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"They might have some men on their friends list and their status is aimed at them." In which case maybe put on the update, "those on our friends list get in touch, no interested in someone new" | |||
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"Just wish the site was modernised " I actually think the mobile site is really user friendly. | |||
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"People who ignore posters in rate/fab/comment on previous poster threads to try to impress someone further up the thread. " I did not think of that and that is annoying. Some I am sure do it on purpose too. | |||
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"When people don't read my profile and then get arsey." Or say they've read it, when it's very obvious they haven't. | |||
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"People who ignore posters in rate/fab/comment on previous poster threads to try to impress someone further up the thread. I did not think of that and that is annoying. Some I am sure do it on purpose too. " It's understandable on a fast moving thread, but when it's 10 minutes since someone's last post, it's obvious that it's deliberate. Damn it, I should be hoovering up all of that sweet validation that comes from getting the fabs or comments | |||
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"The amount of status updates from the same people……continually complaining about Fab’. Don’t like the place……delete your account. Nothing to complain about. " Mate this is the most jarring thing ever. And the people that post them, Jesus lol no wonder ‘big curvy bbw’ doesn’t get any serious messages, or gets junkies penis pictures, because the delusional profile has more commandments than the Old Testament. No one cares ‘if you’re leaving fab, having a meltdown, deleted all messages, trigger happy on the block button, sick of men not being able to read the bio, having the best time at a club on the weekend.’ lol sign off go feed your multiple felines and wax your tash girl x | |||
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"People who ignore posters in rate/fab/comment on previous poster threads to try to impress someone further up the thread. I did not think of that and that is annoying. Some I am sure do it on purpose too. " That's a good point MB. I'm sure they do it on purpose too | |||
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"People who ignore posters in rate/fab/comment on previous poster threads to try to impress someone further up the thread. " Yep, or worse when you comment on a thread and someone dm's you to tell you how amazing you are yet the same person is fawning over others in the same thread publicly. Makes you feel like the troll under the bridge that does | |||
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"Forum posts from men crying about how nobody replies to their messages The messages Corrr id suck a fart out your arse " Agreed. And yes, you may | |||
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"The amount of status updates from the same people……continually complaining about Fab’. Don’t like the place……delete your account. Nothing to complain about. Mate this is the most jarring thing ever. And the people that post them, Jesus lol no wonder ‘big curvy bbw’ doesn’t get any serious messages, or gets junkies penis pictures, because the delusional profile has more commandments than the Old Testament. No one cares ‘if you’re leaving fab, having a meltdown, deleted all messages, trigger happy on the block button, sick of men not being able to read the bio, having the best time at a club on the weekend.’ lol sign off go feed your multiple felines and wax your tash girl x" ^^^Catty | |||
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"They're doing their own search and only announced it " A sign to get your lunch box out | |||
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"Nope. I'm fine with it all. " I think it's brilliant, just the little things that irk, I put it down to my OCD | |||
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"People who ignore posters in rate/fab/comment on previous poster threads to try to impress someone further up the thread. Yep, or worse when you comment on a thread and someone dm's you to tell you how amazing you are yet the same person is fawning over others in the same thread publicly. Makes you feel like the troll under the bridge that does " High five from under my bridge to under yours! J | |||
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"People who ignore posters in rate/fab/comment on previous poster threads to try to impress someone further up the thread. I did not think of that and that is annoying. Some I am sure do it on purpose too. That's a good point MB. I'm sure they do it on purpose too " Surely you have not experienced that though. I will be surprised | |||
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"I’ll tell you what I hate- fucking women. " Sorry, Steve. I'll try harder *sex chromosomes weep* | |||
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"I’ll tell you what I hate- fucking women. " Send them this way. I love fucking women | |||
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"People who ignore posters in rate/fab/comment on previous poster threads to try to impress someone further up the thread. I did not think of that and that is annoying. Some I am sure do it on purpose too. That's a good point MB. I'm sure they do it on purpose too Surely you have not experienced that though. I will be surprised " When Kai is lurking, you just sit patiently | |||
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"People who ignore posters in rate/fab/comment on previous poster threads to try to impress someone further up the thread. I did not think of that and that is annoying. Some I am sure do it on purpose too. That's a good point MB. I'm sure they do it on purpose too Surely you have not experienced that though. I will be surprised When Kai is lurking, you just sit patiently " As Brucie said, you are my favourite | |||
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"People who ignore posters in rate/fab/comment on previous poster threads to try to impress someone further up the thread. I did not think of that and that is annoying. Some I am sure do it on purpose too. That's a good point MB. I'm sure they do it on purpose too Surely you have not experienced that though. I will be surprised When Kai is lurking, you just sit patiently As Brucie said, you are my favourite " Ps, not the Brucie here. Brucie Forcyth used to say that | |||
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"I love the site but a few little things for someone with a logical mind like mine just dont make sene. For example status updates saying wanting a guy or a big cock or something similar from a woman or couple but have blocked men. " they look for the guy at their pace and approach him | |||
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"Forum posts from men crying about how nobody replies to their messages The messages Corrr id suck a fart out your arse " This made me laugh, reminds me of a similar message I had the other day….. was it you? On a serious note it does amuse me that they think it deserves a decent response. Surely they realise it isn’t good messaging etiquette | |||
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"I’ll tell you what I hate- fucking women. Send them this way. I love fucking women " For the love of Jesus will someone please shag our Jamie here | |||
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"I’ll tell you what I hate- fucking women. Sorry, Steve. I'll try harder *sex chromosomes weep*" I like you | |||
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"I’ll tell you what I hate- fucking women. Send them this way. I love fucking women For the love of Jesus will someone please shag our Jamie here" Go on then, I'll take one for the team I guess | |||
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"I’ll tell you what I hate- fucking women. Send them this way. I love fucking women For the love of Jesus will someone please shag our Jamie here Go on then, I'll take one for the team I guess " You’re very generous. If you want to keep shirts on, lights off and no kissing I understand. | |||
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"I’ll tell you what I hate- fucking women. Send them this way. I love fucking women For the love of Jesus will someone please shag our Jamie here Go on then, I'll take one for the team I guess You’re very generous. If you want to keep shirts on, lights off and no kissing I understand. " Absolutely not! If I'm going to shag you, the light will be on, shirts will be off and I'll kiss you like the gentleman I am. What do you take me for, Hants? | |||
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"A couple that posted a meet , wanting a single guy, bit blocked single men contacting them " And anytime any person on here with a penis, speaks something accurate, the whole forum go attack mode and say bitter for no messages. Il probably get banned for 2 days on here, but legitimately, a percentage of people on here have let the winks get to their head, and then bite saying it’s because no replies/meets etc, obviously creeps will send stupid/parhetic dick pictures, whilst watching 50 shades on repeat in the attic, but don’t presume that’s everyone, and to the ‘sour/bitter/sad as no messages - as if you’re getting any person who’s life isn’t on fab 24/7 would be messaging you anyway…. | |||
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"Lack of people living in the US on this site? ??" surely they have a US site? | |||
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"Not being able to post status updates. Send several messages to Fab, but no response. " if you can't post a status update fab has taken your ability to do it away, you've maybe infringed their rules at some point | |||
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"People who ignore posters in rate/fab/comment on previous poster threads to try to impress someone further up the thread. I did not think of that and that is annoying. Some I am sure do it on purpose too. That's a good point MB. I'm sure they do it on purpose too Surely you have not experienced that though. I will be surprised When Kai is lurking, you just sit patiently " He ignores me full stop ... | |||
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"Not being able to post status updates. Send several messages to Fab, but no response. if you can't post a status update fab has taken your ability to do it away, you've maybe infringed their rules at some point " Oooh ! That explains it ! oops | |||
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"They might have some men on their friends list and their status is aimed at them." | |||
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"When people don't read my profile and then get arsey. Or say they've read it, when it's very obvious they haven't." | |||
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"Can't post pics in the forum, Some people are just rude More men look at my profile than the girls " I think if you could post pictures on the forums, I would stop using the forums | |||
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"Can't post pics in the forum, Some people are just rude More men look at my profile than the girls I think if you could post pictures on the forums, I would stop using the forums" Thank heavens we can't post pictures in the forums! | |||
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"Nothing annoys me. I’m a simple creature, I love Fab " Great boobies too | |||
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"Nothing annoys me. I’m a simple creature, I love Fab Great boobies too " We are SO having that threesome. | |||
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"Lack of gifs & limited emojis " How did anyone live without the bloody things? | |||
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"I can't pick one Lurkers that message off threads they've not commented on. The fact that when you block people they can still see your pics in updates, hot pics etc and they can still read your status in their block list. People that message again after being told they don't for what you're looking for, as if you might have changed your mind or were wrong the first time you told them, or they think you forgot you said it. And probably have written on their profile 'manners don't cost a thing' or some shite about how not replying with a no is fucking rude Dickheads, the behaviour of the ones you rejected, or caught out, or you dared to express a distaste of their actions to. " THIS place is Ted Bundy’s wet dream. And others like him. | |||
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"In the typeface used you can't tell the difference between I and l B" L don't find that to be a problem. L'm perfectly happy with the typeface. | |||
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"Can't post pics in the forum, Some people are just rude More men look at my profile than the girls I think if you could post pictures on the forums, I would stop using the forums" Dear Christ. I’m with you on this one. | |||
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"In the typeface used you can't tell the difference between I and l B L don't find that to be a problem. L'm perfectly happy with the typeface." I’m against I anyway | |||
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"Can't post pics in the forum, Some people are just rude More men look at my profile than the girls I think if you could post pictures on the forums, I would stop using the forums Thank heavens we can't post pictures in the forums! " Agreed. it is bad enough having posts littered with superfluous emojis. Some people would not understand self control if pictures were allowed. Threads would get bloated. They already do from needless re-quoting in full. 'thread got too big' is a ludicrous statement when it refers only to the number of posts and not the space it took up. | |||
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"This site, like most things in life, is what it is. I get my amusement out of being here. And if I didn’t anymore, I’d leave through the back door as quietly as I slithered in." spot on | |||
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"The fact that everyone doesn't just drop their pants at the mere sight of me " I can’t understand why not… you wear a bow tie and bracers | |||
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"When people don't read my profile and then get arsey." | |||
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"When people don't read my profile and then get arsey. " What if you’re illiterate? | |||
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"I really want a like button on forum comments" | |||
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"The site is outdated and missing a lot of features, but cheap. I rather pay 5£/m than 30£/m to not get laid. * People complaining not getting laid isn't bothering me, even would feel sympathy if I would be popular. People complaining about people complaining is more annoying. Funnily those ^ are usually couples or successful singles, so they're not in the same shoes. * Never the site, it's always the people. Especially people, who are convinced the other people have less right to be here, comment, complain, express themself or went sometimes. * Complaining about other people complaining = Wenting * Expressing your dislike about things = Wenting * Saying you're better than other people, when you're really not = Wenting + Hypocrisy " ^^^^ This 100% | |||
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" People complaining not getting laid isn't bothering me, even would feel sympathy if I would be popular. People complaining about people complaining is more annoying. Funnily those ^ are usually couples or successful singles, so they're not in the same shoes. * " Couples and single women will always hold the upper hand ,that's understandable ,along with maybe the 1% of single men who are successful on here ,the 1% who are lucky enough to have meets. We would all love to be in the tiny,tiny minority of single blokes who get meets,and have any success on here ,but that ain't ever going to happen because couples and single women will always choose from the single blokes with meet verifications when they decide which messages to reply to ,and meet with . I saw a post from a couple yesterday, and they said when they get a message, the first thing they do is check to see if he has any meet verifications. | |||
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" People complaining not getting laid isn't bothering me, even would feel sympathy if I would be popular. People complaining about people complaining is more annoying. Funnily those ^ are usually couples or successful singles, so they're not in the same shoes. * Couples and single women will always hold the upper hand ,that's understandable ,along with maybe the 1% of single men who are successful on here ,the 1% who are lucky enough to have meets. We would all love to be in the tiny,tiny minority of single blokes who get meets,and have any success on here ,but that ain't ever going to happen because couples and single women will always choose from the single blokes with meet verifications when they decide which messages to reply to ,and meet with . I saw a post from a couple yesterday, and they said when they get a message, the first thing they do is check to see if he has any meet verifications. " So people aren't allowed to have that preference? | |||
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" People complaining not getting laid isn't bothering me, even would feel sympathy if I would be popular. People complaining about people complaining is more annoying. Funnily those ^ are usually couples or successful singles, so they're not in the same shoes. * Couples and single women will always hold the upper hand ,that's understandable ,along with maybe the 1% of single men who are successful on here ,the 1% who are lucky enough to have meets. We would all love to be in the tiny,tiny minority of single blokes who get meets,and have any success on here ,but that ain't ever going to happen because couples and single women will always choose from the single blokes with meet verifications when they decide which messages to reply to ,and meet with . I saw a post from a couple yesterday, and they said when they get a message, the first thing they do is check to see if he has any meet verifications " Complaining or being upset about that does nothing though Fab ratio is crazy. If you walked into a pub with 200 guys and 1 woman, would you complain that you can’t get her attention or just go somewhere else with a better ratio? Don’t waste your energy on stuff you can’t change | |||
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" People complaining not getting laid isn't bothering me, even would feel sympathy if I would be popular. People complaining about people complaining is more annoying. Funnily those ^ are usually couples or successful singles, so they're not in the same shoes. * Couples and single women will always hold the upper hand ,that's understandable ,along with maybe the 1% of single men who are successful on here ,the 1% who are lucky enough to have meets. We would all love to be in the tiny,tiny minority of single blokes who get meets,and have any success on here ,but that ain't ever going to happen because couples and single women will always choose from the single blokes with meet verifications when they decide which messages to reply to ,and meet with . I saw a post from a couple yesterday, and they said when they get a message, the first thing they do is check to see if he has any meet verifications Complaining or being upset about that does nothing though Fab ratio is crazy. If you walked into a pub with 200 guys and 1 woman, would you complain that you can’t get her attention or just go somewhere else with a better ratio? Don’t waste your energy on stuff you can’t change " great example, you've just described a fab social | |||
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" People complaining . getting laid isn't bothering me, even would feel sympathy if I would be popular. People complaining about people complaining is more annoying. Funnily those ^ are usually couples or successful singles, so they're not in the same shoes. * Couples and single women will always hold the upper hand ,that's understandable ,along with maybe the 1% of single men who are successful on here ,the 1% who are lucky enough to have meets. We would all love to be in the tiny,tiny minority of single blokes who get meets,and have any success on here ,but that ain't ever going to happen because couples and single women will always choose from the single blokes with meet verifications when they decide which messages to reply to ,and meet with . I saw a post from a couple yesterday, and they said when they get a message, the first thing they do is check to see if he has any meet verifications. So people aren't allowed to have that preference? " Of course they are. I'm merely pointing out that EVERYONE started on Fab with zero verifications until someone gave them a chance ,singles and couples, but from reading a lot of profiles ,it seems that most people with verifications arnt prepared to give anyone with no verifications a chance . When the verified members joined and had no verifications, they wouldn't be in the lucky position they are now of having verifications if someone hadn't given them a chance. | |||
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"Just wish the site was modernised " Modernised !! Like fir those who have been on the site for 12 mth and given the option to go to the higher level where you pay a yearly fee and that fee is reduced we very year .. this cutting out all the timewasters .. count me in for that . There's so many timewasters on here due to fact that the site is completely free to join and use . We'd happily pay £150 a year if this was the case .. pay that fee would 100% wipe out the messers from the genuine folk | |||
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"Just wish the site was modernised " Modernised !! Like for those who have been on the site for 12 mth and given the option to go to the higher level where you pay a yearly fee and that fee is reduced every year .. thus cutting out all the timewasters .. count me in for that . There's so many timewasters on here due to fact that the site is completely free to join and use . We'd happily pay £150 a year if this was the case .. paying that fee would 100% wipe out the messers from the genuine folk | |||
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"Just wish the site was modernised Modernised !! Like fir those who have been on the site for 12 mth and given the option to go to the higher level where you pay a yearly fee and that fee is reduced we very year .. this cutting out all the timewasters .. count me in for that . There's so many timewasters on here due to fact that the site is completely free to join and use . We'd happily pay £150 a year if this was the case .. pay that fee would 100% wipe out the messers from the genuine folk " not true. | |||
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" People complaining . getting laid isn't bothering me, even would feel sympathy if I would be popular. People complaining about people complaining is more annoying. Funnily those ^ are usually couples or successful singles, so they're not in the same shoes. * Couples and single women will always hold the upper hand ,that's understandable ,along with maybe the 1% of single men who are successful on here ,the 1% who are lucky enough to have meets. We would all love to be in the tiny,tiny minority of single blokes who get meets,and have any success on here ,but that ain't ever going to happen because couples and single women will always choose from the single blokes with meet verifications when they decide which messages to reply to ,and meet with . I saw a post from a couple yesterday, and they said when they get a message, the first thing they do is check to see if he has any meet verifications. So people aren't allowed to have that preference? Of course they are. I'm merely pointing out that EVERYONE started on Fab with zero verifications until someone gave them a chance ,singles and couples, but from reading a lot of profiles ,it seems that most people with verifications arnt prepared to give anyone with no verifications a chance . When the verified members joined and had no verifications, they wouldn't be in the lucky position they are now of having verifications if someone hadn't given them a chance. " No-one is going to give you a veri because all you do is complain. (And plenty of people will meet without veris) | |||
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"‘Fab for this or that’ plastered over photos gives me the ick! " We're with you on that .. fab my pic for a lick ... men are worse that the women lol | |||
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"When people state they will only reply to "meet verified people ". Have they forgotten that they were themselves not meet verified once upon a time before soneone gave them a chance and met them.? EVERYONE had no verifications when they joined Fab , yet some people seem to have forgotten this. " Fab needs a broken record emoji. The power to fix this is in your hands. No one else is responsible for your success here. | |||
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"Just wish the site was modernised Modernised !! Like for those who have been on the site for 12 mth and given the option to go to the higher level where you pay a yearly fee and that fee is reduced every year .. thus cutting out all the timewasters .. count me in for that . There's so many timewasters on here due to fact that the site is completely free to join and use . We'd happily pay £150 a year if this was the case .. paying that fee would 100% wipe out the messers from the genuine folk " It would more likely wipe out 99% of the membership. | |||
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"When people state they will only reply to "meet verified people ". Have they forgotten that they were themselves not meet verified once upon a time before soneone gave them a chance and met them.? EVERYONE had no verifications when they joined Fab , yet some people seem to have forgotten this. Fab needs a broken record emoji. The power to fix this is in your hands. No one else is responsible for your success here." | |||
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"You see lot of repetition after a while. " I agree you do see a lot of repetition after a while. | |||
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"You see lot of repetition after a while. I agree you do see a lot of repetition after a while. " | |||
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"You see lot of repetition after a while. I agree you do see a lot of repetition after a while. " | |||
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"The fact that everyone doesn't just drop their pants at the mere sight of me I can’t understand why not… you wear a bow tie and bracers " Only on Tuesdays | |||
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"The constant virtue signalling. We get it, if you one the lottery you’d buy world peace and start charities and not spend a penny on yourself and we know you donate 99% of your salary already to visually impaired orphaned kittens. I’d get a jet ski but you do you. " I’d never go near a jet ski after some of those Florida stories. | |||
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"I dislike this assumption I see constantly that women only like men with HUGE dicks and six packs. Every time women on the forums say anything otherwise, they're dismissed. Like we don't know what we find attractive. " I need a man to tell me I’m attracted to him. Especially if he is nothing like what I describe I like. | |||
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"I dislike this assumption I see constantly that women only like men with HUGE dicks and six packs. Every time women on the forums say anything otherwise, they're dismissed. Like we don't know what we find attractive. " Yeah but be for real, I guy that looks like me isn’t desired at all on here. | |||
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"The constant virtue signalling. We get it, if you one the lottery you’d buy world peace and start charities and not spend a penny on yourself and we know you donate 99% of your salary already to visually impaired orphaned kittens. I’d get a jet ski but you do you. I’d never go near a jet ski after some of those Florida stories. " Don’t know about them. Don’t live in Florida. I bloody love zooming around on them so much fun! | |||
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"I dislike this assumption I see constantly that women only like men with HUGE dicks and six packs. Every time women on the forums say anything otherwise, they're dismissed. Like we don't know what we find attractive. I need a man to tell me I’m attracted to him. Especially if he is nothing like what I describe I like. " Noted | |||
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"The constant virtue signalling. We get it, if you one the lottery you’d buy world peace and start charities and not spend a penny on yourself and we know you donate 99% of your salary already to visually impaired orphaned kittens. I’d get a jet ski but you do you. " I’d get you an Elvis sex doll like in that Margaret Atwood book. | |||
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"The constant virtue signalling. We get it, if you one the lottery you’d buy world peace and start charities and not spend a penny on yourself and we know you donate 99% of your salary already to visually impaired orphaned kittens. I’d get a jet ski but you do you. I’d get you an Elvis sex doll like in that Margaret Atwood book. " I’d comfort hump it after I had a bad day and would think of you. | |||
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"The constant virtue signalling. We get it, if you one the lottery you’d buy world peace and start charities and not spend a penny on yourself and we know you donate 99% of your salary already to visually impaired orphaned kittens. I’d get a jet ski but you do you. I’d get you an Elvis sex doll like in that Margaret Atwood book. I’d comfort hump it after I had a bad day and would think of you. " And you could play So Sick by Neyo at the same time. And sing along while crying and grinding when he says ‘I’m so fed up with my thoughts of you’ | |||
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"I dislike this assumption I see constantly that women only like men with HUGE dicks and six packs. Every time women on the forums say anything otherwise, they're dismissed. Like we don't know what we find attractive. Yeah but be for real, I guy that looks like me isn’t desired at all on here. " Really, no success at all? Don't believe you | |||
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"I dislike this assumption I see constantly that women only like men with HUGE dicks and six packs. Every time women on the forums say anything otherwise, they're dismissed. Like we don't know what we find attractive. I need a man to tell me I’m attracted to him. Especially if he is nothing like what I describe I like. " And don't forget a man to tell you what you like sexually | |||
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"I dislike this assumption I see constantly that women only like men with HUGE dicks and six packs. Every time women on the forums say anything otherwise, they're dismissed. Like we don't know what we find attractive. Yeah but be for real, I guy that looks like me isn’t desired at all on here. Really, no success at all? Don't believe you " None! Well other than the forum babes I’ve banged but that’s because #Personality | |||
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"I dislike this assumption I see constantly that women only like men with HUGE dicks and six packs. Every time women on the forums say anything otherwise, they're dismissed. Like we don't know what we find attractive. " Define attraction? | |||
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"I dislike this assumption I see constantly that women only like men with HUGE dicks and six packs. Every time women on the forums say anything otherwise, they're dismissed. Like we don't know what we find attractive. Yeah but be for real, I guy that looks like me isn’t desired at all on here. Really, no success at all? Don't believe you None! Well other than the forum babes I’ve banged but that’s because #Personality " None doesn't seem to mean what it used to... | |||
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"I dislike this assumption I see constantly that women only like men with HUGE dicks and six packs. Every time women on the forums say anything otherwise, they're dismissed. Like we don't know what we find attractive. Define attraction?" Why? Everyone here knows what it means! | |||
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"I dislike this assumption I see constantly that women only like men with HUGE dicks and six packs. Every time women on the forums say anything otherwise, they're dismissed. Like we don't know what we find attractive. Yeah but be for real, I guy that looks like me isn’t desired at all on here. Really, no success at all? Don't believe you None! Well other than the forum babes I’ve banged but that’s because #Personality None doesn't seem to mean what it used to..." Keep up with the lingo of the streets | |||
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"I dislike this assumption I see constantly that women only like men with HUGE dicks and six packs. Every time women on the forums say anything otherwise, they're dismissed. Like we don't know what we find attractive. Define attraction? Why? Everyone here knows what it means!" Big penis. Six pack. | |||
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"I dislike this assumption I see constantly that women only like men with HUGE dicks and six packs. Every time women on the forums say anything otherwise, they're dismissed. Like we don't know what we find attractive. Define attraction? Why? Everyone here knows what it means! Big penis. Six pack. " But, but, but, BUT!!!!!!! That's not what I'm here for | |||
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"I dislike this assumption I see constantly that women only like men with HUGE dicks and six packs. Every time women on the forums say anything otherwise, they're dismissed. Like we don't know what we find attractive. Define attraction? Why? Everyone here knows what it means! Big penis. Six pack. But, but, but, BUT!!!!!!! That's not what I'm here for " Big penis. Six pack. | |||
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"I dislike this assumption I see constantly that women only like men with HUGE dicks and six packs. Every time women on the forums say anything otherwise, they're dismissed. Like we don't know what we find attractive. Define attraction? Why? Everyone here knows what it means!" Really? Taking your painting analogy when I look at a Picasso I see little by way of inspiration or beauty. However if you are talking Pollocks then I would suggest attraction is borne from the mind? | |||
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"I love the site but a few little things for someone with a logical mind like mine just dont make sene. For example status updates saying wanting a guy or a big cock or something similar from a woman or couple but have blocked men. " We may want big cock from the man in a couple, we don't block singles but I can see why some do. | |||
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