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"That's confusing as Holocaust Memorial Day is on 27th January." Your right I saw it on Facebook now realise it was the states x | |||
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"That's confusing as Holocaust Memorial Day is on 27th January. Your right I saw it on Facebook now realise it was the states x" Americans, they can't manage to have Mother's or Father's Days on the right dates either. | |||
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"That's confusing as Holocaust Memorial Day is on 27th January. Your right I saw it on Facebook now realise it was the states x Americans, they can't manage to have Mother's or Father's Days on the right dates either." Lol that's about right | |||
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"That's confusing as Holocaust Memorial Day is on 27th January." International Holocaust day is the 27th of January. But the week of remembrance of the Holocaust in Israel started today. Me and J's went to Auschwitz and Auschwitz Birkenau in 2010 very movingly and emotional place. M | |||
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"That's confusing as Holocaust Memorial Day is on 27th January. International Holocaust day is the 27th of January. But the week of remembrance of the Holocaust in Israel started today. Me and J's went to Auschwitz and Auschwitz Birkenau in 2010 very movingly and emotional place. M " Thanks for that clarification. I have observed Holocaust Memorial Day for a while now but I wasn't aware of this week. | |||
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"One day I will visit Auschwitz. The Holocaust should always be remembered. The evil that men do is quite astounding " My family is from a small town near Krakow that was pretty close to Auschwitz. They were taken by the Russians to a Siberian gulag though before Berkenau was built. | |||
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"One day I will visit Auschwitz. The Holocaust should always be remembered. The evil that men do is quite astounding My family is from a small town near Krakow that was pretty close to Auschwitz. They were taken by the Russians to a Siberian gulag though before Berkenau was built." That must have been around 1939 ish there are refrances in and around Krakow about the Russians around that time being in Poland. M | |||
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"One day I will visit Auschwitz. The Holocaust should always be remembered. The evil that men do is quite astounding My family is from a small town near Krakow that was pretty close to Auschwitz. They were taken by the Russians to a Siberian gulag though before Berkenau was built. That must have been around 1939 ish there are refrances in and around Krakow about the Russians around that time being in Poland. M " It was almost immediately after the outbreak of the war. My grandmother, along with aunts and uncles were taken to Siberia (Kressy) and my grandfather, being in the army, was taken as a POW. Their story is incredible, and I'm actually considering writing a book about it at some point. | |||
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"One day I will visit Auschwitz." I can't, I just can't. It will overwhelm me. | |||
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"One day I will visit Auschwitz. I can't, I just can't. It will overwhelm me." I heard they wont let you go in alone beacuse of this.... I couldnt do it...even with someone... | |||
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"One day I will visit Auschwitz. The Holocaust should always be remembered. The evil that men do is quite astounding My family is from a small town near Krakow that was pretty close to Auschwitz. They were taken by the Russians to a Siberian gulag though before Berkenau was built. That must have been around 1939 ish there are refrances in and around Krakow about the Russians around that time being in Poland. M It was almost immediately after the outbreak of the war. My grandmother, along with aunts and uncles were taken to Siberia (Kressy) and my grandfather, being in the army, was taken as a POW. Their story is incredible, and I'm actually considering writing a book about it at some point." I would love to read it, I have studied history in depth; one of my fav things, and specifically the 2nd WW, although heinous crimes took place it is a period I would like to delve further into. | |||
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"One day I will visit Auschwitz. The Holocaust should always be remembered. The evil that men do is quite astounding " One of my daughters is visiting Auschwitz later on this month as part of her A level history study! they are spending 4 days in the area  | |||
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" Personally I would like to see the UK government arrange for every schoolchild to visit it as part of the curriculum, forget all these fancy school trips to France and Skiing trips....just bus them to Auschwitz for a few days to see for themselves the dangers of bigotry and racism. "  | |||
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"One day I will visit Auschwitz. I can't, I just can't. It will overwhelm me. I heard they wont let you go in alone beacuse of this.... I couldnt do it...even with someone..." I have been several times, its a terrible place. Even now there is a sense of horror that surrounds the place. It's also worth visiting Oscar Schindler's factory, but do that after visiting Auschwitz... | |||
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"Auschwitz is quite simply like nowhere else on this earth, when we went it was snowing which only served to make the experience more harrowing and emotional. Personally I would like to see the UK government arrange for every schoolchild to visit it as part of the curriculum, forget all these fancy school trips to France and Skiing trips....just bus them to Auschwitz for a few days to see for themselves the dangers of bigotry and racism. " agreed.. Bergen Belsen is equally a chilling, moving and frightening place to visit.. not only all young people but also all politicians too.. there and the cemetries in Flanders.. | |||
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" Personally I would like to see the UK government arrange for every schoolchild to visit it as part of the curriculum, forget all these fancy school trips to France and Skiing trips....just bus them to Auschwitz for a few days to see for themselves the dangers of bigotry and racism. " My kids (my daughter anyway) history at school included Hilter and all that happened....believe that has all changed now. I would not want my kids going somewhere like that..... | |||
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"Auschwitz is quite simply like nowhere else on this earth, when we went it was snowing which only served to make the experience more harrowing and emotional. Personally I would like to see the UK government arrange for every schoolchild to visit it as part of the curriculum, forget all these fancy school trips to France and Skiing trips....just bus them to Auschwitz for a few days to see for themselves the dangers of bigotry and racism. " The thing that gets me is that Auschwitz wasn't the worst of the camps, yet most people associate it with the holocaust. Many people have never heard of Treblinka, which was much worse. | |||
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"One day I will visit Auschwitz. The Holocaust should always be remembered. The evil that men do is quite astounding My family is from a small town near Krakow that was pretty close to Auschwitz. They were taken by the Russians to a Siberian gulag though before Berkenau was built. That must have been around 1939 ish there are refrances in and around Krakow about the Russians around that time being in Poland. M It was almost immediately after the outbreak of the war. My grandmother, along with aunts and uncles were taken to Siberia (Kressy) and my grandfather, being in the army, was taken as a POW. Their story is incredible, and I'm actually considering writing a book about it at some point. I would love to read it, I have studied history in depth; one of my fav things, and specifically the 2nd WW, although heinous crimes took place it is a period I would like to delve further into. " Take a look at the Kresy virtual museum. It was largely ignored until recently. Many Poles ended up there, most if them died. According to the site my grandparents, aunts and uncles all died there! My grandmother and the children actually escaped and made their way through Russia and eventually made it to India, my grandfather was sent to a British army unit after the Germans invaded Russian. | |||
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" Personally I would like to see the UK government arrange for every schoolchild to visit it as part of the curriculum, forget all these fancy school trips to France and Skiing trips....just bus them to Auschwitz for a few days to see for themselves the dangers of bigotry and racism. My kids (my daughter anyway) history at school included Hilter and all that happened....believe that has all changed now. I would not want my kids going somewhere like that....." I don't think it's changed much, as mine had had to study hitler as part of her A level | |||
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"One day I will visit Auschwitz. The Holocaust should always be remembered. The evil that men do is quite astounding My family is from a small town near Krakow that was pretty close to Auschwitz. They were taken by the Russians to a Siberian gulag though before Berkenau was built. That must have been around 1939 ish there are refrances in and around Krakow about the Russians around that time being in Poland. M It was almost immediately after the outbreak of the war. My grandmother, along with aunts and uncles were taken to Siberia (Kressy) and my grandfather, being in the army, was taken as a POW. Their story is incredible, and I'm actually considering writing a book about it at some point. I would love to read it, I have studied history in depth; one of my fav things, and specifically the 2nd WW, although heinous crimes took place it is a period I would like to delve further into. Take a look at the Kresy virtual museum. It was largely ignored until recently. Many Poles ended up there, most if them died. According to the site my grandparents, aunts and uncles all died there! My grandmother and the children actually escaped and made their way through Russia and eventually made it to India, my grandfather was sent to a British army unit after the Germans invaded Russian." Ok thanks my many books I haven't read as I studied it at a higher level but would always like to hear personal accounts especially passed down through families. | |||
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" Personally I would like to see the UK government arrange for every schoolchild to visit it as part of the curriculum, forget all these fancy school trips to France and Skiing trips....just bus them to Auschwitz for a few days to see for themselves the dangers of bigotry and racism. My kids (my daughter anyway) history at school included Hilter and all that happened....believe that has all changed now. I would not want my kids going somewhere like that....." Why not? It's an important part of history and the only way we'll avoid making similar mistakes is to educate our children. | |||
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"One day I will visit Auschwitz. The Holocaust should always be remembered. The evil that men do is quite astounding My family is from a small town near Krakow that was pretty close to Auschwitz. They were taken by the Russians to a Siberian gulag though before Berkenau was built. That must have been around 1939 ish there are refrances in and around Krakow about the Russians around that time being in Poland. M It was almost immediately after the outbreak of the war. My grandmother, along with aunts and uncles were taken to Siberia (Kressy) and my grandfather, being in the army, was taken as a POW. Their story is incredible, and I'm actually considering writing a book about it at some point. I would love to read it, I have studied history in depth; one of my fav things, and specifically the 2nd WW, although heinous crimes took place it is a period I would like to delve further into. Take a look at the Kresy virtual museum. It was largely ignored until recently. Many Poles ended up there, most if them died. According to the site my grandparents, aunts and uncles all died there! My grandmother and the children actually escaped and made their way through Russia and eventually made it to India, my grandfather was sent to a British army unit after the Germans invaded Russian. Ok thanks my many books I haven't read as I studied it at a higher level but would always like to hear personal accounts especially passed down through families." Not many not my! | |||
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" Personally I would like to see the UK government arrange for every schoolchild to visit it as part of the curriculum, forget all these fancy school trips to France and Skiing trips....just bus them to Auschwitz for a few days to see for themselves the dangers of bigotry and racism. My kids (my daughter anyway) history at school included Hilter and all that happened....believe that has all changed now. I would not want my kids going somewhere like that..... Why not? It's an important part of history and the only way we'll avoid making similar mistakes is to educate our children." i share that hope but the sad fact is that post '45 'we' as a species have not learnt the lessons of the holocaust.. perhaps we never shall.. | |||
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"One day I will visit Auschwitz. The Holocaust should always be remembered. The evil that men do is quite astounding My family is from a small town near Krakow that was pretty close to Auschwitz. They were taken by the Russians to a Siberian gulag though before Berkenau was built. That must have been around 1939 ish there are refrances in and around Krakow about the Russians around that time being in Poland. M It was almost immediately after the outbreak of the war. My grandmother, along with aunts and uncles were taken to Siberia (Kressy) and my grandfather, being in the army, was taken as a POW. Their story is incredible, and I'm actually considering writing a book about it at some point. I would love to read it, I have studied history in depth; one of my fav things, and specifically the 2nd WW, although heinous crimes took place it is a period I would like to delve further into. Take a look at the Kresy virtual museum. It was largely ignored until recently. Many Poles ended up there, most if them died. According to the site my grandparents, aunts and uncles all died there! My grandmother and the children actually escaped and made their way through Russia and eventually made it to India, my grandfather was sent to a British army unit after the Germans invaded Russian. Ok thanks my many books I haven't read as I studied it at a higher level but would always like to hear personal accounts especially passed down through families." The existence of Kresy is only really a recent discovery as there were few survivors and most of them remained in Russia or Poland and obviously their stories went unheard because of the communist regime. It's also important to understand the role that the Ukraine played in the holocaust too... | |||
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" Personally I would like to see the UK government arrange for every schoolchild to visit it as part of the curriculum, forget all these fancy school trips to France and Skiing trips....just bus them to Auschwitz for a few days to see for themselves the dangers of bigotry and racism. My kids (my daughter anyway) history at school included Hilter and all that happened....believe that has all changed now. I would not want my kids going somewhere like that..... Why not? It's an important part of history and the only way we'll avoid making similar mistakes is to educate our children."
I think it should be compulsory for every school child to go and witness this | |||
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" Personally I would like to see the UK government arrange for every schoolchild to visit it as part of the curriculum, forget all these fancy school trips to France and Skiing trips....just bus them to Auschwitz for a few days to see for themselves the dangers of bigotry and racism. My kids (my daughter anyway) history at school included Hilter and all that happened....believe that has all changed now. I would not want my kids going somewhere like that..... Why not? It's an important part of history and the only way we'll avoid making similar mistakes is to educate our children.
I think it should be compulsory for every school child to go and witness this "
Mine have all been, more than once... | |||
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" Personally I would like to see the UK government arrange for every schoolchild to visit it as part of the curriculum, forget all these fancy school trips to France and Skiing trips....just bus them to Auschwitz for a few days to see for themselves the dangers of bigotry and racism. My kids (my daughter anyway) history at school included Hilter and all that happened....believe that has all changed now. I would not want my kids going somewhere like that..... Why not? It's an important part of history and the only way we'll avoid making similar mistakes is to educate our children.
I think it should be compulsory for every school child to go and witness this "Om much the same way as every child should visit any place where some sort of brutality had been committed against mankind. It sure is not just about Auschwitz and Belsen... | |||
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"Auschwitz is quite simply like nowhere else on this earth, when we went it was snowing which only served to make the experience more harrowing and emotional. Personally I would like to see the UK government arrange for every schoolchild to visit it as part of the curriculum, forget all these fancy school trips to France and Skiing trips....just bus them to Auschwitz for a few days to see for themselves the dangers of bigotry and racism. agreed.. Bergen Belsen is equally a chilling, moving and frightening place to visit. I went there years ago and was the eeriest place I have every been to, took ages to shake the feeling off. not only all young people but also all politicians too.. there and the cemetries in Flanders.. " | |||
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" Personally I would like to see the UK government arrange for every schoolchild to visit it as part of the curriculum, forget all these fancy school trips to France and Skiing trips....just bus them to Auschwitz for a few days to see for themselves the dangers of bigotry and racism. My kids (my daughter anyway) history at school included Hilter and all that happened....believe that has all changed now. I would not want my kids going somewhere like that..... Why not? It's an important part of history and the only way we'll avoid making similar mistakes is to educate our children." My children do not need to go there to be educated on it..... My daughter is 27 now, she would have cried if she had went at that age! I would never agree to a trip like that knowing it would upset her.... | |||
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" Personally I would like to see the UK government arrange for every schoolchild to visit it as part of the curriculum, forget all these fancy school trips to France and Skiing trips....just bus them to Auschwitz for a few days to see for themselves the dangers of bigotry and racism. My kids (my daughter anyway) history at school included Hilter and all that happened....believe that has all changed now. I would not want my kids going somewhere like that..... Why not? It's an important part of history and the only way we'll avoid making similar mistakes is to educate our children. My children do not need to go there to be educated on it..... My daughter is 27 now, she would have cried if she had went at that age! I would never agree to a trip like that knowing it would upset her...." Actually I quite agree with you - you do not have to visit places like that to have an idea of the horrors that took place there, incidentally Cambodia and South Africa could be named there ,too. And I also believe that people should have a choice as to what they wish to see and forcing anybody including young people to _iew the horrors that man has done to another man is not the answer. | |||
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" Personally I would like to see the UK government arrange for every schoolchild to visit it as part of the curriculum, forget all these fancy school trips to France and Skiing trips....just bus them to Auschwitz for a few days to see for themselves the dangers of bigotry and racism. My kids (my daughter anyway) history at school included Hilter and all that happened....believe that has all changed now. I would not want my kids going somewhere like that..... Why not? It's an important part of history and the only way we'll avoid making similar mistakes is to educate our children. My children do not need to go there to be educated on it..... My daughter is 27 now, she would have cried if she had went at that age! I would never agree to a trip like that knowing it would upset her....Actually I quite agree with you - you do not have to visit places like that to have an idea of the horrors that took place there, incidentally Cambodia and South Africa could be named there ,too. And I also believe that people should have a choice as to what they wish to see and forcing anybody including young people to _iew the horrors that man has done to another man is not the answer." If people don't see it with their own eyes they can deny it ever happened. It's easy to dismiss things we simply read in books but you cannot argue or deny actual physical evidence. | |||
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"I was educated about it, my husband knew even more about it.....but nothing prepared us for the reality of actually visiting the place. So I truly believe that you need to go to fully appreciate the intensity of the experience. I don't believe in wrapping kids up in cotton wool about the realities of life..." Yes, go when they old enough....Old enough to understand it better... Not as a school child..... | |||
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"I was educated about it, my husband knew even more about it.....but nothing prepared us for the reality of actually visiting the place. So I truly believe that you need to go to fully appreciate the intensity of the experience. I don't believe in wrapping kids up in cotton wool about the realities of life... Yes, go when they old enough....Old enough to understand it better... Not as a school child....." Have you been? | |||
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"I was educated about it, my husband knew even more about it.....but nothing prepared us for the reality of actually visiting the place. So I truly believe that you need to go to fully appreciate the intensity of the experience. I don't believe in wrapping kids up in cotton wool about the realities of life... Yes, go when they old enough....Old enough to understand it better... Not as a school child....." And if they so choose I guess? | |||
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"Both world wars obviously have to be a part of children's education - however I think they need to be balanced with a broader history of Britain overseas to understand we weren't always the 'goodies' and to properly understand why we are what we are - our role in the slave trade for example." | |||
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" Have you been?" Already said I havent been.....and no, never going to go either! I dont need to see the place to know what went on there.... | |||
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" Personally I would like to see the UK government arrange for every schoolchild to visit it as part of the curriculum, forget all these fancy school trips to France and Skiing trips....just bus them to Auschwitz for a few days to see for themselves the dangers of bigotry and racism. My kids (my daughter anyway) history at school included Hilter and all that happened....believe that has all changed now. I would not want my kids going somewhere like that..... Why not? It's an important part of history and the only way we'll avoid making similar mistakes is to educate our children.
I think it should be compulsory for every school child to go and witness this "Only now after reading do i feel i may be ready for altzich. Ive only ever been to fort breendonk which was more of a holding camp and that was an awful experience, i was fine with the battle fields and war cemetries but im not sure school children would all be able to cope with concentration camps. Im sure some would but its a very traumatic thing to do. I do however, think that we should visit at sometime in our lives | |||
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" Have you been? Already said I havent been.....and no, never going to go either! I dont need to see the place to know what went on there...." Then you don't know what actually went on there...you just think you do. | |||
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"I was educated about it, my husband knew even more about it.....but nothing prepared us for the reality of actually visiting the place. So I truly believe that you need to go to fully appreciate the intensity of the experience. I don't believe in wrapping kids up in cotton wool about the realities of life... Yes, go when they old enough....Old enough to understand it better... Not as a school child.....And if they so choose I guess?" I wouldnt have allowed them to go there for a school trip.... There is enough bigotry and racism in recent history for my children to understand the "evil" it causes... | |||
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" Have you been? Already said I havent been.....and no, never going to go either! I dont need to see the place to know what went on there.... Then you don't know what actually went on there...you just think you do." Hm - and you were there? What an arrogant thing to assume. I visit historic sites all the time, it doesn't make me an expert on what actually happened there. I haven't been and don't feel any need to. It doesn't mean I don't care or are ignorant of the events. Why not argue that people should visit Rwanda - a country we entirely ignored during a time of need, or various others - or perhaps the slave markets on the west African coast, or the plantations in America? Good teaching can do the job - including inspiring some to take further interest if they choose to go and visit them. It doesn't need to be forced. | |||
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" Have you been? Already said I havent been.....and no, never going to go either! I dont need to see the place to know what went on there.... Then you don't know what actually went on there...you just think you do." Oh please............. | |||
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" Have you been? Already said I havent been.....and no, never going to go either! I dont need to see the place to know what went on there.... Then you don't know what actually went on there...you just think you do. Hm - and you were there? What an arrogant thing to assume. I visit historic sites all the time, it doesn't make me an expert on what actually happened there. I haven't been and don't feel any need to. It doesn't mean I don't care or are ignorant of the events. Why not argue that people should visit Rwanda - a country we entirely ignored during a time of need, or various others - or perhaps the slave markets on the west African coast, or the plantations in America? Good teaching can do the job - including inspiring some to take further interest if they choose to go and visit them. It doesn't need to be forced." Good point - for one, atrocities were committed not just in Auschwitz and Belsen! Look at Kenya in the 1950ies - in fact read Carloyn Elkin's book "Imperial Reckoning" about the Gulag run by the Birtish Armed Forces in Kenya. Also think of the between 12 and 29 million Indians killed by famine as part of British State policy in 1876, also known as the Victorian holocaust. Apart from that why on earth would you force anybody to visit a place of horror - I d consider that bullying. | |||
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" Have you been? Already said I havent been.....and no, never going to go either! I dont need to see the place to know what went on there.... Then you don't know what actually went on there...you just think you do. Hm - and you were there? What an arrogant thing to assume. I visit historic sites all the time, it doesn't make me an expert on what actually happened there. I haven't been and don't feel any need to. It doesn't mean I don't care or are ignorant of the events. Why not argue that people should visit Rwanda - a country we entirely ignored during a time of need, or various others - or perhaps the slave markets on the west African coast, or the plantations in America? Good teaching can do the job - including inspiring some to take further interest if they choose to go and visit them. It doesn't need to be forced." I was part of a British task force that liberated several camps and villages in east Africa and I have seen first hand the horrors inflicted on people by other human beings. I've heard first hand accounts from people that were in camps during the war and as I said earlier in the thread, my family is from that region of Poland. Reading these things in a book or seeing a film or documentary is nothing compared to actually going to these places... | |||
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"I was educated about it, my husband knew even more about it.....but nothing prepared us for the reality of actually visiting the place. So I truly believe that you need to go to fully appreciate the intensity of the experience. I don't believe in wrapping kids up in cotton wool about the realities of life..." So, nothing 'prepared' you for the reality of it. But you want to send KIDS there? Get a grip. Its up to us as parents to instill some sort of ethics and morallity in our kids. And sending them on 'school trips' to see sites of atrocities ISN'T ethical. Or moral!! | |||
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" Reading these things in a book or seeing a film or documentary is nothing compared to actually going to these places..." Doesnt mean we dont know what happened though, does it! | |||
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" Reading these things in a book or seeing a film or documentary is nothing compared to actually going to these places... Doesnt mean we dont know what happened though, does it!" Ask Mel Gibson... | |||
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" Reading these things in a book or seeing a film or documentary is nothing compared to actually going to these places... Doesnt mean we dont know what happened though, does it! Ask Mel Gibson..." Your just being silly now.... | |||
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" Reading these things in a book or seeing a film or documentary is nothing compared to actually going to these places... Doesnt mean we dont know what happened though, does it! Ask Mel Gibson... Your just being silly now...." Maybe or maybe there's a valid point in there. Let's agree to disagree and conclude that it was horrific and should be remembered as a warning to future generations.. | |||
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" Let's agree to disagree and conclude that it was horrific and should be remembered as a warning to future generations.." | |||
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" Have you been? Already said I havent been.....and no, never going to go either! I dont need to see the place to know what went on there.... Then you don't know what actually went on there...you just think you do. Hm - and you were there? What an arrogant thing to assume. I visit historic sites all the time, it doesn't make me an expert on what actually happened there. I haven't been and don't feel any need to. It doesn't mean I don't care or are ignorant of the events. Why not argue that people should visit Rwanda - a country we entirely ignored during a time of need, or various others - or perhaps the slave markets on the west African coast, or the plantations in America? Good teaching can do the job - including inspiring some to take further interest if they choose to go and visit them. It doesn't need to be forced. I was part of a British task force that liberated several camps and villages in east Africa and I have seen first hand the horrors inflicted on people by other human beings. I've heard first hand accounts from people that were in camps during the war and as I said earlier in the thread, my family is from that region of Poland. Reading these things in a book or seeing a film or documentary is nothing compared to actually going to these places..." Think you're missing the point. It *may* be a rich experience to visit a historical site - but who is to determine which sites are of sufficient historical bearing in relation to what children need to know? Our country simply has too much history - lots of it not particularly positive. Arguably books can be a more powerful learning experience - they allow the reader to get in the minds of writers during the actual time of events. And they're more practical than an international visit! The irony of your argument is that the value of a visit would largely depend on the written information, films and photos on display. | |||
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" Have you been? Already said I havent been.....and no, never going to go either! I dont need to see the place to know what went on there.... Then you don't know what actually went on there...you just think you do. Hm - and you were there? What an arrogant thing to assume. I visit historic sites all the time, it doesn't make me an expert on what actually happened there. I haven't been and don't feel any need to. It doesn't mean I don't care or are ignorant of the events. Why not argue that people should visit Rwanda - a country we entirely ignored during a time of need, or various others - or perhaps the slave markets on the west African coast, or the plantations in America? Good teaching can do the job - including inspiring some to take further interest if they choose to go and visit them. It doesn't need to be forced.Good point - for one, atrocities were committed not just in Auschwitz and Belsen! Look at Kenya in the 1950ies - in fact read Carloyn Elkin's book "Imperial Reckoning" about the Gulag run by the Birtish Armed Forces in Kenya. Also think of the between 12 and 29 million Indians killed by famine as part of British State policy in 1876, also known as the Victorian holocaust. Apart from that why on earth would you force anybody to visit a place of horror - I d consider that bullying. " I had never heard about the atrocities in Kenya, will have to read up on it. I thought the last bit of nastiness we committed in Africa was inventing concentration camps during the Boer War. | |||
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" Personally I would like to see the UK government arrange for every schoolchild to visit it as part of the curriculum, forget all these fancy school trips to France and Skiing trips....just bus them to Auschwitz for a few days to see for themselves the dangers of bigotry and racism. My kids (my daughter anyway) history at school included Hilter and all that happened....believe that has all changed now. I would not want my kids going somewhere like that..... Why not? It's an important part of history and the only way we'll avoid making similar mistakes is to educate our children. My children do not need to go there to be educated on it..... My daughter is 27 now, she would have cried if she had went at that age! I would never agree to a trip like that knowing it would upset her...." Whilst every parent wants to protect their child from harm and distress these places need to be seen and need to generate emotion so that it never happens again in a civilised society. Just take a moment to Think of all the children who passed through these gates and didn't come back out. Barbarick events have taken place on historic sites all over the UK at some point, but the attempts to anhilate a whole race has to be seen and preserved. It's not that long ago that mass graves were being discovered from the Serbia Croatia conflict, | |||
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"I had never heard about the atrocities in Kenya, will have to read up on it. I thought the last bit of nastiness we committed in Africa was inventing concentration camps during the Boer War." All sorts of nastiness in Africa has been attributed to British methods - including the chopping off of limbs as a punishment. Estimates for men, women and children taken from Africa as slaves 2-3 million - many who died en-route packed like cattle into ships upon which cities like Liverpool and Bristol grew rich (and others like Manchester grew rich on the cotton From slave plantations). Sugar too - a byproduct of which was Rum which was used to keep African slavers happy - along with British supplied guns to assist in obtaining more slaves. Then we wiped out slavery on the west coast.. but continued to use forced labour methods by unfair rents etc. in British ruled countries. This is history our country was directly responsible for - families, and whole cities grew wealthy from it, new industries were formed - it's very much why we are what we are today - and if it featured more in children's education it might challenge some of the narrow minded attitudes that currently exist. | |||
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"Anyone wanting a shocking but insightful read on the holocaust should try "Hitler's Willing Executioners". by Daniel Jonah Goldburg. The complicity of ordinary Germans and some eastern Europeans in wholesale ethnic cleansing is disturbing. The fact that they were so quickly welcomed back into international political institutions is alarming - and shows what a unedifying sham "democratic" politics can be. " I have a couple of questions here : 1. You are talking about " complicity of ordinary Germans and some eastern Europeans in wholesale ethnic cleansing is disturbing" Can you tell me how many Germans and Eastern Europeans were involved exactly and what percentage of the general population this would have been as surely it would not have been every German and ever Eastern European? Some 8000 Germans are known to have been killed while resisting the tyranny. 2. Although the Holocaust was a terrible, terrible event in history and one that should never be forgotten, does not holding it up as "the" holocaust leave other equally bad atrocities in the shadow? See the posts above concerning British atrocities in Kenya where one million indigenous tribes men were put into concentration camps and tortured. 3. At which point in time do you believe it useful to no longer solely reflect on one event in history and remind future generations of their forefathers's culpability for the specific atrocities - especially when equally bad points in history continue to live in said shadows and be excluded from examination? | |||
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"One day I will visit Auschwitz. I can't, I just can't. It will overwhelm me. I heard they wont let you go in alone beacuse of this.... I couldnt do it...even with someone... I have been several times, its a terrible place. Even now there is a sense of horror that surrounds the place. It's also worth visiting Oscar Schindler's factory, but do that after visiting Auschwitz..." I went to both a few years ago. Also to Thieresenstadt/Terezin. Truly humbling experience. | |||
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"Anyone wanting a shocking but insightful read on the holocaust should try "Hitler's Willing Executioners". by Daniel Jonah Goldburg. The complicity of ordinary Germans and some eastern Europeans in wholesale ethnic cleansing is disturbing. The fact that they were so quickly welcomed back into international political institutions is alarming - and shows what a unedifying sham "democratic" politics can be. I have a couple of questions here : 1. You are talking about " complicity of ordinary Germans and some eastern Europeans in wholesale ethnic cleansing is disturbing" Can you tell me how many Germans and Eastern Europeans were involved exactly and what percentage of the general population this would have been as surely it would not have been every German and ever Eastern European? Some 8000 Germans are known to have been killed while resisting the tyranny. 2. Although the Holocaust was a terrible, terrible event in history and one that should never be forgotten, does not holding it up as "the" holocaust leave other equally bad atrocities in the shadow? See the posts above concerning British atrocities in Kenya where one million indigenous tribes men were put into concentration camps and tortured. 3. At which point in time do you believe it useful to no longer solely reflect on one event in history and remind future generations of their forefathers's culpability for the specific atrocities - especially when equally bad points in history continue to live in said shadows and be excluded from examination? " Ken Follets new book gives an interesting insight into the different angles of WW2 - gives a very different German perspective. And it's a good book - but it's the second in a trilogy so maybe best to read the first one first  | |||
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"Anyone wanting a shocking but insightful read on the holocaust should try "Hitler's Willing Executioners". by Daniel Jonah Goldburg. The complicity of ordinary Germans and some eastern Europeans in wholesale ethnic cleansing is disturbing. The fact that they were so quickly welcomed back into international political institutions is alarming - and shows what a unedifying sham "democratic" politics can be. I have a couple of questions here : 1. You are talking about " complicity of ordinary Germans and some eastern Europeans in wholesale ethnic cleansing is disturbing" Can you tell me how many Germans and Eastern Europeans were involved exactly and what percentage of the general population this would have been as surely it would not have been every German and ever Eastern European? Some 8000 Germans are known to have been killed while resisting the tyranny. 2. Although the Holocaust was a terrible, terrible event in history and one that should never be forgotten, does not holding it up as "the" holocaust leave other equally bad atrocities in the shadow? See the posts above concerning British atrocities in Kenya where one million indigenous tribes men were put into concentration camps and tortured. 3. At which point in time do you believe it useful to no longer solely reflect on one event in history and remind future generations of their forefathers's culpability for the specific atrocities - especially when equally bad points in history continue to live in said shadows and be excluded from examination? " point 3 none of the other bad points in history are forgotten but you have to take the holocaust to the others. this was an event to rid the world of a race in as short a time as possible and by the most evil of methods and in what is our recent history. lets not forget Pol Pot, Idi Amin (Butcher of Uganda), Saddam Hussein, and asI posted earlier Serbian Croatian conflict with its ethnic cleansing! Stalin was also known for his barbarous activities. Slavery cannot really be considered in the same way as disgusting as it is as its purpose was not to eliminate a whole culture of the face of the planet and if Hitler had won that would have occurred. slavery has at some point in time probably been a way of life for every so called advanced peoples in there defeat of there enemies. The Holocaust was the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of approximately six million Jews by the Nazi regime. remember these were not soldiers they were men,women and children. The level of industrialized, mechanized, and automated death. Never before (and, really, never since) has a mass murder campaign been carried out with such precision and utilizing the full resources of the country. Complete systems of automated death were designed and used to maximum efficiency, with constant "improvements" and other hallmarks of the industrial revolution's manufacturing processes. Unlike all other genocides, the level of planning and execution mirrored that of an industrial assembly line process - effectively, the Holocaust manufactured mass death as a product, and sold it to its victims. some germans did try to help, and you all know the story of Oskar Schindler. on my grandfathers side most of the family escaped early 33 just after the Nazi came to power as the beatings started and the anti jewish laws came to be.. | |||
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" 2. Although the Holocaust was a terrible, terrible event in history and one that should never be forgotten, does not holding it up as "the" holocaust leave other equally bad atrocities in the shadow? See the posts above concerning British atrocities in Kenya where one million indigenous tribes men were put into concentration camps and tortured. " Whilst there have been many many other atrocities I do not think they were equal to this. The deliberate, systematic, production line (or destruction line) method of killing has never been equalled. | |||
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" The Holocaust was the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of approximately six million Jews by the Nazi regime. remember these were not soldiers they were men,women and children. The level of industrialized, mechanized, and automated death. Never before (and, really, never since) has a mass murder campaign been carried out with such precision and utilizing the full resources of the country. Complete systems of automated death were designed and used to maximum efficiency, with constant "improvements" and other hallmarks of the industrial revolution's manufacturing processes. Unlike all other genocides, the level of planning and execution mirrored that of an industrial assembly line process - effectively, the Holocaust manufactured mass death as a product, and sold it to its victims. " I completely agree with you on the the sheer enormity and extent of it! And while, as stated before, I also completely agree with the Holocaust not being forgotten, I am not sure to what extent it needs to be singled out and at what point people will be able to move on? To be more specific, I question the necessity of the subject of "the" holocaust being highlighted in primary schools for the entire year 6. Do you not think that there has to come a point in time, maybe in future, where other subjects could be included in the year 6 history lessons? PS I am basing this on the experience of school currriculum about 7 years or so ago. | |||
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"It's holocaust remembrance week this week 
"Which holocaust do you mean?  | |||
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"It's holocaust remembrance week this week
Which holocaust do you mean? "Indeed. I have the following personal experience to share : 11 year old children accused other children in their class of being "nazi" children, based on the fact that one of their parents was of German descent. The teacher did not intervene. Of course they were young children, did not know any better and probably had no concrete idea of what they were saying. But not intervening on the teacher's part was in my opinion wrong... it allowed the prejudice against one nation to continue within that small setting of one classroom. Surely there has to come a point in time where a more balanced _iew can be promoted? | |||
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"Auschwitz is quite simply like nowhere else on this earth, when we went it was snowing which only served to make the experience more harrowing and emotional. Personally I would like to see the UK government arrange for every schoolchild to visit it as part of the curriculum, forget all these fancy school trips to France and Skiing trips....just bus them to Auschwitz for a few days to see for themselves the dangers of bigotry and racism. " I totally agree I found the experience awesome. I know that some schools do the Somme visits which are to be respected but to capture the full extent of "mans inhumanity to man which made countless thousamds mourn" Auschwitz captures it all. I was personally shocked at the "emotionless tourist attitude" when signs said NO PHOTOGRAPHY the oriental videos were flashing and buzzing away.....no respect or understanding of the reality of what they were standing on . | |||
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"We have to remember that there have been many holocausts to many different peoples. Beware of modern political propaganda. " Absolutely! | |||
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"Slavery cannot really be considered in the same way as disgusting as it is as its purpose was not to eliminate a whole culture of the face of the planet and if Hitler had won that would have occurred. slavery has at some point in time probably been a way of life for every so called advanced peoples in there defeat of there enemies.." I'm in agreement with most of your comment - except for this part. The Atlantic Slave trade was a regard for people and treatment of them unlike any other form of slavery, and the British were largely responsible for the scale of it. It wasn't ever a situation similar to conquered people's from war - it was the treatment of people as lesser beings - sound familiar? It is referred to by some Africans as the African Holocaust and displaced millions of people. So while we should educate on the holocaust and take pride in our role in its defeat, it needs to be balanced with the damage done by our nation in the past and the responsibility we have as a result, given that our current wealth is based very much on our exploitation of others. | |||
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"Slavery cannot really be considered in the same way as disgusting as it is as its purpose was not to eliminate a whole culture of the face of the planet and if Hitler had won that would have occurred. slavery has at some point in time probably been a way of life for every so called advanced peoples in there defeat of there enemies.. I'm in agreement with most of your comment - except for this part. The Atlantic Slave trade was a regard for people and treatment of them unlike any other form of slavery, and the British were largely responsible for the scale of it. It wasn't ever a situation similar to conquered people's from war - it was the treatment of people as lesser beings - sound familiar? It is referred to by some Africans as the African Holocaust and displaced millions of people. So while we should educate on the holocaust and take pride in our role in its defeat, it needs to be balanced with the damage done by our nation in the past and the responsibility we have as a result, given that our current wealth is based very much on our exploitation of others." Yours is a mute point as the holocaust refers to a period of time between 39-45 when the Nazi party of germany headed by hitler systimatically went about the genocide of a particular race of people by ever increasing methods of cruelty and as efficiently as possible. They didn't stop with the Jewish people they included any one who didn't match his map of the perfect Arian, so gays, gypsies and those both physically or mentally impaired were included. Slavery was not only perpatrated by the British but by African tribes who took prisoners and realised there was a market for them. Every supposed civilised country from mainland Europe took part in plundering Africa, just as the Romans and every other top civilised empire through out history has done and don't forget the Egyptians; who also reside in Africa. No excuses for slavery but remember it has happened everywhere for a very long time and the last country to abolish it was Mauritania in 1981 and records of slavery go back to 1760 BC | |||
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"Slavery cannot really be considered in the same way as disgusting as it is as its purpose was not to eliminate a whole culture of the face of the planet and if Hitler had won that would have occurred. slavery has at some point in time probably been a way of life for every so called advanced peoples in there defeat of there enemies.. I'm in agreement with most of your comment - except for this part. The Atlantic Slave trade was a regard for people and treatment of them unlike any other form of slavery, and the British were largely responsible for the scale of it. It wasn't ever a situation similar to conquered people's from war - it was the treatment of people as lesser beings - sound familiar? It is referred to by some Africans as the African Holocaust and displaced millions of people. So while we should educate on the holocaust and take pride in our role in its defeat, it needs to be balanced with the damage done by our nation in the past and the responsibility we have as a result, given that our current wealth is based very much on our exploitation of others. Yours is a mute point as the holocaust refers to a period of time between 39-45 when the Nazi party of germany headed by hitler systimatically went about the genocide of a particular race of people by ever increasing methods of cruelty and as efficiently as possible. They didn't stop with the Jewish people they included any one who didn't match his map of the perfect Arian, so gays, gypsies and those both physically or mentally impaired were included. Slavery was not only perpatrated by the British but by African tribes who took prisoners and realised there was a market for them. Every supposed civilised country from mainland Europe took part in plundering Africa, just as the Romans and every other top civilised empire through out history has done and don't forget the Egyptians; who also reside in Africa. No excuses for slavery but remember it has happened everywhere for a very long time and the last country to abolish it was Mauritania in 1981 and records of slavery go back to 1760 BC" Which makes it a mute point how?! As I said previously the Atlantic slave trade was not the same as the slave trading in East Africa or that in parts of northern Africa - or the slave trading that occurred between different Africans - it was quite different. That you don't understand this only emphasises the need for people to be better educated about it, because it is such a key part of how we have come to be what we are as a country. It can't be excused or dismissed as a natural part of a developing civilisation, or in common with similar practices - it was a distinct practice - started by the Portugese but scaled up by the British. The regard *some* Germans had for themselves in relation to some other humans has a great deal in common with how *some* British regarded others - little more than a century before the holocaust - and did so for a far greater time period. Look into it properly and you'll find many similarities - the point to educate is that it wasn't just 'bad Germans' - we have skeletons too and they were active for a lot longer. | |||
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"Slavery cannot really be considered in the same way as disgusting as it is as its purpose was not to eliminate a whole culture of the face of the planet and if Hitler had won that would have occurred. slavery has at some point in time probably been a way of life for every so called advanced peoples in there defeat of there enemies.. I'm in agreement with most of your comment - except for this part. The Atlantic Slave trade was a regard for people and treatment of them unlike any other form of slavery, and the British were largely responsible for the scale of it. It wasn't ever a situation similar to conquered people's from war - it was the treatment of people as lesser beings - sound familiar? It is referred to by some Africans as the African Holocaust and displaced millions of people. So while we should educate on the holocaust and take pride in our role in its defeat, it needs to be balanced with the damage done by our nation in the past and the responsibility we have as a result, given that our current wealth is based very much on our exploitation of others. Yours is a mute point as the holocaust refers to a period of time between 39-45 when the Nazi party of germany headed by hitler systimatically went about the genocide of a particular race of people by ever increasing methods of cruelty and as efficiently as possible. They didn't stop with the Jewish people they included any one who didn't match his map of the perfect Arian, so gays, gypsies and those both physically or mentally impaired were included. Slavery was not only perpatrated by the British but by African tribes who took prisoners and realised there was a market for them. Every supposed civilised country from mainland Europe took part in plundering Africa, just as the Romans and every other top civilised empire through out history has done and don't forget the Egyptians; who also reside in Africa. No excuses for slavery but remember it has happened everywhere for a very long time and the last country to abolish it was Mauritania in 1981 and records of slavery go back to 1760 BC Which makes it a mute point how?! As I said previously the Atlantic slave trade was not the same as the slave trading in East Africa or that in parts of northern Africa - or the slave trading that occurred between different Africans - it was quite different. That you don't understand this only emphasises the need for people to be better educated about it, because it is such a key part of how we have come to be what we are as a country. It can't be excused or dismissed as a natural part of a developing civilisation, or in common with similar practices - it was a distinct practice - started by the Portugese but scaled up by the British. The regard *some* Germans had for themselves in relation to some other humans has a great deal in common with how *some* British regarded others - little more than a century before the holocaust - and did so for a far greater time period. Look into it properly and you'll find many similarities - the point to educate is that it wasn't just 'bad Germans' - we have skeletons too and they were active for a lot longer." Slaves were seen as property to do with as you pleased and therefor had a value as disgusting as that is. Quote below taken from Alik Shahadah Afrikan Holocaust "However, this history would be incomplete and distorted, without also reflecting on the acquiescence; collaboration, rape, genocide, slavery, corruption, and warfare that Africans, as free agents,[4] as members of nations and native religions, have also engaged in. [5] Moreover, it would be morally reprehensible to neglect the modern day trade in Africa and across the globe." I don't dispute slavery but again reiterate that the difference was that the Nazi event was to permanently remove any people other than the Arian version of A Hitler from the face of the earth and not to make a profit as the slavers and those who bought slaves did. Although some Germans did make profit from forced labour gangs, unlike Oskar Schindler. Jesse Owens the son of a slave went on to show Hitler that his ideology was far from the truth and the mere fact that Jesse Owens was there to compete showed that to some degree slavery at least had ended because as you know it still goes on. Racism however was far from over. Slavery history going back century's including BC before its abolishment was based on totally differing beliefs and values; and to think that the abolition of slavery came before equality for women shows how it continued in some form and still goes on with human trafficking etc. The sing song girls of California it is reported we're often treated worse than the slaves of the south! "Donaldine Cameron" a much forgotten and unknown period in US history. Mans inhumanity to man will sadly never stop. | |||
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"John Hawkins launched the slave trade as an international enterprise. He was a British trader and related to Sir Walter Raleigh ( a cousin, I think, but would have to check). He sailed to Sierra Leone in 1564 and took several hundred slaves. These were sold on in Hispaniola and then with that money he traded for sugar, etc, which he then brought back to England for an enormous profit. When people back home saw the money that was involved they also had the idea to go and grab some slaves - and so the international slave trade was born. Many people seem to think that because in many African cultures slavery was common then it made our involvement less terrible. Not true. This kind of slavery involved MILLIONS of humans trafficked for profit - not just a few here and there. Some estimates claim that upwards of 24 million human beings were stolen from the African continent. Approximately 11 million survived the crossing. Therefore, perhaps 13 million perished. That level of suffering did not exist within the African culture of taking slaves (often after battles prisoners would become slaves). The holocaust cannot be underestimated. Had Hitler invaded Britain when he first intended he would, most certainly, have walked all over us. The Battle of Britain, our lovely weather and the Channel are what saved us. But had that not happened then the Jews in this country would have been wiped out and there would have been little to stop him from destroying 'International Jewry' in Europe entirely. That determination to completely destroy an entire people using modern industrial methods was unheard of - and has not, hitherto, happened since. It is not just the number of lives lost, but the plan, the intent that made the Holocaust so unique. Yet, could we have seen this coming in the national psyche of Germany of the time? Well, in Germany's African colonies in 1919 they behaved in a similar fashion pretty near wiping out, with deliberate intent, the Herero people. Look it up in the internet. It makes for interesting reading. Not sure if I have spelled it correctly though." Another _iew point: By Alistair Boddy-Evans, About.com Guide The Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade began around the mid-fifteenth century when Portuguese interests in Africa moved away from the fabled deposits of gold to a much more readily available commodity -- slaves. By the seventeenth century the trade was in full swing, reaching a peak towards the end of the eighteenth century. It was a trade which was especially fruitful, since every stage of the journey could be profitable for merchants -- the infamous triangular trade. | |||
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" Another _iew point: By Alistair Boddy-Evans, About.com Guide The Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade began around the mid-fifteenth century when Portuguese interests in Africa moved away from the fabled deposits of gold to a much more readily available commodity -- slaves. By the seventeenth century the trade was in full swing, reaching a peak towards the end of the eighteenth century. It was a trade which was especially fruitful, since every stage of the journey could be profitable for merchants -- the infamous triangular trade. " But you understand that the triangular trade wasn't reference to that trade benefiting Africans? - it was a triple exploitation/benefit to the British. | |||
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"This is history our country was directly responsible for - families, and whole cities grew wealthy from it, new industries were formed - it's very much why we are what we are today - and if it featured more in children's education it might challenge some of the narrow minded attitudes that currently exist. " We also need to teach our children about William Wilberforce and how we outlawed slavery and used the then most powerful navy in the world to intercept and impound slaving ships on the high seas, a remarkably civilised action to carry out in those times. Of course the Arabs, various african tribes, americans and lots of other nationalities still carried with slavery and its still believed to go on in some parts of the world today. Its important to have balance. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wilberforce | |||
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"Visited the site of Belson very earlie place " Sorry meant earie | |||
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"This is history our country was directly responsible for - families, and whole cities grew wealthy from it, new industries were formed - it's very much why we are what we are today - and if it featured more in children's education it might challenge some of the narrow minded attitudes that currently exist. We also need to teach our children about William Wilberforce and how we outlawed slavery and used the then most powerful navy in the world to intercept and impound slaving ships on the high seas, a remarkably civilised action to carry out in those times. Of course the Arabs, various african tribes, americans and lots of other nationalities still carried with slavery and its still believed to go on in some parts of the world today. Its important to have balance. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wilberforce" Indeed. Along with how we studiously ignored the continuing trade on the east coast with just a token part of that most powerful navy in the world in presence. And then how we paradoxically enforced all manners of enforced labour through unfair rent agreements and such like. It's also important to have the whole story. | |||
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"I'm very proud of being British but not afraid to admit that our history is not as glorious as the Daily Wail would have us believe. Could the holocaust have happened here? I think, given the correct circumstances, yes." That's one of the interesting aspects to Follett's new book - it shows how precarious the balance was to this country having accepted Nazism at the time just before the war. | |||
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"History is neutral, it just is what it is and was mostly just normal at the time, it was neither good nor bad. This thread is about the holocaust but suddenly peeps seem to be vying with each other to show that no matter how bad anyone else was or is we were much worse, no mention of Pol Pot, Rwanda, The Rape of Nanking, the Burma Railroad, the 22 million dead Russians in WWII. I wonder if the Belgians beat themselves up over the Belgian Congo, the French over Algeria and Vietnam, the Japanese over China, the Italians for allowing Ceasar to conquer us? The only comparable crime to the holocaust I can think of in near history is maybe Rwanda. Its like some part of our population are in a race to show we are worse than anybody else, I see nothing to be ashamed of, Indians were quite prepared to sacrifice millions of their own citizens to gain power and did so, the Mau Mau?, try this "Mau Mau militants were guilty of numerous atrocities. The most notorious was their attack on the settlement of Lari, on the night of 25–26 March 1953, in which they herded Kikuyu men, women and children into huts and set fire to them, hacking down with pangas anyone who attempted escape, before throwing them back into the burning huts. The attack at Lari was so extreme that "African policemen who saw the bodies of the victims . . . were physically sick and said 'These people are animals. If I see one now I shall shoot with the greatest eagerness'"and it "even shocked many Mau Mau supporters, some of whom would subsequently try to excuse the attack as 'a mistake'"." If you read the whole thread you might find all of those have been mentioned - and that your accusation is wide of the mark. | |||
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" Another _iew point: By Alistair Boddy-Evans, About.com Guide The Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade began around the mid-fifteenth century when Portuguese interests in Africa moved away from the fabled deposits of gold to a much more readily available commodity -- slaves. By the seventeenth century the trade was in full swing, reaching a peak towards the end of the eighteenth century. It was a trade which was especially fruitful, since every stage of the journey could be profitable for merchants -- the infamous triangular trade. But you understand that the triangular trade wasn't reference to that trade benefiting Africans? - it was a triple exploitation/benefit to the British." did you miss the word Portuguese | |||
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" Another _iew point: By Alistair Boddy-Evans, About.com Guide The Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade began around the mid-fifteenth century when Portuguese interests in Africa moved away from the fabled deposits of gold to a much more readily available commodity -- slaves. By the seventeenth century the trade was in full swing, reaching a peak towards the end of the eighteenth century. It was a trade which was especially fruitful, since every stage of the journey could be profitable for merchants -- the infamous triangular trade. But you understand that the triangular trade wasn't reference to that trade benefiting Africans? - it was a triple exploitation/benefit to the British. did you miss the word Portuguese" I don't really understand your point? If you go back to the page you copied and pasted from Alik Shahadah and read the paragraph that follows, that makes a pretty good summary though. I've enjoyed the debate but arguing for arguments sake isn't so interesting. | |||
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"I was never arguing they were the same - the debate was in the context of much earlier discussions as to the bias of resources on aspects of history. The quote you have borrowed is a little like saying the holocaust is but a part of the overall evil acts that have taken part in Europe. Slavery was established long, long before the British visited Africa - but Britain - the most powerful empire in the world, exploited some of the weakest societies in the world to increase its own wealth. That one event sought to eliminate certain humans, and that another treated certain humans as less than human - seems a little tenuous. At their root they are based on prejudice, arrogance and the pursuit of power and material wealth. The other side is that in both Britain and Germany there were also people that sought to bring down those movements." the quote simply demonstrates the african nation was complicit in its abuse of people from their own country for profit since at least the times of the Egyptians and not in their annihilation/genocide. i suggest you google the person I quoted and his take on it. nobody has said the GB was any the less complicit in slavery and its profits.. but also remember we abolished it and every slave in the British empire was free by 1833 but still no excuses.. it seems you do not want to understand the differences between the African and Nazi holocaust. it took many nations to bring about the destruction of Hitler and if this had not succeeded the whole world would be a very different place populated by 6'4" blonde germanic, remember Mengele who in May 1943, entered Auschwitz as an educated, experienced, medical researcher. With funding for his experiments, he worked alongside some of the top medical researchers of the time. Anxious to make a name for himself, Mengele searched for the secrets of heredity. The Nazi ideal of the future would benefit from the help of genetics: if Aryan women could assuredly give birth to twins who were sure to be blond and blue eyed - then the future could be saved. Mengele, as he learned while working for Professor Otmar Freiherr von Vershuer, believed that twins held these secrets. Auschwitz seemed the best location for such research because of the large number of available twins to use as specimens. and despite what went on peoples are still displaced,ethnic cleansing is still happening as is the trafficking of people. | |||
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"The part I was referencing is this: 'The African Holocaust is the greatest continuing tragedy the world has ever seen. It was also the most impacting social event in the history of humanity. Not only in terms of scale but also in terms of legacy and horror. It is a Holocaust which is constantly denied, mitigated and trivialized. The African Holocaust is white-washed and Africans denied their human value and treated as a people only suitable for slavery.' Given our role and how significantly it impacts on our modern life it seems to me that both this event, and the events of the world wars are equally important in our historical education. The issue originally debated was as to whether one was of more importance than the other. For *our* history I don't think so. But it's a point maybe exhausted, and admittedly for no real value." never doubted the education value but they are as diverse as they are horrific. by the seconded world war slavery had been abolished for 100 years as far as GB was concerned,nobody could imagine that what the nazis did would or could happen and the fist camps were set up in 1933/34, as I said in an earlier post pretty much the time my grandfathers family got out of germany. | |||
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" Another _iew point: By Alistair Boddy-Evans, About.com Guide The Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade began around the mid-fifteenth century when Portuguese interests in Africa moved away from the fabled deposits of gold to a much more readily available commodity -- slaves. By the seventeenth century the trade was in full swing, reaching a peak towards the end of the eighteenth century. It was a trade which was especially fruitful, since every stage of the journey could be profitable for merchants -- the infamous triangular trade. But you understand that the triangular trade wasn't reference to that trade benefiting Africans? - it was a triple exploitation/benefit to the British. did you miss the word Portuguese I don't really understand your point? If you go back to the page you copied and pasted from Alik Shahadah and read the paragraph that follows, that makes a pretty good summary though. I've enjoyed the debate but arguing for arguments sake isn't so interesting." of course i read his whole comment and as you seem to want to blame GB for the slave trade it was only right to point out Africa own part it played in slavery and its part in supplying the slaves | |||
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"Auschwitz is quite simply like nowhere else on this earth, when we went it was snowing which only served to make the experience more harrowing and emotional. Personally I would like to see the UK government arrange for every schoolchild to visit it as part of the curriculum, forget all these fancy school trips to France and Skiing trips....just bus them to Auschwitz for a few days to see for themselves the dangers of bigotry and racism. agreed.. Bergen Belsen is equally a chilling, moving and frightening place to visit. I went there years ago and was the eeriest place I have every been to, took ages to shake the feeling off. not only all young people but also all politicians too.. there and the cemetries in Flanders.. " I also went to Belsen years ago a I was playing football near by and was told how chilling it was. There's nothing there now but a memorial tower where the incinerator was and lots of mounds of grassy earth. Then you read the plaques on the mounds and they all read 10 thousand buried here, 15 thousand buried here and so on. It's hard to imagine. Definitely one of my most humbling and moving experiences. X | |||
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" Another _iew point: By Alistair Boddy-Evans, About.com Guide The Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade began around the mid-fifteenth century when Portuguese interests in Africa moved away from the fabled deposits of gold to a much more readily available commodity -- slaves. By the seventeenth century the trade was in full swing, reaching a peak towards the end of the eighteenth century. It was a trade which was especially fruitful, since every stage of the journey could be profitable for merchants -- the infamous triangular trade. But you understand that the triangular trade wasn't reference to that trade benefiting Africans? - it was a triple exploitation/benefit to the British. did you miss the word Portuguese I don't really understand your point? If you go back to the page you copied and pasted from Alik Shahadah and read the paragraph that follows, that makes a pretty good summary though. I've enjoyed the debate but arguing for arguments sake isn't so interesting. of course i read his whole comment and as you seem to want to blame GB for the slave trade it was only right to point out Africa own part it played in slavery and its part in supplying the slaves" If you read a bit of Livingstone and Kirk you'll see slavery was an issue right the way through the 19th century. That is until we decided to carve up Africa and force people to work on the lands we claimed! The attitudes that led to both events is what is fundamental and while we can take the moral high ground for the one, for the other we were both villain and hero. That you think it's simply a case 'that I seem to want to blame GB for the slave trade' speaks volumes about the ignorance and regard for what actually happened. Understanding that will need more than snippets of Wikipedia - which is why (to take it back to the original debate) no one event can realistically be prioritised over another for its historical value. | |||
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" Personally I would like to see the UK government arrange for every schoolchild to visit it as part of the curriculum, forget all these fancy school trips to France and Skiing trips....just bus them to Auschwitz for a few days to see for themselves the dangers of bigotry and racism. " +1
I was never taught anything about any of this at school   We were only taught bits about the odd King and Queen.
I do hope it is taught nowadays in the hope it reminds people how lucky we actually are in this country. | |||
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"One day I will visit Auschwitz. The Holocaust should always be remembered. The evil that men do is quite astounding " I'm not an empathetic person by any means but that is one place I just don't want a memory of. I'll never go there. | |||
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" Personally I would like to see the UK government arrange for every schoolchild to visit it as part of the curriculum, forget all these fancy school trips to France and Skiing trips....just bus them to Auschwitz for a few days to see for themselves the dangers of bigotry and racism.
+1
I was never taught anything about any of this at school We were only taught bits about the odd King and Queen.
I do hope it is taught nowadays in the hope it reminds people how lucky we actually are in this country."They will be now - in the revised curriculum (and much of the other things discussed) | |||
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" Personally I would like to see the UK government arrange for every schoolchild to visit it as part of the curriculum, forget all these fancy school trips to France and Skiing trips....just bus them to Auschwitz for a few days to see for themselves the dangers of bigotry and racism.
+1
I was never taught anything about any of this at school We were only taught bits about the odd King and Queen.
I do hope it is taught nowadays in the hope it reminds people how lucky we actually are in this country.
They will be now - in the revised curriculum (and much of the other things discussed)"I wasn't taught any of this either - I had to find out for myself. | |||
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" Personally I would like to see the UK government arrange for every schoolchild to visit it as part of the curriculum, forget all these fancy school trips to France and Skiing trips....just bus them to Auschwitz for a few days to see for themselves the dangers of bigotry and racism.
+1
I was never taught anything about any of this at school We were only taught bits about the odd King and Queen.
I do hope it is taught nowadays in the hope it reminds people how lucky we actually are in this country.
They will be now - in the revised curriculum (and much of the other things discussed)
I wasn't taught any of this either - I had to find out for myself."Well I hate Gove - but there's good sense in making history a focus on British history.. Although that would cover most of the world! I did WW2 at school but that was because the teacher was interested in it. The African aspects I knew nothing of from school - that's all via work, but really fascinating. Livingstone's letters are available online - so are lots of Kirks - there's a good book about Kirk (think its called the last slave market) about the demise of the slave trade in Zanzibar. The slave market is still there and that too is a humbling place to visit. | |||
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" Personally I would like to see the UK government arrange for every schoolchild to visit it as part of the curriculum, forget all these fancy school trips to France and Skiing trips....just bus them to Auschwitz for a few days to see for themselves the dangers of bigotry and racism.
+1
I was never taught anything about any of this at school We were only taught bits about the odd King and Queen.
I do hope it is taught nowadays in the hope it reminds people how lucky we actually are in this country."+1 | |||
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" Another _iew point: By Alistair Boddy-Evans, About.com Guide The Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade began around the mid-fifteenth century when Portuguese interests in Africa moved away from the fabled deposits of gold to a much more readily available commodity -- slaves. By the seventeenth century the trade was in full swing, reaching a peak towards the end of the eighteenth century. It was a trade which was especially fruitful, since every stage of the journey could be profitable for merchants -- the infamous triangular trade. But you understand that the triangular trade wasn't reference to that trade benefiting Africans? - it was a triple exploitation/benefit to the British. did you miss the word Portuguese I don't really understand your point? If you go back to the page you copied and pasted from Alik Shahadah and read the paragraph that follows, that makes a pretty good summary though. I've enjoyed the debate but arguing for arguments sake isn't so interesting. of course i read his whole comment and as you seem to want to blame GB for the slave trade it was only right to point out Africa own part it played in slavery and its part in supplying the slaves If you read a bit of Livingstone and Kirk you'll see slavery was an issue right the way through the 19th century. That is until we decided to carve up Africa and force people to work on the lands we claimed! The attitudes that led to both events is what is fundamental and while we can take the moral high ground for the one, for the other we were both villain and hero. That you think it's simply a case 'that I seem to want to blame GB for the slave trade' speaks volumes about the ignorance and regard for what actually happened. Understanding that will need more than snippets of Wikipedia - which is why (to take it back to the original debate) no one event can realistically be prioritised over another for its historical value. " Really, no one event, let me see how about the atom bomb, pretty significant one event! Thought out history there have always been single events which change and take precedence. Good job the dinosaurs became extinct. Any single action can change the course of history and once again the holocaust was not about slavery it is a completely different event caused for totally different reasons which you continue to fail to acknowledge. As I have said slavery is an abhorrent practise one which aims to make profit out of the in humane treatment of others. You need to read what the nazi doctors were doing and then tell me where this happened in slavery.. Simon Wisenthal centre: Ariebert Heim and have a read at what he is responsible for... This isn't a case of one upmanship as the events are different. | |||
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"I'd have to say it is as it's very hard to follow what your actual arguments are, other than argument for arguments sake. The more you've gone on the more obvious the gaps. If you'd like the final word - take it. What you have done very well is illustrated both the need for a thorough education in our countries history, and the challenges of providing it in a copy and paste culture. Actually that's been quite useful, so thanks "no argument here as I said previously nothing to argue over as both events are worlds apart. Britain paid a massive part in slavery as did other European and non European countries. Africa sold its own people's to the slave traders as well as taking slaves for them selves. Slavery has been documented back to 1740 BC, slavery is primarily about cheap/free labour and profit as you find with trafficking: Slavery has existed in various forms throughout most of recorded history, and Africa has not been an exception. From ancient Egypt to the European invasions to even as late as the 20th century, Africa has had a particularly long and harrowing history of slavery. Although the transatlantic slave trade is prominent in the history books, slavery existed and sometimes flourished in Africa long before. In fact, slavery was practiced all over Africa: in many areas there were large-scale slave societies, while in others there were slave-owning societies In ancient Egypt and Nubia slavery existed but it was not a dominant fixture. Slavery in Egypt took many forms; from household and pastoral (for farming), to military. Household slaves would often be integrated to varying degrees with the families of their owners, so that boys would be raised to the status of adopted sons and women as concubines or wives who gave birth to heirs. Egyptian slaves were also known to have been executed to accompany their deceased owners into the afterlife. There was later an increase in slavery with the enslavement of the Hebrews in pharaoh Egypt. Nazi was about extinction and its that simple and different. | |||
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It's good practice to credit your sources when ripping them off.
http://library.thinkquest.org/C002739/AfricaSite/lmslaveryintro.htm
I enjoy a good debate - but throwing random parts of the web of which you don't understand the context is not debate. Otherwise it's been an interesting way to pass the day | |||
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"But nothing to do with the original debate
It's good practice to credit your sources when ripping them off.
http://library.thinkquest.org/C002739/AfricaSite/lmslaveryintro.htm
I enjoy a good debate - but throwing random parts of the web of which you don't understand the context is not debate. Otherwise it's been an interesting way to pass the day"Oops I missed out the ref, good job I'm not being marked. And if you wish to believe these are similar events you belittle both and the millions who perished under nazi rule and all the others that have faced acts of genocide; Ref: http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-11108059 27 August 2010 Last updated at 12:36 Share this pageEmailPrint 139 ShareFacebookTwitter Analysis: Defining genocide At what point does a mass killing or forced movement become genocide? Continue reading the main story Related Stories Congo killings 'may be genocide' Bosnian Serb cleared of genocide Genocide added to Bashir warrant Genocide is understood by most to be the gravest crime against humanity it is possible to commit. It is the mass extermination of a whole group of people, an attempt to destroy an entire group and wipe them out of existence. But at the heart of this simple idea is a complicated tangle of legal definitions. This has led to conflicting _iews on when a mass killing, or forced movement, of people can be called genocide. There are people who say that there was only one genocide during the last century. Others say there were at least three, possibly more. What is genocide and when can that term be applied? UN definition The term was coined in 1943 by the Jewish-Polish lawyer Raphael Lemkin who combined the Greek word "genos" (race or tribe) with the Latin word "cide" (to kill). After witnessing the horrors of the Holocaust - in which every member of his family except his brother and himself was killed - Dr Lemkin campaigned to have genocide recognised as a crime under international law. His efforts gave way to the adoption of the UN Convention on Genocide in December 1948, which came into effect in January 1951. Article Two of the convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such": Tutsis in Rwanda were singled out, sometimes by the ethnicity on their ID cards Killing members of the group Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group The convention also imposes a general duty on states that are signatories to "prevent and to punish" genocide. Since its adoption, the UN treaty has come under fire from different sides, mostly by people frustrated with the difficulty of applying it to different cases. 'Too narrow' They argue that the definition is too narrow. Others say the term is devalued by misuse. Some analysts contend that the definition is so narrow that none of the mass killings perpetrated since the treaty's adoption would fall under it. Continue reading the main story “ Start Quote Genocide is... both the gravest and greatest of the crimes against humanity” Alain Destexhe Former head of MSF The objections most frequently raised against the treaty include: The convention excludes targeted political and social groups The definition is limited to direct acts against people, and excludes acts against the environment which sustains them or their cultural distinctiveness Proving intention beyond reasonable doubt is extremely difficult UN member states are hesitant to single out other members or intervene, as was the case in Rwanda There is no body of international law to clarify the parameters of the convention (though this is changing as UN war crimes tribunals issue indictments) The difficulty of defining or measuring "in part", and establishing how many deaths equal genocide But in spite of these criticisms, there are many who say genocide is recognisable. In his book Rwanda and Genocide in the 20th Century, former secretary-general of Medecins Sans Frontieres, Alain Destexhe, says: "Genocide is distinguishable from all other crimes by the motivation behind it. "Genocide is a crime on a different scale to all other crimes against humanity and implies an intention to completely exterminate the chosen group. "Genocide is therefore both the gravest and greatest of the crimes against humanity." Loss of meaning Mr Destexhe believes the word genocide has fallen victim to "a sort of verbal inflation, in much the same way as happened with the word fascist". Mr Ignatieff says the Atlantic slave trade was not genocide and that the word is losing its meaning Because of that, he says, the term has progressively lost its initial meaning and is becoming "dangerously commonplace". Michael Ignatieff, director of the Carr Centre for Human Rights Policy at Harvard University, agrees. "Those who should use the word genocide never let it slip their mouths. Those who unfortunately do use it, banalise it into a validation of every kind of victimhood," he said in a lecture about Raphael Lemkin. "Slavery, for example, is called genocide when - whatever it was, and it was an infamy - it was a system to exploit, rather than to exterminate the living." In 2004 in the Democratic Republic of Congo, a renegade commander captured the town of Bukavu and said he did it to prevent a genocide of Congolese Tutsis - the Banyamulenge. It later transpired that fewer than 100 people had died. The differences over how genocide should be defined have also led to disagreements on how many genocides actually occurred during the 20th Century. History of genocide Some say there was only one genocide in the last century - the Holocaust. More than 7,000 Muslim men were killed at Srebrenica in 1995 However, others say there have been at least three genocides under the 1948 UN convention: The mass killing of Armenians by Ottoman Turks between 1915-1920 - an accusation that the Turks deny The Holocaust, during which more than six million Jews were killed Rwanda, where an estimated 800,000 Tutsis and moderate Hutus died in the 1994 genocide In Bosnia, the 1995 massacre at Srebrenica has been ruled to be genocide by the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY). And others give a long list of what they consider cases of genocide, including the Soviet man-made famine of Ukraine (1932-33), the Indonesian invasion of East Timor (1975), and the Khmer Rouge killings in Cambodia in the 1970s. The International Criminal Court in 2010 issued an arrest warrant for the President of Sudan, Omar al-Bashir, on genocide charges. He is accused of waging a campaign against the citizens of the Sudanese region of Darfur. Some 300,000 people are said to have died and millions have been displaced in seven years of fighting there. Legal precedent? The first case to put into practice the convention on genocide was that of Jean Paul Akayesu, the Hutu mayor of the Rwandan town of Taba at the time of the killings. Mr Karadzic denies charges of war crimes and genocide In a landmark ruling, a special international tribunal convicted him of genocide and crimes against humanity on 2 September 1998. More than 30 ringleaders of the Rwandan genocide have now been convicted by the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda. In August 2010 a leaked UN report reportedly alleges that Rwandan Hutus, perpetrators of the 1994 genocide, may themselves have been victims of the same crime. In 2004, the ICTY widened the definition of what constitutes genocide. General Radislav Krstic, the first man convicted by the ICTY of genocide in Bosnia, had appealed against his conviction for his role in the killing of more than 7,000 Muslim men and boys in Srebrenica. But the court rejected his argument that the numbers were "too insignificant" to be genocide - a decision likely to set an international legal precedent. Since then a Bosnian Serb military commander has been cleared of being involved in Srebrenica. It remains to be seen whether cases still pending will aid clarity on what is and what is not genocide. The Bosnian Serb leader Radovan Karadzic is currently on trial at The Hague accused of war crimes and genocide. He denies the charges. President Bashir continues to travel outside Sudan, to countries who are signatories to the International Criminal Court, without being detained as ordered by the arrest warrant. If his case is ever brought to trial it will be the first time that genocide charges are brought against a serving head of state. | |||
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"Auschwitz is quite simply like nowhere else on this earth, when we went it was snowing which only served to make the experience more harrowing and emotional. Personally I would like to see the UK government arrange for every schoolchild to visit it as part of the curriculum, forget all these fancy school trips to France and Skiing trips....just bus them to Auschwitz for a few days to see for themselves the dangers of bigotry and racism. " We have visited also and completely agree with this. | |||
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"Rather than copying and pasting why not read some of the stuff you're throwing onto here and try and understand it? The original discussion was that some considered a visit to holocaust sites as compulsory for children. Others disputed this and raised the question as to why other historical events would not be considered of the same importance. The question was never whether the events were the same - although arguably both have very similar causes in relation to the prejudices that allowed them to happen. The problem is that you've been trying to make an argument against an event you clearly haven't an understanding of, and in seeking to cover that by copying sources, you've used arguments for very different aspects out of context - which sadly has resulted in a large amount of verbal diarrhoea - albeit largely regurgitated. " Once again your arrogance over your argument is demonstrated perfectly by your high hacking with your first post: "Both world wars obviously have to be a part of children's education - however I think they need to be balanced with a broader history of Britain overseas to understand we weren't always the 'goodies' and to properly understand why we are what we are - our role in the slave trade for example." Not one of the 40 posts before yours relates to slavery, one mentions Cambodia. You alone wanted to include slavery. I understand only to well the Holocaust having relatives that escaped the nazis and some that didn't, at least my grandfathers family didn't here from their relatives again, I don't have any experience of slavery. I suggest you have no experience of either. Any experience we have can only be gained from a historical _iew point and from those who experienced first hand. You'll probably not find anyone who has experienced slavery. You'll find people who are descended from slaves such as Ainsley Harriott or as I offered the late Jesse Owens the son of a slave and we all know how Jesse Owens went on to embarrass A Hitler at the Olympics. No one denies slavery is/was a most despicable money making machine, but that is what it is was/is. It's not the genocide/total destruction/ annihilation. A movie for you with transcript. The peoples [of the earth] will soon realize that Germany under National Socialism does not desire the enmity of other peoples. I want once again to be a prophet. If the international Finance-Jewry inside and outside of Europe should succeed in plunging the peoples of the earth once again into a world war, the result will be not the Bolshevization of earth, and thus a Jewish victory, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe. Hitler to German parliament jan 20 1939 ushmm.org/wlc/en/media_fi.php?Moduleld=10007271&Mediald=5700: | |||
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"To me, the saddest thing about the whole Auschwitz experience is that it is now so often just an add on to a piss up stag weekend in Krakow. I can see what good it may do for those who may not normally seek such experiences to visit the site and share that with their family and peers, but it just sits uneasily with me that a place of that much importance and gravity is _iewed as a morbid curiosity and a diversion from cheap Polish beer. It is entirely that that has kept me from visiting to date. " I have to disagree with you slightly, though I take the point. I visited Auschwitz in 2008 under just such circumstances. Being a history graduate, I was bound to want to go but other members of my party (a very typical English stag tour) were not so keen. However we persuaded them, and in a hungover state we went by coach on the Sunday - it was a sobering and extraordinary experience and every member of that party has stated how much it affected them and how glad they were to see it. | |||
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"To me, the saddest thing about the whole Auschwitz experience is that it is now so often just an add on to a piss up stag weekend in Krakow. I can see what good it may do for those who may not normally seek such experiences to visit the site and share that with their family and peers, but it just sits uneasily with me that a place of that much importance and gravity is _iewed as a morbid curiosity and a diversion from cheap Polish beer. It is entirely that that has kept me from visiting to date. I have to disagree with you slightly, though I take the point. I visited Auschwitz in 2008 under just such circumstances. Being a history graduate, I was bound to want to go but other members of my party (a very typical English stag tour) were not so keen. However we persuaded them, and in a hungover state we went by coach on the Sunday - it was a sobering and extraordinary experience and every member of that party has stated how much it affected them and how glad they were to see it." I chose to drive to Krakow a couple of summers ago. I chose to do it alone (for reasons of my own) with the express purpose of visiting Auschwitz - I had met a survivor many years previously and this is what motivated me. I did not do the coach tour thing but went with my own car. It was a beautiful summer day - hot and bright. The birds were singing - contrary to popular myth - and the entrance - apart from the gates and fences - actually looked quite lovely. All the more horrific then to go around the barracks and see the exhibits. The only thing which I really found distasteful were, unbelievably, the SOUVENIR shops! No - I am not joking! I walked past them all to get to and from my car in the car park. Other than that - an experience well worth the drive through Germany (ironically). | |||
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"Once again your arrogance over your argument is demonstrated perfectly by your high hacking with your first post: "Both world wars obviously have to be a part of children's education - however I think they need to be balanced with a broader history of Britain overseas to understand we weren't always the 'goodies' and to properly understand why we are what we are - our role in the slave trade for example." Not one of the 40 posts before yours relates to slavery, one mentions Cambodia. " I'd accuse you of reading but failing to comprehend - except that I'm not sure you've even been reading - just blindly copying, oblivious to the actual discussion. The argument was not the holocaust vs slavery - READ the early posts and you will see several commenting that that one event cannot be considered more critical than another in relation to educational resources. I gave several examples of which slavery was one, others gave their own examples. The very post you quoted says FOR EXAMPLE! YOU commented on another posters comment that in your opinion the holocaust was at the top of your personal league table: "none of the other bad points in history are forgotten but you have to take the holocaust to the others." It was YOU that made the argument that slavery was somehow not so bad.. "Slavery cannot really be considered in the same way as disgusting as it is as its purpose was not to eliminate a whole culture of the face of the planet and if Hitler had won that would have occurred. slavery has at some point in time probably been a way of life for every so called advanced peoples in there defeat of there enemies.." That was, and remains a very limited perspective of the slave trade, and as I pointed out in later comments - one of the people you quoted gives a more thorough analysis, despite that you had selectively quoted only the parts you thought backed up your argument. My argument was that the holocaust as a historical event would not warrant the resources required for all school children to visit sites overseas - and that there is a debate as to many other historical events that could be equally a priority. This is a _iew shared by many, including those that have drawn up the school curriculum. Your argument appears to have been based on an initial comment you made, and that you weren't able to effectively back up, but you've since lost track of because of a desperation to feel you have 'won' the argument. If you want to do a 'Top Trumps' of evil historical events I doubt you'll find an overall winner. Slavery affected more people, arguably has more relevance to British culture and contributed to our geography, architecture, industry, culture.. But you can throw in a 'despicability' category, along with 'malicious intent', 'speed' and so on and try to score your points where you can - but all of which misses the point. It's the very fact that this discussion can be had that makes my original point. You had already made that point for me earlier, when you criticised me for saying 'no one event could be prioritised' and yet you then listed several events, oblivious to your own contradiction! So rather than arguing points you don't understand, why not put across an argument based on those things that you say you do? Why would you consider the holocaust to be the most critical aspect of children's historical education? One final point on slavery is that you're quite wrong to say "You'll probably not find anyone who has experienced slavery" Look up Mende Nazer - a slave who wrote a book on her slavery... in London! | |||
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"Interestingly the Holocaust has been taught on the History curriculum for a number of years. However, if we go with Gove that is unlikely to continue. Much better to learn about random dead kings from centuries ago rather than more recent history which helped shape our modern world more recently." It's still in there - the issue though will be the sheer volume of 'facts' that are supposed to be covered in a very short space of time. There won't be any scope for developing genuine interests. | |||
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"To me, the saddest thing about the whole Auschwitz experience is that it is now so often just an add on to a piss up stag weekend in Krakow. I can see what good it may do for those who may not normally seek such experiences to visit the site and share that with their family and peers, but it just sits uneasily with me that a place of that much importance and gravity is _iewed as a morbid curiosity and a diversion from cheap Polish beer. It is entirely that that has kept me from visiting to date. I have to disagree with you slightly, though I take the point. I visited Auschwitz in 2008 under just such circumstances. Being a history graduate, I was bound to want to go but other members of my party (a very typical English stag tour) were not so keen. However we persuaded them, and in a hungover state we went by coach on the Sunday - it was a sobering and extraordinary experience and every member of that party has stated how much it affected them and how glad they were to see it." Hence this statement in my post : 'I can see what good it may do for those who may not normally seek such experiences to visit the site and share that with their family and peers ...' But the fact remains that whilst they were moved, the majority of your party did visit as a diversion from a piss up and not as a deliberate visit to a location that I would argue is a site of social and historic importance to all of us and should be visited under its own merit, so that we all have a personal experience of the evils of mankind. I shall offer a small piece of 'A Brave and Startling Truth' by Maya Angelou to sum up why I feel this way, that we all must understand just how evil man can be towards fellow man and just how delicate a balance it is : 'We, this people, on this small and drifting planet Whose hands can strike with such abandon That in a twinkling, life is sapped from the living Yet those same hands can touch with such healing, irresistible tenderness That the haughty neck is happy to bow And the proud back is glad to bend Out of such chaos, of such contradiction We learn that we are neither devils nor divines' To me, not enough people recognise this and would sooner remain ignorant of its value and importance. That in itself is truly dangerous. So yes, I do see a place for tours and I do agree with those that say schools should plan trips there. It just sits uncomfortably that most peoples experience of it is by chance. | |||
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"Interestingly the Holocaust has been taught on the History curriculum for a number of years. However, if we go with Gove that is unlikely to continue. Much better to learn about random dead kings from centuries ago rather than more recent history which helped shape our modern world more recently. It's still in there - the issue though will be the sheer volume of 'facts' that are supposed to be covered in a very short space of time. There won't be any scope for developing genuine interests." At the moment it is still there. If Gove has his way it won't be. | |||
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" I chose to drive to Krakow a couple of summers ago. I chose to do it alone (for reasons of my own) with the express purpose of visiting Auschwitz - I had met a survivor many years previously and this is what motivated me. I did not do the coach tour thing but went with my own car. It was a beautiful summer day - hot and bright. The birds were singing - contrary to popular myth - and the entrance - apart from the gates and fences - actually looked quite lovely. All the more horrific then to go around the barracks and see the exhibits. The only thing which I really found distasteful were, unbelievably, the SOUVENIR shops! No - I am not joking! I walked past them all to get to and from my car in the car park. Other than that - an experience well worth the drive through Germany (ironically)." DB9 - I must say as a fellow forumite you do both intrigue and interest me ! I appreciate your depth of knowledge on this and a couple of other subjects that have been discussed of late and you do make for interesting reading | |||
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"Interestingly the Holocaust has been taught on the History curriculum for a number of years. However, if we go with Gove that is unlikely to continue. Much better to learn about random dead kings from centuries ago rather than more recent history which helped shape our modern world more recently. It's still in there - the issue though will be the sheer volume of 'facts' that are supposed to be covered in a very short space of time. There won't be any scope for developing genuine interests. At the moment it is still there. If Gove has his way it won't be." Not this part? the Second World War, including: - causes such as appeasement, the failure of the League of Nations and the rise of the Dictators - the global reach of the war – from Arctic Convoys to the Pacific Campaign - the roles of Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin - Nazi atrocities in occupied Europe and the unique evil of the Holocaust | |||
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" It just sits uncomfortably that most peoples experience of it is by chance." Yes, I understand where you are coming from and agree to an extent - but I suppose most people won't have any experience of it, so by chance is better than nothing. I know it affected even the more knuckle-headed of the fellow stags to the point that it made them re-evaluate some opinions - and that can only be a good thing. I'm not sure I'd take my kids there - but I have taken them to the Holocaust exhibition at the Imperial War Museum which is excellent. | |||
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" Once again your arrogance over your argument is demonstrated perfectly by your high hacking with your first post: "Both world wars obviously have to be a part of children's education - however I think they need to be balanced with a broader history of Britain overseas to understand we weren't always the 'goodies' and to properly understand why we are what we are - our role in the slave trade for example." Not one of the 40 posts before yours relates to slavery, one mentions Cambodia. I'd accuse you of reading but failing to comprehend - except that I'm not sure you've even been reading - just blindly copying, oblivious to the actual discussion. The argument was not the holocaust vs slavery - READ the early posts and you will see several commenting that that one event cannot be considered more critical than another in relation to educational resources. I gave several examples of which slavery was one, others gave their own examples. The very post you quoted says FOR EXAMPLE! YOU commented on another posters comment that in your opinion the holocaust was at the top of your personal league table: none of the other bad points in history are forgotten but you have to take the holocaust to the others. It was YOU that made the argument that slavery was somehow not so bad.. Slavery cannot really be considered in the same way as disgusting as it is as its purpose was not to eliminate a whole culture of the face of the planet and if Hitler had won that would have occurred. slavery has at some point in time probably been a way of life for every so called advanced peoples in there defeat of there enemies.. That was, and remains a very limited perspective of the slave trade, and as I pointed out in later comments - one of the people you quoted gives a more thorough analysis, despite that you had selectively quoted only the parts you thought backed up your argument. My argument was that the holocaust as a historical event would not warrant the resources required for all school children to visit sites overseas - and that there is a debate as to many other historical events that could be equally a priority. This is a _iew shared by many, including those that have drawn up the school curriculum. Your argument appears to have been based on an initial comment you made, and that you weren't able to effectively back up, but you've since lost track of because of a desperation to feel you have 'won' the argument. If you want to do a 'Top Trumps' of evil historical events I doubt you'll find an overall winner. Slavery affected more people, arguably has more relevance to British culture and contributed to our geography, architecture, industry, culture.. But you can throw in a 'despicability' category, along with 'malicious intent', 'speed' and so on and try to score your points where you can - but all of which misses the point. It's the very fact that this discussion can be had that makes my original point. You had already made that point for me earlier, when you criticised me for saying 'no one event could be prioritised' and yet you then listed several events, oblivious to your own contradiction! So rather than arguing points you don't understand, why not put across an argument based on those things that you say you do? Why would you consider the holocaust to be the most critical aspect of children's historical education? One final point on slavery is that you're quite wrong to say "You'll probably not find anyone who has experienced slavery" Look up Mende Nazer - a slave who wrote a book on her slavery... in London!" as I said you introduced the slavery angle, why you felt it was necessary to do so is for your mind to come to terms with and at no point have a degraded the atrocity that slavery is/was. I have pointed out multiple times that the 2 are not the same and that is the point. SLAVERY IS FOR PROFIT BASED ON PEOPLE BEING GOODS. NAZIS EQUALS ANNIHILATION. you seem to want to deny everything that I have posted which has also included how slavery isn't just about the Europeans or Great Britains involvement and that the admission by African scholars that they played a massive part themselves. Your research if you had bothered to do so would show this. where do opinions/_iews come from, it can only be gained buy reading literature, by listening to personal experience or experiencing it yourself, its that simple. Again the previous 40 posts to yours were exclusively referring to WW2 holocaust and not slavery. yes some posted about education and to or not to take kids to the camps 1833 is when all british slaves were finally given freedom and declared so. 1933 the first camps were being used, some a few people who were in those camps are still with us because the final solution could not be fulfilled before the total surrender. and that is why it has such a relevance to current history. shame we don't have a Spartacus day. after all the romans fed slaves/people to lions and other such atrocites with slaves..but we seem to remember Rome for other things...roads, pluming, literature, architecture, taxes oh and nailing Christ to a cross.. if you want to have a debate on slavery lets do so and I think you'll find our _iews are very similar....don't forget the jews also played a small part in the north atlantic slave trade.. on second thoughts I don't believe you'd listen to others _iews even if they are identical to yours.. | |||
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