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"My view is also simple You (or I) don't get to decide someone elses gender for them" What level of granularity is sensible? What if I wanted to identify not as a man but a aspergersblueeyesasexual? I could get my head around male, female, trans and non binary but the number of different genders are growing and I don't want to learn them all. Is summarising into a handful of categories acceptable? | |||
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"I feel its a bit like if i wanted to learn how to speak French then expecting everyone else to do the same so they could understand me " You summarised my sentiments in much fewer words. Well done. | |||
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"I feel its a bit like if i wanted to learn how to speak French then expecting everyone else to do the same so they could understand me " Love it  | |||
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"I think it’s fair to say that it’s valid anytime you want to make a distinct between someone who’s trans or not. I.e. if you feel the need to say someone’s a trans woman or trans man, it’s equally valid to say someone a cis man or woman. But if if not pertinent to clarify that someone’s Cis, it’s equally irrelevant to say that they’re a trans woman or man. What’s good for the goose etc etc " It is relevant in some cases, for instance. If you were going on a date, I think you should tell someone if you're trans if you couldn't reasonably expect to know IF you were going to get down to it. I think someone in that situation has he right to know. But agree that in most situations it isn't relevant. | |||
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"My view is also simple You (or I) don't get to decide someone elses gender for them" Brilliantly put. | |||
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"Do all people with Asperger's or ASD think the same as you? If the answer is no, then you have the answer to your original question. Everyone is different. Including people who are, according to societal norms, "different". For example, I am a wheelchair user, a minority. But my need and adaptations are completely different to my friend J, who is also a wheelchair user. " I think needs and Adaptions of someone in a wheelchair is very different because they are absolutely necessary. The equivalent would be to expect everyone to ride in a wheelchair to make you feel better. PS I'm sorry that sounds so crass, I didn't mean it to and I expect you want to reply and challenge it | |||
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"Yes it's necessary. It's respectful to try and understand someone's identity and use it. You have your Aspie identity OP, others are defined as Normie. If people have words to articulate their identity, so they feel comfortable in their skins. That can only be good for their emotional wellbeing. Live and let live. "I not her heard the term aspie before. I don't know why but I kind of like that. | |||
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"I meet people where they are, when I’m with them. I don’t pretend to understand every new permutation on gender identity, or to personally care much about what it means. But I’ll respect how that individual identifies so long as I need to be conscious of it. This keeps things very simple. " I work with a they them. I sometimes miss gender but do try. They actually fine about it. Maybe because we have a rapour from our live if F1. If they got really shitty about it I'd feel a bit resentful though as I make an effort because I like them, even though I think it's silly. | |||
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"Do all people with Asperger's or ASD think the same as you? If the answer is no, then you have the answer to your original question. Everyone is different. Including people who are, according to societal norms, "different". For example, I am a wheelchair user, a minority. But my need and adaptations are completely different to my friend J, who is also a wheelchair user. I think needs and Adaptions of someone in a wheelchair is very different because they are absolutely necessary. The equivalent would be to expect everyone to ride in a wheelchair to make you feel better. PS I'm sorry that sounds so crass, I didn't mean it to and I expect you want to reply and challenge it " You know what? I really can't be arsed to challenge it at the moment. I'm sat next to my husband, who is autistic. He doesn't think in the same way as you about the topic you started the thread about. I don't feel I can write in a specific enough way to make my intentions crystal clear right now, so I'll bid you adieu, Auf Wiedersehen and goodbye for tonight. | |||
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"Do all people with Asperger's or ASD think the same as you? If the answer is no, then you have the answer to your original question. Everyone is different. Including people who are, according to societal norms, "different". For example, I am a wheelchair user, a minority. But my need and adaptations are completely different to my friend J, who is also a wheelchair user. I think needs and Adaptions of someone in a wheelchair is very different because they are absolutely necessary. The equivalent would be to expect everyone to ride in a wheelchair to make you feel better. PS I'm sorry that sounds so crass, I didn't mean it to and I expect you want to reply and challenge it You know what? I really can't be arsed to challenge it at the moment. I'm sat next to my husband, who is autistic. He doesn't think in the same way as you about the topic you started the thread about. I don't feel I can write in a specific enough way to make my intentions crystal clear right now, so I'll bid you adieu, Auf Wiedersehen and goodbye for tonight. " Thanks for chatting anyway. You articulated your view pretty well, I think it is more my issue that I don't understand all of it. Hope you have a good night. | |||
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"I think you've expressed your view with a degree of consideration. Although I do disagree that it's stupid and it's inefficiency is quite contextual. Fundamentally, I would argue it's very efficient it is 3 letter a prefix, which in this context means: I identify with the gender assigned at birth. That makes sense, as some people do not identify with the gender they were assigned at birth. Is it always necessary perhaps not, but if it promotes awareness then that's probably a positive in the long-term. The same could be said of Neurodiversity. My understanding is that Asperger's is no longer a term that's utilised, and it's thought of as high functioning ASD. That's probably a simplistic understanding, but then that furthers the cause of awareness raising. Society ought to consider the needs and inclusion of minorities. I think that's a positive measure of a society. One that's willing to share power, as a moral virtue." A lot of people actually choose to use Asperger's or Aspie because they don't like the most recent habit of having just one "label", which is "autistic spectrum disorder". There is no longer any reference to "functioning" because of the subjective and frankly ableist idea of it. Asperger's was retired as a label mainly due to the history of Hans Asperger but lots of Aspies actually seem to prefer it. A lot of "high functioning" autistic people also like to differentiate themselves from the presumably "low functioning" autistic people. One can speculate why this is so. But this is not the place. I accept whatever "label" the autistic person uses for themselves and use that, because they've chosen it. A bit like "choosing" your gender pronouns. | |||
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"Don't get offended, " Don't tell me what to do! | |||
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"I think you've expressed your view with a degree of consideration. Although I do disagree that it's stupid and it's inefficiency is quite contextual. Fundamentally, I would argue it's very efficient it is 3 letter a prefix, which in this context means: I identify with the gender assigned at birth. That makes sense, as some people do not identify with the gender they were assigned at birth. Is it always necessary perhaps not, but if it promotes awareness then that's probably a positive in the long-term. The same could be said of Neurodiversity. My understanding is that Asperger's is no longer a term that's utilised, and it's thought of as high functioning ASD. That's probably a simplistic understanding, but then that furthers the cause of awareness raising. Society ought to consider the needs and inclusion of minorities. I think that's a positive measure of a society. One that's willing to share power, as a moral virtue." I'll row back slightly on stupid. You and others have made me concede that it isn't stupid even if I choose not to use it. I didn't know Asperger's wasn't the normal term any more. When people call it ass burgers I find it pretty funny. Obviously I would feel differently if someone I knew and cared about made a joke with a specific intention to upset me. When I see people make reel videos taking the Mick out of Autism I find it hilarious especially if they're really ignorant. But I never felt like I've experienced real discrimination when it comes to work and it isn't visible so maybe that's why I aren't sensitive about it. | |||
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"I think you've expressed your view with a degree of consideration. Although I do disagree that it's stupid and it's inefficiency is quite contextual. Fundamentally, I would argue it's very efficient it is 3 letter a prefix, which in this context means: I identify with the gender assigned at birth. That makes sense, as some people do not identify with the gender they were assigned at birth. Is it always necessary perhaps not, but if it promotes awareness then that's probably a positive in the long-term. The same could be said of Neurodiversity. My understanding is that Asperger's is no longer a term that's utilised, and it's thought of as high functioning ASD. That's probably a simplistic understanding, but then that furthers the cause of awareness raising. Society ought to consider the needs and inclusion of minorities. I think that's a positive measure of a society. One that's willing to share power, as a moral virtue. A lot of people actually choose to use Asperger's or Aspie because they don't like the most recent habit of having just one "label", which is "autistic spectrum disorder". There is no longer any reference to "functioning" because of the subjective and frankly ableist idea of it. Asperger's was retired as a label mainly due to the history of Hans Asperger but lots of Aspies actually seem to prefer it. A lot of "high functioning" autistic people also like to differentiate themselves from the presumably "low functioning" autistic people. One can speculate why this is so. But this is not the place. I accept whatever "label" the autistic person uses for themselves and use that, because they've chosen it. A bit like "choosing" your gender pronouns. " To me high or low functioning doesn't seem to make sense because generally people don't walk around advertising their IQ. Never knew I had Asperger's till later in life so never felt the need to stipulate whether I was high or low functioning because I didn't realise. | |||
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"I think you've expressed your view with a degree of consideration. Although I do disagree that it's stupid and it's inefficiency is quite contextual. Fundamentally, I would argue it's very efficient it is 3 letter a prefix, which in this context means: I identify with the gender assigned at birth. That makes sense, as some people do not identify with the gender they were assigned at birth. Is it always necessary perhaps not, but if it promotes awareness then that's probably a positive in the long-term. The same could be said of Neurodiversity. My understanding is that Asperger's is no longer a term that's utilised, and it's thought of as high functioning ASD. That's probably a simplistic understanding, but then that furthers the cause of awareness raising. Society ought to consider the needs and inclusion of minorities. I think that's a positive measure of a society. One that's willing to share power, as a moral virtue. A lot of people actually choose to use Asperger's or Aspie because they don't like the most recent habit of having just one "label", which is "autistic spectrum disorder". There is no longer any reference to "functioning" because of the subjective and frankly ableist idea of it. Asperger's was retired as a label mainly due to the history of Hans Asperger but lots of Aspies actually seem to prefer it. A lot of "high functioning" autistic people also like to differentiate themselves from the presumably "low functioning" autistic people. One can speculate why this is so. But this is not the place. I accept whatever "label" the autistic person uses for themselves and use that, because they've chosen it. A bit like "choosing" your gender pronouns. To me high or low functioning doesn't seem to make sense because generally people don't walk around advertising their IQ. Never knew I had Asperger's till later in life so never felt the need to stipulate whether I was high or low functioning because I didn't realise." The "functioning" label wasn't just about IQ. High/low functioning were accepted and standard diagnostic parlance among adults and children diagnosed with ASD until very recently. Mr KC was diagnosed as an adult, just as it was changing officially. That was about 10yrs ago. | |||
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"I have a few views on this. People on the ASD spectrum view things differently from neuronormative people. One of those is to see things in distinct categories or to take things literally. Cis is a valid term, especially for allies of non binary and trans community. This leads me on to misgendering, which I appreciate isn't directly under discussion, but is inexorably linked. If people were able to complete forms and tick a cis category, how much simpler? If people tick a non cis or choose not to answer, you can be mindful of how they wish to be gendered, and use they/them and other terms in use. Another topic, deadnaming. I completely understand this. My elder has changed her name legally. She doesn't want to be known by her former name. Not a trans change of name, but very traumatic nonetheless. So I can understand misgendering is as undermining and hurtful as deadnaming. I would like to see more tolerance and understanding towards both ND and LGBTQ+ and those that are in both communities. " What's "dead naming?" Is it deliberately referring to someone by their defunct name? If so that's bloody rude. X | |||
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"I have a few views on this. People on the ASD spectrum view things differently from neuronormative people. One of those is to see things in distinct categories or to take things literally. Cis is a valid term, especially for allies of non binary and trans community. This leads me on to misgendering, which I appreciate isn't directly under discussion, but is inexorably linked. If people were able to complete forms and tick a cis category, how much simpler? If people tick a non cis or choose not to answer, you can be mindful of how they wish to be gendered, and use they/them and other terms in use. Another topic, deadnaming. I completely understand this. My elder has changed her name legally. She doesn't want to be known by her former name. Not a trans change of name, but very traumatic nonetheless. So I can understand misgendering is as undermining and hurtful as deadnaming. I would like to see more tolerance and understanding towards both ND and LGBTQ+ and those that are in both communities. What's "dead naming?" Is it deliberately referring to someone by their defunct name? If so that's bloody rude. X" Yes it’s deliberately using the defunct name. | |||
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"I have a few views on this. People on the ASD spectrum view things differently from neuronormative people. One of those is to see things in distinct categories or to take things literally. Cis is a valid term, especially for allies of non binary and trans community. This leads me on to misgendering, which I appreciate isn't directly under discussion, but is inexorably linked. If people were able to complete forms and tick a cis category, how much simpler? If people tick a non cis or choose not to answer, you can be mindful of how they wish to be gendered, and use they/them and other terms in use. Another topic, deadnaming. I completely understand this. My elder has changed her name legally. She doesn't want to be known by her former name. Not a trans change of name, but very traumatic nonetheless. So I can understand misgendering is as undermining and hurtful as deadnaming. I would like to see more tolerance and understanding towards both ND and LGBTQ+ and those that are in both communities. " Yeah with regards to your last point I agree. We are all human beings if people could respect each other and discuss in good faith, some of the contentious subjects wouldn't be so dividing. | |||
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"I think it is superfluous and not required. I am a woman. This means I identify as a woman and have done so since birth. Adding the prefix Cis does nothing to alter this. A Trans woman has had to go through a transition to get to this part of her life story. The prefix Trans describes her current situation and as such is and apt description of how they identify. They identify as a woman and have transitioned to achieve this. But in my case the term woman or the term Cis woman mean the same thing apparently. So this would indicate that a prefix is not required and Cis is redundant on the basis of this. I am a woman, not Cis anything. Mrs x" Totally agree and well said. But I'm now singing "I am Woman" by Helen Reddy | |||
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"I have a few views on this. People on the ASD spectrum view things differently from neuronormative people. One of those is to see things in distinct categories or to take things literally. Cis is a valid term, especially for allies of non binary and trans community. This leads me on to misgendering, which I appreciate isn't directly under discussion, but is inexorably linked. If people were able to complete forms and tick a cis category, how much simpler? If people tick a non cis or choose not to answer, you can be mindful of how they wish to be gendered, and use they/them and other terms in use. Another topic, deadnaming. I completely understand this. My elder has changed her name legally. She doesn't want to be known by her former name. Not a trans change of name, but very traumatic nonetheless. So I can understand misgendering is as undermining and hurtful as deadnaming. I would like to see more tolerance and understanding towards both ND and LGBTQ+ and those that are in both communities. What's "dead naming?" Is it deliberately referring to someone by their defunct name? If so that's bloody rude. X Yes it’s deliberately using the defunct name. " | |||
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"I have a few views on this. People on the ASD spectrum view things differently from neuronormative people. One of those is to see things in distinct categories or to take things literally. Cis is a valid term, especially for allies of non binary and trans community. This leads me on to misgendering, which I appreciate isn't directly under discussion, but is inexorably linked. If people were able to complete forms and tick a cis category, how much simpler? If people tick a non cis or choose not to answer, you can be mindful of how they wish to be gendered, and use they/them and other terms in use. Another topic, deadnaming. I completely understand this. My elder has changed her name legally. She doesn't want to be known by her former name. Not a trans change of name, but very traumatic nonetheless. So I can understand misgendering is as undermining and hurtful as deadnaming. I would like to see more tolerance and understanding towards both ND and LGBTQ+ and those that are in both communities. What's "dead naming?" Is it deliberately referring to someone by their defunct name? If so that's bloody rude. X" That's it exactly, Red. For a trans person, using their birth name rather than the one they have chosen. In my daughter's case, she changed her surname to disassociate herself from her father. She refuses to acknowledge her former surname to anyone she meets nos, and fortunately we had it changed at 16 years of age, so in essence she has a new identity with which she is comfortable. | |||
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"I have a few views on this. People on the ASD spectrum view things differently from neuronormative people. One of those is to see things in distinct categories or to take things literally. Cis is a valid term, especially for allies of non binary and trans community. This leads me on to misgendering, which I appreciate isn't directly under discussion, but is inexorably linked. If people were able to complete forms and tick a cis category, how much simpler? If people tick a non cis or choose not to answer, you can be mindful of how they wish to be gendered, and use they/them and other terms in use. Another topic, deadnaming. I completely understand this. My elder has changed her name legally. She doesn't want to be known by her former name. Not a trans change of name, but very traumatic nonetheless. So I can understand misgendering is as undermining and hurtful as deadnaming. I would like to see more tolerance and understanding towards both ND and LGBTQ+ and those that are in both communities. What's "dead naming?" Is it deliberately referring to someone by their defunct name? If so that's bloody rude. X That's it exactly, Red. For a trans person, using their birth name rather than the one they have chosen. In my daughter's case, she changed her surname to disassociate herself from her father. She refuses to acknowledge her former surname to anyone she meets nos, and fortunately we had it changed at 16 years of age, so in essence she has a new identity with which she is comfortable. "Good for her and glad you support her in that.
In my job, I see a lot of name changes, I imagine for the same reason. X | |||
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"I have a few views on this. People on the ASD spectrum view things differently from neuronormative people. One of those is to see things in distinct categories or to take things literally. Cis is a valid term, especially for allies of non binary and trans community. This leads me on to misgendering, which I appreciate isn't directly under discussion, but is inexorably linked. If people were able to complete forms and tick a cis category, how much simpler? If people tick a non cis or choose not to answer, you can be mindful of how they wish to be gendered, and use they/them and other terms in use. Another topic, deadnaming. I completely understand this. My elder has changed her name legally. She doesn't want to be known by her former name. Not a trans change of name, but very traumatic nonetheless. So I can understand misgendering is as undermining and hurtful as deadnaming. I would like to see more tolerance and understanding towards both ND and LGBTQ+ and those that are in both communities. What's "dead naming?" Is it deliberately referring to someone by their defunct name? If so that's bloody rude. X Yes it’s deliberately using the defunct name. " That would be cruel. I'd feel a bit shitty if I deliberately did that. I'm pleased the word is "deliberately" because I think intentions are more important than the words. | |||
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"I have a few views on this. People on the ASD spectrum view things differently from neuronormative people. One of those is to see things in distinct categories or to take things literally. Cis is a valid term, especially for allies of non binary and trans community. This leads me on to misgendering, which I appreciate isn't directly under discussion, but is inexorably linked. If people were able to complete forms and tick a cis category, how much simpler? If people tick a non cis or choose not to answer, you can be mindful of how they wish to be gendered, and use they/them and other terms in use. Another topic, deadnaming. I completely understand this. My elder has changed her name legally. She doesn't want to be known by her former name. Not a trans change of name, but very traumatic nonetheless. So I can understand misgendering is as undermining and hurtful as deadnaming. I would like to see more tolerance and understanding towards both ND and LGBTQ+ and those that are in both communities. Yeah with regards to your last point I agree. We are all human beings if people could respect each other and discuss in good faith, some of the contentious subjects wouldn't be so dividing. " Forgot to mention, elder is autistic, younger probably also on the spectrum, more likely ADD. | |||
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"OP, I can see that you don't mean to offend, but you may have worded it clumsily. But then, however this is addressed seems to cause offence these days. I will happily refer to someone by their chosen name/pronoun, though I do struggle with using "them" in the singular and I roll my eyes at the number of genders being thought up..... I agree with your point of not needing the word cis in front of the vast majority of folk in the world. Those identifying as the same sex they were born as are not the exception. However, if folk WANT to add cis to their sex, by all means do. But if the two options for a woman, for example, are "trans woman" and "woman" and folk transitioning from male are happy with the term "trans woman", then cis is not needed. I am simply a 56 yr old woman, who struggles with these things. "Thanks I appreciate it might seem clumsy. I'm not the most articulate person, I'm way better with numbers. I appreciate you took what I said in good faith. It is a good assumption to start with when discussing an issue that can get people very mad. | |||
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"I have a few views on this. People on the ASD spectrum view things differently from neuronormative people. One of those is to see things in distinct categories or to take things literally. Cis is a valid term, especially for allies of non binary and trans community. This leads me on to misgendering, which I appreciate isn't directly under discussion, but is inexorably linked. If people were able to complete forms and tick a cis category, how much simpler? If people tick a non cis or choose not to answer, you can be mindful of how they wish to be gendered, and use they/them and other terms in use. Another topic, deadnaming. I completely understand this. My elder has changed her name legally. She doesn't want to be known by her former name. Not a trans change of name, but very traumatic nonetheless. So I can understand misgendering is as undermining and hurtful as deadnaming. I would like to see more tolerance and understanding towards both ND and LGBTQ+ and those that are in both communities. What's "dead naming?" Is it deliberately referring to someone by their defunct name? If so that's bloody rude. X Yes it’s deliberately using the defunct name. That would be cruel. I'd feel a bit shitty if I deliberately did that. I'm pleased the word is "deliberately" because I think intentions are more important than the words." It does have to be deliberate tone dead naming I understand. Side trivia on this topic, drag queens refer to one another by their drag names even out of drag. It’s considered disrespectful to use their actual names (among drag queens, non drag queens can use their regular names). Trivia on lgbt name conventions. | |||
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"I have a few views on this. People on the ASD spectrum view things differently from neuronormative people. One of those is to see things in distinct categories or to take things literally. Cis is a valid term, especially for allies of non binary and trans community. This leads me on to misgendering, which I appreciate isn't directly under discussion, but is inexorably linked. If people were able to complete forms and tick a cis category, how much simpler? If people tick a non cis or choose not to answer, you can be mindful of how they wish to be gendered, and use they/them and other terms in use. Another topic, deadnaming. I completely understand this. My elder has changed her name legally. She doesn't want to be known by her former name. Not a trans change of name, but very traumatic nonetheless. So I can understand misgendering is as undermining and hurtful as deadnaming. I would like to see more tolerance and understanding towards both ND and LGBTQ+ and those that are in both communities. What's "dead naming?" Is it deliberately referring to someone by their defunct name? If so that's bloody rude. X Yes it’s deliberately using the defunct name. That would be cruel. I'd feel a bit shitty if I deliberately did that. I'm pleased the word is "deliberately" because I think intentions are more important than the words. It does have to be deliberate tone dead naming I understand. Side trivia on this topic, drag queens refer to one another by their drag names even out of drag. It’s considered disrespectful to use their actual names (among drag queens, non drag queens can use their regular names). Trivia on lgbt name conventions. " I guess it's like certain clubs have their own etiquette which makes you belong to that group. | |||
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"I have a few views on this. People on the ASD spectrum view things differently from neuronormative people. One of those is to see things in distinct categories or to take things literally. Cis is a valid term, especially for allies of non binary and trans community. This leads me on to misgendering, which I appreciate isn't directly under discussion, but is inexorably linked. If people were able to complete forms and tick a cis category, how much simpler? If people tick a non cis or choose not to answer, you can be mindful of how they wish to be gendered, and use they/them and other terms in use. Another topic, deadnaming. I completely understand this. My elder has changed her name legally. She doesn't want to be known by her former name. Not a trans change of name, but very traumatic nonetheless. So I can understand misgendering is as undermining and hurtful as deadnaming. I would like to see more tolerance and understanding towards both ND and LGBTQ+ and those that are in both communities. Yeah with regards to your last point I agree. We are all human beings if people could respect each other and discuss in good faith, some of the contentious subjects wouldn't be so dividing. Forgot to mention, elder is autistic, younger probably also on the spectrum, more likely ADD. " I thought ADD was just about struggling to concentrate. I definitely have that but I can also get super engrossed in something. Because I grew up completely unaware I had Asperger's. Someone suggested I had it but I thought because I really like people and don't see them as objects, that definitely isn't me. I only started to wonder if I was different when my friends would absolutely laugh their head off at something I said assuming I had told a joke or had a dry sense of humour when actually I was being serious. Then often when I really am joking, they took it literally. | |||
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"I have a few views on this. People on the ASD spectrum view things differently from neuronormative people. One of those is to see things in distinct categories or to take things literally. Cis is a valid term, especially for allies of non binary and trans community. This leads me on to misgendering, which I appreciate isn't directly under discussion, but is inexorably linked. If people were able to complete forms and tick a cis category, how much simpler? If people tick a non cis or choose not to answer, you can be mindful of how they wish to be gendered, and use they/them and other terms in use. Another topic, deadnaming. I completely understand this. My elder has changed her name legally. She doesn't want to be known by her former name. Not a trans change of name, but very traumatic nonetheless. So I can understand misgendering is as undermining and hurtful as deadnaming. I would like to see more tolerance and understanding towards both ND and LGBTQ+ and those that are in both communities. Yeah with regards to your last point I agree. We are all human beings if people could respect each other and discuss in good faith, some of the contentious subjects wouldn't be so dividing. Forgot to mention, elder is autistic, younger probably also on the spectrum, more likely ADD. I thought ADD was just about struggling to concentrate. I definitely have that but I can also get super engrossed in something. Because I grew up completely unaware I had Asperger's. Someone suggested I had it but I thought because I really like people and don't see them as objects, that definitely isn't me. I only started to wonder if I was different when my friends would absolutely laugh their head off at something I said assuming I had told a joke or had a dry sense of humour when actually I was being serious. Then often when I really am joking, they took it literally. " * When someone suggested I had it, I didn't believe them because* | |||
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"Don't get offended, Don't tell me what to do!" I didn't tell you what to do, I told you how to feel. Not that it is much better. | |||
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"ADD is often attributed to girls, because they don't demonstrate the hyperactivity boys do to get the ADHD diagnosis. I had hoped that in the learning of the last 29 years, there would have been more acceptance of the different presentations between girls and boys in relation to autistic spectrum, which now does incorporate ADHD and ADD. Girls present differently to boys, so many girls experience difficulty in getting a diagnosis during school years due to masking. Typically, it manifests during the transition to secondary school - change of routine, unknown expectations, what used to be a routine is now completely turned on it's head. " I should start an neural divergent thread as I think my comment about being Asperger's has side tracked s lot of people. But finding people's views and experiences of it interesting. It's useful to have some self awareness how some of my traits might come across. | |||
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"I think you've expressed your view with a degree of consideration. Although I do disagree that it's stupid and it's inefficiency is quite contextual. Fundamentally, I would argue it's very efficient it is 3 letter a prefix, which in this context means: I identify with the gender assigned at birth. That makes sense, as some people do not identify with the gender they were assigned at birth. Is it always necessary perhaps not, but if it promotes awareness then that's probably a positive in the long-term. The same could be said of Neurodiversity. My understanding is that Asperger's is no longer a term that's utilised, and it's thought of as high functioning ASD. That's probably a simplistic understanding, but then that furthers the cause of awareness raising. Society ought to consider the needs and inclusion of minorities. I think that's a positive measure of a society. One that's willing to share power, as a moral virtue. I'll row back slightly on stupid. You and others have made me concede that it isn't stupid even if I choose not to use it. I didn't know Asperger's wasn't the normal term any more. When people call it ass burgers I find it pretty funny. Obviously I would feel differently if someone I knew and cared about made a joke with a specific intention to upset me. When I see people make reel videos taking the Mick out of Autism I find it hilarious especially if they're really ignorant. But I never felt like I've experienced real discrimination when it comes to work and it isn't visible so maybe that's why I aren't sensitive about it." I have a lot of respect for that. You threw your understanding out there, listened to others and now you have revised your opinion. I think I've done the same on the high-functioning aspect, reading others comments I've enriched my appreciation of the subject somewhere. I think letting going of being right, or needing there to be a singular definitive or objective answer, is what helps me have that appreciation. That's why I like diversity, in beliefs too, it's an opportunity to learn from others and hear their experience as individuals. I hear what you are saying about ignorance being funny too. This is why I appreciate satire and value it as a mechanism for social change. Not everyone's cup of tea, but hey what is? | |||
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"ADD is often attributed to girls, because they don't demonstrate the hyperactivity boys do to get the ADHD diagnosis. I had hoped that in the learning of the last 29 years, there would have been more acceptance of the different presentations between girls and boys in relation to autistic spectrum, which now does incorporate ADHD and ADD. Girls present differently to boys, so many girls experience difficulty in getting a diagnosis during school years due to masking. Typically, it manifests during the transition to secondary school - change of routine, unknown expectations, what used to be a routine is now completely turned on it's head. I should start an neural divergent thread as I think my comment about being Asperger's has side tracked s lot of people. But finding people's views and experiences of it interesting. It's useful to have some self awareness how some of my traits might come across. " My understanding is that Asperger's is no longer considered separately from Autism Spectrum, it's recognised under that umbrella, the same as ADD and ADHD. There are distinct presentations between girls and boys. The girls who are diagnosed with autism present with the 'male' behaviours. It has long been considered that autism was a prevalently male for want of a better word right now - condition. More recent research indicates a more equal distribution across the sexes, but it takes a very skilled practitioner to recognise a girl to have autism. Due to the co morbidity with anxiety and depression - the masking to "fit in" - autism is too often overlooked. Our experience, whilst under CAMHS, from the CPN - "I don't know enough about autism." | |||
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"That's one thing that often pisses me off about the medical profession in general: how much of a struggle it often is for women to get serious diagnoses in cases where the majority of the research done into things has treated how it presents in men as the default, so there's just sheer ignorance of the differences and it's just treated like they're making things up." Please don't get me started. I have a soap box! | |||
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"I think you've expressed your view with a degree of consideration. Although I do disagree that it's stupid and it's inefficiency is quite contextual. Fundamentally, I would argue it's very efficient it is 3 letter a prefix, which in this context means: I identify with the gender assigned at birth. That makes sense, as some people do not identify with the gender they were assigned at birth. Is it always necessary perhaps not, but if it promotes awareness then that's probably a positive in the long-term. The same could be said of Neurodiversity. My understanding is that Asperger's is no longer a term that's utilised, and it's thought of as high functioning ASD. That's probably a simplistic understanding, but then that furthers the cause of awareness raising. Society ought to consider the needs and inclusion of minorities. I think that's a positive measure of a society. One that's willing to share power, as a moral virtue. I'll row back slightly on stupid. You and others have made me concede that it isn't stupid even if I choose not to use it. I didn't know Asperger's wasn't the normal term any more. When people call it ass burgers I find it pretty funny. Obviously I would feel differently if someone I knew and cared about made a joke with a specific intention to upset me. When I see people make reel videos taking the Mick out of Autism I find it hilarious especially if they're really ignorant. But I never felt like I've experienced real discrimination when it comes to work and it isn't visible so maybe that's why I aren't sensitive about it. I have a lot of respect for that. You threw your understanding out there, listened to others and now you have revised your opinion. I think I've done the same on the high-functioning aspect, reading others comments I've enriched my appreciation of the subject somewhere. I think letting going of being right, or needing there to be a singular definitive or objective answer, is what helps me have that appreciation. That's why I like diversity, in beliefs too, it's an opportunity to learn from others and hear their experience as individuals. I hear what you are saying about ignorance being funny too. This is why I appreciate satire and value it as a mechanism for social change. Not everyone's cup of tea, but hey what is?" I think I find things funny that are silly. I tend to find if you listen to people or they listen to you ... You don't even need to change your mind. You can disagree but still have an appreciation for others. Have you ever listened to a podcast by Megan Phelps Rogers? She was a member of a cult called the Westboro baptist church which picketed funerals of servicemen/women and gay people. Louis Theroux did a documentary about them and she featured heavily. She had some really strong views that most of us would find abhorrent. She ended up leaving the cult and dedicating herself to encouraging people to discuss things with respect. She left the cult because someone on twitter debated her with such kindness. She had previously been taught that she should hate people who didn't share their views. She couldn't understand how people she was meant to hate could be so kind to her. Really fascinating woman. Highly recommend you watch her ted talk on YouTube. Sometimes when I get stuck in my opinion, I think back to her podcast and ted talk and reminds myself to at least listen with respect. | |||
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"That's one thing that often pisses me off about the medical profession in general: how much of a struggle it often is for women to get serious diagnoses in cases where the majority of the research done into things has treated how it presents in men as the default, so there's just sheer ignorance of the differences and it's just treated like they're making things up. Please don't get me started. I have a soap box! " As do I, believe me. The number of times doctors have let my wife down over the years could fill a sodding book! | |||
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"That's one thing that often pisses me off about the medical profession in general: how much of a struggle it often is for women to get serious diagnoses in cases where the majority of the research done into things has treated how it presents in men as the default, so there's just sheer ignorance of the differences and it's just treated like they're making things up. Please don't get me started. I have a soap box! As do I, believe me. The number of times doctors have let my wife down over the years could fill a sodding book!" I empathise. | |||
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"I think you've expressed your view with a degree of consideration. Although I do disagree that it's stupid and it's inefficiency is quite contextual. Fundamentally, I would argue it's very efficient it is 3 letter a prefix, which in this context means: I identify with the gender assigned at birth. That makes sense, as some people do not identify with the gender they were assigned at birth. Is it always necessary perhaps not, but if it promotes awareness then that's probably a positive in the long-term. The same could be said of Neurodiversity. My understanding is that Asperger's is no longer a term that's utilised, and it's thought of as high functioning ASD. That's probably a simplistic understanding, but then that furthers the cause of awareness raising. Society ought to consider the needs and inclusion of minorities. I think that's a positive measure of a society. One that's willing to share power, as a moral virtue. I'll row back slightly on stupid. You and others have made me concede that it isn't stupid even if I choose not to use it. I didn't know Asperger's wasn't the normal term any more. When people call it ass burgers I find it pretty funny. Obviously I would feel differently if someone I knew and cared about made a joke with a specific intention to upset me. When I see people make reel videos taking the Mick out of Autism I find it hilarious especially if they're really ignorant. But I never felt like I've experienced real discrimination when it comes to work and it isn't visible so maybe that's why I aren't sensitive about it. I have a lot of respect for that. You threw your understanding out there, listened to others and now you have revised your opinion. I think I've done the same on the high-functioning aspect, reading others comments I've enriched my appreciation of the subject somewhere. I think letting going of being right, or needing there to be a singular definitive or objective answer, is what helps me have that appreciation. That's why I like diversity, in beliefs too, it's an opportunity to learn from others and hear their experience as individuals. I hear what you are saying about ignorance being funny too. This is why I appreciate satire and value it as a mechanism for social change. Not everyone's cup of tea, but hey what is? I think I find things funny that are silly. I tend to find if you listen to people or they listen to you ... You don't even need to change your mind. You can disagree but still have an appreciation for others. Have you ever listened to a podcast by Megan Phelps Rogers? She was a member of a cult called the Westboro baptist church which picketed funerals of servicemen/women and gay people. Louis Theroux did a documentary about them and she featured heavily. She had some really strong views that most of us would find abhorrent. She ended up leaving the cult and dedicating herself to encouraging people to discuss things with respect. She left the cult because someone on twitter debated her with such kindness. She had previously been taught that she should hate people who didn't share their views. She couldn't understand how people she was meant to hate could be so kind to her. Really fascinating woman. Highly recommend you watch her ted talk on YouTube. Sometimes when I get stuck in my opinion, I think back to her podcast and ted talk and reminds myself to at least listen with respect." That is an interesting story I may take a look. On this occasion I agree with you. Agreeing to disagree is can be just as positive an outcome.  | |||
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"I think it’s fair to say that it’s valid anytime you want to make a distinct between someone who’s trans or not. I.e. if you feel the need to say someone’s a trans woman or trans man, it’s equally valid to say someone a cis man or woman. But if if not pertinent to clarify that someone’s Cis, it’s equally irrelevant to say that they’re a trans woman or man. What’s good for the goose etc etc " Its not "equally valid" and yes it is relevant to clarify in some instances. There are men and women and trans men and trans women. You yourself write in your profile that you are a "trans woman" because it's important to make that distinction, especially when it comes to sex and relationships. You may not like that but it is simply reality. But as to why its not valid to use the term CIS The term "transgender" appears in the 1960s, when it was used both in medicine and by trans activists like Jorgensen and Virginia Prince. It was also a blanket term at the time that covered "transsexualism and transvestism" This was the new term to catch those who did not fall into the previous (and to this day) definition of Man or Woman. Now we had the new Trans Man and Tran woman term added to the lexicon. So we had defined Man and Woman. Then came, thanks to the advances in medicine and surgeries, Trans Man and Trans Woman. The term cisgender however was coined in 1994 as an antonym to transgender, and entered into dictionaries starting in 2015 as a result of changes in social discourse about gender. In short, it started getting used because of silly people on social media. why do I call them silly? Because up till about 10 years ago, the vast majority of the human population knew what a man and woman are. It's the default setting for the human race and how we where born. We all knew some people where not like the others and that was fine but then a small but vocal online community started growing. In short, it's highly unlikely you would have used the term CIS to describe men and women 10 years ago but Trans men and trans women was a term you would certainly have used. So we can go into word salad hell, more so with the amount of pronouns that seem to crop up daily OR we can use common sense to some degree and keep things simple where we can all understand each other easily. But thats just my take. | |||
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"I think it’s fair to say that it’s valid anytime you want to make a distinct between someone who’s trans or not. I.e. if you feel the need to say someone’s a trans woman or trans man, it’s equally valid to say someone a cis man or woman. But if if not pertinent to clarify that someone’s Cis, it’s equally irrelevant to say that they’re a trans woman or man. What’s good for the goose etc etc Its not "equally valid" and yes it is relevant to clarify in some instances. There are men and women and trans men and trans women. You yourself write in your profile that you are a "trans woman" because it's important to make that distinction, especially when it comes to sex and relationships. You may not like that but it is simply reality. But as to why its not valid to use the term CIS The term "transgender" appears in the 1960s, when it was used both in medicine and by trans activists like Jorgensen and Virginia Prince. It was also a blanket term at the time that covered "transsexualism and transvestism" This was the new term to catch those who did not fall into the previous (and to this day) definition of Man or Woman. Now we had the new Trans Man and Tran woman term added to the lexicon. So we had defined Man and Woman. Then came, thanks to the advances in medicine and surgeries, Trans Man and Trans Woman. The term cisgender however was coined in 1994 as an antonym to transgender, and entered into dictionaries starting in 2015 as a result of changes in social discourse about gender. In short, it started getting used because of silly people on social media. why do I call them silly? Because up till about 10 years ago, the vast majority of the human population knew what a man and woman are. It's the default setting for the human race and how we where born. We all knew some people where not like the others and that was fine but then a small but vocal online community started growing. In short, it's highly unlikely you would have used the term CIS to describe men and women 10 years ago but Trans men and trans women was a term you would certainly have used. So we can go into word salad hell, more so with the amount of pronouns that seem to crop up daily OR we can use common sense to some degree and keep things simple where we can all understand each other easily. But thats just my take. " Very well put, Mrs x | |||
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"I don’t know. Is it important that you care about that strongly? I see the people getting wound up about pronouns to be the problem here. Wether I agree with using them or not isnt the issue, I simply use someone’s name. And the cis thing….I had to look up what that meant, which means I was doing alright before without the need to know what it was. I think a lot of people just want an argument in their lives. " Definitely that last paragraph. I’ll always be a woman. That’s it. I can’t see me ever using the word cis. If someone else wants to who cares?! Can’t believe all the threads about this. I’d never even heard of the word until I saw it on here | |||
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"I'm ADHD Autistic, I have no issues with pronouns or the term 'cis'. Personally I'm not interested in pronouns and would unsubscribe from gender all together if it was an option but I don't see an issue with respecting other people's pronouns if it's important to them. Gender identity isn't binary but that's been the view we've tried to hammer into the society consciousness and the more we talk and normalise pronouns and terms like 'cis' the more we unpick that. People don't like change though and so will reject it when it happens because change is uncomfortable." It's not change though. Cis is just a nonsensical prefix. If a woman is a female who identifies as such because she was born female and a Cis woman is a female who identifies as such because she was born female, then Cis is a redundant part of the description. What does Cis bring to the party? Nothing. Can anyone explain why it's a more accurate description than saying woman for a woman? Mrs x | |||
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"I'm a cis woman and happy with that ! X" When did you know you were a Cis woman? X | |||
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"I'm ADHD Autistic, I have no issues with pronouns or the term 'cis'. Personally I'm not interested in pronouns and would unsubscribe from gender all together if it was an option but I don't see an issue with respecting other people's pronouns if it's important to them. Gender identity isn't binary but that's been the view we've tried to hammer into the society consciousness and the more we talk and normalise pronouns and terms like 'cis' the more we unpick that. People don't like change though and so will reject it when it happens because change is uncomfortable." This | |||
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"Necessary? I'm not sure anyone ever defined it as necessary. The logic behind stating it is that it's easier for people to confirm they are 'standard' than to confirm they are not. There has been many historical issues that prevent people identifying as 'non standard'. The logic therefore was that it's easier for the majority to start the ball rolling, by normalising the stating of preferred pronoun use by stating they are cis. The thought was that this would them make it easier for non-cis people to indicate their preference. Does it work? Honestly I've no idea, I've never seen any studies done, but I understand the reasoning behind it and it's not a great hardship for me to add he/him to my email signature." So now I have to confirm I'm standard now. And the way to do that is to add a prefix to my definition, despite the 'old' definition of woman being universally acceptable for millennial. Cis adds nothing, it's just a label that was thought up in 1994. Anyone can chose to call themselves anything, I have no problem with that I just wished others would show the same respect. If it's not broken why change it. If, using your terminology, someone who is not 'standard" has more of an obligation to state this not the other way round. So a man transitioning into woman is described accurately as a 'trans woman'. It's not the responsibility of someone who hasn't transitioned to establish this. I've never been asked if I have transitioned, ever. Everyone I have met have assumed correctly that I'm a woman. Can I ask if you've ever been asked whether you've transitioned or, like me, others have assumed your identity correctly. I've never been asked what my pronouns are either. This is an issue fir te minority of the world's population. As a decent person, I will suspend my belief in accurate grammatical rules and call them what they want to be called, no matter whether I believe in the sense of it. Mrs x | |||
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"Who cares about labels. It's all about chemistry?" Hang on I thought it was all about the boogie !  | |||
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"That's one thing that often pisses me off about the medical profession in general: how much of a struggle it often is for women to get serious diagnoses in cases where the majority of the research done into things has treated how it presents in men as the default, so there's just sheer ignorance of the differences and it's just treated like they're making things up. Please don't get me started. I have a soap box! As do I, believe me. The number of times doctors have let my wife down over the years could fill a sodding book!" I can say exactly the same as you, on that matter. Around 7 years of revolving door hospital admissions before she received appropriate diagnosis and treatment. | |||
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"Who cares about labels. It's all about chemistry? Hang on I thought it was all about the boogie ! "Blame it on the boogie. | |||
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"You can identify as a lampshade for all I care, just don't expect me to play along... Sorry, not sorry. " | |||
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"... someone who is not 'standard" has more of an obligation to state this not the other way round. So a man transitioning into woman is described accurately as a 'trans woman'. It's not the responsibility of someone who hasn't transitioned to establish this." Yes, nobody said its a responsibility, right at the top, I said, nobody claims it's necessary. A cat and 4 kittens turned up in my stables a year ago. It wasn't my responsibility to feed them. All I'm saying is that it's easier for me to state that my pronouns are he/him. So why not. It's certainly easier than it was for me to feed the kittens (especially after the mom drew blood ) but again, why not? Do we really need something to be necessary, or 'our responsibility' before we do it? Maybe I shouldn't help an old lady with her bags, because it's not 'my responsibility'. It worried me when responsibility becomes a decision factor in our behaviour. | |||
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"I'm a cis woman and happy with that ! XWhen did you know you were a Cis woman? X" Can't remember! | |||
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"... someone who is not 'standard" has more of an obligation to state this not the other way round. So a man transitioning into woman is described accurately as a 'trans woman'. It's not the responsibility of someone who hasn't transitioned to establish this. Yes, nobody said its a responsibility, right at the top, I said, nobody claims it's necessary. A cat and 4 kittens turned up in my stables a year ago. It wasn't my responsibility to feed them. All I'm saying is that it's easier for me to state that my pronouns are he/him. So why not. It's certainly easier than it was for me to feed the kittens (especially after the mom drew blood ) but again, why not? Do we really need something to be necessary, or 'our responsibility' before we do it? Maybe I shouldn't help an old lady with her bags, because it's not 'my responsibility'. It worried me when responsibility becomes a decision factor in our behaviour. "Have you ever been misgendered? Has someone every asked you if you've transitioned? If they haven't then why feel the need to state your pronouns or use the prefix Cis. If you've never been one of these two things it would appear that the current, millenia old naming conventions are working for you. So why change? What benefit do you get from doing so? I'm not saying don't respect others, their transitions or pro ound but for most people the prefix Cis is superfluous and redundant. Why state your pronouns if they already align with the existing ones for your gender? Mrs x | |||
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"I'm a cis woman and happy with that ! XWhen did you know you were a Cis woman? X Can't remember! "Think we are close in age. So for the first 30 years of your life you didn't identify as Cis. So why now? If I say I accepted that Cis was appropriate and meant you identify with your birth gender, you were already doing that when you called yourself a 'woman'. So what happened for you to feel the need to add Cis to woman? Other than adding three more letters to a perfectly good description and it taking slightly longer to write nothing else has changed. It's not useful. Mrs x | |||
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"Who cares about labels. It's all about chemistry? Hang on I thought it was all about the boogie ! "You can’t blame it on the boogie. | |||
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"Well let's just go for human then. Even more efficient." But you still need to make a distinction for the two sexes of humans. Mrs x | |||
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"Any approaches I get professionally from folks with pronouns in their bio get put straight into junk. I know they'll be a progressive pain in the arse and not worth bothering with. I have several trans clients who are perfectly lovely and they don't feel the need to trumpet their pronouns and label people with the insulting CIS term. " Company I work for started all that pronoun rubbish. It is voluntary at the minute. I refuse to do it. If it becomes mandatory I will become she. | |||
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"...Have you ever been misgendered? Has someone every asked you if you've transitioned? If they haven't then why feel the need to state your pronouns or use the prefix Cis..." Ignoring for a minute that I already said that I don't feel a NEED to state it. But I work for a multinational company. Not everyone I deal with would guess that my preferred pronouns are he/his; certainly I deal with people on a daily basis that I have no idea on...if they dont state them. So I state mine. As I say, it's not necessary, but it removes the need to ask. And were I not Cis, then it would simply inform people of my preferred pronouns. It's really that simple, no ulterior motive, just relatively unimportant (to me) information. Personally I'd prefer us to go back to the original wereman, wifman and leave man as the gender neutral, but I doubt I'd get much support for that ?? | |||
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"No it's not necessary. A woman is a woman. " Interesting, do you have a definition of a woman? Actually woman is possibly the easiest as it seems to be the biological default, for humans at least...in appearance anyway, XY females look female, but they're kinda not really...although there are recorded instances of them giving birth. Far more ducks need to align to become a man. | |||
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"... someone who is not 'standard" has more of an obligation to state this not the other way round. So a man transitioning into woman is described accurately as a 'trans woman'. It's not the responsibility of someone who hasn't transitioned to establish this. Yes, nobody said its a responsibility, right at the top, I said, nobody claims it's necessary. A cat and 4 kittens turned up in my stables a year ago. It wasn't my responsibility to feed them. All I'm saying is that it's easier for me to state that my pronouns are he/him. So why not. It's certainly easier than it was for me to feed the kittens (especially after the mom drew blood ) but again, why not? Do we really need something to be necessary, or 'our responsibility' before we do it? Maybe I shouldn't help an old lady with her bags, because it's not 'my responsibility'. It worried me when responsibility becomes a decision factor in our behaviour. "I should have read your post more thoroughly before. I find your take on the notion of responsibility, if not strange, is very selfish. When you say ' It worried me when responsibility becomes a decision factor in our behaviour'. It must be wonderful to live a life free from responsibility, not allowing such to affect my decisions. However like everyone else on here I believe responsibility plays a massive part in the decisions people make. Take those stray cats you mentioned. I can understand, with them being 'stray' you may not have responsibility for them. However if they were your pets you would be responsible for them. Any decision on your behalf to neglect them would find you in trouble. It's your 'responsibility' towards these animals that would surely affect your decisions. The same would apply for your old lady analogy. Stranger equals no responsibility but if she was your elderly mother her safety would surely be the responsibility of a loving son. Responsibility affects almost every aspect of my life. I feel it towards my hubby, friends, children and grandkids, this dictates the decisions I make in regard to them. So going back to the topic. I as a woman, jumping into bed feel no responsibility to inform any possible playmate that I'm a woman. I'm not keeping anything from them, and it will become blatantly obvious that so. However I believe that those who have transitioned, are responsible to any potential playmate to be 100% honest and upfront about this. People deserve to know these things about those you are about to be intimate with. Even if the transition is so perfect that a partner wouldn't know, they should still be told. Otherwise you'd be removing the choice from that person. So be responsible, remove all ambiguity and if a potential partner chooses not to carry on with the encounter better that than awkwardness, or something worse, afterwards. Plenty of fish in the sea, there is someone for everyone. So yes I do believe trans woman or trans men are responsible for highlighting this. Mrs x | |||
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"No it's not necessary. A woman is a woman. Interesting, do you have a definition of a woman? Actually woman is possibly the easiest as it seems to be the biological default, for humans at least...in appearance anyway, XY females look female, but they're kinda not really...although there are recorded instances of them giving birth. Far more ducks need to align to become a man." Have you been misgendered before? I doubt it but it would be illuminating to know. Mrs x | |||
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"Company I work for started all that pronoun rubbish. It is voluntary at the minute. I refuse to do it. If it becomes mandatory I will become she. " There is no need to be antagonistic. As Myriam Margolis said, if it makes them happy, I'll use whatever pronouns they prefer. Be kind. Gender is not only Western. If you're called John or Jane, you don't need to put your pronouns preference because we know (because in this day of Hollywood and the internet, John or Jane is likely obvious world wide). When I worked in a culturally diverse London Borough, we were asked if we wanted gender pronouns on our email signatures. So I looked up the register of names and I found Dakarai, Aaguni, Zhao, Aoife, Bedwyr, Sky. Council employees have difficulty decided if they were male or female. So it became an optional policy. So by all means say you're "she/ her / hers" but you are being childish. | |||
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"Do all people with Asperger's or ASD think the same as you? If the answer is no, then you have the answer to your original question. Everyone is different. Including people who are, according to societal norms, "different". For example, I am a wheelchair user, a minority. But my need and adaptations are completely different to my friend J, who is also a wheelchair user. I think needs and Adaptions of someone in a wheelchair is very different because they are absolutely necessary. The equivalent would be to expect everyone to ride in a wheelchair to make you feel better. PS I'm sorry that sounds so crass, I didn't mean it to and I expect you want to reply and challenge it " Jesus | |||
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"I guess some people see women as including both cis and trans and therefore of you use women in lieu of cis women it down grades trans women. The read across to autism doesn't quite work because of that. Maybe it would if you had "choose your sex" being: Women Man Autistic Women Autistic Man " I understand what you are saying, particularly in regards as some people seeing woman as including trans woman and woman. But you are not acknowledging the vast majority of woman who don't believe that they are the same as trans woman. Trans people have to go through a whole battery of procedures to transition into their preferred sex, involving chemical, psychological, and surgical procedures. Whilst most woman have done nothing from a transitional point of view. No matter how much is done, trans woman are not the same as woman. It's not a down grading. For that to happen we'd have to be the same originally and a negative change would then have to happen to a trans woman to then be seen as down graded. Transition is actually a positive to those that want it. Celebrate it if you must, and rightly so but don't ask for us to accept you and call you by your chosen names but ignore us when we ask for the same respect. I'm a woman, not Cis anything, stop pushing this onto woman, the vast majority of whom don't want this prefix. I've spent the majority of my life just being a woman before the term Cis was first used in 1994. Why would I decide to change now, particularly when, if I did decide to use it, it would mean exactly the same as what I was before. So come on, I'll respect you, call you what you want but respect woman and stop referring to us as Cis. Think a lot of this is down to virtue signalling. Mrs x | |||
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"When talking directly to somebody, you don't use their pronouns, only really when you're talking to someone else about them. If a 6'6" person with a beard tells me that their name is Sandra, I'll call them Sandra. When referring to them, I would say "The person called Sandra said...." Other than that, no need to use he, she etc. The only one I refuse to use is "them/they" for an individual. For example, Sam Smith is a man. He is a bloody awful singer and I can't stand his screechy voice. It is as much my right to refer to him as he, as it is his right to ask to be referred to as "they". " I saw a man stood at the side of the road earlier. They were wearing a hat. I could have complimented them on their hat but it was too hot to slow the car down and shout out of the window. | |||
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"When talking directly to somebody, you don't use their pronouns, only really when you're talking to someone else about them. If a 6'6" person with a beard tells me that their name is Sandra, I'll call them Sandra. When referring to them, I would say "The person called Sandra said...." Other than that, no need to use he, she etc. The only one I refuse to use is "them/they" for an individual. For example, Sam Smith is a man. He is a bloody awful singer and I can't stand his screechy voice. It is as much my right to refer to him as he, as it is his right to ask to be referred to as "they". I saw a man stood at the side of the road earlier. They were wearing a hat. I could have complimented them on their hat but it was too hot to slow the car down and shout out of the window. " I thought you said a man, not men? Wasn’t he wearing a hat? Being too hot to slow down is no excuse for not complementing him? Now, if you saw someone sneaking around in the shadows, you might report a possible burglar. You might say to the police that they were wearing dark clothes so you could not tell what they looked like. English is awesome! | |||
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"I guess some people see women as including both cis and trans and therefore of you use women in lieu of cis women it down grades trans women. The read across to autism doesn't quite work because of that. Maybe it would if you had "choose your sex" being: Women Man Autistic Women Autistic Man I understand what you are saying, particularly in regards as some people seeing woman as including trans woman and woman. But you are not acknowledging the vast majority of woman who don't believe that they are the same as trans woman. Trans people have to go through a whole battery of procedures to transition into their preferred sex, involving chemical, psychological, and surgical procedures. Whilst most woman have done nothing from a transitional point of view. No matter how much is done, trans woman are not the same as woman. It's not a down grading. For that to happen we'd have to be the same originally and a negative change would then have to happen to a trans woman to then be seen as down graded. Transition is actually a positive to those that want it. Celebrate it if you must, and rightly so but don't ask for us to accept you and call you by your chosen names but ignore us when we ask for the same respect. I'm a woman, not Cis anything, stop pushing this onto woman, the vast majority of whom don't want this prefix. I've spent the majority of my life just being a woman before the term Cis was first used in 1994. Why would I decide to change now, particularly when, if I did decide to use it, it would mean exactly the same as what I was before. So come on, I'll respect you, call you what you want but respect woman and stop referring to us as Cis. Think a lot of this is down to virtue signalling. Mrs x" tbh, I've seen very few cases where cis was used and have never would force it on someone. Id equally not force trans on describing someone. There's an interesting line of science ATM that suggests there is a higher degree of correlation between a (cis) women and a trans women versus a trans women and a (cis) man. Given how important the brain is to identity, I can see us getting into sex equal genitals and gender equals brain. And as out minds make us human I can see why we'd use that as a way of classifying humans. But like sexuality and indeed autism, I suspect there's more science to come to change views. | |||
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"...Have you been misgendered before? I doubt it but it would be illuminating to know." Not me no, but I did grow up with a girl who was intersex. Sadly I lost contact with her before I gained the biological knowledge that I have now, so I don't know the exact genetic make-up that she had. For anyone interested in the topic there are a few interesting YouTube channels by interesx posters. A user called Blume is one of my favourite, but there are others. | |||
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"When talking directly to somebody, you don't use their pronouns, only really when you're talking to someone else about them. If a 6'6" person with a beard tells me that their name is Sandra, I'll call them Sandra. When referring to them, I would say "The person called Sandra said...." Other than that, no need to use he, she etc. The only one I refuse to use is "them/they" for an individual. For example, Sam Smith is a man. He is a bloody awful singer and I can't stand his screechy voice. It is as much my right to refer to him as he, as it is his right to ask to be referred to as "they". I saw a man stood at the side of the road earlier. They were wearing a hat. I could have complimented them on their hat but it was too hot to slow the car down and shout out of the window. " Who has so great about them hat those is wearing? Words matter | |||
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Someone could identify as a chocolate covered teaspoon, live and let live is my take on it | |||
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"I'm a cis woman and happy with that ! XWhen did you know you were a Cis woman? X Can't remember! Think we are close in age. So for the first 30 years of your life you didn't identify as Cis. So why now?
If I say I accepted that Cis was appropriate and meant you identify with your birth gender, you were already doing that when you called yourself a 'woman'.
So what happened for you to feel the need to add Cis to woman? Other than adding three more letters to a perfectly good description and it taking slightly longer to write nothing else has changed.
It's not useful.
Mrs x"I'm alot older than u lol! My eldest daughter is nearer your age! And as I say just makes things clearer to refer to myself as cis! I'm happy with that x | |||
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"Any approaches I get professionally from folks with pronouns in their bio get put straight into junk. I know they'll be a progressive pain in the arse and not worth bothering with. I have several trans clients who are perfectly lovely and they don't feel the need to trumpet their pronouns and label people with the insulting CIS term. " I put many bios in the junk (blocked) usually with uncomfortable views | |||
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"Deliberately using the wrong pronouns to spite someone is shitty. Accidentally doing so because you perceived them as male or female based on their presentation happens. People who get shouty about that are shitty. My pronouns for me are I/me. I don't really care what anyone else chooses to use for me. But then presenting as a cishet pretty white female I've never had a need to feel upset about someone trying to upset me with it "There are many shitty people with ignorant views on fabswingers. Some in this chat..... | |||
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"I don't use pronouns, no one has ever asked me and I've never been in a situation where it has ever came up either. " Same here. I have found it quite easy to drop pronouns and just use a person's current/active name when referring to a that person. . The other thing I have found it quite easy to do is not think, "Is this persona male or female or something else". They are just a human, and what they wear or present as is of no significance to me personally. . Sure, it matters to them as that is part of their identity. But if they wear something to try and achieve a desired effect on me, it falls flat. I tune that signal out and ignore that manipulation. | |||
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"I'm a cis woman and happy with that ! XWhen did you know you were a Cis woman? X Can't remember! Think we are close in age. So for the first 30 years of your life you didn't identify as Cis. So why now?
If I say I accepted that Cis was appropriate and meant you identify with your birth gender, you were already doing that when you called yourself a 'woman'.
So what happened for you to feel the need to add Cis to woman? Other than adding three more letters to a perfectly good description and it taking slightly longer to write nothing else has changed.
It's not useful.
Mrs x
I'm alot older than u lol! My eldest daughter is nearer your age! And as I say just makes things clearer to refer to myself as cis! I'm happy with that x"You don't look your age then, if I can remember what I've seen on your profile. I know you say it makes it clearer but I cannot see how. When did being a woman become less clear for you and why? Mrs x | |||
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"If it wasn't tragic it would be hilarious, reading all the people on here that get so butt hurt about the existence of a prefix word that is not only perfectly valid English, but is also only used in order to bring clarity to intellectual discourse. I don't use the phrase "people that are not left handed", I say right handed people. I don't use the phrase "people who are not homosexual", I say heterosexual people. I don't use the phrase "people who are not male", I say female people. I don't use the phrase "people who are not blind", I say sighted people. I don't use the phrase "people who are not transgender", I say cisgender people. But if I don't need to differentiate between left handed and right handed people, I say "people". If I don't need to differentiate between homosexual people and heterosexual people, I say "people". If I don't need to differentiate between male people and female people, I say "people". If I don't need to differentiate between blind people and sighted people, I say "people". And if I don't need to differentiate between transgender people and cisgender people, I say "people". Funnily enough though, it's mostly only the people that bitch about being referred to as cisgender, who are the ones that force me to say that I'm transgender. Who say that I'm trying to deceive them if I won't label myself as transgender. Who are the ones that insist that there must be differentiation between transgender and cisgender people. But if you insist that I do have to distinguish in my language between people that are left handed and people that are not left handed, you know what? I'm going to use the word for the opposite of left, which is "right". And I'm going to use the word for the opposite of homosexual, which is "heterosexual". And I'm going to use the perfectly valid scientific prefix that has been around for several hundred years for the opposite of trans, which is "cis". You don't like it? I didn't invent it. It's English, the language of the country where you live. If you live here, maybe learn the language?" Or you could just say man or woman. There the opposite of fans men or trans woman using your logic. I respect what you want to be known as just show women or men the same courtesy and drop the Cis. Men and woman are English words dating way back, much longer than 1994. And anyone who 'bitches' about this is not forcing you to call yourself anything but take some responsibility for calling yourself a 'trans woman', you had to transition to get to were you are. If you hadn't you'd still be living in a body you didn't identify with. You should celebrate it, you are a 'trans woman'. Woman have not had to have anything done to them to be a women. I remember when the names some people used back in the day, to describe people in the 'trans community' were horrible, hurtful and demeaning. Thankfully it's a lot better now. But knowing this and going through what you must have gone through to get here, you show a total lack of respect when insisting to call others by a name they don't identify with and are insulted by. Why would you do that? The 'trans community" advocate for respect and tolerance, yet individuals within that community are blatantly disregarding this for other communities, people who identify, who actually are men and woman. So what do you think it is, tragic or hilarious? I just find it sad. You've been able to transition, something that was impossible less than 100 years ago, you're community seems to be having the respect and tolerance you deserve and yet you behave contrary to the aims of the 'trans community". Can't people just be nice. Mrs x | |||
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"If it wasn't tragic it would be hilarious, reading all the people on here that get so butt hurt about the existence of a prefix word that is not only perfectly valid English, but is also only used in order to bring clarity to intellectual discourse. I don't use the phrase "people that are not left handed", I say right handed people. I don't use the phrase "people who are not homosexual", I say heterosexual people. I don't use the phrase "people who are not male", I say female people. I don't use the phrase "people who are not blind", I say sighted people. I don't use the phrase "people who are not transgender", I say cisgender people. But if I don't need to differentiate between left handed and right handed people, I say "people". If I don't need to differentiate between homosexual people and heterosexual people, I say "people". If I don't need to differentiate between male people and female people, I say "people". If I don't need to differentiate between blind people and sighted people, I say "people". And if I don't need to differentiate between transgender people and cisgender people, I say "people". Funnily enough though, it's mostly only the people that bitch about being referred to as cisgender, who are the ones that force me to say that I'm transgender. Who say that I'm trying to deceive them if I won't label myself as transgender. Who are the ones that insist that there must be differentiation between transgender and cisgender people. But if you insist that I do have to distinguish in my language between people that are left handed and people that are not left handed, you know what? I'm going to use the word for the opposite of left, which is "right". And I'm going to use the word for the opposite of homosexual, which is "heterosexual". And I'm going to use the perfectly valid scientific prefix that has been around for several hundred years for the opposite of trans, which is "cis". You don't like it? I didn't invent it. It's English, the language of the country where you live. If you live here, maybe learn the language?" xx | |||
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"If it wasn't tragic it would be hilarious, reading all the people on here that get so butt hurt about the existence of a prefix word that is not only perfectly valid English, but is also only used in order to bring clarity to intellectual discourse. I don't use the phrase "people that are not left handed", I say right handed people. I don't use the phrase "people who are not homosexual", I say heterosexual people. I don't use the phrase "people who are not male", I say female people. I don't use the phrase "people who are not blind", I say sighted people. I don't use the phrase "people who are not transgender", I say cisgender people. But if I don't need to differentiate between left handed and right handed people, I say "people". If I don't need to differentiate between homosexual people and heterosexual people, I say "people". If I don't need to differentiate between male people and female people, I say "people". If I don't need to differentiate between blind people and sighted people, I say "people". And if I don't need to differentiate between transgender people and cisgender people, I say "people". Funnily enough though, it's mostly only the people that bitch about being referred to as cisgender, who are the ones that force me to say that I'm transgender. Who say that I'm trying to deceive them if I won't label myself as transgender. Who are the ones that insist that there must be differentiation between transgender and cisgender people. But if you insist that I do have to distinguish in my language between people that are left handed and people that are not left handed, you know what? I'm going to use the word for the opposite of left, which is "right". And I'm going to use the word for the opposite of homosexual, which is "heterosexual". And I'm going to use the perfectly valid scientific prefix that has been around for several hundred years for the opposite of trans, which is "cis". You don't like it? I didn't invent it. It's English, the language of the country where you live. If you live here, maybe learn the language? Or you could just say man or woman. There the opposite of fans men or trans woman using your logic. I respect what you want to be known as just show women or men the same courtesy and drop the Cis. Men and woman are English words dating way back, much longer than 1994. And anyone who 'bitches' about this is not forcing you to call yourself anything but take some responsibility for calling yourself a 'trans woman', you had to transition to get to were you are. If you hadn't you'd still be living in a body you didn't identify with. You should celebrate it, you are a 'trans woman'. Woman have not had to have anything done to them to be a women. I remember when the names some people used back in the day, to describe people in the 'trans community' were horrible, hurtful and demeaning. Thankfully it's a lot better now. But knowing this and going through what you must have gone through to get here, you show a total lack of respect when insisting to call others by a name they don't identify with and are insulted by. Why would you do that? The 'trans community" advocate for respect and tolerance, yet individuals within that community are blatantly disregarding this for other communities, people who identify, who actually are men and woman. So what do you think it is, tragic or hilarious? I just find it sad. You've been able to transition, something that was impossible less than 100 years ago, you're community seems to be having the respect and tolerance you deserve and yet you behave contrary to the aims of the 'trans community". Can't people just be nice. Mrs x" Actually, I deliberately never used the words "cis women". I used the words "cisgender people", which is the correct term for "all the people that are not transgender". If I wanted to say "all people" I would use neither cis or trans prefixes. According to your misuse of the English language, the opposite of "transgender people" would be just "people". Thus implying that transgender people are not in fact people, as your use of the word "people" would actually exclude transgender people. I am a person, I am part of the people, I am transgender. The word "people" does not mean "all of the people that are not transgender", it means "all of the people". In normal discourse I would have absolutely no need to refer to you as "cisgender". In normal discourse I only use the term to identify the group of people that are not transgender. Funnily enough, the only people that regularly use the term "cis women", the only people that keep the term "cis" in the news, the only people constantly shouting that they are being called "cis" are.... cisgender people. It's a thing only because you have made it a thing. You are hurt by the use of a word that you are the only people regularly using. Transgender people are a minority. Newspapers are not owned by transgender people. When the word "cis" appears in a newspaper, on the television, is spoken in parliament, it is not put there by a transgender person. It is put there by a cisgender person, making a big deal about how hurt they are by the use of the word "cis", that they have self-applied as a label. Every one of these forum threads that bangs on about "cis"? Started by a cisgender person. Why do I have to talk about "cis"? Because I am responding on a thread that would not exist except for the existence of a cisgender person banging on about how awful it is that transgender people use the term cisgender, which they only have to because cisgender people keep starting arguments about it! | |||
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"If it wasn't tragic it would be hilarious, reading all the people on here that get so butt hurt about the existence of a prefix word that is not only perfectly valid English, but is also only used in order to bring clarity to intellectual discourse. I don't use the phrase "people that are not left handed", I say right handed people. I don't use the phrase "people who are not homosexual", I say heterosexual people. I don't use the phrase "people who are not male", I say female people. I don't use the phrase "people who are not blind", I say sighted people. I don't use the phrase "people who are not transgender", I say cisgender people. But if I don't need to differentiate between left handed and right handed people, I say "people". If I don't need to differentiate between homosexual people and heterosexual people, I say "people". If I don't need to differentiate between male people and female people, I say "people". If I don't need to differentiate between blind people and sighted people, I say "people". And if I don't need to differentiate between transgender people and cisgender people, I say "people". Funnily enough though, it's mostly only the people that bitch about being referred to as cisgender, who are the ones that force me to say that I'm transgender. Who say that I'm trying to deceive them if I won't label myself as transgender. Who are the ones that insist that there must be differentiation between transgender and cisgender people. But if you insist that I do have to distinguish in my language between people that are left handed and people that are not left handed, you know what? I'm going to use the word for the opposite of left, which is "right". And I'm going to use the word for the opposite of homosexual, which is "heterosexual". And I'm going to use the perfectly valid scientific prefix that has been around for several hundred years for the opposite of trans, which is "cis". You don't like it? I didn't invent it. It's English, the language of the country where you live. If you live here, maybe learn the language? Or you could just say man or woman. There the opposite of fans men or trans woman using your logic. I respect what you want to be known as just show women or men the same courtesy and drop the Cis. Men and woman are English words dating way back, much longer than 1994. And anyone who 'bitches' about this is not forcing you to call yourself anything but take some responsibility for calling yourself a 'trans woman', you had to transition to get to were you are. If you hadn't you'd still be living in a body you didn't identify with. You should celebrate it, you are a 'trans woman'. Woman have not had to have anything done to them to be a women. I remember when the names some people used back in the day, to describe people in the 'trans community' were horrible, hurtful and demeaning. Thankfully it's a lot better now. But knowing this and going through what you must have gone through to get here, you show a total lack of respect when insisting to call others by a name they don't identify with and are insulted by. Why would you do that? The 'trans community" advocate for respect and tolerance, yet individuals within that community are blatantly disregarding this for other communities, people who identify, who actually are men and woman. So what do you think it is, tragic or hilarious? I just find it sad. You've been able to transition, something that was impossible less than 100 years ago, you're community seems to be having the respect and tolerance you deserve and yet you behave contrary to the aims of the 'trans community". Can't people just be nice. Mrs x Actually, I deliberately never used the words "cis women". I used the words "cisgender people", which is the correct term for "all the people that are not transgender". If I wanted to say "all people" I would use neither cis or trans prefixes. According to your misuse of the English language, the opposite of "transgender people" would be just "people". Thus implying that transgender people are not in fact people, as your use of the word "people" would actually exclude transgender people. I am a person, I am part of the people, I am transgender. The word "people" does not mean "all of the people that are not transgender", it means "all of the people". In normal discourse I would have absolutely no need to refer to you as "cisgender". In normal discourse I only use the term to identify the group of people that are not transgender. Funnily enough, the only people that regularly use the term "cis women", the only people that keep the term "cis" in the news, the only people constantly shouting that they are being called "cis" are.... cisgender people. It's a thing only because you have made it a thing. You are hurt by the use of a word that you are the only people regularly using. Transgender people are a minority. Newspapers are not owned by transgender people. When the word "cis" appears in a newspaper, on the television, is spoken in parliament, it is not put there by a transgender person. It is put there by a cisgender person, making a big deal about how hurt they are by the use of the word "cis", that they have self-applied as a label. Every one of these forum threads that bangs on about "cis"? Started by a cisgender person. Why do I have to talk about "cis"? Because I am responding on a thread that would not exist except for the existence of a cisgender person banging on about how awful it is that transgender people use the term cisgender, which they only have to because cisgender people keep starting arguments about it!" This is bang on. Very well said | |||
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" Every one of these forum threads that bangs on about "cis"? Started by a cisgender person. Why do I have to talk about "cis"? Because I am responding on a thread that would not exist except for the existence of a cisgender person banging on about how awful it is that transgender people use the term cisgender, which they only have to because cisgender people keep starting arguments about it!" This part | |||
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"If it wasn't tragic it would be hilarious, reading all the people on here that get so butt hurt about the existence of a prefix word that is not only perfectly valid English, but is also only used in order to bring clarity to intellectual discourse. I don't use the phrase "people that are not left handed", I say right handed people. I don't use the phrase "people who are not homosexual", I say heterosexual people. I don't use the phrase "people who are not male", I say female people. I don't use the phrase "people who are not blind", I say sighted people. I don't use the phrase "people who are not transgender", I say cisgender people. But if I don't need to differentiate between left handed and right handed people, I say "people". If I don't need to differentiate between homosexual people and heterosexual people, I say "people". If I don't need to differentiate between male people and female people, I say "people". If I don't need to differentiate between blind people and sighted people, I say "people". And if I don't need to differentiate between transgender people and cisgender people, I say "people". Funnily enough though, it's mostly only the people that bitch about being referred to as cisgender, who are the ones that force me to say that I'm transgender. Who say that I'm trying to deceive them if I won't label myself as transgender. Who are the ones that insist that there must be differentiation between transgender and cisgender people. But if you insist that I do have to distinguish in my language between people that are left handed and people that are not left handed, you know what? I'm going to use the word for the opposite of left, which is "right". And I'm going to use the word for the opposite of homosexual, which is "heterosexual". And I'm going to use the perfectly valid scientific prefix that has been around for several hundred years for the opposite of trans, which is "cis". You don't like it? I didn't invent it. It's English, the language of the country where you live. If you live here, maybe learn the language?" People need to ask you if you're Trans gender? | |||
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"If it wasn't tragic it would be hilarious, reading all the people on here that get so butt hurt about the existence of a prefix word that is not only perfectly valid English, but is also only used in order to bring clarity to intellectual discourse. I don't use the phrase "people that are not left handed", I say right handed people. I don't use the phrase "people who are not homosexual", I say heterosexual people. I don't use the phrase "people who are not male", I say female people. I don't use the phrase "people who are not blind", I say sighted people. I don't use the phrase "people who are not transgender", I say cisgender people. But if I don't need to differentiate between left handed and right handed people, I say "people". If I don't need to differentiate between homosexual people and heterosexual people, I say "people". If I don't need to differentiate between male people and female people, I say "people". If I don't need to differentiate between blind people and sighted people, I say "people". And if I don't need to differentiate between transgender people and cisgender people, I say "people". Funnily enough though, it's mostly only the people that bitch about being referred to as cisgender, who are the ones that force me to say that I'm transgender. Who say that I'm trying to deceive them if I won't label myself as transgender. Who are the ones that insist that there must be differentiation between transgender and cisgender people. But if you insist that I do have to distinguish in my language between people that are left handed and people that are not left handed, you know what? I'm going to use the word for the opposite of left, which is "right". And I'm going to use the word for the opposite of homosexual, which is "heterosexual". And I'm going to use the perfectly valid scientific prefix that has been around for several hundred years for the opposite of trans, which is "cis". You don't like it? I didn't invent it. It's English, the language of the country where you live. If you live here, maybe learn the language? People need to ask you if you're Trans gender? " I've been misgendered. Not on purpose. It's much faster to say "I'm cis" than to convey that indirectly. "I'm a woman" isn't specific enough. Generally this is what words are for - shorthand concepts. | |||
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