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A Ranty Type of Question - un-enforcable debt

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

I live in a rented flat. The development is part local authority, part private. I rent from a private landlord.

All the properties are maintained by a property maintenance company that is part of the local authority and my landlord pays them a monthly fee.

At around 3 this morning my downstairs neighbours wake me, reporting a water leak. Water off, still leaking. Call the out of hours for the maintenance company knowing that they do some repairs but not others. Mention that I'm a tenant and mention my landlady which to me is pretty obvious that I'm private, I'm not asked whether I'm council tenant or not. Told that if it's a fault for an appliance I will be charged a call out fee. Plumber comes out, isolates leak, states that someone will be back this morning to fix it. Take day off work, no one comes out, ring management company and get told as I'm a private tennant not their responsibility, that they shouldn't have sent someone out but that they didn't see a reason to tell me that no one would come out today. Oh and the icing on the cake £150 call out fee as he was called out in error!

They have admitted that they never send emergency plumber to private addresses, confirmed that the only way that that can have happened is their error (not asking the question and not checking the address), but maintain that the charge is due!

Am I right in thinking that this is an un-enforcable debt with no legal basis?

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

Are their calls recorded, if so ask fir a copy so you can prove you made them aware you were private.

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By *etillanteWoman
over a year ago

.

Have you spoken to your landlord, if he is paying them a retainer, surely this should be covered by that

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Are their calls recorded, if so ask fir a copy so you can prove you made them aware you were private. "

They don;t know if their calls are recorded... Already asked that. Which I suspects means that they know that they aren't

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You say ........All the properties are maintained by a property maintenance company that is part of the local authority and my landlord pays them a monthly fee..........

Surely if your ll is paying them a fee and the m co is part of the LA then you should not be paying anything in any case?

Anyway why should you pay for a plumber that you did not even choose?

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Have you spoken to your landlord, if he is paying them a retainer, surely this should be covered by that"

Yes and she is of the same opinion of me, that she wouldn't have known exactly what was covered by the management fee and ringing them was the obvious and sensible thing to do

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By *Ryan-Man
over a year ago

In Your Bush

I wouldn't worry about it either way. Bat it back to the landlord to sort out.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I wouldn't worry about it either way. Bat it back to the landlord to sort out."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

As a tenant you should have called the landlord and let them deal with it. Appreciate it was out of hours and you were trying to be helpful but it would have avoided the situation you now find yourself in. I wouldn't pay the bill and see what happens.

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By *oodmessMan
over a year ago

yumsville

yep - landlords problem not yours

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

Not keen on shafting the landlady, she is very good and we also get a very good deal on rent. Her opinion is the same as mine in that they are taking the proverbial but obviously as I had the conversations I need to contest it as she doesn;t know what was said. I know she will pay it if push comes to shove bit morally I think that deferring the onus to her would be wrong.

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By *eal_Dick_TurpinMan
over a year ago

Exeter

As a tenant you have a legal contract with the landlord and no-one else.

It is 100% the landlord's problem to sort it out.

You have a 100% duty to inform the landlord, and allow the landlord or their appointed workmen access to sort the problem.

It is 100% the landlord who will be liable for water damage to flats below.

It is now time for you to put the issues IN WRITING to the landlord in such a way that delivery can be proven and exact copies kept.

You can EASILY be looking at tens of thousand of pounds of liability for water damage, so don't fuck around with this, which means do not stray one iota from the LAW and your TENANCY AGREEMENT which you should have been re-reading this morning, or else YOU PERSONALLY can end up liable for failing to "report" AS DEFINED IN YOUR TENANCY AGREEMENT or delaying landord's workmen access.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Not keen on shafting the landlady, she is very good and we also get a very good deal on rent. Her opinion is the same as mine in that they are taking the proverbial but obviously as I had the conversations I need to contest it as she doesn;t know what was said. I know she will pay it if push comes to shove bit morally I think that deferring the onus to her would be wrong."

crikey, she is the landlady for goodness sakes, she can't take the money without some responsibility and she is paying a fee. She must see the need to find out exactly what she is supposed to be getting for her money.

Unlesss.......... she is not paying the fee????? Even then she is the landlady you should go through her. This is the way of the procedure. The correct way, you are not "shafting" her.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"As a tenant you have a legal contract with the landlord and no-one else.

It is 100% the landlord's problem to sort it out.

You have a 100% duty to inform the landlord, and allow the landlord or their appointed workmen access to sort the problem.

It is 100% the landlord who will be liable for water damage to flats below.

It is now time for you to put the issues IN WRITING to the landlord in such a way that delivery can be proven and exact copies kept.

You can EASILY be looking at tens of thousand of pounds of liability for water damage, so don't fuck around with this, which means do not stray one iota from the LAW and your TENANCY AGREEMENT which you should have been re-reading this morning, or else YOU PERSONALLY can end up liable for failing to "report" AS DEFINED IN YOUR TENANCY AGREEMENT or delaying landord's workmen access.

"

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By *Ryan-Man
over a year ago

In Your Bush

Step outside the thread for a minute and construct your own reply, assuming it was someone else who had originally posted.

ps. Don't forget to put a book down the seat of your pants.

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

Don't we have someone here who owns/ manages hundreds of houses/ flats?

Maybe a "professional" opinion would help

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Don't we have someone here who owns/ manages hundreds of houses/ flats?

Maybe a "professional" opinion would help "

I'm a landlord, tenant should not have got anyone in, per the tenancy agreement it is up to the landlord to deal with these issues.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire


"Don't we have someone here who owns/ manages hundreds of houses/ flats?

Maybe a "professional" opinion would help

I'm a landlord, tenant should not have got anyone in, per the tenancy agreement it is up to the landlord to deal with these issues."

and when the landlord is not available, what then..?

any water leak from above has consequences for those below..

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Don't we have someone here who owns/ manages hundreds of houses/ flats?

Maybe a "professional" opinion would help

I'm a landlord, tenant should not have got anyone in, per the tenancy agreement it is up to the landlord to deal with these issues."

My logic was that in previous flats there has been a letting agent and I would have contacted them and not the landlord direct. As there is no letting agent but a management company that deal with the upkeep and maintenance of the building then I don't think that my logic was particularly flawed in calling them. My landlord has confirmed that she would have done the exact same thing.

The landlord knows and has already sorted a plumber out who is fixing it as I type.

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By *eal_Dick_TurpinMan
over a year ago

Exeter


"

My logic was that in previous flats there has been a letting agent and I would have contacted them and not the landlord direct. As there is no letting agent but a management company that deal with the upkeep and maintenance of the building then I don't think that my logic was particularly flawed in calling them. My landlord has confirmed that she would have done the exact same thing."

Your logic is fine, your attitude as a decent human being is fine.

The problem is, in LAW, you did the exact wrong thing.

Water damage from "upstairs" is an absolute classic example, next thing you know downstairs claims for new 60" telly, new Technics stereo, new Wilton carpets, new Sofa, cost 12k

Downstairs insurance companies then pursue upstairs landlord for 12k plus costs, it is already a legal matter, not a reasonable human being matter.

Your reasonable human being landlord is handed a bill for 15k, he shows it to his solictor, his solicitors says well, you can either pay it, or make your tenant pay it, because they breached the terms of the contract by NOT contacting you first...

Breaches of contract are like pregnancy, you are either pregnant or you are not, and you are either within the LETTER of your contract, or you are not.

Sounds like this time you got away with it...fingers crossed

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

My logic was that in previous flats there has been a letting agent and I would have contacted them and not the landlord direct. As there is no letting agent but a management company that deal with the upkeep and maintenance of the building then I don't think that my logic was particularly flawed in calling them. My landlord has confirmed that she would have done the exact same thing.

Your logic is fine, your attitude as a decent human being is fine.

The problem is, in LAW, you did the exact wrong thing.

Water damage from "upstairs" is an absolute classic example, next thing you know downstairs claims for new 60" telly, new Technics stereo, new Wilton carpets, new Sofa, cost 12k

Downstairs insurance companies then pursue upstairs landlord for 12k plus costs, it is already a legal matter, not a reasonable human being matter.

Your reasonable human being landlord is handed a bill for 15k, he shows it to his solictor, his solicitors says well, you can either pay it, or make your tenant pay it, because they breached the terms of the contract by NOT contacting you first...

Breaches of contract are like pregnancy, you are either pregnant or you are not, and you are either within the LETTER of your contract, or you are not.

Sounds like this time you got away with it...fingers crossed"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I have experience in this field as another poster mentions contact tge company that are trying to charge tell them you are disputing it they have to have a complaints procedure. Get the full name of who you speak to and their position benefits of this are two fold one its helps moving forward and will make then realise you know what they are doing whether you or not. Getting name is good because the person concerned will be wary in case they mess up. Get a direct enail address and email complaint too with nane of who you spoke to.

Do not pay anything even if you get demand letters its part of the process. Finally if a debt of less than 250 is owed its not cost effective for companies to court.

Message me direct if you need further infi.

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By *icebloke..but filthyMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

I had the exact same thing happen to me. If the mgmt company have the property on their books, surely they would know if it's a council or private property...it's them having a little cash scam, but on this occasion they've admitted the mistake was theirs. Let them battle it it out with your landlord; most have a deal whereby if a repair costs less than a couple of hundred pounds, then they just get on with it...any phonecalls for less is just hassle in most landlords' eyes...good luck, and don't pay the bill. Especially if you didn't call them.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"

My logic was that in previous flats there has been a letting agent and I would have contacted them and not the landlord direct. As there is no letting agent but a management company that deal with the upkeep and maintenance of the building then I don't think that my logic was particularly flawed in calling them. My landlord has confirmed that she would have done the exact same thing.

Your logic is fine, your attitude as a decent human being is fine.

The problem is, in LAW, you did the exact wrong thing.

Water damage from "upstairs" is an absolute classic example, next thing you know downstairs claims for new 60" telly, new Technics stereo, new Wilton carpets, new Sofa, cost 12k

Downstairs insurance companies then pursue upstairs landlord for 12k plus costs, it is already a legal matter, not a reasonable human being matter.

Your reasonable human being landlord is handed a bill for 15k, he shows it to his solictor, his solicitors says well, you can either pay it, or make your tenant pay it, because they breached the terms of the contract by NOT contacting you first...

Breaches of contract are like pregnancy, you are either pregnant or you are not, and you are either within the LETTER of your contract, or you are not.

Sounds like this time you got away with it...fingers crossed"

Speaking hypothetically surely the fact that I called the management company as soon as I was aware and they came out and effected a temporary repair negates any liability on my part? It's not like I ignored the issue.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Don't we have someone here who owns/ manages hundreds of houses/ flats?

Maybe a "professional" opinion would help

I'm a landlord, tenant should not have got anyone in, per the tenancy agreement it is up to the landlord to deal with these issues.

and when the landlord is not available, what then..?

any water leak from above has consequences for those below..

"

A person living in an accommodation is responsible for it's immediate security, be it shoring up broken windows or turning off the stop-cock on a water main. They are protecting themselves by doing so.

In this instance, any water that had escaped had already done whatever damage is was going to do and turning the stop-cock off would have isolated the leak until such a time as the landlady could be contacted and then she would have had to get it sorted.

With this not being the sequence of events I would firstly pay the amount due and then sort it out with the landlady by offering to go halves on it.

Either that, or as said above, bat it back to her for her to sort out, but don't be surprised if you find your rent going up in the near future.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"I had the exact same thing happen to me. If the mgmt company have the property on their books, surely they would know if it's a council or private property...it's them having a little cash scam, but on this occasion they've admitted the mistake was theirs."

This is exactly my thought, their mistake and either a scam to make a little extra cash or an attempt to cover up a mistake.

I'm failing to see how they can charge me for their mistake in sending someone out.

But interestingly, and enforcing my belief that they are on the make, their plumber has said it was the appliance (which is what they initially said I could be charged for) at fault, but the plumber that has just left having repaired it is very specific that it was the plumbing.

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By *eal_Dick_TurpinMan
over a year ago

Exeter


"

Speaking hypothetically surely the fact that I called the management company as soon as I was aware and they came out and effected a temporary repair negates any liability on my part? It's not like I ignored the issue.

"

There are few hypothetical questions in contract law.

if you tenancy agreement states in black and white that you should tell the management company and not the landlord, you are covered.

If it states you must contact the landlord then you must contact the landlord pronto.

if it says nothing then by definition it binds ONLY those whose names appear at the end, e.g. tenant and landlord.

=================================

Let's say you are a couple with a small child (flat 2a), upstairs (flat 3a) leaves the bath running and next thing you know the bath comes through the ceiling and your kiddie needs 100k of plastic surgery.

Who would you rather be suing.

1/ A professional landlord of flat 3a with a correct and valid legal public insurance policy in place.

2/ A DIY BTL landlord of flat 3a

3/ The tenant of 3a, who is on JSA.

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By *eal_Dick_TurpinMan
over a year ago

Exeter

To make this clear...

4 "actors"

1 tenant

2 landlord

3 management co

4 me, dick turpin (assume I am a telephone guy)

tenancy agreement is between 1 and 2, and signed by 1 and 2, and copies held by 1 and 2

nothing else matters, you can call 3 or 4, they are going to bill you, because neither 3 nor 4 have their names on that tenancy agreement.

Legally you may as well ask me (4) to settle the plumbers bill, in law it has as much to do with me as it does 3

Legally you may as well ask 3 to pay my (4) bill when you call me in to sort your phone out.

===================

This is why you NEVER EVER EVER wave someone across a pelican crossing you have stopped at, if the car in the next land does NOT stop and runs them over, they can sue YOUR ASS, because YOU indicated to them it was safe to proceed.

Contract law is like this, the INSTANT you step outside black and white the whole thing is up for grabs.

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