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Apols for scooping Tom on this one, although I expect a thread will still come tomorrow
https://news.sky.com/story/amp/trans-women-to-be-banned-from-female-hospital-wards-under-new-tory-proposals-12975456 | |||
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"When I was last in hospital the ward was mixed, there was a man in the bed next to me. My mum was in a ward with a trans woman. We both received excellent care. I think that there are bigger issues with hospitals to fix than trans women being on wards with women. " There was a woman with dementia in the bed next to my dad who kept pulling her cover and nightdress up, revealing no knickers situation. My mum would cover her up. | |||
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"Last time I was in hospital there was no space on the wards. They apologised profusely and put me on a proper bed in an examination room. I loved it. It was just like a private room. Much better than a mixed ward. " Ooo lucky you! I mostly kept my curtains drawn either side when I was in. Laying in bed next to people you don't know isn't my favourite pastime...she says on a swingers site  | |||
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"There are plenty of women uncomfortable at the idea of trans women on a ward just as there are women uncomfortable at the idea of being on a mixed ward." How often does it occur? | |||
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"There are plenty of women uncomfortable at the idea of trans women on a ward just as there are women uncomfortable at the idea of being on a mixed ward. How often does it occur? " For the past thirty years I have been in hospital two or three times a year. I have only ever once been on a mixed ward and that was a high-dependency ward. | |||
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"I mostly kept my curtains drawn either side when I was in. Laying in bed next to people you don't know isn't my favourite pastime...she says on a swingers site "But swinging you get to choose your bed-fellows ! | |||
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"This just seems like a distraction. Country's on fire - oh look, a culture war." Exactly. This is more dog whistle noise from the right of the Tory party to try and distract voters in blue seats from what’s really going on. | |||
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"There are plenty of women uncomfortable at the idea of trans women on a ward just as there are women uncomfortable at the idea of being on a mixed ward. How often does it occur? For the past thirty years I have been in hospital two or three times a year. I have only ever once been on a mixed ward and that was a high-dependency ward." My mum was in hospital around 14 times during the last year of her life. She was in a ward with a trans woman once and a man zero times. There were male nurses and doctors though. Nobody minded about them despite well documented evidence of criminal activity by some of them. | |||
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"I mostly kept my curtains drawn either side when I was in. Laying in bed next to people you don't know isn't my favourite pastime...she says on a swingers site
But swinging you get to choose your bed-fellows !"True.  | |||
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"There are plenty of women uncomfortable at the idea of trans women on a ward just as there are women uncomfortable at the idea of being on a mixed ward." But why are they uncomfortable and why should that mean we have to take action? If you were in a ward and I said you made me uncomfortable, would you be willing to leave and go elsewhere ? | |||
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"There are plenty of women uncomfortable at the idea of trans women on a ward just as there are women uncomfortable at the idea of being on a mixed ward. But why are they uncomfortable and why should that mean we have to take action? If you were in a ward and I said you made me uncomfortable, would you be willing to leave and go elsewhere ?" I would be happy to be moved.How often does it occur?(earlier question)unsurprisingly there is no patient survey on the subject as it would enrage the hardcore trans activists,ask your friends family etc on a one on one.Why should they be uncomfortable?because not everyone is on fab and they are in hospital not a club,a religious belief and many other reasons,why take action?what's the alternative?leave a sick person in an environment they are not happy with,which is not going to do their health/recovery/mental state any good.Every patient NHS or private has the legal right to same sex care,if they want it.shall we take that away too? | |||
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"There are plenty of women uncomfortable at the idea of trans women on a ward just as there are women uncomfortable at the idea of being on a mixed ward. But why are they uncomfortable and why should that mean we have to take action? If you were in a ward and I said you made me uncomfortable, would you be willing to leave and go elsewhere ?I would be happy to be moved.How often does it occur?(earlier question)unsurprisingly there is no patient survey on the subject as it would enrage the hardcore trans activists,ask your friends family etc on a one on one.Why should they be uncomfortable?because not everyone is on fab and they are in hospital not a club,a religious belief and many other reasons,why take action?what's the alternative?leave a sick person in an environment they are not happy with,which is not going to do their health/recovery/mental state any good.Every patient NHS or private has the legal right to same sex care,if they want it.shall we take that away too?" I suspect that if I wanted same sex care I'd be waiting a very long time for it. While taking individuals requirements into account is the ideal to aim for I think we need to be realistic. Currently it simply isn't possible to cater for every requirement. A bed is difficult enough to find in hospitals right now, let alone one that's in a ward which fulfils your moral, religious and personal preferences as far as other patients are concerned. We're in a fire fighting situation with the NHS, put the fire out then address everything else would be my approach. | |||
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"Culture war nonsense. Worry about trans-women in hospital wards, don’t worry about waiting lists, the fact that you haven’t had a pay rise in half a decade, the growing wealth disparity, your rights being gradually eroded, the state of your transport infrastructure, increasing job insecurity and lack of housing, back pedalling on the climate crisis or shutting down infrastructure projects that were previously lauded as essential. Just worry about trans-women in wards. Don’t fall for the horse-shit." Aren't we capable of thinking of one issue at a time? I am. | |||
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"I think this is a case of dealing with a huge, terrible car crash by directing people's attention to a person who fell off their bike. Look! Even though there's a great big, horrible mess we'll put a plaster on this person's knee " I agree, this is a gaze diverting tactic; but Trans-gender females in sport, now there's a real debate... but maybe for another day. | |||
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"Culture war nonsense. Worry about trans-women in hospital wards, don’t worry about waiting lists, the fact that you haven’t had a pay rise in half a decade, the growing wealth disparity, your rights being gradually eroded, the state of your transport infrastructure, increasing job insecurity and lack of housing, back pedalling on the climate crisis or shutting down infrastructure projects that were previously lauded as essential. Just worry about trans-women in wards. Don’t fall for the horse-shit." When you cook, do you cook 1 thing at a time then mix it all together? Like, do you throw salt in the pan first and cook that, then some water Or are you capable of tackling multiple things at once? Changing how you handle patients within a hospital is entirely doable while you also try to do other stuff. It’s not one or the other | |||
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"That’s the new proposal being suggested from the Health Secretary. What do we make of all that then, Fabsters?
Apols for scooping Tom on this one, although I expect a thread will still come tomorrow
https://news.sky.com/story/amp/trans-women-to-be-banned-from-female-hospital-wards-under-new-tory-proposals-12975456"How many wards are single sex? Are all trans women at the same point in their transition? Listen to the women on the word. If it needs to be a single sex ward...then it's a single sex ward. Doesn't need to be more complicated. Presumably the men's ward and trans men are ok though as there is no headline about that.? | |||
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"Culture war nonsense. Worry about trans-women in hospital wards, don’t worry about waiting lists, the fact that you haven’t had a pay rise in half a decade, the growing wealth disparity, your rights being gradually eroded, the state of your transport infrastructure, increasing job insecurity and lack of housing, back pedalling on the climate crisis or shutting down infrastructure projects that were previously lauded as essential. Just worry about trans-women in wards. Don’t fall for the horse-shit. When you cook, do you cook 1 thing at a time then mix it all together? Like, do you throw salt in the pan first and cook that, then some water Or are you capable of tackling multiple things at once? Changing how you handle patients within a hospital is entirely doable while you also try to do other stuff. It’s not one or the other " I think you’ve missed the point - being expected to concentrate one really insignificant one thing while the other really important things are slid past us. | |||
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"Culture war nonsense. Worry about trans-women in hospital wards, don’t worry about waiting lists, the fact that you haven’t had a pay rise in half a decade, the growing wealth disparity, your rights being gradually eroded, the state of your transport infrastructure, increasing job insecurity and lack of housing, back pedalling on the climate crisis or shutting down infrastructure projects that were previously lauded as essential. Just worry about trans-women in wards. Don’t fall for the horse-shit. Aren't we capable of thinking of one issue at a time? I am. " Good for you. It’s been proven repeatedly that this tactic works. | |||
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"There’s another thread on the forums right now where women’s feelings about men being a threat are being discussed So you either need to take those feelings on and grant women the ability to not have men in the ward with them for their safety Or you need to dismiss those thoughts and tell her to put her feelings and just get over her uneasy feelings of not being safe Because unless men stop becoming a threat when they transition through some medical magic, then we gotta pick. " Oh this is uncomfortable. I agree with you on something.  | |||
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"I think this is a case of dealing with a huge, terrible car crash by directing people's attention to a person who fell off their bike. Look! Even though there's a great big, horrible mess we'll put a plaster on this person's knee I agree, this is a gaze diverting tactic; but Trans-gender females in sport, now there's a real debate... but maybe for another day." Very true. Wait till they get a decent television audience to see it really lift off. Meanwhile back in hospital they are all on strike anyway so don't rush. | |||
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"Culture war nonsense. Worry about trans-women in hospital wards, don’t worry about waiting lists, the fact that you haven’t had a pay rise in half a decade, the growing wealth disparity, your rights being gradually eroded, the state of your transport infrastructure, increasing job insecurity and lack of housing, back pedalling on the climate crisis or shutting down infrastructure projects that were previously lauded as essential. Just worry about trans-women in wards. Don’t fall for the horse-shit. When you cook, do you cook 1 thing at a time then mix it all together? Like, do you throw salt in the pan first and cook that, then some water Or are you capable of tackling multiple things at once? Changing how you handle patients within a hospital is entirely doable while you also try to do other stuff. It’s not one or the other I think you’ve missed the point - being expected to concentrate one really insignificant one thing while the other really important things are slid past us. " You think it's insignificant because it doesn't affect men. | |||
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"There’s another thread on the forums right now where women’s feelings about men being a threat are being discussed So you either need to take those feelings on and grant women the ability to not have men in the ward with them for their safety Or you need to dismiss those thoughts and tell her to put her feelings and just get over her uneasy feelings of not being safe Because unless men stop becoming a threat when they transition through some medical magic, then we gotta pick. Oh this is uncomfortable. I agree with you on something. "It’s about time you got something right | |||
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"There’s another thread on the forums right now where women’s feelings about men being a threat are being discussed So you either need to take those feelings on and grant women the ability to not have men in the ward with them for their safety Or you need to dismiss those thoughts and tell her to put her feelings and just get over her uneasy feelings of not being safe Because unless men stop becoming a threat when they transition through some medical magic, then we gotta pick. " To what extent are trans women a problem? Because those statistics exist and they don't support this argument. Additionally, women who are passionate about this subject are not all women. Classic sexism. All men are different, special, unique, and we can't tar them with the same brush. Stop persecuting men! Meanwhile activists tar all women as falling under one hateful nasty illogical camp. Pity the poor cowering women. They're so scared! They're unable to look at statistics and realise this has no factual basis. Cater to them, like small children. Fuck all of that noise. | |||
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"There’s another thread on the forums right now where women’s feelings about men being a threat are being discussed So you either need to take those feelings on and grant women the ability to not have men in the ward with them for their safety Or you need to dismiss those thoughts and tell her to put her feelings and just get over her uneasy feelings of not being safe Because unless men stop becoming a threat when they transition through some medical magic, then we gotta pick. Oh this is uncomfortable. I agree with you on something. "Healthy debate can lead to surprising outcomes. | |||
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"I thought all wards were mixed wards these days anyway. They certainly have been when I've been in hospital. If people were just allowed to have the curtains closed it wouldn't make a bit of difference who else was in the ward, surely. " Mixed sex wards were banned in 2010. And it makes a difference to a lot of women. | |||
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"There’s another thread on the forums right now where women’s feelings about men being a threat are being discussed So you either need to take those feelings on and grant women the ability to not have men in the ward with them for their safety Or you need to dismiss those thoughts and tell her to put her feelings and just get over her uneasy feelings of not being safe Because unless men stop becoming a threat when they transition through some medical magic, then we gotta pick. To what extent are trans women a problem? Because those statistics exist and they don't support this argument. Additionally, women who are passionate about this subject are not all women. Classic sexism. All men are different, special, unique, and we can't tar them with the same brush. Stop persecuting men! Meanwhile activists tar all women as falling under one hateful nasty illogical camp. Pity the poor cowering women. They're so scared! They're unable to look at statistics and realise this has no factual basis. Cater to them, like small children. Fuck all of that noise." So trans women aren’t a problem but potentially men are At what point during transition do men stop becoming a problem? | |||
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"Culture war nonsense. Worry about trans-women in hospital wards, don’t worry about waiting lists, the fact that you haven’t had a pay rise in half a decade, the growing wealth disparity, your rights being gradually eroded, the state of your transport infrastructure, increasing job insecurity and lack of housing, back pedalling on the climate crisis or shutting down infrastructure projects that were previously lauded as essential. Just worry about trans-women in wards. Don’t fall for the horse-shit. When you cook, do you cook 1 thing at a time then mix it all together? Like, do you throw salt in the pan first and cook that, then some water Or are you capable of tackling multiple things at once? Changing how you handle patients within a hospital is entirely doable while you also try to do other stuff. It’s not one or the other I think you’ve missed the point - being expected to concentrate one really insignificant one thing while the other really important things are slid past us. You think it's insignificant because it doesn't affect men. " No, I think it’s of very little significance because statistically it’s of very little significance. | |||
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"There’s another thread on the forums right now where women’s feelings about men being a threat are being discussed So you either need to take those feelings on and grant women the ability to not have men in the ward with them for their safety Or you need to dismiss those thoughts and tell her to put her feelings and just get over her uneasy feelings of not being safe Because unless men stop becoming a threat when they transition through some medical magic, then we gotta pick. To what extent are trans women a problem? Because those statistics exist and they don't support this argument. Additionally, women who are passionate about this subject are not all women. Classic sexism. All men are different, special, unique, and we can't tar them with the same brush. Stop persecuting men! Meanwhile activists tar all women as falling under one hateful nasty illogical camp. Pity the poor cowering women. They're so scared! They're unable to look at statistics and realise this has no factual basis. Cater to them, like small children. Fuck all of that noise. So trans women aren’t a problem but potentially men are At what point during transition do men stop becoming a problem? " I don't know. I suspect more analysis needs to be done, but the statistics do not support trans women being a genuine threat - in fact they're more likely to be attacked. Perhaps people with 'female brains' (problematic construction unsupported by evidence, but let's run with it) are less likely to attack people, and those who transition are less violent all along. In the meantime, in the spirit of "stop demonising men", please stop demonising women by assuming that all or even most of us are this illogical or hysterical, because we're not. | |||
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"Culture war nonsense. Worry about trans-women in hospital wards, don’t worry about waiting lists, the fact that you haven’t had a pay rise in half a decade, the growing wealth disparity, your rights being gradually eroded, the state of your transport infrastructure, increasing job insecurity and lack of housing, back pedalling on the climate crisis or shutting down infrastructure projects that were previously lauded as essential. Just worry about trans-women in wards. Don’t fall for the horse-shit. When you cook, do you cook 1 thing at a time then mix it all together? Like, do you throw salt in the pan first and cook that, then some water Or are you capable of tackling multiple things at once? Changing how you handle patients within a hospital is entirely doable while you also try to do other stuff. It’s not one or the other I think you’ve missed the point - being expected to concentrate one really insignificant one thing while the other really important things are slid past us. You think it's insignificant because it doesn't affect men. No, I think it’s of very little significance because statistically it’s of very little significance. " How many women being assaulted on a mixed sex ward would be ok? Because keeping wards same sex is to provide patients with privacy and safety when they're vulnerable. Identifying as another gender does not change that. | |||
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"There’s another thread on the forums right now where women’s feelings about men being a threat are being discussed So you either need to take those feelings on and grant women the ability to not have men in the ward with them for their safety Or you need to dismiss those thoughts and tell her to put her feelings and just get over her uneasy feelings of not being safe Because unless men stop becoming a threat when they transition through some medical magic, then we gotta pick. To what extent are trans women a problem? Because those statistics exist and they don't support this argument. Additionally, women who are passionate about this subject are not all women. Classic sexism. All men are different, special, unique, and we can't tar them with the same brush. Stop persecuting men! Meanwhile activists tar all women as falling under one hateful nasty illogical camp. Pity the poor cowering women. They're so scared! They're unable to look at statistics and realise this has no factual basis. Cater to them, like small children. Fuck all of that noise. So trans women aren’t a problem but potentially men are At what point during transition do men stop becoming a problem? I don't know. I suspect more analysis needs to be done, but the statistics do not support trans women being a genuine threat - in fact they're more likely to be attacked. Perhaps people with 'female brains' (problematic construction unsupported by evidence, but let's run with it) are less likely to attack people, and those who transition are less violent all along. In the meantime, in the spirit of "stop demonising men", please stop demonising women by assuming that all or even most of us are this illogical or hysterical, because we're not." So we can’t answer, so in order to keep the ones that are worried, we should accommodate their needs until we have an answer Sorted | |||
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"There’s another thread on the forums right now where women’s feelings about men being a threat are being discussed So you either need to take those feelings on and grant women the ability to not have men in the ward with them for their safety Or you need to dismiss those thoughts and tell her to put her feelings and just get over her uneasy feelings of not being safe Because unless men stop becoming a threat when they transition through some medical magic, then we gotta pick. To what extent are trans women a problem? Because those statistics exist and they don't support this argument. Additionally, women who are passionate about this subject are not all women. Classic sexism. All men are different, special, unique, and we can't tar them with the same brush. Stop persecuting men! Meanwhile activists tar all women as falling under one hateful nasty illogical camp. Pity the poor cowering women. They're so scared! They're unable to look at statistics and realise this has no factual basis. Cater to them, like small children. Fuck all of that noise. So trans women aren’t a problem but potentially men are At what point during transition do men stop becoming a problem? I don't know. I suspect more analysis needs to be done, but the statistics do not support trans women being a genuine threat - in fact they're more likely to be attacked. Perhaps people with 'female brains' (problematic construction unsupported by evidence, but let's run with it) are less likely to attack people, and those who transition are less violent all along. In the meantime, in the spirit of "stop demonising men", please stop demonising women by assuming that all or even most of us are this illogical or hysterical, because we're not." I'm not illogical or hysterical. But I don't agree that trans women should be on female wards. | |||
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"There’s another thread on the forums right now where women’s feelings about men being a threat are being discussed So you either need to take those feelings on and grant women the ability to not have men in the ward with them for their safety Or you need to dismiss those thoughts and tell her to put her feelings and just get over her uneasy feelings of not being safe Because unless men stop becoming a threat when they transition through some medical magic, then we gotta pick. To what extent are trans women a problem? Because those statistics exist and they don't support this argument. Additionally, women who are passionate about this subject are not all women. Classic sexism. All men are different, special, unique, and we can't tar them with the same brush. Stop persecuting men! Meanwhile activists tar all women as falling under one hateful nasty illogical camp. Pity the poor cowering women. They're so scared! They're unable to look at statistics and realise this has no factual basis. Cater to them, like small children. Fuck all of that noise. So trans women aren’t a problem but potentially men are At what point during transition do men stop becoming a problem? I don't know. I suspect more analysis needs to be done, but the statistics do not support trans women being a genuine threat - in fact they're more likely to be attacked. Perhaps people with 'female brains' (problematic construction unsupported by evidence, but let's run with it) are less likely to attack people, and those who transition are less violent all along. In the meantime, in the spirit of "stop demonising men", please stop demonising women by assuming that all or even most of us are this illogical or hysterical, because we're not. I'm not illogical or hysterical. But I don't agree that trans women should be on female wards." Hey, you’ve had your time being the hammer, welcome to being the nail You are being hysterical and illogical for daring to disagree with the ones that know all the answers | |||
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"There’s another thread on the forums right now where women’s feelings about men being a threat are being discussed So you either need to take those feelings on and grant women the ability to not have men in the ward with them for their safety Or you need to dismiss those thoughts and tell her to put her feelings and just get over her uneasy feelings of not being safe Because unless men stop becoming a threat when they transition through some medical magic, then we gotta pick. To what extent are trans women a problem? Because those statistics exist and they don't support this argument. Additionally, women who are passionate about this subject are not all women. Classic sexism. All men are different, special, unique, and we can't tar them with the same brush. Stop persecuting men! Meanwhile activists tar all women as falling under one hateful nasty illogical camp. Pity the poor cowering women. They're so scared! They're unable to look at statistics and realise this has no factual basis. Cater to them, like small children. Fuck all of that noise. So trans women aren’t a problem but potentially men are At what point during transition do men stop becoming a problem? I don't know. I suspect more analysis needs to be done, but the statistics do not support trans women being a genuine threat - in fact they're more likely to be attacked. Perhaps people with 'female brains' (problematic construction unsupported by evidence, but let's run with it) are less likely to attack people, and those who transition are less violent all along. In the meantime, in the spirit of "stop demonising men", please stop demonising women by assuming that all or even most of us are this illogical or hysterical, because we're not. I'm not illogical or hysterical. But I don't agree that trans women should be on female wards." Are your arguments supported by evidence of increases in attacks by trans women? My point to the other poster is what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I am a woman. An F was put on my birth certificate immediately after I was born, and it hasn't been changed. I have had periods since late primary school. I've had gynaecological surgery, twice. I will not be told that all women are in favour of this punitive, illogical, hysterical front for fascism, because I am a woman, and I am not in favour of this. | |||
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"Culture war nonsense. Worry about trans-women in hospital wards, don’t worry about waiting lists, the fact that you haven’t had a pay rise in half a decade, the growing wealth disparity, your rights being gradually eroded, the state of your transport infrastructure, increasing job insecurity and lack of housing, back pedalling on the climate crisis or shutting down infrastructure projects that were previously lauded as essential. Just worry about trans-women in wards. Don’t fall for the horse-shit. When you cook, do you cook 1 thing at a time then mix it all together? Like, do you throw salt in the pan first and cook that, then some water Or are you capable of tackling multiple things at once? Changing how you handle patients within a hospital is entirely doable while you also try to do other stuff. It’s not one or the other I think you’ve missed the point - being expected to concentrate one really insignificant one thing while the other really important things are slid past us. You think it's insignificant because it doesn't affect men. No, I think it’s of very little significance because statistically it’s of very little significance. " What statistics are needed to make it significant? It's just unnecessary and entitled to expect a single sex ward to be anything but single sex. | |||
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"There’s another thread on the forums right now where women’s feelings about men being a threat are being discussed So you either need to take those feelings on and grant women the ability to not have men in the ward with them for their safety Or you need to dismiss those thoughts and tell her to put her feelings and just get over her uneasy feelings of not being safe Because unless men stop becoming a threat when they transition through some medical magic, then we gotta pick. To what extent are trans women a problem? Because those statistics exist and they don't support this argument. Additionally, women who are passionate about this subject are not all women. Classic sexism. All men are different, special, unique, and we can't tar them with the same brush. Stop persecuting men! Meanwhile activists tar all women as falling under one hateful nasty illogical camp. Pity the poor cowering women. They're so scared! They're unable to look at statistics and realise this has no factual basis. Cater to them, like small children. Fuck all of that noise. So trans women aren’t a problem but potentially men are At what point during transition do men stop becoming a problem? I don't know. I suspect more analysis needs to be done, but the statistics do not support trans women being a genuine threat - in fact they're more likely to be attacked. Perhaps people with 'female brains' (problematic construction unsupported by evidence, but let's run with it) are less likely to attack people, and those who transition are less violent all along. In the meantime, in the spirit of "stop demonising men", please stop demonising women by assuming that all or even most of us are this illogical or hysterical, because we're not. I'm not illogical or hysterical. But I don't agree that trans women should be on female wards. Are your arguments supported by evidence of increases in attacks by trans women? My point to the other poster is what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I am a woman. An F was put on my birth certificate immediately after I was born, and it hasn't been changed. I have had periods since late primary school. I've had gynaecological surgery, twice. I will not be told that all women are in favour of this punitive, illogical, hysterical front for fascism, because I am a woman, and I am not in favour of this." No ones said all women are And there’s data for and against it. I’ve got data showing that over half of transgender people in prison in the uk 2019 had a sexual offence conviction and the vast majorities of them were MtF. There’s others that show a male pattern of criminality for MtF trans So we can’t pretend that men are a threat, but they magically aren’t threat because they to become a woman So until we know exactly when they stop becoming a threat, women should be able to feel safe if they choose too by having their own wards without men or trans women | |||
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"Culture war nonsense. Worry about trans-women in hospital wards, don’t worry about waiting lists, the fact that you haven’t had a pay rise in half a decade, the growing wealth disparity, your rights being gradually eroded, the state of your transport infrastructure, increasing job insecurity and lack of housing, back pedalling on the climate crisis or shutting down infrastructure projects that were previously lauded as essential. Just worry about trans-women in wards. Don’t fall for the horse-shit. When you cook, do you cook 1 thing at a time then mix it all together? Like, do you throw salt in the pan first and cook that, then some water Or are you capable of tackling multiple things at once? Changing how you handle patients within a hospital is entirely doable while you also try to do other stuff. It’s not one or the other I think you’ve missed the point - being expected to concentrate one really insignificant one thing while the other really important things are slid past us. You think it's insignificant because it doesn't affect men. No, I think it’s of very little significance because statistically it’s of very little significance. What statistics are needed to make it significant? It's just unnecessary and entitled to expect a single sex ward to be anything but single sex. " I don't think it's entitled to expect a hospital to be able to accommodate people. I'd be perfectly happy to do away with single sex wards entirely. I think they're a relic of another era. Even forget that trans people are supposed to be the downfall of civilisation or whatever. While waiting for my first gynae surgery the bloke in the bed next to me was the best ward companion a girl could ever ask for. (And I saw the pictures of my fucked up ovaries afterwards. I'm definitely a cis woman, for my sins ) | |||
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"Culture war nonsense. Worry about trans-women in hospital wards, don’t worry about waiting lists, the fact that you haven’t had a pay rise in half a decade, the growing wealth disparity, your rights being gradually eroded, the state of your transport infrastructure, increasing job insecurity and lack of housing, back pedalling on the climate crisis or shutting down infrastructure projects that were previously lauded as essential. Just worry about trans-women in wards. Don’t fall for the horse-shit. When you cook, do you cook 1 thing at a time then mix it all together? Like, do you throw salt in the pan first and cook that, then some water Or are you capable of tackling multiple things at once? Changing how you handle patients within a hospital is entirely doable while you also try to do other stuff. It’s not one or the other I think you’ve missed the point - being expected to concentrate one really insignificant one thing while the other really important things are slid past us. You think it's insignificant because it doesn't affect men. No, I think it’s of very little significance because statistically it’s of very little significance. How many women being assaulted on a mixed sex ward would be ok? Because keeping wards same sex is to provide patients with privacy and safety when they're vulnerable. Identifying as another gender does not change that. " So where do trans women go? Do they have a trans ward? It’s about risk analysis - the chances of being attacked in hospital by a member of the opposite sex are low already. The chances of being attacked by a trans person (by dint of their being a tiny percentage of the community to begin with) are therefor infinitely lower. I’d argue it’s a tiny fraction of a percent. Bring in the fact that wards are staffed and monitored? Would the trans woman be more at risk in a male ward? Possibly. Anyone have any figures on that? | |||
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"There’s another thread on the forums right now where women’s feelings about men being a threat are being discussed So you either need to take those feelings on and grant women the ability to not have men in the ward with them for their safety Or you need to dismiss those thoughts and tell her to put her feelings and just get over her uneasy feelings of not being safe Because unless men stop becoming a threat when they transition through some medical magic, then we gotta pick. To what extent are trans women a problem? Because those statistics exist and they don't support this argument. Additionally, women who are passionate about this subject are not all women. Classic sexism. All men are different, special, unique, and we can't tar them with the same brush. Stop persecuting men! Meanwhile activists tar all women as falling under one hateful nasty illogical camp. Pity the poor cowering women. They're so scared! They're unable to look at statistics and realise this has no factual basis. Cater to them, like small children. Fuck all of that noise. So trans women aren’t a problem but potentially men are At what point during transition do men stop becoming a problem? I don't know. I suspect more analysis needs to be done, but the statistics do not support trans women being a genuine threat - in fact they're more likely to be attacked. Perhaps people with 'female brains' (problematic construction unsupported by evidence, but let's run with it) are less likely to attack people, and those who transition are less violent all along. In the meantime, in the spirit of "stop demonising men", please stop demonising women by assuming that all or even most of us are this illogical or hysterical, because we're not. I'm not illogical or hysterical. But I don't agree that trans women should be on female wards. Are your arguments supported by evidence of increases in attacks by trans women? My point to the other poster is what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I am a woman. An F was put on my birth certificate immediately after I was born, and it hasn't been changed. I have had periods since late primary school. I've had gynaecological surgery, twice. I will not be told that all women are in favour of this punitive, illogical, hysterical front for fascism, because I am a woman, and I am not in favour of this. No ones said all women are And there’s data for and against it. I’ve got data showing that over half of transgender people in prison in the uk 2019 had a sexual offence conviction and the vast majorities of them were MtF. There’s others that show a male pattern of criminality for MtF trans So we can’t pretend that men are a threat, but they magically aren’t threat because they to become a woman So until we know exactly when they stop becoming a threat, women should be able to feel safe if they choose too by having their own wards without men or trans women " No one said all men either, and yet 
I don't feel safe with terfs in the same ward as me. Am I entitled to kick them out? Trans people are far more likely to be the victims of crime than the perpetrators of it.
We know that medical staff are likely to hurt people. How do we eradicate that risk?
Or is it just this culturally expedient dead cat that we have to be a 115% certain of with neurology going back 65 years? | |||
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"There’s another thread on the forums right now where women’s feelings about men being a threat are being discussed So you either need to take those feelings on and grant women the ability to not have men in the ward with them for their safety Or you need to dismiss those thoughts and tell her to put her feelings and just get over her uneasy feelings of not being safe Because unless men stop becoming a threat when they transition through some medical magic, then we gotta pick. To what extent are trans women a problem? Because those statistics exist and they don't support this argument. Additionally, women who are passionate about this subject are not all women. Classic sexism. All men are different, special, unique, and we can't tar them with the same brush. Stop persecuting men! Meanwhile activists tar all women as falling under one hateful nasty illogical camp. Pity the poor cowering women. They're so scared! They're unable to look at statistics and realise this has no factual basis. Cater to them, like small children. Fuck all of that noise. So trans women aren’t a problem but potentially men are At what point during transition do men stop becoming a problem? I don't know. I suspect more analysis needs to be done, but the statistics do not support trans women being a genuine threat - in fact they're more likely to be attacked. Perhaps people with 'female brains' (problematic construction unsupported by evidence, but let's run with it) are less likely to attack people, and those who transition are less violent all along. In the meantime, in the spirit of "stop demonising men", please stop demonising women by assuming that all or even most of us are this illogical or hysterical, because we're not. I'm not illogical or hysterical. But I don't agree that trans women should be on female wards. Are your arguments supported by evidence of increases in attacks by trans women? My point to the other poster is what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I am a woman. An F was put on my birth certificate immediately after I was born, and it hasn't been changed. I have had periods since late primary school. I've had gynaecological surgery, twice. I will not be told that all women are in favour of this punitive, illogical, hysterical front for fascism, because I am a woman, and I am not in favour of this." I am also a woman and I have a different point of view. I believe it's the view that most of the country share. Gender is not sex. Sometimes sex matters and it cannot be ignored for single sex spaces like hospital wards. That's neither illogical nor a front for facism. | |||
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"There’s another thread on the forums right now where women’s feelings about men being a threat are being discussed So you either need to take those feelings on and grant women the ability to not have men in the ward with them for their safety Or you need to dismiss those thoughts and tell her to put her feelings and just get over her uneasy feelings of not being safe Because unless men stop becoming a threat when they transition through some medical magic, then we gotta pick. To what extent are trans women a problem? Because those statistics exist and they don't support this argument. Additionally, women who are passionate about this subject are not all women. Classic sexism. All men are different, special, unique, and we can't tar them with the same brush. Stop persecuting men! Meanwhile activists tar all women as falling under one hateful nasty illogical camp. Pity the poor cowering women. They're so scared! They're unable to look at statistics and realise this has no factual basis. Cater to them, like small children. Fuck all of that noise. So trans women aren’t a problem but potentially men are At what point during transition do men stop becoming a problem? I don't know. I suspect more analysis needs to be done, but the statistics do not support trans women being a genuine threat - in fact they're more likely to be attacked. Perhaps people with 'female brains' (problematic construction unsupported by evidence, but let's run with it) are less likely to attack people, and those who transition are less violent all along. In the meantime, in the spirit of "stop demonising men", please stop demonising women by assuming that all or even most of us are this illogical or hysterical, because we're not. I'm not illogical or hysterical. But I don't agree that trans women should be on female wards. Are your arguments supported by evidence of increases in attacks by trans women? My point to the other poster is what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I am a woman. An F was put on my birth certificate immediately after I was born, and it hasn't been changed. I have had periods since late primary school. I've had gynaecological surgery, twice. I will not be told that all women are in favour of this punitive, illogical, hysterical front for fascism, because I am a woman, and I am not in favour of this. No ones said all women are And there’s data for and against it. I’ve got data showing that over half of transgender people in prison in the uk 2019 had a sexual offence conviction and the vast majorities of them were MtF. There’s others that show a male pattern of criminality for MtF trans So we can’t pretend that men are a threat, but they magically aren’t threat because they to become a woman So until we know exactly when they stop becoming a threat, women should be able to feel safe if they choose too by having their own wards without men or trans women No one said all men either, and yet
I don't feel safe with terfs in the same ward as me. Am I entitled to kick them out? Trans people are far more likely to be the victims of crime than the perpetrators of it.
We know that medical staff are likely to hurt people. How do we eradicate that risk?
Or is it just this culturally expedient dead cat that we have to be a 115% certain of with neurology going back 65 years?"My point is that we either have to accept men aren’t a threat and have open wards Or accept that they are and that MtF aren’t an exception to that and give women the safety they need I’m neither for or against either side, I’m a guy, I’m safe everywhere | |||
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" Would the trans woman be more at risk in a male ward? Possibly. Anyone have any figures on that? " You'd have to think that if being on a ward is a risk of being sexually assaulted, then yes trans women would certainly be at higher risk on a male ward. But considering that fact would require people to value trans lives, which they very often don't unfortunately. You see the same thing with the endless toilet debate. | |||
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" It’s about risk analysis - the chances of being attacked in hospital by a member of the opposite sex are low already. The chances of being attacked by a trans person (by dint of their being a tiny percentage of the community to begin with) are therefor infinitely lower. I’d argue it’s a tiny fraction of a percent. Bring in the fact that wards are staffed and monitored? Would the trans woman be more at risk in a male ward? Possibly. Anyone have any figures on that? " The chance of being assaulted in hospital is not low. "More than 35,000 incidents of sexual misconduct or sexual violence - ranging from derogatory remarks to r@pe - were recorded on NHS premises in England between 2017 and 2022." https://www.bbc.com/news/health-65671018 | |||
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"There’s another thread on the forums right now where women’s feelings about men being a threat are being discussed So you either need to take those feelings on and grant women the ability to not have men in the ward with them for their safety Or you need to dismiss those thoughts and tell her to put her feelings and just get over her uneasy feelings of not being safe Because unless men stop becoming a threat when they transition through some medical magic, then we gotta pick. To what extent are trans women a problem? Because those statistics exist and they don't support this argument. Additionally, women who are passionate about this subject are not all women. Classic sexism. All men are different, special, unique, and we can't tar them with the same brush. Stop persecuting men! Meanwhile activists tar all women as falling under one hateful nasty illogical camp. Pity the poor cowering women. They're so scared! They're unable to look at statistics and realise this has no factual basis. Cater to them, like small children. Fuck all of that noise. So trans women aren’t a problem but potentially men are At what point during transition do men stop becoming a problem? I don't know. I suspect more analysis needs to be done, but the statistics do not support trans women being a genuine threat - in fact they're more likely to be attacked. Perhaps people with 'female brains' (problematic construction unsupported by evidence, but let's run with it) are less likely to attack people, and those who transition are less violent all along. In the meantime, in the spirit of "stop demonising men", please stop demonising women by assuming that all or even most of us are this illogical or hysterical, because we're not. I'm not illogical or hysterical. But I don't agree that trans women should be on female wards. Are your arguments supported by evidence of increases in attacks by trans women? My point to the other poster is what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I am a woman. An F was put on my birth certificate immediately after I was born, and it hasn't been changed. I have had periods since late primary school. I've had gynaecological surgery, twice. I will not be told that all women are in favour of this punitive, illogical, hysterical front for fascism, because I am a woman, and I am not in favour of this. I am also a woman and I have a different point of view. I believe it's the view that most of the country share. Gender is not sex. Sometimes sex matters and it cannot be ignored for single sex spaces like hospital wards. That's neither illogical nor a front for facism. " Do the statistics support your position? I believe that the historical parallels and the way in which this movement has moved in other places suggest that it does become a front for fascism. The fact that people who believe this are personally not fascists does not change the sociological patterns, nor the concerning behaviour of some leaders with strong historical parallels. I think that resources need to be allocated carefully and patients - all patients, not just cis ones - should be treated with dignity. I don't think I have more of a right to dignity than the person in the bed next to me, whether they have a penis, a vagina, or a pumpkin. | |||
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"Also, just mad reading the way some people discuss trans people’s right to exist in spaces without them being a part of the conversation. " Trans people are perfectly able to join this thread and add to the discussion. No-one is suggesting they shouldn't exist. Just that some spaces need to be single sex. | |||
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"There’s another thread on the forums right now where women’s feelings about men being a threat are being discussed So you either need to take those feelings on and grant women the ability to not have men in the ward with them for their safety Or you need to dismiss those thoughts and tell her to put her feelings and just get over her uneasy feelings of not being safe Because unless men stop becoming a threat when they transition through some medical magic, then we gotta pick. To what extent are trans women a problem? Because those statistics exist and they don't support this argument. Additionally, women who are passionate about this subject are not all women. Classic sexism. All men are different, special, unique, and we can't tar them with the same brush. Stop persecuting men! Meanwhile activists tar all women as falling under one hateful nasty illogical camp. Pity the poor cowering women. They're so scared! They're unable to look at statistics and realise this has no factual basis. Cater to them, like small children. Fuck all of that noise. So trans women aren’t a problem but potentially men are At what point during transition do men stop becoming a problem? I don't know. I suspect more analysis needs to be done, but the statistics do not support trans women being a genuine threat - in fact they're more likely to be attacked. Perhaps people with 'female brains' (problematic construction unsupported by evidence, but let's run with it) are less likely to attack people, and those who transition are less violent all along. In the meantime, in the spirit of "stop demonising men", please stop demonising women by assuming that all or even most of us are this illogical or hysterical, because we're not. I'm not illogical or hysterical. But I don't agree that trans women should be on female wards. Are your arguments supported by evidence of increases in attacks by trans women? My point to the other poster is what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I am a woman. An F was put on my birth certificate immediately after I was born, and it hasn't been changed. I have had periods since late primary school. I've had gynaecological surgery, twice. I will not be told that all women are in favour of this punitive, illogical, hysterical front for fascism, because I am a woman, and I am not in favour of this. No ones said all women are And there’s data for and against it. I’ve got data showing that over half of transgender people in prison in the uk 2019 had a sexual offence conviction and the vast majorities of them were MtF. There’s others that show a male pattern of criminality for MtF trans So we can’t pretend that men are a threat, but they magically aren’t threat because they to become a woman So until we know exactly when they stop becoming a threat, women should be able to feel safe if they choose too by having their own wards without men or trans women No one said all men either, and yet
I don't feel safe with terfs in the same ward as me. Am I entitled to kick them out? Trans people are far more likely to be the victims of crime than the perpetrators of it.
We know that medical staff are likely to hurt people. How do we eradicate that risk?
Or is it just this culturally expedient dead cat that we have to be a 115% certain of with neurology going back 65 years?
My point is that we either have to accept men aren’t a threat and have open wards
Or accept that they are and that MtF aren’t an exception to that and give women the safety they need
I’m neither for or against either side, I’m a guy, I’m safe everywhere "Trans women are women | |||
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"Also, just mad reading the way some people discuss trans people’s right to exist in spaces without them being a part of the conversation. Trans people are perfectly able to join this thread and add to the discussion. No-one is suggesting they shouldn't exist. Just that some spaces need to be single sex. " And people keep calling them men. When they’re not men. | |||
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"Also, just mad reading the way some people discuss trans people’s right to exist in spaces without them being a part of the conversation. Trans people are perfectly able to join this thread and add to the discussion. No-one is suggesting they shouldn't exist. Just that some spaces need to be single sex. And people keep calling them men. When they’re not men. " If trans women are men, then I have a ladydick and I had ladyballs surgery and I wear a manbun | |||
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"There’s another thread on the forums right now where women’s feelings about men being a threat are being discussed So you either need to take those feelings on and grant women the ability to not have men in the ward with them for their safety Or you need to dismiss those thoughts and tell her to put her feelings and just get over her uneasy feelings of not being safe Because unless men stop becoming a threat when they transition through some medical magic, then we gotta pick. To what extent are trans women a problem? Because those statistics exist and they don't support this argument. Additionally, women who are passionate about this subject are not all women. Classic sexism. All men are different, special, unique, and we can't tar them with the same brush. Stop persecuting men! Meanwhile activists tar all women as falling under one hateful nasty illogical camp. Pity the poor cowering women. They're so scared! They're unable to look at statistics and realise this has no factual basis. Cater to them, like small children. Fuck all of that noise. So trans women aren’t a problem but potentially men are At what point during transition do men stop becoming a problem? I don't know. I suspect more analysis needs to be done, but the statistics do not support trans women being a genuine threat - in fact they're more likely to be attacked. Perhaps people with 'female brains' (problematic construction unsupported by evidence, but let's run with it) are less likely to attack people, and those who transition are less violent all along. In the meantime, in the spirit of "stop demonising men", please stop demonising women by assuming that all or even most of us are this illogical or hysterical, because we're not. I'm not illogical or hysterical. But I don't agree that trans women should be on female wards. Are your arguments supported by evidence of increases in attacks by trans women? My point to the other poster is what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I am a woman. An F was put on my birth certificate immediately after I was born, and it hasn't been changed. I have had periods since late primary school. I've had gynaecological surgery, twice. I will not be told that all women are in favour of this punitive, illogical, hysterical front for fascism, because I am a woman, and I am not in favour of this. I am also a woman and I have a different point of view. I believe it's the view that most of the country share. Gender is not sex. Sometimes sex matters and it cannot be ignored for single sex spaces like hospital wards. That's neither illogical nor a front for facism. Do the statistics support your position? I believe that the historical parallels and the way in which this movement has moved in other places suggest that it does become a front for fascism. The fact that people who believe this are personally not fascists does not change the sociological patterns, nor the concerning behaviour of some leaders with strong historical parallels. I think that resources need to be allocated carefully and patients - all patients, not just cis ones - should be treated with dignity. I don't think I have more of a right to dignity than the person in the bed next to me, whether they have a penis, a vagina, or a pumpkin." How many assaults by or on trans people would be ok statistically? Id say zero. And yes I think everyone deserves dignity too. | |||
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"Also, just mad reading the way some people discuss trans people’s right to exist in spaces without them being a part of the conversation. Trans people are perfectly able to join this thread and add to the discussion. No-one is suggesting they shouldn't exist. Just that some spaces need to be single sex. " The language people are using is as if they haven’t considered how a trans person might feel reading the way they’re being spoken about. I’m not talking about the opinion on this debate I’m talking about the way trans people are being discussed. | |||
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"Also, just mad reading the way some people discuss trans people’s right to exist in spaces without them being a part of the conversation. Trans people are perfectly able to join this thread and add to the discussion. No-one is suggesting they shouldn't exist. Just that some spaces need to be single sex. And people keep calling them men. When they’re not men. " That's a good point. At what point of their transition male to female or female to male do they "change" sex? Because (I accept my ignorance here) someone just saying I choose to identify as surely can't be sufficient to put them in a single sex ward? | |||
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"Also, just mad reading the way some people discuss trans people’s right to exist in spaces without them being a part of the conversation. Trans people are perfectly able to join this thread and add to the discussion. No-one is suggesting they shouldn't exist. Just that some spaces need to be single sex. And people keep calling them men. When they’re not men. " Well I guess we agree on lots, but not that people can change sex. | |||
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"Also, just mad reading the way some people discuss trans people’s right to exist in spaces without them being a part of the conversation. Trans people are perfectly able to join this thread and add to the discussion. No-one is suggesting they shouldn't exist. Just that some spaces need to be single sex. The language people are using is as if they haven’t considered how a trans person might feel reading the way they’re being spoken about. I’m not talking about the opinion on this debate I’m talking about the way trans people are being discussed. " What have I said that you think is objectionable? Because unlike swing, I haven't called anyone a name. | |||
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" It’s about risk analysis - the chances of being attacked in hospital by a member of the opposite sex are low already. The chances of being attacked by a trans person (by dint of their being a tiny percentage of the community to begin with) are therefor infinitely lower. I’d argue it’s a tiny fraction of a percent. Bring in the fact that wards are staffed and monitored? Would the trans woman be more at risk in a male ward? Possibly. Anyone have any figures on that? The chance of being assaulted in hospital is not low. "More than 35,000 incidents of sexual misconduct or sexual violence - ranging from derogatory remarks to r@pe - were recorded on NHS premises in England between 2017 and 2022." https://www.bbc.com/news/health-65671018" Most of which were patients abusing staff - so they could be scrubbed from this conversation. So we’re down to 15,000ish in a 5 year spell / which sounds a lot, but amongst how many patients in hospitals? It’s about risk management. The chances of being killed in plane crash are apparently 1 in 11 million. That doesn’t mean plane crashes aren’t tragedies. It doesn’t mean they don’t happen, but also we don’t worry about our plane crashing when we get onboard. Why? Because we’re aware of the tiny, tiny chance of the plane crashing - and ignore it as statistically insignificant. I strongly suspect it’s the same with trans assaults on hospital wards. That doesn’t mean any assault is acceptable - but we have to factor in the likelihood of risk. Should the trans women be placed on a male ward, in your opinion? | |||
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"Also, just mad reading the way some people discuss trans people’s right to exist in spaces without them being a part of the conversation. Trans people are perfectly able to join this thread and add to the discussion. No-one is suggesting they shouldn't exist. Just that some spaces need to be single sex. The language people are using is as if they haven’t considered how a trans person might feel reading the way they’re being spoken about. I’m not talking about the opinion on this debate I’m talking about the way trans people are being discussed. " Indeed. | |||
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"Also, just mad reading the way some people discuss trans people’s right to exist in spaces without them being a part of the conversation. Trans people are perfectly able to join this thread and add to the discussion. No-one is suggesting they shouldn't exist. Just that some spaces need to be single sex. And people keep calling them men. When they’re not men. Well I guess we agree on lots, but not that people can change sex. " but isn’t there a difference between calling me male, as in what I am biologically, and calling me a man? Seen as gender and sex are not the same. Why don’t people respect *gender* identity? | |||
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"As long as I’m in an appropriate bed, on an appropriate ward, getting the correct treatment I don’t care who is in the rooms/ bays next to me. I don’t feel any less uncomfortable being sick next to a male or female. It’s horrible not being in a private room. If there was a man requiring treatment and the only bed in the hospital was next to mine, get him there. Really appreciate this isn’t the case for all women. And it is really difficult. But the current bed situations in hospitals right now id take it x" This is the way. | |||
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"Also, just mad reading the way some people discuss trans people’s right to exist in spaces without them being a part of the conversation. Trans people are perfectly able to join this thread and add to the discussion. No-one is suggesting they shouldn't exist. Just that some spaces need to be single sex. And people keep calling them men. When they’re not men. That's a good point. At what point of their transition male to female or female to male do they "change" sex? Because (I accept my ignorance here) someone just saying I choose to identify as surely can't be sufficient to put them in a single sex ward? " That’s the thing no one wants to answer If men are a threat but trans women aren’t, exactly where in the transition does the threat stop? So we either have to admit men aren’t a threat and that we have open wards Or you need to explain to me what part of the transition makes a trans woman not a threat | |||
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"Also, just mad reading the way some people discuss trans people’s right to exist in spaces without them being a part of the conversation. Trans people are perfectly able to join this thread and add to the discussion. No-one is suggesting they shouldn't exist. Just that some spaces need to be single sex. The language people are using is as if they haven’t considered how a trans person might feel reading the way they’re being spoken about. I’m not talking about the opinion on this debate I’m talking about the way trans people are being discussed. What have I said that you think is objectionable? Because unlike swing, I haven't called anyone a name. " At what point did I refer to you though? I’m actually not talking about you. I said people? Also I don’t see that calling someone a terf is any different to calling someone a homophobe or a transphobe or a racist etc? But I may be wrong on that | |||
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"There’s another thread on the forums right now where women’s feelings about men being a threat are being discussed So you either need to take those feelings on and grant women the ability to not have men in the ward with them for their safety Or you need to dismiss those thoughts and tell her to put her feelings and just get over her uneasy feelings of not being safe Because unless men stop becoming a threat when they transition through some medical magic, then we gotta pick. To what extent are trans women a problem? Because those statistics exist and they don't support this argument. Additionally, women who are passionate about this subject are not all women. Classic sexism. All men are different, special, unique, and we can't tar them with the same brush. Stop persecuting men! Meanwhile activists tar all women as falling under one hateful nasty illogical camp. Pity the poor cowering women. They're so scared! They're unable to look at statistics and realise this has no factual basis. Cater to them, like small children. Fuck all of that noise. So trans women aren’t a problem but potentially men are At what point during transition do men stop becoming a problem? I don't know. I suspect more analysis needs to be done, but the statistics do not support trans women being a genuine threat - in fact they're more likely to be attacked. Perhaps people with 'female brains' (problematic construction unsupported by evidence, but let's run with it) are less likely to attack people, and those who transition are less violent all along. In the meantime, in the spirit of "stop demonising men", please stop demonising women by assuming that all or even most of us are this illogical or hysterical, because we're not. I'm not illogical or hysterical. But I don't agree that trans women should be on female wards. Are your arguments supported by evidence of increases in attacks by trans women? My point to the other poster is what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I am a woman. An F was put on my birth certificate immediately after I was born, and it hasn't been changed. I have had periods since late primary school. I've had gynaecological surgery, twice. I will not be told that all women are in favour of this punitive, illogical, hysterical front for fascism, because I am a woman, and I am not in favour of this. I am also a woman and I have a different point of view. I believe it's the view that most of the country share. Gender is not sex. Sometimes sex matters and it cannot be ignored for single sex spaces like hospital wards. That's neither illogical nor a front for facism. Do the statistics support your position? I believe that the historical parallels and the way in which this movement has moved in other places suggest that it does become a front for fascism. The fact that people who believe this are personally not fascists does not change the sociological patterns, nor the concerning behaviour of some leaders with strong historical parallels. I think that resources need to be allocated carefully and patients - all patients, not just cis ones - should be treated with dignity. I don't think I have more of a right to dignity than the person in the bed next to me, whether they have a penis, a vagina, or a pumpkin. How many assaults by or on trans people would be ok statistically? Id say zero. And yes I think everyone deserves dignity too. " I want the outcome with the least assaults. Which should be based on evidence, not feelings. By the way, there's a great deal of evidence that rejecting someone's chosen gender results in significant harm to them. | |||
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"Also, just mad reading the way some people discuss trans people’s right to exist in spaces without them being a part of the conversation. Trans people are perfectly able to join this thread and add to the discussion. No-one is suggesting they shouldn't exist. Just that some spaces need to be single sex. And people keep calling them men. When they’re not men. That's a good point. At what point of their transition male to female or female to male do they "change" sex? Because (I accept my ignorance here) someone just saying I choose to identify as surely can't be sufficient to put them in a single sex ward? That’s the thing no one wants to answer If men are a threat but trans women aren’t, exactly where in the transition does the threat stop? So we either have to admit men aren’t a threat and that we have open wards Or you need to explain to me what part of the transition makes a trans woman not a threat " The vast majority of men aren’t sex offenders. The vast majority of trans aren’t sex offenders. The fact that the latter group are already a tiny fraction of society (around 0.5% according to census) is the difference. | |||
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"Also, just mad reading the way some people discuss trans people’s right to exist in spaces without them being a part of the conversation. Trans people are perfectly able to join this thread and add to the discussion. No-one is suggesting they shouldn't exist. Just that some spaces need to be single sex. The language people are using is as if they haven’t considered how a trans person might feel reading the way they’re being spoken about. I’m not talking about the opinion on this debate I’m talking about the way trans people are being discussed. What have I said that you think is objectionable? Because unlike swing, I haven't called anyone a name. At what point did I refer to you though? I’m actually not talking about you. I said people? Also I don’t see that calling someone a terf is any different to calling someone a homophobe or a transphobe or a racist etc? But I may be wrong on that" I was asking if you felt I had said objectionable things in this thread. Yes, calling someone a TERF is an insult in my book. I am not a TERF. | |||
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"Also, just mad reading the way some people discuss trans people’s right to exist in spaces without them being a part of the conversation. Trans people are perfectly able to join this thread and add to the discussion. No-one is suggesting they shouldn't exist. Just that some spaces need to be single sex. And people keep calling them men. When they’re not men. That's a good point. At what point of their transition male to female or female to male do they "change" sex? Because (I accept my ignorance here) someone just saying I choose to identify as surely can't be sufficient to put them in a single sex ward? That’s the thing no one wants to answer If men are a threat but trans women aren’t, exactly where in the transition does the threat stop? So we either have to admit men aren’t a threat and that we have open wards Or you need to explain to me what part of the transition makes a trans woman not a threat The vast majority of men aren’t sex offenders. The vast majority of trans aren’t sex offenders. The fact that the latter group are already a tiny fraction of society (around 0.5% according to census) is the difference." Funny how there's a group who go "not all men!" Even less trans women, but somehow all of them. right. make it make sense | |||
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"Also, just mad reading the way some people discuss trans people’s right to exist in spaces without them being a part of the conversation. Trans people are perfectly able to join this thread and add to the discussion. No-one is suggesting they shouldn't exist. Just that some spaces need to be single sex. And people keep calling them men. When they’re not men. Well I guess we agree on lots, but not that people can change sex. but isn’t there a difference between calling me male, as in what I am biologically, and calling me a man? Seen as gender and sex are not the same. Why don’t people respect *gender* identity?" I am not following. Someone can identify as a man/male - gender. Or be a man/male - sex. That's my take. I don't have a gender identity. I can respect that others do. | |||
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"Also, just mad reading the way some people discuss trans people’s right to exist in spaces without them being a part of the conversation. Trans people are perfectly able to join this thread and add to the discussion. No-one is suggesting they shouldn't exist. Just that some spaces need to be single sex. The language people are using is as if they haven’t considered how a trans person might feel reading the way they’re being spoken about. I’m not talking about the opinion on this debate I’m talking about the way trans people are being discussed. What have I said that you think is objectionable? Because unlike swing, I haven't called anyone a name. At what point did I refer to you though? I’m actually not talking about you. I said people? Also I don’t see that calling someone a terf is any different to calling someone a homophobe or a transphobe or a racist etc? But I may be wrong on that I was asking if you felt I had said objectionable things in this thread. Yes, calling someone a TERF is an insult in my book. I am not a TERF. " Cool. The kumquat playbook is illogical, non-evidence based, and based on fear of the other. These types of movements are historically linked to a rise in fascism, and a sociological analysis across the globe lends support to the idea that kumquats (whether they have good intentions or not) feed into support for the growth in fascist movements. Would you rather be a zucchini instead? I really don't care. | |||
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"Also, just mad reading the way some people discuss trans people’s right to exist in spaces without them being a part of the conversation. Trans people are perfectly able to join this thread and add to the discussion. No-one is suggesting they shouldn't exist. Just that some spaces need to be single sex. And people keep calling them men. When they’re not men. That's a good point. At what point of their transition male to female or female to male do they "change" sex? Because (I accept my ignorance here) someone just saying I choose to identify as surely can't be sufficient to put them in a single sex ward? That’s the thing no one wants to answer If men are a threat but trans women aren’t, exactly where in the transition does the threat stop? So we either have to admit men aren’t a threat and that we have open wards Or you need to explain to me what part of the transition makes a trans woman not a threat The vast majority of men aren’t sex offenders. The vast majority of trans aren’t sex offenders. The fact that the latter group are already a tiny fraction of society (around 0.5% according to census) is the difference." So your in the group that men aren’t a threat and we should have open wards than Amazing how so few people will just beat around the bush rather than answer it | |||
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"Also, just mad reading the way some people discuss trans people’s right to exist in spaces without them being a part of the conversation. Trans people are perfectly able to join this thread and add to the discussion. No-one is suggesting they shouldn't exist. Just that some spaces need to be single sex. And people keep calling them men. When they’re not men. That's a good point. At what point of their transition male to female or female to male do they "change" sex? Because (I accept my ignorance here) someone just saying I choose to identify as surely can't be sufficient to put them in a single sex ward? That’s the thing no one wants to answer If men are a threat but trans women aren’t, exactly where in the transition does the threat stop? So we either have to admit men aren’t a threat and that we have open wards Or you need to explain to me what part of the transition makes a trans woman not a threat The vast majority of men aren’t sex offenders. The vast majority of trans aren’t sex offenders. The fact that the latter group are already a tiny fraction of society (around 0.5% according to census) is the difference. So your in the group that men aren’t a threat and we should have open wards than Amazing how so few people will just beat around the bush rather than answer it " I'm happy to have open wards. I said so earlier. What I'm against is demonising a group without any evidence supporting the changes proposed. | |||
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"Also, just mad reading the way some people discuss trans people’s right to exist in spaces without them being a part of the conversation. Trans people are perfectly able to join this thread and add to the discussion. No-one is suggesting they shouldn't exist. Just that some spaces need to be single sex. And people keep calling them men. When they’re not men. Well I guess we agree on lots, but not that people can change sex. but isn’t there a difference between calling me male, as in what I am biologically, and calling me a man? Seen as gender and sex are not the same. Why don’t people respect *gender* identity? I am not following. Someone can identify as a man/male - gender. Or be a man/male - sex. That's my take. I don't have a gender identity. I can respect that others do. " Well I disagree. Men to me is referring to their gender. Male refers to your biological sex. | |||
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"Also, just mad reading the way some people discuss trans people’s right to exist in spaces without them being a part of the conversation. Trans people are perfectly able to join this thread and add to the discussion. No-one is suggesting they shouldn't exist. Just that some spaces need to be single sex. The language people are using is as if they haven’t considered how a trans person might feel reading the way they’re being spoken about. I’m not talking about the opinion on this debate I’m talking about the way trans people are being discussed. What have I said that you think is objectionable? Because unlike swing, I haven't called anyone a name. At what point did I refer to you though? I’m actually not talking about you. I said people? Also I don’t see that calling someone a terf is any different to calling someone a homophobe or a transphobe or a racist etc? But I may be wrong on that I was asking if you felt I had said objectionable things in this thread. Yes, calling someone a TERF is an insult in my book. I am not a TERF. Cool. The kumquat playbook is illogical, non-evidence based, and based on fear of the other. These types of movements are historically linked to a rise in fascism, and a sociological analysis across the globe lends support to the idea that kumquats (whether they have good intentions or not) feed into support for the growth in fascist movements. Would you rather be a zucchini instead? I really don't care." I have opinions you disagree with. I've been polite throughout. I cannot say the same for you. | |||
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"Also, just mad reading the way some people discuss trans people’s right to exist in spaces without them being a part of the conversation. Trans people are perfectly able to join this thread and add to the discussion. No-one is suggesting they shouldn't exist. Just that some spaces need to be single sex. And people keep calling them men. When they’re not men. That's a good point. At what point of their transition male to female or female to male do they "change" sex? Because (I accept my ignorance here) someone just saying I choose to identify as surely can't be sufficient to put them in a single sex ward? That’s the thing no one wants to answer If men are a threat but trans women aren’t, exactly where in the transition does the threat stop? So we either have to admit men aren’t a threat and that we have open wards Or you need to explain to me what part of the transition makes a trans woman not a threat The vast majority of men aren’t sex offenders. The vast majority of trans aren’t sex offenders. The fact that the latter group are already a tiny fraction of society (around 0.5% according to census) is the difference. So your in the group that men aren’t a threat and we should have open wards than Amazing how so few people will just beat around the bush rather than answer it " I’ve already said that. In a properly staffed facility (there’s the problem, not trans), with a few exceptions for particular ailments, mixed wards are no problem. No beating around the bush here. | |||
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"l Genuinely, don’t fall for it and get drawn into the arguments, it’s literally the government playing you for a fool to distract you from the years of failure ahead of an upcoming election. " It’s an age-old tactic. Works well. | |||
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"Also, just mad reading the way some people discuss trans people’s right to exist in spaces without them being a part of the conversation. Trans people are perfectly able to join this thread and add to the discussion. No-one is suggesting they shouldn't exist. Just that some spaces need to be single sex. And people keep calling them men. When they’re not men. That's a good point. At what point of their transition male to female or female to male do they "change" sex? Because (I accept my ignorance here) someone just saying I choose to identify as surely can't be sufficient to put them in a single sex ward? That’s the thing no one wants to answer If men are a threat but trans women aren’t, exactly where in the transition does the threat stop? So we either have to admit men aren’t a threat and that we have open wards Or you need to explain to me what part of the transition makes a trans woman not a threat The vast majority of men aren’t sex offenders. The vast majority of trans aren’t sex offenders. The fact that the latter group are already a tiny fraction of society (around 0.5% according to census) is the difference. So your in the group that men aren’t a threat and we should have open wards than Amazing how so few people will just beat around the bush rather than answer it I'm happy to have open wards. I said so earlier. What I'm against is demonising a group without any evidence supporting the changes proposed." So your the open ward group too then Great. At least you on a side that makes sense What I don’t like are people in the middle If you think men are a threat and wards should be separated, but trans women should be allowed in women’s wards, I personally can’t agree with that because it doesn’t make sense | |||
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"Also, just mad reading the way some people discuss trans people’s right to exist in spaces without them being a part of the conversation. Trans people are perfectly able to join this thread and add to the discussion. No-one is suggesting they shouldn't exist. Just that some spaces need to be single sex. "  | |||
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"Also, just mad reading the way some people discuss trans people’s right to exist in spaces without them being a part of the conversation. Trans people are perfectly able to join this thread and add to the discussion. No-one is suggesting they shouldn't exist. Just that some spaces need to be single sex. And people keep calling them men. When they’re not men. That's a good point. At what point of their transition male to female or female to male do they "change" sex? Because (I accept my ignorance here) someone just saying I choose to identify as surely can't be sufficient to put them in a single sex ward? That’s the thing no one wants to answer If men are a threat but trans women aren’t, exactly where in the transition does the threat stop? So we either have to admit men aren’t a threat and that we have open wards Or you need to explain to me what part of the transition makes a trans woman not a threat The vast majority of men aren’t sex offenders. The vast majority of trans aren’t sex offenders. The fact that the latter group are already a tiny fraction of society (around 0.5% according to census) is the difference. So your in the group that men aren’t a threat and we should have open wards than Amazing how so few people will just beat around the bush rather than answer it I'm happy to have open wards. I said so earlier. What I'm against is demonising a group without any evidence supporting the changes proposed. So your the open ward group too then Great. At least you on a side that makes sense What I don’t like are people in the middle If you think men are a threat and wards should be separated, but trans women should be allowed in women’s wards, I personally can’t agree with that because it doesn’t make sense " Why not? Trans women are women. | |||
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"Also, just mad reading the way some people discuss trans people’s right to exist in spaces without them being a part of the conversation. Trans people are perfectly able to join this thread and add to the discussion. No-one is suggesting they shouldn't exist. Just that some spaces need to be single sex. And people keep calling them men. When they’re not men. That's a good point. At what point of their transition male to female or female to male do they "change" sex? Because (I accept my ignorance here) someone just saying I choose to identify as surely can't be sufficient to put them in a single sex ward? That’s the thing no one wants to answer If men are a threat but trans women aren’t, exactly where in the transition does the threat stop? So we either have to admit men aren’t a threat and that we have open wards Or you need to explain to me what part of the transition makes a trans woman not a threat The vast majority of men aren’t sex offenders. The vast majority of trans aren’t sex offenders. The fact that the latter group are already a tiny fraction of society (around 0.5% according to census) is the difference. So your in the group that men aren’t a threat and we should have open wards than Amazing how so few people will just beat around the bush rather than answer it I'm happy to have open wards. I said so earlier. What I'm against is demonising a group without any evidence supporting the changes proposed. So your the open ward group too then Great. At least you on a side that makes sense What I don’t like are people in the middle If you think men are a threat and wards should be separated, but trans women should be allowed in women’s wards, I personally can’t agree with that because it doesn’t make sense Why not? Trans women are women." I don’t believe they are, I believe trans women are trans women and I don’t think just because you transition you suddenly aren’t a threat If you want men segregated out of women’s wards but not trans women you are a hypocrite in my opinion. | |||
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"I don’t think just because you transition you suddenly aren’t a threat " Are all men a threat? Or is it just some? And if not, how does the threat level calculate down when you’re dealing with 0.5% of the population? | |||
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"Also, just mad reading the way some people discuss trans people’s right to exist in spaces without them being a part of the conversation. Trans people are perfectly able to join this thread and add to the discussion. No-one is suggesting they shouldn't exist. Just that some spaces need to be single sex. And people keep calling them men. When they’re not men. That's a good point. At what point of their transition male to female or female to male do they "change" sex? Because (I accept my ignorance here) someone just saying I choose to identify as surely can't be sufficient to put them in a single sex ward? That’s the thing no one wants to answer If men are a threat but trans women aren’t, exactly where in the transition does the threat stop? So we either have to admit men aren’t a threat and that we have open wards Or you need to explain to me what part of the transition makes a trans woman not a threat The vast majority of men aren’t sex offenders. The vast majority of trans aren’t sex offenders. The fact that the latter group are already a tiny fraction of society (around 0.5% according to census) is the difference. So your in the group that men aren’t a threat and we should have open wards than Amazing how so few people will just beat around the bush rather than answer it I'm happy to have open wards. I said so earlier. What I'm against is demonising a group without any evidence supporting the changes proposed. So your the open ward group too then Great. At least you on a side that makes sense What I don’t like are people in the middle If you think men are a threat and wards should be separated, but trans women should be allowed in women’s wards, I personally can’t agree with that because it doesn’t make sense Why not? Trans women are women." Exactly. Women only wards must include Trans women, it’s the only logical conclusion. | |||
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"I don’t think just because you transition you suddenly aren’t a threat Are all men a threat? Or is it just some? And if not, how does the threat level calculate down when you’re dealing with 0.5% of the population? " It’s either they are or they aren’t and then MtF trans should follow the same route unless we can medically show us which part of transitioning changes that | |||
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"- what do you make of it all DanBerks? Be interesting to get your take on it being the thread starter "I think there are pros and cons to it
What’s your view? | |||
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"I don’t think just because you transition you suddenly aren’t a threat Are all men a threat? Or is it just some? And if not, how does the threat level calculate down when you’re dealing with 0.5% of the population? It’s either they are or they aren’t and then MtF trans should follow the same route unless we can medically show us which part of transitioning changes that " So you want to place trans women at greater risk of assault in a male ward? I respect your right to that opinion. Even if I vehemently disagree with it. | |||
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"I don’t think just because you transition you suddenly aren’t a threat Are all men a threat? Or is it just some? And if not, how does the threat level calculate down when you’re dealing with 0.5% of the population? It’s either they are or they aren’t and then MtF trans should follow the same route unless we can medically show us which part of transitioning changes that " Generally accepted, scientifically validated gender care is that we treat people as the gender of their choosing from the moment that they express it (initially as a social transition). So there's the moment you accept trans women as women  | |||
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"I don’t think just because you transition you suddenly aren’t a threat Are all men a threat? Or is it just some? And if not, how does the threat level calculate down when you’re dealing with 0.5% of the population? It’s either they are or they aren’t and then MtF trans should follow the same route unless we can medically show us which part of transitioning changes that So you want to place trans women at greater risk of assault in a male ward? I respect your right to that opinion. Even if I vehemently disagree with it. " I haven’t said what happens to them. I think the NHS is currently looking at giving them their own rooms But no, I haven’t made any statements | |||
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"I don’t think just because you transition you suddenly aren’t a threat Are all men a threat? Or is it just some? And if not, how does the threat level calculate down when you’re dealing with 0.5% of the population? It’s either they are or they aren’t and then MtF trans should follow the same route unless we can medically show us which part of transitioning changes that So you want to place trans women at greater risk of assault in a male ward? I respect your right to that opinion. Even if I vehemently disagree with it. " I respect everyone's right to an opinion and I will dunk hard on ones I think are awful | |||
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"Also, just mad reading the way some people discuss trans people’s right to exist in spaces without them being a part of the conversation. Trans people are perfectly able to join this thread and add to the discussion. No-one is suggesting they shouldn't exist. Just that some spaces need to be single sex. And people keep calling them men. When they’re not men. That's a good point. At what point of their transition male to female or female to male do they "change" sex? Because (I accept my ignorance here) someone just saying I choose to identify as surely can't be sufficient to put them in a single sex ward? That’s the thing no one wants to answer If men are a threat but trans women aren’t, exactly where in the transition does the threat stop? So we either have to admit men aren’t a threat and that we have open wards Or you need to explain to me what part of the transition makes a trans woman not a threat The vast majority of men aren’t sex offenders. The vast majority of trans aren’t sex offenders. The fact that the latter group are already a tiny fraction of society (around 0.5% according to census) is the difference. So your in the group that men aren’t a threat and we should have open wards than Amazing how so few people will just beat around the bush rather than answer it I'm happy to have open wards. I said so earlier. What I'm against is demonising a group without any evidence supporting the changes proposed. So your the open ward group too then Great. At least you on a side that makes sense What I don’t like are people in the middle If you think men are a threat and wards should be separated, but trans women should be allowed in women’s wards, I personally can’t agree with that because it doesn’t make sense Why not? Trans women are women. Exactly. Women only wards must include Trans women, it’s the only logical conclusion." Trans women are trans women. Their sex is not female. They should not be on a single sex ward. I don't wish trans people harm at all, but I am a woman and I want to preserve my safety, dignity and privacy and only be around other women whilst I am in hospital. And I want the same for my mother, daughter and sisters. | |||
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"- what do you make of it all DanBerks? Be interesting to get your take on it being the thread starter
I think there are pros and cons to it
What’s your view? "My view is there shouldn’t be trans women on women’s wards. What in your view are the pro’s? | |||
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"There’s another thread on the forums right now where women’s feelings about men being a threat are being discussed So you either need to take those feelings on and grant women the ability to not have men in the ward with them for their safety Or you need to dismiss those thoughts and tell her to put her feelings and just get over her uneasy feelings of not being safe Because unless men stop becoming a threat when they transition through some medical magic, then we gotta pick. " This is genius. Men are monsters but Trans-woman who are biologically male shouldn't be feared. Mind blown | |||
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"I don’t think just because you transition you suddenly aren’t a threat Are all men a threat? Or is it just some? And if not, how does the threat level calculate down when you’re dealing with 0.5% of the population? It’s either they are or they aren’t and then MtF trans should follow the same route unless we can medically show us which part of transitioning changes that Generally accepted, scientifically validated gender care is that we treat people as the gender of their choosing from the moment that they express it (initially as a social transition). So there's the moment you accept trans women as women "Surely you have to balance that with the care and needs of the other people in a shared ward though? But it’s all a bit off topic for me. I’m still yet to see any anyone you support not letting men in a ward with women, but those issues magically go aware when they transition. Which part of transition causes that? And beyond that, women that do feel uncomfortable. Why aren’t their needs met? We would meet them if it wad a man in the ward, but they aren’t to be accepted if it’s a trans woman All just seems a bit confusing to me | |||
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"I don’t think just because you transition you suddenly aren’t a threat Are all men a threat? Or is it just some? And if not, how does the threat level calculate down when you’re dealing with 0.5% of the population? It’s either they are or they aren’t and then MtF trans should follow the same route unless we can medically show us which part of transitioning changes that Generally accepted, scientifically validated gender care is that we treat people as the gender of their choosing from the moment that they express it (initially as a social transition). So there's the moment you accept trans women as women
Surely you have to balance that with the care and needs of the other people in a shared ward though?
But it’s all a bit off topic for me. I’m still yet to see any anyone you support not letting men in a ward with women, but those issues magically go aware when they transition. Which part of transition causes that?
And beyond that, women that do feel uncomfortable. Why aren’t their needs met? We would meet them if it wad a man in the ward, but they aren’t to be accepted if it’s a trans woman
All just seems a bit confusing to me "Why does every discomfort have to be met? I have sensory sensitivities due to my autism. Hospitals are fucking dire for that. It's likely that this has negative consequences for me. I've never said a fucking word about it when I've been in hospital, because the world isn't about me. | |||
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"I don’t think just because you transition you suddenly aren’t a threat Are all men a threat? Or is it just some? And if not, how does the threat level calculate down when you’re dealing with 0.5% of the population? It’s either they are or they aren’t and then MtF trans should follow the same route unless we can medically show us which part of transitioning changes that Generally accepted, scientifically validated gender care is that we treat people as the gender of their choosing from the moment that they express it (initially as a social transition). So there's the moment you accept trans women as women
Surely you have to balance that with the care and needs of the other people in a shared ward though?
But it’s all a bit off topic for me. I’m still yet to see any anyone you support not letting men in a ward with women, but those issues magically go aware when they transition. Which part of transition causes that?
And beyond that, women that do feel uncomfortable. Why aren’t their needs met? We would meet them if it wad a man in the ward, but they aren’t to be accepted if it’s a trans woman
All just seems a bit confusing to me
Why does every discomfort have to be met? I have sensory sensitivities due to my autism. Hospitals are fucking dire for that. It's likely that this has negative consequences for me. I've never said a fucking word about it when I've been in hospital, because the world isn't about me."Fair enough, so you wouldn’t mind just open wards with everyone mixed. That’s fine | |||
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"I think that the equality act would need to be amended to make this happen. Therefore, this looks more like another Government "click bait" non-policy/statement. A bit like meat bans, and war on motorists. Basically "we'll not be able to do anything about this, but look there are groups we can generate a bit more anger towards..."" Real British people can't accept slower speed limits. We'd rather risk killing kids when we hit them rather than injure them Playing to the fucking idiots in the room. That's all they've got. | |||
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"So where do trans women go? To keep them safe? I think that’s a fair question here because their safety is important considering how much risk they are at of violence. " The NHS is considering private rooms | |||
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"So where do trans women go? To keep them safe? I think that’s a fair question here because their safety is important considering how much risk they are at of violence. " Yes. Indeed. Male wards would be the worst places, given the evidence out there. | |||
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"So where do trans women go? To keep them safe? I think that’s a fair question here because their safety is important considering how much risk they are at of violence. The NHS is considering private rooms " Is that an appropriate use of scant resources? Are women allowed to request female specialists because male specialists (in the evidence!) are more likely to attack female patients? Or is it take it or leave it? | |||
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"So where do trans women go? To keep them safe? I think that’s a fair question here because their safety is important considering how much risk they are at of violence. The NHS is considering private rooms Is that an appropriate use of scant resources? Are women allowed to request female specialists because male specialists (in the evidence!) are more likely to attack female patients? Or is it take it or leave it?" The NHS seem to be considering it might be | |||
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"So where do trans women go? To keep them safe? I think that’s a fair question here because their safety is important considering how much risk they are at of violence. The NHS is considering private rooms " Not going to be possible this side of the new hospital builds though is it. Don’t currently have enough beds as it is. Out of interest…. How many people commenting on this would genuinely, make a complaint if the ward they were on was mixed sex or had trans patients? I feel like we all talk and have lots of opinions on stuff in an ideal world, but through experience, I just think most patients are genuinely happy being cared for. Would you all actually complain? | |||
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"So where do trans women go? To keep them safe? I think that’s a fair question here because their safety is important considering how much risk they are at of violence. The NHS is considering private rooms Not going to be possible this side of the new hospital builds though is it. Don’t currently have enough beds as it is. Out of interest…. How many people commenting on this would genuinely, make a complaint if the ward they were on was mixed sex or had trans patients? I feel like we all talk and have lots of opinions on stuff in an ideal world, but through experience, I just think most patients are genuinely happy being cared for. Would you all actually complain? " I don’t give a shit as long as I’m getting the best card I can get. However I think it’s unfair to because I wouldn’t care, you shouldn’t either. Plus I’m a guy. Technically I’m the biggest threat there, unless I transition, then I’m not a threat | |||
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"So where do trans women go? To keep them safe? I think that’s a fair question here because their safety is important considering how much risk they are at of violence. The NHS is considering private rooms Is that an appropriate use of scant resources? Are women allowed to request female specialists because male specialists (in the evidence!) are more likely to attack female patients? Or is it take it or leave it? The NHS seem to be considering it might be " I don't think it's a worthwhile use of resources. I think we should seek evidence based care. Unfortunately that includes a degree of compromise with things that make us uncomfortable, and a non-zero level of risk. (Next time I'm in hospital, what's my risk of being attacked by a staff member, or a cis-female patient? Why aren't we installing private rooms for everyone with convoluted ten people checks to absolutely reduce the risk to definitely zero? Because it's financially irrational and utterly impossible. Why is this different?) | |||
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"I think this is a case of dealing with a huge, terrible car crash by directing people's attention to a person who fell off their bike. Look! Even though there's a great big, horrible mess we'll put a plaster on this person's knee I agree, this is a gaze diverting tactic; but Trans-gender females in sport, now there's a real debate... but maybe for another day. Very true. Wait till they get a decent television audience to see it really lift off. Meanwhile back in hospital they are all on strike anyway so don't rush. " I'm sat on a hospital surgical assessment unit right now. I've been seen by a healthcare support worker, a nurse and a doctor. The doctor is now liaising with a consultant. It's a mixed unit, a man next to me who has gentleman's issues. A purple curtain separates us. | |||
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"So where do trans women go? To keep them safe? I think that’s a fair question here because their safety is important considering how much risk they are at of violence. The NHS is considering private rooms Is that an appropriate use of scant resources? Are women allowed to request female specialists because male specialists (in the evidence!) are more likely to attack female patients? Or is it take it or leave it? The NHS seem to be considering it might be I don't think it's a worthwhile use of resources. I think we should seek evidence based care. Unfortunately that includes a degree of compromise with things that make us uncomfortable, and a non-zero level of risk. (Next time I'm in hospital, what's my risk of being attacked by a staff member, or a cis-female patient? Why aren't we installing private rooms for everyone with convoluted ten people checks to absolutely reduce the risk to definitely zero? Because it's financially irrational and utterly impossible. Why is this different?)" It’s different because of the very obvious difference in cost and space required to do your idea vs putting a tiny fraction of the population in a private room where possible. | |||
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"So where do trans women go? To keep them safe? I think that’s a fair question here because their safety is important considering how much risk they are at of violence. The NHS is considering private rooms Is that an appropriate use of scant resources? Are women allowed to request female specialists because male specialists (in the evidence!) are more likely to attack female patients? Or is it take it or leave it? The NHS seem to be considering it might be I don't think it's a worthwhile use of resources. I think we should seek evidence based care. Unfortunately that includes a degree of compromise with things that make us uncomfortable, and a non-zero level of risk. (Next time I'm in hospital, what's my risk of being attacked by a staff member, or a cis-female patient? Why aren't we installing private rooms for everyone with convoluted ten people checks to absolutely reduce the risk to definitely zero? Because it's financially irrational and utterly impossible. Why is this different?) It’s different because of the very obvious difference in cost and space required to do your idea vs putting a tiny fraction of the population in a private room where possible. " So it's OK to do cost-ineffective things that reduce a patient's sense of psychological wellbeing (denial of their identity) when it's only a minority? Separate but equal? | |||
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"When I was last in hospital the ward was mixed, there was a man in the bed next to me. My mum was in a ward with a trans woman. We both received excellent care. I think that there are bigger issues with hospitals to fix than trans women being on wards with women. " Exactly this. Nothing more than playing Poltics pandering to the right. | |||
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"So where do trans women go? To keep them safe? I think that’s a fair question here because their safety is important considering how much risk they are at of violence. The NHS is considering private rooms Is that an appropriate use of scant resources? Are women allowed to request female specialists because male specialists (in the evidence!) are more likely to attack female patients? Or is it take it or leave it? The NHS seem to be considering it might be I don't think it's a worthwhile use of resources. I think we should seek evidence based care. Unfortunately that includes a degree of compromise with things that make us uncomfortable, and a non-zero level of risk. (Next time I'm in hospital, what's my risk of being attacked by a staff member, or a cis-female patient? Why aren't we installing private rooms for everyone with convoluted ten people checks to absolutely reduce the risk to definitely zero? Because it's financially irrational and utterly impossible. Why is this different?) It’s different because of the very obvious difference in cost and space required to do your idea vs putting a tiny fraction of the population in a private room where possible. So it's OK to do cost-ineffective things that reduce a patient's sense of psychological wellbeing (denial of their identity) when it's only a minority? Separate but equal?" Possibly yes, if it’s deemed to make a lot more people more comfortable You said it yourself “ Why does every discomfort have to be met?” | |||
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"I think this is a case of dealing with a huge, terrible car crash by directing people's attention to a person who fell off their bike. Look! Even though there's a great big, horrible mess we'll put a plaster on this person's knee I agree, this is a gaze diverting tactic; but Trans-gender females in sport, now there's a real debate... but maybe for another day. Very true. Wait till they get a decent television audience to see it really lift off. Meanwhile back in hospital they are all on strike anyway so don't rush. I'm sat on a hospital surgical assessment unit right now. I've been seen by a healthcare support worker, a nurse and a doctor. The doctor is now liaising with a consultant. It's a mixed unit, a man next to me who has gentleman's issues. A purple curtain separates us. " I mentioned earlier in the thread waiting for gynae surgery with a man in the bed next to me. My (male) gynaecologist was rather loud with all the delicate questions and his incandescent rage that I'd never had children and didn't plan to (for better or worse, the female pelvis being involved, those questions get asked). The guy in the bed next to me, not the women across the way, was the one who saved me from my freeze response and told me that the way the doctor had treated me was entirely unacceptable. I'll remember him for the rest of my life. He was the shining light in an incredibly traumatic moment. | |||
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"A trans woman is a woman end of." That’s settled it guys! Someone send “end of” Thank god the voice of reason turned up | |||
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"So where do trans women go? To keep them safe? I think that’s a fair question here because their safety is important considering how much risk they are at of violence. The NHS is considering private rooms Is that an appropriate use of scant resources? Are women allowed to request female specialists because male specialists (in the evidence!) are more likely to attack female patients? Or is it take it or leave it? The NHS seem to be considering it might be I don't think it's a worthwhile use of resources. I think we should seek evidence based care. Unfortunately that includes a degree of compromise with things that make us uncomfortable, and a non-zero level of risk. (Next time I'm in hospital, what's my risk of being attacked by a staff member, or a cis-female patient? Why aren't we installing private rooms for everyone with convoluted ten people checks to absolutely reduce the risk to definitely zero? Because it's financially irrational and utterly impossible. Why is this different?) It’s different because of the very obvious difference in cost and space required to do your idea vs putting a tiny fraction of the population in a private room where possible. So it's OK to do cost-ineffective things that reduce a patient's sense of psychological wellbeing (denial of their identity) when it's only a minority? Separate but equal? Possibly yes, if it’s deemed to make a lot more people more comfortable You said it yourself “ Why does every discomfort have to be met?” " I take it you're not familiar with the term "separate but equal" then Those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it Those who do study history are doomed to facepalm repeatedly | |||
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"- what do you make of it all DanBerks? Be interesting to get your take on it being the thread starter
I think there are pros and cons to it
What’s your view?
My view is there shouldn’t be trans women on women’s wards.
What in your view are the pro’s? "The pros of the proposal (ie NOT having trans women in the wards) or the pros of having them in? | |||
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"So where do trans women go? To keep them safe? I think that’s a fair question here because their safety is important considering how much risk they are at of violence. The NHS is considering private rooms Is that an appropriate use of scant resources? Are women allowed to request female specialists because male specialists (in the evidence!) are more likely to attack female patients? Or is it take it or leave it? The NHS seem to be considering it might be I don't think it's a worthwhile use of resources. I think we should seek evidence based care. Unfortunately that includes a degree of compromise with things that make us uncomfortable, and a non-zero level of risk. (Next time I'm in hospital, what's my risk of being attacked by a staff member, or a cis-female patient? Why aren't we installing private rooms for everyone with convoluted ten people checks to absolutely reduce the risk to definitely zero? Because it's financially irrational and utterly impossible. Why is this different?) It’s different because of the very obvious difference in cost and space required to do your idea vs putting a tiny fraction of the population in a private room where possible. So it's OK to do cost-ineffective things that reduce a patient's sense of psychological wellbeing (denial of their identity) when it's only a minority? Separate but equal? Possibly yes, if it’s deemed to make a lot more people more comfortable You said it yourself “ Why does every discomfort have to be met?” I take it you're not familiar with the term "separate but equal" then Those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it Those who do study history are doomed to facepalm repeatedly" No im familiar, I just think your asking biased questions which can’t be answered in a fair way Oh, so you want to force a woman to feel scared or in danger by sharing a ward with a trans woman? And deny her the ability to receive life saving medical care? Don’t answer that, because it’s never a question I’d actually ask, because it’s quite obviously biased to support my view and it’s always going to make you look like the bad person answering it I don’t think those kinds of questions are productive for the discussion, it’s just what someone asks when they care more about being right than getting to a fair and equitable answer for everyone | |||
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"A trans woman is a woman end of." Nonsense. | |||
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"A trans woman is a woman end of. Nonsense. " I think you’ll find she said “end of” No discussion. It’s the truth | |||
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"So where do trans women go? To keep them safe? I think that’s a fair question here because their safety is important considering how much risk they are at of violence. The NHS is considering private rooms Is that an appropriate use of scant resources? Are women allowed to request female specialists because male specialists (in the evidence!) are more likely to attack female patients? Or is it take it or leave it? The NHS seem to be considering it might be I don't think it's a worthwhile use of resources. I think we should seek evidence based care. Unfortunately that includes a degree of compromise with things that make us uncomfortable, and a non-zero level of risk. (Next time I'm in hospital, what's my risk of being attacked by a staff member, or a cis-female patient? Why aren't we installing private rooms for everyone with convoluted ten people checks to absolutely reduce the risk to definitely zero? Because it's financially irrational and utterly impossible. Why is this different?) It’s different because of the very obvious difference in cost and space required to do your idea vs putting a tiny fraction of the population in a private room where possible. So it's OK to do cost-ineffective things that reduce a patient's sense of psychological wellbeing (denial of their identity) when it's only a minority? Separate but equal? Possibly yes, if it’s deemed to make a lot more people more comfortable You said it yourself “ Why does every discomfort have to be met?” I take it you're not familiar with the term "separate but equal" then Those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it Those who do study history are doomed to facepalm repeatedly No im familiar, I just think your asking biased questions which can’t be answered in a fair way Oh, so you want to force a woman to feel scared or in danger by sharing a ward with a trans woman? And deny her the ability to receive life saving medical care? Don’t answer that, because it’s never a question I’d actually ask, because it’s quite obviously biased to support my view and it’s always going to make you look like the bad person answering it I don’t think those kinds of questions are productive for the discussion, it’s just what someone asks when they care more about being right than getting to a fair and equitable answer for everyone " Yeah, I do think a woman should be "forced to feel scared". Those fears are irrational. If a white woman back in the day had been scared by sharing a ward with a Black woman, I would have told her to suck it the fuck up too. Equity involves looking at the power dynamics involved and considering them when making decisions. And evidence. Neither point in favour of catering to a hate group like the kumquats | |||
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"That’s the new proposal being suggested from the Health Secretary. What do we make of all that then, Fabsters?
Apols for scooping Tom on this one, although I expect a thread will still come tomorrow
https://news.sky.com/story/amp/trans-women-to-be-banned-from-female-hospital-wards-under-new-tory-proposals-12975456"Do you mean what do we really think about it or is this an opportunity for everyone to show how accepting of diversity they are? | |||
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"So where do trans women go? To keep them safe? I think that’s a fair question here because their safety is important considering how much risk they are at of violence. The NHS is considering private rooms Is that an appropriate use of scant resources? Are women allowed to request female specialists because male specialists (in the evidence!) are more likely to attack female patients? Or is it take it or leave it? The NHS seem to be considering it might be I don't think it's a worthwhile use of resources. I think we should seek evidence based care. Unfortunately that includes a degree of compromise with things that make us uncomfortable, and a non-zero level of risk. (Next time I'm in hospital, what's my risk of being attacked by a staff member, or a cis-female patient? Why aren't we installing private rooms for everyone with convoluted ten people checks to absolutely reduce the risk to definitely zero? Because it's financially irrational and utterly impossible. Why is this different?) It’s different because of the very obvious difference in cost and space required to do your idea vs putting a tiny fraction of the population in a private room where possible. So it's OK to do cost-ineffective things that reduce a patient's sense of psychological wellbeing (denial of their identity) when it's only a minority? Separate but equal? Possibly yes, if it’s deemed to make a lot more people more comfortable You said it yourself “ Why does every discomfort have to be met?” I take it you're not familiar with the term "separate but equal" then Those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it Those who do study history are doomed to facepalm repeatedly No im familiar, I just think your asking biased questions which can’t be answered in a fair way Oh, so you want to force a woman to feel scared or in danger by sharing a ward with a trans woman? And deny her the ability to receive life saving medical care? Don’t answer that, because it’s never a question I’d actually ask, because it’s quite obviously biased to support my view and it’s always going to make you look like the bad person answering it I don’t think those kinds of questions are productive for the discussion, it’s just what someone asks when they care more about being right than getting to a fair and equitable answer for everyone Yeah, I do think a woman should be "forced to feel scared". Those fears are irrational. If a white woman back in the day had been scared by sharing a ward with a Black woman, I would have told her to suck it the fuck up too. Equity involves looking at the power dynamics involved and considering them when making decisions. And evidence. Neither point in favour of catering to a hate group like the kumquats "That’s fair enough then, I just hope you extend that feeling that women should be forced to feel scared and unsafe into other aspects of life too | |||
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"So where do trans women go? To keep them safe? I think that’s a fair question here because their safety is important considering how much risk they are at of violence. The NHS is considering private rooms Is that an appropriate use of scant resources? Are women allowed to request female specialists because male specialists (in the evidence!) are more likely to attack female patients? Or is it take it or leave it? The NHS seem to be considering it might be I don't think it's a worthwhile use of resources. I think we should seek evidence based care. Unfortunately that includes a degree of compromise with things that make us uncomfortable, and a non-zero level of risk. (Next time I'm in hospital, what's my risk of being attacked by a staff member, or a cis-female patient? Why aren't we installing private rooms for everyone with convoluted ten people checks to absolutely reduce the risk to definitely zero? Because it's financially irrational and utterly impossible. Why is this different?) It’s different because of the very obvious difference in cost and space required to do your idea vs putting a tiny fraction of the population in a private room where possible. So it's OK to do cost-ineffective things that reduce a patient's sense of psychological wellbeing (denial of their identity) when it's only a minority? Separate but equal? Possibly yes, if it’s deemed to make a lot more people more comfortable You said it yourself “ Why does every discomfort have to be met?” I take it you're not familiar with the term "separate but equal" then Those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it Those who do study history are doomed to facepalm repeatedly No im familiar, I just think your asking biased questions which can’t be answered in a fair way Oh, so you want to force a woman to feel scared or in danger by sharing a ward with a trans woman? And deny her the ability to receive life saving medical care? Don’t answer that, because it’s never a question I’d actually ask, because it’s quite obviously biased to support my view and it’s always going to make you look like the bad person answering it I don’t think those kinds of questions are productive for the discussion, it’s just what someone asks when they care more about being right than getting to a fair and equitable answer for everyone Yeah, I do think a woman should be "forced to feel scared". Those fears are irrational. If a white woman back in the day had been scared by sharing a ward with a Black woman, I would have told her to suck it the fuck up too. Equity involves looking at the power dynamics involved and considering them when making decisions. And evidence. Neither point in favour of catering to a hate group like the kumquats
That’s fair enough then, I just hope you extend that feeling that women should be forced to feel scared and unsafe into other aspects of life too"Oh that's adorable. You're so cute. | |||
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"I don’t think just because you transition you suddenly aren’t a threat Are all men a threat? Or is it just some? And if not, how does the threat level calculate down when you’re dealing with 0.5% of the population? It’s either they are or they aren’t and then MtF trans should follow the same route unless we can medically show us which part of transitioning changes that Generally accepted, scientifically validated gender care is that we treat people as the gender of their choosing from the moment that they express it (initially as a social transition). So there's the moment you accept trans women as women
Surely you have to balance that with the care and needs of the other people in a shared ward though?
But it’s all a bit off topic for me. I’m still yet to see any anyone you support not letting men in a ward with women, but those issues magically go aware when they transition. Which part of transition causes that?
And beyond that, women that do feel uncomfortable. Why aren’t their needs met? We would meet them if it wad a man in the ward, but they aren’t to be accepted if it’s a trans woman
All just seems a bit confusing to me
Why does every discomfort have to be met? I have sensory sensitivities due to my autism. Hospitals are fucking dire for that. It's likely that this has negative consequences for me. I've never said a fucking word about it when I've been in hospital, because the world isn't about me.
Fair enough, so you wouldn’t mind just open wards with everyone mixed. That’s fine "Mixed wards in the past still had segregation - bays for women, bays for men and side rooms for those needing to be isolated. At least labour wards won't have this dilemma anytime soon (unless it's f2m pre-op). | |||
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"I don’t think just because you transition you suddenly aren’t a threat Are all men a threat? Or is it just some? And if not, how does the threat level calculate down when you’re dealing with 0.5% of the population? It’s either they are or they aren’t and then MtF trans should follow the same route unless we can medically show us which part of transitioning changes that Generally accepted, scientifically validated gender care is that we treat people as the gender of their choosing from the moment that they express it (initially as a social transition). So there's the moment you accept trans women as women
Surely you have to balance that with the care and needs of the other people in a shared ward though?
But it’s all a bit off topic for me. I’m still yet to see any anyone you support not letting men in a ward with women, but those issues magically go aware when they transition. Which part of transition causes that?
And beyond that, women that do feel uncomfortable. Why aren’t their needs met? We would meet them if it wad a man in the ward, but they aren’t to be accepted if it’s a trans woman
All just seems a bit confusing to me
Why does every discomfort have to be met? I have sensory sensitivities due to my autism. Hospitals are fucking dire for that. It's likely that this has negative consequences for me. I've never said a fucking word about it when I've been in hospital, because the world isn't about me.
Fair enough, so you wouldn’t mind just open wards with everyone mixed. That’s fine
Mixed wards in the past still had segregation - bays for women, bays for men and side rooms for those needing to be isolated.
At least labour wards won't have this dilemma anytime soon (unless it's f2m pre-op)."There was a big brouhaha a few years ago about gynae hospitals daring to use the terminology (when requested) of birthing parent, and how it was degrading motherhood. Or maybe it just gave trans men dignity | |||
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Bess | |||
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"I don’t think just because you transition you suddenly aren’t a threat Are all men a threat? Or is it just some? And if not, how does the threat level calculate down when you’re dealing with 0.5% of the population? It’s either they are or they aren’t and then MtF trans should follow the same route unless we can medically show us which part of transitioning changes that Generally accepted, scientifically validated gender care is that we treat people as the gender of their choosing from the moment that they express it (initially as a social transition). So there's the moment you accept trans women as women
Surely you have to balance that with the care and needs of the other people in a shared ward though?
But it’s all a bit off topic for me. I’m still yet to see any anyone you support not letting men in a ward with women, but those issues magically go aware when they transition. Which part of transition causes that?
And beyond that, women that do feel uncomfortable. Why aren’t their needs met? We would meet them if it wad a man in the ward, but they aren’t to be accepted if it’s a trans woman
All just seems a bit confusing to me
Why does every discomfort have to be met? I have sensory sensitivities due to my autism. Hospitals are fucking dire for that. It's likely that this has negative consequences for me. I've never said a fucking word about it when I've been in hospital, because the world isn't about me.
Fair enough, so you wouldn’t mind just open wards with everyone mixed. That’s fine
Mixed wards in the past still had segregation - bays for women, bays for men and side rooms for those needing to be isolated.
At least labour wards won't have this dilemma anytime soon (unless it's f2m pre-op).
There was a big brouhaha a few years ago about gynae hospitals daring to use the terminology (when requested) of birthing parent, and how it was degrading motherhood.
Or maybe it just gave trans men dignity "I would have guessed this was when there were two mums to be. (Eg a lesbian couple) | |||
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"Do I become a black man if I apply some dark self tanning lotion and some fake dreads? Who are you to say not if I think so? Trans Identifying Men" I met a male patient who to others, by the colour of his skin was black. He was white. NOT identifying as white, he was white (MH). He was incredibly racist against non-whites. | |||
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"I don’t think just because you transition you suddenly aren’t a threat Are all men a threat? Or is it just some? And if not, how does the threat level calculate down when you’re dealing with 0.5% of the population? It’s either they are or they aren’t and then MtF trans should follow the same route unless we can medically show us which part of transitioning changes that Generally accepted, scientifically validated gender care is that we treat people as the gender of their choosing from the moment that they express it (initially as a social transition). So there's the moment you accept trans women as women
Surely you have to balance that with the care and needs of the other people in a shared ward though?
But it’s all a bit off topic for me. I’m still yet to see any anyone you support not letting men in a ward with women, but those issues magically go aware when they transition. Which part of transition causes that?
And beyond that, women that do feel uncomfortable. Why aren’t their needs met? We would meet them if it wad a man in the ward, but they aren’t to be accepted if it’s a trans woman
All just seems a bit confusing to me
Why does every discomfort have to be met? I have sensory sensitivities due to my autism. Hospitals are fucking dire for that. It's likely that this has negative consequences for me. I've never said a fucking word about it when I've been in hospital, because the world isn't about me.
Fair enough, so you wouldn’t mind just open wards with everyone mixed. That’s fine
Mixed wards in the past still had segregation - bays for women, bays for men and side rooms for those needing to be isolated.
At least labour wards won't have this dilemma anytime soon (unless it's f2m pre-op).
There was a big brouhaha a few years ago about gynae hospitals daring to use the terminology (when requested) of birthing parent, and how it was degrading motherhood.
Or maybe it just gave trans men dignity I would have guessed this was when there were two mums to be. (Eg a lesbian couple) "It could be that too. But there was nothing going on in anything out there that suggested that a cis woman and a cis man had to change anything. It just gave more flexibility for people outside those boxes. There's definitely evidence that if there's gender neutral wording for things like pap smears, trans men are more likely to get the healthcare they need just as much as other people with those body parts. To me it's still gynaecological care (because it matches my gender - and it doesn't have to be, we can rename it turnip care and I wouldn't give a toss), and it bothers me not one bit that they call it something else so that people can get their healthcare without the pain of dysphoria. | |||
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Bess | |||
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"Also, just mad reading the way some people discuss trans people’s right to exist in spaces without them being a part of the conversation. Trans people are perfectly able to join this thread and add to the discussion. No-one is suggesting they shouldn't exist. Just that some spaces need to be single sex. And people keep calling them men. When they’re not men. That's a good point. At what point of their transition male to female or female to male do they "change" sex? Because (I accept my ignorance here) someone just saying I choose to identify as surely can't be sufficient to put them in a single sex ward? That’s the thing no one wants to answer If men are a threat but trans women aren’t, exactly where in the transition does the threat stop? So we either have to admit men aren’t a threat and that we have open wards Or you need to explain to me what part of the transition makes a trans woman not a threat The vast majority of men aren’t sex offenders. The vast majority of trans aren’t sex offenders. The fact that the latter group are already a tiny fraction of society (around 0.5% according to census) is the difference. So your in the group that men aren’t a threat and we should have open wards than Amazing how so few people will just beat around the bush rather than answer it I'm happy to have open wards. I said so earlier. What I'm against is demonising a group without any evidence supporting the changes proposed. So your the open ward group too then Great. At least you on a side that makes sense What I don’t like are people in the middle If you think men are a threat and wards should be separated, but trans women should be allowed in women’s wards, I personally can’t agree with that because it doesn’t make sense Why not? Trans women are women. Exactly. Women only wards must include Trans women, it’s the only logical conclusion. Trans women are trans women. Their sex is not female. They should not be on a single sex ward. I don't wish trans people harm at all, but I am a woman and I want to preserve my safety, dignity and privacy and only be around other women whilst I am in hospital. And I want the same for my mother, daughter and sisters. " Sorry, but opinions based solely on bigotry don’t deserve the courtesy of considered response. | |||
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"Most people on this thread seem to be approaching this situation, quite understandably, from the point of view of a middle/older aged male or female on a swinging site. Not every citizen, male or female in the UK, will have the same outlook. We pride ourselves in this country that we are sensitive to other cultures, but in this instance, many posters above are ignoring this fact. For women from many cultures - Islam, Judaism etc The idea of being in a mixed ward where a man can potentially see them in a state of undress is horrendous to them and their cultural beliefs. To ignore this completely is nothing short of racism. We need to do better than this, and recognise that not everybody is the same in the UK, and many have deeply-ingrained cultural values. If single sex wards are possible to maintain in a hospital, they should exist, without question. Bess x I see that nobody has yet had the courage to respond to my points above. Racists are always cowards
Bess"Men and women bays are still separate, with I agree for the reasons you’ve mentioned. The issue is with people identifying as trans. Are we also relying on someone telling us they are trans? Because, if a person identifies as a woman, is post op, and legally recognised as a woman, their medical record would state woman. Therefore they’d be on a woman’s ward? They could have transitioned for 30 years and be a woman… do we check back to birth for every person admitted to hospital? Just playing devils advocate - can appreciate a debate  | |||
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"Most people on this thread seem to be approaching this situation, quite understandably, from the point of view of a middle/older aged male or female on a swinging site. Not every citizen, male or female in the UK, will have the same outlook. We pride ourselves in this country that we are sensitive to other cultures, but in this instance, many posters above are ignoring this fact. For women from many cultures - Islam, Judaism etc The idea of being in a mixed ward where a man can potentially see them in a state of undress is horrendous to them and their cultural beliefs. To ignore this completely is nothing short of racism. We need to do better than this, and recognise that not everybody is the same in the UK, and many have deeply-ingrained cultural values. If single sex wards are possible to maintain in a hospital, they should exist, without question. Bess x I see that nobody has yet had the courage to respond to my points above. Racists are always cowards
Bess"That’s because being trans is extremely hard so we have to make efforts to accompany them over everyone else, no matter how anyone else feels Remember, your views as a woman, or your religious views. They don’t matter. What matters is a trans persons views and feelings. Expressing your views or feelings is bigotry at all times. To avoid fascism we must force everyone to only agree with the views and thoughts certain people agree with. We have to avoid wrong thoughts | |||
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"Most people on this thread seem to be approaching this situation, quite understandably, from the point of view of a middle/older aged male or female on a swinging site. Not every citizen, male or female in the UK, will have the same outlook. We pride ourselves in this country that we are sensitive to other cultures, but in this instance, many posters above are ignoring this fact. For women from many cultures - Islam, Judaism etc The idea of being in a mixed ward where a man can potentially see them in a state of undress is horrendous to them and their cultural beliefs. To ignore this completely is nothing short of racism. We need to do better than this, and recognise that not everybody is the same in the UK, and many have deeply-ingrained cultural values. If single sex wards are possible to maintain in a hospital, they should exist, without question. Bess x" I agree we need to look through all pairs of eyes. But as I said above, how would we square off their beliefs if it was a trans man next to them. Or a lesbian. I fear we start with an opinion, and search for angles to justify it. | |||
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"Most people on this thread seem to be approaching this situation, quite understandably, from the point of view of a middle/older aged male or female on a swinging site. Not every citizen, male or female in the UK, will have the same outlook. We pride ourselves in this country that we are sensitive to other cultures, but in this instance, many posters above are ignoring this fact. For women from many cultures - Islam, Judaism etc The idea of being in a mixed ward where a man can potentially see them in a state of undress is horrendous to them and their cultural beliefs. To ignore this completely is nothing short of racism. We need to do better than this, and recognise that not everybody is the same in the UK, and many have deeply-ingrained cultural values. If single sex wards are possible to maintain in a hospital, they should exist, without question. Bess x I see that nobody has yet had the courage to respond to my points above. Racists are always cowards
Bess"Yes, I think those are valid points. And the needs of women from other cultures are rarely considered when these issues are discussed. But it essentially excludes them from places that ought to be single sex. Hospital wards, changing rooms, swimming sessions. | |||
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"Most people on this thread seem to be approaching this situation, quite understandably, from the point of view of a middle/older aged male or female on a swinging site. Not every citizen, male or female in the UK, will have the same outlook. We pride ourselves in this country that we are sensitive to other cultures, but in this instance, many posters above are ignoring this fact. For women from many cultures - Islam, Judaism etc The idea of being in a mixed ward where a man can potentially see them in a state of undress is horrendous to them and their cultural beliefs. To ignore this completely is nothing short of racism. We need to do better than this, and recognise that not everybody is the same in the UK, and many have deeply-ingrained cultural values. If single sex wards are possible to maintain in a hospital, they should exist, without question. Bess x I see that nobody has yet had the courage to respond to my points above. Racists are always cowards
Bess
That’s because being trans is extremely hard so we have to make efforts to accompany them over everyone else, no matter how anyone else feels
Remember, your views as a woman, or your religious views. They don’t matter. What matters is a trans persons views and feelings.
Expressing your views or feelings is bigotry at all times. To avoid fascism we must force everyone to only agree with the views and thoughts certain people agree with. We have to avoid wrong thoughts "Your views matter. Their views matter. Keeping everyone happy is impossible it seems. Accomodating all reason for views (religion, fears, evidence) is difficult. It's not quite the same, but the discussion resonates with old school views of men when they hear someone is gay. "But we showered together". Seperate sexuality showers would be shot down... how different is this and why ? | |||
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"Most people on this thread seem to be approaching this situation, quite understandably, from the point of view of a middle/older aged male or female on a swinging site. Not every citizen, male or female in the UK, will have the same outlook. We pride ourselves in this country that we are sensitive to other cultures, but in this instance, many posters above are ignoring this fact. For women from many cultures - Islam, Judaism etc The idea of being in a mixed ward where a man can potentially see them in a state of undress is horrendous to them and their cultural beliefs. To ignore this completely is nothing short of racism. We need to do better than this, and recognise that not everybody is the same in the UK, and many have deeply-ingrained cultural values. If single sex wards are possible to maintain in a hospital, they should exist, without question. Bess x I see that nobody has yet had the courage to respond to my points above. Racists are always cowards
Bess
That’s because being trans is extremely hard so we have to make efforts to accompany them over everyone else, no matter how anyone else feels
Remember, your views as a woman, or your religious views. They don’t matter. What matters is a trans persons views and feelings.
Expressing your views or feelings is bigotry at all times. To avoid fascism we must force everyone to only agree with the views and thoughts certain people agree with. We have to avoid wrong thoughts Your views matter. Their views matter.
Keeping everyone happy is impossible it seems.
Accomodating all reason for views (religion, fears, evidence) is difficult.
It's not quite the same, but the discussion resonates with old school views of men when they hear someone is gay. "But we showered together". Seperate sexuality showers would be shot down... how different is this and why ? "Because sexuality isn’t sex That’s why we have men and women’s spaces Privacy and safety probably being the biggest factors | |||
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"There’s another thread on the forums right now where women’s feelings about men being a threat are being discussed So you either need to take those feelings on and grant women the ability to not have men in the ward with them for their safety Or you need to dismiss those thoughts and tell her to put her feelings and just get over her uneasy feelings of not being safe Because unless men stop becoming a threat when they transition through some medical magic, then we gotta pick. To what extent are trans women a problem? Because those statistics exist and they don't support this argument. Additionally, women who are passionate about this subject are not all women. Classic sexism. All men are different, special, unique, and we can't tar them with the same brush. Stop persecuting men! Meanwhile activists tar all women as falling under one hateful nasty illogical camp. Pity the poor cowering women. They're so scared! They're unable to look at statistics and realise this has no factual basis. Cater to them, like small children. Fuck all of that noise. So trans women aren’t a problem but potentially men are At what point during transition do men stop becoming a problem? I don't know. I suspect more analysis needs to be done, but the statistics do not support trans women being a genuine threat - in fact they're more likely to be attacked. Perhaps people with 'female brains' (problematic construction unsupported by evidence, but let's run with it) are less likely to attack people, and those who transition are less violent all along. In the meantime, in the spirit of "stop demonising men", please stop demonising women by assuming that all or even most of us are this illogical or hysterical, because we're not. I'm not illogical or hysterical. But I don't agree that trans women should be on female wards. Are your arguments supported by evidence of increases in attacks by trans women? My point to the other poster is what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I am a woman. An F was put on my birth certificate immediately after I was born, and it hasn't been changed. I have had periods since late primary school. I've had gynaecological surgery, twice. I will not be told that all women are in favour of this punitive, illogical, hysterical front for fascism, because I am a woman, and I am not in favour of this. No ones said all women are And there’s data for and against it. I’ve got data showing that over half of transgender people in prison in the uk 2019 had a sexual offence conviction and the vast majorities of them were MtF. There’s others that show a male pattern of criminality for MtF trans So we can’t pretend that men are a threat, but they magically aren’t threat because they to become a woman So until we know exactly when they stop becoming a threat, women should be able to feel safe if they choose too by having their own wards without men or trans women No one said all men either, and yet
I don't feel safe with terfs in the same ward as me. Am I entitled to kick them out? Trans people are far more likely to be the victims of crime than the perpetrators of it.
We know that medical staff are likely to hurt people. How do we eradicate that risk?
Or is it just this culturally expedient dead cat that we have to be a 115% certain of with neurology going back 65 years?
My point is that we either have to accept men aren’t a threat and have open wards
Or accept that they are and that MtF aren’t an exception to that and give women the safety they need
I’m neither for or against either side, I’m a guy, I’m safe everywhere
Trans women are women "Really? | |||
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"Most people on this thread seem to be approaching this situation, quite understandably, from the point of view of a middle/older aged male or female on a swinging site. Not every citizen, male or female in the UK, will have the same outlook. We pride ourselves in this country that we are sensitive to other cultures, but in this instance, many posters above are ignoring this fact. For women from many cultures - Islam, Judaism etc The idea of being in a mixed ward where a man can potentially see them in a state of undress is horrendous to them and their cultural beliefs. To ignore this completely is nothing short of racism. We need to do better than this, and recognise that not everybody is the same in the UK, and many have deeply-ingrained cultural values. If single sex wards are possible to maintain in a hospital, they should exist, without question. Bess x I see that nobody has yet had the courage to respond to my points above. Racists are always cowards
Bess
Yes, I think those are valid points. And the needs of women from other cultures are rarely considered when these issues are discussed. But it essentially excludes them from places that ought to be single sex. Hospital wards, changing rooms, swimming sessions. "I think that places do try to offer segregation by sex. Local pools have some ladies only sessions. At these times, it would only be women in any mixed changing area (some pools are separate, some not). In hospital, my Dad was recently on an elderly care ward. A huge ward with multiple bays. Only men were on his 6 bed bay and other bays appeared segregated by gender. The few single rooms were for end of life (families with them) or people needing infection control segregation. However in A&E, he sat in a mixed bay for over 30hrs, but it's understandable that it's simply impossible to properly segregate in such a place. I've been in hospital lots of times and excluding my recent-ish stay on a gynaecology ward, I've never been in a mixed inpatient bay, other than when I've been the parent with my child on a (mixed) kid's ward. All bays have been segregated by gender, though whole wards are never separate. I've seen people of different religious and societal groups ask for certain people to offer care or do examinations and I've seen this both accommodated and not. Where not, valid reasons were given and it was up to the individual to decide what they wanted to do next (wait longer for care or receive immediate care from some of the gender they didn't want to be cared for by). | |||
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" Yes, I think those are valid points. And the needs of women from other cultures are rarely considered when these issues are discussed. But it essentially excludes them from places that ought to be single sex. Hospital wards, changing rooms, swimming sessions. I think that places do try to offer segregation by sex. Local pools have some ladies only sessions. At these times, it would only be women in any mixed changing area (some pools are separate, some not). In hospital, my Dad was recently on an elderly care ward. A huge ward with multiple bays. Only men were on his 6 bed bay and other bays appeared segregated by gender. The few single rooms were for end of life (families with them) or people needing infection control segregation. However in A&E, he sat in a mixed bay for over 30hrs, but it's understandable that it's simply impossible to properly segregate in such a place. I've been in hospital lots of times and excluding my recent-ish stay on a gynaecology ward, I've never been in a mixed inpatient bay, other than when I've been the parent with my child on a (mixed) kid's ward. All bays have been segregated by gender, though whole wards are never separate. I've seen people of different religious and societal groups ask for certain people to offer care or do examinations and I've seen this both accommodated and not. Where not, valid reasons were given and it was up to the individual to decide what they wanted to do next (wait longer for care or receive immediate care from some of the gender they didn't want to be cared for by)." This is good to hear, as I've read a number of examples where women were excluded (not hospitals though). | |||
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