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"I think if Labour want to level the playing field of education (which is a very laudable goal) then they should be doing it by raising the standards/funding in non private schools and not by looking to reduce standards/funding in private schools. No one benefits by making good schools poorer. We all benefit by making poor schools good. That’s how averages work and it would seem that Labour don’t understand basic maths." 
Diane Abbott
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"I think if Labour want to level the playing field of education (which is a very laudable goal) then they should be doing it by raising the standards/funding in non private schools and not by looking to reduce standards/funding in private schools. No one benefits by making good schools poorer. We all benefit by making poor schools good. That’s how averages work and it would seem that Labour don’t understand basic maths.
Diane Abbott
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"Inspired by Shag’s thread on teachers’ pay: This is, probably, a highly inflammatory question but I don’t mean it to be. I’m just wondering what your view is on it. Labour says they’ll introduce VAT on public/independent school fees. Currently, they are exempt from VAT due to the provision of education rule and charity status. - The fees pay for the teachers and support staff, without drawing on state funds, who in turn pay an income tax. - The children attending are not burdening already stretched state school resources. - Fees are not tax-deductible on personal income tax claims, which means paying personal income tax to HMRC on it. Adding VAT would mean the fees are, essentially, double-taxed (Minimum 20% income tax + 20% VAT). - Many foreigners send their children to these schools, which would include expenses beyond only the school fees, such as hotel fees including VAT during visits, guardianship service fees with the relevant income tax paid to HMRC from the hosts and so on. Overall, isn’t a private education already adding to the national coffers without being penalised further? Bearing in mind that we are not talking about the personal income or wealth of the parents but the education of the children, a requirement that the state provides for ‘free’, is this a fair or vindictive tax? Why so? Miles" I think it's a reasonable policy. Loads of stuff is "double taxed" so that's a non argument in my view | |||
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"Virtually everything with VAT is double-taxed. The thing they need to be careful of is that they will push people who can only just afford it out of private education and into public. That means more revenue required for schools. Hopefully the VAT raised would pay for it but I don't know. It could end up being revenue-neutral or even a net loss. Would that really be an improvement on people funding schools through their taxes and then not utilising them?" You’re right, just about everything with VAT is double-taxed. However, this is for a service that the is a legal requirement, to send a child to school, and essentially, provided ‘free’ by the government with taxpayers money. If someone chooses to send their children to a school where they pay the fees themselves, whilst also contributing as a tax payer, to the government schools, isn’t it then ‘triple’ taxed? Miles | |||
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"I think if Labour want to level the playing field of education (which is a very laudable goal) then they should be doing it by raising the standards/funding in non private schools and not by looking to reduce standards/funding in private schools. No one benefits by making good schools poorer. We all benefit by making poor schools good. That’s how averages work and it would seem that Labour don’t understand basic maths." Agreed - thank you for capturing a valid point in my opinion so politely. | |||
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"Are private schools really a charity though in its truest sense? I believe they are help maintain the education gap between the poorest and richest, which I'm not in favour of. " They are considered charities because they provide education, which is deemed to be charitable. Miles | |||
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"Are private schools really a charity though in its truest sense? I believe they are help maintain the education gap between the poorest and richest, which I'm not in favour of. They are considered charities because they provide education, which is deemed to be charitable. Miles" I appreciate that, but really deep down do the majority place their children in these schools because it's a charitable cause? The majority do it because of the networks and opportunities they give their children. Which hats off to them is amazing. I occasionally teach at a private school, and it's just a different ball game to public schools. The reasources they have is phenomenal. I think perhaps if they are to maintain the charitable status they maybe should do outreach activities etc in their communities. | |||
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"Did you know that the children of high ranking military personnel and diplomats are paid for by the taxpayer to attend private schools, in 2017 private schools received £30,000 per child per annum under this subsidy. Whilst the average government subsidy for children in England and wales (attending state schools) was £6,000 The above subsidy for military and diplomatic personnel totalled £80M and £27M respectively. Isn’t a “charity” supposed to do “good works for the benefit of society”. As an aside " Do the rich get better resources and in the long run better opportunities to become, what's the term? Oh yeah richer | |||
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"Did you know that the children of high ranking military personnel and diplomats are paid for by the taxpayer to attend private schools, in 2017 private schools received £30,000 per child per annum under this subsidy. Whilst the average government subsidy for children in England and wales (attending state schools) was £6,000 The above subsidy for military and diplomatic personnel totalled £80M and £27M respectively. Isn’t a “charity” supposed to do “good works for the benefit of society”. As an aside Do the rich get better resources and in the long run better opportunities to become, what's the term? Oh yeah richer " Self fulfilling prophecy eh? The argument is that the children of said professions have to move around a lot due to their parents profession so this provides consistency in education. My argument would be that if the schools are “charities” then considering the service provided by the parents as being important for the country the places should be offered free, as a means of the schools giving back to society | |||
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"Did you know that the children of high ranking military personnel and diplomats are paid for by the taxpayer to attend private schools, in 2017 private schools received £30,000 per child per annum under this subsidy. Whilst the average government subsidy for children in England and wales (attending state schools) was £6,000 The above subsidy for military and diplomatic personnel totalled £80M and £27M respectively. Isn’t a “charity” supposed to do “good works for the benefit of society”. As an aside " That is job related and not a general subsidy. Many jobs also have this incentive, wherever it is in the World. It is also included as part of their income tax, payable to HMRC because it is a benefit-in-kind. | |||
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"Did you know that the children of high ranking military personnel and diplomats are paid for by the taxpayer to attend private schools, in 2017 private schools received £30,000 per child per annum under this subsidy. Whilst the average government subsidy for children in England and wales (attending state schools) was £6,000 The above subsidy for military and diplomatic personnel totalled £80M and £27M respectively. Isn’t a “charity” supposed to do “good works for the benefit of society”. As an aside Do the rich get better resources and in the long run better opportunities to become, what's the term? Oh yeah richer " It's a massive privilege to attend private school when you consider the bump it gives to careers progression and salary. Whether it's paying VAT or something else, I think private schools should contributing to public coffers. | |||
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"Are private schools really a charity though in its truest sense? I believe they are help maintain the education gap between the poorest and richest, which I'm not in favour of. They are considered charities because they provide education, which is deemed to be charitable. Miles I appreciate that, but really deep down do the majority place their children in these schools because it's a charitable cause? The majority do it because of the networks and opportunities they give their children. Which hats off to them is amazing. I occasionally teach at a private school, and it's just a different ball game to public schools. The reasources they have is phenomenal. I think perhaps if they are to maintain the charitable status they maybe should do outreach activities etc in their communities. " Many do. The ones I know of are very involved in their local communities and some invite local school children for activities like tuition and so on within the schools. | |||
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"Did you know that the children of high ranking military personnel and diplomats are paid for by the taxpayer to attend private schools, in 2017 private schools received £30,000 per child per annum under this subsidy. Whilst the average government subsidy for children in England and wales (attending state schools) was £6,000 The above subsidy for military and diplomatic personnel totalled £80M and £27M respectively. Isn’t a “charity” supposed to do “good works for the benefit of society”. As an aside That is job related and not a general subsidy. Many jobs also have this incentive, wherever it is in the World. It is also included as part of their income tax, payable to HMRC because it is a benefit-in-kind." https://amp.theguardian.com/education/2019/feb/05/critics-take-aim-at-subsidies-given-to-private-schools Can you put links in fab? If not please feel free to remove admin and ban me for a couple of days for being an ignoramus (state educated see  ) | |||
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"Are private schools really a charity though in its truest sense? I believe they are help maintain the education gap between the poorest and richest, which I'm not in favour of. " Private schools have charity status from offering bursaries to children who are high achievers but their parents could not afford the fees. My youngest had seven free years of free education and has just graduated with a first in medicine. It's not all about rich people. These schools offer opportunities for the much trumpeted "levelling up." | |||
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"Are private schools really a charity though in its truest sense? I believe they are help maintain the education gap between the poorest and richest, which I'm not in favour of. They are considered charities because they provide education, which is deemed to be charitable. Miles I appreciate that, but really deep down do the majority place their children in these schools because it's a charitable cause? The majority do it because of the networks and opportunities they give their children. Which hats off to them is amazing. I occasionally teach at a private school, and it's just a different ball game to public schools. The reasources they have is phenomenal. I think perhaps if they are to maintain the charitable status they maybe should do outreach activities etc in their communities. Many do. The ones I know of are very involved in their local communities and some invite local school children for activities like tuition and so on within the schools." In general, from my own experience they are when it benefits them. Which I guess is the way of the world for many. I don't see them opening up their computer labs to public schools. Donating their old ones yes. To me that is a big difference. | |||
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" https://amp.theguardian.com/education/2019/feb/05/critics-take-aim-at-subsidies-given-to-private-schools Can you put links in fab? If not please feel free to remove admin and ban me for a couple of days for being an ignoramus (state educated see ) "I think Guardian links are allowed. If it had been The Telegraph on the other hand…..  | |||
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"Are private schools really a charity though in its truest sense? I believe they are help maintain the education gap between the poorest and richest, which I'm not in favour of. Private schools have charity status from offering bursaries to children who are high achievers but their parents could not afford the fees. My youngest had seven free years of free education and has just graduated with a first in medicine. It's not all about rich people. These schools offer opportunities for the much trumpeted "levelling up." " My mate had one of those scholarships, his version was he was the tocken poor person (from a middle class family) and he hated it. And these scholarships are handed out to the brightest because it's the easy option and won't disrupt the fee paying students education. I'd be more impressed if they gave them to kids who really needed the extra help. | |||
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"I think if Labour want to level the playing field of education (which is a very laudable goal) then they should be doing it by raising the standards/funding in non private schools and not by looking to reduce standards/funding in private schools. No one benefits by making good schools poorer. We all benefit by making poor schools good. That’s how averages work and it would seem that Labour don’t understand basic maths.
Diane Abbott
"Priti Patel!!! | |||
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" https://amp.theguardian.com/education/2019/feb/05/critics-take-aim-at-subsidies-given-to-private-schools Can you put links in fab? If not please feel free to remove admin and ban me for a couple of days for being an ignoramus (state educated see )
I think Guardian links are allowed. If it had been The Telegraph on the other hand….. "Oh I don’t subscribe to any newspaper or leaning saved centrist myself. Read all. Know all. Make up own mind conscious of the bias one reads. is my rather long-winded motto | |||
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" In general, from my own experience they are when it benefits them. Which I guess is the way of the world for many. I don't see them opening up their computer labs to public schools. Donating their old ones yes. To me that is a big difference. " That’s true, perhaps. I don’t know about many of the schools but of the ones I know, they own and maintain vast tracts of land and properties that are open to public use for free. They also provide or contribute to local charities in other ways. | |||
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" In general, from my own experience they are when it benefits them. Which I guess is the way of the world for many. I don't see them opening up their computer labs to public schools. Donating their old ones yes. To me that is a big difference. That’s true, perhaps. I don’t know about many of the schools but of the ones I know, they own and maintain vast tracts of land and properties that are open to public use for free. They also provide or contribute to local charities in other ways." I guess my point is if they are educational charities. What are they doing to improve the education of the majority not just the minority? | |||
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"Are private schools really a charity though in its truest sense? I believe they are help maintain the education gap between the poorest and richest, which I'm not in favour of. Private schools have charity status from offering bursaries to children who are high achievers but their parents could not afford the fees. My youngest had seven free years of free education and has just graduated with a first in medicine. It's not all about rich people. These schools offer opportunities for the much trumpeted "levelling up." My mate had one of those scholarships, his version was he was the tocken poor person (from a middle class family) and he hated it. And these scholarships are handed out to the brightest because it's the easy option and won't disrupt the fee paying students education. I'd be more impressed if they gave them to kids who really needed the extra help. " Not at all, most pupils on a bursary are not the amongst the brightest in the schools that I know of. The Scholars of these schools are merely a matter of academic pride amongst former prep school students because they take a special scholarship exam for it. There is no financial benefit to it apart from the fact that they stay in a special part of the school and wear a distinctive gown. Pupils with bursaries need to be bright enough to pass the school’s general entrance exam only and be accepted like everyone else. They needn’t be Scholars who have taken the scholarship exam. Their parents are then means-tested as to how much bursary they can receive. | |||
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"Best education system in the world? Finland No private schools, no church schools, no academies, no specialist schools, no grammar schools. Just schools funded by the state. The massive inequality we see in the UK is based upon an outdated and discriminatory education system that favours the rich and establishment. I would ban private schools. " Good point. Singapore has one of the highest standards of education in the World. They do not allow their own citizens to attend private schools, which is mostly to serve the expat community. | |||
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" https://amp.theguardian.com/education/2019/feb/05/critics-take-aim-at-subsidies-given-to-private-schools Can you put links in fab? If not please feel free to remove admin and ban me for a couple of days for being an ignoramus (state educated see )
I think Guardian links are allowed. If it had been The Telegraph on the other hand…..
Oh I don’t subscribe to any newspaper or leaning saved centrist myself. Read all. Know all. Make up own mind conscious of the bias one reads. is my rather long-winded motto "Allow me to help shorten your motto: Ego sum omniscius 
At least your read all. I don’t even bother with any. | |||
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" https://amp.theguardian.com/education/2019/feb/05/critics-take-aim-at-subsidies-given-to-private-schools Can you put links in fab? If not please feel free to remove admin and ban me for a couple of days for being an ignoramus (state educated see )
I think Guardian links are allowed. If it had been The Telegraph on the other hand…..
Oh I don’t subscribe to any newspaper or leaning saved centrist myself. Read all. Know all. Make up own mind conscious of the bias one reads. is my rather long-winded motto
Allow me to help shorten your motto:
Ego sum omniscius
At least your read all. I don’t even bother with any."Now if I could just summon up a host of angels.. | |||
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" In general, from my own experience they are when it benefits them. Which I guess is the way of the world for many. I don't see them opening up their computer labs to public schools. Donating their old ones yes. To me that is a big difference. That’s true, perhaps. I don’t know about many of the schools but of the ones I know, they own and maintain vast tracts of land and properties that are open to public use for free. They also provide or contribute to local charities in other ways. I guess my point is if they are educational charities. What are they doing to improve the education of the majority not just the minority? " Do all charities provide to the majority? I know what you mean and I do understand it. I think it all boils down to the fact that they provide an education, which falls into the category of a charity for tax purposes. | |||
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"Are private schools really a charity though in its truest sense? I believe they are help maintain the education gap between the poorest and richest, which I'm not in favour of. Private schools have charity status from offering bursaries to children who are high achievers but their parents could not afford the fees. My youngest had seven free years of free education and has just graduated with a first in medicine. It's not all about rich people. These schools offer opportunities for the much trumpeted "levelling up." My mate had one of those scholarships, his version was he was the tocken poor person (from a middle class family) and he hated it. And these scholarships are handed out to the brightest because it's the easy option and won't disrupt the fee paying students education. I'd be more impressed if they gave them to kids who really needed the extra help. Not at all, most pupils on a bursary are not the amongst the brightest in the schools that I know of. The Scholars of these schools are merely a matter of academic pride amongst former prep school students because they take a special scholarship exam for it. There is no financial benefit to it apart from the fact that they stay in a special part of the school and wear a distinctive gown. Pupils with bursaries need to be bright enough to pass the school’s general entrance exam only and be accepted like everyone else. They needn’t be Scholars who have taken the scholarship exam. Their parents are then means-tested as to how much bursary they can receive." Sorry I'm an argumentative moo sometimes. I'm really passionate about increasing the levels of education and aspirations of socially deprived areas. What I've experienced is that what you say is true. But generally speaking it's the middle class households trying to improve their lot, which is cool. But are private schools really helping those in the most deprived areas? What are the bursary/scholarship uptake from the most deprived areas? It wouldn't occur to the majority to think of these kind of opportunities. I shelp my arse in my own time to try and engage these kids to aim higher and seek these opportunities. I've not seen a single private school do the same yet. | |||
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"It’s classed as a charity! Why? Tories doing everything to stop foreigners getting educated here and reducing the income. Remember coming out the eu so we could control VAT? Even though VAT in uk was higher then EU minimum and has not come down! Remember billions lost in ppe fraud and no work to get it back but hey, let’s look at benefit fraud ! Remember the privately educated Johnson who lied to get Brexit done and it’s not. Tories are taking the piss, assume voters are stupid and not even trying to hide it now. Sunak? Need oil as it’s easier to work with trade closer to home, while saying it’s a great trade deal to join a trade deal half way around the world while giving up trade deal in the same continent!! Oh…swinger site….get ya tits out!!!!! Ffs "
Be that as it may, do you think the VAT tax on the fees is fair? | |||
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" https://amp.theguardian.com/education/2019/feb/05/critics-take-aim-at-subsidies-given-to-private-schools Can you put links in fab? If not please feel free to remove admin and ban me for a couple of days for being an ignoramus (state educated see )
I think Guardian links are allowed. If it had been The Telegraph on the other hand…..
Oh I don’t subscribe to any newspaper or leaning saved centrist myself. Read all. Know all. Make up own mind conscious of the bias one reads. is my rather long-winded motto
Allow me to help shorten your motto:
Ego sum omniscius
At least your read all. I don’t even bother with any.
Now if I could just summon up a host of angels.."Have a few on me…  | |||
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" Sorry I'm an argumentative moo sometimes. I'm really passionate about increasing the levels of education and aspirations of socially deprived areas. What I've experienced is that what you say is true. But generally speaking it's the middle class households trying to improve their lot, which is cool. But are private schools really helping those in the most deprived areas? What are the bursary/scholarship uptake from the most deprived areas? It wouldn't occur to the majority to think of these kind of opportunities. I shelp my arse in my own time to try and engage these kids to aim higher and seek these opportunities. I've not seen a single private school do the same yet. " Not argumentative at all, I welcome your input. You’re absolutely right in that not many of those in more deprived circumstances know about the bursaries on offer or assume that their children need to be exceptionally bright to be considered. It was a parent with her son on a bursary that actually told me about it and how they qualified. Her son loves it and told me that he can’t believe he’s in the school on a 100% bursary. He got in on his own initiative when he saw the school choir on a tour in Northern Ireland and he went to the choir master and asked if he could audition. If you need more information about these opportunities, please don’t hesitate to contact me. Miles | |||
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" Sorry I'm an argumentative moo sometimes. I'm really passionate about increasing the levels of education and aspirations of socially deprived areas. What I've experienced is that what you say is true. But generally speaking it's the middle class households trying to improve their lot, which is cool. But are private schools really helping those in the most deprived areas? What are the bursary/scholarship uptake from the most deprived areas? It wouldn't occur to the majority to think of these kind of opportunities. I shelp my arse in my own time to try and engage these kids to aim higher and seek these opportunities. I've not seen a single private school do the same yet. Not argumentative at all, I welcome your input. You’re absolutely right in that not many of those in more deprived circumstances know about the bursaries on offer or assume that their children need to be exceptionally bright to be considered. It was a parent with her son on a bursary that actually told me about it and how they qualified. Her son loves it and told me that he can’t believe he’s in the school on a 100% bursary. He got in on his own initiative when he saw the school choir on a tour in Northern Ireland and he went to the choir master and asked if he could audition. If you need more information about these opportunities, please don’t hesitate to contact me. Miles " That's excellent well done your son. I just think these schools can and should do more to publisise these things. | |||
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"Best education system in the world? Finland No private schools, no church schools, no academies, no specialist schools, no grammar schools. Just schools funded by the state. The massive inequality we see in the UK is based upon an outdated and discriminatory education system that favours the rich and establishment. I would ban private schools. Good point. Singapore has one of the highest standards of education in the World. They do not allow their own citizens to attend private schools, which is mostly to serve the expat community." Thanks and yes Singapore too. Nice profile btw  | |||
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"………… Not argumentative at all, I welcome your input. You’re absolutely right in that not many of those in more deprived circumstances know about the bursaries on offer or assume that their children need to be exceptionally bright to be considered. It was a parent with her son on a bursary that actually told me about it and how they qualified. Her son loves it and told me that he can’t believe he’s in the school on a 100% bursary. He got in on his own initiative when he saw the school choir on a tour in Northern Ireland and he went to the choir master and asked if he could audition. If you need more information about these opportunities, please don’t hesitate to contact me. Miles That's excellent well done your son. I just think these schools can and should do more to publisise these things. " It wasn’t my son. It was a parent with her son at the school that told me about it. I wouldn’t have known about it otherwise and she didn’t either. Her son just happened to have seen that school’s choir performing and asked them how he could join them. You’re right in that the schools should do more to publicise it. State schools should be made more aware of it and could steer some of their students towards taking the ISEB exams that would ascertain whether the students could quality for the entrance exams. | |||
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"…… Thanks and yes Singapore too. Nice profile btw "Thank you. I’m just the support in the profile. She’s the star.
Miles | |||
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"Not quite, private schools only only have charitable status if the provide a public benefit. Merely providing education services is not sufficient to fulfil this requirement. To achieve public benefit private schools must provide additional services to the public, this is typically typically use of school facilities for state schools, charities, the public as well as bursaries for children whose parents can't afford the normal rates. Broadly I understand that if circa 7 percent of re revenue is spent on public benefit, only then is charitable status achieves. You could think of the public being equivalent to a tax. There are some private schools who provide no public benefit and simply pay corporation tax instead." Thanks for the clarification. That makes sense now. The schools I know of have vast tracts of land owned and maintained by them that is open to public use. They also maintain Grade 1 listed buildings of historic significance, which is very costly. They have regular drives for contribution from fee-paying parents towards their bursary fund. If VAT is imposed on the fees, it is likely to mean reduced contributions from fee paying parents towards the bursary fund and the fund itself being reduced from the cost of paying it. That means many children, who otherwise could have attended on a bursary would no longer be able to. As an example, parents who now contribute £10,000 to the bursary fund each year will have that completely taken up by the VAT, which would add that much to their child’s fee each year. Miles | |||
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"…… Thanks and yes Singapore too. Nice profile btw
Thank you. I’m just the support in the profile. She’s the star.
Miles"And there would be no starlight without that energy which makes it heat up and shine 
Ps. I knew someone from Newton Abbot.. heh. Lucky you with Dartmoor on the step | |||
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