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 ) and other than feeling anger reading the articles online, I also got thinking about the other health inequalities that exist.
The theme for LGBTQ+ history month is health. And the NHS website says that ‘The evidence that LGBT+ people have disproportionately worse health outcomes and experiences of healthcare is both compelling and consistent.’
Anyway it made me think, as wonderful our NHS is, is it fit for purpose? What are the solutions do you think to address health inequalities like these? | |||
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"The NHS isn't the problem. People and culture are the problem. These inequalities are reproduced, give or take, around the world. (I'm not saying the NHS doesn't have problems - clearly it does)" You’re right actually I’m wrong. Because regardless of the healthcare provider these inequalities persist because of the people providing it and wider systemic isms. | |||
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"The NHS isn't the problem. People and culture are the problem. These inequalities are reproduced, give or take, around the world. (I'm not saying the NHS doesn't have problems - clearly it does) You’re right actually I’m wrong. Because regardless of the healthcare provider these inequalities persist because of the people providing it and wider systemic isms. " It’s just terrifying. I think so many take for granted being kept safe and listened to by healthcare professionals | |||
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"The NHS isn't the problem. People and culture are the problem. These inequalities are reproduced, give or take, around the world. (I'm not saying the NHS doesn't have problems - clearly it does) You’re right actually I’m wrong. Because regardless of the healthcare provider these inequalities persist because of the people providing it and wider systemic isms. It’s just terrifying. I think so many take for granted being kept safe and listened to by healthcare professionals" It is. And you take it for granted until you realise you never really had it in the first place. Or that it was conditional. Or your surviving relatives realise that you shouldn't have trusted health professionals, I suppose. | |||
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"I think it’s fair to say the NHS suffers from institutional racism just as much as every other part of our society does. The key part there is ‘suffers from’. The NHS doesn’t cause it. And yeah, ‘ethnic bias’ seems to be a new way of saying institutional racism. Maybe an unintentionally ironic attempt to be more inclusive when describing how you exclude people." Yeah you’re right. How do we create positive change is my question I guess that would follow | |||
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I think my question that follows that is- how do we ensure that people experiencing homelessness aren’t discriminated on even within the pathways that we create? Training? Is training enough? | |||
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"I think it’s fair to say the NHS suffers from institutional racism just as much as every other part of our society does. The key part there is ‘suffers from’. The NHS doesn’t cause it. And yeah, ‘ethnic bias’ seems to be a new way of saying institutional racism. Maybe an unintentionally ironic attempt to be more inclusive when describing how you exclude people. Yeah you’re right. How do we create positive change is my question I guess that would follow" My question hinges on whether people are prepared to face the consequence of our behaviour and that it is unacceptable and causing harm to others. It’s personally wounding to realise YOU are the problem and I worry people just can’t tolerate the accusation (and facts). | |||
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"The NHS isn't the problem. People and culture are the problem. These inequalities are reproduced, give or take, around the world. (I'm not saying the NHS doesn't have problems - clearly it does) You’re right actually I’m wrong. Because regardless of the healthcare provider these inequalities persist because of the people providing it and wider systemic isms. It’s just terrifying. I think so many take for granted being kept safe and listened to by healthcare professionals It is. And you take it for granted until you realise you never really had it in the first place. Or that it was conditional. Or your surviving relatives realise that you shouldn't have trusted health professionals, I suppose." Sad times | |||
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"Thanks for sharing Estella
I think my question that follows that is- how do we ensure that people experiencing homelessness aren’t discriminated on even within the pathways that we create? Training? Is training enough?"Posed my query that precedes this one. Will keep thinking. | |||
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"I think it’s fair to say the NHS suffers from institutional racism just as much as every other part of our society does. The key part there is ‘suffers from’. The NHS doesn’t cause it. And yeah, ‘ethnic bias’ seems to be a new way of saying institutional racism. Maybe an unintentionally ironic attempt to be more inclusive when describing how you exclude people. Yeah you’re right. How do we create positive change is my question I guess that would follow My question hinges on whether people are prepared to face the consequence of our behaviour and that it is unacceptable and causing harm to others. It’s personally wounding to realise YOU are the problem and I worry people just can’t tolerate the accusation (and facts). " Fab certainly makes me feel like you’re 100% correct. | |||
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"The NHS isn't the problem. People and culture are the problem. These inequalities are reproduced, give or take, around the world. (I'm not saying the NHS doesn't have problems - clearly it does) You’re right actually I’m wrong. Because regardless of the healthcare provider these inequalities persist because of the people providing it and wider systemic isms. It’s just terrifying. I think so many take for granted being kept safe and listened to by healthcare professionals It is. And you take it for granted until you realise you never really had it in the first place. Or that it was conditional. Or your surviving relatives realise that you shouldn't have trusted health professionals, I suppose. Sad times" The case I'm closest to - I sent you a message - what I'd change about that is telling the person with the most institutional power and privilege about the situation and have them create havoc/ sue/ whatever. | |||
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"I think it’s fair to say the NHS suffers from institutional racism just as much as every other part of our society does. The key part there is ‘suffers from’. The NHS doesn’t cause it. And yeah, ‘ethnic bias’ seems to be a new way of saying institutional racism. Maybe an unintentionally ironic attempt to be more inclusive when describing how you exclude people. Yeah you’re right. How do we create positive change is my question I guess that would follow My question hinges on whether people are prepared to face the consequence of our behaviour and that it is unacceptable and causing harm to others. It’s personally wounding to realise YOU are the problem and I worry people just can’t tolerate the accusation (and facts). Fab certainly makes me feel like you’re 100% correct. " As you’re aware, I’ve had personal experience of an accusation that I’ve struggled with tolerating. I hasten to point out it wasn’t racism, but that doesn’t mean I haven’t been racist. | |||
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"I think it’s fair to say the NHS suffers from institutional racism just as much as every other part of our society does. The key part there is ‘suffers from’. The NHS doesn’t cause it. And yeah, ‘ethnic bias’ seems to be a new way of saying institutional racism. Maybe an unintentionally ironic attempt to be more inclusive when describing how you exclude people. Yeah you’re right. How do we create positive change is my question I guess that would follow My question hinges on whether people are prepared to face the consequence of our behaviour and that it is unacceptable and causing harm to others. It’s personally wounding to realise YOU are the problem and I worry people just can’t tolerate the accusation (and facts). " Yes. It's way easier to blame "difficult patients" than to realise you're part of a culture that diminishes some people's needs and attempts to get the help they need. | |||
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"Just read the article op and I noted that some observations weren’t being made because she was being difficult. I guess we’ll never know if those observations would have been made if she was from a different ethnic background Junior doctors were on strike and low staffing levels didn’t help either. Tragic outcome for mother and baby regardless of race, colour or religion Hope some good comes out of this tragic situation and I don’t know enough to comment if she wasn’t treated because of her colour OR other reasons I hope it wasn’t for the colour of her skin as there’s enough evil in the world currently RIP both" But why was she being difficult? I mean in my experience with people experiencing homelessness this is an often quoted excuse - but people have experienced trauma and trauma informed care means looking beyond presenting behaviour to really understand what someone is communicating (fear etc) and working to ensure care is still exemplary however hard or challenging it may be to discharge. | |||
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"My mum was in a ward with a black woman who had sickle cell anaemia once, the poor woman was in a lot of discomfort. Another patient told my mum they 'they ' make too much fuss. Needless to say my mum put her right but it exists. The staff were not of the same opinion thank goodness" I wish more people knew about sickle cell | |||
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"I've read about this couple of years ago, and I've witnessed it myself. It's disgusting and there needs to be change. " Change takes work though. There needs to be the political will to fund and enable it. And I don’t see any political will. | |||
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"Anyway it made me think, as wonderful our NHS is, is it fit for purpose? What are the solutions do you think to address health inequalities like these? " Maybe we should elect a more progressive government. Or adopt proportional representation and have a government that more accurately reflects its population. | |||
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"The NHS isn't the problem. People and culture are the problem. These inequalities are reproduced, give or take, around the world. (I'm not saying the NHS doesn't have problems - clearly it does)" Yes, it is important to remember that it is individuals (not corporations) who decide to treat one person differently to another... most organisations actually have policies & processes that are "supposed" to stop it happening. I personally find it unbelievable that there are still so many who hold these antiquated views. 
Cal | |||
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"The NHS isn't the problem. People and culture are the problem. These inequalities are reproduced, give or take, around the world. (I'm not saying the NHS doesn't have problems - clearly it does) Yes, it is important to remember that it is individuals (not corporations) who decide to treat one person differently to another... most organisations actually have policies & processes that are "supposed" to stop it happening. I personally find it unbelievable that there are still so many who hold these antiquated views.
Cal"I imagine that most overtly discriminatory views are not written into institutional policy, because lawyers. Which means that it's either not super obvious or it's a microculture/ individual thing. | |||
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"I've read about this couple of years ago, and I've witnessed it myself. It's disgusting and there needs to be change. Change takes work though. There needs to be the political will to fund and enable it. And I don’t see any political will." I agree | |||
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"How many people here are willing to admit that they’ve done something or said or thought something that is racist? Not overtly but something that’s rooted in societal institutionalised racism?" ***EDITED TO ADD A MISSING WORD *** As a very young child, I remember seeing on the news about riots in Soweto in South Africa under Apartheid. I didn’t understand what was going on, I just saw gangs of black people acting disturbingly. I told my Dad that I didn’t like these bad people, and he told me that they weren’t bad people, that the police were very cruel to them. So I said about the protesters, “well they should just ignore them and get on with their own business” which was doubtless a line I’d been told when I complained about school bullies. Now I’m an adult I remind myself of this - my childish ignorance unwittingly supported systemic racism because I didn’t know/understand what was happening. Almost all racism comes from a place of ignorance. Learning to be anti racist is a life long journey, but it is a pathway every person and organisation can choose to take. | |||
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"How many people here are willing to admit that they’ve done something or said or thought something that is racist? Not overtly but something that’s rooted in societal institutionalised racism? ***EDITED TO ADD A MISSING WORD *** As a very young child, I remember seeing on the news about riots in Soweto in South Africa under Apartheid. I didn’t understand what was going on, I just saw gangs of black people acting disturbingly. I told my Dad that I didn’t like these bad people, and he told me that they weren’t bad people, that the police were very cruel to them. So I said about the protesters, “well they should just ignore them and get on with their own business” which was doubtless a line I’d been told when I complained about school bullies. Now I’m an adult I remind myself of this - my childish ignorance unwittingly supported systemic racism because I didn’t know/understand what was happening. Almost all racism comes from a place of ignorance. Learning to be anti racist is a life long journey, but it is a pathway every person and organisation can choose to take." | |||
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"How many people here are willing to admit that they’ve done something or said or thought something that is racist? Not overtly but something that’s rooted in societal institutionalised racism?" Yes, certainly. There's deeply rooted anti Chinese sentiment in Australia. By the time I came around, it was mostly in children's rhymes. Which I wouldn't repeat. Likely in other ways as well, particularly around 9/11, or the complicated relationship with indigenous Australians. I'm happy to learn so I can do better | |||
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"Spend more money on research that doesn’t use Caucasian male bodies as the default test subject. Take women’s pain seriously."
I don't know how feasible it is, but (related to my own experience, not necessarily the OP) I'd like to see a separation, or at least a different mindset, around gynaecology and obstetrics. Sometimes the number one priority in OBGYN shouldn't be (potential or actual) baby, it should be someone who was once a baby girl and whose parts are fucking up. | |||
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"Spend more money on research that doesn’t use Caucasian male bodies as the default test subject. Take women’s pain seriously." I totally agree with the sentiment. But in this case she was in a women's hospital. And was pregnant. So I'm not sure how much the women side of this played a part. But reads odd she was dismissed as difficult because of the spin she was in. Surely (regardless of sex) that level of pain rings alarm bells ? | |||
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"Just read that a Black pregnant woman died in hospital because of ‘Ethnic bias’ (strange way to spell racism but whatever ) and other than feeling anger reading the articles online, I also got thinking about the other health inequalities that exist.
The theme for LGBTQ+ history month is health. And the NHS website says that ‘The evidence that LGBT+ people have disproportionately worse health outcomes and experiences of healthcare is both compelling and consistent.’
Anyway it made me think, as wonderful our NHS is, is it fit for purpose? What are the solutions do you think to address health inequalities like these? "Medicine is inherently racist, try finding any textbooks with pictures of skin cancer on Black or Asian people. Research what the algorithms that ‘correct’ lung capacity in non-white people are based on. Or Google Mrs Bibi syndrome. Please note that I don’t mean doctors are necessarily racist, I mean some of the things they are taught are based on incorrect, racist assumptions. The NHS itself has a massive racism problem, often masked by the general bullying problem that is an even more widespread issue. | |||
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"Spend more money on research that doesn’t use Caucasian male bodies as the default test subject. Take women’s pain seriously.I totally agree with the sentiment. But in this case she was in a women's hospital. And was pregnant. So I'm not sure how much the women side of this played a part. But reads odd she was dismissed as difficult because of the spin she was in. Surely (regardless of sex) that level of pain rings alarm bells ? " Hi, I'm a woman who should have died because a gynaecologist decided I was overreacting and I wasn't in that much pain. The woman part is not irrelevant at all. Not even when dealing with gynaecology (can't speak to obstetrics). | |||
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"Spend more money on research that doesn’t use Caucasian male bodies as the default test subject. Take women’s pain seriously.I totally agree with the sentiment. But in this case she was in a women's hospital. And was pregnant. So I'm not sure how much the women side of this played a part. But reads odd she was dismissed as difficult because of the spin she was in. Surely (regardless of sex) that level of pain rings alarm bells ? " There are widely held assumptions, in medicine, that non white people exaggerate their levels of pain, or ‘experience pain differently’, despite their being absolutely no evidence for it. | |||
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"Spend more money on research that doesn’t use Caucasian male bodies as the default test subject. Take women’s pain seriously.I totally agree with the sentiment. But in this case she was in a women's hospital. And was pregnant. So I'm not sure how much the women side of this played a part. But reads odd she was dismissed as difficult because of the spin she was in. Surely (regardless of sex) that level of pain rings alarm bells ? There are widely held assumptions, in medicine, that non white people exaggerate their levels of pain, or ‘experience pain differently’, despite their being absolutely no evidence for it." And this too. | |||
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"How many healthcare workers are from ethnic cultures? i work in hospitals and it seems a great many, so who looked after this unfortunate lady? Most consultants i speak to seem to be of asian heritage( and dam good doctors too)" It depends where in the country you are. Hospitals generally have non-white staff percentages higher than the local population but that often doesn’t take much outside big cities. Also, consultants are often incredibly busy and have very little time to spend with patients, they certainly wouldn’t have time to make sure obs were being taken etc. that’s a nurse, or healthcare assistant job. It’s entirely possible to be admitted to hospital as an emergency, be treated, and discharged home, without seeing a consultant. | |||
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""The theme for LGBTQ+ history month is health. And the NHS website says that ‘The evidence that LGBT+ people have disproportionately worse health outcomes and experiences of healthcare is both compelling and consistent." Healthcare can be a minefield for LGBTQ+ people. For example, cervical smear invitations only go to people registered as female with a GP surgery, meaning that trans men and/or non-binary people who are not registered as female but do have a cervix are not automatically on the registers. Which is another massive barrier to have a check which for many would be difficult thing to request from their GP. " 
Getting basic,respectful healthcare as a trans person can be incredibly difficult and hard work with having to self advocate most of the time. | |||
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"Spend more money on research that doesn’t use Caucasian male bodies as the default test subject. Take women’s pain seriously.I totally agree with the sentiment. But in this case she was in a women's hospital. And was pregnant. So I'm not sure how much the women side of this played a part. But reads odd she was dismissed as difficult because of the spin she was in. Surely (regardless of sex) that level of pain rings alarm bells ? " The Women's Hospital is staffed by plenty of non female staff. Also female medical professionals can and do often dismiss the pain women report. This is because they have been trained with the same material as everyone else and largely by male people (because they are the majority). Internalised misogyny, basically. There's a school of thought in medicine that there are no sensory nerve endings in the cervix, so women should be able to tolerate bits of it being snipped off or hands shoved up it, all without a sausage of anaesthetic. Anyone who ever got boinked in the cervix by a gentleman's sausage can tell you it fucking well hurts (including female doctors, presumably?!) But because the protocol in hospitals is to do hysteroscopy and biopsies and suchlike without anaesthetic, it's just perpetuated as acceptable practice. | |||
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"Spend more money on research that doesn’t use Caucasian male bodies as the default test subject. Take women’s pain seriously." Take Black women’s pain seriously. | |||
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"Spend more money on research that doesn’t use Caucasian male bodies as the default test subject. Take women’s pain seriously.
I don't know how feasible it is, but (related to my own experience, not necessarily the OP) I'd like to see a separation, or at least a different mindset, around gynaecology and obstetrics. Sometimes the number one priority in OBGYN shouldn't be (potential or actual) baby, it should be someone who was once a baby girl and whose parts are fucking up. "Generally consultants specialise in either obstetrics or gynaecology. In gynaecology priority is not a baby, but female parts! | |||
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"Spend more money on research that doesn’t use Caucasian male bodies as the default test subject. Take women’s pain seriously.
I don't know how feasible it is, but (related to my own experience, not necessarily the OP) I'd like to see a separation, or at least a different mindset, around gynaecology and obstetrics. Sometimes the number one priority in OBGYN shouldn't be (potential or actual) baby, it should be someone who was once a baby girl and whose parts are fucking up.
Generally consultants specialise in either obstetrics or gynaecology. In gynaecology priority is not a baby, but female parts! "A lot of gynaecology stuff involves avoiding doing anything to preserve a woman's fertility, even if she states clearly that she does not want children ever and leaving her without treatment equals pain and suffering. | |||
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"Should be careful what you read and watch the media is like the hand that shakes the jar of red and black ants making them fight each other " If not due to racism, why do Black and Asian women have significantly higher risk of negative outcomes during pregnancy and birth, than white women? These are well accepted facts and plenty of reports have concluded that women from non white ethnic groups are disbelieved and treated differently, compared to white women (and white women can often be disbelived too, just with fewer worse outcomes). | |||
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" But reads odd she was dismissed as difficult because of the spin she was in. Surely (regardless of sex) that level of pain rings alarm bells ? " It is well know that women do not receive appropriate pain relief in almost all situations because their pain is not believed. It is an institutional attitude problem in the medical profession. Studies have literally been done on this and they have proven that women’s pain is not taken as seriously as men’s pain. On a personal basis I had to visit my GP three times, ended up in A&E TWICE partially paralyzed, and had a private MRI scan with a BUPA consultant before my GP would believe me that I had neck pain and required pain killers (I have a chronic bulging disk that puts pressure on the nerves some days). The pain was bad enough that I would scream when going over speed bumps in the car. | |||
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"Should be careful what you read and watch the media is like the hand that shakes the jar of red and black ants making them fight each other " How do you explain the FACT that black women are four times more likely to die during pregnancy or childbirth compared to white women? Asian women also have a much higher mortality risk. | |||
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"Spend more money on research that doesn’t use Caucasian male bodies as the default test subject. Take women’s pain seriously.
I don't know how feasible it is, but (related to my own experience, not necessarily the OP) I'd like to see a separation, or at least a different mindset, around gynaecology and obstetrics. Sometimes the number one priority in OBGYN shouldn't be (potential or actual) baby, it should be someone who was once a baby girl and whose parts are fucking up.
Generally consultants specialise in either obstetrics or gynaecology. In gynaecology priority is not a baby, but female parts! "I'm speaking from experience. And the reason why I framed myself as "someone who was once a baby girl" is because the gynaecologists I saw were obsessed with a baby they were convinced I might one day have, not the agony I was in. Maybe if I'd reminded them that I was once a baby? maybe shown them pictures? maybe they might have given a shit about me, not the fictional baby they wanted me to have. And Black women have it worse. as the statistics clearly show. | |||
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""The theme for LGBTQ+ history month is health. And the NHS website says that ‘The evidence that LGBT+ people have disproportionately worse health outcomes and experiences of healthcare is both compelling and consistent." Healthcare can be a minefield for LGBTQ+ people. For example, cervical smear invitations only go to people registered as female with a GP surgery, meaning that trans men and/or non-binary people who are not registered as female but do have a cervix are not automatically on the registers. Which is another massive barrier to have a check which for many would be difficult thing to request from their GP.
Getting basic,respectful healthcare as a trans person can be incredibly difficult and hard work with having to self advocate most of the time. "I just can't imagine the difficulty in obtaining the correct medical care for Trans people. I only recently became aware of the issues surrounding cervical screening, which to me is surely something that could be easily sorted, if there was a will. And self advocating is so difficult (I've experienced it a bit it was hard but was relatively short term), it must be so draining on a permanent basis. | |||
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" But reads odd she was dismissed as difficult because of the spin she was in. Surely (regardless of sex) that level of pain rings alarm bells ? It is well know that women do not receive appropriate pain relief in almost all situations because their pain is not believed. It is an institutional attitude problem in the medical profession. Studies have literally been done on this and they have proven that women’s pain is not taken as seriously as men’s pain. On a personal basis I had to visit my GP three times, ended up in A&E TWICE partially paralyzed, and had a private MRI scan with a BUPA consultant before my GP would believe me that I had neck pain and required pain killers (I have a chronic bulging disk that puts pressure on the nerves some days). The pain was bad enough that I would scream when going over speed bumps in the car."
I'm not denying the difference in approach. And have seen it with my OHs. And from both female as well as male GOs.
It was just this one case was a women's hospital which I thought may have less bias within it. Or more ways of checking gender bias.
(The report did not suggest gender was an issue here although they used the wrong pain scale. But again, that would make me think gender bias in a multi gender hospital more than a women's)
Im also curious how race played a part in this case. I'm not denying it (and agree bias is a thing) but it's not clear how (and if that's not clear, how do we improve). I've even looked at the Trust minutes and it's not clear.
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The unco*scious bias about how black people do or don’t feel pain remains a factor that impacts peoples response in the moment and that remains shocking in 2024.
Then there’s the fact that black women are more likely to have co-morbidities that make their pregnancies more challenging and difficult to manage by definition increasing the possibility of clotting, postpartum hemorrhage and other such issues.
That’s where the challenge of equity vs equality comes in. Equality is everyone having access to (what should be) safe maternity care. Equity is realising this demographic have worse clinical outcomes and ensuring that their pre and post natal care packages reflect what we know. That’s where we need to do further work.
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"I’ll go back and read the whole thread after I’ve said my initial bit….. Firstly I work in the NHS do some of my views may be biased. Secondly my sister has had had incredible care with the delivery of each of her children in London. The most recent nation CQC programme of inspections across maternity services showed that over 2/3 are now rated inadequate or requires improvement (including the Trust I work at). There are clear issues with clinical quality all across the country that need addressing. It is well known that the experience of black women in maternity services is far worse than other demographics by a long way and it’s multifaceted. Like I did see in the first few posts, the isms play a big part. I will say though that imo whilst a it can’t all be attributed to white people. The NHS does employ large numbers of ethnic staff in clinical positions, and often a number of those will come from cultures that do not look favourably on black people. Additionally you also have black staff who tell other black patients that they shouldn’t make so much noise. You’re a big African person woman, what are you making so much noise for
The unco*scious bias about how black people do or don’t feel pain remains a factor that impacts peoples response in the moment and that remains shocking in 2024.
Then there’s the fact that black women are more likely to have co-morbidities that make their pregnancies more challenging and difficult to manage by definition increasing the possibility of clotting, postpartum hemorrhage and other such issues.
That’s where the challenge of equity vs equality comes in. Equality is everyone having access to (what should be) safe maternity care. Equity is realising this demographic have worse clinical outcomes and ensuring that their pre and post natal care packages reflect what we know. That’s where we need to do further work.
I’ll shut up for a bit "Well said. | |||
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"I’ll go back and read the whole thread after I’ve said my initial bit….. Firstly I work in the NHS do some of my views may be biased. Secondly my sister has had had incredible care with the delivery of each of her children in London. The most recent nation CQC programme of inspections across maternity services showed that over 2/3 are now rated inadequate or requires improvement (including the Trust I work at). There are clear issues with clinical quality all across the country that need addressing. It is well known that the experience of black women in maternity services is far worse than other demographics by a long way and it’s multifaceted. Like I did see in the first few posts, the isms play a big part. I will say though that imo whilst a it can’t all be attributed to white people. The NHS does employ large numbers of ethnic staff in clinical positions, and often a number of those will come from cultures that do not look favourably on black people. Additionally you also have black staff who tell other black patients that they shouldn’t make so much noise. You’re a big African person woman, what are you making so much noise for
The unco*scious bias about how black people do or don’t feel pain remains a factor that impacts peoples response in the moment and that remains shocking in 2024.
Then there’s the fact that black women are more likely to have co-morbidities that make their pregnancies more challenging and difficult to manage by definition increasing the possibility of clotting, postpartum hemorrhage and other such issues.
That’s where the challenge of equity vs equality comes in. Equality is everyone having access to (what should be) safe maternity care. Equity is realising this demographic have worse clinical outcomes and ensuring that their pre and post natal care packages reflect what we know. That’s where we need to do further work.
I’ll shut up for a bit " | |||
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"I’ll go back and read the whole thread after I’ve said my initial bit….. Firstly I work in the NHS do some of my views may be biased. Secondly my sister has had had incredible care with the delivery of each of her children in London. The most recent nation CQC programme of inspections across maternity services showed that over 2/3 are now rated inadequate or requires improvement (including the Trust I work at). There are clear issues with clinical quality all across the country that need addressing. It is well known that the experience of black women in maternity services is far worse than other demographics by a long way and it’s multifaceted. Like I did see in the first few posts, the isms play a big part. I will say though that imo whilst a it can’t all be attributed to white people. The NHS does employ large numbers of ethnic staff in clinical positions, and often a number of those will come from cultures that do not look favourably on black people. Additionally you also have black staff who tell other black patients that they shouldn’t make so much noise. You’re a big African person woman, what are you making so much noise for
The unco*scious bias about how black people do or don’t feel pain remains a factor that impacts peoples response in the moment and that remains shocking in 2024.
Then there’s the fact that black women are more likely to have co-morbidities that make their pregnancies more challenging and difficult to manage by definition increasing the possibility of clotting, postpartum hemorrhage and other such issues.
That’s where the challenge of equity vs equality comes in. Equality is everyone having access to (what should be) safe maternity care. Equity is realising this demographic have worse clinical outcomes and ensuring that their pre and post natal care packages reflect what we know. That’s where we need to do further work.
I’ll shut up for a bit "please don't shut up! 100pc we need to focus on equities. Also understanding. Your point on co morbidities. How much of that drives the difference in outcomes versus other biases and differences? (Going out on a limb, I'm going to guess that morbidity is also linked to sociostatus too) | |||
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"The impact of the junior doctors' strike" and low staffing were among factors that delayed recognising how ill she was hospital staff had not taken some observations because the patient was "being difficult". Staff are not there to be abused. Nhs bame workforce is 25% and considering the uk is 80% white, I wouldn't say it was racist organisation. Maybe being less hostile and accept help would go along way, not quite sure how you can take someone's obs if you are kicking off and normally the rule is the quiet ones in an accident are the ones to be concerned about then the ones making lots of noise - so maybe the same logic was there. I had read many needless deaths due to strikes, lack of beds- it doesn't help with bed blocking and MH crisis. Also reading a report about black women dying after pregnancy is 3 x more than white women was alarming, it doesn't seem to be down to the nhs but 60% had preexisting conditions like heart disease, epilepsy etc. Maybe other factors such as age / amount of children are also a problem. " You think because 25% of the workforce is non-white that means the NHS can’t be racist? That’s real ‘I can’t be sexist because my mum is a woman’ territory. Over 30% of non white NHS staff reported experiencing racism, and/or bullying. Only 10% of senior NHS positions are held by non white staff, and white people are over 2/3 more likely to be hired than non white people. The NHS even admits it has a problem, and needs to do more. | |||
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"I guess if you accept uk is a fairly racist country - Institutions & people and NHS is such a scarce resource it’s bound to happen.I remember reading similar about how COVID disproportionately affected black and ethnic minorities, for a whole range of reasons, many preventable in an equal society. Unless a government organises itself & creates Acts to achieve equality it’s never gonna happen " I think the UK is one of the most liberal, tolerant countries in the world. So no i don't accept its a 'fairly racist country'. Mr | |||
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"I guess if you accept uk is a fairly racist country - Institutions & people and NHS is such a scarce resource it’s bound to happen.I remember reading similar about how COVID disproportionately affected black and ethnic minorities, for a whole range of reasons, many preventable in an equal society. Unless a government organises itself & creates Acts to achieve equality it’s never gonna happen I think the UK is one of the most liberal, tolerant countries in the world. So no i don't accept its a 'fairly racist country'. Mr"
Truth hurts baby | |||
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You’re such an idol. Keep fighting the good fight bro | |||
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"I guess if you accept uk is a fairly racist country - Institutions & people and NHS is such a scarce resource it’s bound to happen.I remember reading similar about how COVID disproportionately affected black and ethnic minorities, for a whole range of reasons, many preventable in an equal society. Unless a government organises itself & creates Acts to achieve equality it’s never gonna happen I think the UK is one of the most liberal, tolerant countries in the world. So no i don't accept its a 'fairly racist country'. Mr
Truth hurts baby"There's a bit of cope going on, eh? | |||
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"I guess if you accept uk is a fairly racist country - Institutions & people and NHS is such a scarce resource it’s bound to happen.I remember reading similar about how COVID disproportionately affected black and ethnic minorities, for a whole range of reasons, many preventable in an equal society. Unless a government organises itself & creates Acts to achieve equality it’s never gonna happen I think the UK is one of the most liberal, tolerant countries in the world. So no i don't accept its a 'fairly racist country'. Mr
Truth hurts baby"It seems to with some yes, thats why the believe its a racist country baby | |||
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"I guess if you accept uk is a fairly racist country - Institutions & people and NHS is such a scarce resource it’s bound to happen.I remember reading similar about how COVID disproportionately affected black and ethnic minorities, for a whole range of reasons, many preventable in an equal society. Unless a government organises itself & creates Acts to achieve equality it’s never gonna happen I think the UK is one of the most liberal, tolerant countries in the world. So no i don't accept its a 'fairly racist country'. Mr
Truth hurts baby
There's a bit of cope going on, eh?"Resisting the urge to just say ‘cry more’ and keep it serious | |||
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"I guess if you accept uk is a fairly racist country - Institutions & people and NHS is such a scarce resource it’s bound to happen.I remember reading similar about how COVID disproportionately affected black and ethnic minorities, for a whole range of reasons, many preventable in an equal society. Unless a government organises itself & creates Acts to achieve equality it’s never gonna happen I think the UK is one of the most liberal, tolerant countries in the world. So no i don't accept its a 'fairly racist country'. Mr
Truth hurts baby
It seems to with some yes, thats why the believe its a racist country baby "Noah fence but how would YOU know? | |||
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"I’ll go back and read the whole thread after I’ve said my initial bit….. Firstly I work in the NHS do some of my views may be biased. Secondly my sister has had had incredible care with the delivery of each of her children in London. The most recent nation CQC programme of inspections across maternity services showed that over 2/3 are now rated inadequate or requires improvement (including the Trust I work at). There are clear issues with clinical quality all across the country that need addressing. It is well known that the experience of black women in maternity services is far worse than other demographics by a long way and it’s multifaceted. Like I did see in the first few posts, the isms play a big part. I will say though that imo whilst a it can’t all be attributed to white people. The NHS does employ large numbers of ethnic staff in clinical positions, and often a number of those will come from cultures that do not look favourably on black people. Additionally you also have black staff who tell other black patients that they shouldn’t make so much noise. You’re a big African person woman, what are you making so much noise for
The unco*scious bias about how black people do or don’t feel pain remains a factor that impacts peoples response in the moment and that remains shocking in 2024.
Then there’s the fact that black women are more likely to have co-morbidities that make their pregnancies more challenging and difficult to manage by definition increasing the possibility of clotting, postpartum hemorrhage and other such issues.
That’s where the challenge of equity vs equality comes in. Equality is everyone having access to (what should be) safe maternity care. Equity is realising this demographic have worse clinical outcomes and ensuring that their pre and post natal care packages reflect what we know. That’s where we need to do further work.
I’ll shut up for a bit please don't shut up!
100pc we need to focus on equities. Also understanding.
Your point on co morbidities. How much of that drives the difference in outcomes versus other biases and differences? (Going out on a limb, I'm going to guess that morbidity is also linked to sociostatus too)
"Co-morbidity is a huge driver I’ll say that much IMO as often the care needs of those individuals can be incredibly complex. However once you recognise this, it’s the next step here we see a disparity between how people are treated. You have to understand clinically that who you are dealing with a person who higher complexities and risk attached to their care and ensure that your clinical assessment, empathy, language and decision to seek a second opinion (where clinically appropriate) are all top notch. That’s naturally very difficult to do in busy pressured clinical environment but essential if you are going to see optimal clinical outcomes. | |||
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"I guess if you accept uk is a fairly racist country - Institutions & people and NHS is such a scarce resource it’s bound to happen.I remember reading similar about how COVID disproportionately affected black and ethnic minorities, for a whole range of reasons, many preventable in an equal society. Unless a government organises itself & creates Acts to achieve equality it’s never gonna happen " We have an act designed to achieve equality. It’s called The Equality Act (2010). Legislation sadly does not mean that we have equality. We also have to root out the systemic inequalities in the system, and in healthcare that starts with things like funding research into inequalities. | |||
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"I guess if you accept uk is a fairly racist country - Institutions & people and NHS is such a scarce resource it’s bound to happen.I remember reading similar about how COVID disproportionately affected black and ethnic minorities, for a whole range of reasons, many preventable in an equal society. Unless a government organises itself & creates Acts to achieve equality it’s never gonna happen I think the UK is one of the most liberal, tolerant countries in the world. So no i don't accept its a 'fairly racist country'. Mr
Truth hurts baby
It seems to with some yes, thats why the believe its a racist country baby
Noah fence but how would YOU know? "Very racist of you to assume my race | |||
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"I guess if you accept uk is a fairly racist country - Institutions & people and NHS is such a scarce resource it’s bound to happen.I remember reading similar about how COVID disproportionately affected black and ethnic minorities, for a whole range of reasons, many preventable in an equal society. Unless a government organises itself & creates Acts to achieve equality it’s never gonna happen I think the UK is one of the most liberal, tolerant countries in the world. So no i don't accept its a 'fairly racist country'. Mr" Well we can see how white people in the wealthy county of Cheshire with it’s 95% white population would know all about racism. | |||
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"I guess if you accept uk is a fairly racist country - Institutions & people and NHS is such a scarce resource it’s bound to happen.I remember reading similar about how COVID disproportionately affected black and ethnic minorities, for a whole range of reasons, many preventable in an equal society. Unless a government organises itself & creates Acts to achieve equality it’s never gonna happen I think the UK is one of the most liberal, tolerant countries in the world. So no i don't accept its a 'fairly racist country'. Mr
Truth hurts baby
It seems to with some yes, thats why the believe its a racist country baby
Noah fence but how would YOU know?
Very racist of you to assume my race "So not only do you not know what racism is, you think me ASKING you to clarify your understanding and experience of this is unreasonable. 
Makes me think | |||
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"Who has ‘you’re the real racist’ on their bingo card? " Me! Me! | |||
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"Who has ‘you’re the real racist’ on their bingo card? " always | |||
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"I guess if you accept uk is a fairly racist country - Institutions & people and NHS is such a scarce resource it’s bound to happen.I remember reading similar about how COVID disproportionately affected black and ethnic minorities, for a whole range of reasons, many preventable in an equal society. Unless a government organises itself & creates Acts to achieve equality it’s never gonna happen I think the UK is one of the most liberal, tolerant countries in the world. So no i don't accept its a 'fairly racist country'. Mr
Truth hurts baby
It seems to with some yes, thats why the believe its a racist country baby
Noah fence but how would YOU know?
Very racist of you to assume my race "Have you ever thought, said or done something that might be racist? Genuinely interested to know. | |||
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"I guess if you accept uk is a fairly racist country - Institutions & people and NHS is such a scarce resource it’s bound to happen.I remember reading similar about how COVID disproportionately affected black and ethnic minorities, for a whole range of reasons, many preventable in an equal society. Unless a government organises itself & creates Acts to achieve equality it’s never gonna happen I think the UK is one of the most liberal, tolerant countries in the world. So no i don't accept its a 'fairly racist country'. Mr
Truth hurts baby
It seems to with some yes, thats why the believe its a racist country baby
Noah fence but how would YOU know?
Very racist of you to assume my race
So not only do you not know what racism is, you think me ASKING you to clarify your understanding and experience of this is unreasonable.
Makes me think"Maybe you should surround yourself with more positive influential people who see themselves as more than something then they are being defined by. Too many Eeyores blaming their self hate on others. Embrace it baby.  | |||
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"I guess if you accept uk is a fairly racist country - Institutions & people and NHS is such a scarce resource it’s bound to happen.I remember reading similar about how COVID disproportionately affected black and ethnic minorities, for a whole range of reasons, many preventable in an equal society. Unless a government organises itself & creates Acts to achieve equality it’s never gonna happen I think the UK is one of the most liberal, tolerant countries in the world. So no i don't accept its a 'fairly racist country'. Mr
Truth hurts baby
It seems to with some yes, thats why the believe its a racist country baby
Noah fence but how would YOU know?
Very racist of you to assume my race
So not only do you not know what racism is, you think me ASKING you to clarify your understanding and experience of this is unreasonable.
Makes me think
Maybe you should surround yourself with more positive influential people who see themselves as more than something then they are being defined by. Too many Eeyores blaming their self hate on others. Embrace it baby. "I and all my dargs love being Black. Sorry to disappoint you. Ain’t no self hate here. Black is beautiful. Don’t mean that racism doesn’t exist and impact our lives. I’m sorry that my intelligence and awareness offends you. I guess the eugenicists were wrong about us. | |||
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"I also had ‘you hate yourself’ and ‘stop blaming the racism’ on my bingo card so I’ve pretty much cleaned up today" Next round is on you, hey? | |||
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"I also had ‘you hate yourself’ and ‘stop blaming the racism’ on my bingo card so I’ve pretty much cleaned up today Next round is on you, hey?" | |||
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"The impact of the junior doctors' strike" and low staffing were among factors that delayed recognising how ill she was hospital staff had not taken some observations because the patient was "being difficult". Staff are not there to be abused. Nhs bame workforce is 25% and considering the uk is 80% white, I wouldn't say it was racist organisation. Maybe being less hostile and accept help would go along way, not quite sure how you can take someone's obs if you are kicking off and normally the rule is the quiet ones in an accident are the ones to be concerned about then the ones making lots of noise - so maybe the same logic was there. I had read many needless deaths due to strikes, lack of beds- it doesn't help with bed blocking and MH crisis. Also reading a report about black women dying after pregnancy is 3 x more than white women was alarming, it doesn't seem to be down to the nhs but 60% had preexisting conditions like heart disease, epilepsy etc. Maybe other factors such as age / amount of children are also a problem. You think because 25% of the workforce is non-white that means the NHS can’t be racist? That’s real ‘I can’t be sexist because my mum is a woman’ territory. Over 30% of non white NHS staff reported experiencing racism, and/or bullying. Only 10% of senior NHS positions are held by non white staff, and white people are over 2/3 more likely to be hired than non white people. The NHS even admits it has a problem, and needs to do more." To follow on from this a little bit, a few points from me: Despite a nationally agreed pay and banding structure, the NHS still has a gender pay gap. Add to that that as an organisation the NHS is 77% female and make of that what you will
The NHS does have a high number of BME staff. Typically a lot of these are in lower paid roles, and typically there is a lot of turnover in these roles.
Additionally a lot of staff are international recruits into clincial roles as nurses/midwives or as medical staff as doctors and consultants.
The NHS Staff Survey results clearly illustrate a decline in the experience of staff with protected characteristics, particularly in reference to race/ethnicity and disability.
NHS Trusts are required to report their Workforce Race Equality Standard (WRES) and Workforce Disability Equality Standard (WDES) statistics, and however you try and chop it up it makes for harrowing reading.
Staff with a visible or non visible disability or from a BME background are more likely to suffer bullying and harassment and be subjected to formal disciplinary or performance management procedures. They are also less likely to be hired from shortlisting (NHS job applications are applicant blind until the shortlisting processs) and feel less support regarding career progression opportunities.
I’ve had to raise an issue with our Executive Leadership team on Friday on behalf of one of our staff networks around the experience of staff which is absolutely bonkers. Again, however you try to chop it up the facts remain
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"Gatekeeper
You’re such an idol. Keep fighting the good fight bro"I prefer ‘legend’ but idol works | |||
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"Gatekeeper
You’re such an idol. Keep fighting the good fight bro
I prefer ‘legend’ but idol works "Leg end. Or bell end.
Hmmmm | |||
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From the NHS Race and Health Observatory: https://www.nhsrho.org/news/new-research-identifies-gaps-in-ethnicity-research-in-maternal-care/ | |||
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"I find it utterly bizarre how so many contributors here seek to deny facts that have been borne out over and over again, in report after report, across the NHS. Outcomes for women are poorer than men in many areas and outcomes for non-white women are the poorest of all. Women of all backgrounds are routinely disbelieved about their pain and suffering and again, this is worse still for women who are Black or Asian. Instead of trying to make arguments about "but she was being difficult" or blaming doctor's strikes etc, let's interrogate why these facts have remained unchanged since forever. Before doctor's strikes etc, Black and Asian women had poorer outcomes. Why? A lot of people accept why, including the NHS itself, but no, some people here think they know better.
From the NHS Race and Health Observatory: https://www.nhsrho.org/news/new-research-identifies-gaps-in-ethnicity-research-in-maternal-care/"Yes. And those who are worried that the fingers are only being pointed at the UK - have no fear, my experience is international. It's not Brits, it's people  | |||
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" as wonderful our NHS is, is it fit for purpose? What are the solutions do you think to address health inequalities like these? " No, currently it isn't. Chronic underfunding has left it pretty much fit for nothing. The only things the NHS manages adequately are emergencies. It needs better funding and better management. What it does NOT need is privatisation or being run for the profit of individuals. As for the systemic racism, sexism and bias against other marginalised groups (meaning LGBTQ+) that mostly comes down to better education and reversing the conditioning that leads to poorer care for people who are not white cis men. Even female doctors are conditioned by their training to disregard and dismiss women's pain. As for the failings of the NHS in treating mental health conditions, don't even start me. | |||
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" as wonderful our NHS is, is it fit for purpose? What are the solutions do you think to address health inequalities like these? No, currently it isn't. Chronic underfunding has left it pretty much fit for nothing. The only things the NHS manages adequately are emergencies. It needs better funding and better management. What it does NOT need is privatisation or being run for the profit of individuals. As for the systemic racism, sexism and bias against other marginalised groups (meaning LGBTQ+) that mostly comes down to better education and reversing the conditioning that leads to poorer care for people who are not white cis men. Even female doctors are conditioned by their training to disregard and dismiss women's pain. As for the failings of the NHS in treating mental health conditions, don't even start me. " Not wanting to hijack Mr. Pickle's thread, but outcomes and care for disable people are also woeful. Hospitals are some of the least accessible places I have been to. | |||
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"*disabled people." | |||
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" as wonderful our NHS is, is it fit for purpose? What are the solutions do you think to address health inequalities like these? No, currently it isn't. Chronic underfunding has left it pretty much fit for nothing. The only things the NHS manages adequately are emergencies. It needs better funding and better management. What it does NOT need is privatisation or being run for the profit of individuals. As for the systemic racism, sexism and bias against other marginalised groups (meaning LGBTQ+) that mostly comes down to better education and reversing the conditioning that leads to poorer care for people who are not white cis men. Even female doctors are conditioned by their training to disregard and dismiss women's pain. As for the failings of the NHS in treating mental health conditions, don't even start me. Not wanting to hijack Mr. Pickle's thread, but outcomes and care for disable people are also woeful. Hospitals are some of the least accessible places I have been to. " See also neuro diverse people. | |||
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"*disabled people. Not hijacking. Talk about it "I've shared my own experiences in the past but have had people suggest I'm lying or that I must have received poor care due to my own poor attitude or behaviour. So I'm reluctant to go into vast detail again. But...... Hospital parking - shit Quality of access from designated disabled parking - shit Expectation that all disabled people have a "carer" and they will be accompanied to appointments - shit Accessible toilets in the hospitals I use most frequently - absolute fucking jokes, shit Access to toilets and shower facilities as an inpatient - total and utter shit Ability for the NHS to cater for specific dietary needs as a result of disability, to inpatients- next to non existent Staff availability to assist and support disabled patients due to the aforementioned shitty things - non existent I'm not in the best frame of mind at present but even the shiny new build hospitals (like Salford) have major shittiness built in for disabled patients. It's like the visual design is so much more important than the function. And the deluded expectation that everyone can get to appointments by public transport, leaving woeful access via cars etc. And that's before we interrogate the actual quality of care and support for disabled people. That's another story. | |||
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"I find it utterly bizarre how so many contributors here seek to deny facts that have been borne out over and over again, in report after report, across the NHS. Outcomes for women are poorer than men in many areas and outcomes for non-white women are the poorest of all. Women of all backgrounds are routinely disbelieved about their pain and suffering and again, this is worse still for women who are Black or Asian. Instead of trying to make arguments about "but she was being difficult" or blaming doctor's strikes etc, let's interrogate why these facts have remained unchanged since forever. Before doctor's strikes etc, Black and Asian women had poorer outcomes. Why? A lot of people accept why, including the NHS itself, but no, some people here think they know better.
From the NHS Race and Health Observatory: https://www.nhsrho.org/news/new-research-identifies-gaps-in-ethnicity-research-in-maternal-care/"tbf the doctors strike was cited in the report among other reasons. It's hard to tell how much was down to those issues we see across the board, and how much was down to some specifuc circumstances like the strikes or using the wrong pain scale. | |||
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"I’ll go back and read the whole thread after I’ve said my initial bit….. Firstly I work in the NHS do some of my views may be biased. Secondly my sister has had had incredible care with the delivery of each of her children in London. The most recent nation CQC programme of inspections across maternity services showed that over 2/3 are now rated inadequate or requires improvement (including the Trust I work at). There are clear issues with clinical quality all across the country that need addressing. It is well known that the experience of black women in maternity services is far worse than other demographics by a long way and it’s multifaceted. Like I did see in the first few posts, the isms play a big part. I will say though that imo whilst a it can’t all be attributed to white people. The NHS does employ large numbers of ethnic staff in clinical positions, and often a number of those will come from cultures that do not look favourably on black people. Additionally you also have black staff who tell other black patients that they shouldn’t make so much noise. You’re a big African person woman, what are you making so much noise for
The unco*scious bias about how black people do or don’t feel pain remains a factor that impacts peoples response in the moment and that remains shocking in 2024.
Then there’s the fact that black women are more likely to have co-morbidities that make their pregnancies more challenging and difficult to manage by definition increasing the possibility of clotting, postpartum hemorrhage and other such issues.
That’s where the challenge of equity vs equality comes in. Equality is everyone having access to (what should be) safe maternity care. Equity is realising this demographic have worse clinical outcomes and ensuring that their pre and post natal care packages reflect what we know. That’s where we need to do further work.
I’ll shut up for a bit please don't shut up!
100pc we need to focus on equities. Also understanding.
Your point on co morbidities. How much of that drives the difference in outcomes versus other biases and differences? (Going out on a limb, I'm going to guess that morbidity is also linked to sociostatus too)
Co-morbidity is a huge driver I’ll say that much IMO as often the care needs of those individuals can be incredibly complex. However once you recognise this, it’s the next step here we see a disparity between how people are treated. You have to understand clinically that who you are dealing with a person who higher complexities and risk attached to their care and ensure that your clinical assessment, empathy, language and decision to seek a second opinion (where clinically appropriate) are all top notch. That’s naturally very difficult to do in busy pressured clinical environment but essential if you are going to see optimal clinical outcomes."100pc agree. There's absolutely a case that we should treat someone differently because they are in a group that has different risks. I wonder how much we could remove the differences in outcomes from this approach, and how much would remain from unc0ncious bias. As for me, there's only so much use of knowing there is a difference in outcomes, understanding the whys is what will drive meaningful change. | |||
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" as wonderful our NHS is, is it fit for purpose? What are the solutions do you think to address health inequalities like these? No, currently it isn't. Chronic underfunding has left it pretty much fit for nothing. The only things the NHS manages adequately are emergencies. It needs better funding and better management. What it does NOT need is privatisation or being run for the profit of individuals. As for the systemic racism, sexism and bias against other marginalised groups (meaning LGBTQ+) that mostly comes down to better education and reversing the conditioning that leads to poorer care for people who are not white cis men. Even female doctors are conditioned by their training to disregard and dismiss women's pain. As for the failings of the NHS in treating mental health conditions, don't even start me. Not wanting to hijack Mr. Pickle's thread, but outcomes and care for disable people are also woeful. Hospitals are some of the least accessible places I have been to. See also neuro diverse people." See Oliver McGowan. | |||
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"I find it utterly bizarre how so many contributors here seek to deny facts that have been borne out over and over again, in report after report, across the NHS. Outcomes for women are poorer than men in many areas and outcomes for non-white women are the poorest of all. Women of all backgrounds are routinely disbelieved about their pain and suffering and again, this is worse still for women who are Black or Asian. Instead of trying to make arguments about "but she was being difficult" or blaming doctor's strikes etc, let's interrogate why these facts have remained unchanged since forever. Before doctor's strikes etc, Black and Asian women had poorer outcomes. Why? A lot of people accept why, including the NHS itself, but no, some people here think they know better.
From the NHS Race and Health Observatory: https://www.nhsrho.org/news/new-research-identifies-gaps-in-ethnicity-research-in-maternal-care/tbf the doctors strike was cited in the report among other reasons. It's hard to tell how much was down to those issues we see across the board, and how much was down to some specifuc circumstances like the strikes or using the wrong pain scale. "In that very specific example, perhaps the doc strikes were an issue. But outcomes for non-white women have been very poor since forever. Way before any doctors strikes and before this present century. If outcomes for non-white women have been poor, irrespective of the Govt of the day, the state of the NHS at time etc, one questions what the very baseline reason(s) could be. | |||
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