FabSwingers.com forum: I think about race A LOT.

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

Like a lot. And I have specifically been thinking about Martin Luther King Jr recently and how watered down his politics have become in terms of how most people quote him and understand him. And that’s really sad. I’ll do another thread about that another time.

Anyway I have ended up thinking a lot about the colour blind approach that people have to race. To me it’s harmful. What do you think?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *emidemiWoman
48 weeks ago

basingstoke

I agree that it’s harmful. I get the *intentions* behind saying things like “I don’t see race everyone is the same to me”, like you’re trying. You’re trying to make it sound like you treat everyone equally and fairly.

But actually we need to acknowledge it, and acknowledge that people of different races will have different world views, privileges etc.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *illy IdolMan
48 weeks ago

Midlands

Hi Steven. Why do you find it harmful?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *naswingdressWoman
48 weeks ago

Manchester (she/her)

I think a lot of this stuff gets corrupted by power. Watering down MLK etc, plus what might have been genuinely good intentions that end up creating erasure and plausible deniability.

I also share my thoughts relatively sparsely in some environments, out of a sense of self preservation.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
48 weeks ago

I adopt it because the race discussion/topic has become too much for me, I just try to treat everyone with respect, if that’s not enough for someone then bye Felicia

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *agusMan
48 weeks ago

Near by

Race is just another feature people should be proud off, and not a feature that should be judged.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *heGateKeeperMan
48 weeks ago

Stratford

You think about it because it affects you.

I think about it a lot less when I’m in London, than I do when I’m In the ‘Shire.

I’ve always said gimme an overt racist any day of the week

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ouples_EroticaXXXCouple
48 weeks ago

manchester

"Like a lot. And I have specifically been thinking about Martin Luther King Jr recently and how watered down his politics have become in terms of how most people quote him and understand him. And that’s really sad. I’ll do another thread about that another time.

Anyway I have ended up thinking a lot about the colour blind approach that people have to race. To me it’s harmful. What do you think? "

Do you think people of differing races can ever understand inter racial issues? Or is it impossible without the lived experience people have in their own race?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

"I agree that it’s harmful. I get the *intentions* behind saying things like “I don’t see race everyone is the same to me”, like you’re trying. You’re trying to make it sound like you treat everyone equally and fairly.

But actually we need to acknowledge it, and acknowledge that people of different races will have different world views, privileges etc. "

You get it

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

"Hi Steven. Why do you find it harmful?"

Pretty much what Demi said. When you see me I want you to see me as I am and recognise the implications my race has on my experiences. And also recognise it and think about the language you use and behaviours you exhibit.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

"I think a lot of this stuff gets corrupted by power. Watering down MLK etc, plus what might have been genuinely good intentions that end up creating erasure and plausible deniability.

I also share my thoughts relatively sparsely in some environments, out of a sense of self preservation."

I’m cynical. I don’t think there’s any good intentions, just deliberate misrepresentation

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

"I adopt it because the race discussion/topic has become too much for me, I just try to treat everyone with respect, if that’s not enough for someone then bye Felicia "

You’re honestly something else. I -

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

"Race is just another feature people should be proud off, and not a feature that should be judged."

I’m proud to be Black

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
48 weeks ago

But actually we need to acknowledge it, and acknowledge that people of different races will have different world views, privileges etc. "

It is called equality and diversity.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

"You think about it because it affects you.

I think about it a lot less when I’m in London, than I do when I’m In the ‘Shire.

I’ve always said gimme an overt racist any day of the week

Also yes. I know where I stand with them. I much prefer them.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

Anyway I have ended up thinking a lot about the colour blind approach that people have to race. To me it’s harmful. What do you think?

Do you think people of differing races can ever understand inter racial issues? Or is it impossible without the lived experience people have in their own race?"

If I understand you correctly, then my answer is probably no. Our experiences are unique. The discrimination faced is often unique too.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
48 weeks ago

I think it’s harmful to obsess over “race”. (Even the idea that there are different “races” of people is stupid).

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

"I think it’s harmful to obsess over “race”. (Even the idea that there are different “races” of people is stupid)."

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

"I think it’s harmful to obsess over “race”. (Even the idea that there are different “races” of people is stupid)."

Black don’t crack brother

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
48 weeks ago

"Hi Steven. Why do you find it harmful?

Same for any of us. It is about respect and being non-judgemental towards any race, religion beliefs, culture. At school everyone was diverse and I accepted them for who they are.

Equality, non-judgemental, diverse accepting everyone.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *heGateKeeperMan
48 weeks ago

Stratford

On a slight tangent, I was listening to the radio during the week with people, including a prominent trans teacher/activist, defending Sunak for his comments this week. I was listening to them defend the literal words used, and argue that it was a critique of Starmer and not a slur to trans women and thinking to myself this is a lot like when people say crazy racist things but people don’t perceive it as racist just because the N word was nowhere in sight

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

"On a slight tangent, I was listening to the radio during the week with people, including a prominent trans teacher/activist, defending Sunak for his comments this week. I was listening to them defend the literal words used, and argue that it was a critique of Starmer and not a slur to trans women and thinking to myself this is a lot like when people say crazy racist things but people don’t perceive it as racist just because the N word was nowhere in sight

A battle that I’ve learned you can never win is as a Black person, getting non Black people to acknowledge your experiences with racism as racism. And the same is true for all groups that experience discrimination. I see plenty of men also telling women what misogyny is or isn’t

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *naswingdressWoman
48 weeks ago

Manchester (she/her)

"I think a lot of this stuff gets corrupted by power. Watering down MLK etc, plus what might have been genuinely good intentions that end up creating erasure and plausible deniability.

I also share my thoughts relatively sparsely in some environments, out of a sense of self preservation.

I’m cynical. I don’t think there’s any good intentions, just deliberate misrepresentation "

I get that. It all looks fucking horrible now, but I remember when I was younger, "I don't see race" seemed to be the progressive thing to do. I do wonder if gen X and up, at least some of them are genuinely trying with a method they believed would be helpful. (and older people tend to be less flexible etc)

I'm not saying that the power structures aren't shit, but that individuals might be acting in good faith. (I'm also not asking you to mollycoddle anyone, more talking in the abstract. And I recognise that I have the privilege to be able to distance myself from that)

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *naswingdressWoman
48 weeks ago

Manchester (she/her)

Yeah. I think flooding the zone with shit to exhaust activists is very much a thing, and it's important to know when to not fucking bother. (Do as I say not as I do etc)

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ty31Man
48 weeks ago

NW London

Anyway I have ended up thinking a lot about the colour blind approach that people have to race. To me it’s harmful. What do you think? "

Personally, I don't think it's harmful but I don't think it's "correct" either.

I like to think that our differences in culture, language etc are what makes us who we are and this diversity in society is a good thing.

I don't believe that people who use the expression "colour blind" are being prejudice in any way or disregarding the conversation around race. It's just that alot of people (in particular blue collar) like to be succinct in their words- they won't use twenty when they can express in five etc.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

"I think a lot of this stuff gets corrupted by power. Watering down MLK etc, plus what might have been genuinely good intentions that end up creating erasure and plausible deniability.

I also share my thoughts relatively sparsely in some environments, out of a sense of self preservation.

I’m cynical. I don’t think there’s any good intentions, just deliberate misrepresentation

The diverse misrepresentation comment is about Dr King.

BUT

There’s been a lot of discourse and a lot of work that’s been done. It’s really not good enough is it, to say that you didn’t know that we’ve moved beyond colour blindness in an anti racism context. I agree it’s acting in good faith but like the road to hell is paved with good intentions. At some point we gotta stop coddling and congratulating people for meaning well. Meaning well ain’t doing shit for nobody.

Anyway long story short, if they’re an actual anti racist, gen x or not, they’re not doing that colour blind shit.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

Yeah. I think flooding the zone with shit to exhaust activists is very much a thing, and it's important to know when to not fucking bother. (Do as I say not as I do etc)"

We can’t win them all

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

Anyway I have ended up thinking a lot about the colour blind approach that people have to race. To me it’s harmful. What do you think?

Personally, I don't think it's harmful but I don't think it's "correct" either.

I like to think that our differences in culture, language etc are what makes us who we are and this diversity in society is a good thing.

Interesting.

I disagree completely that it’s not harmful but I see your points. I hear you.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *heGateKeeperMan
48 weeks ago

Stratford

"I think a lot of this stuff gets corrupted by power. Watering down MLK etc, plus what might have been genuinely good intentions that end up creating erasure and plausible deniability.

I also share my thoughts relatively sparsely in some environments, out of a sense of self preservation.

I’m cynical. I don’t think there’s any good intentions, just deliberate misrepresentation

I think there are some people who genuinely want to do good and how much language has evolved in a short period of change has genuinely led to confusion.

I also think we are much better now at analysing and explaining things, because we have more history and information at our disposal than ever.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

"I think a lot of this stuff gets corrupted by power. Watering down MLK etc, plus what might have been genuinely good intentions that end up creating erasure and plausible deniability.

I also share my thoughts relatively sparsely in some environments, out of a sense of self preservation.

I’m cynical. I don’t think there’s any good intentions, just deliberate misrepresentation

The diverse misrepresentation comment is about Dr King.

BUT

Anyway long story short, if they’re an actual anti racist, gen x or not, they’re not doing that colour blind shit. "

Deliberate misrepresentation *

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ea monkeyMan
48 weeks ago

Manchester (he/him)

I completely agree.

I think that people get kneejerk responses to the term ‘racist’ and think ‘that can’t be me’. They create responses that appease that fear but don’t actually make critical changes to create a better world.

Things like the colour blind response is a part of that, it doesn’t acknowledge privilege or discrimination, it just makes a position where they’re not an active participant in either aspect.

I think that things would be different if people listen to the discussion and lived experiences of others, rather than imposing their beliefs and views over the top before the discussion starts

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *heGateKeeperMan
48 weeks ago

Stratford

Anyway I have ended up thinking a lot about the colour blind approach that people have to race. To me it’s harmful. What do you think?

Personally, I don't think it's harmful but I don't think it's "correct" either.

I like to think that our differences in culture, language etc are what makes us who we are and this diversity in society is a good thing.

They are not being prejudiced per se, but I think we can agree that it is dismissive.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

"I think a lot of this stuff gets corrupted by power. Watering down MLK etc, plus what might have been genuinely good intentions that end up creating erasure and plausible deniability.

I also share my thoughts relatively sparsely in some environments, out of a sense of self preservation.

I’m cynical. I don’t think there’s any good intentions, just deliberate misrepresentation

I think there are some people who genuinely want to do good and how much language has evolved in a short period of change has genuinely led to confusion.

I also think we are much better now at analysing and explaining things, because we have more history and information at our disposal than ever."

I kinda agree. Things have changed majorly since I was like 16 and first engaging with this stuff. If I didn’t care about it I wouldn’t notice. And it sounds harsh but I’ve got white friends in their 60s that say the right things because they engage with it because it matters to them.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
48 weeks ago

I think about race a lot. I didn’t grow up thinking about it a lot. When I moved from my country of birth to another country where race was an obvious divisor it became a daily thought. It affected how I lived life and the way I interacted with others.

The intention behind those who say they don’t see colour is difficult to comprehend in a society where the mere colour of one’s skin is in fact a divisor amongst us. It negates the experiences of those who are not seen or treated as equal simply by being born black.

On the other hand, having lived in a society where skin colour wasn’t used as a divisor, in the same way, I can understand an actual intent that is backed by equality. I recently came across a social media video of a woman explaining her blackness in a society where skin colour wasn’t a divisor and then moving to a place where it was only to “discover” she was black in terms of the negative implications society placed on her in that environment. It was the first time I saw something where others have expressed similarities to my own lived experiences. I can remember the first time someone used my skin colour as a divisor amongst a group. I was a teenager. I hadn’t experienced that before, and didn’t understand why my skin colour excluded me from the group as I grew up in a society where colour wasn’t the thing people noticed as a difference amongst others. All that to say, there can be places where people don’t see colour but in a white majority society that statement is not received as perhaps intended by the person uttering it. It is more harmful than helpful.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

I completely agree.

Things like the colour blind response is a part of that, it doesn’t acknowledge privilege or discrimination, it just makes a position where they’re not an active participant in either aspect.

I think that things would be different if people listen to the discussion and lived experiences of others, rather than imposing their beliefs and views over the top before the discussion starts"

You get it, Tea

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ostindreamsMan
48 weeks ago

London

"Race is just another feature people should be proud off, and not a feature that should be judged."

I think race should be something someone should neither be proud of nor be judged. Being too proud of one's own race is what led to historical oppression. In George Carlin's words, pride should be reserved for something which you achieved. Being born into something is not something to be proud about.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

"I think about race a lot. I didn’t grow up thinking about it a lot. When I moved from my country of birth to another country where race was an obvious divisor it became a daily thought. It affected how I lived life and the way I interacted with others.

Bella

Your insight and your experience is appreciated.

Interestingly, it makes me think of Stuart Hall writing about not hearing the term Black until he left Jamaica for England and not understanding race or racism in the same way until he came to England. I’ll find the text and post it because I think you might find it interesting and maybe relatable at points.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *naswingdressWoman
48 weeks ago

Manchester (she/her)

"I think a lot of this stuff gets corrupted by power. Watering down MLK etc, plus what might have been genuinely good intentions that end up creating erasure and plausible deniability.

I also share my thoughts relatively sparsely in some environments, out of a sense of self preservation.

I’m cynical. I don’t think there’s any good intentions, just deliberate misrepresentation

The diverse misrepresentation comment is about Dr King.

BUT

Anyway long story short, if they’re an actual anti racist, gen x or not, they’re not doing that colour blind shit. "

Oh absolutely.

I want people to do better, but it's less personally exhausting to believe that (some) people are well meaning and inflexible in their older age than to believe that people are self absorbed shitheads. (Although there's also sometimes a liberating feeling to just go, nope, no point, onto the garbage pile with you

)

I'm not thinking about giving people anti racist cookies (especially not for "colour blind", they can have some spinach and fuck off). Much more about how to personally manage the slog of shit humans.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

"Race is just another feature people should be proud off, and not a feature that should be judged.

But there also has to be recognition in the historical contexts in which, say, Black people have been made to feel and understand about their blackness is where things like Black Pride have come from. Things like the Black and proud movement, Black is beautiful, etc are more about reclamation/ changing historically oppressive narratives than they are about supremacy and subsequent oppressive practices.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *heGateKeeperMan
48 weeks ago

Stratford

https://youtube.com/shorts/rCKL7km5i-Y?si=dEbNH80U-idS5sjr

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

"I think a lot of this stuff gets corrupted by power. Watering down MLK etc, plus what might have been genuinely good intentions that end up creating erasure and plausible deniability.

I also share my thoughts relatively sparsely in some environments, out of a sense of self preservation.

I’m cynical. I don’t think there’s any good intentions, just deliberate misrepresentation

The diverse misrepresentation comment is about Dr King.

BUT

Anyway long story short, if they’re an actual anti racist, gen x or not, they’re not doing that colour blind shit.

Oh absolutely.

)

I hear you. Not what you were saying I know but I weirdly find the ‘people are shit’ comments so lazy and such a cop out of holding people accountable for what their views and behaviours actually mean.

I know you get it btw Swing just a thought that your comment triggered.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

"https://youtube.com/shorts/rCKL7km5i-Y?si=dEbNH80U-idS5sjr"

Jane Elliot is a good egg.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
48 weeks ago

[Removed by poster at 09/02/24 11:30:14]

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *naswingdressWoman
48 weeks ago

Manchester (she/her)

"Race is just another feature people should be proud off, and not a feature that should be judged.

Yes, I think pride movements are essential in reclaiming what was taken, often (aided) by law enforcement and often with profound violence.

Especially in a world where the power structures whine endlessly that if we tell the truth and give the Other a seat at the table, then they and their children will cease to have meaning and might feel bad. (maybe they should exercise some personal responsibility and self regulate

)

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *illy IdolMan
48 weeks ago

Midlands

"Hi Steven. Why do you find it harmful?

Thank you. It's a tough one, Stephen. It's all relatively new and I believe most want to put the past right and learn from history. It's slowly changing and going about it the right way will take time.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
48 weeks ago

"Race is just another feature people should be proud off, and not a feature that should be judged.

Yes, I think pride movements are essential in reclaiming what was taken, often (aided) by law enforcement and often with profound violence.

Pride movements are dangerous. Especially when it comes to ethnicity. Several people I know have slowly become racist due to this kind of conditioning.

Sometimes I feel like I’m living in the twilight zone because to me it’s obvious that these constant discussions about “race” are harming society. Yet nobody else can see it.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
48 weeks ago

Bella

Your insight and your experience is appreciated.

Oh, I’ll look it up Stuart Hall to save you the work of doing it.

It sounds similar to the video I found. The woman was Nigerian and moved to England where she first heard the word Black herself. She expressed, similarly, not understanding racism having lived in a place where Black wasn’t an identifier.

They were just people amongst a diverse society. It saddens me that this is so foreign amongst many.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *naswingdressWoman
48 weeks ago

Manchester (she/her)

"I think a lot of this stuff gets corrupted by power. Watering down MLK etc, plus what might have been genuinely good intentions that end up creating erasure and plausible deniability.

I also share my thoughts relatively sparsely in some environments, out of a sense of self preservation.

I’m cynical. I don’t think there’s any good intentions, just deliberate misrepresentation

The diverse misrepresentation comment is about Dr King.

BUT

Anyway long story short, if they’re an actual anti racist, gen x or not, they’re not doing that colour blind shit.

Oh absolutely.

)

I know you get it btw Swing just a thought that your comment triggered. "

I find it to be both a cop out and necessary at the same time.

Some people just want to waste our time and energy. Some will only recognise oppression when it comes in the one time they experienced a minor inconvenience, and my heart bleeds for their extreme suffering.

We have to try. But we also need to work out whether there are irretrievable energy sinks that we should avoid. (I still sometimes feel bad calling people irretrievable. I shouldn't)

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ostindreamsMan
48 weeks ago

London

"Race is just another feature people should be proud off, and not a feature that should be judged.

I see your point. But IMO the outcome of this is more negative than positive to the society. If white people started a white pride movement, they will be criticised for it for the same reason you mentioned - Historically they haven't been oppressed(which is not completely true. But that's another debate)

Essentially what we are creating is a two tier society where one group is allowed to be proud of their race/sexuality. But another group is told they shouldn't do that, for a mistake most of them didn't partake in. This leads to resentment.

Personally, I don't see a point of being proud of my nation, skin or my caste in India. I belong to what is one of the "backward castes" in India. But most honour killings in India are done by people from these backward caste categories, who are too proud of their caste. So I am totally averse to being proud of such birth aspects and find the feeling unhealthy in the long term.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *naswingdressWoman
48 weeks ago

Manchester (she/her)

"Race is just another feature people should be proud off, and not a feature that should be judged.

Yes, I think pride movements are essential in reclaiming what was taken, often (aided) by law enforcement and often with profound violence.

)

Pride movements are dangerous. Especially when it comes to ethnicity. Several people I know have slowly become racist due to this kind of conditioning.

Sometimes I feel like I’m living in the twilight zone because to me it’s obvious that these constant discussions about “race” are harming society. Yet nobody else can see it."

Interesting assertion. Got any evidence (not personal anecdotes) to back that up?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *rHotNottsMan
48 weeks ago

Dubai & Nottingham

Racism is about far more than black and white. I live in a country where something like 95% of the population are immigrants from all over the world , we’re all foreigners, but there’s very little racism. When I work in Africa, I see racism and tribalism for more violent than here or in the UK.

You should be blind to race and gender and focus on equality, Focus on what we have in common not on things that make us different and divide us.

In Rwanda they practically barred the concept of ethnicity , It’s considered rude now to ask if someone is Hutu or Tootsie, They are all just Rwandans.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
48 weeks ago

"Race is just another feature people should be proud off, and not a feature that should be judged.

Yes, I think pride movements are essential in reclaiming what was taken, often (aided) by law enforcement and often with profound violence.

)

Pride movements are dangerous. Especially when it comes to ethnicity. Several people I know have slowly become racist due to this kind of conditioning.

Sometimes I feel like I’m living in the twilight zone because to me it’s obvious that these constant discussions about “race” are harming society. Yet nobody else can see it.

Interesting assertion. Got any evidence (not personal anecdotes) to back that up?"

What’s the difference between evidence vs me seeing it happen? Or is this another attempt to invalidate the experience of someone who actually lives this first hand?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *naswingdressWoman
48 weeks ago

Manchester (she/her)

"Race is just another feature people should be proud off, and not a feature that should be judged.

Yes, I think pride movements are essential in reclaiming what was taken, often (aided) by law enforcement and often with profound violence.

)

Pride movements are dangerous. Especially when it comes to ethnicity. Several people I know have slowly become racist due to this kind of conditioning.

Sometimes I feel like I’m living in the twilight zone because to me it’s obvious that these constant discussions about “race” are harming society. Yet nobody else can see it.

Interesting assertion. Got any evidence (not personal anecdotes) to back that up?

What’s the difference between evidence vs me seeing it happen? Or is this another attempt to invalidate the experience of someone who actually lives this first hand?"

People claim all sorts on the internet - it's not personal, it's a known phenomenon. I don't know you from Adam.

Evidence probably exists in the form of people cataloguing and analysing lived experiences. It doesn't have to be an either/or.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
48 weeks ago

"Racism is about far more than black and white. I live in a country where something like 95% of the population are immigrants from all over the world , we’re all foreigners, but there’s very little racism. When I work in Africa, I see racism and tribalism for more violent than here or in the UK.

You should be blind to race and gender and focus on equality, Focus on what we have in common not on things that make us different and divide us.

In Rwanda they practically barred the concept of ethnicity , It’s considered rude now to ask if someone is Hutu or Tootsie, They are all just Rwandans.

I like that view. Trying to just treat everyone with respect and you can’t really go wrong

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ty31Man
48 weeks ago

NW London

Anyway I have ended up thinking a lot about the colour blind approach that people have to race. To me it’s harmful. What do you think?

Personally, I don't think it's harmful but I don't think it's "correct" either.

I like to think that our differences in culture, language etc are what makes us who we are and this diversity in society is a good thing.

Interesting.

I disagree completely that it’s not harmful but I see your points. I hear you. "

, that's within your rights to disagree. It's always good to hear a different opinion and a different perspective.

I think one of the problems we have today surrounding opinions is that it's become too much of a zero sum game. People have their opinions and they hold them to be totally right and somebody else's to be totally wrong. People argue too much and don't discuss enough.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *AYENCouple
48 weeks ago

Lincolnshire

Racists are often obsessed with race, so it comes as no surprise.

It's a bit like the gender thing, most of us on a day to day basis don't give our or others gender a second thought and as a result we aren't obsessed with it and don't think that every negative experience or interaction is because of it.

Every person I've ever had in my life is because of who they are as opposed to what they are, I would imagine the vast majority of people are the same.

We work for very wealthy and privileged private clients, 60% of whom are black or Asian, I don't think they would have achieved what they've achieved if they had constantly been in some kind of paranoid obsession.

History had been terrible to many, at some point you have to look forward whilst remembering the past.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
48 weeks ago

I think a colourblind approach maybe ignores that persons identity and struggle, which could also harmful.

Without being that person, I don't know, but that's me assuming.

But I understand the good intent behind that approach.

My approach towards people is, regardless of race, sex, religion, if you are a knobhead, you are a knobhead.

Treat everybody with the respect you would expect.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ostindreamsMan
48 weeks ago

London

"Race is just another feature people should be proud off, and not a feature that should be judged.

Yes, I think pride movements are essential in reclaiming what was taken, often (aided) by law enforcement and often with profound violence.

)

Pride movements are dangerous. Especially when it comes to ethnicity. Several people I know have slowly become racist due to this kind of conditioning.

Sometimes I feel like I’m living in the twilight zone because to me it’s obvious that these constant discussions about “race” are harming society. Yet nobody else can see it."

Exactly! Most people don't realise this. But racism against black people is much more rampant among Asians than among White people. I also know many cases of black people being racist against East Asians ever since Covid. Just because people of a particular ethnicity have been oppressed in the past, it doesn't mean that people of today of the same ethnicity will magically become anti-racist. By instilling racial pride, we will end up breeding racism. It is a wrong road to take. But unfortunately that's where we are going.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ark ElMan
48 weeks ago

London

"Racists are often obsessed with race, so it comes as no surprise.

Every person I've ever had in my life is because of who they are as opposed to what they are, I would imagine the vast majority of people are the same.

History had been terrible to many, at some point you have to look forward whilst remembering the past. "

Beautifully said.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ortyairCouple
48 weeks ago

Wallasey

Looking back at history allows us to see oppression and discrimination, when and how it took place and if we are sensible we should learn from this and not repeat the mistakes of the past.

Unfortunately that is not human nature. Such historic acts are used by following generations to justify their behaviours, from things such as name calling up to genocidal atrocities.

Oppression and discrimination has always occurred wherever Man has settled on the planet and unfortunately its showing no signs of stopping. The lessons history can teach us are not being understood and put to a positive.

This isn't one races problem it's a species problem. Everyone needs to learn otherwise it will never stop, Mrs x

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

"Race is just another feature people should be proud off, and not a feature that should be judged.

Yes, I think pride movements are essential in reclaiming what was taken, often (aided) by law enforcement and often with profound violence.

)

Pride movements are dangerous. Especially when it comes to ethnicity. Several people I know have slowly become racist due to this kind of conditioning.

Sometimes I feel like I’m living in the twilight zone because to me it’s obvious that these constant discussions about “race” are harming society. Yet nobody else can see it."
stay woke

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

"Racists are often obsessed with race, so it comes as no surprise.

Every person I've ever had in my life is because of who they are as opposed to what they are, I would imagine the vast majority of people are the same.

History had been terrible to many, at some point you have to look forward whilst remembering the past. "

Some of the richest, most intelligent people I know care about racism and actively fight and campaign against it.

but go off

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *uzie69xTV/TS
48 weeks ago

Maidstone

"But actually we need to acknowledge it, and acknowledge that people of different races will have different world views, privileges etc.

It is called equality and diversity. "

Going by the great discussion here, the term I prefer to use is "Diversity and Inclusion". So it is to understand how you are different from me, and how I can include you. So no more them and us.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

"Race is just another feature people should be proud off, and not a feature that should be judged.

Yes, I think pride movements are essential in reclaiming what was taken, often (aided) by law enforcement and often with profound violence.

)

Pride movements are dangerous. Especially when it comes to ethnicity. Several people I know have slowly become racist due to this kind of conditioning.

Sometimes I feel like I’m living in the twilight zone because to me it’s obvious that these constant discussions about “race” are harming society. Yet nobody else can see it.

Racism amongst poc has nothing to do with the points I made about the Black is beautiful / Black Power or Black and proud movements. So not sure what this comment was about. Plenty of people know and acknowledge the racism that exists amongst poc. POC solidarity is regularly joked about in lots of circles.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

"Race is just another feature people should be proud off, and not a feature that should be judged.

If white people started a white pride movement kinda suggests that you don’t see my point. Which is fine.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ortyairCouple
48 weeks ago

Wallasey

"Race is just another feature people should be proud off, and not a feature that should be judged.

If white people started a white pride movement kinda suggests that you don’t see my point. Which is fine.

"
So is pride in your race limited to those of a certain race? And is racism exclusively limited to a certain race?Because history seems to say differently, it's a human problem, Mrs x

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ealitybitesMan
48 weeks ago

Belfast

"I think a colourblind approach maybe ignores that persons identity and struggle, which could also harmful.

Without being that person, I don't know, but that's me assuming.

But I understand the good intent behind that approach.

My approach towards people is, regardless of race, sex, religion, if you are a knobhead, you are a knobhead.

Treat everybody with the respect you would expect.

This is how I approach this.

I don't think about race at all just as I don't think about sexuality or religious beliefs.

I've never had black neighbours or work colleagues and I don't know anyone who is gay or trans so I always struggle when others tell me that I need to educate myself.

I don't understand the need to educate myself in things that have no relevance in my life.

I have used the term colour blind on here not because I'm intending to be dismissive but because I genuinely am blind to race,creed, colour and sexual orientation.

I speak to everyone equally right up to the point where they tell me that I should speak to them differently for any particular reason and then I just don't speak to them at all.

If someone tells me I am a lesser human being for refusing to see differences that's just their opinion and one which I disagree with but then again they are guilty of dismissing my experience and opinion so the irony isn't lost on me.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *lym4realCouple
48 weeks ago

plymouth

We both love the lot who say ..I'm not rascist but ....or White lifes matter ...lot ?? and as far as America goes where it leads we tend to follow ?? so it's gone massively backwards in recent times and if Trump get's in again ?? and Mr4 is half italian so tend to go darker than the average brit and has experienced a small bit of rascism in his time ( standard italian jokes ) and he does have the 3 pints of stella rule where we live in that a fair few after afew pints of stella come out with all kinds of offensive shite ( sadly) so he tends not to mix with a fair few of the locals add the fact most of his friends are greek/italian/iranian and the local police force being rascist as ??

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

"there also has to be recognition in the historical contexts in which, say, Black people have been made to feel and understand about their blackness is where things like Black Pride have come from. Things like the Black and proud movement, Black is beautiful, etc are more about reclamation/ changing historically oppressive narratives than they are about supremacy and subsequent oppressive practices.

If white people started a white pride movement kinda suggests that you don’t see my point. Which is fine.

So is pride in your race limited to those of a certain race? And is racism exclusively limited to a certain race?Because history seems to say differently, it's a human problem, Mrs x"

As I said, lol, if you take movements that have encouraged pride in Blackness, they’ve been about reclamation/ changing historically oppressive narratives. Comparing that to someone starting a white pride movement means you didn’t really understand the point. And I just pointed that out.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ortyairCouple
48 weeks ago

Wallasey

If white people started a white pride movement kinda suggests that you don’t see my point. Which is fine.

So is pride in your race limited to those of a certain race? And is racism exclusively limited to a certain race?Because history seems to say differently, it's a human problem, Mrs x

"
I do understand why you have pride in your Blackness but why shouldn't others? Others have days where they celebrate their pride, for similar reasons as you but they seem to cause division, Orange Lodge and Apprentice Boys parades comes to mind.

You obviously feel passionate about this and I understand that the negative aspects of race will be much more of an issue for you, I cannot recall any racist behaviour aimed at me. However I feel that there needs to be a more conciliatory approach taken by everyone and dislike it when I am accused of certain beliefs just because of my race.

I've not suffered, or inflicted any racism. That's not because I am white, it's because I am a decent human being.

So I can proud of being a woman, my sexual orientation, my religious beliefs but not my race for fear of being insensitive to the oppression and discrimination to another race, despite the fact that I don't agree with racism or have ever practised racism and any of its insidious practices.

Mrs x

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ools and the brainCouple
48 weeks ago

couple, us we him her.

But actually we need to acknowledge it, and acknowledge that people of different races will have different world views, privileges etc. "

I think the more you think about something and focus on it the more issues you are going to find.

If as you say have been thinking about it alot then you are constantly focusing on comments and attitudes of others and will always find problems with them.

Personally and this will sound selfish, I really couldn't give a rat's arse,I judge people for how much of a dick they are,I'm too busy trying to survive each day without losing my mind and provide for my family.

I wake up each day and think "here we go again

" if I stop and focus on everything else I would genuinely end up in a padded cell.

It's not me ignoring other issues it's just self preservation being a chronic worrier and overthinker it's hard enough.

So I take each person as they come regardless of colour if they are a dick they are a dick.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
48 weeks ago

"….

Anyway I have ended up thinking a lot about the colour blind approach that people have to race. To me it’s harmful. What do you think? "

I think you think about this stuff a lot.

I don’t try to enter into much discussions about race in here or online, simply because someone tried to say I was racist one time in here. So there’s that.

One thing I do stand by is I do know what I see. I see black men and women. I see white men and women and lots of different skin colour and I don’t realy care one way or another.

To quote many people, “just don’t be a dick, and we’ll get along.”

I’ve visited many spots in America where Martin Luther did his speeches, seen memorials tributes and such, and it did have a massive impact on me.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ostindreamsMan
48 weeks ago

London

[Removed by poster at 09/02/24 12:58:16]

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ortyairCouple
48 weeks ago

Wallasey

But actually we need to acknowledge it, and acknowledge that people of different races will have different world views, privileges etc.

I think the more you think about something and focus on it the more issues you are going to find.

If as you say have been thinking about it alot then you are constantly focusing on comments and attitudes of others and will always find problems with them.

I wake up each day and think "here we go again

" if I stop and focus on everything else I would genuinely end up in a padded cell.

It's not me ignoring other issues it's just self preservation being a chronic worrier and overthinker it's hard enough.

So I take each person as they come regardless of colour if they are a dick they are a dick.

Mrs x

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

I could clarify, I think about race and racism a lot but usually with reason. Not because people make comments aimed at me or those things

. I read a lot of books on the topic because I want to learn more about it. My friends post about injustices going on in the world. And someone posted something on their IG story from an article that got me thinking about it. I was thinking about MLK recently because it’s Black history month in America and lots of the people I interact with on Twitter are Black American Knicks fans. And today I was reading a book at the library and there was an MLK quote in it. Parts of my job force me to think about race. And I watch things that are specifically relevant to popular Black cultures so they reference things (not always racism). I was reading a tweet about Mo’nique and Tyler Perry and how boondocks was right - got me thinking about race in the context of that show.

lol my thoughts about race aren’t all negative boo hoo the world is awful. I started this discussion on a particular topic but don’t think my thoughts around race are all like that.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ortyairCouple
48 weeks ago

Wallasey

"Race is just another feature people should be proud off, and not a feature that should be judged.

If white people started a white pride movement kinda suggests that you don’t see my point. Which is fine.

I totally see your point. But you are using history as a reason to allow one group of people to do something but barring other people to do the same thing. It is not a right logical or moral justification and it won't end well in the longer run. So people are justified to be vary if this."
I'm not using history to allow any group to do anything to anyone else. I'm just using it to point out its always gone on and every race has been involved at some period of time.

What I am saying is we should learn from but unfortunately I think history shows we cannot, it's a terrible self perpetuating tragedy, Mrs x

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ostindreamsMan
48 weeks ago

London

If white people started a white pride movement kinda suggests that you don’t see my point. Which is fine.

So is pride in your race limited to those of a certain race? And is racism exclusively limited to a certain race?Because history seems to say differently, it's a human problem, Mrs x

I totally get your point. The problem is that you are allowing one group of people to do something and barring another group of people to do the same thing, because of what their ancestors did. No one has control over what their ancestors did. The argument is logically flawed.

Also, the motivation with which you start a movement doesn't always translate to the outcome you expect. You say Black Pride movement is totally fine because you are not promoting racism but just pointing out historical oppression. But history says these kind of movements have never ended well. I have seen these kind of movements going horribly wrong in India. All started with good intentions but ending in ways no one liked.

Racial pride isn't a healthy feeling.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

I wanted to clarify that because I hope commenters don’t think that me thinking about race is me obsessing over it or finding negativity where it isn’t. I asked a question. But don’t assume what my thoughts usually are about.

Yesterday I was listening to music and proud to be Black by Robbie from AFTV came on. And I thought about race. I also thought about my dad who played it for me many years ago. But you get the point.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ostindreamsMan
48 weeks ago

London

"Race is just another feature people should be proud off, and not a feature that should be judged.

If white people started a white pride movement kinda suggests that you don’t see my point. Which is fine.

I totally see your point. But you are using history as a reason to allow one group of people to do something but barring other people to do the same thing. It is not a right logical or moral justification and it won't end well in the longer run. So people are justified to be vary if this. I'm not using history to allow any group to do anything to anyone else. I'm just using it to point out its always gone on and every race has been involved at some period of time.

What I am saying is we should learn from but unfortunately I think history shows we cannot, it's a terrible self perpetuating tragedy, Mrs x"

Sorry I deleted and reposted my message with some additional context. But I mostly agree with what you said.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

If white people started a white pride movement kinda suggests that you don’t see my point. Which is fine.

So is pride in your race limited to those of a certain race? And is racism exclusively limited to a certain race?Because history seems to say differently, it's a human problem, Mrs x

Racial pride isn't a healthy feeling. "

I’m not barring anyone from doing anything. White pride movements exist.

They’re not comparable to the movements I was talking about.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *atnip make me purrWoman
48 weeks ago

Reading

I think that if you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem. If you are colour blind then you are blind to the issues that POC face every day. Thats white privilege in a nutshell.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
48 weeks ago

It’s definitely a harmful mindset to have; I’m a radical feminist but even I know my struggles as a white woman are incomparable to those of a black woman; while some things overlap I have to also acknowledge that black women face significant difficulties simply due to their race.

It gives me the ick when people are like ‘I see one race: the human race’ BROTHER EWWWW

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
48 weeks ago

If white people started a white pride movement kinda suggests that you don’t see my point. Which is fine.

So is pride in your race limited to those of a certain race? And is racism exclusively limited to a certain race?Because history seems to say differently, it's a human problem, Mrs x

Racial pride isn't a healthy feeling.

I’m not barring anyone from doing anything. White pride movements exist.

They’re not comparable to the movements I was talking about.

They definitely are comparable. Because a large proportion of people are interpreting pro-black movements as being black-superiority.

What was once about being confident in who you are, has been hijacked by people with extreme views who are turning it into “us” vs “them”.

I’ve lost track of the amount of times I’ve been told I need to pick a side, or that I don’t count as black by my friends who have adopted these views. It’s crazy.

I can’t even share what they say about non-black people because it’s racist and obviously that’s not allowed on this forum. But you can 100% compare “white pride” and “black pride” sadly. In so much as they can both be used for good and bad

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

If white people started a white pride movement kinda suggests that you don’t see my point. Which is fine.

So is pride in your race limited to those of a certain race? And is racism exclusively limited to a certain race?Because history seems to say differently, it's a human problem, Mrs x

Racial pride isn't a healthy feeling.

I’m not barring anyone from doing anything. White pride movements exist.

They’re not comparable to the movements I was talking about.

They definitely are comparable. Because a large proportion of people are interpreting pro-black movements as being black-superiority.

What was once about being confident in who you are, has been hijacked by people with extreme views who are turning it into “us” vs “them”.

I’ve lost track of the amount of times I’ve been told I need to pick a side, or that I don’t count as black by my friends who have adopted these views. It’s crazy.

‘A large proportion of people’

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

"I think that if you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem. If you are colour blind then you are blind to the issues that POC face every day. Thats white privilege in a nutshell."

You get it

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
48 weeks ago

"It’s definitely a harmful mindset to have; I’m a radical feminist but even I know my struggles as a white woman are incomparable to those of a black woman; while some things overlap I have to also acknowledge that black women face significant difficulties simply due to their race.

It gives me the ick when people are like ‘I see one race: the human race’ BROTHER EWWWW"

There literally is one race. Ethnicity isn’t the same as race. The idea of different races is the same as saying there are different “species”.

The idea of “race” is the same concept that hitler used. Nah we really are all one human race.

If you want to talk about ethnicities cool. Obviously we have different ethnicities and cultures. But we aren’t all different species with vast huge differences between us

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

It gives me the ick when people are like ‘I see one race: the human race’ BROTHER EWWWW"

‘There’s only one race-‘

‘Sharrup! Kmt

’

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
48 weeks ago

It gives me the ick when people are like ‘I see one race: the human race’ BROTHER EWWWW

‘There’s only one race-‘

‘Sharrup! Kmt

’"

Brother ewww what’s that brother? Brother ewwww

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

It gives me the ick when people are like ‘I see one race: the human race’ BROTHER EWWWW

There literally is one race. Ethnicity isn’t the same as race. The idea of different races is the same as saying there are different “species”.

The idea of “race” is the same concept that hitler used. Nah we really are all one human race.

If you want to talk about ethnicities cool. Obviously we have different ethnicities and cultures. But we aren’t all different species with vast huge differences between us"

Race, like gender, is socially constructed, yes. But like gender, it is REAL. It is made real in society and it has REAL consequences. Pretending to ignore that is harmful and is also annoying

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
48 weeks ago

If white people started a white pride movement kinda suggests that you don’t see my point. Which is fine.

So is pride in your race limited to those of a certain race? And is racism exclusively limited to a certain race?Because history seems to say differently, it's a human problem, Mrs x

Racial pride isn't a healthy feeling.

I’m not barring anyone from doing anything. White pride movements exist.

They’re not comparable to the movements I was talking about.

They definitely are comparable. Because a large proportion of people are interpreting pro-black movements as being black-superiority.

What was once about being confident in who you are, has been hijacked by people with extreme views who are turning it into “us” vs “them”.

I’ve lost track of the amount of times I’ve been told I need to pick a side, or that I don’t count as black by my friends who have adopted these views. It’s crazy.

‘A large proportion of people’

Yes a large proportion.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ealitybitesMan
48 weeks ago

Belfast

I couldn't disagree more.

I grew up in a society that was rife with religious bigotry and being part of the solution involved taking up arms.

I'm very proud of the fact that I was never part of that solution and have no time for those who were.

At the same time I was never part of the problem and I have no time for anyone who tells me otherwise.

It's like those stupid fab phrases about idiot men ruining it for the rest of us or people telling us that we need to speak out on issues in an anonymous forum that the vast majority of users don't even know exist and those who do aren't going to change their behaviour because someone in a different country with entirely different experiences says so.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

If white people started a white pride movement kinda suggests that you don’t see my point. Which is fine.

So is pride in your race limited to those of a certain race? And is racism exclusively limited to a certain race?Because history seems to say differently, it's a human problem, Mrs x

Racial pride isn't a healthy feeling.

I’m not barring anyone from doing anything. White pride movements exist.

They’re not comparable to the movements I was talking about.

They definitely are comparable. Because a large proportion of people are interpreting pro-black movements as being black-superiority.

What was once about being confident in who you are, has been hijacked by people with extreme views who are turning it into “us” vs “them”.

I’ve lost track of the amount of times I’ve been told I need to pick a side, or that I don’t count as black by my friends who have adopted these views. It’s crazy.

‘A large proportion of people’

Yes a large proportion. "

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ortyairCouple
48 weeks ago

Wallasey

If white people started a white pride movement kinda suggests that you don’t see my point. Which is fine.

So is pride in your race limited to those of a certain race? And is racism exclusively limited to a certain race?Because history seems to say differently, it's a human problem, Mrs x

Racial pride isn't a healthy feeling.

I’m not barring anyone from doing anything. White pride movements exist.

They’re not comparable to the movements I was talking about.

"
I do agree that they are not comparable. From the little I've seen and read about Black Pride, it's much more a celebration of your race and heritage, whilst acknowledging and educating others on what your race suffered.

Anything to do with being white, and more importantly English, has been hijacked by the far right and allowed groups like the NF to spout vile hatred it did.

Mrs x

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

I couldn't disagree more.

I grew up in a society that was rife with religious bigotry and being part of the solution involved taking up arms.

I'm very proud of the fact that I was never part of that solution and have no time for those who were.

At the same time I was never part of the problem and I have no time for anyone who tells me otherwise.

With respect to your experience, what’s being said here is not that. This solution doesn’t involve taking up arms. And tbh this belief (that inaction is not helpful) has been said by many.

To quote MLK:

‘We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the hateful words and actions of the bad people but for the appalling silence of the good people.‘

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
48 weeks ago

I couldn't disagree more.

I grew up in a society that was rife with religious bigotry and being part of the solution involved taking up arms.

I'm very proud of the fact that I was never part of that solution and have no time for those who were.

At the same time I was never part of the problem and I have no time for anyone who tells me otherwise.

With respect to your experience, what’s being said here is not that. This solution doesn’t involve taking up arms. And tbh this belief (that inaction is not helpful) has been said by many.

To quote MLK:

‘We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the hateful words and actions of the bad people but for the appalling silence of the good people.‘"

MLK has nothing to do with the UK or the present day.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *agneto.Man
48 weeks ago

Bham

I don't think about race at all. I am what I am. Don't like it, whatever. I don't think dwelling on race and wanting people to acknowledge previous discrimination is healthy. I think if everyone was just accepting and non judgemental of everyone, regardless of their culture, we'd all get on.

Maintaining differences and wanting differences to be continually referenced doesn't overcome the issue, just keeps it going perpetually.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ostindreamsMan
48 weeks ago

London

That's a pretty high bar you are setting there. There are numerous problems in the society. No one has time to be part of solutions to everything. People have their own battles they face in their lives. These people aren't part of the problem even if they aren't part of the solution.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

I couldn't disagree more.

I grew up in a society that was rife with religious bigotry and being part of the solution involved taking up arms.

I'm very proud of the fact that I was never part of that solution and have no time for those who were.

At the same time I was never part of the problem and I have no time for anyone who tells me otherwise.

With respect to your experience, what’s being said here is not that. This solution doesn’t involve taking up arms. And tbh this belief (that inaction is not helpful) has been said by many.

To quote MLK:

‘We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the hateful words and actions of the bad people but for the appalling silence of the good people.‘

MLK has nothing to do with the UK or the present day."

That is so completely untrue

you cannot be serious rn?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *atnip make me purrWoman
48 weeks ago

Reading

I couldn't disagree more.

I grew up in a society that was rife with religious bigotry and being part of the solution involved taking up arms.

I'm very proud of the fact that I was never part of that solution and have no time for those who were.

At the same time I was never part of the problem and I have no time for anyone who tells me otherwise.

Yes some took up arms to solve the issue but that doesnt mean it was the only solution. I am not talking about this forum but of educating ourselves outside of our little bubble. Recognising the struggle, of POC. Of women, the disabled, the queer. All of the people who face discrimination on a daily basis.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
48 weeks ago

I think that depends on what you count as being “part of the solution”

For most people that just leans treating everyone with respect. There’s always going to be a minority that say that isn’t enough of a solution, but they are the minority for a reason.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *heGateKeeperMan
48 weeks ago

Stratford

I don’t know enough about The Troubles to speak on it with any degree of confidence.

Recognising that religion and not race was the determining factor there, similarly to the example with the Rwandan Civil War referenced earlier, it surely goes to the point about the impact of race and bias. If you don’t know how you feel about someone, or you shift your initial stance once you ask if they are Catholic or Protestant imagine how that is for people of colour who often afforded a questionnaire prior to someone making a judgement on them.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ostindreamsMan
48 weeks ago

London

I think that depends on what you count as being “part of the solution”

For most people that just leans treating everyone with respect. There’s always going to be a minority that say that isn’t enough of a solution, but they are the minority for a reason.

Agree that "being part of the solution" is a vague term. But I have hardly come across anyone who uses this term frequently but being happy with me just treating people fairly and going on with my life.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ealitybitesMan
48 weeks ago

Belfast

I couldn't disagree more.

I grew up in a society that was rife with religious bigotry and being part of the solution involved taking up arms.

I'm very proud of the fact that I was never part of that solution and have no time for those who were.

At the same time I was never part of the problem and I have no time for anyone who tells me otherwise.

With respect to your experience, what’s being said here is not that. This solution doesn’t involve taking up arms. And tbh this belief (that inaction is not helpful) has been said by many.

To quote MLK:

‘We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the hateful words and actions of the bad people but for the appalling silence of the good people.‘"

But yet it's an even more dismissive trope than being blind to race.

It's a smug lazy comment that has zero interest in the fact that there are many many reasons that people cannot and will not be part of a solution.

The example I gave was one problem with one solution.

Other problems and solutions are not relevant to me so I will not be part of any solution even if narrow-minded people think that makes me part of the problem.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

I couldn't disagree more.

I grew up in a society that was rife with religious bigotry and being part of the solution involved taking up arms.

I'm very proud of the fact that I was never part of that solution and have no time for those who were.

At the same time I was never part of the problem and I have no time for anyone who tells me otherwise.

With respect to your experience, what’s being said here is not that. This solution doesn’t involve taking up arms. And tbh this belief (that inaction is not helpful) has been said by many.

To quote MLK:

‘We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the hateful words and actions of the bad people but for the appalling silence of the good people.‘

But yet it's an even more dismissive trope than being blind to race.

It's a smug lazy comment that has zero interest in the fact that there are many many reasons that people cannot and will not be part of a solution.

The example I gave was one problem with one solution.

Other problems and solutions are not relevant to me so I will not be part of any solution even if narrow-minded people think that makes me part of the problem.

Don’t be part of the solution then

it’s not by force?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
48 weeks ago

I couldn't disagree more.

I grew up in a society that was rife with religious bigotry and being part of the solution involved taking up arms.

I'm very proud of the fact that I was never part of that solution and have no time for those who were.

At the same time I was never part of the problem and I have no time for anyone who tells me otherwise.

With respect to your experience, what’s being said here is not that. This solution doesn’t involve taking up arms. And tbh this belief (that inaction is not helpful) has been said by many.

To quote MLK:

‘We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the hateful words and actions of the bad people but for the appalling silence of the good people.‘

But yet it's an even more dismissive trope than being blind to race.

It's a smug lazy comment that has zero interest in the fact that there are many many reasons that people cannot and will not be part of a solution.

The example I gave was one problem with one solution.

Other problems and solutions are not relevant to me so I will not be part of any solution even if narrow-minded people think that makes me part of the problem.

Don’t be part of the solution then

it’s not by force?"

“The solution”…. Reminds me of someone else who used a phrase similar to that.

Truth is there isn’t a one size fits all thing and you need to stop thinking your point of view is the only “solution”

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
48 weeks ago

But actually we need to acknowledge it, and acknowledge that people of different races will have different world views, privileges etc. "

I think this is a great response - i used to say to myself that i didn't see /recognise race and treated everyone 'equally' because i didn't really understand the importance of 'equity'... Now i realise that its important to celebrate our differences and also recognise our similarities - there is an amazing clip on you tube that is spot on, i wish we could add links!

I learn every day and probably often get it wrong

but genuinely do have good intentions

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *lackjack1stMan
48 weeks ago

London

I am more Malcolm X than MLK, but when he was more mellower.

Too many people call the race card out way too early in a conversation while as mentioned many people pretend the are colour blind, usually have no diverse friends.

The general rule of thumb for me is Race, Religion , sexual orientation a lone should not definite who you are.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *heGateKeeperMan
48 weeks ago

Stratford

"I am more Malcolm X than MLK, but when he was more mellower.

Too many people call the race card out way too early in a conversation while as mentioned many people pretend the are colour blind, usually have no diverse friends.

The general rule of thumb for me is Race, Religion , sexual orientation a lone should not definite who you are."

The ‘race card’ is a super interesting concept. Even more so now that we often hear about how marginalised and oppressed hetrosexual white males are, but without any mention of a race card.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

"I am more Malcolm X than MLK, but when he was more mellower.

Too many people call the race card out way too early in a conversation while as mentioned many people pretend the are colour blind, usually have no diverse friends.

The general rule of thumb for me is Race, Religion , sexual orientation a lone should not definite who you are.

The ‘race card’ is a super interesting concept. Even more so now that we often hear about how marginalised and oppressed hetrosexual white males are, but without any mention of a race card."

No because their concerns are actually serious

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *electableicecreamMan
48 weeks ago

The West

Following this. Very interesting and educational discussion.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *eftariiMan
48 weeks ago

Dublin

There's only one race-human. But there are different ethnicities.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *abioMan
48 weeks ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

Anyway I have ended up thinking a lot about the colour blind approach that people have to race. To me it’s harmful. What do you think? "

It depends on what you mean by colour blind…

For there to be any progress there had to be an acknowledgment that racism does exist.. and not everyone is treated the same in society

Conscious and Un-conscious biases…….

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *electableicecreamMan
48 weeks ago

The West

I hadn't actually heard the phrase colour blind before I read this post

My question is as follows and

please forgive any naivete on my part here.

There is a tacit implication in the premise of this thread that any person who declares themself colour blind are in fact racist by virtue of being part of problem because they are denying that racism exist.

Are they denying that racism exist?

Are they not just saying that they themselves are not a racist and treat everyone equally?

Ok that was two questions.

I'm asking because it doesn't automatically follow for me that someone saying they don't see race means that they are denying that racism exists. It just looks like a well meaning phrase without any implications attached to it.

What am I missing?

I also want to respond to the comments above about white pride being on equal terms as black pride. It isn't. We all know what these terms mean and the reasons they were necessary. White pride, like it or not, is the province of the far right and is and will continue to be associated with racism, nationalism and prejudice.

And while some pride movements do go too far as described above. They don't all go that far. Gay pride being a global example.

The history of our races is important context in what we create and how we make decisions as a society and this is true in art, entertainment, politics, culture and education.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *heGateKeeperMan
48 weeks ago

Stratford

I don’t think it’s implicitly saying that racism doesn’t exist, but it is overlooking, or in my opinion, downplaying a significant part of a persons identity, individualism and what makes them them in the wider social construct. It’s easy to say ‘I chose not to see colour’ but people of colour have to live with the implications, whether you see or not.

(IMO) Being black, living with a disability, being a woman in the work place and many all comes with challenges of acceptance and they have to be recognised and understood.

Oh and don’t get me started on the ‘I don’t care if you’re black, white, purple or green’ brigade

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
48 weeks ago

"I hadn't actually heard the phrase colour blind before I read this post

My question is as follows and

please forgive any naivete on my part here.

Are they denying that racism exist?

Are they not just saying that they themselves are not a racist and treat everyone equally?

Ok that was two questions.

What am I missing? "

My view of it is that it is only white people who do this...by applying white privilege to both parties, we believe we are levelling the playing field, but in reality we are actually denying the real everyday struggle that other races face and we are also not recognising the importance, difference and significance of their culture?

I really enjoy these threads, they are very thought provoking and uncomfortable

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *emorefridaCouple
48 weeks ago

La la land

Hmm I don't know, but I might be totally biased at this moment in time, due to being massively impacted by discrimination in the workplace. At this moment in time I just wanted to be treated equally, and to be seen the same as my male colleagues.

I know lots of people understand the ideas of equality and I think that this is the idea behind I treat everyone the same rhetoric. And it's kind of in everyday language like equality and diversity etc.

I think less people understand equity, which I think is what you're getting at in your post? It's sometimes more difficult to understand that different people's starting points are in different places. Equality is good but it does have it's limitations.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ortyairCouple
48 weeks ago

Wallasey

I've heard it before but don't know what it means.

What exactly is 'white priviledge'?, Mrs x

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
48 weeks ago

"I've heard it before but don't know what it means.

What exactly is 'white priviledge'?, Mrs x"

White privilege" refers to the societal advantages that white people benefit from simply because they are perceived as being white, compared to people of color. These advantages are often invisible or taken for granted by those who possess them. White privilege can manifest in various ways, including access to better education, employment opportunities, healthcare, housing, and legal treatment.

The concept of white privilege does not suggest that all white people lead privileged lives or that they have not faced hardships or struggles. Rather, it highlights systemic inequalities and biases that favor whiteness in society. White privilege can perpetuate disparities in wealth, power, and social status between racial groups, contributing to systemic racism and injustice.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ostindreamsMan
48 weeks ago

London

I hadn't actually heard the phrase colour blind before I read this post

My question is as follows and

please forgive any naivete on my part here.

Are they denying that racism exist?

Are they not just saying that they themselves are not a racist and treat everyone equally?

Ok that was two questions.

What am I missing?

And while some pride movements do go too far as described above. They don't all go that far. Gay pride being a global example.

The history of our races is important context in what we create and how we make decisions as a society and this is true in art, entertainment, politics, culture and education."

No one denies what the differences between the movements are. Our point is that ethnic pride itself is a problematic feeling that results in bad things. You can point out historic oppression and celebrate cultural heritage without indulging in ethnic pride.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *heGateKeeperMan
48 weeks ago

Stratford

"I've heard it before but don't know what it means.

What exactly is 'white priviledge'?, Mrs x

I think the second paragraph is a pivotal point because the argument that’s often made is ‘well I faced *insert struggle here*, where was my white privilege then?’.

It’s the notion that we all face issues and challenges, and the colour of your skin isn’t a contributing, component or compounding factor in that particular struggle faced.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ortyairCouple
48 weeks ago

Wallasey

"I've heard it before but don't know what it means.

What exactly is 'white priviledge'?, Mrs x

Acknowledging and understanding white privilege is essential for promoting equality and working towards a more just society. It involves recognizing and challenging the ways in which systemic advantages based on race operate in various social institutions and everyday interactions. By addressing white privilege, individuals and societies can strive towards greater equity and inclusivity for all"
So this article surely explains Socio Economic privileges. What actual privileges do white, working class people have over other races. Where are these better houses, jobs and education for white people? Can anyone actually point out a scheme that working whites can make us of to gain these privileges?

These actual privileges belong to the 'haves' not the 'have nots' regardless of colour.

As a middle aged (ahem), white, woman, I have never come across any of these theoretical privileges and neither have any of my family or friends.

I'm not saying these privileges do not exist but they are only for a tiny majority of the population and the majority should not be blanketed with the notion that they belong to them because they absolutely do not, Mrs x

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

"So this article surely explains Socio Economic privileges. What actual privileges do white, working class people have over other races. Where are these better houses, jobs and education for white people? Can anyone actually point out a scheme that working whites can make us of to gain these privileges?

These actual privileges belong to the 'haves' not the 'have nots' regardless of colour.

As a middle aged (ahem), white, woman, I have never come across any of these theoretical privileges and neither have any of my family or friends.

Well I man take for example the laws in this country that have made it near on impossible for Black people to rent/ buy property… the inequalities in getting jobs (this still exists amongst equally qualified people).

Also, White working class people are more privileged than Black working class people, who exist (!!!) who also suffer the inequalities of racism and classism.

There is simply no denying that racism exists on not only an individual level but on a systematic/ structural level in this country as well as the US (where I think it’s clear that definition is based on). The point of white privilege is that if you believe that white supremacy exists or structural/ systematic racism exists, you have to acknowledge that the privilege of being white or racialised as white means that you don’t experience racism nor do you have to overcome the issues of racism.

There’s health inequalities too. That we haven’t even begun to mention. This is historic. It’s present. It’s future. Unless something changes. And nothing is changing.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

The laws in the post above are historic I’m obviously not talking present day. But it has an impact.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
48 weeks ago

These actual privileges belong to the 'haves' not the 'have nots' regardless of colour.

As a middle aged (ahem), white, woman, I have never come across any of these theoretical privileges and neither have any of my family or friends.

Something that is easily Google-able is the different treatment black women receive through their pregnancy and when giving birth.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

These actual privileges belong to the 'haves' not the 'have nots' regardless of colour.

As a middle aged (ahem), white, woman, I have never come across any of these theoretical privileges and neither have any of my family or friends.

Something that is easily Google-able is the different treatment black women receive through their pregnancy and when giving birth. "

Which, a few years ago the government acknowledged in a report and stated they had set no goal to change this.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *emorefridaCouple
48 weeks ago

La la land

These actual privileges belong to the 'haves' not the 'have nots' regardless of colour.

As a middle aged (ahem), white, woman, I have never come across any of these theoretical privileges and neither have any of my family or friends.

Also, White working class people are more privileged than Black working class people, who exist (!!!) who also suffer the inequalities of racism and classism.

There’s health inequalities too. That we haven’t even begun to mention. This is historic. It’s present. It’s future. Unless something changes. And nothing is changing. "

The stats on pregnancy outcomes are truly horrific.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

[Removed by poster at 09/02/24 17:14:39]

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

These actual privileges belong to the 'haves' not the 'have nots' regardless of colour.

As a middle aged (ahem), white, woman, I have never come across any of these theoretical privileges and neither have any of my family or friends.

Something that is easily Google-able is the different treatment black women receive through their pregnancy and when giving birth.

Which, a few years ago the government acknowledged in a report and stated they had set no goal to change this. "

Specifically the article stated

‘The death rate for Black women in childbirth is five times higher than for white women. The NHS acknowledge and regret this disparity but have no target to end it. The Government must introduce a target to end the disparity in maternal mortality between Black women and white women.‘

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

Page 17

https://committees.parliament.uk/publications/3376/documents/32359/default/

Is an interesting read altogether

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ortyairCouple
48 weeks ago

Wallasey

These actual privileges belong to the 'haves' not the 'have nots' regardless of colour.

As a middle aged (ahem), white, woman, I have never come across any of these theoretical privileges and neither have any of my family or friends.

Also, White working class people are more privileged than Black working class people, who exist (!!!) who also suffer the inequalities of racism and classism.

There’s health inequalities too. That we haven’t even begun to mention. This is historic. It’s present. It’s future. Unless something changes. And nothing is changing. "
So what law prohibits poc buying property? Name it so I can see for myself. What jobs aren't available, there are quotas in some sectors to employ people of a more diverse background. None for white people.

As for working class. There is no privilege there for black or white. We all go hungry at times, we don't get to do the things other more affluent people do. No new cars or holidays. And yes like I said I have not suffered racism but I have suffered from a lack of opportunity.

And as for health, that's very much a postcode lottery, were in the main Northeners are discriminated more than southerners.

So we're are these actual privileges that working class people who are white have over working class black people?

I'm not trying to be confrontational but I find it difficult being told this is my reality from someone who doesn't know me or my circumstances. Yet I do agree with you that racism does exist.

My half of the population has struggled far greater than the male half.

So when you talk of privilege, look at the privilege of men over women. Try being a woman of any colour, Mrs x

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *emorefridaCouple
48 weeks ago

La la land

"Page 17

https://committees.parliament.uk/publications/3376/documents/32359/default/

Is an interesting read altogether"

Ta Steve, we discuss this in one of my lectures, but I actually didn't know there was no government target. It will now be added for next year's.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
48 weeks ago

These actual privileges belong to the 'haves' not the 'have nots' regardless of colour.

As a middle aged (ahem), white, woman, I have never come across any of these theoretical privileges and neither have any of my family or friends.

Also, White working class people are more privileged than Black working class people, who exist (!!!) who also suffer the inequalities of racism and classism.

There’s health inequalities too. That we haven’t even begun to mention. This is historic. It’s present. It’s future. Unless something changes. And nothing is changing.

The stats on pregnancy outcomes are truly horrific. "

I mean i was speechless when i first read about it and truly struggled to reconcile it - esp the fact that black women are not believed to feel pain or be in as much pain as white people - it is mind blowing - isn't it??

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *emorefridaCouple
48 weeks ago

La la land

These actual privileges belong to the 'haves' not the 'have nots' regardless of colour.

As a middle aged (ahem), white, woman, I have never come across any of these theoretical privileges and neither have any of my family or friends.

Also, White working class people are more privileged than Black working class people, who exist (!!!) who also suffer the inequalities of racism and classism.

There’s health inequalities too. That we haven’t even begun to mention. This is historic. It’s present. It’s future. Unless something changes. And nothing is changing.

The stats on pregnancy outcomes are truly horrific.

It's absolutely ridiculous, and I mean women in general are told to grin and bare it with pain and it's bloody awful. Add to that if you are not white. And it can't just be pregnancy it must impact things like endometriosis diagnosis, menopause help etc. Just that there are probably no stats on it.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
48 weeks ago

These actual privileges belong to the 'haves' not the 'have nots' regardless of colour.

As a middle aged (ahem), white, woman, I have never come across any of these theoretical privileges and neither have any of my family or friends.

Also, White working class people are more privileged than Black working class people, who exist (!!!) who also suffer the inequalities of racism and classism.

There’s health inequalities too. That we haven’t even begun to mention. This is historic. It’s present. It’s future. Unless something changes. And nothing is changing. So what law prohibits poc buying property? Name it so I can see for myself. What jobs aren't available, there are quotas in some sectors to employ people of a more diverse background. None for white people.

And as for health, that's very much a postcode lottery, were in the main Northeners are discriminated more than southerners.

So we're are these actual privileges that working class people who are white have over working class black people?

I'm not trying to be confrontational but I find it difficult being told this is my reality from someone who doesn't know me or my circumstances. Yet I do agree with you that racism does exist.

My half of the population has struggled far greater than the male half.

So when you talk of privilege, look at the privilege of men over women. Try being a woman of any colour, Mrs x"

A) ‘I have not suffered racism’ I think is you explaining white privilege to yourself really.

B) I have male privilege as a man. I am not disputing that. I do not dispute that. That wasn’t a take down if you thought it was.

C) I did say that the legislation was historic but would obviously have impacts in terms of generational wealth, opportunities etc.

D) being northern is not the same health inequalities as being Black. And again- Black northerners? They exist!!