? All that creates is tears and anger . A lot of these children have been part of the looked after system and already feel let down .. What could happen us that if a child can't cope the trial could break down and someone guilty walks free There must be a way around this ! Times move quick . So does technology Surely we must owe it to these children to find away to make it less painful ?? | |||
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"I think I may not have made my point very clear in my other post. Cross examination will always be an unpleasant experience for both victim and defendant as the whole point in it is to either pick a hole in what's been said or to clarify something. You have to remember that. It would be impossible to change this as it would mean a fundamental change in law, human rights and not to mention biased So you thing that aggressive questioning and telling a 12 year old girl who's vulnerable and been through hell that she is lying is acceptable ? All my point is that there is no need for prosecution to be so aggressive towards children to get to the truth How is telling someone she / he is lying going to help ? All that creates is tears and anger . A lot of these children have been part of the looked after system and already feel let down .. What could happen us that if a child can't cope the trial could break down and someone guilty walks free There must be a way around this ! Times move quick . So does technology Surely we must owe it to these children to find away to make it less painful ??" I don't like that it has to be done however the justice system is a 50/50 system ie innocent until proven guilty so however you question one you have to question the other in the same way. The prosecution will be as aggressive with the defendant as the defence will be with the alleged victim. As for children what if the defendant is a child do we then go easy on them as they are only a child. The judge is there to keep the balance and will step in if either council over steps the line or feels that the witness needs a time out. in a perfect world we would come up with a way to read | |||
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"What could happen us that if a child can't cope the trial could break down and someone guilty walks free " Not this case from what I have seen, BUT what about when children lie? it happens and they are often very unshakeable once they have told a lie. The problem in this particular case is it's actually 12 simultaneous cases, each of the 12 may have a different level of guilt and it's the defences job to try to establish that for the purpose of appropriate sentencing. Our system is not perfect, and it has to fit a lot of different circumstances, some of which make it look foolish. BUT it mostly works quite well in establishing appropriate level of guilt and fitting punishment. Some of the suggestions on this thread are quite frankly frightening. | |||
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"What could happen us that if a child can't cope the trial could break down and someone guilty walks free Not this case from what I have seen, BUT what about when children lie? it happens and they are often very unshakeable once they have told a lie. The problem in this particular case is it's actually 12 simultaneous cases, each of the 12 may have a different level of guilt and it's the defences job to try to establish that for the purpose of appropriate sentencing. Our system is not perfect, and it has to fit a lot of different circumstances, some of which make it look foolish. BUT it mostly works quite well in establishing appropriate level of guilt and fitting punishment. Some of the suggestions on this thread are quite frankly frightening." | |||
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"Obviously everyone is going to have different views on this subject and I believe that people who have not been threw this stress could not understand. There will be people who have been threw court and it was plain sailing who believe the system is fine. I being threw a horrific case myself just last month believe there are flaws. Especially for children and valunerable witnesses. I had to stand and talk about my sex life with my ex partner, which was fine but then they started asking me about my sexual history before him. Shouting at me would be the correct term. After about ten minutes of this the judge finally steped in and stoped the line of questioning as it was inapropriate and nothing to do with the trial. But it took a whole ten mins for him to step in? I also found that the defence started talking about things I may feel guilty about. Accusing me of cheating etc which was all untrue, but they use this tactic to confuse the jury so they dont know what they are actually finding someone guilty about. Asking about cheating and my sexual history had nothing to do with why we were at court. The lawyer was basically trying to find anything I mite have done to justify what my ex had done to me. " Sorry about your ordeal . My stand point is from years of experience being on both side. The justice system is not perfect as nothing written can cover every eventuality. However it is an un biased system that affords the same rights to everyone and this is key to being fair and just if you start making allowances for different things then at what point would it stop. | |||
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"The justice system is to apply justice based on a premise of innocent until proven guilty. The job of prosecution is demonstrate guilt and the job of the defence is to demonstrate reasonable doubt of guilt. The is not a system of caring it's a system of determine truth. Just because a person is accusing someone else does not mean they're telling the truth or the truth about everything. They're looking for inconsistencies in stories. All this crap about the law is an ass is normally spoken by those who don't a)understand it and b) go on what the paper said about a case today and haven't read the entire court transcript. " | |||
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"If they made it easier for children I think it would stop there. Theres no need for it to be changed for everyone. Not every case is fair and not every judge and lawyer is straight. Hence why we now have a lengthy battle with a dodgy judge. No not everyone has knowledge of the legal system but most people going threw court would or should. There was no way I was goingnto court not knowing what was going on etc. The point is these children went threw enough without then being questioned and called liars by hiwever many lawyers. The system is to find out who is lying and who is telling the truth. " NOT call people liars. Thats the job for a jury. I am talking about defence and procecution here. | |||
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"For ll those suggestion some of the remarks / thoughts are frightening All I'm doing is merely suggesting that for those who have suffered ( as these girls ) and the evidence was there to prove it There should be a better way of protecting them from further trauma and stress Those who don't understand that ... Well frankly I find that frightening" Here here. I couldnt imagine being a child and going threw all that. All the evidence etc then to be treated like that and made out to ne a liar. An adult may be able to deal with this as they understand this is how the system is but a child could not possibly understand all that. Be absoluty traumatised by the experience, which in no doubt should ever have happened to any of them in the first place. | |||
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"Radio 4 had a discussion on this What is being mooted is that all the barristers table their questions to the judge who will ensure no duplication takes place And then I think the judge asks the questions " Yeah. They arnt supposed to be able to ask the same questions so have to find another way of asking the questions. In my case the procecution ask every question they could possibly think of then leaving the defence to find another line of questioning. Without over stepping the mark. | |||
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"For ll those suggestion some of the remarks / thoughts are frightening All I'm doing is merely suggesting that for those who have suffered ( as these girls ) and the evidence was there to prove it There should be a better way of protecting them from further trauma and stress Those who don't understand that ... Well frankly I find that frightening Here here. I couldnt imagine being a child and going threw all that. All the evidence etc then to be treated like that and made out to ne a liar. An adult may be able to deal with this as they understand this is how the system is but a child could not possibly understand all that. Be absoluty traumatised by the experience, which in no doubt should ever have happened to any of them in the first place." This is all I've been trying to point out I'm not saying an over haul of the justice system is needed . Just tho k that in cases like this we need to be sensitive Yes kids can tell lies and yes there will always be people who consent However these girls were children and subjected to horrendous sexual abuse and getting justice should not be as stressful as it probably is for them On radio 5 live today a woman rang in who's sister had been abused by a teacher .. The barrister in court found out that the child's m was meticulously clean . So went down the line of ..if your mum was so clean surely when bathing you she would have noticed something !!! Are we saying that line if questioning or accusation is necessary ? | |||
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" NOT call people liars. Thats the job for a jury. I am talking about defence and procecution here. " not sure i have understood what you are saying but.. its the job of the advocate to ascertain if witnesses, defendants and the person making the accusation is or has lied.. its the juries job to enter a verdict on the basis of that.. | |||
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" NOT call people liars. Thats the job for a jury. I am talking about defence and procecution here. not sure i have understood what you are saying but.. its the job of the advocate to ascertain if witnesses, defendants and the person making the accusation is or has lied.. its the juries job to enter a verdict on the basis of that.. " Yeah the lawyer do their part but at the end of the day its the jury who decide if they are guilty or not. There is no need in court to call anyone a liar, unless they have lied and during cross examination they have slipped up. | |||
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"Just watching the tv programme in ch4 about child trafficking The defenders lawyers 7 of them suggesting these girls who had been multiple raped and sexual exploited were telling lies Question I ask is How do they sleep at night ? DNA evidence . Mobile phone records and text messages all prove the men were guilty .. How come these girls have to be subjected to that ? It's criminal " Dam you for starting this thread lol. | |||
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" NOT call people liars. Thats the job for a jury. I am talking about defence and procecution here. not sure i have understood what you are saying but.. its the job of the advocate to ascertain if witnesses, defendants and the person making the accusation is or has lied.. its the juries job to enter a verdict on the basis of that.. Yeah the lawyer do their part but at the end of the day its the jury who decide if they are guilty or not. There is no need in court to call anyone a liar, unless they have lied and during cross examination they have slipped up. " there is every need to do so if as you say its apparent during testimony, statements etc.. the nature of the adversarial system we have is to discredit the 'other side'.. its how the area is explored, if a barrister comes straight out with the term i would think they are pretty sure they can support the remark.. | |||
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"I thank god that I live in a country that has a damn good legal system, and that defending counsel is able to offer a rigorous defence, without which many innocent people would have been imprisoned over the years. Better a searching defence question be asked than a half hearted, lame approach to cross examination. Long may it continue" Wonder if you'd be saying the same if the shoe was on your foot | |||
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"I thank god that I live in a country that has a damn good legal system, and that defending counsel is able to offer a rigorous defence, without which many innocent people would have been imprisoned over the years. Better a searching defence question be asked than a half hearted, lame approach to cross examination. Long may it continue Wonder if you'd be saying the same if the shoe was on your foot " See I never used to have to much of an opinion on this until it happend to me. Until inwas in the court room and seen for myself what happens then I changed my mknd | |||
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"I thank god that I live in a country that has a damn good legal system, and that defending counsel is able to offer a rigorous defence, without which many innocent people would have been imprisoned over the years. Better a searching defence question be asked than a half hearted, lame approach to cross examination. Long may it continue Wonder if you'd be saying the same if the shoe was on your foot See I never used to have to much of an opinion on this until it happend to me. Until inwas in the court room and seen for myself what happens then I changed my mknd " I'd be interested to know if your pending legal action against a judge is civil, only I was under the impression, and I could be wrong, that a judge in a British court is immune from civil action regarding his or her conduct in court. | |||
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"Until someone guilty walks free" Would it be ok for someone innocent to be convicted?? | |||
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"I thank god that I live in a country that has a damn good legal system, and that defending counsel is able to offer a rigorous defence, without which many innocent people would have been imprisoned over the years. Better a searching defence question be asked than a half hearted, lame approach to cross examination. Long may it continue Wonder if you'd be saying the same if the shoe was on your foot See I never used to have to much of an opinion on this until it happend to me. Until inwas in the court room and seen for myself what happens then I changed my mknd I'd be interested to know if your pending legal action against a judge is civil, only I was under the impression, and I could be wrong, that a judge in a British court is immune from civil action regarding his or her conduct in court." I thought that too. Surely it would be a judicial review. So far in this thread the judge is being sued, the barrister offered a bribe and the police ignored it because they are in cahoots with the lawyers. And all being openly talked about on a public forum on a swinging site... | |||
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"I thank god that I live in a country that has a damn good legal system, and that defending counsel is able to offer a rigorous defence, without which many innocent people would have been imprisoned over the years. Better a searching defence question be asked than a half hearted, lame approach to cross examination. Long may it continue Wonder if you'd be saying the same if the shoe was on your foot o See I never used to have to much of an opinion on this until it happend to me. Until inwas in the court room and seen for myself what happens then I changed my mknd I'd be interested to know if your pending legal action against a judge is civil, only I was under the impression, and I could be wrong, that a judge in a British court is immune from civil action regarding his or her conduct in court." And yes a judge can be. It was actually the courts that told me and the other 2 girls about it and they have started the ball rolling. So he has now offered an apeal on sentencing. Laws have been changed recently regarding some types of cases and how the judge deals with it | |||
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"I thank god that I live in a country that has a damn good legal system, and that defending counsel is able to offer a rigorous defence, without which many innocent people would have been imprisoned over the years. Better a searching defence question be asked than a half hearted, lame approach to cross examination. Long may it continue Wonder if you'd be saying the same if the shoe was on your foot See I never used to have to much of an opinion on this until it happend to me. Until inwas in the court room and seen for myself what happens then I changed my mknd I'd be interested to know if your pending legal action against a judge is civil, only I was under the impression, and I could be wrong, that a judge in a British court is immune from civil action regarding his or her conduct in court. I thought that too. Surely it would be a judicial review. So far in this thread the judge is being sued, the barrister offered a bribe and the police ignored it because they are in cahoots with the lawyers. And all being openly talked about on a public forum on a swinging site... "Police didnt ignore it. It was the courts that ignored it and allowed him to continue with the case. For a change the police were quite good | |||
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"I thank god that I live in a country that has a damn good legal system, and that defending counsel is able to offer a rigorous defence, without which many innocent people would have been imprisoned over the years. Better a searching defence question be asked than a half hearted, lame approach to cross examination. Long may it continue Wonder if you'd be saying the same if the shoe was on your foot See I never used to have to much of an opinion on this until it happend to me. Until inwas in the court room and seen for myself what happens then I changed my mknd I'd be interested to know if your pending legal action against a judge is civil, only I was under the impression, and I could be wrong, that a judge in a British court is immune from civil action regarding his or her conduct in court. I thought that too. Surely it would be a judicial review. So far in this thread the judge is being sued, the barrister offered a bribe and the police ignored it because they are in cahoots with the lawyers. And all being openly talked about on a public forum on a swinging site...
Police didnt ignore it. It was the courts that ignored it and allowed him to continue with the case. For a change the police were quite good"Apart of course from the police officer who allegedly witnessed the bribe on the phone loudspeaker? What was good about him? | |||
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"The judge is actually being taken up in front of the crown office. Yes there was dodgy lawyers and judges. You cant really comment on the details of a case you know nothing about. It took me 4 years to get my case to court because of all the shit going on. What was being spoken about her was the we girls and how the system is twisted and unfair to certain people. My case has nothing to do with that, just using examples of how shit the scottish law is. And if some one innocent is convicted, can u prove they were innocent. That hapens every day and guilty people walk free. What I would like to know is how many of you have actually been threw a case of this nature? If people believe that lawyers and judges r clean as whistle and SOME dont accept bribes, well think again. But again thats not what this thread was about. Its about how these children were treated and that there should be something in place to protect them more " To be honest you have posted throughout this thread about your situation and admitted that yesterday you knew nothing if the case being discussed in the OP, so I'm not sure why it is now implied to be derailling the thread. So let me get this straight a lawyer attempted to bribe you, in front of independent witnesses including a police officer and nothing came of it? And the judge is up for a judicial review despite the accused pleading guilty? And a judicial review is not a lengthy legal battle for you. And as the only obvious reason for complaint is the, in your opinion, lenient sentance - would that not be dealt with via the court of appeal? | |||
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"Im not even going to explain. I know all about the case with the girls. The one I said I hadnt heard about was the one with the little girl who was aparently run over by accident. I dont have to explain to any one what is going on. it all on line and in the news papers. There was a lot of stuff went on and a lot of dodgy stuff that is being dealt with. And as for derailing the thread. I was making a point that it all aint as fair as it is legally supposed to be "I think its also fair to point out that the just system focuses on accounts from people in the form of statements, that very often are suffering from perceptual distortions or providing accounts for their own advantage....also known as lying. So its important that both defence and prosecution decide beyond all reasonable doubt that the person is guilty. Yes there's always an exception to rules but 25 years involved in it and never seen dishonest practice occur. Strange you believe the newspapers though ? | |||
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"Where did I say I believe whats in the papers. Lol I have a very good team that I am working with and know exactly what happened in court and what is happening now. I have seen all the things from the court. Have had my chance to read over everything there was another 2 girls involved who done the same. The papers haveprinted some stuff but not everything. Considering its mine and the other girls story in the paper and we gave them statements yes we believe it lol. Think once its all done I mite just post it all somewhere just to prove there are dodgy people in law. As I said earlier I am working with a woman on her campaign and she is using our case as an example of things not being done corectly" Think this thread has gone of the point Last comment from me Our children and young people should not be subjected to adult law and questioned aggressively There must be a way around it | |||
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"Where did I say I believe whats in the papers. Lol I have a very good team that I am working with and know exactly what happened in court and what is happening now. I have seen all the things from the court. Have had my chance to read over everything there was another 2 girls involved who done the same. The papers haveprinted some stuff but not everything. Considering its mine and the other girls story in the paper and we gave them statements yes we believe it lol. Think once its all done I mite just post it all somewhere just to prove there are dodgy people in law. As I said earlier I am working with a woman on her campaign and she is using our case as an example of things not being done corectly Think this thread has gone of the point Last comment from me Our children and young people should not be subjected to adult law and questioned aggressively There must be a way around it " You're quite right, and that's why there are systems in place for vulnerable witnesses, video links etc etc. The systems not perfect but its constantly improving and facing scrutiny | |||
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"This is what I was getting at until people decided to act like defence lawyers and question me all over again. There are special measures for valnerable witnesses but they are not always put in place. Like the young girls from that case. And something should be done about it. These children and any children should not be treated like that in court" Like I tried to point out before you don't know how these girls have been treated in court as for being questioned sorry you put it in the public forum to prove a point only fair that others can question. Otherwise we would all be gullible fools and all be locked up | |||
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"I have to say unless to are part of the legal team you know about 1% about the case. As an expert on the legal system I'm sure your aware of a case file and at the back all the unused evidence plus disclosure also what you know is from the media which lets face it isn't gospel. So again you actually know very little about the details of the case " So this post wasnt about my case? It was about the girls? Because yes if its about the girls then yeah I dont know everything but if u mean my case, which I thought umeant. I know everything. | |||
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...we finally all agree | |||
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"Until someone guilty walks free" Guilty people will on occasion walk free and innocent have been hanged.... Flawed system yes, but probably the best there is... We have a principle of innocent until proved guilty. If you have evidence of a corrupt barrister or judge you have a responsibility to pursue so that they are disbarred and if found guilty of trying to pervert the course of justice jailed. If that can happen for lying over a speeding ticket you must pursue for this alleged heinous crime involving these girls.. | |||
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