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"I'm not sure this makes sense as a question." It's just a right wing talking point, a way to attack measures that are taken to encourage more diversity in particular jobs, on the assumption equality of opportunity is as simple as being allowed to apply. | |||
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"What do you mean by equality of outcome? My interpretation is that you mean equality of remuneration, but please correct me if I'm wrong. " Not necessarily only just remuneration. Another way of phrasing it would be the difference between equality and equity? Equality means each individual or group of people is given the same resources or opportunities. Equity recognizes that each person has different circumstances and allocates the exact resources and opportunities needed to reach an equal outcome | |||
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"Strongly disagree. Positive discrimination is still wrong. " Yup, how many royals have joined the military as part of their lower ranks, i.e not officers? | |||
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"What do you mean by equality of outcome? My interpretation is that you mean equality of remuneration, but please correct me if I'm wrong. Not necessarily only just remuneration. Another way of phrasing it would be the difference between equality and equity? Equality means each individual or group of people is given the same resources or opportunities. Equity recognizes that each person has different circumstances and allocates the exact resources and opportunities needed to reach an equal outcome " Still struggling to understand the question, probably because I’ve had a long day and my brain isn’t working. I think the point you raise about the difference between equality and equity is the right one and is well displayed visually in numerous cartoons available on line depicting the difference between equality, equity and justice  | |||
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"What do you mean by equality of outcome? My interpretation is that you mean equality of remuneration, but please correct me if I'm wrong. Not necessarily only just remuneration. Another way of phrasing it would be the difference between equality and equity? Equality means each individual or group of people is given the same resources or opportunities. Equity recognizes that each person has different circumstances and allocates the exact resources and opportunities needed to reach an equal outcome Still struggling to understand the question, probably because I’ve had a long day and my brain isn’t working. I think the point you raise about the difference between equality and equity is the right one and is well displayed visually in numerous cartoons available on line depicting the difference between equality, equity and justice "The pictorial examples are good ones... I've just been having a chat with someone very senior about the whole equality/equity thing. | |||
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"In an ideal world everyone should have equal opportunities. The outcome surely depends on the individual, so it will not be equal. But will vary due to the the time or effort or enthusiasm or skill involved. "But equal opportunity is putting everyone at the top of the same flight of stairs and asking them to go to the ground floor. Everyone has the opportunity to use the stairs. But not everyone has the ability to use the stairs. Equity would be providing a variety of ways to get from the upper floor to the ground floor, e.g. stairs, lift and ramp. | |||
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"In an ideal world everyone should have equal opportunities. The outcome surely depends on the individual, so it will not be equal. But will vary due to the the time or effort or enthusiasm or skill involved.
But equal opportunity is putting everyone at the top of the same flight of stairs and asking them to go to the ground floor. Everyone has the opportunity to use the stairs. But not everyone has the ability to use the stairs.
Equity would be providing a variety of ways to get from the upper floor to the ground floor, e.g. stairs, lift and ramp. "Doesn’t it depend how you define opportunity then? I wouldn’t consider putting everyone at a flight of stairs equal opportunity if someone can’t use the stairs Things should be put in place so that they can have a fair shot But the outcome should still be based on measurable metrics, not making sure everyone gets an equal outcome | |||
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"In an ideal world everyone should have equal opportunities. The outcome surely depends on the individual, so it will not be equal. But will vary due to the the time or effort or enthusiasm or skill involved.
But equal opportunity is putting everyone at the top of the same flight of stairs and asking them to go to the ground floor. Everyone has the opportunity to use the stairs. But not everyone has the ability to use the stairs.
Equity would be providing a variety of ways to get from the upper floor to the ground floor, e.g. stairs, lift and ramp. "That's getting down to nitty gritty and way past what most people understand as 'equal opportunity'. Equity in your example would be fair, in other examples it wouldn't be. For example, in employment, should we be equitable towards someone who can't physically be a firefighter? | |||
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"Vine, are you working for Sydney Uni "Damn, you rumbled me and my research into epistemology. | |||
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"In an ideal world everyone should have equal opportunities. The outcome surely depends on the individual, so it will not be equal. But will vary due to the the time or effort or enthusiasm or skill involved.
But equal opportunity is putting everyone at the top of the same flight of stairs and asking them to go to the ground floor. Everyone has the opportunity to use the stairs. But not everyone has the ability to use the stairs.
Equity would be providing a variety of ways to get from the upper floor to the ground floor, e.g. stairs, lift and ramp.
Doesn’t it depend how you define opportunity then?
I wouldn’t consider putting everyone at a flight of stairs equal opportunity if someone can’t use the stairs
Things should be put in place so that they can have a fair shot
But the outcome should still be based on measurable metrics, not making sure everyone gets an equal outcome "Many disabled people could get down those stairs, but not in an efficient way, or only by causing themselves pain or endangering their safety. But they could potentially get from top to bottom, e.g. by bumping down on their bum or by falling down them. They're still getting from top to bottom, which was the task set. Obviously, that's not a practical or sensible way to complete the task, so instead, we provide alternative (safe) means to complete the task. It's a bit like providing mechanical lifting equipment rather expecting people to lift incredibly heavy loads (which they used to do in the past, perhaps, causing people injury). Equity is making it feasibly possible for all participants to achieve the task (get downstairs). Each person might achieve it differently, using different tools, but that doesn't matter. Yes, there are tasks or jobs that require a certain level of physical ability or whatever. Someone mentioned being a firefighter. Of course, not every task or role can be safely and sensibly made equitable. But many roles and tasks CAN, but too many people lack the foresight to see this. | |||
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"Strongly disagree. The almost fanatical push of equality of outcome is one of the reasons the west is in steep decline. Got to tick that all important DEI box." Because the repressive eastern regimes are doing significantly better? | |||
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Joking aside, I still disagree strongly.
In Utopia, we'd all have equal opportunity. Given that scenario, meritocracy is more my philosophy and outcome should reflect the effort applied.
M | |||
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"Strongly disagree. The almost fanatical push of equality of outcome is one of the reasons the west is in steep decline. Got to tick that all important DEI box. Because the repressive eastern regimes are doing significantly better?" If you mean the countries I think you do, you'll see that in terms of economic growth and scientific progress they're trouncing the west. By the way, the majority of their citizens don't see their governments as "repressive". | |||
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"Strongly disagree. The almost fanatical push of equality..... Because the repressive eastern regimes are doing significantly better?" Thought you'd said 'hesitate to get involved'.
M | |||
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"Strongly disagree. The almost fanatical push of equality of outcome is one of the reasons the west is in steep decline. Got to tick that all important DEI box. Because the repressive eastern regimes are doing significantly better? If you mean the countries I think you do, you'll see that in terms of economic growth and scientific progress they're trouncing the west. By the way, the majority of their citizens don't see their governments as "repressive"." What countries are those? Not that I doubt, I just can’t think of any countries that are pushing an “equality of outcome” mindset at all | |||
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"..... If you mean the countries I think you do, you'll see that in terms of economic growth and scientific progress they're trouncing the west. By the way, the majority of their citizens don't see their governments as "repressive"." I strongly concur with this. I've lived in some of those countries and the people do not feel repressed. I'd go so far as to say that they defend their governments, vociferously, for the economic miracle that has come to pass for them. Some have voted to keep these 'repressive' governments in power for decades. M | |||
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"I still don’t get the question "It's early and the morning caffeine hasn't kicked in yet.
M | |||
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"Strongly disagree. The almost fanatical push of equality of outcome is one of the reasons the west is in steep decline. Got to tick that all important DEI box. Because the repressive eastern regimes are doing significantly better? If you mean the countries I think you do, you'll see that in terms of economic growth and scientific progress they're trouncing the west. By the way, the majority of their citizens don't see their governments as "repressive". What countries are those? Not that I doubt, I just can’t think of any countries that are pushing an “equality of outcome” mindset at all " He's likely referring to the "axis of evil' Russia, China, Iran, etc. | |||
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"..... If you mean the countries I think you do, you'll see that in terms of economic growth and scientific progress they're trouncing the west. By the way, the majority of their citizens don't see their governments as "repressive". I strongly concur with this. I've lived in some of those countries and the people do not feel repressed. I'd go so far as to say that they defend their governments, vociferously, for the economic miracle that has come to pass for them. Some have voted to keep these 'repressive' governments in power for decades. M" People in these countries have a different mindset and outlook. People in the west continue to judge them on "our" standards and conceptions. | |||
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"Strongly disagree. The almost fanatical push of equality of outcome is one of the reasons the west is in steep decline. Got to tick that all important DEI box. Because the repressive eastern regimes are doing significantly better? If you mean the countries I think you do, you'll see that in terms of economic growth and scientific progress they're trouncing the west. By the way, the majority of their citizens don't see their governments as "repressive". What countries are those? Not that I doubt, I just can’t think of any countries that are pushing an “equality of outcome” mindset at all He's likely referring to the "axis of evil' Russia, China, Iran, etc." I don’t think he is because they definitely don’t fit that description China has a social credit score where your literally scored on actions and dealt with accordingly I think he means Scandinavian possibly? | |||
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"Say whether you Agree strongly, Agree, Agree slightly, Are Neutral, Disagree slightly, Disagree, or Disagree strongly with the claim in the title. Give reasons for your opinion" Disagree, not everyone has the same skills or experience | |||
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"Strongly disagree. The almost fanatical push of equality of outcome is one of the reasons the west is in steep decline. Got to tick that all important DEI box. Because the repressive eastern regimes are doing significantly better? If you mean the countries I think you do, you'll see that in terms of economic growth and scientific progress they're trouncing the west. By the way, the majority of their citizens don't see their governments as "repressive". What countries are those? Not that I doubt, I just can’t think of any countries that are pushing an “equality of outcome” mindset at all He's likely referring to the "axis of evil' Russia, China, Iran, etc. I don’t think he is because they definitely don’t fit that description China has a social credit score where your literally scored on actions and dealt with accordingly I think he means Scandinavian possibly?" I meant the repressive eastern regimes. Iran, Russia, China as always depicted as such. They pay no attention to western DEI concepts. | |||
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"Strongly disagree. The almost fanatical push of equality of outcome is one of the reasons the west is in steep decline. Got to tick that all important DEI box. Because the repressive eastern regimes are doing significantly better? If you mean the countries I think you do, you'll see that in terms of economic growth and scientific progress they're trouncing the west. By the way, the majority of their citizens don't see their governments as "repressive". What countries are those? Not that I doubt, I just can’t think of any countries that are pushing an “equality of outcome” mindset at all He's likely referring to the "axis of evil' Russia, China, Iran, etc. I don’t think he is because they definitely don’t fit that description China has a social credit score where your literally scored on actions and dealt with accordingly I think he means Scandinavian possibly? I meant the repressive eastern regimes. Iran, Russia, China as always depicted as such. They pay no attention to western DEI concepts." Sorry if I’m getting confused Russia Iran and china are “ trouncing the west” “ in terms of economic growth and scientific progress” | |||
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"Strongly disagree. The almost fanatical push of equality of outcome is one of the reasons the west is in steep decline. Got to tick that all important DEI box. Because the repressive eastern regimes are doing significantly better? If you mean the countries I think you do, you'll see that in terms of economic growth and scientific progress they're trouncing the west. By the way, the majority of their citizens don't see their governments as "repressive"." The conversation wasn’t about economic and scientific progress, so that wasn’t what the reference was. Like Miles, whilst I concur with the view that those citizens don’t typically see their governments as ‘repressive’, I do by my standards | |||
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"Strongly disagree. The almost fanatical push of equality..... Because the repressive eastern regimes are doing significantly better? Thought you'd said 'hesitate to get involved'.
M" | |||
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"Equality of outcome is more important to me, because anarchy and justice and fuck the patriarchy. " so long as it’s the outcome you want then!? | |||
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"Someone's been watching Jordan Peterson " Actually on this topic I prefer Peter Bogoshian | |||
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