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"If I see someone liberate some food, I'll turn a blind eye. If it's taking stuff to sell on, different story. Too many struggling to feed families, but for gain... nah." How can you tell which is which? Do you quiz them? | |||
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"This comes down to money. If staff are being paid a pittance, then they need to be paid more. If people are stealing food. Then they are likely struggling with a cost of living crisis. In a lot of cases, if someone is a drug addict, something has gone badly wrong in their life and they need help. And if people have enough, in a lot of cases there wouldn't be a market for for the gangs to sell to. Really sorry for your friend. No-one should be afraid of their job" This is a very naive outlook. The majority of thefts are not food to feed themselves. Hardly anybody is stealing because of “cost of living”. In relations to Drug addicts - they usually have access to homes, food, drink and shelter. So again, stealing to sell. Yeah they need help, and it’s easy for them to get in inner city areas. Also addiction is no excuse to steal. Then small item theft is just pointless theft by people who don’t want to pay because they’re scrotes. The type of people who put a bottle of wine or some snacks down their jacket and then run and get pissed or share it with mates. Other thefts such as cigarettes, alcohol etc are by pure criminals who, again, are stealing to sell. These lot can be very violent too. In my city there’s a gang that raided Tesco, co-op and Sainsbury’s with machetes, every weekend for three weeks. They still haven’t been caught. It really irks me when people make excuses that are wildly out of touch with reality. It’s the reason why crime is so bad. (Nothing personal). Tbh everyone should be more angry about it because it’s us that are paying the price, in more ways than one. | |||
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"Those security gates where you cant leave without a receipt is one option. Ruins it for folk just browsing though. Career criminality really is scummy. Sorry your friend is experiencing this OP its not worth the risk to safety. " A friend had a huge row in Sainsbury as he couldn't exit through those gates They said he hadn't paid, yet he had. They told him he had to produce his receipt to exit and he told them, and he was correct, the self checkout asked if he wanted a receipt and he declined He then said "if I need to show a receipt, I shouldn't be given an option if I want one or not" | |||
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"This is a very naive outlook." Except, I'm married to someone who actively worked in probation and prisons for over a decade and I used to work with Crime Reduction Initiatives. "The majority of thefts are not food to feed themselves. Hardly anybody is stealing because of “cost of living”." I'm sure you can cite a source on that claim. 
"In relations to Drug addicts - they usually have access to homes, food, drink and shelter. So again, stealing to sell. Yeah they need help, and it’s easy for them to get in inner city areas. Also addiction is no excuse to steal." While I can understand the attraction of the, "They're all scrotes. Bang 'em up. Hanging too good's for 'em" philosophy it doesn't work. Please forgive the assumption, but I'm guessing you don't know or have worked with many recovering addicts. To help put this in some context. Kids coming through care or with zero qualifications get dumped out on society with no prospects or hope. They can't look after themselves, they were never taught how. Even if they are on benefits, they covers remarkably little if you're disciplined, it covers sod all if you're not. This, plus childhood trauma tends to lead to mental health issues. Accessing mental healthcare in the UK is a bloody nightmare. So people often use drink and drugs to self-medicate. Funnily enough this tends to happen to a lot of former veterans. Suddenly having no-one telling them what to do, having to wash their own clothes, sort their own meals etc. they fall to pieces and make up a large proportion of the UK's homeless. Usually with drug and alcohol problems. Put them into prison, which entrenches the issues and a sections of society that don't believe these people deserve rights and can't be trusted provides no hope and no motivation to behave better. And the cycle continues. Same with corporal punishment. Slapping someone about doesn't make them behave better it just makes them not want to get caught. Which is why education is so important Why access to social care & mental health care is important Why rehabilitation is important Why a decent social safety net is so important Why after school programs are important Why the sheer number of people having to use foodbank is a disgrace Then small item theft is just pointless theft by people who don’t want to pay because they’re scrotes. The type of people who put a bottle of wine or some snacks down their jacket and then run and get pissed or share it with mates. "It really irks me when people make excuses that are wildly out of touch with reality. It’s the reason why crime is so bad. (Nothing personal)." Actually, I'd like to see massive press and media reform so rags like the Mail, Telegraph, Sun, Express, TalkTV, Talk Radio etc. were forced to be far more honest in their coverage rather than being genuinely misleading about things and stop them from being incredibly divisive just to earn a few quid or push the prejudices of a few rich idiots. We know the draconian method os popular but it doesn't work. We know this by looking at the US. They've got the largest prison population in the world, the death penalty, will put custodial sentences on just about everything. By comparison, if you look at the Scandinavian Model society ends up a lot better off. But it involves investing in society and people. In solving the underlying issues rather than treating symptoms. But that costs money and takes time. Where people prefer to hear about numbers of coppers and nice easy statistics about arrests and convictions. | |||
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"This is a very naive outlook. Except, I'm married to someone who actively worked in probation and prisons for over a decade and I used to work with Crime Reduction Initiatives. The majority of thefts are not food to feed themselves. Hardly anybody is stealing because of “cost of living”. I'm sure you can cite a source on that claim.
In relations to Drug addicts - they usually have access to homes, food, drink and shelter. So again, stealing to sell. Yeah they need help, and it’s easy for them to get in inner city areas. Also addiction is no excuse to steal.
While I can understand the attraction of the, "They're all scrotes. Bang 'em up. Hanging too good's for 'em" philosophy it doesn't work.
Please forgive the assumption, but I'm guessing you don't know or have worked with many recovering addicts.
To help put this in some context. Kids coming through care or with zero qualifications get dumped out on society with no prospects or hope. They can't look after themselves, they were never taught how. Even if they are on benefits, they covers remarkably little if you're disciplined, it covers sod all if you're not. This, plus childhood trauma tends to lead to mental health issues. Accessing mental healthcare in the UK is a bloody nightmare. So people often use drink and drugs to self-medicate.
Funnily enough this tends to happen to a lot of former veterans. Suddenly having no-one telling them what to do, having to wash their own clothes, sort their own meals etc. they fall to pieces and make up a large proportion of the UK's homeless. Usually with drug and alcohol problems.
Put them into prison, which entrenches the issues and a sections of society that don't believe these people deserve rights and can't be trusted provides no hope and no motivation to behave better.
And the cycle continues.
Same with corporal punishment.
Slapping someone about doesn't make them behave better it just makes them not want to get caught.
Which is why education is so important
Why access to social care & mental health care is important
Why rehabilitation is important
Why a decent social safety net is so important
Why after school programs are important
Why the sheer number of people having to use foodbank is a disgrace
Then small item theft is just pointless theft by people who don’t want to pay because they’re scrotes. The type of people who put a bottle of wine or some snacks down their jacket and then run and get pissed or share it with mates.
It really irks me when people make excuses that are wildly out of touch with reality. It’s the reason why crime is so bad. (Nothing personal).
Actually, I'd like to see massive press and media reform so rags like the Mail, Telegraph, Sun, Express, TalkTV, Talk Radio etc. were forced to be far more honest in their coverage rather than being genuinely misleading about things and stop them from being incredibly divisive just to earn a few quid or push the prejudices of a few rich idiots.
We know the draconian method os popular but it doesn't work. We know this by looking at the US. They've got the largest prison population in the world, the death penalty, will put custodial sentences on just about everything.
By comparison, if you look at the Scandinavian Model society ends up a lot better off.
But it involves investing in society and people.
In solving the underlying issues rather than treating symptoms.
But that costs money and takes time. Where people prefer to hear about numbers of coppers and nice easy statistics about arrests and convictions.
"Being married to a probation officer doesn’t make you any less naive. The probation service isn’t even good in this country. 68% of offenders reoffend within 2 years (and that’s just those who are caught). So clearly it doesn’t work and the approach is wrong. Look at a country like Japan. Harsh consequences for crime - both socially and legally. And it’s the safest country in the world with the lowest crime rate. It’s nothing to do with “treat the symptoms” and all that crap. It’s to do with deterring people from crime by making sure people and their families know that m lives will be ruined if they partake in crime. Similarly look at New York in the 80’s compared to how they cleaned it up. That was the exact same thing - punish people for every crime. Even fare evasion. That reduced all crime by 90%. This country is way too soft and nobody should be going out of their way to try and justify criminality | |||
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"If I see someone liberate some food, I'll turn a blind eye. If it's taking stuff to sell on, different story. Too many struggling to feed families, but for gain... nah. How can you tell which is which? Do you quiz them?" Fairly simple. The ones who are likely to go hawking the stuff just down the road from where they have st*len it from nearly all have a cloned appearance. Weasely, scrawny, shifty looking drug addicts. It is usually written all over their appearance and demeanour. The other group, stealing for their own consumption are probably harder to spot in the store and they have to be combatted by vigilant till, aisle and security staff, if there is a will to do so. I have no objection to casual or even routine bag and trolley checks at the beginning of the checkout sequence. Secreting about the person is harder to deal with. Who is to say which represents the larger group if the smarter ones don't show out at the time? | |||
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"Being married to a probation officer doesn’t make you any less naive. The probation service isn’t even good in this country. 68% of offenders reoffend within 2 years (and that’s just those who are caught). So clearly it doesn’t work and the approach is wrong." Didn't say probation officer. The difference between thee and me is I to make sure that my opinions are evidence driven. I asked you to provide evidence for your claims. You didn't. I actively explained the reoffending cycle. Your opinion is harsher sentences. Which, doesn't work. "Look at a country like Japan. Harsh consequences for crime - both socially and legally. And it’s the safest country in the world with the lowest crime rate." Actually it's not. https://tinyurl.com/ca84k2w7 If you look at the top 5 here, most of them are Scandinavian. What they all have in common are stable governments, a very good standard of education, a high standard of living, excellent healthcare and a population with a strong tradition of obeying the law. Same is also true in Japan. Where for decades the Yakusa mostly earned by being actively involved in legitimate business. Also, Japan has a HUGE problem with stimulant addiction which is driven by the social pressures around getting into a good school, getting a good job and working long hours. "It’s nothing to do with “treat the symptoms” and all that crap. " Global evidence says you're wrong. Unlike you, I can actually both cite this evidence and have direct experience of it. You mention Giuliani's efforts to clean up New York. It didn't actually fix anything, it just tended to move the problem around. It didn't create a 90% drop in crime. In some areas of New York yes, but as a whole. No. Research shoes that while crime did go down during Giuliani's tenure, massive contributing factors were a sizable economic boom and 25% in the unemployment rate. Yes, increasingly the police dept 35% helps detection and increases arrests. But people with hope, prospects, money etc. actively commit less crime in the first place. https://tinyurl.com/4939vfpw Similarly the reason why we now have Speed Awareness courses is because straight points, fines and cameras didn't work. By educating people about why speed restrictions are in place, and the system being seen as less punitive and stigmatising saw people reduce their speed and obey they law. Rather than just leathering it and slamming on the breaks every time they see a camera. Never actually justified criminality. Just pointed out the importance of understanding wider social contexts and that simply having more police & harsher sentences doesn't actually reduce crime. You keep calling me naive. However, only one of us has shown clear experience of dealing with the actual statistics and evidence. And has provided such evidence. | |||
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https://www.college.police.uk/research/crime-reduction-toolkit/zero-tolerance-policing | |||
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"Oh and there are other people who noted that Zero Tolerance Policing doesn't work. The College of Policing
https://www.college.police.uk/research/crime-reduction-toolkit/zero-tolerance-policing"You suggest a complete shift in approach but accept the society you'd prefer is a long way off.... So what do you suggest happen before the massive shift in society is achieved?  | |||
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"Oh and there are other people who noted that Zero Tolerance Policing doesn't work. The College of Policing
https://www.college.police.uk/research/crime-reduction-toolkit/zero-tolerance-policing"Except it does work as proven multiple times in real life. Not in a hypothetical research situation | |||
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"The bottom line is there is no deterrent or punishment that works, otherwise there wouldn’t be do many repeat offenders. This applies to all crimes, not just shoplifting. Thought one of the governments pledges was to deal harshly with SL’s, thst was before they got elected, not heard anything since. I’ve just heard my friend is going to get a disciplinary for using their initiative to try & identify a group of SL’s which is absolutely disgusting, as you can imagine my blood is boiling. They could fight the disciplinary but even if they win, it’s not going to change the job that they love but also fills them with fear every time they go in, so rather than face the music it’s cheerio. An exemplary employee lost, only to be replaced by another mug, what a very sad society we’re forced to live in. Yet another example of the minority spoiiing it for the majority & victory once more for the crininals. On a more positive note their psrtner is elated at the prospect of them quitting, they too are scared one day the shop worker (not Army or similar) will be seriously injured or worse doesn’t come home. Thanks for listening, I know it won’t get the answers I want or change the situation but honestly I can’t believe what I’m writing is true. " The store management and upper management do not back up the staff, a customer threatened to stab a member of staff the customer had one of his hands in his pocket while advancing on the member of staff, staff member had nowhere to go so punched the customer. Management told him he must never punch customers because it looks bad on the store and disciplined him. | |||
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"The bottom line is there is no deterrent or punishment that works, otherwise there wouldn’t be do many repeat offenders. This applies to all crimes, not just shoplifting. Thought one of the governments pledges was to deal harshly with SL’s, thst was before they got elected, not heard anything since. I’ve just heard my friend is going to get a disciplinary for using their initiative to try & identify a group of SL’s which is absolutely disgusting, as you can imagine my blood is boiling. They could fight the disciplinary but even if they win, it’s not going to change the job that they love but also fills them with fear every time they go in, so rather than face the music it’s cheerio. An exemplary employee lost, only to be replaced by another mug, what a very sad society we’re forced to live in. Yet another example of the minority spoiiing it for the majority & victory once more for the crininals. On a more positive note their psrtner is elated at the prospect of them quitting, they too are scared one day the shop worker (not Army or similar) will be seriously injured or worse doesn’t come home. Thanks for listening, I know it won’t get the answers I want or change the situation but honestly I can’t believe what I’m writing is true. The store management and upper management do not back up the staff, a customer threatened to stab a member of staff the customer had one of his hands in his pocket while advancing on the member of staff, staff member had nowhere to go so punched the customer. Management told him he must never punch customers because it looks bad on the store and disciplined him. " Punch the manager instead? | |||
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"This is a very naive outlook. Except, I'm married to someone who actively worked in probation and prisons for over a decade and I used to work with Crime Reduction Initiatives. The majority of thefts are not food to feed themselves. Hardly anybody is stealing because of “cost of living”. I'm sure you can cite a source on that claim.
In relations to Drug addicts - they usually have access to homes, food, drink and shelter. So again, stealing to sell. Yeah they need help, and it’s easy for them to get in inner city areas. Also addiction is no excuse to steal.
While I can understand the attraction of the, "They're all scrotes. Bang 'em up. Hanging too good's for 'em" philosophy it doesn't work.
Please forgive the assumption, but I'm guessing you don't know or have worked with many recovering addicts.
To help put this in some context. Kids coming through care or with zero qualifications get dumped out on society with no prospects or hope. They can't look after themselves, they were never taught how. Even if they are on benefits, they covers remarkably little if you're disciplined, it covers sod all if you're not. This, plus childhood trauma tends to lead to mental health issues. Accessing mental healthcare in the UK is a bloody nightmare. So people often use drink and drugs to self-medicate.
Funnily enough this tends to happen to a lot of former veterans. Suddenly having no-one telling them what to do, having to wash their own clothes, sort their own meals etc. they fall to pieces and make up a large proportion of the UK's homeless. Usually with drug and alcohol problems.
Put them into prison, which entrenches the issues and a sections of society that don't believe these people deserve rights and can't be trusted provides no hope and no motivation to behave better.
And the cycle continues.
Same with corporal punishment.
Slapping someone about doesn't make them behave better it just makes them not want to get caught.
Which is why education is so important
Why access to social care & mental health care is important
Why rehabilitation is important
Why a decent social safety net is so important
Why after school programs are important
Why the sheer number of people having to use foodbank is a disgrace
Then small item theft is just pointless theft by people who don’t want to pay because they’re scrotes. The type of people who put a bottle of wine or some snacks down their jacket and then run and get pissed or share it with mates.
It really irks me when people make excuses that are wildly out of touch with reality. It’s the reason why crime is so bad. (Nothing personal).
Actually, I'd like to see massive press and media reform so rags like the Mail, Telegraph, Sun, Express, TalkTV, Talk Radio etc. were forced to be far more honest in their coverage rather than being genuinely misleading about things and stop them from being incredibly divisive just to earn a few quid or push the prejudices of a few rich idiots.
We know the draconian method os popular but it doesn't work. We know this by looking at the US. They've got the largest prison population in the world, the death penalty, will put custodial sentences on just about everything.
By comparison, if you look at the Scandinavian Model society ends up a lot better off.
But it involves investing in society and people.
In solving the underlying issues rather than treating symptoms.
But that costs money and takes time. Where people prefer to hear about numbers of coppers and nice easy statistics about arrests and convictions.
Being married to a probation officer doesn’t make you any less naive. The probation service isn’t even good in this country. 68% of offenders reoffend within 2 years (and that’s just those who are caught). So clearly it doesn’t work and the approach is wrong.
Look at a country like Japan. Harsh consequences for crime - both socially and legally. And it’s the safest country in the world with the lowest crime rate.
It’s nothing to do with “treat the symptoms” and all that crap. It’s to do with deterring people from crime by making sure people and their families know that m lives will be ruined if they partake in crime. Similarly look at New York in the 80’s compared to how they cleaned it up. That was the exact same thing - punish people for every crime. Even fare evasion. That reduced all crime by 90%.
This country is way too soft and nobody should be going out of their way to try and justify criminality
"Absolutely correct and I agree 100%. Well said. This country needs a big shake up and much tougher consequences for any crime committed | |||
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"This is a very naive outlook. Except, I'm married to someone who actively worked in probation and prisons for over a decade and I used to work with Crime Reduction Initiatives. The majority of thefts are not food to feed themselves. Hardly anybody is stealing because of “cost of living”. I'm sure you can cite a source on that claim.
In relations to Drug addicts - they usually have access to homes, food, drink and shelter. So again, stealing to sell. Yeah they need help, and it’s easy for them to get in inner city areas. Also addiction is no excuse to steal.
While I can understand the attraction of the, "They're all scrotes. Bang 'em up. Hanging too good's for 'em" philosophy it doesn't work.
Please forgive the assumption, but I'm guessing you don't know or have worked with many recovering addicts.
To help put this in some context. Kids coming through care or with zero qualifications get dumped out on society with no prospects or hope. They can't look after themselves, they were never taught how. Even if they are on benefits, they covers remarkably little if you're disciplined, it covers sod all if you're not. This, plus childhood trauma tends to lead to mental health issues. Accessing mental healthcare in the UK is a bloody nightmare. So people often use drink and drugs to self-medicate.
Funnily enough this tends to happen to a lot of former veterans. Suddenly having no-one telling them what to do, having to wash their own clothes, sort their own meals etc. they fall to pieces and make up a large proportion of the UK's homeless. Usually with drug and alcohol problems.
Put them into prison, which entrenches the issues and a sections of society that don't believe these people deserve rights and can't be trusted provides no hope and no motivation to behave better.
And the cycle continues.
Same with corporal punishment.
Slapping someone about doesn't make them behave better it just makes them not want to get caught.
Which is why education is so important
Why access to social care & mental health care is important
Why rehabilitation is important
Why a decent social safety net is so important
Why after school programs are important
Why the sheer number of people having to use foodbank is a disgrace
Then small item theft is just pointless theft by people who don’t want to pay because they’re scrotes. The type of people who put a bottle of wine or some snacks down their jacket and then run and get pissed or share it with mates.
It really irks me when people make excuses that are wildly out of touch with reality. It’s the reason why crime is so bad. (Nothing personal).
Actually, I'd like to see massive press and media reform so rags like the Mail, Telegraph, Sun, Express, TalkTV, Talk Radio etc. were forced to be far more honest in their coverage rather than being genuinely misleading about things and stop them from being incredibly divisive just to earn a few quid or push the prejudices of a few rich idiots.
We know the draconian method os popular but it doesn't work. We know this by looking at the US. They've got the largest prison population in the world, the death penalty, will put custodial sentences on just about everything.
By comparison, if you look at the Scandinavian Model society ends up a lot better off.
But it involves investing in society and people.
In solving the underlying issues rather than treating symptoms.
But that costs money and takes time. Where people prefer to hear about numbers of coppers and nice easy statistics about arrests and convictions.
Being married to a probation officer doesn’t make you any less naive. The probation service isn’t even good in this country. 68% of offenders reoffend within 2 years (and that’s just those who are caught). So clearly it doesn’t work and the approach is wrong.
Look at a country like Japan. Harsh consequences for crime - both socially and legally. And it’s the safest country in the world with the lowest crime rate.
It’s nothing to do with “treat the symptoms” and all that crap. It’s to do with deterring people from crime by making sure people and their families know that m lives will be ruined if they partake in crime. Similarly look at New York in the 80’s compared to how they cleaned it up. That was the exact same thing - punish people for every crime. Even fare evasion. That reduced all crime by 90%.
This country is way too soft and nobody should be going out of their way to try and justify criminality
Absolutely correct and I agree 100%.
Well said. This country needs a big shake up and much tougher consequences for any crime committed "This is what happens when the government focuses on easy targets such as motorists or Facebook villains at the expense of real crime and criminals. | |||
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" This is what happens when the government focuses on easy targets such as motorists or Facebook villains at the expense of real crime and criminals. " Motor crime is real. You'd have a different view if a family member had been killed on a pedestrian crossing by a d*unk driver, I think. Motor cars are lethal weapons if operated incorrectly/by morons. | |||
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" This is what happens when the government focuses on easy targets such as motorists or Facebook villains at the expense of real crime and criminals. Motor crime is real. You'd have a different view if a family member had been killed on a pedestrian crossing by a d*unk driver, I think. Motor cars are lethal weapons if operated incorrectly/by morons. " Yes, I run in terror from a car with no tax on it, yet are happy to ignore some idiot on Facebook. C’mon, less whataboutery. | |||
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"It's existed since shops where created. I love going into my local Tesco Express and have the staff unlock the box that the bag of persil washing machine tablets are in, or unlock the wire clamp holding the anti theft device on the nescafe coffee jar" really wow none of that down my way . | |||
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"The company's need to stop prosecuting the employees for trying to protect the business. 99% have a complete hands off approach to shoplifting and retail theft. If I didn't have to worry about getting fired, I'd go out in the lot when the perp was leaving and beat the ever loving $h!t out of them and then take the product back in and put it on the shelf. "And then you'd run the risk of being stabbed, beaten up by someone bigger and stronger than you, or you could be prosecuted for assault. Is that really worth a few pounds of a multi-million pound corporation's takings? | |||
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"The company's need to stop prosecuting the employees for trying to protect the business. 99% have a complete hands off approach to shoplifting and retail theft. If I didn't have to worry about getting fired, I'd go out in the lot when the perp was leaving and beat the ever loving $h!t out of them and then take the product back in and put it on the shelf.
And then you'd run the risk of being stabbed, beaten up by someone bigger and stronger than you, or you could be prosecuted for assault. Is that really worth a few pounds of a multi-million pound corporation's takings?"Not all shops are multi million pound corporations. But beating people up is not the answer. | |||
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" This is what happens when the government focuses on easy targets such as motorists or Facebook villains at the expense of real crime and criminals. Motor crime is real. You'd have a different view if a family member had been killed on a pedestrian crossing by a d*unk driver, I think. Motor cars are lethal weapons if operated incorrectly/by morons. " Exactly, that's why we should legalise guns. Let's see how far they get away with my dreamcatchers and cleansing crystals, when I pop a cap in their ass! | |||
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"The company's need to stop prosecuting the employees for trying to protect the business. 99% have a complete hands off approach to shoplifting and retail theft. If I didn't have to worry about getting fired, I'd go out in the lot when the perp was leaving and beat the ever loving $h!t out of them and then take the product back in and put it on the shelf.
And then you'd run the risk of being stabbed, beaten up by someone bigger and stronger than you, or you could be prosecuted for assault. Is that really worth a few pounds of a multi-million pound corporation's takings?"I work in one of those big box stores that regularly employ military veterans. Let some with PTSD loose on the perps. You can almost guarantee they will never offend again. As for getting beat up or stabbed, I'm not concerned. I have a CCW, and they brought a knife to a gun fight. | |||
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