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"I used to love driving. I now hate it in the uk. " I miss being able to bundle everyone in the car for a day out or holiday, but I don't miss the stress of traffic jams or finding somewhere to park. | |||
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"I used to love driving. I now hate it in the uk. " Why? | |||
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"I used to love driving. I now hate it in the uk. Why?" Heavy Traffic / poor quality roads - terrible quality of other drivers increasing / speed cameras all over / limits all over in places. I used to love driving now it’s just a means to get around … i drive mostly as despise public transport | |||
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"I used to love driving. I now hate it in the uk. Why? Heavy Traffic / poor quality roads - terrible quality of other drivers increasing / speed cameras all over / limits all over in places. I used to love driving now it’s just a means to get around … i drive mostly as despise public transport " I get the road quality, and of course we all think we’re good drivers and other people aren’t, but speed cameras? Surely if you’re sticking to the speed limit they don’t matter? | |||
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"I used to love driving. I now hate it in the uk. " I totally agree | |||
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"The Mayor of London has also made most roads 20mph, if this is a template of a Labour Government would bring in for the whole country then quite frankly I won't be voting for them" The average travel speed in London is around 12mph anyway so it makes really no difference! I appreciate it's a minor inconvenience but on some of London's small or residential roads, 30mph feels pretty quick anyway, don't you think? | |||
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"I used to love driving. I now hate it in the uk. Why? Heavy Traffic / poor quality roads - terrible quality of other drivers increasing / speed cameras all over / limits all over in places. I used to love driving now it’s just a means to get around … i drive mostly as despise public transport " Oh, lots of this. Our Highway Code was written years and years ago. For older cars .. Narrator - Woody stands in a soapbox. And we just haven’t adapted it for the amount of cars moving. I don’t have an answer, but I find driving abroad, a lot easier and more enjoyable. Maybe it’s because I’m on holiday, maybe not. But there’s a more relaxed driving feeling about it. Like I am driving. The feeling of freedom again. | |||
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"There is absolutely no evidence it will save lives.To say it will save lives implies the roads are dangerous.When you look at the stats they are not,the accidents are mostly happening outside the twenty zone and because of factors like bad driving,drug/d*unk/mobile driving,adverse weather etc.A twenty zone won't make an idiot put down the phone or drive safely." People are five times more likely to die if hit by a car going 30mph than if hit by a car going 20mph. | |||
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"The Mayor of London has also made most roads 20mph, if this is a template of a Labour Government would bring in for the whole country then quite frankly I won't be voting for them The average travel speed in London is around 12mph anyway so it makes really no difference! I appreciate it's a minor inconvenience but on some of London's small or residential roads, 30mph feels pretty quick anyway, don't you think?" I'm not saying we shouldnt have 20mph roads, definitely should have them around schools, hosptials, care homes etc but making most roads 20mph not mostly is it ridiculous but also causes more traffic equaling more pollution and people wont beliebe but driving slowly causes just as much accidents as driving fast | |||
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"It's ridiculous. We were on the motorbikes in Wales on Sunday, and were being overtaken by cyclists (incidentally, does this apply to them as well?). To think that we could be passed by Usain Bolt is mad!!!" Speed limits apply to all road users, including cyclists. | |||
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"It's ridiculous. We were on the motorbikes in Wales on Sunday, and were being overtaken by cyclists (incidentally, does this apply to them as well?). To think that we could be passed by Usain Bolt is mad!!! Speed limits apply to all road users, including cyclists." Speed limits apply to motor vehicles. They don't apply to bicycles | |||
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"The Mayor of London has also made most roads 20mph, if this is a template of a Labour Government would bring in for the whole country then quite frankly I won't be voting for them The average travel speed in London is around 12mph anyway so it makes really no difference! I appreciate it's a minor inconvenience but on some of London's small or residential roads, 30mph feels pretty quick anyway, don't you think? I'm not saying we shouldnt have 20mph roads, definitely should have them around schools, hosptials, care homes etc but making most roads 20mph not mostly is it ridiculous but also causes more traffic equaling more pollution and people wont beliebe but driving slowly causes just as much accidents as driving fast" Yeah, sure. My point was 30 v 20 seems irrelevant in London when you're travelling at an average speed of 12mph anyway - the chance of hitting 30mph safely on most of London's streets is pretty slim! But this thread is about Wales, where I know much less about the roads! | |||
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"At present this is not effecting me as I'm in England, but I think this is a wrong decision 20 is just too slow. As I never travel to Wales I shouldn't sign a petition. As soon as they try this for England I would " Many roads in built up areas are 20 mph some in Wellingborough now and London has loads | |||
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"It's ridiculous. We were on the motorbikes in Wales on Sunday, and were being overtaken by cyclists (incidentally, does this apply to them as well?). To think that we could be passed by Usain Bolt is mad!!! Speed limits apply to all road users, including cyclists." They don't Only mechanically propelled vehicles | |||
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"It's ridiculous. We were on the motorbikes in Wales on Sunday, and were being overtaken by cyclists (incidentally, does this apply to them as well?). To think that we could be passed by Usain Bolt is mad!!! Speed limits apply to all road users, including cyclists. Speed limits apply to motor vehicles. They don't apply to bicycles " Apologies, I misread the article I got that from. | |||
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"The Mayor of London has also made most roads 20mph, if this is a template of a Labour Government would bring in for the whole country then quite frankly I won't be voting for them The average travel speed in London is around 12mph anyway so it makes really no difference! I appreciate it's a minor inconvenience but on some of London's small or residential roads, 30mph feels pretty quick anyway, don't you think? I'm not saying we shouldnt have 20mph roads, definitely should have them around schools, hosptials, care homes etc but making most roads 20mph not mostly is it ridiculous but also causes more traffic equaling more pollution and people wont beliebe but driving slowly causes just as much accidents as driving fast" Queen’s University Belfast’s studies show that the main benefit of reduced speed limits is less traffic. | |||
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"It's ridiculous. We were on the motorbikes in Wales on Sunday, and were being overtaken by cyclists (incidentally, does this apply to them as well?). To think that we could be passed by Usain Bolt is mad!!! Speed limits apply to all road users, including cyclists." No it doesnt | |||
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"It’s a very strange person who thinks their right to arrive on average 1 minute earlier at their destination, is more important than saving lives." The biggest problem with that sentence is that people believe they have a right to drive. They don't. It is a priviledge you earn and continue to enjoy provided you abide by the laws of the road | |||
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"It’s a very strange person who thinks their right to arrive on average 1 minute earlier at their destination, is more important than saving lives. The biggest problem with that sentence is that people believe they have a right to drive. They don't. It is a priviledge you earn and continue to enjoy provided you abide by the laws of the road" Exactly this, and the amount of people who complain about speed cameras is indicative of this. Speed cameras are irrelevant if you are obeying the law. If you choose to break the law then be adult enough to accept the consequences. | |||
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"Maybe wait until you’ve discovered just how little it actually impacts your journey times? Is an extra few minutes to a journey REALLY that much of an issue compared to LIVES that could be saved? " It's not just about the apleged lives but rather 30 MPH is better for fuel economy than 20. C | |||
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"There is an active petition to rescind the deeply unpopular blanket 20 mph law in Wales available at the Senedd website. Just for information. Feel free to sign. Currently over 130,000 signatures. " Very many signatures are by people who aren’t living in Wales. If you live here and you are against it, fair enough (I’m pretty ok with the policy, but accept it’s fine to have other views). Otherwise (if you visit every year on holiday, work here sometimes etc), I’m afraid that person should abide by the laws of the country whether they think it’s a good idea or not. They wouldn’t sign a petition if there was a traffic law in France they didn’t agree with. Perish the thought if French people signed a petition about a UK traffic law. Ultimately many people (including many Welsh people) hate little old Wales doing things differently. Like it or not, it’s a policy brought in by a democratically elected government. | |||
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"Maybe wait until you’ve discovered just how little it actually impacts your journey times? Is an extra few minutes to a journey REALLY that much of an issue compared to LIVES that could be saved? It's not just about the apleged lives but rather 30 MPH is better for fuel economy than 20. C" Better fuel consumption isn't really an argument that trumps saving lives, tbh. | |||
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"It's ridiculous. We were on the motorbikes in Wales on Sunday, and were being overtaken by cyclists (incidentally, does this apply to them as well?). To think that we could be passed by Usain Bolt is mad!!! Speed limits apply to all road users, including cyclists. They don't Only mechanically propelled vehicles" Because they have number plates and are easier to fine £££!!!! | |||
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"I used to love driving. I now hate it in the uk. Why? Heavy Traffic / poor quality roads - terrible quality of other drivers increasing / speed cameras all over / limits all over in places. I used to love driving now it’s just a means to get around … i drive mostly as despise public transport I get the road quality, and of course we all think we’re good drivers and other people aren’t, but speed cameras? Surely if you’re sticking to the speed limit they don’t matter?" there shouldn't be speed cameras if they allow them to build a car that car go 190 then they should be aloud to maybe restrict inner cities to 50 that's about it. | |||
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"I used to love driving. I now hate it in the uk. Why? Heavy Traffic / poor quality roads - terrible quality of other drivers increasing / speed cameras all over / limits all over in places. I used to love driving now it’s just a means to get around … i drive mostly as despise public transport I get the road quality, and of course we all think we’re good drivers and other people aren’t, but speed cameras? Surely if you’re sticking to the speed limit they don’t matter? there shouldn't be speed cameras if they allow them to build a car that car go 190 then they should be aloud to maybe restrict inner cities to 50 that's about it." Speed limits were around before cars that can go 190mph. If people are daft enough to spend the money on a car that fast then they obviously have enough money to pay speeding fines. | |||
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"I used to love driving. I now hate it in the uk. " Bang on the wooden head there woody. Unless you have an electric car... Then it's ok | |||
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"I used to love driving. I now hate it in the uk. Why? Heavy Traffic / poor quality roads - terrible quality of other drivers increasing / speed cameras all over / limits all over in places. I used to love driving now it’s just a means to get around … i drive mostly as despise public transport I get the road quality, and of course we all think we’re good drivers and other people aren’t, but speed cameras? Surely if you’re sticking to the speed limit they don’t matter?" Have you tried driving oh let's say a motorway at night... Coned off.. Smart motorway... Variable speed limits... Up and down.. Up and down... For no reason... Other than revenue capture... Or badly signed limits, bus lanes, taxi lanes, bike lanes, signs covered up by trees or lichen, road surface markings eroded so badly as to be invisible but still supposed to obey them. It's way to trite to say stick to the limit... Most of the time it's impossible to decipher what the limit is. | |||
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"I hate it. It is incredibly tricky to keep at 20mph without having to actively try. I got overtaken yesterday by two dickheads because I was doing 20 and one of them overtook me on a blind corner. By me we have roads that go from 20 then to 30 to 40 then 50 to 40 to 20 all within a couple of metres of each other. And some roads are signposted and yet they’ve not bothered with others so folk are seemingly just guessing. It’s nothing to do with travel time (takes me an hour to get to work regardless) it just seems to be chaos. And given the Welsh Assembly probably spent shitloads of money on this, they could have done a better job of it." Cost £32 million apparently | |||
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"Personally I don’t think lowering a limit people seem seem to ignore is a great idea. Changing the surfaces in 30 areas, 20 areas and around higher risk junctions etc would be my choice. If it’s a noisy surface that makes the car vibrate over the speed limit most will choose to drive within the limit. " Good point.  | |||
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"There is no common sense applied to the speed limits, on single track country roads some speed limits are 60 but would be dangerous to drive at that speed and also on some duel carriage ways in non built up areas speed limits are sometimes 30 or 40 again that dosent make sense " Some have 60mph limit and fucking great craters in them | |||
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"Be interesting to know how many people have been killed or injured in Wales by people driving at 30, and how many that will be reduced by. " You only need to see some of the information regarding hitting a pedestrian at 20 compared to 30 the difference is huge. I've not read the whole thread since my last post. But I'll say it again. If the 20 mph speed limit saves just one life it's worth while. There's not a single argument or reason anyone can put in front of me to change my mind that it's anything other than a good idea. | |||
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"Be interesting to know how many people have been killed or injured in Wales by people driving at 30, and how many that will be reduced by. You only need to see some of the information regarding hitting a pedestrian at 20 compared to 30 the difference is huge. I've not read the whole thread since my last post. But I'll say it again. If the 20 mph speed limit saves just one life it's worth while. There's not a single argument or reason anyone can put in front of me to change my mind that it's anything other than a good idea. " I agree. 20mph in built up areas isn't uncommon and is logical from a road safety point of view. Sadly, as is evident from every post about cyclists, there's always a certain number of people who only care about their ability to get from A to B as quickly as possible. Nota | |||
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"I used to love driving. I now hate it in the uk. " Me too Woody the driving experience has gone whats the point of owning a sports car, motorists basically support this country in fines, you may as well travel by bus  | |||
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"I used to love driving. I now hate it in the uk. Me too Woody the driving experience has gone whats the point of owning a sports car, motorists basically support this country in fines, you may as well travel by bus "I do genuinely believe that there's a secret conspiracy to slow the flow of traffic. How many times do you see months of roadworks on a road and users enduring traffic chaos only to be replaced by another as soon as that one is done. | |||
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"I'm not in Wales but I travel through some twenty limits daily including the road that I live on, the problem I have with them is people that don't obey the limit. The amount of people that overtake me or follow 3ft behind me gesticulating,really get my goat as I'm only obeying the highway code " I always slow down when a person drives up my arse. For safety reasons  | |||
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"Be interesting to know how many people have been killed or injured in Wales by people driving at 30, and how many that will be reduced by. You only need to see some of the information regarding hitting a pedestrian at 20 compared to 30 the difference is huge. I've not read the whole thread since my last post. But I'll say it again. If the 20 mph speed limit saves just one life it's worth while. There's not a single argument or reason anyone can put in front of me to change my mind that it's anything other than a good idea. " My question still stands. If they have no crashes at 30 mph it's irrelevant. As for the physics of it yeah i did physics o level too. | |||
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"They've had 20mph limits on roads in Edinburgh for a few years now and virtually no one sticks to them... BUT they do now drive at 30mph - which is probably the real intention of lowering the speed limit to 20
"I think there is a lot of truth in this, it all makes people more mindful of their driving. We have some big crash zones in Cardiff (knocks every day on some roundabouts - I saw someone drive into the back of a police car once!) but it's only the deaths that people hear about. I think they want to reduce road accidents ultimately. Politicians certainly get pressure from people who have been in bad ones. Typically though, we don't really get those starts (the bad ones, or near-deaths in some cases). Someone who worked admin for the fire brigade once told me about the then-past Christmas (this was years ago when the centre of town could be mayhem) and how some unusually-high death stats over just a couple of days were completely hidden so not to fuck up the Christmas shopping. They must have managed it somehow. pt | |||
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"They've had 20mph limits on roads in Edinburgh for a few years now and virtually no one sticks to them... BUT they do now drive at 30mph - which is probably the real intention of lowering the speed limit to 20
I think there is a lot of truth in this, it all makes people more mindful of their driving.
We have some big crash zones in Cardiff (knocks every day on some roundabouts - I saw someone drive into the back of a police car once!) but it's only the deaths that people hear about.
I think they want to reduce road accidents ultimately. Politicians certainly get pressure from people who have been in bad ones. Typically though, we don't really get those starts (the bad ones, or near-deaths in some cases). Someone who worked admin for the fire brigade once told me about the then-past Christmas (this was years ago when the centre of town could be mayhem) and how some unusually-high death stats over just a couple of days were completely hidden so not to fuck up the Christmas shopping. They must have managed it somehow.
pt"I'm sure some truth in that. I wonder how many collisions could be avoided by having decent road surfaces, kerbs that don't have bamboo growing out of them, signage that can be seen, roads that are marked properly, proper enforced parking and so on. Sure driving at a crawl will prevent some accidents no doubt but horse and carts will be next. | |||
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"They've had 20mph limits on roads in Edinburgh for a few years now and virtually no one sticks to them... BUT they do now drive at 30mph - which is probably the real intention of lowering the speed limit to 20
I think there is a lot of truth in this, it all makes people more mindful of their driving.
We have some big crash zones in Cardiff (knocks every day on some roundabouts - I saw someone drive into the back of a police car once!) but it's only the deaths that people hear about.
I think they want to reduce road accidents ultimately. Politicians certainly get pressure from people who have been in bad ones. Typically though, we don't really get those starts (the bad ones, or near-deaths in some cases). Someone who worked admin for the fire brigade once told me about the then-past Christmas (this was years ago when the centre of town could be mayhem) and how some unusually-high death stats over just a couple of days were completely hidden so not to fuck up the Christmas shopping. They must have managed it somehow.
pt
I'm sure some truth in that. I wonder how many collisions could be avoided by having decent road surfaces, kerbs that don't have bamboo growing out of them, signage that can be seen, roads that are marked properly, proper enforced parking and so on. Sure driving at a crawl will prevent some accidents no doubt but horse and carts will be next.
". He is *slowly* doing the roads in fairness. It's all very eco, with lots of planting features that take in rain water. Look at Tudor Road in Cardiff and side streets in Grangetown if you know the city. He'll see it as a long project and I'm afraid whoever takes over from him is only going to carry it on. They'd rather people didn't drive so much I think. Personally I find some of their cycling decisions and solutions much worse, some places there really is no excuse for how awkward it is. Of course the speed restrictions will be protecting them too. The bus service just isn't good enough too. They need to sort those two things out if they really want people to stop using their cars so much. pt | |||
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"My little bit of insight to this topic 20mph where there maybe pedestrians is more than fast enough imho Evan though cars have evolved into safer more human friendly (incase you get run over!) moving objects no one here would want to be hit by 1 at 5mph never mind 30mph Speed limits are imposed for a reason usually to save lives Just for the record I love the Welsh scenery people should slow down and take it in and relax rather than racing through and missing it all Apologies but I won’t be signing a petition " You are under the impressions speed limits are to save lives? I am of the opinion speed limits are deliberately confusing and nonsensical to raise revenue. I do however agree in some residential areas... Near schools and shops etc... 20 mph or even 15 is appropriate. | |||
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"There is absolutely no evidence it will save lives. " . I have to say this simply isn't true. According to Drakeford, statistics predict that there will be 40% fewer collisions in Wales and we will save up to 10 lives and prevent up to 2,000 injuries a year. Road stats can be pretty accurate, and they've know for donkey's years that a car at 30 can kill when at 20 it doesn't. Simple collisions happen *all the time* in Cardiff just in general traffic. Nothing to do with drink etc. pt | |||
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"My little bit of insight to this topic 20mph where there maybe pedestrians is more than fast enough imho Evan though cars have evolved into safer more human friendly (incase you get run over!) moving objects no one here would want to be hit by 1 at 5mph never mind 30mph Speed limits are imposed for a reason usually to save lives Just for the record I love the Welsh scenery people should slow down and take it in and relax rather than racing through and missing it all Apologies but I won’t be signing a petition You are under the impressions speed limits are to save lives? I am of the opinion speed limits are deliberately confusing and nonsensical to raise revenue. I do however agree in some residential areas... Near schools and shops etc... 20 mph or even 15 is appropriate. " . A lot of people rather cynically think the speed limits are there to raise money. I think if some of our councils did it, I'd be inclined to agree! But though I'm not fan of the Welsh Parliament in actual principal, there is no way it's doing this specifically to raise cash imo (though no doubt it will to some degree, which will offset its costs). In reality I think it's part eco, part life-saving, part long-term road strategy. It's also buddying up to European partners and legacy making too. It's not specifically designed to raise money though. pt | |||
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"If the people of Wales want the £9 billion hit the economy is going to take,crack on. " Again not strictly fact. The Tories have claimed WG docs suggest an initial cost of between £2.7 billion and £8.9 billion to the economy will occur, how this is worked out isn't clear yet. Even £2.7 b is huge so I'd like to know.... pt | |||
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"It's mad ,next they will ban smoking in public places" I hope so. And vaping. | |||
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"I've always found people want 20mph speed limits outside their house or schools that their kids go to but not on the roads that they drive on??" Likely true. Although I'm always amazed at how many people drive like dickheads right where they live. | |||
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"I wonder sometimes if what you think the reason for speed limits is reflects what is important to you as a person?" You read my mind…I’d just been thinking that 20mph is a great idea as I will get more time to enjoy ogling a lovely pair of arse cheeks in some tight gym leggings, as I drive to work, whilst also doing it in a safer and more responsible manner | |||
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"I wonder sometimes if what you think the reason for speed limits is reflects what is important to you as a person?" If it pertains to the importance of speed limits then yes probably it does. For the remaining 99 per cent of one's values. I'm not sure there's a link... But good bit of research for someone. | |||
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"My little bit of insight to this topic 20mph where there maybe pedestrians is more than fast enough imho Evan though cars have evolved into safer more human friendly (incase you get run over!) moving objects no one here would want to be hit by 1 at 5mph never mind 30mph Speed limits are imposed for a reason usually to save lives Just for the record I love the Welsh scenery people should slow down and take it in and relax rather than racing through and missing it all Apologies but I won’t be signing a petition You are under the impressions speed limits are to save lives? I am of the opinion speed limits are deliberately confusing and nonsensical to raise revenue. I do however agree in some residential areas... Near schools and shops etc... 20 mph or even 15 is appropriate. . A lot of people rather cynically think the speed limits are there to raise money. I think if some of our councils did it, I'd be inclined to agree! But though I'm not fan of the Welsh Parliament in actual principal, there is no way it's doing this specifically to raise cash imo (though no doubt it will to some degree, which will offset its costs). In reality I think it's part eco, part life-saving, part long-term road strategy. It's also buddying up to European partners and legacy making too. It's not specifically designed to raise money though. pt" I'm really not convinced about the eco advantage of doing 20mph rather than 30 mph, in my car to do 20mph I'm in second gear with the engine running at around 17500 rpm,if I try 3rd gear the car exceeds 20mph on tick over but travelling at 30mph in 3rd gear the engine is running at around 14000 rpm. To me it's obvious I'm using more fuel, causing more pollutants at 20mph than 30mph. That said in in favour of 20 limits for the safety factor. | |||
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"I wonder sometimes if what you think the reason for speed limits is reflects what is important to you as a person? If it pertains to the importance of speed limits then yes probably it does. For the remaining 99 per cent of one's values. I'm not sure there's a link... But good bit of research for someone. " I’m not so sure that’s the case, I don’t think our values are so easily separated between subjects. The example here, being that some people think speed limits are about raising revenue, being case in point. In reality we all speed on a regular basis, intentionally or not, but how often are we caught and have to pay a fine? I have probably broken the speed limit tens of thousands of times but I have been caught doing so twice. As far as raising revenue goes, reducing speed limits is a terrible way of doing it, yet people think that’s why it’s done, I think that says a lot about what is important to them. | |||
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"I wonder sometimes if what you think the reason for speed limits is reflects what is important to you as a person? If it pertains to the importance of speed limits then yes probably it does. For the remaining 99 per cent of one's values. I'm not sure there's a link... But good bit of research for someone. I’m not so sure that’s the case, I don’t think our values are so easily separated between subjects. The example here, being that some people think speed limits are about raising revenue, being case in point. In reality we all speed on a regular basis, intentionally or not, but how often are we caught and have to pay a fine? I have probably broken the speed limit tens of thousands of times but I have been caught doing so twice. As far as raising revenue goes, reducing speed limits is a terrible way of doing it, yet people think that’s why it’s done, I think that says a lot about what is important to them." OK let's explore a bit more. If speed limits are to manage speed and safety. Why then to police hide behind bushes and hoardings to catch people speeding? If they were visible with blue lights everyone would slow down.. Therefore being safe  . If they hide people can't see them and keep their speed. One is safe. One is not safe but raises revenue? | |||
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It was frustrating at first but more economic and safer if im honest. Leave a couple minutes earlier or relocate is my advice  | |||
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"My little bit of insight to this topic 20mph where there maybe pedestrians is more than fast enough imho Evan though cars have evolved into safer more human friendly (incase you get run over!) moving objects no one here would want to be hit by 1 at 5mph never mind 30mph Speed limits are imposed for a reason usually to save lives Just for the record I love the Welsh scenery people should slow down and take it in and relax rather than racing through and missing it all Apologies but I won’t be signing a petition You are under the impressions speed limits are to save lives? I am of the opinion speed limits are deliberately confusing and nonsensical to raise revenue. I do however agree in some residential areas... Near schools and shops etc... 20 mph or even 15 is appropriate. . A lot of people rather cynically think the speed limits are there to raise money. I think if some of our councils did it, I'd be inclined to agree! But though I'm not fan of the Welsh Parliament in actual principal, there is no way it's doing this specifically to raise cash imo (though no doubt it will to some degree, which will offset its costs). In reality I think it's part eco, part life-saving, part long-term road strategy. It's also buddying up to European partners and legacy making too. It's not specifically designed to raise money though. pt I'm really not convinced about the eco advantage of doing 20mph rather than 30 mph, in my car to do 20mph I'm in second gear with the engine running at around 17500 rpm,if I try 3rd gear the car exceeds 20mph on tick over but travelling at 30mph in 3rd gear the engine is running at around 14000 rpm. To me it's obvious I'm using more fuel, causing more pollutants at 20mph than 30mph. That said in in favour of 20 limits for the safety factor. " 17500rpm?!? What have you got under the bonnet, a Dremel? | |||
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"My little bit of insight to this topic 20mph where there maybe pedestrians is more than fast enough imho Evan though cars have evolved into safer more human friendly (incase you get run over!) moving objects no one here would want to be hit by 1 at 5mph never mind 30mph Speed limits are imposed for a reason usually to save lives Just for the record I love the Welsh scenery people should slow down and take it in and relax rather than racing through and missing it all Apologies but I won’t be signing a petition You are under the impressions speed limits are to save lives? I am of the opinion speed limits are deliberately confusing and nonsensical to raise revenue. I do however agree in some residential areas... Near schools and shops etc... 20 mph or even 15 is appropriate. . A lot of people rather cynically think the speed limits are there to raise money. I think if some of our councils did it, I'd be inclined to agree! But though I'm not fan of the Welsh Parliament in actual principal, there is no way it's doing this specifically to raise cash imo (though no doubt it will to some degree, which will offset its costs). In reality I think it's part eco, part life-saving, part long-term road strategy. It's also buddying up to European partners and legacy making too. It's not specifically designed to raise money though. pt I'm really not convinced about the eco advantage of doing 20mph rather than 30 mph, in my car to do 20mph I'm in second gear with the engine running at around 17500 rpm,if I try 3rd gear the car exceeds 20mph on tick over but travelling at 30mph in 3rd gear the engine is running at around 14000 rpm. To me it's obvious I'm using more fuel, causing more pollutants at 20mph than 30mph. That said in in favour of 20 limits for the safety factor. 17500rpm?!? What have you got under the bonnet, a Dremel?" Apologies that should be 1750rpm, and 1400rpm ,I got carried away with the noughts  | |||
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"I wonder sometimes if what you think the reason for speed limits is reflects what is important to you as a person? If it pertains to the importance of speed limits then yes probably it does. For the remaining 99 per cent of one's values. I'm not sure there's a link... But good bit of research for someone. I’m not so sure that’s the case, I don’t think our values are so easily separated between subjects. The example here, being that some people think speed limits are about raising revenue, being case in point. In reality we all speed on a regular basis, intentionally or not, but how often are we caught and have to pay a fine? I have probably broken the speed limit tens of thousands of times but I have been caught doing so twice. As far as raising revenue goes, reducing speed limits is a terrible way of doing it, yet people think that’s why it’s done, I think that says a lot about what is important to them. OK let's explore a bit more. If speed limits are to manage speed and safety. Why then to police hide behind bushes and hoardings to catch people speeding? If they were visible with blue lights everyone would slow down.. Therefore being safe . If they hide people can't see them and keep their speed. One is safe. One is not safe but raises revenue? "I have never experienced Police officers hiding behind bushes or hoardings, the only times I have been caught speeding have been by a big yellow speed camera van that I failed to notice until it was too late, and a speed camera I knew was there but hadn't noticed I had drifted over the speed limit. To be honest I have never seen a police officer hiding with a speed camera either. Even so, I can absolutely can see why they would hide, it's pointless allowing the sort of drivers who think it's ok for them to speed the time to slow down so they can avoid a fine and points, far better that the people who need to be reminded that the law applies to them don't have advanced warning that they could be caught. | |||
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"My little bit of insight to this topic 20mph where there maybe pedestrians is more than fast enough imho Evan though cars have evolved into safer more human friendly (incase you get run over!) moving objects no one here would want to be hit by 1 at 5mph never mind 30mph Speed limits are imposed for a reason usually to save lives Just for the record I love the Welsh scenery people should slow down and take it in and relax rather than racing through and missing it all Apologies but I won’t be signing a petition You are under the impressions speed limits are to save lives? I am of the opinion speed limits are deliberately confusing and nonsensical to raise revenue. I do however agree in some residential areas... Near schools and shops etc... 20 mph or even 15 is appropriate. . A lot of people rather cynically think the speed limits are there to raise money. I think if some of our councils did it, I'd be inclined to agree! But though I'm not fan of the Welsh Parliament in actual principal, there is no way it's doing this specifically to raise cash imo (though no doubt it will to some degree, which will offset its costs). In reality I think it's part eco, part life-saving, part long-term road strategy. It's also buddying up to European partners and legacy making too. It's not specifically designed to raise money though. pt I'm really not convinced about the eco advantage of doing 20mph rather than 30 mph, in my car to do 20mph I'm in second gear with the engine running at around 17500 rpm,if I try 3rd gear the car exceeds 20mph on tick over but travelling at 30mph in 3rd gear the engine is running at around 14000 rpm. To me it's obvious I'm using more fuel, causing more pollutants at 20mph than 30mph. That said in in favour of 20 limits for the safety factor. " . Yeah I think the eco argument was perhaps more the round of changes a few years back. This will probably suite the smaller town runners rather than the faster gas guzzlers perhaps. I don't know all that much about cars themselves tbh (I don't actually need one so don't run one), but they often used to say that cars that are smoother running faster don't always run so well at the lower speeds. Technology advances all the time though of course, and cars don't last forever. pt | |||
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"I wonder sometimes if what you think the reason for speed limits is reflects what is important to you as a person? If it pertains to the importance of speed limits then yes probably it does. For the remaining 99 per cent of one's values. I'm not sure there's a link... But good bit of research for someone. I’m not so sure that’s the case, I don’t think our values are so easily separated between subjects. The example here, being that some people think speed limits are about raising revenue, being case in point. In reality we all speed on a regular basis, intentionally or not, but how often are we caught and have to pay a fine? I have probably broken the speed limit tens of thousands of times but I have been caught doing so twice. As far as raising revenue goes, reducing speed limits is a terrible way of doing it, yet people think that’s why it’s done, I think that says a lot about what is important to them. OK let's explore a bit more. If speed limits are to manage speed and safety. Why then to police hide behind bushes and hoardings to catch people speeding? If they were visible with blue lights everyone would slow down.. Therefore being safe . If they hide people can't see them and keep their speed. One is safe. One is not safe but raises revenue?
I have never experienced Police officers hiding behind bushes or hoardings, the only times I have been caught speeding have been by a big yellow speed camera van that I failed to notice until it was too late, and a speed camera I knew was there but hadn't noticed I had drifted over the speed limit. To be honest I have never seen a police officer hiding with a speed camera either.
Even so, I can absolutely can see why they would hide, it's pointless allowing the sort of drivers who think it's ok for them to speed the time to slow down so they can avoid a fine and points, far better that the people who need to be reminded that the law applies to them don't have advanced warning that they could be caught."Not driven much in mid or north wales at weekends then is a pretty safe guess? | |||
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"Dead clever it is. All the bus timetables are having to be changed to adjust to slower running. Each journey will take longer, hitting the people who rely on them the most (often those on lowest incomes) by affecting their journeys to work & doctors etc etc needing more time or making them late. I'm staggered at a Labour politician bringing in such a policy. Wonder what Drakeford's salary is compared to minimum wage? Complete out of touch idiot, no different to Tories. " It will make the average journey take 1 minute longer, on average. | |||
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"Dead clever it is. All the bus timetables are having to be changed to adjust to slower running. Each journey will take longer, hitting the people who rely on them the most (often those on lowest incomes) by affecting their journeys to work & doctors etc etc needing more time or making them late. I'm staggered at a Labour politician bringing in such a policy. Wonder what Drakeford's salary is compared to minimum wage? Complete out of touch idiot, no different to Tories. " Do you think the buses will leave earlier or will they arrive later? | |||
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"Dead clever it is. All the bus timetables are having to be changed to adjust to slower running. Each journey will take longer, hitting the people who rely on them the most (often those on lowest incomes) by affecting their journeys to work & doctors etc etc needing more time or making them late. I'm staggered at a Labour politician bringing in such a policy. Wonder what Drakeford's salary is compared to minimum wage? Complete out of touch idiot, no different to Tories. It will make the average journey take 1 minute longer, on average." That's interesting. If its only adding a minute make the lazy fuckers walk. As that makes the average journey just over a mile. | |||
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" That's interesting. If its only adding a minute make the lazy fuckers walk. As that makes the average journey just over a mile. " Think they're saying that's exactly what they want - more people to walk/cycle (and to be able to do so more safely). The reaction to this shows why politicians won't willingly invest in shifting people away from their cars. Anything getting in the way of voters driving as quickly as they can to the shop a mile down the road is political suicide. | |||
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"It’s a very strange person who thinks their right to arrive on average 1 minute earlier at their destination, is more important than saving lives." That maths suggests that the average journey distance is 1 mile. | |||
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" That's interesting. If its only adding a minute make the lazy fuckers walk. As that makes the average journey just over a mile. Think they're saying that's exactly what they want - more people to walk/cycle (and to be able to do so more safely). The reaction to this shows why politicians won't willingly invest in shifting people away from their cars. Anything getting in the way of voters driving as quickly as they can to the shop a mile down the road is political suicide." If that's genuinely the agenda... Be brave... For a start off.. Let's have footpaths that are fit for their name... That are flat, free of holes, dog shit, bikes and over growth, let's sweep them and in winter let's light them and grit them. Around me you take your life in your hands trying to walk anywhere... Admittedly... A long way from Wales! Think of all the benefits of walking a bit more? Or horsing. Back to the future. | |||
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"It’s a very strange person who thinks their right to arrive on average 1 minute earlier at their destination, is more important than saving lives. That maths suggests that the average journey distance is 1 mile. " What's your maths? A journalist compared a fairly lengthy 30mph drive with a 20mph one in North Wales. Their 14 minute journey took 3 minutes longer at the slower speed. That's in a fairly traffic free area though. In stop/start traffic there's likely hardly any difference at all for most. | |||
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"It’s a very strange person who thinks their right to arrive on average 1 minute earlier at their destination, is more important than saving lives. That maths suggests that the average journey distance is 1 mile. What's your maths? A journalist compared a fairly lengthy 30mph drive with a 20mph one in North Wales. Their 14 minute journey took 3 minutes longer at the slower speed. That's in a fairly traffic free area though. In stop/start traffic there's likely hardly any difference at all for most." 3 minute and 1 minute are different numbers. A 1 minute difference, when changing from 30 to 20 suggests a journey difference of 1 mile. 1 mile at 30 takes 2 minutes. 1 mile at 20 takes 3 minutes. So the average journey is therefore 1 mile! I don’t believe that | |||
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I’m sure I’ll get used to it (will have no choice but to). But it’s an adjustment. And not everyone is adjusting, they are overtaking recklessly, and it’s those knobheads who won’t get caught speeding!
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"It’s a very strange person who thinks their right to arrive on average 1 minute earlier at their destination, is more important than saving lives. That maths suggests that the average journey distance is 1 mile. What's your maths? A journalist compared a fairly lengthy 30mph drive with a 20mph one in North Wales. Their 14 minute journey took 3 minutes longer at the slower speed. That's in a fairly traffic free area though. In stop/start traffic there's likely hardly any difference at all for most." Or to put it another way , more than 20% longer (I think, my maths isn’t great). A 20% increase doesn’t sound so good | |||
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"It’s a very strange person who thinks their right to arrive on average 1 minute earlier at their destination, is more important than saving lives. That maths suggests that the average journey distance is 1 mile. What's your maths? A journalist compared a fairly lengthy 30mph drive with a 20mph one in North Wales. Their 14 minute journey took 3 minutes longer at the slower speed. That's in a fairly traffic free area though. In stop/start traffic there's likely hardly any difference at all for most." Is a journey in north Wales typical then? As for maths T = d /s. A mile at 20 mph takes 3 mins. A mile at 30 mph takes 2 mins. | |||
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"It’s a very strange person who thinks their right to arrive on average 1 minute earlier at their destination, is more important than saving lives. That maths suggests that the average journey distance is 1 mile. What's your maths? A journalist compared a fairly lengthy 30mph drive with a 20mph one in North Wales. Their 14 minute journey took 3 minutes longer at the slower speed. That's in a fairly traffic free area though. In stop/start traffic there's likely hardly any difference at all for most. 3 minute and 1 minute are different numbers. A 1 minute difference, when changing from 30 to 20 suggests a journey difference of 1 mile. 1 mile at 30 takes 2 minutes. 1 mile at 20 takes 3 minutes. So the average journey is therefore 1 mile! I don’t believe that " The 20mph zones will be mostly in built up areas, where lots of journeys are stop start. Thus reducing the amount of time vehicles are able to travel at 30mph. Therefore simple maths is inappropriate in working out how long journeys will take. | |||
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"I dont think anyone is against a lower speed limit in high-rise areas, but a complete blanket change is a massive overkill. The real issue is road safety education. Pedestrians are often oblivious to vehicles because they are buried in their phones or headphones. I would hazard a guess that most fatal accidents are not caused by people driving at 30, but by people not paying attention, or driving dangerously, or d*unk, or high, or on their phones.... Or are on roads with limits over 30 anyway. I would also suggest that if people are driving more slowly, they are more likely to not pay proper attention. " I agree re driver inattentiveness when driving at very low speeds. I lived in the US for several years, in New York, and many major roads in the areas outside the city have 50mph speed limits. Big wide roads, very little traffic, 50mph feels really slow. I saw drivers getting dressed whorl driving, doing makeup in the mirror, typing on laptops on the steering wheels, eating meals with knife and fork … because trundling along at 49mph on a wide open road made them feel that keeping the car on the road didn’t need a lot of attention | |||
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"I dont think anyone is against a lower speed limit in high-rise areas, but a complete blanket change is a massive overkill. The real issue is road safety education. Pedestrians are often oblivious to vehicles because they are buried in their phones or headphones. I would hazard a guess that most fatal accidents are not caused by people driving at 30, but by people not paying attention, or driving dangerously, or d*unk, or high, or on their phones.... Or are on roads with limits over 30 anyway. I would also suggest that if people are driving more slowly, they are more likely to not pay proper attention. " Agree with the above. If anything, 20 will make the roads more dangerous. Constant braking while looking at the speedo. Pedestrians thinking "20...I am ok with looking at phone". It's another cash grab with motorists picking up the bill. | |||
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If you find it too difficult to drive a car safely at 20... why the fuck are you even allowed on the road? Seriously - get the bus. | |||
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"It’s a very strange person who thinks their right to arrive on average 1 minute earlier at their destination, is more important than saving lives." I'm not sure an argument of logic and proportionally interms of risk v environmental impact v time is what most consider. Although I get some will have assessed the outcome in terms of life's saved as not worth the inconvenience. But for most there's not deep consideration or evaluation. For most it's simply trumped by the prospect of having to drive at what feels painfully slow and difficult to drive at for long stretches. Mixed with the worry/hassle of fines and enforcement. After all when you have been driving in such areas for decades at 30 20 is so easy to slip over and margins for a ticket so slight (especially with Wales' quite aggressive and unforgiving enforcement of speed). This I believe is most motorist think (I must admit part of me feels this too). I belive this is a really politically damaging move for the Welsh Government. It is a democracy and there will no doubt be massive public pressure to repeal this. Especially if alternative parties do not fully back this as a matter of policy. We seen the effect of public resistance to such ideas effecting motoring in the Uxbridge by-election. Motorist tent to be motorcentric and they are a big part of the vote. So I think there is at least a chance of a U-Turn depending on the weight of pressure. However so much of London is now 20 MPH and it still stands. I understand a blanket 30 to 20mph is an easy way to go about things. However like many others I would question the wisdom of a blanked change in speed rather than the widening of 20mph zones where there is clearly a good case that benifit of it is well worthy. I think many could get behind more 20mph zones or at least be less resistant. But I think many resent say driving down a queit, we'll lit, open road in a built up area at say 2am in the morning at 20mph. Mr | |||
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"It’s a very strange person who thinks their right to arrive on average 1 minute earlier at their destination, is more important than saving lives. That maths suggests that the average journey distance is 1 mile. What's your maths? A journalist compared a fairly lengthy 30mph drive with a 20mph one in North Wales. Their 14 minute journey took 3 minutes longer at the slower speed. That's in a fairly traffic free area though. In stop/start traffic there's likely hardly any difference at all for most. 3 minute and 1 minute are different numbers. A 1 minute difference, when changing from 30 to 20 suggests a journey difference of 1 mile. 1 mile at 30 takes 2 minutes. 1 mile at 20 takes 3 minutes. So the average journey is therefore 1 mile! I don’t believe that The 20mph zones will be mostly in built up areas, where lots of journeys are stop start. Thus reducing the amount of time vehicles are able to travel at 30mph. Therefore simple maths is inappropriate in working out how long journeys will take." Of course. So let's just make shit up that suits our argument. | |||
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"Lol....you literally not pressing a pedal as hard...its hardly climbing the Igar. 20 is plenty around town, the stats do back this up, it saves life's. It's being spun as some right V left nonsense....its not its just sensible with the amount of cars now on the road." ..sensible if your car is happy ticking over at low revs in top gear, ideal for a diesel but if you have to drop a gear and rev higher it is not going to be eocnomical. | |||
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"I was in Wales today and my Sat-Nav said that the nearest McDonald's was a 10 minute drive away... Or 5 minutes if I walk it. "You can walk at 40mph? | |||
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"Lol....you literally not pressing a pedal as hard...its hardly climbing the Igar. 20 is plenty around town, the stats do back this up, it saves life's. It's being spun as some right V left nonsense....its not its just sensible with the amount of cars now on the road. ..sensible if your car is happy ticking over at low revs in top gear, ideal for a diesel but if you have to drop a gear and rev higher it is not going to be eocnomical." Diesels do not cope well with constant tick over. Have you heard about all the diesel BMW police cars going on fire ? .. because they spend so long at idle .. then get caned down the motorway for 2 minutes.. This 20mph thing is nothing but pure tyrannical grand standing and virtue signalling by the left. Straight from page 1 of the political correctness textbook. Any government advocating stuff like this needs run out of parliament. I hope the Welsh vote him out. | |||
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"There's another to use the same stats. If the average journey is only extended by 1minute...the distance is the same. The only thing changing is the speed. So on the average journey it adds 1 minute. Which means changing the speed limit has very little effect... So why not save the money and leave it as is? That argument doesn't work. Driving safer and particularly around schools and shops and towns.... Makes sense but it seems based on that argument that people are already driving about that speed. If the average journey time is to be believed. " The time when a driver is least in control of the car is when they are accelerating. Lowering speed limits means less acceleration, meaning less time not being in control of the car. | |||
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"Maybe wait until you’ve discovered just how little it actually impacts your journey times? Is an extra few minutes to a journey REALLY that much of an issue compared to LIVES that could be saved? " It massively impacts mine i drive 2000 miles a month | |||
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"At present this is not effecting me as I'm in England, but I think this is a wrong decision 20 is just too slow. As I never travel to Wales I shouldn't sign a petition. As soon as they try this for England I would " The 1 in 5 people killed when hit by a car at 30mpj might disagree with you.... | |||
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"My son got run over a few years back, by some traffic lights, thankfully he is ok, it is 30mph road, there is a banner up right by where he was run over and says "speed limit... suggestion not a target". We drove through Richmond towards the M25 in June after seeing Harry Styles, it was 20mph most of the way, never been to an area where it was a very long stretch, only outside schools. Didn't bother me tbh, it was dark and lighting not great, while I have eyes on the road the whole time, I felt safer for some reason. Danish x " Yeah but why does nobody think about the boy racers.... | |||
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" That's interesting. If its only adding a minute make the lazy fuckers walk. As that makes the average journey just over a mile. Think they're saying that's exactly what they want - more people to walk/cycle (and to be able to do so more safely). The reaction to this shows why politicians won't willingly invest in shifting people away from their cars. Anything getting in the way of voters driving as quickly as they can to the shop a mile down the road is political suicide." And rightly so. | |||
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"There's another to use the same stats. If the average journey is only extended by 1minute...the distance is the same. The only thing changing is the speed. So on the average journey it adds 1 minute. Which means changing the speed limit has very little effect... So why not save the money and leave it as is? That argument doesn't work. Driving safer and particularly around schools and shops and towns.... Makes sense but it seems based on that argument that people are already driving about that speed. If the average journey time is to be believed. The time when a driver is least in control of the car is when they are accelerating. Lowering speed limits means less acceleration, meaning less time not being in control of the car." Absolute nonsense. | |||
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"By my schoolboy maths, time = distance/speed, this means that the average journey by everyone in Wales is only 1 mile ! e.g. (1m / 30mph) x 60s = 2 minutes vs (1m x 20mph) x 60 = 3 minutes. For example: If Bryn drives his bakery van 10 miles through the beautiful Welsh countryside at 30 mph between delivery A and delivery B, how long will it take him? Answer: (10m / 30mph) x 60s = 20 minutes So how long will it now take Bryn to drive between the same deliveries if he has to reduce his speed to 20 mph. Answer: (10m / 20mph) x 60 = 30 minutes. Yes, it will take Bryn 10 minutes longer (on average) and not taking into account weather, traffic, schoolkids, stop-start etc – but regardless, It’s easy to see why it will put an enormous cost on the economy, more time, more hours to do the same job, more petrol/diesel, more wear and tear on vehicles etc etc. So, how much do you think a is life worth? In fact, the risk of dying in a road accident in any year in the UK approaches 1 in 20,000, the lifetime risk is 1 in 240 (source: bandolier dot org dot uk) If those statistics related to your child, brother, sister, mother, father, aunt, uncle etc – do you honestly think those odds are acceptable? (personally, I don’t) Extract from roadsafetywales (dot) org: In 2022 police forces in Wales recorded a total of 3,312 road collisions, broadly similar to the number seen in 2021, and a decrease of 23.5% compared to 2019. • These road collisions in 2022 resulted in 4,442 personal injuries. Of these, 93 people were killed, 921 people were seriously injured and 3,428 ‘slight’ injuries were recorded. • During 2022, over half of all road collisions (51%) occurred on 30mph roads with the next highest proportion (25%) occurring on 60mph roads. Road sections with a 20mph speed limit accounted for 6% of all collisions. Based on the above information that would mean a lot of families might still have a loved one coming home at night if speed restrictions were reduced to 20 mph (I haven't worked out the 'average', but fatalities would be greatly reduced). Reducing speed will come at a financial cost, but compared to how much a life is worth – I personally think its money well spent – 20 mph is NOT a bad thing. Oh, and if the argument comes down to either my children being hit by a speeding car and some eco warrior shouting about the carbon footprint – have a guess who I will put first? " And if Bryn is driving in the beautiful Welsh countryside then it’s highly unlikely he will be in a 20mph zone anyway. | |||
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"Just think electric cars can be controlled digitally and soon safety features will be mandatory, no speeding, correct distancing, so many lives saved " Based on the people who can't cope with driving at a slow steady speed, that time can't come soon enough. | |||
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"By my schoolboy maths, time = distance/speed, this means that the average journey by everyone in Wales is only 1 mile ! e.g. (1m / 30mph) x 60s = 2 minutes vs (1m x 20mph) x 60 = 3 minutes. For example: If Bryn drives his bakery van 10 miles through the beautiful Welsh countryside at 30 mph between delivery A and delivery B, how long will it take him? Answer: (10m / 30mph) x 60s = 20 minutes So how long will it now take Bryn to drive between the same deliveries if he has to reduce his speed to 20 mph. Answer: (10m / 20mph) x 60 = 30 minutes. Yes, it will take Bryn 10 minutes longer (on average) and not taking into account weather, traffic, schoolkids, stop-start etc – but regardless, It’s easy to see why it will put an enormous cost on the economy, more time, more hours to do the same job, more petrol/diesel, more wear and tear on vehicles etc etc. So, how much do you think a is life worth? In fact, the risk of dying in a road accident in any year in the UK approaches 1 in 20,000, the lifetime risk is 1 in 240 (source: bandolier dot org dot uk) If those statistics related to your child, brother, sister, mother, father, aunt, uncle etc – do you honestly think those odds are acceptable? (personally, I don’t) Extract from roadsafetywales (dot) org: In 2022 police forces in Wales recorded a total of 3,312 road collisions, broadly similar to the number seen in 2021, and a decrease of 23.5% compared to 2019. • These road collisions in 2022 resulted in 4,442 personal injuries. Of these, 93 people were killed, 921 people were seriously injured and 3,428 ‘slight’ injuries were recorded. • During 2022, over half of all road collisions (51%) occurred on 30mph roads with the next highest proportion (25%) occurring on 60mph roads. Road sections with a 20mph speed limit accounted for 6% of all collisions. Based on the above information that would mean a lot of families might still have a loved one coming home at night if speed restrictions were reduced to 20 mph (I haven't worked out the 'average', but fatalities would be greatly reduced). Reducing speed will come at a financial cost, but compared to how much a life is worth – I personally think its money well spent – 20 mph is NOT a bad thing. Oh, and if the argument comes down to either my children being hit by a speeding car and some eco warrior shouting about the carbon footprint – have a guess who I will put first? " How many of the deaths & serious injuries were by vehicles travelling at 30mph? Most serious injuries or fatalities in wales are usually motorcyclists or high speed drivers on unrestricted roads. Those statistics don’t include collision speed and location, therefore are skewing the 20 v 30 mph debate. | |||
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"And if Bryn is driving in the beautiful Welsh countryside then it’s highly unlikely he will be in a 20mph zone anyway. OK - so he's driving through a shitty welsh town instead - your point is ?" Then he may have to observe the 20mph limit. The point being that people are reacting like the entire country of Wales is facing a blanket 20mph limit and the M4 will be full of cars pootling along in 3rd gear, whereas in reality it will be in built up areas where there is greater risk of a crash involving a pedestrian. They aren’t going to replace people’s cars with horse and traps, it’s just that drivers will have to a little bit slower on some roads. | |||
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"How many of the deaths & serious injuries were by vehicles travelling at 30mph? Most serious injuries or fatalities in wales are usually motorcyclists or high speed drivers on unrestricted roads. Those statistics don’t include collision speed and location, therefore are skewing the 20 v 30 mph debate. " Police Reported Road Collisions: 2022 (Road Safety Wales) During 2022, over half of all road collisions (51%) occurred on 30mph roads with the next highest proportion (25%) occurring on 60mph roads. Road sections with a 20mph speed limit accounted for 6% of all collisions. Road collisions in 2022 resulted in 4,442 personal injuries. Of these, 93 people were killed, 921 people were seriously injured and 3,428 ‘slight’ injuries were recorded. If you're really interested the Welsh govt has a 'Recorded road accidents by speed limit, severity of accident and police force area' "Most serious injuries or fatalities in wales are usually motorcyclists or high speed drivers on unrestricted roads. " ^ Out of interest is this a fact? | |||
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"Just think electric cars can be controlled digitally and soon safety features will be mandatory, no speeding, correct distancing, so many lives saved " Never | |||
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"By my schoolboy maths, time = distance/speed, this means that the average journey by everyone in Wales is only 1 mile ! e.g. (1m / 30mph) x 60s = 2 minutes vs (1m x 20mph) x 60 = 3 minutes. For example: If Bryn drives his bakery van 10 miles through the beautiful Welsh countryside at 30 mph between delivery A and delivery B, how long will it take him? Answer: (10m / 30mph) x 60s = 20 minutes So how long will it now take Bryn to drive between the same deliveries if he has to reduce his speed to 20 mph. Answer: (10m / 20mph) x 60 = 30 minutes. Yes, it will take Bryn 10 minutes longer (on average) and not taking into account weather, traffic, schoolkids, stop-start etc – but regardless, It’s easy to see why it will put an enormous cost on the economy, more time, more hours to do the same job, more petrol/diesel, more wear and tear on vehicles etc etc. So, how much do you think a is life worth? In fact, the risk of dying in a road accident in any year in the UK approaches 1 in 20,000, the lifetime risk is 1 in 240 (source: bandolier dot org dot uk) If those statistics related to your child, brother, sister, mother, father, aunt, uncle etc – do you honestly think those odds are acceptable? (personally, I don’t) Extract from roadsafetywales (dot) org: In 2022 police forces in Wales recorded a total of 3,312 road collisions, broadly similar to the number seen in 2021, and a decrease of 23.5% compared to 2019. • These road collisions in 2022 resulted in 4,442 personal injuries. Of these, 93 people were killed, 921 people were seriously injured and 3,428 ‘slight’ injuries were recorded. • During 2022, over half of all road collisions (51%) occurred on 30mph roads with the next highest proportion (25%) occurring on 60mph roads. Road sections with a 20mph speed limit accounted for 6% of all collisions. Based on the above information that would mean a lot of families might still have a loved one coming home at night if speed restrictions were reduced to 20 mph (I haven't worked out the 'average', but fatalities would be greatly reduced). Reducing speed will come at a financial cost, but compared to how much a life is worth – I personally think its money well spent – 20 mph is NOT a bad thing. Oh, and if the argument comes down to either my children being hit by a speeding car and some eco warrior shouting about the carbon footprint – have a guess who I will put first? " The stats re the proportion of accidents / deaths in different speed limit zones only make sense if viewed in proportion to the amount of road that is covered by each speed limit. For example, if more 30 zones became 20 zones, then the number of accidents / deaths in 30 zones would go down. Would that mean that 30 zones were now suddenly safer? No | |||
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" How many of the deaths & serious injuries were by vehicles travelling at 30mph? Most serious injuries or fatalities in wales are usually motorcyclists or high speed drivers on unrestricted roads. Those statistics don’t include collision speed and location, therefore are skewing the 20 v 30 mph debate. " At 30 mph 51% were killed or seriously injured - I don't know the locations (only that the information relates to Wales) but please feel free to enlighten me if you have that information - the statistics I stated were taken from the road safety wales website. I think you can make your own assumptions about the location looking at the speeds - personally I would assume 30mph suburban 50mph urban 70 mph motorways etc. Looking at their website roads at 70 mph accounted for 4.7% of collisions. Motorcycles accounted for 9% of all collisions. I really don't think I am 'skewing' the 20 v 30 mph debate. The fact is, the faster you go, the more likely someone is going to die if you hit them - and that doesn't matter if you're on your bike, in a car or on the pavement, or if you're in a town, a village, a country road or the motorway. Speed kills - Statistics prove it - its a fact ! | |||
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"There's another to use the same stats. If the average journey is only extended by 1minute...the distance is the same. The only thing changing is the speed. So on the average journey it adds 1 minute. Which means changing the speed limit has very little effect... So why not save the money and leave it as is? That argument doesn't work. Driving safer and particularly around schools and shops and towns.... Makes sense but it seems based on that argument that people are already driving about that speed. If the average journey time is to be believed. The time when a driver is least in control of the car is when they are accelerating. Lowering speed limits means less acceleration, meaning less time not being in control of the car." Yeah but no but... If the journey time only changes by 1 Minute... Is evidence that the new speed limit will have minimal impact.. So de facto speedy uppy slowly downy isn't happening anyway... Not disputing when road accidents take place.. Though wonder where it is so stated.be interesting to find out how they establish the speed a vehicle is travelling let alone if it was accelerating or decelerating. | |||
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" How many of the deaths & serious injuries were by vehicles travelling at 30mph? Most serious injuries or fatalities in wales are usually motorcyclists or high speed drivers on unrestricted roads. Those statistics don’t include collision speed and location, therefore are skewing the 20 v 30 mph debate. At 30 mph 51% were killed or seriously injured - I don't know the locations (only that the information relates to Wales) but please feel free to enlighten me if you have that information - the statistics I stated were taken from the road safety wales website. I think you can make your own assumptions about the location looking at the speeds - personally I would assume 30mph suburban 50mph urban 70 mph motorways etc. Looking at their website roads at 70 mph accounted for 4.7% of collisions. Motorcycles accounted for 9% of all collisions. I really don't think I am 'skewing' the 20 v 30 mph debate. The fact is, the faster you go, the more likely someone is going to die if you hit them - and that doesn't matter if you're on your bike, in a car or on the pavement, or if you're in a town, a village, a country road or the motorway. Speed kills - Statistics prove it - its a fact ! " Statistics can and are used prove any outcome. Speed doesn’t kill, it’s the sudden stop at the end that kills. If you really wanted to know the facts, you’d need to do real research. There are not many people killed bumping into each other in towns as there are where serious speeds are reached. There are many many examples where people are killed on 30mph roads by vehicles travelling way in excess of that. They’d still be recorded on your statistics as a 30mph road. A quick newspaper search about fatal accidents will give you a better idea of what happens. Where I live, in the midlands it seems that most road deaths are nicked cars or cars racing on the highway. There have been several horror stories lately of innocent people killed due to this. | |||
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"Advocates doing 'proper research' while ignoring all the available data. The era of 'your truth' "Oh well, it’s more the era of shutting down any reasonable debate. Well done. | |||
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" How many of the deaths & serious injuries were by vehicles travelling at 30mph? Most serious injuries or fatalities in wales are usually motorcyclists or high speed drivers on unrestricted roads. Those statistics don’t include collision speed and location, therefore are skewing the 20 v 30 mph debate. At 30 mph 51% were killed or seriously injured - I don't know the locations (only that the information relates to Wales) but please feel free to enlighten me if you have that information - the statistics I stated were taken from the road safety wales website. I think you can make your own assumptions about the location looking at the speeds - personally I would assume 30mph suburban 50mph urban 70 mph motorways etc. Looking at their website roads at 70 mph accounted for 4.7% of collisions. Motorcycles accounted for 9% of all collisions. I really don't think I am 'skewing' the 20 v 30 mph debate. The fact is, the faster you go, the more likely someone is going to die if you hit them - and that doesn't matter if you're on your bike, in a car or on the pavement, or if you're in a town, a village, a country road or the motorway. Speed kills - Statistics prove it - its a fact ! Statistics can and are used prove any outcome. Speed doesn’t kill, it’s the sudden stop at the end that kills. If you really wanted to know the facts, you’d need to do real research. There are not many people killed bumping into each other in towns as there are where serious speeds are reached. There are many many examples where people are killed on 30mph roads by vehicles travelling way in excess of that. They’d still be recorded on your statistics as a 30mph road. A quick newspaper search about fatal accidents will give you a better idea of what happens. Where I live, in the midlands it seems that most road deaths are nicked cars or cars racing on the highway. There have been several horror stories lately of innocent people killed due to this. " Don't let facts get in the way of research... | |||
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" Statistics can and are used prove any outcome. Speed doesn’t kill, it’s the sudden stop at the end that kills. If you really wanted to know the facts, you’d need to do real research. There are not many people killed bumping into each other in towns as there are where serious speeds are reached. There are many many examples where people are killed on 30mph roads by vehicles travelling way in excess of that. They’d still be recorded on your statistics as a 30mph road. A quick newspaper search about fatal accidents will give you a better idea of what happens. Where I live, in the midlands it seems that most road deaths are nicked cars or cars racing on the highway. There have been several horror stories lately of innocent people killed due to this. " Yes, statistics can be used and can be interpreted differently by different people but contrary to your response they are NOT my statistics, the website from which the ‘real research’ was done was from the official government website (webpage sited in original post). However, I bow my head in awe to your supreme ability to gather real facts from your local paper! And far as ‘speed doesn’t kill’ it’s the sudden stop, where on earth in ‘your research’ does that come from? The following is a statement from www brake org uk (just a little research you may like to take a look at). ‘such as a child stepping out from between parked cars – it is a driver’s speed that will determine whether they can stop in time and, if they can’t stop, how hard they will hit. A vehicle travelling at 20mph would stop in time to avoid a child running out three car-lengths in front. The same vehicle travelling at 25mph would not be able to stop in time, and would hit the child at 18mph. This is roughly the same impact as a child falling from an upstairs window. The greater the impact speed, the greater the chance of death. A pedestrian hit at 30mph has a very significant (one in five) chance of being killed. This rises significantly to a one in three chance if they are hit at 35mph. Even small increases in speed can lead to an increase in impact severity. END: Okay, so you state it’s ‘the stop’ that kills and not the speed – think about a head on collision - 2 cars travelling at 10 mph will have a combined speed of 20 mph so it stands to reason that 2 cars traveling at 30 mph have a combined impact of 60 mph do you really believe it was the stopping that killed or seriously injured them – no it was the impact of the combined speed and the sudden de-acceleration that did it….because they didn’t stop ! Speed kills - the faster you're going the greater the impact - the greater the impact the more likely you are to die - FACT | |||
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"Advocates doing 'proper research' while ignoring all the available data. The era of 'your truth'
Oh well, it’s more the era of shutting down any reasonable debate. Well done. "Was the reasonable debate the bit where you conveniently made up facts while rubbishing the available data when it didn't suit your chosen narrative? Oh and the obligatory thumbs | |||
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" Don't let facts get in the way of research... " And anecdotes = facts?! Literally copied and pasted the available stats which prove what bollocks have been written above... but instead we'll go along with 'well in my neighborhood only boy racers die when they crash with motorbikes'. | |||
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"Actually looking at those Welsh gov stats it says there are 12 road fatalities so far this year. 2 at 60mph 2 at 50 8 at 30 Last year there were 27 at 30 mph (vs 12 at 70mph which presumably includes faster too). There were also two deaths at 20mph in 2022." There's defintely more nuance to those stats. Most vehicles travelling on 50mph+ roads will be travelling in one direction only. There is more road in 30mph zones, therefore proportionality has to be taken into account. Any speed zone collisions weren't necessarily travelling at the speed limit. I'm not disputing the stats but they don't tell a complete story. | |||
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" Don't let facts get in the way of research... And anecdotes = facts?! Literally copied and pasted the available stats which prove what bollocks have been written above... but instead we'll go along with 'well in my neighborhood only boy racers die when they crash with motorbikes'. " Literally copied and pasted. So Welsh gov put out there that 8 road deaths from people travelling at 30mph did they? Just a question. How did they know what speed people were travelling? Are you sure that they aren't collisions in a 30mph speed limit zone? Because the implication from those stats would seem to be less people die if you drive faster? | |||
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" Don't let facts get in the way of research... And anecdotes = facts?! Literally copied and pasted the available stats which prove what bollocks have been written above... but instead we'll go along with 'well in my neighborhood only boy racers die when they crash with motorbikes'. Literally copied and pasted. So Welsh gov put out there that 8 road deaths from people travelling at 30mph did they? Just a question. How did they know what speed people were travelling? Are you sure that they aren't collisions in a 30mph speed limit zone? Because the implication from those stats would seem to be less people die if you drive faster? " From what I remember the stats were that the largest numbers of fatalities were at 30mph along with similar numbers for speeds between 50-60. I'd guess that makes up those in urban areas at the lower speed and those on single carriageways at the higher speeds. But it does suggest the earliest suggestions about most deaths being at high speeds and/or motorbikes isn't correct. | |||
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" There's defintely more nuance to those stats. Most vehicles travelling on 50mph+ roads will be travelling in one direction only. There is more road in 30mph zones, therefore proportionality has to be taken into account. Any speed zone collisions weren't necessarily travelling at the speed limit. I'm not disputing the stats but they don't tell a complete story. " For sure. I was mostly looking to see if the earlier claims had any substance (that 30 is already safe enough and that most fatalities are at high speeds). However you look at it those particular claims don't seem accurate. | |||
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" There's defintely more nuance to those stats. Most vehicles travelling on 50mph+ roads will be travelling in one direction only. There is more road in 30mph zones, therefore proportionality has to be taken into account. Any speed zone collisions weren't necessarily travelling at the speed limit. I'm not disputing the stats but they don't tell a complete story. For sure. I was mostly looking to see if the earlier claims had any substance (that 30 is already safe enough and that most fatalities are at high speeds). However you look at it those particular claims don't seem accurate." Do you know how many of those collisions at 30mph involved pedestrians? I'd imagine the ones at higher speeds wouldn't (maybe the odd one) | |||
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" There's defintely more nuance to those stats. Most vehicles travelling on 50mph+ roads will be travelling in one direction only. There is more road in 30mph zones, therefore proportionality has to be taken into account. Any speed zone collisions weren't necessarily travelling at the speed limit. I'm not disputing the stats but they don't tell a complete story. For sure. I was mostly looking to see if the earlier claims had any substance (that 30 is already safe enough and that most fatalities are at high speeds). However you look at it those particular claims don't seem accurate. Do you know how many of those collisions at 30mph involved pedestrians? I'd imagine the ones at higher speeds wouldn't (maybe the odd one)" Don't worry, I found the report. | |||
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" There's defintely more nuance to those stats. Most vehicles travelling on 50mph+ roads will be travelling in one direction only. There is more road in 30mph zones, therefore proportionality has to be taken into account. Any speed zone collisions weren't necessarily travelling at the speed limit. I'm not disputing the stats but they don't tell a complete story. For sure. I was mostly looking to see if the earlier claims had any substance (that 30 is already safe enough and that most fatalities are at high speeds). However you look at it those particular claims don't seem accurate. Do you know how many of those collisions at 30mph involved pedestrians? I'd imagine the ones at higher speeds wouldn't (maybe the odd one)" The figures didn't state. I'd assume most? Either way it appears to back up the case to lower the limits from a perspective of reducing deaths and serious injuries. | |||
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" There's defintely more nuance to those stats. Most vehicles travelling on 50mph+ roads will be travelling in one direction only. There is more road in 30mph zones, therefore proportionality has to be taken into account. Any speed zone collisions weren't necessarily travelling at the speed limit. I'm not disputing the stats but they don't tell a complete story. For sure. I was mostly looking to see if the earlier claims had any substance (that 30 is already safe enough and that most fatalities are at high speeds). However you look at it those particular claims don't seem accurate. Do you know how many of those collisions at 30mph involved pedestrians? I'd imagine the ones at higher speeds wouldn't (maybe the odd one) The figures didn't state. I'd assume most? Either way it appears to back up the case to lower the limits from a perspective of reducing deaths and serious injuries." This is just casualties as the report doesn't break down to KSI in the different speed zones. The figures for pedestrians is as reads: 20 - 73 30 - 440 40 - 20 50 - 10 60 - 19 70 - 7 On the note of motorcyclists, per billion vehicle km, they are far far more likely to be involved in KSI collisions (we all probably know that) but no mention of speed zones. | |||
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"I don’t really have a problem with it ..I have more of a issue with the way they have fucked up the heads of the valleys .."Eh? It’s far safer than the alternating suicide lanes of 20 years ago. Once the Hirwaun to Dowlais Top section is done, it’ll be a brilliant alternative to the M4 | |||
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"Some may say don’t let stats get in the way of the truth ! In my opinion (based on how I feel and not on statistics) – the government have two options to change people’s driving behaviour. 1: Ask them nicely to slow down (yeah, good luck with that one) 2. implement restrictions. The majority of people do drive responsibly, but then there are those that just stick two fingers up to any rules. Take a drive in the middle lane on a busy motorway – look to your left and right and see how many people have mobile phones up to their ears, or when you indicate to pull out witness the twat in the fast lane floor-it because ‘he (or she) rules that lane and not you – or the lane hogger who owns that and every other lane. Stand on a corner by traffic lights and count how many people go past with their phones up to their ears – or those that jump the lights, just sniff the air around you on nearly any road and get the distinct whiff of . Do 30 mph in a 30 limit and see who wants to drive 2 feet off your arse trying to bully you to go faster. Driving is rarely a pleasurable thing to do anymore – it’s a task, an effort and its stressful and this is caused by a minority who really don’t give a toss. The limits are not being imposed as a government cash-cow, its being imposed to deter the idiots who don’t follow the rules (or believe the statistics) – don’t blame the government, blame the ‘entitled’ who’ve screwed it up for everyone else. " Maybe. Do you the poor state of our roads. The way we do oir roadworks, the lack of drainage, the lack of clear markings, the crumbling road surface might also contribute to road fatalities... Not discountinng the things you've mentioned but do wonder how often mobile phones contribute compared to the endless miles of contraflow with cars travelling Headon toward eachother at a combined speed of 120 mph and separated by a line of plastic cones. Be interested in knowing which is the largest contributor | |||
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" Don't let facts get in the way of research... And anecdotes = facts?! Literally copied and pasted the available stats which prove what bollocks have been written above... but instead we'll go along with 'well in my neighborhood only boy racers die when they crash with motorbikes'. " stats don’t give any context. The newspapers tell you more information about what actually happened. For example someone suffering a medical emergency then crashing or someone drink driving. Your salty response suggests you already know this but choose to ignore. | |||
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" Statistics can and are used prove any outcome. Speed doesn’t kill, it’s the sudden stop at the end that kills. If you really wanted to know the facts, you’d need to do real research. There are not many people killed bumping into each other in towns as there are where serious speeds are reached. There are many many examples where people are killed on 30mph roads by vehicles travelling way in excess of that. They’d still be recorded on your statistics as a 30mph road. A quick newspaper search about fatal accidents will give you a better idea of what happens. Where I live, in the midlands it seems that most road deaths are nicked cars or cars racing on the highway. There have been several horror stories lately of innocent people killed due to this. Yes, statistics can be used and can be interpreted differently by different people but contrary to your response they are NOT my statistics, the website from which the ‘real research’ was done was from the official government website (webpage sited in original post). However, I bow my head in awe to your supreme ability to gather real facts from your local paper! And far as ‘speed doesn’t kill’ it’s the sudden stop, where on earth in ‘your research’ does that come from? The following is a statement from www brake org uk (just a little research you may like to take a look at). ‘such as a child stepping out from between parked cars – it is a driver’s speed that will determine whether they can stop in time and, if they can’t stop, how hard they will hit. A vehicle travelling at 20mph would stop in time to avoid a child running out three car-lengths in front. The same vehicle travelling at 25mph would not be able to stop in time, and would hit the child at 18mph. This is roughly the same impact as a child falling from an upstairs window. The greater the impact speed, the greater the chance of death. A pedestrian hit at 30mph has a very significant (one in five) chance of being killed. This rises significantly to a one in three chance if they are hit at 35mph. Even small increases in speed can lead to an increase in impact severity. END: Okay, so you state it’s ‘the stop’ that kills and not the speed – think about a head on collision - 2 cars travelling at 10 mph will have a combined speed of 20 mph so it stands to reason that 2 cars traveling at 30 mph have a combined impact of 60 mph do you really believe it was the stopping that killed or seriously injured them – no it was the impact of the combined speed and the sudden de-acceleration that did it….because they didn’t stop ! Speed kills - the faster you're going the greater the impact - the greater the impact the more likely you are to die - FACT " Exactly it’s the deceleration from 60 to zero in such a short time. That’s the bit that kills. You know, the sudden stop. | |||
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When you drown it isn't the water that kills you. It's the lack of air
I do wonder how many that responded to the petition actually live/work in Wales. | |||
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" Statistics can and are used prove any outcome. Speed doesn’t kill, it’s the sudden stop at the end that kills. If you really wanted to know the facts, you’d need to do real research. There are not many people killed bumping into each other in towns as there are where serious speeds are reached. There are many many examples where people are killed on 30mph roads by vehicles travelling way in excess of that. They’d still be recorded on your statistics as a 30mph road. A quick newspaper search about fatal accidents will give you a better idea of what happens. Where I live, in the midlands it seems that most road deaths are nicked cars or cars racing on the highway. There have been several horror stories lately of innocent people killed due to this. Yes, statistics can be used and can be interpreted differently by different people but contrary to your response they are NOT my statistics, the website from which the ‘real research’ was done was from the official government website (webpage sited in original post). However, I bow my head in awe to your supreme ability to gather real facts from your local paper! And far as ‘speed doesn’t kill’ it’s the sudden stop, where on earth in ‘your research’ does that come from? The following is a statement from www brake org uk (just a little research you may like to take a look at). ‘such as a child stepping out from between parked cars – it is a driver’s speed that will determine whether they can stop in time and, if they can’t stop, how hard they will hit. A vehicle travelling at 20mph would stop in time to avoid a child running out three car-lengths in front. The same vehicle travelling at 25mph would not be able to stop in time, and would hit the child at 18mph. This is roughly the same impact as a child falling from an upstairs window. The greater the impact speed, the greater the chance of death. A pedestrian hit at 30mph has a very significant (one in five) chance of being killed. This rises significantly to a one in three chance if they are hit at 35mph. Even small increases in speed can lead to an increase in impact severity. END: Okay, so you state it’s ‘the stop’ that kills and not the speed – think about a head on collision - 2 cars travelling at 10 mph will have a combined speed of 20 mph so it stands to reason that 2 cars traveling at 30 mph have a combined impact of 60 mph do you really believe it was the stopping that killed or seriously injured them – no it was the impact of the combined speed and the sudden de-acceleration that did it….because they didn’t stop ! Speed kills - the faster you're going the greater the impact - the greater the impact the more likely you are to die - FACT Exactly it’s the deceleration from 60 to zero in such a short time. That’s the bit that kills. You know, the sudden stop." If you are in a car, yes. The good thing about being inside a car is that you are encased in two tons of steel designed to keep you alive, reducing the speed limit will have very little effect on the mortality rates of people inside cars. BUT, and bear with me a second here because this is quite a radical idea. What if this isn’t about car drivers? What if the people we’re trying to make things safer for aren’t the ones encased in two tons of steel designed to keep them alive? | |||
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" Don't let facts get in the way of research... And anecdotes = facts?! Literally copied and pasted the available stats which prove what bollocks have been written above... but instead we'll go along with 'well in my neighborhood only boy racers die when they crash with motorbikes'. stats don’t give any context. The newspapers tell you more information about what actually happened. For example someone suffering a medical emergency then crashing or someone drink driving. Your salty response suggests you already know this but choose to ignore." Newspaper articles focus on the unusual, the things that happen rarely, that’s why they are news. Newspapers don’t sell on the strength of reporting ‘thing that happens every day happens again’. This leads to availability bias, we start to believe that things that happen rarely are happening more frequently than they are, because they are given such prominence in newspapers. | |||
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" Don't let facts get in the way of research... And anecdotes = facts?! Literally copied and pasted the available stats which prove what bollocks have been written above... but instead we'll go along with 'well in my neighborhood only boy racers die when they crash with motorbikes'. stats don’t give any context. The newspapers tell you more information about what actually happened. For example someone suffering a medical emergency then crashing or someone drink driving. Your salty response suggests you already know this but choose to ignore. Newspaper articles focus on the unusual, the things that happen rarely, that’s why they are news. Newspapers don’t sell on the strength of reporting ‘thing that happens every day happens again’. This leads to availability bias, we start to believe that things that happen rarely are happening more frequently than they are, because they are given such prominence in newspapers." That is so true. About so many things. | |||
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"At least its a lot easier to put make up on,eat your breakfast,and text and easier to add to the pollution issue by driving in 2nd-and 3rd gear,clog up those MAP and MAF sensors and clog up your pointless EGR 'pollution'helper... " Followed a guy doing a newspaper crossword along the m40 once... Folded up on the centre of his steering wheel. Not doing 20mph I might add. | |||
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"I used to love driving. I now hate it in the uk. Me too Woody the driving experience has gone whats the point of owning a sports car, motorists basically support this country in fines, you may as well travel by bus "I can’t quite tell what this is an argument for, and whether the irony goes above me or I’m reading into it unnecessarily - but surely, if a hobby directly and indirectly harms innocent bystanders (in this case the entire population), it should be discouraged. No? | |||
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