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"What a world we live in Been on Facebook and people are mad about this woman My opinion is...got nothing to do with me,my life stays the same so sorry I dont care" If you are saying it has nothing to do with you and you don’t care why make the post. This is one of the problems with any form of social media it can cause things to be stirred up | |||
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"What a world we live in Been on Facebook and people are mad about this woman My opinion is...got nothing to do with me,my life stays the same so sorry I dont care If you are saying it has nothing to do with you and you don’t care why make the post. This is one of the problems with any form of social media it can cause things to be stirred up " It’s a guaranteed 175. That’s the only reason I can see to make this post considering it’s been talked about at length already on here  | |||
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"What a world we live in Been on Facebook and people are mad about this woman My opinion is...got nothing to do with me,my life stays the same so sorry I dont care If you are saying it has nothing to do with you and you don’t care why make the post. This is one of the problems with any form of social media it can cause things to be stirred up " Because im giving my opinion on others opinions and not the person | |||
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"What a world we live in Been on Facebook and people are mad about this woman My opinion is...got nothing to do with me,my life stays the same so sorry I dont care If you are saying it has nothing to do with you and you don’t care why make the post. This is one of the problems with any form of social media it can cause things to be stirred up Because im giving my opinion on others opinions and not the person" Opinions are like arseholes, most people have one Doesn’t mean that their opinion is right or wrong but can be hugely divisive and stir up a lot of feelings and anger in some cases | |||
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"She has XY chromosomes, most likely born intersex so she’s not trans. In reality she’s more like a woman who’s taken lots of steroids now at this point but it’s natural from her birth so she’s got an advantage but not cheating in terms of the rules of the game if she can pass the gender tests." I don't think anyone suggested she was cheating, my feeling is she has an unfair advantage a bit like a professional footballer against a novice goalkeeper it's not a competition, so winning with such an advantage is unfair ,the fact that shes lost in other fights is however a little odd . | |||
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"I put quotation marks on the word trans just for post headline " But they are not trans So why do it other than to rile it up Have a great Saturday As I say I am out. | |||
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"I put quotation marks on the word trans just for post headline " And then sit on the fence with no opinion & no interest in the subject. How odd…. | |||
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"Unfortunate, I remember how certain guys began to excel in sport around age 15, it was clear they had huge genetic / physical advantages over other boys. We think nothing of this, it’s normal & in sports like boxing, rugby , sprinting I’d imagine genetics play a much bigger role than hard work. Ate any of these tested for unfair advantage? " This is my bug bear. Women get tested to prove that they're sufficiently "female" but the genetic advantages that men have simply means they win everything, which nobody questions. For example I believe Michael Plelps naturally produces very low levels of lactic acid. This is a huge advantage to any athlete. Nita | |||
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"I can't help but think that if she'd been white, blonde, Christian and from Kent or Iowa, then this would have played out very differently. " Sadly, you're probably right 
Nita | |||
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"….. My opinion is...got nothing to do with me,my life stays the same so sorry I dont care" Then why post a thread about it ?😏 I actually stand like you - it’s not my monkey not my circus. But, a guy or a guy who used to be a guy who now identifies as a woman should have no place competing against a woman who has always biologically been a woman. In my opinion. They’ve got massive advantages (generally) and it’s an unfair fight/race etc from the start. | |||
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"….. My opinion is...got nothing to do with me,my life stays the same so sorry I dont care Then why post a thread about it ?😏 I actually stand like you - it’s not my monkey not my circus. But, a guy or a guy who used to be a guy who now identifies as a woman should have no place competing against a woman who has always biologically been a woman. In my opinion. They’ve got massive advantages (generally) and it’s an unfair fight/race etc from the start. " But that isn't the case here. The woman in question is just that and was born female, so the title of the thread is clearly inflammatory despite using ". Some women have higher levels of testosterone and suffer the effects.. Picos https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/polycystic-ovary-syndrome-pcos/symptoms/ Nita | |||
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"….. My opinion is...got nothing to do with me,my life stays the same so sorry I dont care Then why post a thread about it ?😏 I actually stand like you - it’s not my monkey not my circus. But, a guy or a guy who used to be a guy who now identifies as a woman should have no place competing against a woman who has always biologically been a woman. In my opinion. They’ve got massive advantages (generally) and it’s an unfair fight/race etc from the start. " My post was about people getting nasty with opinions and not about the actual woman and thanks for the private messages | |||
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"Although she’s not a trans, she just has high testosterone levels, brilliant career to be in if you’re built like an outhouse!" I don’t get the argument at all. Isn’t this what the olympics are all about? Some people have more hormones than others and usually that makes them successful. If it’s all natural I don’t really care | |||
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"She has XY chromosomes, most likely born intersex so she’s not trans. In reality she’s more like a woman who’s taken lots of steroids now at this point but it’s natural from her birth so she’s got an advantage but not cheating in terms of the rules of the game if she can pass the gender tests.I don't think anyone suggested she was cheating, my feeling is she has an unfair advantage a bit like a professional footballer against a novice goalkeeper it's not a competition, so winning with such an advantage is unfair ,the fact that shes lost in other fights is however a little odd ." Michael Phelps had an unfair advantage as his body does not produce as much lactic acid as other people which led to him dominating the swimming world. There are basket ball players that have genetic conditions make them extremely tall....like 7ft tall. People use genetics all the time to excel in different fields. The main difference is they are not contact sports so there is an area here that needs to be looked at in more detail by people much more intelligent than I. I do think the different governing bodies need to work together for a unified approach to testing and accepted testosterone levels....which can fluctuate massively in females. It is interesting that all of a sudden the 'your gender is based on what's between your legs' arguement has been chucked out of the window by some anti trans people! Suddenly it is what is on the inside that counts. Evie | |||
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"I can't help but think that if she'd been white, blonde, Christian and from Kent or Iowa, then this would have played out very differently. " JK Rowling is one tweet away from making a comment about only the above being real women. | |||
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"I can't help but think that if she'd been white, blonde, Christian and from Kent or Iowa, then this would have played out very differently. " There’s so many prejudices in your post it sounds quite Kentish lol | |||
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"….. My opinion is...got nothing to do with me,my life stays the same so sorry I dont care Then why post a thread about it ?😏 I actually stand like you - it’s not my monkey not my circus. But, a guy or a guy who used to be a guy who now identifies as a woman should have no place competing against a woman who has always biologically been a woman. In my opinion. They’ve got massive advantages (generally) and it’s an unfair fight/race etc from the start. My post was about people getting nasty with opinions and not about the actual woman and thanks for the private messages " Absolute bollocks. You titled this thread in a way that stirs things up to get nasty comments. So you’re a hypocrite | |||
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"Again my post is about people getting angry about her when what she does makes no difference to my life,but this post proves people get angry about nothing that really matters " You knew what you were doing. It's not your first rodeo. Evie | |||
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"….. My opinion is...got nothing to do with me,my life stays the same so sorry I dont care Then why post a thread about it ?😏 I actually stand like you - it’s not my monkey not my circus. But, a guy or a guy who used to be a guy who now identifies as a woman should have no place competing against a woman who has always biologically been a woman. In my opinion. They’ve got massive advantages (generally) and it’s an unfair fight/race etc from the start. My post was about people getting nasty with opinions and not about the actual woman and thanks for the private messages Absolute bollocks. You titled this thread in a way that stirs things up to get nasty comments. So you’re a hypocrite " I used the word trans because that is what she is being called | |||
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"….. My opinion is...got nothing to do with me,my life stays the same so sorry I dont care Then why post a thread about it ?😏 I actually stand like you - it’s not my monkey not my circus. But, a guy or a guy who used to be a guy who now identifies as a woman should have no place competing against a woman who has always biologically been a woman. In my opinion. They’ve got massive advantages (generally) and it’s an unfair fight/race etc from the start. My post was about people getting nasty with opinions and not about the actual woman and thanks for the private messages Absolute bollocks. You titled this thread in a way that stirs things up to get nasty comments. So you’re a hypocrite " Aka twat 🤷🏽♂️ | |||
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"What was the purpose of this thread " To talk about people commenting about something that doesn't matter..its a boxing match between 2 women but the world has gone mad when it doesn't really matter | |||
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"What was the purpose of this thread To talk about people commenting about something that doesn't matter..its a boxing match between 2 women but the world has gone mad when it doesn't really matter " Why doesn't it matter? It matters to her. It matters to other boxers. It matters to other intersex people. It actually matters to any woman who doesn't fit the narrow minded view of what a woman should look like. Just because your cushy life is not impacted does not mean it doesn't matter. That is simply called privilege. Evie | |||
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"Again my post is about people getting angry about her when what she does makes no difference to my life,but this post proves people get angry about nothing that really matters " So why did you make the post if you're not interested in the subject? | |||
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"What was the purpose of this thread To talk about people commenting about something that doesn't matter..its a boxing match between 2 women but the world has gone mad when it doesn't really matter Why doesn't it matter? It matters to her. It matters to other boxers. It matters to other intersex people. It actually matters to any woman who doesn't fit the narrow minded view of what a woman should look like. Just because your cushy life is not impacted does not mean it doesn't matter. That is simply called privilege. Evie" Didn't they do the same to Caster Semeya (can't remember how to spell her name) she ended up quitting sports because she couldn't handle the grief she was getting (She was also intersex with XXY chromosomes and produced a high level of testosterone) | |||
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"What was the purpose of this thread To talk about people commenting about something that doesn't matter..its a boxing match between 2 women but the world has gone mad when it doesn't really matter Why doesn't it matter? It matters to her. It matters to other boxers. It matters to other intersex people. It actually matters to any woman who doesn't fit the narrow minded view of what a woman should look like. Just because your cushy life is not impacted does not mean it doesn't matter. That is simply called privilege. Evie Didn't they do the same to Caster Semeya (can't remember how to spell her name) she ended up quitting sports because she couldn't handle the grief she was getting (She was also intersex with XXY chromosomes and produced a high level of testosterone)" Yep. She was made to do countless tests again and again to prove her sex and to also take drugs to lower her testosterone levels I believe. Katie ledecky is currently smashing the swim world. She holds the top 20 fastest times for the distance she competes in (I think that was the graphic I saw on the BBC. I was crocheting at the time. ). There was clear water between here and the rest of the field in Paris, yet no one is questioning what her unique advantage is? Is it because she is a white American athlete perhaps? Who knows.
Evie
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"What was the purpose of this thread To talk about people commenting about something that doesn't matter..its a boxing match between 2 women but the world has gone mad when it doesn't really matter Why doesn't it matter? It matters to her. It matters to other boxers. It matters to other intersex people. It actually matters to any woman who doesn't fit the narrow minded view of what a woman should look like. Just because your cushy life is not impacted does not mean it doesn't matter. That is simply called privilege. Evie Didn't they do the same to Caster Semeya (can't remember how to spell her name) she ended up quitting sports because she couldn't handle the grief she was getting (She was also intersex with XXY chromosomes and produced a high level of testosterone)" Is it a male or female I’m confused | |||
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"What was the purpose of this thread To talk about people commenting about something that doesn't matter..its a boxing match between 2 women but the world has gone mad when it doesn't really matter Why doesn't it matter? It matters to her. It matters to other boxers. It matters to other intersex people. It actually matters to any woman who doesn't fit the narrow minded view of what a woman should look like. Just because your cushy life is not impacted does not mean it doesn't matter. That is simply called privilege. Evie Didn't they do the same to Caster Semeya (can't remember how to spell her name) she ended up quitting sports because she couldn't handle the grief she was getting (She was also intersex with XXY chromosomes and produced a high level of testosterone) Is it a male or female I’m confused " So are we by your comment. Evie | |||
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" Is it a male or female I’m confused " female born | |||
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"What was the purpose of this thread To talk about people commenting about something that doesn't matter..its a boxing match between 2 women but the world has gone mad when it doesn't really matter Why doesn't it matter? It matters to her. It matters to other boxers. It matters to other intersex people. It actually matters to any woman who doesn't fit the narrow minded view of what a woman should look like. Just because your cushy life is not impacted does not mean it doesn't matter. That is simply called privilege. Evie Didn't they do the same to Caster Semeya (can't remember how to spell her name) she ended up quitting sports because she couldn't handle the grief she was getting (She was also intersex with XXY chromosomes and produced a high level of testosterone) Is it a male or female I’m confused " Do you know what the word "she" means? | |||
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"Is it a male or female I’m confused " “It” ? 🤔 You know you’re talking about a person not a bag of shopping right? I’d like to think that you don’t realise how that would sounds but for everyone talking about this subject, can we please remember that we are talking about real people with feelings and try to be kind | |||
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"….. My opinion is...got nothing to do with me,my life stays the same so sorry I dont care Then why post a thread about it ?😏 I actually stand like you - it’s not my monkey not my circus. But, a guy or a guy who used to be a guy who now identifies as a woman should have no place competing against a woman who has always biologically been a woman. In my opinion. They’ve got massive advantages (generally) and it’s an unfair fight/race etc from the start. But that isn't the case here. The woman in question is just that and was born female, so the title of the thread is clearly inflammatory despite using ". Some women have higher levels of testosterone and suffer the effects.. Picos https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/polycystic-ovary-syndrome-pcos/symptoms/ Nita" Ah. Thank you, I didn’t know the full story. 🌈 I’ll check it out and see what the fuss is about.  | |||
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"Is it a male or female I’m confused “It” ? 🤔 You know you’re talking about a person not a bag of shopping right? I’d like to think that you don’t realise how that would sounds but for everyone talking about this subject, can we please remember that we are talking about real people with feelings and try to be kind " This. | |||
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"Thank goodness, what I was thinking when I woke up this morning was that we really needed another contentious topic about this. :P" I just came here to say this. It really needs a Vic and Bob "wouldn't let it lie" GIF J | |||
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"Is it a male or female I’m confused “It” ? 🤔 You know you’re talking about a person not a bag of shopping right? I’d like to think that you don’t realise how that would sounds but for everyone talking about this subject, can we please remember that we are talking about real people with feelings and try to be kind This. Did you enjoy watching the boxing ? " | |||
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"Did you enjoy watching the boxing ? " What relevance does my enjoyment of it have on treating someone with respect ? For what it’s worth, no. I don’t enjoy combat sports anyway but that would lead me to dehumanize someone who does compete in them or enjoy them | |||
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"Did you enjoy watching the boxing ? What relevance does my enjoyment of it have on treating someone with respect ? For what it’s worth, no. I don’t enjoy combat sports anyway but that would lead me to dehumanize someone who does compete in them or enjoy them " Silly typo “but that WOULDN’T lead me ” | |||
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"She fought in the Tokyo Olympics where she was whitewashed 5-0 by eventually gold medal winner Kellie Harrington, so apparently it wasn't a problem 3 years ago... Her career knockout percentage is 13.5%, so it seems the "unfair" advantages she's getting from all this excess testosterone is somewhat negligible. I wonder how many people knew this before posting their controversial takes "I love how this Italian boxer was saying she’d never bit hit like that and yet other women boxer have beaten Kehlif. Logic would imply that anyone who hits harder than her must also be banned then regardless of their situation 🤔 Knee jerk reactions all around me thinks | |||
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"She fought in the Tokyo Olympics where she was whitewashed 5-0 by eventually gold medal winner Kellie Harrington, so apparently it wasn't a problem 3 years ago... Her career knockout percentage is 13.5%, so it seems the "unfair" advantages she's getting from all this excess testosterone is somewhat negligible. I wonder how many people knew this before posting their controversial takes "I completely agree. The IOC is trying to be inclusive and respectful for all athletes, which I respect. It’s a shame that other people just knee jerk and can’t do the same | |||
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"She fought in the Tokyo Olympics where she was whitewashed 5-0 by eventually gold medal winner Kellie Harrington, so apparently it wasn't a problem 3 years ago... Her career knockout percentage is 13.5%, so it seems the "unfair" advantages she's getting from all this excess testosterone is somewhat negligible. Did you enjoy watching that lady get battered Bizzare I wonder how many people knew this before posting their controversial takes
I completely agree.
The IOC is trying to be inclusive and respectful for all athletes, which I respect. It’s a shame that other people just knee jerk and can’t do the same" | |||
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"She fought in the Tokyo Olympics where she was whitewashed 5-0 by eventually gold medal winner Kellie Harrington, so apparently it wasn't a problem 3 years ago... Her career knockout percentage is 13.5%, so it seems the "unfair" advantages she's getting from all this excess testosterone is somewhat negligible. Did you enjoy watching that lady get battered Bizzare I wonder how many people knew this before posting their controversial takes
I completely agree.
The IOC is trying to be inclusive and respectful for all athletes, which I respect. It’s a shame that other people just knee jerk and can’t do the same"Can you post your replies at the end of the quote. It's very confusing trying to follow what you are saying anyway but to try and work out where the quote ends and your comment starts makes it so much harder. Evie | |||
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"Did you enjoy watching that lady get battered Bizzare" In so far as enjoying contact sports like that goes, I just don't get it. But, these people have chosen that path, there's a big audience for it, and I assume the majority of matches have a loser. | |||
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"She fought in the Tokyo Olympics where she was whitewashed 5-0 by eventually gold medal winner Kellie Harrington, so apparently it wasn't a problem 3 years ago... Her career knockout percentage is 13.5%, so it seems the "unfair" advantages she's getting from all this excess testosterone is somewhat negligible. Did you enjoy watching that lady get battered Bizzare I wonder how many people knew this before posting their controversial takes
I completely agree.
The IOC is trying to be inclusive and respectful for all athletes, which I respect. It’s a shame that other people just knee jerk and can’t do the same"Did she get battered? Did she not take just one punch and withdraw? Is punching each other not what boxers do? | |||
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"Did you enjoy watching that lady get battered Bizzare" Notwithstanding that this is bordering on a strawman since it has nothing to do with Khelif's career knockout percentage, did you see the actual punch? It barely connected. Angela Carini has also clarified that it wasn't the *power* of the punch that was the issue here. | |||
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"Can you post your replies at the end of the quote. It's very confusing trying to follow what you are saying anyway but to try and work out where the quote ends and your comment starts makes it so much harder. Evie " I’m presuming their comment was the “did you enjoy watching that woman get battered” to which again I’d say “No, I don’t enjoy watching boxing at anytime” but that basis of your logic would imply that anyone who is especially good at something should therefor be disqualified regardless of their situation. Let’s say it again, Kelhif is no unbeaten, there are other women who have beaten her, she is not trans, she is most defo rely not an “it” as you have previously said. Let’s give it up with the knee jerk, dog whistling arguments shall we | |||
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"She fought in the Tokyo Olympics where she was whitewashed 5-0 by eventually gold medal winner Kellie Harrington, so apparently it wasn't a problem 3 years ago... Her career knockout percentage is 13.5%, so it seems the "unfair" advantages she's getting from all this excess testosterone is somewhat negligible. Did you enjoy watching that lady get battered Bizzare I wonder how many people knew this before posting their controversial takes
I completely agree.
The IOC is trying to be inclusive and respectful for all athletes, which I respect. It’s a shame that other people just knee jerk and can’t do the same
Did she get battered? Did she not take just one punch and withdraw? Is punching each other not what boxers do? "Not with someone twice the power very uncomfortable viewing from a male point of view also seems the status quo agree | |||
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"She fought in the Tokyo Olympics where she was whitewashed 5-0 by eventually gold medal winner Kellie Harrington, so apparently it wasn't a problem 3 years ago... Her career knockout percentage is 13.5%, so it seems the "unfair" advantages she's getting from all this excess testosterone is somewhat negligible. Did you enjoy watching that lady get battered Bizzare I wonder how many people knew this before posting their controversial takes
I completely agree.
The IOC is trying to be inclusive and respectful for all athletes, which I respect. It’s a shame that other people just knee jerk and can’t do the same
Did she get battered? Did she not take just one punch and withdraw? Is punching each other not what boxers do?
Not with someone twice the power very uncomfortable viewing from a male point of view also seems the status quo agree "... So everyone that has ever beaten Khelif should be banned from women's boxing too? | |||
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"Unfortunate, I remember how certain guys began to excel in sport around age 15, it was clear they had huge genetic / physical advantages over other boys. We think nothing of this, it’s normal & in sports like boxing, rugby , sprinting I’d imagine genetics play a much bigger role than hard work. Ate any of these tested for unfair advantage? This is my bug bear. Women get tested to prove that they're sufficiently "female" but the genetic advantages that men have simply means they win everything, which nobody questions. For example I believe Michael Plelps naturally produces very low levels of lactic acid. This is a huge advantage to any athlete. Nita" Yup. In the past, female athletes have quite literally had to consent to invasive personal inspections to "prove" their female status, i.e. that they have external female genitalia. It happened to Caster Semenya, who DOES have female genitals. But it's fine for men to have all manner of genetic mutations that advantage them in sports and there's nothing stopping anyone from putting two very poorly matched male boxers in a ring, so long as they meet the weight class. Tyson Fury is so much taller than most super heavyweight boxers that his reach alone, along with immense bulk, is an advantage (the bulk is less of an advantage for moving around the ring). | |||
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"They should just Insert a section for athletes with Hyperandrogenism Into the paralympic games so they can all compete, testerone reducing drugs have not so nice side affects and they would be evenly matched against each other." Have hyperandrogenism isn't generally considered to be a disability. Considering that many genuinely disabled people cannot be classified because they have the "wrong" kind of disability, I'm going to say I totally disagree with this suggestion. | |||
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"It’s almost like gender isn’t wholly binary! Two cis women get in a ring. One knocks the other out. But, oh my God, we have to manufacture how one isn’t sufficiently female enough. The net result is everyone gets policed - women who appear too masculine, men who appear too feminine... What begins as shit thrown against trans people then starts smacking into cis men and women who don’t quite meet the criteria the bigots construct as well. It’s the end game of this whole transphobia bullshit - people expected to conform precisely to strict gender aesthetics. No. Absolutely not. " *Applause* | |||
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"She fought in the Tokyo Olympics where she was whitewashed 5-0 by eventually gold medal winner Kellie Harrington, so apparently it wasn't a problem 3 years ago... Her career knockout percentage is 13.5%, so it seems the "unfair" advantages she's getting from all this excess testosterone is somewhat negligible. Did you enjoy watching that lady get battered Bizzare I wonder how many people knew this before posting their controversial takes
I completely agree.
The IOC is trying to be inclusive and respectful for all athletes, which I respect. It’s a shame that other people just knee jerk and can’t do the same
Did she get battered? Did she not take just one punch and withdraw? Is punching each other not what boxers do?
Not with someone twice the power very uncomfortable viewing from a male point of view also seems the status quo agree "What does Francis Rossi know anyway, eh? Lots of boxers get absolutely pulverised by opponents that are better than them. Why is this particular fight an issue for you? Why was this fight in particular uncomfortable viewing? | |||
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"Have hyperandrogenism isn't generally considered to be a disability. Considering that many genuinely disabled people cannot be classified because they have the "wrong" kind of disability, I'm going to say I totally disagree with this suggestion. " Even if it were, would there even be enough people to be able to form competitive brackets? | |||
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"Have hyperandrogenism isn't generally considered to be a disability. Considering that many genuinely disabled people cannot be classified because they have the "wrong" kind of disability, I'm going to say I totally disagree with this suggestion. Even if it were, would there even be enough people to be able to form competitive brackets?" A good question. I think most people with extremely elevated androgens actually are unaware, as are many people with things like differences of sexual development. People assigned female at birth more often realise if they find that they don't get menstrual periods or struggle to conceive. But many males with DSD or elevated androgens or whatever, simply never know. | |||
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"Although she’s not a trans, she just has high testosterone levels, brilliant career to be in if you’re built like an outhouse!" You make it sound like neither has been beaten in their boxing careers…. One has been beaten 9 times in her career.. the other 14 times! It’s not a transgender issue….. anyone calling it that is either lazy or believing really sloppy journalism…. | |||
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"She fought in the Tokyo Olympics where she was whitewashed 5-0 by eventually gold medal winner Kellie Harrington, so apparently it wasn't a problem 3 years ago... Her career knockout percentage is 13.5%, so it seems the "unfair" advantages she's getting from all this excess testosterone is somewhat negligible. Did you enjoy watching that lady get battered Bizzare I wonder how many people knew this before posting their controversial takes
I completely agree.
The IOC is trying to be inclusive and respectful for all athletes, which I respect. It’s a shame that other people just knee jerk and can’t do the same
Did she get battered? Did she not take just one punch and withdraw? Is punching each other not what boxers do?
Not with someone twice the power very uncomfortable viewing from a male point of view also seems the status quo agree "Di they gave twice their power? Where is that stated? Evie | |||
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"Have hyperandrogenism isn't generally considered to be a disability. Considering that many genuinely disabled people cannot be classified because they have the "wrong" kind of disability, I'm going to say I totally disagree with this suggestion. Even if it were, would there even be enough people to be able to form competitive brackets? A good question. I think most people with extremely elevated androgens actually are unaware, as are many people with things like differences of sexual development. People assigned female at birth more often realise if they find that they don't get menstrual periods or struggle to conceive. But many males with DSD or elevated androgens or whatever, simply never know. " Absolutely. I have PCOS and so have hirsutism, classic apple bodies weight gain, ridiculously muscly legs (I look like a chuppa chup) and I suspect elevated androgens but I've never been tested to see what they are. Had I the inclination I am sure I'd do rather well in strength competitions against other women. Would I be wrong for using my biological hormonal irregularities? (Not asking you, a general question to the room lol) Evie | |||
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"Have hyperandrogenism isn't generally considered to be a disability. Considering that many genuinely disabled people cannot be classified because they have the "wrong" kind of disability, I'm going to say I totally disagree with this suggestion. Even if it were, would there even be enough people to be able to form competitive brackets? A good question. I think most people with extremely elevated androgens actually are unaware, as are many people with things like differences of sexual development. People assigned female at birth more often realise if they find that they don't get menstrual periods or struggle to conceive. But many males with DSD or elevated androgens or whatever, simply never know. Absolutely. I have PCOS and so have hirsutism, classic apple bodies weight gain, ridiculously muscly legs (I look like a chuppa chup) and I suspect elevated androgens but I've never been tested to see what they are. Had I the inclination I am sure I'd do rather well in strength competitions against other women. Would I be wrong for using my biological hormonal irregularities? (Not asking you, a general question to the room lol) Evie " I don't have anything formally diagnosed but I definitely have some issue with my lady hormones. I'm incredibly strong for the average woman, I trained with the "boys" group when I was training in discus and shot put as a teenager and am and was a very non-feminine physique. I've never wanted to box in a ring, but I do spar for fitness and I know I can punch HARD. I'm also pretty confident I'm genetically female and have managed to pop out 2 children etc. However, I have no concrete knowledge of my own genotype! I reckon if I decided to box (or more accurately, had decided when able bodied), I'd have had an advantage over most women. | |||
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"Have hyperandrogenism isn't generally considered to be a disability. Considering that many genuinely disabled people cannot be classified because they have the "wrong" kind of disability, I'm going to say I totally disagree with this suggestion. Even if it were, would there even be enough people to be able to form competitive brackets? A good question. I think most people with extremely elevated androgens actually are unaware, as are many people with things like differences of sexual development. People assigned female at birth more often realise if they find that they don't get menstrual periods or struggle to conceive. But many males with DSD or elevated androgens or whatever, simply never know. Absolutely. I have PCOS and so have hirsutism, classic apple bodies weight gain, ridiculously muscly legs (I look like a chuppa chup) and I suspect elevated androgens but I've never been tested to see what they are. Had I the inclination I am sure I'd do rather well in strength competitions against other women. Would I be wrong for using my biological hormonal irregularities? (Not asking you, a general question to the room lol) Evie I don't have anything formally diagnosed but I definitely have some issue with my lady hormones. I'm incredibly strong for the average woman, I trained with the "boys" group when I was training in discus and shot put as a teenager and am and was a very non-feminine physique. I've never wanted to box in a ring, but I do spar for fitness and I know I can punch HARD. I'm also pretty confident I'm genetically female and have managed to pop out 2 children etc. However, I have no concrete knowledge of my own genotype! I reckon if I decided to box (or more accurately, had decided when able bodied), I'd have had an advantage over most women. " If you are indeed a stronger than average woman that's fine. You should utilise this characteristic to your advantage. This boxer here is not doing that though. She produces testosterone to such high levels that they are in the range of a man. They are a such a high level, if another female boxer was shown to have such levels on a drugs test she would be banned. She shouldn't be allowed to compete because of this. Mrs x | |||
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"If you are indeed a stronger than average woman that's fine. You should utilise this characteristic to your advantage. This boxer here is not doing that though. She produces testosterone to such high levels that they are in the range of a man. They are a such a high level, if another female boxer was shown to have such levels on a drugs test she would be banned. She shouldn't be allowed to compete because of this. Mrs x" Oh. Where are the published proofs of her testosterone levels? I've only seen hearsay and a claim from a Russian governing body that doesn't even have testosterone checks in their standard testing 💜 | |||
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"Have hyperandrogenism isn't generally considered to be a disability. Considering that many genuinely disabled people cannot be classified because they have the "wrong" kind of disability, I'm going to say I totally disagree with this suggestion. Even if it were, would there even be enough people to be able to form competitive brackets? A good question. I think most people with extremely elevated androgens actually are unaware, as are many people with things like differences of sexual development. People assigned female at birth more often realise if they find that they don't get menstrual periods or struggle to conceive. But many males with DSD or elevated androgens or whatever, simply never know. Absolutely. I have PCOS and so have hirsutism, classic apple bodies weight gain, ridiculously muscly legs (I look like a chuppa chup) and I suspect elevated androgens but I've never been tested to see what they are. Had I the inclination I am sure I'd do rather well in strength competitions against other women. Would I be wrong for using my biological hormonal irregularities? (Not asking you, a general question to the room lol) Evie I don't have anything formally diagnosed but I definitely have some issue with my lady hormones. I'm incredibly strong for the average woman, I trained with the "boys" group when I was training in discus and shot put as a teenager and am and was a very non-feminine physique. I've never wanted to box in a ring, but I do spar for fitness and I know I can punch HARD. I'm also pretty confident I'm genetically female and have managed to pop out 2 children etc. However, I have no concrete knowledge of my own genotype! I reckon if I decided to box (or more accurately, had decided when able bodied), I'd have had an advantage over most women. If you are indeed a stronger than average woman that's fine. You should utilise this characteristic to your advantage. This boxer here is not doing that though. She produces testosterone to such high levels that they are in the range of a man. They are a such a high level, if another female boxer was shown to have such levels on a drugs test she would be banned. She shouldn't be allowed to compete because of this. Mrs x" I have no idea what my testosterone levels are, they've never been tested. There's a problem with arbitrary "levels" of hormones though, and there's a big problem with deciding women can only ever have testosterone levels below a certain level. There are people happily mooching around in the general population with hormone levels outside of the "normal" ranges, they just never know about it. My thyroid hormones are constantly outside of the normal ranges because if they are within the normal ranges, I am ill. I am currently suppressing my oestrogen to almost zero and feel amazing, oestrogen makes me feel ill as fuck even though I'm female. Weird, eh? | |||
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"If you are indeed a stronger than average woman that's fine. You should utilise this characteristic to your advantage. This boxer here is not doing that though. She produces testosterone to such high levels that they are in the range of a man. They are a such a high level, if another female boxer was shown to have such levels on a drugs test she would be banned. She shouldn't be allowed to compete because of this. Mrs x Oh. Where are the published proofs of her testosterone levels? I've only seen hearsay and a claim from a Russian governing body that doesn't even have testosterone checks in their standard testing 💜" The medical reports are confidential and the IOC who absolutely hate the IBA even confirmed that the test the IBA conducted on these boxers showed both boxers failed them. This is not disputed. Mrs x | |||
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"What a world we live in Been on Facebook and people are mad about this woman My opinion is...got nothing to do with me,my life stays the same so sorry I dont care" So why post here? | |||
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"The medical reports are confidential and the IOC who absolutely hate the IBA even confirmed that the test the IBA conducted on these boxers showed both boxers failed them. This is not disputed. Mrs x" The IBA also confirmed that testoerone tests were not included. So where is the claim made earlier regarding her testosterone levels coming from exactly? | |||
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"What a world we live in Been on Facebook and people are mad about this woman My opinion is...got nothing to do with me,my life stays the same so sorry I dont care If you are saying it has nothing to do with you and you don’t care why make the post. This is one of the problems with any form of social media it can cause things to be stirred up " This... | |||
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"Have hyperandrogenism isn't generally considered to be a disability. Considering that many genuinely disabled people cannot be classified because they have the "wrong" kind of disability, I'm going to say I totally disagree with this suggestion. Even if it were, would there even be enough people to be able to form competitive brackets? A good question. I think most people with extremely elevated androgens actually are unaware, as are many people with things like differences of sexual development. People assigned female at birth more often realise if they find that they don't get menstrual periods or struggle to conceive. But many males with DSD or elevated androgens or whatever, simply never know. Absolutely. I have PCOS and so have hirsutism, classic apple bodies weight gain, ridiculously muscly legs (I look like a chuppa chup) and I suspect elevated androgens but I've never been tested to see what they are. Had I the inclination I am sure I'd do rather well in strength competitions against other women. Would I be wrong for using my biological hormonal irregularities? (Not asking you, a general question to the room lol) Evie I don't have anything formally diagnosed but I definitely have some issue with my lady hormones. I'm incredibly strong for the average woman, I trained with the "boys" group when I was training in discus and shot put as a teenager and am and was a very non-feminine physique. I've never wanted to box in a ring, but I do spar for fitness and I know I can punch HARD. I'm also pretty confident I'm genetically female and have managed to pop out 2 children etc. However, I have no concrete knowledge of my own genotype! I reckon if I decided to box (or more accurately, had decided when able bodied), I'd have had an advantage over most women. If you are indeed a stronger than average woman that's fine. You should utilise this characteristic to your advantage. This boxer here is not doing that though. She produces testosterone to such high levels that they are in the range of a man. They are a such a high level, if another female boxer was shown to have such levels on a drugs test she would be banned. She shouldn't be allowed to compete because of this. Mrs x I have no idea what my testosterone levels are, they've never been tested. There's a problem with arbitrary "levels" of hormones though, and there's a big problem with deciding women can only ever have testosterone levels below a certain level. There are people happily mooching around in the general population with hormone levels outside of the "normal" ranges, they just never know about it. My thyroid hormones are constantly outside of the normal ranges because if they are within the normal ranges, I am ill. I am currently suppressing my oestrogen to almost zero and feel amazing, oestrogen makes me feel ill as fuck even though I'm female. Weird, eh? " You are absolutely right and I agree with you. The issue here is that those individuals are not competing in a sport we're there are proscribed limits for things. In this case she is and unfortunately she produces way to much testosterone. She would be way over the limit and indeed is obly clean now because the Olympic Committe changed the rules recently. So as long as she is under the limit, I think it's from two months before the event that's OK. Problem with that is that discounts the historical benefits of testosterone, which is huge and also there's the issue that if say she only ever competed at the Olympics, she could go 3 years, 20 months between competitions on super high testosterone level, only to 'control' them in the eight weeks leading up to a fight. Her competitors cannot do this. It's blatantly unfair and not a level playing field. Mrs x | |||
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"The medical reports are confidential and the IOC who absolutely hate the IBA even confirmed that the test the IBA conducted on these boxers showed both boxers failed them. This is not disputed. Mrs x The IBA also confirmed that testoerone tests were not included. So where is the claim made earlier regarding her testosterone levels coming from exactly?" Yeah I'm aware of this but in the IOCs press statement, confirming the IBAs decision to ban these two boxers previously, they state that this boxer did indeed fail a testosterone test. They need to get their acts together and apply consistent rules. Mrs x | |||
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"The medical reports are confidential and the IOC who absolutely hate the IBA even confirmed that the test the IBA conducted on these boxers showed both boxers failed them. This is not disputed. Mrs x The IBA also confirmed that testoerone tests were not included. So where is the claim made earlier regarding her testosterone levels coming from exactly?Yeah I'm aware of this but in the IOCs press statement, confirming the IBAs decision to ban these two boxers previously, they state that this boxer did indeed fail a testosterone test. They need to get their acts together and apply consistent rules. Mrs x" Perhaps Russian testosterone levels are generally lower than other countries. Maybe we shouldn't allow people from different countries to compete with each other. It's just not fair 💜 | |||
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"Have hyperandrogenism isn't generally considered to be a disability. Considering that many genuinely disabled people cannot be classified because they have the "wrong" kind of disability, I'm going to say I totally disagree with this suggestion. Even if it were, would there even be enough people to be able to form competitive brackets? A good question. I think most people with extremely elevated androgens actually are unaware, as are many people with things like differences of sexual development. People assigned female at birth more often realise if they find that they don't get menstrual periods or struggle to conceive. But many males with DSD or elevated androgens or whatever, simply never know. Absolutely. I have PCOS and so have hirsutism, classic apple bodies weight gain, ridiculously muscly legs (I look like a chuppa chup) and I suspect elevated androgens but I've never been tested to see what they are. Had I the inclination I am sure I'd do rather well in strength competitions against other women. Would I be wrong for using my biological hormonal irregularities? (Not asking you, a general question to the room lol) Evie I don't have anything formally diagnosed but I definitely have some issue with my lady hormones. I'm incredibly strong for the average woman, I trained with the "boys" group when I was training in discus and shot put as a teenager and am and was a very non-feminine physique. I've never wanted to box in a ring, but I do spar for fitness and I know I can punch HARD. I'm also pretty confident I'm genetically female and have managed to pop out 2 children etc. However, I have no concrete knowledge of my own genotype! I reckon if I decided to box (or more accurately, had decided when able bodied), I'd have had an advantage over most women. If you are indeed a stronger than average woman that's fine. You should utilise this characteristic to your advantage. This boxer here is not doing that though. She produces testosterone to such high levels that they are in the range of a man. They are a such a high level, if another female boxer was shown to have such levels on a drugs test she would be banned. She shouldn't be allowed to compete because of this. Mrs x I have no idea what my testosterone levels are, they've never been tested. There's a problem with arbitrary "levels" of hormones though, and there's a big problem with deciding women can only ever have testosterone levels below a certain level. There are people happily mooching around in the general population with hormone levels outside of the "normal" ranges, they just never know about it. My thyroid hormones are constantly outside of the normal ranges because if they are within the normal ranges, I am ill. I am currently suppressing my oestrogen to almost zero and feel amazing, oestrogen makes me feel ill as fuck even though I'm female. Weird, eh? You are absolutely right and I agree with you. The issue here is that those individuals are not competing in a sport we're there are proscribed limits for things. In this case she is and unfortunately she produces way to much testosterone. She would be way over the limit and indeed is obly clean now because the Olympic Committe changed the rules recently. So as long as she is under the limit, I think it's from two months before the event that's OK. Problem with that is that discounts the historical benefits of testosterone, which is huge and also there's the issue that if say she only ever competed at the Olympics, she could go 3 years, 20 months between competitions on super high testosterone level, only to 'control' them in the eight weeks leading up to a fight. Her competitors cannot do this. It's blatantly unfair and not a level playing field. Mrs x" Which sports ARE level playing fields? | |||
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"What a world we live in Been on Facebook and people are mad about this woman My opinion is...got nothing to do with me,my life stays the same so sorry I dont care If you are saying it has nothing to do with you and you don’t care why make the post. This is one of the problems with any form of social media it can cause things to be stirred up " ......and so many go out of their way to do so. Light the blue touch paper and stand back..... | |||
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"Unfortunate, I remember how certain guys began to excel in sport around age 15, it was clear they had huge genetic / physical advantages over other boys. We think nothing of this, it’s normal & in sports like boxing, rugby , sprinting I’d imagine genetics play a much bigger role than hard work. Ate any of these tested for unfair advantage? " Absolutely this. Fast bowlers who are able to bowl at 90+ mph are able to do so because of their genetics, even if they all fine tunntheir technique. We don't ban those bowlers just because they're more of a danger to the batsman. Where do people want the line to be?  | |||
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"The medical reports are confidential and the IOC who absolutely hate the IBA even confirmed that the test the IBA conducted on these boxers showed both boxers failed them. This is not disputed. Mrs x The IBA also confirmed that testoerone tests were not included. So where is the claim made earlier regarding her testosterone levels coming from exactly?Yeah I'm aware of this but in the IOCs press statement, confirming the IBAs decision to ban these two boxers previously, they state that this boxer did indeed fail a testosterone test. They need to get their acts together and apply consistent rules. Mrs x Perhaps Russian testosterone levels are generally lower than other countries. Maybe we shouldn't allow people from different countries to compete with each other. It's just not fair 💜" Nothing to do with different countries having different levels. These are the boards of control for their sports. Like Fifa controls football worldwide, not just in Switzerland where it's based. I think the issue her is that she produces in naturally and has not tried to cheat. Unfortunately the fact that it occurs naturally has no bearing. Testosterone is banned because it has proven advantages when taken at certain levels to aid performance. It's the substance that's banned not the mechanics of delivery. So it doesn't matter if you are injecting it or your body produces too much of it, if its in your system, over the allowed level, when you are tested then you should be banned. I think it's very emotive issue, people being horrid calling her a man and all that, to others who think because it's produced naturally it should be OK. It's purely to do with the amount of testosterone in the body. This would, or maybe a should say should because of this madness, apply equally to a man. It's a sad situation for her, her competitors, the sport and the fans. Mrs x | |||
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"Have hyperandrogenism isn't generally considered to be a disability. Considering that many genuinely disabled people cannot be classified because they have the "wrong" kind of disability, I'm going to say I totally disagree with this suggestion. Even if it were, would there even be enough people to be able to form competitive brackets? A good question. I think most people with extremely elevated androgens actually are unaware, as are many people with things like differences of sexual development. People assigned female at birth more often realise if they find that they don't get menstrual periods or struggle to conceive. But many males with DSD or elevated androgens or whatever, simply never know. Absolutely. I have PCOS and so have hirsutism, classic apple bodies weight gain, ridiculously muscly legs (I look like a chuppa chup) and I suspect elevated androgens but I've never been tested to see what they are. Had I the inclination I am sure I'd do rather well in strength competitions against other women. Would I be wrong for using my biological hormonal irregularities? (Not asking you, a general question to the room lol) Evie I don't have anything formally diagnosed but I definitely have some issue with my lady hormones. I'm incredibly strong for the average woman, I trained with the "boys" group when I was training in discus and shot put as a teenager and am and was a very non-feminine physique. I've never wanted to box in a ring, but I do spar for fitness and I know I can punch HARD. I'm also pretty confident I'm genetically female and have managed to pop out 2 children etc. However, I have no concrete knowledge of my own genotype! I reckon if I decided to box (or more accurately, had decided when able bodied), I'd have had an advantage over most women. If you are indeed a stronger than average woman that's fine. You should utilise this characteristic to your advantage. This boxer here is not doing that though. She produces testosterone to such high levels that they are in the range of a man. They are a such a high level, if another female boxer was shown to have such levels on a drugs test she would be banned. She shouldn't be allowed to compete because of this. Mrs x I have no idea what my testosterone levels are, they've never been tested. There's a problem with arbitrary "levels" of hormones though, and there's a big problem with deciding women can only ever have testosterone levels below a certain level. There are people happily mooching around in the general population with hormone levels outside of the "normal" ranges, they just never know about it. My thyroid hormones are constantly outside of the normal ranges because if they are within the normal ranges, I am ill. I am currently suppressing my oestrogen to almost zero and feel amazing, oestrogen makes me feel ill as fuck even though I'm female. Weird, eh? You are absolutely right and I agree with you. The issue here is that those individuals are not competing in a sport we're there are proscribed limits for things. In this case she is and unfortunately she produces way to much testosterone. She would be way over the limit and indeed is obly clean now because the Olympic Committe changed the rules recently. So as long as she is under the limit, I think it's from two months before the event that's OK. Problem with that is that discounts the historical benefits of testosterone, which is huge and also there's the issue that if say she only ever competed at the Olympics, she could go 3 years, 20 months between competitions on super high testosterone level, only to 'control' them in the eight weeks leading up to a fight. Her competitors cannot do this. It's blatantly unfair and not a level playing field. Mrs x Which sports ARE level playing fields?" So if it's naturally occurring then you are OK with that? Just so I know your position because it's dropping into the realms of semantics a bit. So natural occurring stuff should be allowed and not regulated? Mrs x | |||
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"I can't help but think that if she'd been white, blonde, Christian and from Kent or Iowa, then this would have played out very differently. " Think you're completely wrong on that - no race issues have been brought into this. There was a Boxing match between two white Americans around 2004, one of whom was trans. The non trans woman got quite literally battered (horrifying photos were shown online after) and as a result the discussions began around what wasn't acceptable in certain sports. In this particular case I feel for both Boxers in different ways. Neither was at fault here, nor did anything wrong. The IOC however are an utter disgrace and have acted in a most cowardly manner. Basing their rules purely on a passport entry (their statement) sets a dangerous precedent. My read of that was that as far as they're concer it'll be OK when someone dies in the ring as 'that's just sport....'. I believe strongly in protected characteristics as there are those in our world who would absolutely behave despicably to someone within the LBTQT+ community, but there has to be common sense displayed in some areas - everyone has a right to not be discriminated against, or disadvantaged, not just the minority. To be honest I'd just like to see what the IOC do if all the other women withdrew. Would be a huge own goal for them and a moment of decision for everyone due to their cowardly, head in the sand inaction. | |||
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"….. My opinion is...got nothing to do with me,my life stays the same so sorry I dont care Then why post a thread about it ?😏 I actually stand like you - it’s not my monkey not my circus. But, a guy or a guy who used to be a guy who now identifies as a woman should have no place competing against a woman who has always biologically been a woman. In my opinion. They’ve got massive advantages (generally) and it’s an unfair fight/race etc from the start. But that isn't the case here. The woman in question is just that and was born female, so the title of the thread is clearly inflammatory despite using ". Some women have higher levels of testosterone and suffer the effects.. Picos https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/polycystic-ovary-syndrome-pcos/symptoms/ Nita" | |||
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"The medical reports are confidential and the IOC who absolutely hate the IBA even confirmed that the test the IBA conducted on these boxers showed both boxers failed them. This is not disputed. Mrs x The IBA also confirmed that testoerone tests were not included. So where is the claim made earlier regarding her testosterone levels coming from exactly?Yeah I'm aware of this but in the IOCs press statement, confirming the IBAs decision to ban these two boxers previously, they state that this boxer did indeed fail a testosterone test. They need to get their acts together and apply consistent rules. Mrs x Perhaps Russian testosterone levels are generally lower than other countries. Maybe we shouldn't allow people from different countries to compete with each other. It's just not fair 💜Nothing to do with different countries having different levels. These are the boards of control for their sports. Like Fifa controls football worldwide, not just in Switzerland where it's based. I think the issue her is that she produces in naturally and has not tried to cheat. Unfortunately the fact that it occurs naturally has no bearing. Testosterone is banned because it has proven advantages when taken at certain levels to aid performance. It's the substance that's banned not the mechanics of delivery. So it doesn't matter if you are injecting it or your body produces too much of it, if its in your system, over the allowed level, when you are tested then you should be banned. I think it's very emotive issue, people being horrid calling her a man and all that, to others who think because it's produced naturally it should be OK. It's purely to do with the amount of testosterone in the body. This would, or maybe a should say should because of this madness, apply equally to a man. It's a sad situation for her, her competitors, the sport and the fans. Mrs x" Very well put. | |||
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"Unfortunate, I remember how certain guys began to excel in sport around age 15, it was clear they had huge genetic / physical advantages over other boys. We think nothing of this, it’s normal & in sports like boxing, rugby , sprinting I’d imagine genetics play a much bigger role than hard work. Ate any of these tested for unfair advantage? Absolutely this. Fast bowlers who are able to bowl at 90+ mph are able to do so because of their genetics, even if they all fine tunntheir technique. We don't ban those bowlers just because they're more of a danger to the batsman. Where do people want the line to be? "Bowlers who take testosterone and dope themselves will be banned. That's the same as here, too much test means a ban, regardless how it got there. Believe Chris Wright, the bowler, got a ban for failing a dope test. This is not something controversial I'm saying, it happens in most if not all sports at a certain level. It's just of the extra ordinary circumstances here that it's creating such a shit storm. Mrs x | |||
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"Ad nausea, the fabrication of these poor women's situations and creation of false stories is horrendous. Let them be, in peace " This is so true, it's got to be devastating for these woman and people should remember they have feelings like the rest of us, Mrs x | |||
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"Absolutely this. Fast bowlers who are able to bowl at 90+ mph are able to do so because of their genetics, even if they all fine tunntheir technique. We don't ban those bowlers just because they're more of a danger to the batsman. Where do people want the line to be? Bowlers who take testosterone and dope themselves will be banned.
That's the same as here, too much test means a ban, regardless how it got there.
Believe Chris Wright, the bowler, got a ban for failing a dope test.
This is not something controversial I'm saying, it happens in most if not all sports at a certain level.
It's just of the extra ordinary circumstances here that it's creating such a shit storm.
Mrs x"Yes, but this boxer hasn't been doping though. It's naturally produced because of her genetics so my argument was more a case of where do we draw the line of how much genetics plays a part that a sportsperson should be penalised for it? | |||
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"I can't help but think that if she'd been white, blonde, Christian and from Kent or Iowa, then this would have played out very differently. " You can’t help but note the backgrounds at play here but if any I felt it was less to do with the background of Kelhif than it was about the people maki g an issue out of it e.g. Russia initial with the championships and Italy who seem to heading more right wing all the time. People with axes to grind have a tendency to try to stir up the masses with wild claims, insinuations and mis-information to support their cause and couldn’t help but wonder if that’s more the case here | |||
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"I can't help but think that if she'd been white, blonde, Christian and from Kent or Iowa, then this would have played out very differently. You can’t help but note the backgrounds at play here but if any I felt it was less to do with the background of Kelhif than it was about the people maki g an issue out of it e.g. Russia initial with the championships and Italy who seem to heading more right wing all the time. People with axes to grind have a tendency to try to stir up the masses with wild claims, insinuations and mis-information to support their cause and couldn’t help but wonder if that’s more the case here " That's also potentially true. While I don't believe this should be taking place it's no fault of the Algerian Boxer. | |||
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"Have hyperandrogenism isn't generally considered to be a disability. Considering that many genuinely disabled people cannot be classified because they have the "wrong" kind of disability, I'm going to say I totally disagree with this suggestion. Even if it were, would there even be enough people to be able to form competitive brackets? A good question. I think most people with extremely elevated androgens actually are unaware, as are many people with things like differences of sexual development. People assigned female at birth more often realise if they find that they don't get menstrual periods or struggle to conceive. But many males with DSD or elevated androgens or whatever, simply never know. Absolutely. I have PCOS and so have hirsutism, classic apple bodies weight gain, ridiculously muscly legs (I look like a chuppa chup) and I suspect elevated androgens but I've never been tested to see what they are. Had I the inclination I am sure I'd do rather well in strength competitions against other women. Would I be wrong for using my biological hormonal irregularities? (Not asking you, a general question to the room lol) Evie I don't have anything formally diagnosed but I definitely have some issue with my lady hormones. I'm incredibly strong for the average woman, I trained with the "boys" group when I was training in discus and shot put as a teenager and am and was a very non-feminine physique. I've never wanted to box in a ring, but I do spar for fitness and I know I can punch HARD. I'm also pretty confident I'm genetically female and have managed to pop out 2 children etc. However, I have no concrete knowledge of my own genotype! I reckon if I decided to box (or more accurately, had decided when able bodied), I'd have had an advantage over most women. If you are indeed a stronger than average woman that's fine. You should utilise this characteristic to your advantage. This boxer here is not doing that though. She produces testosterone to such high levels that they are in the range of a man. They are a such a high level, if another female boxer was shown to have such levels on a drugs test she would be banned. She shouldn't be allowed to compete because of this. Mrs x I have no idea what my testosterone levels are, they've never been tested. There's a problem with arbitrary "levels" of hormones though, and there's a big problem with deciding women can only ever have testosterone levels below a certain level. There are people happily mooching around in the general population with hormone levels outside of the "normal" ranges, they just never know about it. My thyroid hormones are constantly outside of the normal ranges because if they are within the normal ranges, I am ill. I am currently suppressing my oestrogen to almost zero and feel amazing, oestrogen makes me feel ill as fuck even though I'm female. Weird, eh? You are absolutely right and I agree with you. The issue here is that those individuals are not competing in a sport we're there are proscribed limits for things. In this case she is and unfortunately she produces way to much testosterone. She would be way over the limit and indeed is obly clean now because the Olympic Committe changed the rules recently. So as long as she is under the limit, I think it's from two months before the event that's OK. Problem with that is that discounts the historical benefits of testosterone, which is huge and also there's the issue that if say she only ever competed at the Olympics, she could go 3 years, 20 months between competitions on super high testosterone level, only to 'control' them in the eight weeks leading up to a fight. Her competitors cannot do this. It's blatantly unfair and not a level playing field. Mrs x Which sports ARE level playing fields?So if it's naturally occurring then you are OK with that? Just so I know your position because it's dropping into the realms of semantics a bit. So natural occurring stuff should be allowed and not regulated? Mrs x" Yes. If we start trying to regulate naturally occuring hormone levels among women (because we never do among men), what other characteristics will be next? Only people of X height allowed to play basketball? Only people with X percent fast twitch muscle can sprint? Every elite sportsperson has natural, genetically encoded advantage over their peers. | |||
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"I think the issue her is that she produces in naturally and has not tried to cheat. Unfortunately the fact that it occurs naturally has no bearing. Testosterone is banned because it has proven advantages when taken at certain levels to aid performance. It's the substance that's banned not the mechanics of delivery. So it doesn't matter if you are injecting it or your body produces too much of it, if its in your system, over the allowed level, when you are tested then you should be banned. I think it's very emotive issue, people being horrid calling her a man and all that, to others who think because it's produced naturally it should be OK. It's purely to do with the amount of testosterone in the body. This would, or maybe a should say should because of this madness, apply equally to a man. It's a sad situation for her, her competitors, the sport and the fans. Mrs x" But it doesn't apply equally to a man. Many people are born with genetics that make them strong competitors in various things. Height is a known factor in basketball, nobody gets banned for being too tall because it's unfair on the rest of the players. Perhaps she only had high testosterone because of the point in her menstrual cycle. Hell I'm sure I have more testosterone than all the men in my office combined at certain points in the month. There's been absolutely no medical proof of any claims made against her. She is a woman. She was born a woman, lives her life as a woman, and should absolutely be allowed to compete with other women. Pretty sure she has more losses than wins in major competitions. One opponent having a hard time taking a hit does not make her a threat to the integrity of the sport. | |||
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"Yes. If we start trying to regulate naturally occuring hormone levels among women (because we never do among men), what other characteristics will be next? Only people of X height allowed to play basketball? Only people with X percent fast twitch muscle can sprint? Every elite sportsperson has natural, genetically encoded advantage over their peers. " This is how I feel about it as well. If we start banning people from sport based on genetic advantages, we either have to start doing that with every other known athlete with a genetic advantage, or acknowledge that there have to be other biases at play here. | |||
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"What was the purpose of this thread To talk about people commenting about something that doesn't matter..its a boxing match between 2 women but the world has gone mad when it doesn't really matter Why doesn't it matter? It matters to her. It matters to other boxers. It matters to other intersex people. It actually matters to any woman who doesn't fit the narrow minded view of what a woman should look like. Just because your cushy life is not impacted does not mean it doesn't matter. That is simply called privilege. Evie Didn't they do the same to Caster Semeya (can't remember how to spell her name) she ended up quitting sports because she couldn't handle the grief she was getting (She was also intersex with XXY chromosomes and produced a high level of testosterone) Is it a male or female I’m confused " SHE is a woman. Please read up so you don't make such a horrible mistake of calling HER an it. | |||
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"Absolutely this. Fast bowlers who are able to bowl at 90+ mph are able to do so because of their genetics, even if they all fine tunntheir technique. We don't ban those bowlers just because they're more of a danger to the batsman. Where do people want the line to be? Bowlers who take testosterone and dope themselves will be banned.
That's the same as here, too much test means a ban, regardless how it got there.
Believe Chris Wright, the bowler, got a ban for failing a dope test.
This is not something controversial I'm saying, it happens in most if not all sports at a certain level.
It's just of the extra ordinary circumstances here that it's creating such a shit storm.
Mrs x
Yes, but this boxer hasn't been doping though. It's naturally produced because of her genetics so my argument was more a case of where do we draw the line of how much genetics plays a part that a sportsperson should be penalised for it?"Where do we draw the line? Well for PEDs the lines been drawn, it's been drawn for awhile.I remember watching Ben Johnson in 1988 at the Seoul Olympics and thinking he's never going to pass a drug test and he didn't. That was almost 40 years ago, so it's not a new thing. It's only now it's an issue because it occurs naturally but that's irrelevant. The only test for levels not how it got there. Higher levels means greater gains in performance. So the levels are already set. Mrs x. | |||
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"The only countries to have raised vocal complaints are ones that are also vocally anti-trans and attempting to undo all the hard won rights afforded to women, trying to restore some kind of "traditional" male-centric testosterone-fest. Namely, Hungary, Italy and Russia. " Please don't do this. She's not trans and it's horrible to suggest she is but it's OK for it to be a 'trans phobic issue for calls to ban her, because she has super high levels of a banned substance in her system normally. That's a bit below the belt. And why is it 'male centered', is it because it's testosterone? Woman produce testosterone naturally, female body builders take it to increase muscle mass and this particular boxer produces excessive amounts of it naturally. So it's not a male thing. It's also not a trans thing or a trans phobic thing, its not even a sex thing, the rules about this applies to guys too. It's just about going an advantage from the effects of having a banned substance in your system. Mrs x | |||
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"The only countries to have raised vocal complaints are ones that are also vocally anti-trans and attempting to undo all the hard won rights afforded to women, trying to restore some kind of "traditional" male-centric testosterone-fest. Namely, Hungary, Italy and Russia. Please don't do this. She's not trans and it's horrible to suggest she is but it's OK for it to be a 'trans phobic issue for calls to ban her, because she has super high levels of a banned substance in her system normally. That's a bit below the belt. And why is it 'male centered', is it because it's testosterone? Woman produce testosterone naturally, female body builders take it to increase muscle mass and this particular boxer produces excessive amounts of it naturally. So it's not a male thing. It's also not a trans thing or a trans phobic thing, its not even a sex thing, the rules about this applies to guys too. It's just about going an advantage from the effects of having a banned substance in your system. Mrs x" I think you've potentially misunderstood the point being made by the comment you've replied to: they're not saying Imane is trans, they're saying that there are people *claiming* she is in order to turn this into an anti-trans argument instead of what it actually is. | |||
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"I may be wrong, but my understanding is that all the IOC did was confirm the failed tests the previous year. I've seen a couple of posts above that state her testosterone is "way above" what is normal for a woman (and other similar descriptors of her testosterone levels). If that wasn't part of the failed test that was conducted in 2023 - and I believe that's on record as being the case - and the test results are not in the public realm, how are the people above privvy to her testosterone levels and able to make statements about how high they are? Surely people aren't -gasp - making things up? " Because the IOC confirmed that she failed a test for testosterone. Mrs x | |||
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"The only countries to have raised vocal complaints are ones that are also vocally anti-trans and attempting to undo all the hard won rights afforded to women, trying to restore some kind of "traditional" male-centric testosterone-fest. Namely, Hungary, Italy and Russia. Please don't do this. She's not trans and it's horrible to suggest she is but it's OK for it to be a 'trans phobic issue for calls to ban her, because she has super high levels of a banned substance in her system normally. That's a bit below the belt. And why is it 'male centered', is it because it's testosterone? Woman produce testosterone naturally, female body builders take it to increase muscle mass and this particular boxer produces excessive amounts of it naturally. So it's not a male thing. It's also not a trans thing or a trans phobic thing, its not even a sex thing, the rules about this applies to guys too. It's just about going an advantage from the effects of having a banned substance in your system. Mrs x" As per my previous post...is there evidence that she has "super high levels" of testosterone. I feel like there's a lot of unsubstantiated extrapolation going on here | |||
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"I may be wrong, but my understanding is that all the IOC did was confirm the failed tests the previous year. I've seen a couple of posts above that state her testosterone is "way above" what is normal for a woman (and other similar descriptors of her testosterone levels). If that wasn't part of the failed test that was conducted in 2023 - and I believe that's on record as being the case - and the test results are not in the public realm, how are the people above privvy to her testosterone levels and able to make statements about how high they are? Surely people aren't -gasp - making things up? Because the IOC confirmed that she failed a test for testosterone. Mrs x" Again. Where is the evidence that her levels are way above. Or super high. | |||
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"The only countries to have raised vocal complaints are ones that are also vocally anti-trans and attempting to undo all the hard won rights afforded to women, trying to restore some kind of "traditional" male-centric testosterone-fest. Namely, Hungary, Italy and Russia. Please don't do this. She's not trans and it's horrible to suggest she is but it's OK for it to be a 'trans phobic issue for calls to ban her, because she has super high levels of a banned substance in her system normally. That's a bit below the belt. And why is it 'male centered', is it because it's testosterone? Woman produce testosterone naturally, female body builders take it to increase muscle mass and this particular boxer produces excessive amounts of it naturally. So it's not a male thing. It's also not a trans thing or a trans phobic thing, its not even a sex thing, the rules about this applies to guys too. It's just about going an advantage from the effects of having a banned substance in your system. Mrs x" I've clearly stated about 15 times across the various posts that the women boxers concerned ARE indeed women. I do not think they are trans. But the countries making the complaints ARE conflating them with transgender people and ARE publicly revelling in being anti-trans. You don't need me to tell you what Georgia Meloni, Victor Orban and Vladimir Putin stand for. And you don't need me to explain why athletes and/or coaches might feel under pressure to conform to the narrative that the Government of their nation subscribes to. My view is that both women are women, always have been and always will be and can compete as such in any sport. I've made that plain throughout. You keep blathering on about performance enhancing drugs, as if PEDs are relevant to this case. They are not. Neither athlete has been accused of doping and any comparison to athletes using PEDs is not only irrelevant but disingenuous. | |||
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"The only countries to have raised vocal complaints are ones that are also vocally anti-trans and attempting to undo all the hard won rights afforded to women, trying to restore some kind of "traditional" male-centric testosterone-fest. Namely, Hungary, Italy and Russia. Please don't do this. She's not trans and it's horrible to suggest she is but it's OK for it to be a 'trans phobic issue for calls to ban her, because she has super high levels of a banned substance in her system normally. That's a bit below the belt. And why is it 'male centered', is it because it's testosterone? Woman produce testosterone naturally, female body builders take it to increase muscle mass and this particular boxer produces excessive amounts of it naturally. So it's not a male thing. It's also not a trans thing or a trans phobic thing, its not even a sex thing, the rules about this applies to guys too. It's just about going an advantage from the effects of having a banned substance in your system. Mrs x I've clearly stated about 15 times across the various posts that the women boxers concerned ARE indeed women. I do not think they are trans. But the countries making the complaints ARE conflating them with transgender people and ARE publicly revelling in being anti-trans. You don't need me to tell you what Georgia Meloni, Victor Orban and Vladimir Putin stand for. And you don't need me to explain why athletes and/or coaches might feel under pressure to conform to the narrative that the Government of their nation subscribes to. My view is that both women are women, always have been and always will be and can compete as such in any sport. I've made that plain throughout. You keep blathering on about performance enhancing drugs, as if PEDs are relevant to this case. They are not. Neither athlete has been accused of doping and any comparison to athletes using PEDs is not only irrelevant but disingenuous. " I'm going to add to this by saying that the relative IOC framework says clearly that there must be no presumed advantage. Advantage must be evidential. | |||
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"Because the IOC confirmed that she failed a test for testosterone. Mrs x" Did they? I see them agreeing that they had failed tests from other governing bodies. Not the specific tests themselves at any point. Nor the actual results of any such tests. I know the claim was that there were XY chromosomes present in the two that were excluded last year. But only one had the additional claim of too much testosterone. But not with any specific tests or results cited. Simply claims made after the fact. | |||
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"The only countries to have raised vocal complaints are ones that are also vocally anti-trans and attempting to undo all the hard won rights afforded to women, trying to restore some kind of "traditional" male-centric testosterone-fest. Namely, Hungary, Italy and Russia. Please don't do this. She's not trans and it's horrible to suggest she is but it's OK for it to be a 'trans phobic issue for calls to ban her, because she has super high levels of a banned substance in her system normally. That's a bit below the belt. And why is it 'male centered', is it because it's testosterone? Woman produce testosterone naturally, female body builders take it to increase muscle mass and this particular boxer produces excessive amounts of it naturally. So it's not a male thing. It's also not a trans thing or a trans phobic thing, its not even a sex thing, the rules about this applies to guys too. It's just about going an advantage from the effects of having a banned substance in your system. Mrs x I've clearly stated about 15 times across the various posts that the women boxers concerned ARE indeed women. I do not think they are trans. But the countries making the complaints ARE conflating them with transgender people and ARE publicly revelling in being anti-trans. You don't need me to tell you what Georgia Meloni, Victor Orban and Vladimir Putin stand for. And you don't need me to explain why athletes and/or coaches might feel under pressure to conform to the narrative that the Government of their nation subscribes to. My view is that both women are women, always have been and always will be and can compete as such in any sport. I've made that plain throughout. You keep blathering on about performance enhancing drugs, as if PEDs are relevant to this case. They are not. Neither athlete has been accused of doping and any comparison to athletes using PEDs is not only irrelevant but disingenuous. " | |||
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"Absolutely this. Fast bowlers who are able to bowl at 90+ mph are able to do so because of their genetics, even if they all fine tunntheir technique. We don't ban those bowlers just because they're more of a danger to the batsman. Where do people want the line to be? Bowlers who take testosterone and dope themselves will be banned.
That's the same as here, too much test means a ban, regardless how it got there.
Believe Chris Wright, the bowler, got a ban for failing a dope test.
This is not something controversial I'm saying, it happens in most if not all sports at a certain level.
It's just of the extra ordinary circumstances here that it's creating such a shit storm.
Mrs x
Yes, but this boxer hasn't been doping though. It's naturally produced because of her genetics so my argument was more a case of where do we draw the line of how much genetics plays a part that a sportsperson should be penalised for it?Where do we draw the line?
Well for PEDs the lines been drawn, it's been drawn for awhile.I remember watching Ben Johnson in 1988 at the Seoul Olympics and thinking he's never going to pass a drug test and he didn't. That was almost 40 years ago, so it's not a new thing.
It's only now it's an issue because it occurs naturally but that's irrelevant. The only test for levels not how it got there. Higher levels means greater gains in performance.
So the levels are already set.
Mrs x."Which the IOC must've tested for and accepted before the games began. So therefore, her Test levels aren't an issue, surely? | |||
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"I think the issue her is that she produces in naturally and has not tried to cheat. Unfortunately the fact that it occurs naturally has no bearing. Testosterone is banned because it has proven advantages when taken at certain levels to aid performance. It's the substance that's banned not the mechanics of delivery. So it doesn't matter if you are injecting it or your body produces too much of it, if its in your system, over the allowed level, when you are tested then you should be banned. I think it's very emotive issue, people being horrid calling her a man and all that, to others who think because it's produced naturally it should be OK. It's purely to do with the amount of testosterone in the body. This would, or maybe a should say should because of this madness, apply equally to a man. It's a sad situation for her, her competitors, the sport and the fans. Mrs x But it doesn't apply equally to a man. Many people are born with genetics that make them strong competitors in various things. Height is a known factor in basketball, nobody gets banned for being too tall because it's unfair on the rest of the players. Perhaps she only had high testosterone because of the point in her menstrual cycle. Hell I'm sure I have more testosterone than all the men in my office combined at certain points in the month. There's been absolutely no medical proof of any claims made against her. She is a woman. She was born a woman, lives her life as a woman, and should absolutely be allowed to compete with other women. Pretty sure she has more losses than wins in major competitions. ¹ opponent having a hard time taking a hit does not make her a threat to the integrity of the sport." So how's it not being applied differently fir men? You mention height but nobodies saying we should ban tall woman from any sport, don't think anyone's been banned for it. Her medical records are confidential and that's why we cannot see them. I don't know about you but I'd be pissed if mine were on public display. The IOC confirmed in their press pack that this boxer failed a testosterone test, so I'd imagine that they would have been made privy to the results, considering they hate the IBA, who banned the boxers. This was from a piece in The Guardian. Testosterone is not set at a zero level and has a range which is acceptable to be within. It will take into account all natural factors for being a female. All athletes get lists of prescribed medications that they cannot take because it may increase testosterone. This also applies to certain foods and drinks and all elite athletes are aware of what they are and what to avoid. This applies to men too but in this instance the range is higher because men have a much higher normal range of testosterone. It's been reported that this boxer has levels of testosterone as high as a man. The losses are irrelevant too. There are a number of reasons why she has suffered them they could have been earlier in her career when she was inexperienced. They could also be because her competitors were simply better. But it's not about her skill it's about her power. Her access to elevated levels of testosterone will have given her an advantage in this. So whilst she may not be the most skillful she is almost certainly going to be the most powerful and will have what's called 'a punchers chance". This means she has the potential of hitting her competitors with a single devastating punch that could cause life threatening injuries. You obly have to look how far a limited boxer with such attributes can go, Deontay Wilder is a perfect example of this. A not so good boxer but with a devastating one punch knockout. Mrs x | |||
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"Absolutely this. Fast bowlers who are able to bowl at 90+ mph are able to do so because of their genetics, even if they all fine tunntheir technique. We don't ban those bowlers just because they're more of a danger to the batsman. Where do people want the line to be? Bowlers who take testosterone and dope themselves will be banned.
That's the same as here, too much test means a ban, regardless how it got there.
Believe Chris Wright, the bowler, got a ban for failing a dope test.
This is not something controversial I'm saying, it happens in most if not all sports at a certain level.
It's just of the extra ordinary circumstances here that it's creating such a shit storm.
Mrs x
Yes, but this boxer hasn't been doping though. It's naturally produced because of her genetics so my argument was more a case of where do we draw the line of how much genetics plays a part that a sportsperson should be penalised for it?Where do we draw the line?
Well for PEDs the lines been drawn, it's been drawn for awhile.I remember watching Ben Johnson in 1988 at the Seoul Olympics and thinking he's never going to pass a drug test and he didn't. That was almost 40 years ago, so it's not a new thing.
It's only now it's an issue because it occurs naturally but that's irrelevant. The only test for levels not how it got there. Higher levels means greater gains in performance.
So the levels are already set.
Mrs x.
Which the IOC must've tested for and accepted before the games began. So therefore, her Test levels aren't an issue, surely?"They are because her physical potential will still be enhanced from prolonged testerone in her system. Her Vo2 will be better, her fast twitch muscle fibers will be more plentiful so she can hit faster. Her strength and power will still be elevated because of this. After the games she can go straight back to her natural state and continue with her elevated production of testosterone, only needing to be within acceptable levels for two months prior to a fight. Mrs x | |||
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"Because the IOC confirmed that she failed a test for testosterone. Mrs x Did they? I see them agreeing that they had failed tests from other governing bodies. Not the specific tests themselves at any point. Nor the actual results of any such tests. I know the claim was that there were XY chromosomes present in the two that were excluded last year. But only one had the additional claim of too much testosterone. But not with any specific tests or results cited. Simply claims made after the fact." Read the article from the Guardian then. They quote from the press pack given to all journalists that attended their press meeting. Mrs x | |||
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"The IOC has now responded to criticism of their eligibility criteria, saying testosterone is 'not a perfect test' and that all athletes competing 'comply with the competition's eligibility and entry regulations'. They added any 'current aggression' was a result of 'a sudden and arbitrary decision' to bar Khelif from the World Championships, made 'without due process'." "All athletes participating in the boxing tournament of the Olympic Games Paris 2024 comply with the competition’s eligibility and entry regulations, as well as all applicable medical regulations set by the Paris 2024 Boxing Unit (PBU)." | |||
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"The only countries to have raised vocal complaints are ones that are also vocally anti-trans and attempting to undo all the hard won rights afforded to women, trying to restore some kind of "traditional" male-centric testosterone-fest. Namely, Hungary, Italy and Russia. Please don't do this. She's not trans and it's horrible to suggest she is but it's OK for it to be a 'trans phobic issue for calls to ban her, because she has super high levels of a banned substance in her system normally. That's a bit below the belt. And why is it 'male centered', is it because it's testosterone? Woman produce testosterone naturally, female body builders take it to increase muscle mass and this particular boxer produces excessive amounts of it naturally. So it's not a male thing. It's also not a trans thing or a trans phobic thing, its not even a sex thing, the rules about this applies to guys too. It's just about going an advantage from the effects of having a banned substance in your system. Mrs x I've clearly stated about 15 times across the various posts that the women boxers concerned ARE indeed women. I do not think they are trans. But the countries making the complaints ARE conflating them with transgender people and ARE publicly revelling in being anti-trans. You don't need me to tell you what Georgia Meloni, Victor Orban and Vladimir Putin stand for. And you don't need me to explain why athletes and/or coaches might feel under pressure to conform to the narrative that the Government of their nation subscribes to. My view is that both women are women, always have been and always will be and can compete as such in any sport. I've made that plain throughout. You keep blathering on about performance enhancing drugs, as if PEDs are relevant to this case. They are not. Neither athlete has been accused of doping and any comparison to athletes using PEDs is not only irrelevant but disingenuous. I'm going to add to this by saying that the relative IOC framework says clearly that there must be no presumed advantage. Advantage must be evidential. " Tonnes of scientific evidence about taking doses of testosterone provides an advantage. Common sense alone would suggest this, after all that's why it's a banned substance. Just Google it, you cannot avoid the positive performance effects it has on muscle development, power and strength. Mrs x | |||
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"Although she’s not a trans, she just has high testosterone levels, brilliant career to be in if you’re built like an outhouse!" She's one woman I WOULD climb over. | |||
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"The only countries to have raised vocal complaints are ones that are also vocally anti-trans and attempting to undo all the hard won rights afforded to women, trying to restore some kind of "traditional" male-centric testosterone-fest. Namely, Hungary, Italy and Russia. Please don't do this. She's not trans and it's horrible to suggest she is but it's OK for it to be a 'trans phobic issue for calls to ban her, because she has super high levels of a banned substance in her system normally. That's a bit below the belt. And why is it 'male centered', is it because it's testosterone? Woman produce testosterone naturally, female body builders take it to increase muscle mass and this particular boxer produces excessive amounts of it naturally. So it's not a male thing. It's also not a trans thing or a trans phobic thing, its not even a sex thing, the rules about this applies to guys too. It's just about going an advantage from the effects of having a banned substance in your system. Mrs x I've clearly stated about 15 times across the various posts that the women boxers concerned ARE indeed women. I do not think they are trans. But the countries making the complaints ARE conflating them with transgender people and ARE publicly revelling in being anti-trans. You don't need me to tell you what Georgia Meloni, Victor Orban and Vladimir Putin stand for. And you don't need me to explain why athletes and/or coaches might feel under pressure to conform to the narrative that the Government of their nation subscribes to. My view is that both women are women, always have been and always will be and can compete as such in any sport. I've made that plain throughout. You keep blathering on about performance enhancing drugs, as if PEDs are relevant to this case. They are not. Neither athlete has been accused of doping and any comparison to athletes using PEDs is not only irrelevant but disingenuous. I'm going to add to this by saying that the relative IOC framework says clearly that there must be no presumed advantage. Advantage must be evidential. Tonnes of scientific evidence about taking doses of testosterone provides an advantage. Common sense alone would suggest this, after all that's why it's a banned substance. Just Google it, you cannot avoid the positive performance effects it has on muscle development, power and strength. Mrs x" Again, since the eligibility criteria have been met, in the case of these competitors there must be no evidence of unfair advantage. | |||
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"The IOC has now responded to criticism of their eligibility criteria, saying testosterone is 'not a perfect test' and that all athletes competing 'comply with the competition's eligibility and entry regulations'. They added any 'current aggression' was a result of 'a sudden and arbitrary decision' to bar Khelif from the World Championships, made 'without due process'. "All athletes participating in the boxing tournament of the Olympic Games Paris 2024 comply with the competition’s eligibility and entry regulations, as well as all applicable medical regulations set by the Paris 2024 Boxing Unit (PBU)."" I'm not disputing that. She's a woman, she's competing in womans boxing, that's not a problem. The problem is is that they both have failed previous gender tests, having XY chromosomes and one boxer had way too much testosterone, at male levels. Both boxers recieved bans for this and interestingly neither appealed, even though it would only take a cheek swap and a small blood test to gain evidence against the claims made against them. She's not a cheat and we're it not for a drug test she probably would have been unaware she produced high levels of testosterone. But sadly for her she does. Only now, presumably by using testosterone blockers, she is in range but she has had the benefits of this for decades. Also the chromosome issue is in the background a little here because the IOC no longer use gender tests, think it was the late 90s. Their reasoning was that they didn't want repeats of the 'scenes' they had seen recently. Mrs x | |||
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"I personally think the Italian boxer was set up to "throw" the bout and to then espouse Meloni-esque stuff afterwards. She didn't appear to even try and partake in the bout. Either she's just not a very good boxer (possible) or she didn't try. It was like watching Eric the Eel swim against much better swimmers, except Eric kept on swimming in his own lane (that wasn't a level playing field either!) " Got to ask, why wasn't Eric's swim on a level playing field? Mrs x | |||
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"The IOC has now responded to criticism of their eligibility criteria, saying testosterone is 'not a perfect test' and that all athletes competing 'comply with the competition's eligibility and entry regulations'. They added any 'current aggression' was a result of 'a sudden and arbitrary decision' to bar Khelif from the World Championships, made 'without due process'. "All athletes participating in the boxing tournament of the Olympic Games Paris 2024 comply with the competition’s eligibility and entry regulations, as well as all applicable medical regulations set by the Paris 2024 Boxing Unit (PBU)."I'm not disputing that. She's a woman, she's competing in womans boxing, that's not a problem. The problem is is that they both have failed previous gender tests, having XY chromosomes and one boxer had way too much testosterone, at male levels. Both boxers recieved bans for this and interestingly neither appealed, even though it would only take a cheek swap and a small blood test to gain evidence against the claims made against them. She's not a cheat and we're it not for a drug test she probably would have been unaware she produced high levels of testosterone. But sadly for her she does. Only now, presumably by using testosterone blockers, she is in range but she has had the benefits of this for decades. Also the chromosome issue is in the background a little here because the IOC no longer use gender tests, think it was the late 90s. Their reasoning was that they didn't want repeats of the 'scenes' they had seen recently. Mrs x" What's the point in appealing? They were banned from one event and by the time the appeal had happened the event would be over. They obviously fit the eligibility criteria outside of that particular body. You're presuming something with zero evidence on the testosterone blockers. | |||
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"The IOC has now responded to criticism of their eligibility criteria, saying testosterone is 'not a perfect test' and that all athletes competing 'comply with the competition's eligibility and entry regulations'. They added any 'current aggression' was a result of 'a sudden and arbitrary decision' to bar Khelif from the World Championships, made 'without due process'. "All athletes participating in the boxing tournament of the Olympic Games Paris 2024 comply with the competition’s eligibility and entry regulations, as well as all applicable medical regulations set by the Paris 2024 Boxing Unit (PBU)."I'm not disputing that. She's a woman, she's competing in womans boxing, that's not a problem. The problem is is that they both have failed previous gender tests, having XY chromosomes and one boxer had way too much testosterone, at male levels. Both boxers recieved bans for this and interestingly neither appealed, even though it would only take a cheek swap and a small blood test to gain evidence against the claims made against them. She's not a cheat and we're it not for a drug test she probably would have been unaware she produced high levels of testosterone. But sadly for her she does. Only now, presumably by using testosterone blockers, she is in range but she has had the benefits of this for decades. Also the chromosome issue is in the background a little here because the IOC no longer use gender tests, think it was the late 90s. Their reasoning was that they didn't want repeats of the 'scenes' they had seen recently. Mrs x" "way too much testosterone" ? | |||
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"The only countries to have raised vocal complaints are ones that are also vocally anti-trans and attempting to undo all the hard won rights afforded to women, trying to restore some kind of "traditional" male-centric testosterone-fest. Namely, Hungary, Italy and Russia. Please don't do this. She's not trans and it's horrible to suggest she is but it's OK for it to be a 'trans phobic issue for calls to ban her, because she has super high levels of a banned substance in her system normally. That's a bit below the belt. And why is it 'male centered', is it because it's testosterone? Woman produce testosterone naturally, female body builders take it to increase muscle mass and this particular boxer produces excessive amounts of it naturally. So it's not a male thing. It's also not a trans thing or a trans phobic thing, its not even a sex thing, the rules about this applies to guys too. It's just about going an advantage from the effects of having a banned substance in your system. Mrs x I've clearly stated about 15 times across the various posts that the women boxers concerned ARE indeed women. I do not think they are trans. But the countries making the complaints ARE conflating them with transgender people and ARE publicly revelling in being anti-trans. You don't need me to tell you what Georgia Meloni, Victor Orban and Vladimir Putin stand for. And you don't need me to explain why athletes and/or coaches might feel under pressure to conform to the narrative that the Government of their nation subscribes to. My view is that both women are women, always have been and always will be and can compete as such in any sport. I've made that plain throughout. You keep blathering on about performance enhancing drugs, as if PEDs are relevant to this case. They are not. Neither athlete has been accused of doping and any comparison to athletes using PEDs is not only irrelevant but disingenuous. I'm going to add to this by saying that the relative IOC framework says clearly that there must be no presumed advantage. Advantage must be evidential. Tonnes of scientific evidence about taking doses of testosterone provides an advantage. Common sense alone would suggest this, after all that's why it's a banned substance. Just Google it, you cannot avoid the positive performance effects it has on muscle development, power and strength. Mrs x Again, since the eligibility criteria have been met, in the case of these competitors there must be no evidence of unfair advantage." So it's OK to know an athlete has, for want of a better phrase, being doping for decades, gained and kept those advantages, which if her competitors had done they would have recieved bans, but because for the last 2 months they have been good its fine? Bet Lance Armstrong is kicking himself now, he'd give his last nut to be able to compete under this criteria. Mrs x | |||
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" The problem is is that they both have failed previous gender tests, having XY chromosomes and one boxer had way too much testosterone, at male levels. Both boxers recieved bans for this and interestingly neither appealed, even though it would only take a cheek swap and a small blood test to gain evidence against the claims made against them. " Yes, barred from one tournament (by a discredited governing body), but have competed in women's boxing for years (with mixed success), including at the last Olympics. The more I know about this, the more I struggle with it. I wonder what super human won gold at the last Olympics - hope she's been tested for the inevitable doping necessary to overcome such odds. | |||
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"I personally think the Italian boxer was set up to "throw" the bout and to then espouse Meloni-esque stuff afterwards. She didn't appear to even try and partake in the bout. Either she's just not a very good boxer (possible) or she didn't try. It was like watching Eric the Eel swim against much better swimmers, except Eric kept on swimming in his own lane (that wasn't a level playing field either!) Got to ask, why wasn't Eric's swim on a level playing field? Mrs x" Because his country had no pool for him to train in, he trained in a crocodile infested river. He had no swimming goggles and borrowed a pair from another competitor. He did not benefit from the non-natural permitted tools that allow the margins of winning. | |||
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"The only countries to have raised vocal complaints are ones that are also vocally anti-trans and attempting to undo all the hard won rights afforded to women, trying to restore some kind of "traditional" male-centric testosterone-fest. Namely, Hungary, Italy and Russia. Please don't do this. She's not trans and it's horrible to suggest she is but it's OK for it to be a 'trans phobic issue for calls to ban her, because she has super high levels of a banned substance in her system normally. That's a bit below the belt. And why is it 'male centered', is it because it's testosterone? Woman produce testosterone naturally, female body builders take it to increase muscle mass and this particular boxer produces excessive amounts of it naturally. So it's not a male thing. It's also not a trans thing or a trans phobic thing, its not even a sex thing, the rules about this applies to guys too. It's just about going an advantage from the effects of having a banned substance in your system. Mrs x I've clearly stated about 15 times across the various posts that the women boxers concerned ARE indeed women. I do not think they are trans. But the countries making the complaints ARE conflating them with transgender people and ARE publicly revelling in being anti-trans. You don't need me to tell you what Georgia Meloni, Victor Orban and Vladimir Putin stand for. And you don't need me to explain why athletes and/or coaches might feel under pressure to conform to the narrative that the Government of their nation subscribes to. My view is that both women are women, always have been and always will be and can compete as such in any sport. I've made that plain throughout. You keep blathering on about performance enhancing drugs, as if PEDs are relevant to this case. They are not. Neither athlete has been accused of doping and any comparison to athletes using PEDs is not only irrelevant but disingenuous. I'm going to add to this by saying that the relative IOC framework says clearly that there must be no presumed advantage. Advantage must be evidential. Tonnes of scientific evidence about taking doses of testosterone provides an advantage. Common sense alone would suggest this, after all that's why it's a banned substance. Just Google it, you cannot avoid the positive performance effects it has on muscle development, power and strength. Mrs x Again, since the eligibility criteria have been met, in the case of these competitors there must be no evidence of unfair advantage.So it's OK to know an athlete has, for want of a better phrase, being doping for decades, gained and kept those advantages, which if her competitors had done they would have recieved bans, but because for the last 2 months they have been good its fine? Bet Lance Armstrong is kicking himself now, he'd give his last nut to be able to compete under this criteria. Mrs x" What has doping got to do with this story?? Disingenuous to even mention it! | |||
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"The only countries to have raised vocal complaints are ones that are also vocally anti-trans and attempting to undo all the hard won rights afforded to women, trying to restore some kind of "traditional" male-centric testosterone-fest. Namely, Hungary, Italy and Russia. Please don't do this. She's not trans and it's horrible to suggest she is but it's OK for it to be a 'trans phobic issue for calls to ban her, because she has super high levels of a banned substance in her system normally. That's a bit below the belt. And why is it 'male centered', is it because it's testosterone? Woman produce testosterone naturally, female body builders take it to increase muscle mass and this particular boxer produces excessive amounts of it naturally. So it's not a male thing. It's also not a trans thing or a trans phobic thing, its not even a sex thing, the rules about this applies to guys too. It's just about going an advantage from the effects of having a banned substance in your system. Mrs x I've clearly stated about 15 times across the various posts that the women boxers concerned ARE indeed women. I do not think they are trans. But the countries making the complaints ARE conflating them with transgender people and ARE publicly revelling in being anti-trans. You don't need me to tell you what Georgia Meloni, Victor Orban and Vladimir Putin stand for. And you don't need me to explain why athletes and/or coaches might feel under pressure to conform to the narrative that the Government of their nation subscribes to. My view is that both women are women, always have been and always will be and can compete as such in any sport. I've made that plain throughout. You keep blathering on about performance enhancing drugs, as if PEDs are relevant to this case. They are not. Neither athlete has been accused of doping and any comparison to athletes using PEDs is not only irrelevant but disingenuous. I'm going to add to this by saying that the relative IOC framework says clearly that there must be no presumed advantage. Advantage must be evidential. Tonnes of scientific evidence about taking doses of testosterone provides an advantage. Common sense alone would suggest this, after all that's why it's a banned substance. Just Google it, you cannot avoid the positive performance effects it has on muscle development, power and strength. Mrs x Again, since the eligibility criteria have been met, in the case of these competitors there must be no evidence of unfair advantage.So it's OK to know an athlete has, for want of a better phrase, being doping for decades, gained and kept those advantages, which if her competitors had done they would have recieved bans, but because for the last 2 months they have been good its fine? Bet Lance Armstrong is kicking himself now, he'd give his last nut to be able to compete under this criteria. Mrs x" You're presuming again in relation to these two competitors. In the case of Lance Armstrong there was a raft of evidence of his doping. You're comparing apples and pears | |||
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"People here commenting about banned substances. Check Alain Baxter who failed a drug test after using a nasal spray. This was because the one purchased in USA had banned substance in it . Compared to UK one. Lost his medal . " People commenting about banned substances are bringing in utterly irrelevant points. There is no suspicion of doping with the two boxers. | |||
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" The problem is is that they both have failed previous gender tests, having XY chromosomes and one boxer had way too much testosterone, at male levels. Both boxers recieved bans for this and interestingly neither appealed, even though it would only take a cheek swap and a small blood test to gain evidence against the claims made against them. Yes, barred from one tournament (by a discredited governing body), but have competed in women's boxing for years (with mixed success), including at the last Olympics. The more I know about this, the more I struggle with it. I wonder what super human won gold at the last Olympics - hope she's been tested for the inevitable doping necessary to overcome such odds." So instead at looking at the science you choose to go with emotive reasoning, in that the results cannot be trusted because the organisation that had them conducted. So the IOC too must be corrupt because they corroborated these results. Not sure if you'd agree but testosterone, at a certain proscribed level is a banned substance. The boxer had elevated testosterone above the allowed limit. This is the result from a lab test using scientific methods. Just because you say the IBA is corrupt you try to make out that the test shouldn't be believed. But the test was carried out in a lab. It was confirmed by the IOC. As for competing at previous Olympics I believe they do random testing so maybe they weren't selected. Also the gender tests they failed were abandoned by the IOC in about 1997 or thereabouts, so they wouldn't have been used regardless. These boxers both failed scientific testing, and didn't appeal. Now I'm not saying they had to but it's odd to dedicate your whole life to something and then allow it to be taken away if you knew you could prove your innocence with another scientific test involving a cheek swab or a blood test. Mrs x | |||
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"The only countries to have raised vocal complaints are ones that are also vocally anti-trans and attempting to undo all the hard won rights afforded to women, trying to restore some kind of "traditional" male-centric testosterone-fest. Namely, Hungary, Italy and Russia. Please don't do this. She's not trans and it's horrible to suggest she is but it's OK for it to be a 'trans phobic issue for calls to ban her, because she has super high levels of a banned substance in her system normally. That's a bit below the belt. And why is it 'male centered', is it because it's testosterone? Woman produce testosterone naturally, female body builders take it to increase muscle mass and this particular boxer produces excessive amounts of it naturally. So it's not a male thing. It's also not a trans thing or a trans phobic thing, its not even a sex thing, the rules about this applies to guys too. It's just about going an advantage from the effects of having a banned substance in your system. Mrs x I've clearly stated about 15 times across the various posts that the women boxers concerned ARE indeed women. I do not think they are trans. But the countries making the complaints ARE conflating them with transgender people and ARE publicly revelling in being anti-trans. You don't need me to tell you what Georgia Meloni, Victor Orban and Vladimir Putin stand for. And you don't need me to explain why athletes and/or coaches might feel under pressure to conform to the narrative that the Government of their nation subscribes to. My view is that both women are women, always have been and always will be and can compete as such in any sport. I've made that plain throughout. You keep blathering on about performance enhancing drugs, as if PEDs are relevant to this case. They are not. Neither athlete has been accused of doping and any comparison to athletes using PEDs is not only irrelevant but disingenuous. I'm going to add to this by saying that the relative IOC framework says clearly that there must be no presumed advantage. Advantage must be evidential. Tonnes of scientific evidence about taking doses of testosterone provides an advantage. Common sense alone would suggest this, after all that's why it's a banned substance. Just Google it, you cannot avoid the positive performance effects it has on muscle development, power and strength. Mrs x Again, since the eligibility criteria have been met, in the case of these competitors there must be no evidence of unfair advantage.So it's OK to know an athlete has, for want of a better phrase, being doping for decades, gained and kept those advantages, which if her competitors had done they would have recieved bans, but because for the last 2 months they have been good its fine? Bet Lance Armstrong is kicking himself now, he'd give his last nut to be able to compete under this criteria. Mrs x" Why, in your bizarre hypothetical scenario, would the other competitors be banned if they did the same as your pre games doped up athlete? Evie | |||
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" The problem is is that they both have failed previous gender tests, having XY chromosomes and one boxer had way too much testosterone, at male levels. Both boxers recieved bans for this and interestingly neither appealed, even though it would only take a cheek swap and a small blood test to gain evidence against the claims made against them. Yes, barred from one tournament (by a discredited governing body), but have competed in women's boxing for years (with mixed success), including at the last Olympics. The more I know about this, the more I struggle with it. I wonder what super human won gold at the last Olympics - hope she's been tested for the inevitable doping necessary to overcome such odds.So instead at looking at the science you choose to go with emotive reasoning, in that the results cannot be trusted because the organisation that had them conducted. So the IOC too must be corrupt because they corroborated these results. Not sure if you'd agree but testosterone, at a certain proscribed level is a banned substance. The boxer had elevated testosterone above the allowed limit. This is the result from a lab test using scientific methods. Just because you say the IBA is corrupt you try to make out that the test shouldn't be believed. But the test was carried out in a lab. It was confirmed by the IOC. As for competing at previous Olympics I believe they do random testing so maybe they weren't selected. Also the gender tests they failed were abandoned by the IOC in about 1997 or thereabouts, so they wouldn't have been used regardless. These boxers both failed scientific testing, and didn't appeal. Now I'm not saying they had to but it's odd to dedicate your whole life to something and then allow it to be taken away if you knew you could prove your innocence with another scientific test involving a cheek swab or a blood test. Mrs x " There has not, to my knowledge, been any confirmation that they failed a testosterone test, just a gender reaffirming test. Happy to be proven wrong if anyone can share the link. Evie | |||
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" The problem is is that they both have failed previous gender tests, having XY chromosomes and one boxer had way too much testosterone, at male levels. Both boxers recieved bans for this and interestingly neither appealed, even though it would only take a cheek swap and a small blood test to gain evidence against the claims made against them. Yes, barred from one tournament (by a discredited governing body), but have competed in women's boxing for years (with mixed success), including at the last Olympics. The more I know about this, the more I struggle with it. I wonder what super human won gold at the last Olympics - hope she's been tested for the inevitable doping necessary to overcome such odds.So instead at looking at the science you choose to go with emotive reasoning, in that the results cannot be trusted because the organisation that had them conducted. So the IOC too must be corrupt because they corroborated these results. Not sure if you'd agree but testosterone, at a certain proscribed level is a banned substance. The boxer had elevated testosterone above the allowed limit. This is the result from a lab test using scientific methods. Just because you say the IBA is corrupt you try to make out that the test shouldn't be believed. But the test was carried out in a lab. It was confirmed by the IOC. As for competing at previous Olympics I believe they do random testing so maybe they weren't selected. Also the gender tests they failed were abandoned by the IOC in about 1997 or thereabouts, so they wouldn't have been used regardless. These boxers both failed scientific testing, and didn't appeal. Now I'm not saying they had to but it's odd to dedicate your whole life to something and then allow it to be taken away if you knew you could prove your innocence with another scientific test involving a cheek swab or a blood test. Mrs x " I'm looking at the evidence. The evidence is that they've been competing for years without anyone batting an eyelid, until last year. We have a different interpretation of the evidence in front of us, which is fine. I have no idea if the sanctioned the IBA test last year (I doubt it as it wasn't an IOC event, but I don't know), but they're certainly not vouching for it now, saying it was an "arbitrary decision, which was taken without any proper procedure"... | |||
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"What a world we live in Been on Facebook and people are mad about this woman My opinion is...got nothing to do with me,my life stays the same so sorry I dont care" And yet... Here's the thread. | |||
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"Perhaps what's needed is a way to identify the difference banned substances and naturally occurring hormones " There is already | |||
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"People here commenting about banned substances. Check Alain Baxter who failed a drug test after using a nasal spray. This was because the one purchased in USA had banned substance in it . Compared to UK one. Lost his medal . People commenting about banned substances are bringing in utterly irrelevant points. There is no suspicion of doping with the two boxers. " Having a banned substance in your body is based upon scientific testing. Levels are proscribed to each substance that is banned, above which an athlete will fail the test. There are lots of these substances, one of which is testosterone. The principle is the same that's applied for breathalyser tests when driving. You can have a certain amount of alcohol in your system but too much, going over the limit, and your looking at a ban. Does matter how you got that level of alcohol in your system, if you fail the breathalyser your guilty. It's the same here. So above the limit, in this case for testosterone, and you are guilty. It doesn't matter whether it's in your system naturally or whether you've doped. If it's there, above the limit, you're guilty. It's very simple, or at least it should be. Mrs x | |||
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"Perhaps what's needed is a way to identify the difference banned substances and naturally occurring hormones " This is exactly how drug testing works | |||
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"Khelif was one of two athletes who did not meet the gender eligibility criteria for the 2023 World Boxing Championships in New Delhi, with the other being Taiwan's Lin Yu-ting. While there have been suggestions that Khelif had elevated testosterone levels, the International Boxing Association (IBA) clarified on Wednesday that it was a "separate and recognized test" that resulted in her disqualification" | |||
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" The problem is is that they both have failed previous gender tests, having XY chromosomes and one boxer had way too much testosterone, at male levels. Both boxers recieved bans for this and interestingly neither appealed, even though it would only take a cheek swap and a small blood test to gain evidence against the claims made against them. Yes, barred from one tournament (by a discredited governing body), but have competed in women's boxing for years (with mixed success), including at the last Olympics. The more I know about this, the more I struggle with it. I wonder what super human won gold at the last Olympics - hope she's been tested for the inevitable doping necessary to overcome such odds.So instead at looking at the science you choose to go with emotive reasoning, in that the results cannot be trusted because the organisation that had them conducted. So the IOC too must be corrupt because they corroborated these results. Not sure if you'd agree but testosterone, at a certain proscribed level is a banned substance. The boxer had elevated testosterone above the allowed limit. This is the result from a lab test using scientific methods. Just because you say the IBA is corrupt you try to make out that the test shouldn't be believed. But the test was carried out in a lab. It was confirmed by the IOC. As for competing at previous Olympics I believe they do random testing so maybe they weren't selected. Also the gender tests they failed were abandoned by the IOC in about 1997 or thereabouts, so they wouldn't have been used regardless. These boxers both failed scientific testing, and didn't appeal. Now I'm not saying they had to but it's odd to dedicate your whole life to something and then allow it to be taken away if you knew you could prove your innocence with another scientific test involving a cheek swab or a blood test. Mrs x There has not, to my knowledge, been any confirmation that they failed a testosterone test, just a gender reaffirming test. Happy to be proven wrong if anyone can share the link. Evie " Even the IBA don't claim they failed a testosterone test, so I've no idea where has come from. But I might have missed it too and, like you, happy to be proven wrong. | |||
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"Perhaps what's needed is a way to identify the difference banned substances and naturally occurring hormones There is already "Oh right, so then ban those who dope and those who naturally produce it let 'em crack on! | |||
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" The problem is is that they both have failed previous gender tests, having XY chromosomes and one boxer had way too much testosterone, at male levels. Both boxers recieved bans for this and interestingly neither appealed, even though it would only take a cheek swap and a small blood test to gain evidence against the claims made against them. Yes, barred from one tournament (by a discredited governing body), but have competed in women's boxing for years (with mixed success), including at the last Olympics. The more I know about this, the more I struggle with it. I wonder what super human won gold at the last Olympics - hope she's been tested for the inevitable doping necessary to overcome such odds.So instead at looking at the science you choose to go with emotive reasoning, in that the results cannot be trusted because the organisation that had them conducted. So the IOC too must be corrupt because they corroborated these results. Not sure if you'd agree but testosterone, at a certain proscribed level is a banned substance. The boxer had elevated testosterone above the allowed limit. This is the result from a lab test using scientific methods. Just because you say the IBA is corrupt you try to make out that the test shouldn't be believed. But the test was carried out in a lab. It was confirmed by the IOC. As for competing at previous Olympics I believe they do random testing so maybe they weren't selected. Also the gender tests they failed were abandoned by the IOC in about 1997 or thereabouts, so they wouldn't have been used regardless. These boxers both failed scientific testing, and didn't appeal. Now I'm not saying they had to but it's odd to dedicate your whole life to something and then allow it to be taken away if you knew you could prove your innocence with another scientific test involving a cheek swab or a blood test. Mrs x There has not, to my knowledge, been any confirmation that they failed a testosterone test, just a gender reaffirming test. Happy to be proven wrong if anyone can share the link. Evie Even the IBA don't claim they failed a testosterone test, so I've no idea where has come from. But I might have missed it too and, like you, happy to be proven wrong." Quoted from The Guardian, "However the IOC’s own MyInfo website acknowledges that both boxers failed gender eligibility tests last year. In its internal system, which is provided to journalists in Paris, the IOC states that Khelif was “disqualified just hours before her gold medal showdown against Yang Liu at the 2023 world championships in New Delhi, India, after her elevated levels of testosterone failed to meet the eligibility criteria”. The IOC also acknowledges that Lin was “stripped of her bronze medal after failing to meet eligibility requirements based on the results of a biochemical test." This was in the press pack for the release relating to their bans. Mrs x | |||
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"Perhaps what's needed is a way to identify the difference banned substances and naturally occurring hormones There is already
Oh right, so then ban those who dope and those who naturally produce it let 'em crack on!
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" The problem is is that they both have failed previous gender tests, having XY chromosomes and one boxer had way too much testosterone, at male levels. Both boxers recieved bans for this and interestingly neither appealed, even though it would only take a cheek swap and a small blood test to gain evidence against the claims made against them. Yes, barred from one tournament (by a discredited governing body), but have competed in women's boxing for years (with mixed success), including at the last Olympics. The more I know about this, the more I struggle with it. I wonder what super human won gold at the last Olympics - hope she's been tested for the inevitable doping necessary to overcome such odds.So instead at looking at the science you choose to go with emotive reasoning, in that the results cannot be trusted because the organisation that had them conducted. So the IOC too must be corrupt because they corroborated these results. Not sure if you'd agree but testosterone, at a certain proscribed level is a banned substance. The boxer had elevated testosterone above the allowed limit. This is the result from a lab test using scientific methods. Just because you say the IBA is corrupt you try to make out that the test shouldn't be believed. But the test was carried out in a lab. It was confirmed by the IOC. As for competing at previous Olympics I believe they do random testing so maybe they weren't selected. Also the gender tests they failed were abandoned by the IOC in about 1997 or thereabouts, so they wouldn't have been used regardless. These boxers both failed scientific testing, and didn't appeal. Now I'm not saying they had to but it's odd to dedicate your whole life to something and then allow it to be taken away if you knew you could prove your innocence with another scientific test involving a cheek swab or a blood test. Mrs x There has not, to my knowledge, been any confirmation that they failed a testosterone test, just a gender reaffirming test. Happy to be proven wrong if anyone can share the link. Evie Even the IBA don't claim they failed a testosterone test, so I've no idea where has come from. But I might have missed it too and, like you, happy to be proven wrong.Quoted from The Guardian, "However the IOC’s own MyInfo website acknowledges that both boxers failed gender eligibility tests last year. In its internal system, which is provided to journalists in Paris, the IOC states that Khelif was “disqualified just hours before her gold medal showdown against Yang Liu at the 2023 world championships in New Delhi, India, after her elevated levels of testosterone failed to meet the eligibility criteria”. The IOC also acknowledges that Lin was “stripped of her bronze medal after failing to meet eligibility requirements based on the results of a biochemical test." This was in the press pack for the release relating to their bans. Mrs x" You do understand though that all this means is that they acknowledge those tests took place and the outcomes? They're not corroborating or confirming the results. | |||
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"The only countries to have raised vocal complaints are ones that are also vocally anti-trans and attempting to undo all the hard won rights afforded to women, trying to restore some kind of "traditional" male-centric testosterone-fest. Namely, Hungary, Italy and Russia. Please don't do this. She's not trans and it's horrible to suggest she is but it's OK for it to be a 'trans phobic issue for calls to ban her, because she has super high levels of a banned substance in her system normally. That's a bit below the belt. And why is it 'male centered', is it because it's testosterone? Woman produce testosterone naturally, female body builders take it to increase muscle mass and this particular boxer produces excessive amounts of it naturally. So it's not a male thing. It's also not a trans thing or a trans phobic thing, its not even a sex thing, the rules about this applies to guys too. It's just about going an advantage from the effects of having a banned substance in your system. Mrs x I've clearly stated about 15 times across the various posts that the women boxers concerned ARE indeed women. I do not think they are trans. But the countries making the complaints ARE conflating them with transgender people and ARE publicly revelling in being anti-trans. You don't need me to tell you what Georgia Meloni, Victor Orban and Vladimir Putin stand for. And you don't need me to explain why athletes and/or coaches might feel under pressure to conform to the narrative that the Government of their nation subscribes to. My view is that both women are women, always have been and always will be and can compete as such in any sport. I've made that plain throughout. You keep blathering on about performance enhancing drugs, as if PEDs are relevant to this case. They are not. Neither athlete has been accused of doping and any comparison to athletes using PEDs is not only irrelevant but disingenuous. I'm going to add to this by saying that the relative IOC framework says clearly that there must be no presumed advantage. Advantage must be evidential. Tonnes of scientific evidence about taking doses of testosterone provides an advantage. Common sense alone would suggest this, after all that's why it's a banned substance. Just Google it, you cannot avoid the positive performance effects it has on muscle development, power and strength. Mrs x Again, since the eligibility criteria have been met, in the case of these competitors there must be no evidence of unfair advantage.So it's OK to know an athlete has, for want of a better phrase, being doping for decades, gained and kept those advantages, which if her competitors had done they would have recieved bans, but because for the last 2 months they have been good its fine? Bet Lance Armstrong is kicking himself now, he'd give his last nut to be able to compete under this criteria. Mrs x Why, in your bizarre hypothetical scenario, would the other competitors be banned if they did the same as your pre games doped up athlete? Evie" If they chose to raise their testosterone levels to match the boxer who produces testosterone naturally. The only way to achieve this would be to dope themselves and risk a ban. Mrs x | |||
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"'If someone that has benefitted from male levels of testosterone punches someone that has lived with female levels of testosterone in the face they could break bones and cause brain damage" The same could happen if ANYONE punches someone else in the face, no?" Males punch much harder than females. Taking testosterone at the same level as a male, to gain the power and strength of a man means that they can punch significantly harder than their competitors. Mrs x | |||
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"Elevated levels of testosterone (male levels) increase bone density and strength and also impact on the fibers of the brain. If someone that has benefitted from male levels of testosterone punches someone that has lived with female levels of testosterone in the face they could break bones and cause brain damage. Male levels of testosterone are not slightly more than female levels they can be many, many times multiplied (it's not a small gap). It is extremely dangerous to put the other boxer in a ring with someone who has a massive genetic advantage (regardless of skill). The welfare of the athletes that were not born with this condition is not being sufficiently protected. This is a governance issue. " Well put, Mrs x | |||
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"'If someone that has benefitted from male levels of testosterone punches someone that has lived with female levels of testosterone in the face they could break bones and cause brain damage" The same could happen if ANYONE punches someone else in the face, no?Males punch much harder than females. Taking testosterone at the same level as a male, to gain the power and strength of a man means that they can punch significantly harder than their competitors. Mrs x" Yeah but safety in women's sport doesn't count. | |||
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"'If someone that has benefitted from male levels of testosterone punches someone that has lived with female levels of testosterone in the face they could break bones and cause brain damage" The same could happen if ANYONE punches someone else in the face, no?Males punch much harder than females. Taking testosterone at the same level as a male, to gain the power and strength of a man means that they can punch significantly harder than their competitors. Mrs x" Most men may punch harder than most women. I would assume any woman capable of competing at an Olympic level could easily beat the life out of 95% of men. | |||
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"'If someone that has benefitted from male levels of testosterone punches someone that has lived with female levels of testosterone in the face they could break bones and cause brain damage" The same could happen if ANYONE punches someone else in the face, no?" Yes it could, but if you have male levels of testosterone your punch will be much, much, more lethal. The risk for the opponent is too high, in my opinion. This is why women don't fight men, this should be why women don't fight other women who have (due to no fault if their own) lived with male levels of testosterone. I think the governing bodies need to reassess this, particularly for contact sports, where there is mora than just medals at risk. | |||
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"'If someone that has benefitted from male levels of testosterone punches someone that has lived with female levels of testosterone in the face they could break bones and cause brain damage" The same could happen if ANYONE punches someone else in the face, no?Males punch much harder than females. Taking testosterone at the same level as a male, to gain the power and strength of a man means that they can punch significantly harder than their competitors. Mrs x" Assuming everything is equal between two people punching each other in the face, could one break bones and cause brain damage in the other? I'll give you a clue. The answer is yes. | |||
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