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"Are we talking about street urination here or have I missed the point? " People trying to mark their territory on others.... | |||
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"Are we talking about street urination here or have I missed the point? People trying to mark their territory on others.... " So women don't really forget or lose their earrings when they stay over? Is that what you're saying | |||
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"Are we talking about street urination here or have I missed the point? People trying to mark their territory on others.... Is this a private life thing or forums in general. Sorry if I'm being a bit dense. I did Google it but got a story about a city centre street light being corroded by urine ffs. " People maybe overly overtly flirting to let everyone know that the person is theirs! Happens Lots on here and mostly people care because it leads to drama or sometimes monogamous jealous thoughts. | |||
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"Are we talking about street urination here or have I missed the point? People trying to mark their territory on others.... Is this a private life thing or forums in general. Sorry if I'm being a bit dense. I did Google it but got a story about a city centre street light being corroded by urine ffs. People maybe overly overtly flirting to let everyone know that the person is theirs! Happens Lots on here and mostly people care because it leads to drama or sometimes monogamous jealous thoughts. " Ohhhh, I get it now. Like when I tread is dry then a certain person posts on it and all of a sudden it springs to life with back and forth in jokes, Or have I missed the point again? | |||
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"It happens all the time. You can see just from reading the threads...who is almost staking their claim on who...or is it whom " I must be really thick as I've no idea who's doing who. | |||
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"It's more the "flirting with people and someone going full in and trying to claim their territory and making it a horrible situation" thing " Oh, I don't really see that. | |||
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"I just see it as flirting, or god help me "banter". " Yassssss!!! Me too!!! But why do some people feel the need to 'claim'?? Someone and try bat anyone else off that may be interested??? | |||
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"It happens all the time. You can see just from reading the threads...who is almost staking their claim on who...or is it whom I must be really thick as I've no idea who's doing who. " I have a list. | |||
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"I just see it as flirting, or god help me "banter". " Me too. And I'll forum flirt or 'banter' and think everyone else sees at as just that. But clearly some don't. | |||
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"It happens all the time. You can see just from reading the threads...who is almost staking their claim on who...or is it whom I must be really thick as I've no idea who's doing who. I have a list." Now I'm hearing "mambo number 5" in my head | |||
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"It happens all the time. You can see just from reading the threads...who is almost staking their claim on who...or is it whom I must be really thick as I've no idea who's doing who. " Oh nor me either...but some are a little more obvious than others | |||
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"Most of the time it's just flirting. Two people enjoying bouncing off each other's energy. Yeah sure, sometimes they're fucking each other. Sometimes they just enjoy the attention. I don't mind it when it's like that. If it's someone giving strong "hands off, this person is mine" energy, fuck that." Exactly what I'm saying!!! Thankbyou for putting it into words! X | |||
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"Are we talking about street urination here or have I missed the point? People trying to mark their territory on others.... Is this a private life thing or forums in general. Sorry if I'm being a bit dense. I did Google it but got a story about a city centre street light being corroded by urine ffs. People maybe overly overtly flirting to let everyone know that the person is theirs! Happens Lots on here and mostly people care because it leads to drama or sometimes monogamous jealous thoughts. Ohhhh, I get it now. Like when I tread is dry then a certain person posts on it and all of a sudden it springs to life with back and forth in jokes, Or have I missed the point again? " Just to be clear, I was talking about pissing on street furniture. | |||
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"I can't say I have seen any particular lamp post pissing in terms of attempting to claim. Other than me with Drama. Otherwise it's just flirting and 99% of the flirting is just talk I imagine. Any actual flirting with intent will be done privately. At least with me it is. Christ, as a man can you imagine the effort and bother it would be to try and "claim" one of the women on here... good luck guys! You can have her if that's the case. Whomever she may be. " Not when it's actually come to ... *almost hate mail* due to you conversing with others and they're not involved? I dunno.... been on and off here 14 odd years and seen a lot, but first time it's happened personally and first time I've chosen to hide profile, due to the toxicity and the "heaviness" of the situation we are all individuals, nobody owns anyone else, just seen it as quite saddening, really | |||
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"I can't say I have seen any particular lamp post pissing in terms of attempting to claim. Other than me with Drama. Otherwise it's just flirting and 99% of the flirting is just talk I imagine. Any actual flirting with intent will be done privately. At least with me it is. Christ, as a man can you imagine the effort and bother it would be to try and "claim" one of the women on here... good luck guys! You can have her if that's the case. Whomever she may be. Not when it's actually come to ... *almost hate mail* due to you conversing with others and they're not involved? I dunno.... been on and off here 14 odd years and seen a lot, but first time it's happened personally and first time I've chosen to hide profile, due to the toxicity and the "heaviness" of the situation we are all individuals, nobody owns anyone else, just seen it as quite saddening, really " I'm so sorry thats happened to you thats horrible. Just block and ignore them as best you can, I can understand it getting to you though, some people are just toxic. | |||
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"I can't say I have seen any particular lamp post pissing in terms of attempting to claim. Other than me with Drama. Otherwise it's just flirting and 99% of the flirting is just talk I imagine. Any actual flirting with intent will be done privately. At least with me it is. Christ, as a man can you imagine the effort and bother it would be to try and "claim" one of the women on here... good luck guys! You can have her if that's the case. Whomever she may be. Not when it's actually come to ... *almost hate mail* due to you conversing with others and they're not involved? I dunno.... been on and off here 14 odd years and seen a lot, but first time it's happened personally and first time I've chosen to hide profile, due to the toxicity and the "heaviness" of the situation we are all individuals, nobody owns anyone else, just seen it as quite saddening, really " Lilith does thst to me, all over DF. Seriously though, in private, that is even worse. But makes sense why not as many witness the kind of LPP you are talking about. As a whole that shit will definitely not be shared as the way to go by the majority on here. | |||
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"I can't say I have seen any particular lamp post pissing in terms of attempting to claim. Other than me with Drama. Otherwise it's just flirting and 99% of the flirting is just talk I imagine. Any actual flirting with intent will be done privately. At least with me it is. Christ, as a man can you imagine the effort and bother it would be to try and "claim" one of the women on here... good luck guys! You can have her if that's the case. Whomever she may be. Not when it's actually come to ... *almost hate mail* due to you conversing with others and they're not involved? I dunno.... been on and off here 14 odd years and seen a lot, but first time it's happened personally and first time I've chosen to hide profile, due to the toxicity and the "heaviness" of the situation we are all individuals, nobody owns anyone else, just seen it as quite saddening, really " I'm sorry it's come to that. At least they're telling you that they're unworthy of your attention and you should block them? | |||
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"I’ve never seen any claiming going on, just some harmless flirting. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. " how do you ‘claim’ someone in swinging site? It’s just flirting in public isn’t it? If anyone has claimed me…please let me know!! | |||
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"I’ve never seen any claiming going on, just some harmless flirting. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. how do you ‘claim’ someone in swinging site? It’s just flirting in public isn’t it? If anyone has claimed me…please let me know!! " Can someone please claim all the lost baggage? | |||
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"Why?? *sad and grumpy face* why does this still happen?? Why do people do it?? Hayllllp me here? " We'll talk about it later. During or very long facetime we've got planned for tonight. Everyone else forget about it, kat is mine. Mine I tell you. | |||
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"I’ve never seen any claiming going on, just some harmless flirting. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. how do you ‘claim’ someone in swinging site? It’s just flirting in public isn’t it? If anyone has claimed me…please let me know!! Can someone please claim all the lost baggage? " … and be careful, my zip is broken and opens when you put your hands on me. | |||
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"I can't say I have seen any particular lamp post pissing in terms of attempting to claim. Other than me with Drama. Otherwise it's just flirting and 99% of the flirting is just talk I imagine. Any actual flirting with intent will be done privately. At least with me it is. Christ, as a man can you imagine the effort and bother it would be to try and "claim" one of the women on here... good luck guys! You can have her if that's the case. Whomever she may be. Not when it's actually come to ... *almost hate mail* due to you conversing with others and they're not involved? I dunno.... been on and off here 14 odd years and seen a lot, but first time it's happened personally and first time I've chosen to hide profile, due to the toxicity and the "heaviness" of the situation we are all individuals, nobody owns anyone else, just seen it as quite saddening, really " I'd be tempted to act immature and tell them to get a life. What's his opinion on it all? | |||
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"I can't say I have seen any particular lamp post pissing in terms of attempting to claim. Other than me with Drama. Otherwise it's just flirting and 99% of the flirting is just talk I imagine. Any actual flirting with intent will be done privately. At least with me it is. Christ, as a man can you imagine the effort and bother it would be to try and "claim" one of the women on here... good luck guys! You can have her if that's the case. Whomever she may be. Not when it's actually come to ... *almost hate mail* due to you conversing with others and they're not involved? I dunno.... been on and off here 14 odd years and seen a lot, but first time it's happened personally and first time I've chosen to hide profile, due to the toxicity and the "heaviness" of the situation we are all individuals, nobody owns anyone else, just seen it as quite saddening, really I'd be tempted to act immature and tell them to get a life. What's his opinion on it all?" I may have acted just this way in the past! | |||
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"FAF? Anyone? Mine " Umm no. Mine | |||
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"It happens all the time. You can see just from reading the threads...who is almost staking their claim on who...or is it whom I must be really thick as I've no idea who's doing who. I have a list." Am I on it? Does anyone really want me | |||
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"FAF? Anyone? Mine Umm no. Mine" Mine... | |||
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"FAF? Anyone? Mine Umm no. Mine Mine..." No mi....oh actually no you can have him. | |||
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"I can't say I have seen any particular lamp post pissing in terms of attempting to claim. Other than me with Drama. Otherwise it's just flirting and 99% of the flirting is just talk I imagine. Any actual flirting with intent will be done privately. At least with me it is. Christ, as a man can you imagine the effort and bother it would be to try and "claim" one of the women on here... good luck guys! You can have her if that's the case. Whomever she may be. Not when it's actually come to ... *almost hate mail* due to you conversing with others and they're not involved? I dunno.... been on and off here 14 odd years and seen a lot, but first time it's happened personally and first time I've chosen to hide profile, due to the toxicity and the "heaviness" of the situation we are all individuals, nobody owns anyone else, just seen it as quite saddening, really I'd be tempted to act immature and tell them to get a life. What's his opinion on it all? I may have acted just this way in the past! " I doubt I'll ever be involved in anything like that, but it wouldn't upset me. I'm a sharer, and if they aren't that's their problem. If he would prefer their company, crack on. | |||
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"I can't say I have seen any particular lamp post pissing in terms of attempting to claim. Other than me with Drama. Otherwise it's just flirting and 99% of the flirting is just talk I imagine. Any actual flirting with intent will be done privately. At least with me it is. Christ, as a man can you imagine the effort and bother it would be to try and "claim" one of the women on here... good luck guys! You can have her if that's the case. Whomever she may be. Not when it's actually come to ... *almost hate mail* due to you conversing with others and they're not involved? I dunno.... been on and off here 14 odd years and seen a lot, but first time it's happened personally and first time I've chosen to hide profile, due to the toxicity and the "heaviness" of the situation we are all individuals, nobody owns anyone else, just seen it as quite saddening, really I'd be tempted to act immature and tell them to get a life. What's his opinion on it all? I may have acted just this way in the past! I doubt I'll ever be involved in anything like that, but it wouldn't upset me. I'm a sharer, and if they aren't that's their problem. If he would prefer their company, crack on." It's good to share!! | |||
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"FAF? Anyone? Mine Umm no. Mine Mine... No mi....oh actually no you can have him. " What?? Fuck, I thought we were fighting over you I retract my offer! | |||
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"I’ve never seen any claiming going on, just some harmless flirting. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. how do you ‘claim’ someone in swinging site? It’s just flirting in public isn’t it? If anyone has claimed me…please let me know!! Can someone please claim all the lost baggage? " There isn't a soul on earth who could deal with that much lost baggage | |||
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"I’ve never seen any claiming going on, just some harmless flirting. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. how do you ‘claim’ someone in swinging site? It’s just flirting in public isn’t it? If anyone has claimed me…please let me know!! " They become overly attached, then get jealous when someone else tries to flirt with them. Resulting in the other person receiving abuse for it which is a really shitty thing to do. | |||
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"I want to take you all, just bundle up in a huge furry, hormone fuelled pule and just do really bad things to you all....with my tongue... If I have permission, that is That's it!! Mass orgy in the making. Can I have Lileth to the front please? And a few others, in fact, fight the queue order, I'm 'avin' you all.... just someone get the water and baby wipes on tap, please? " This escalated Sounds hot, I’m in. | |||
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"I’ve never seen any claiming going on, just some harmless flirting. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. how do you ‘claim’ someone in swinging site? It’s just flirting in public isn’t it? If anyone has claimed me…please let me know!! Can someone please claim all the lost baggage? There isn't a soul on earth who could deal with that much lost baggage " Harsh. | |||
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"I wouldn't call any of it LPP. Some people have inside jokes and they like to throw it around the forums. Some people like to just bug their victims.. Hello DF and Brucey F" Die | |||
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"I’ve never seen any claiming going on, just some harmless flirting. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. how do you ‘claim’ someone in swinging site? It’s just flirting in public isn’t it? If anyone has claimed me…please let me know!! They become overly attached, then get jealous when someone else tries to flirt with them. Resulting in the other person receiving abuse for it which is a really shitty thing to do. " Absolutely. I’ve never been a victim. But I do flirt on the forums, and I always thought that was what people referred to as LPP | |||
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"Are we talking about street urination here or have I missed the point? People trying to mark their territory on others.... So women don't really forget or lose their earrings when they stay over? Is that what you're saying" I tried it with cardigans, and lost a lot of cardigans | |||
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"I’ve never seen any claiming going on, just some harmless flirting. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. how do you ‘claim’ someone in swinging site? It’s just flirting in public isn’t it? If anyone has claimed me…please let me know!! Can someone please claim all the lost baggage? There isn't a soul on earth who could deal with that much lost baggage Harsh. " I didn't mean yours... you've barely a wallet full, darling | |||
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"I’ve never seen any claiming going on, just some harmless flirting. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. how do you ‘claim’ someone in swinging site? It’s just flirting in public isn’t it? If anyone has claimed me…please let me know!! Can someone please claim all the lost baggage? There isn't a soul on earth who could deal with that much lost baggage Harsh. I didn't mean yours... you've barely a wallet full, darling " And no money to spend !.. *cries. | |||
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"I’ve never seen any claiming going on, just some harmless flirting. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. how do you ‘claim’ someone in swinging site? It’s just flirting in public isn’t it? If anyone has claimed me…please let me know!! They become overly attached, then get jealous when someone else tries to flirt with them. Resulting in the other person receiving abuse for it which is a really shitty thing to do. Absolutely. I’ve never been a victim. But I do flirt on the forums, and I always thought that was what people referred to as LPP " To be fair I thought that’s what it was too. | |||
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"I’ve never seen any claiming going on, just some harmless flirting. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. how do you ‘claim’ someone in swinging site? It’s just flirting in public isn’t it? If anyone has claimed me…please let me know!! Can someone please claim all the lost baggage? There isn't a soul on earth who could deal with that much lost baggage Harsh. I didn't mean yours... you've barely a wallet full, darling And no money to spend !.. *cries. " I feel you, Woody. I feel you | |||
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"I think, excepting cases where it has been expressly expressed in public or private, sometimes people see lamppost pissing where there is just flirting. Sometimes not. As long as it isn't intended to hurt anyone else, flirting is glorious, and I love to see it." NO ONE is allowed to respond to this post than me? Ok? I claim Posh and now own her! | |||
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"Why?? *sad and grumpy face* why does this still happen?? Why do people do it?? Hayllllp me here? " I've never noticed it | |||
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"I think, excepting cases where it has been expressly expressed in public or private, sometimes people see lamppost pissing where there is just flirting. Sometimes not. As long as it isn't intended to hurt anyone else, flirting is glorious, and I love to see it. NO ONE is allowed to respond to this post than me? Ok? I claim Posh and now own her! " And Woody. Im claiming Woody too | |||
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"Have you heard of post lamp pissing? When one doesn't meet that person anymore but has still "claims"? Tones" Too much pissing going on now. | |||
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"Have you heard of post lamp pissing? When one doesn't meet that person anymore but has still "claims"? Tones Too much pissing going on now." I need an umbrella pic. Thanks for being a muse | |||
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"I think, excepting cases where it has been expressly expressed in public or private, sometimes people see lamppost pissing where there is just flirting. Sometimes not. As long as it isn't intended to hurt anyone else, flirting is glorious, and I love to see it. NO ONE is allowed to respond to this post than me? Ok? I claim Posh and now own her! " Well... obvs. | |||
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"Why?? *sad and grumpy face* why does this still happen?? Why do people do it?? Hayllllp me here? I've never noticed it " I too am blissfully ignorant of this. | |||
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"Have you heard of post lamp pissing? When one doesn't meet that person anymore but has still "claims"? Tones Too much pissing going on now." I wish …. | |||
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"Nobody ever does it over me! " You’d hate it! | |||
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"Nobody ever does it over me! You’d hate it! " No I wouldn't. It's attention on me? Check! The pissing is between too other people? Check! I can sit back and not actually get involved without any effort on my part? Check! | |||
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"TL;DR. Who wants claimed?" You can have anyone except Drama, or me. | |||
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"Have you heard of post lamp pissing? When one doesn't meet that person anymore but has still "claims"? Tones Too much pissing going on now. I wish …. " No woody..just no. | |||
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"There’s also the ‘reverse’ lamp-posting; when someone marks themself by making it obvious who they’re having sex with, on the assumption that it boosts their own status somehow. Miles" I had "dates" with two gents from the forums. Both left the site shortly afterwards. I still maintain it was coincidental | |||
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"TL;DR. Who wants claimed? You can have anyone except Drama, or me. " I’ll take all of them. I’ll be like Gru with loads of minions. | |||
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"TL;DR. Who wants claimed? Ah go on then." Do you come with a receipt? | |||
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"Why?? *sad and grumpy face* why does this still happen?? Why do people do it?? Hayllllp me here? " cos we're in the city and can't find a tree... | |||
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"TL;DR. Who wants claimed? You can have anyone except Drama, or me. " Or me. I'm Jennie's | |||
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"TL;DR. Who wants claimed? Ah go on then. Do you come with a receipt?" No. Nobody wants her back after the first time! | |||
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"TL;DR. Who wants claimed? You can have anyone except Drama, or me. Or me. I'm Jennie's" What if Jennie is mine? | |||
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"Are we talking about street urination here or have I missed the point? People trying to mark their territory on others.... Is this a private life thing or forums in general. Sorry if I'm being a bit dense. I did Google it but got a story about a city centre street light being corroded by urine ffs. " how did they manage to get the urine up that high? catapult? either that or he's 10% man and 90% penis... | |||
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"TL;DR. Who wants claimed? Ah go on then. Do you come with a receipt? No. Nobody wants her back after the first time! " I’d be happy to take her from the end of September and give her back in like March or something. | |||
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"TL;DR. Who wants claimed? Ah go on then. Do you come with a receipt? No. Nobody wants her back after the first time! I’d be happy to take her from the end of September and give her back in like March or something." Aww you get me at my best! Lucky you. | |||
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"TL;DR. Who wants claimed? Ah go on then. Do you come with a receipt? No. Nobody wants her back after the first time! " Harsh but true. | |||
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"TL;DR. Who wants claimed? Ah go on then. Do you come with a receipt? No. Nobody wants her back after the first time! I’d be happy to take her from the end of September and give her back in like March or something." Like a time-share? Part time custody seems too official. Though maybe more accurate. | |||
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"TL;DR. Who wants claimed? Ah go on then. Do you come with a receipt? No. Nobody wants her back after the first time! I’d be happy to take her from the end of September and give her back in like March or something. Aww you get me at my best! Lucky you." Ghost walks and pube baubles. You have to shave your legs though. | |||
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"TL;DR. Who wants claimed? Ah go on then. Do you come with a receipt? No. Nobody wants her back after the first time! I’d be happy to take her from the end of September and give her back in like March or something. Like a time-share? Part time custody seems too official. Though maybe more accurate. " We can design an app that counts down until we get rid of her. | |||
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"TL;DR. Who wants claimed? You can have anyone except Drama, or me. Or me. I'm Jennie's What if Jennie is mine?" Ooh that could create an interesting feedback loop! | |||
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"Most of the time it's just flirting. Two people enjoying bouncing off each other's energy. Yeah sure, sometimes they're fucking each other. Sometimes they just enjoy the attention. I don't mind it when it's like that. If it's someone giving strong "hands off, this person is mine" energy, fuck that. Exactly what I'm saying!!! Thankbyou for putting it into words! X" Ah any time, I hope you're doing okay OP, x There's a marked difference to what you've sadly experienced and people just having a flirt and a laugh. If there could be less of the former, more of the latter that would be great but Fab isn't a Utopia, as much as it would be wonderful if it was. | |||
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"TL;DR. Who wants claimed? Ah go on then. Do you come with a receipt? No. Nobody wants her back after the first time! I’d be happy to take her from the end of September and give her back in like March or something. Like a time-share? Part time custody seems too official. Though maybe more accurate. We can design an app that counts down until we get rid of her." I like your thinking! It's like Christmas! But better. | |||
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"I wouldn't call any of it LPP. Some people have inside jokes and they like to throw it around the forums. Some people like to just bug their victims.. Hello DF and Brucey F Die" Once I've accomplished my dream. F | |||
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"TL;DR. Who wants claimed? You can have anyone except Drama, or me. Or me. I'm Jennie's What if Jennie is mine? Ooh that could create an interesting feedback loop! " Consider your lamppost pissed on | |||
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"TL;DR. Who wants claimed? Ah go on then. Do you come with a receipt? No. Nobody wants her back after the first time! I’d be happy to take her from the end of September and give her back in like March or something. Like a time-share? Part time custody seems too official. Though maybe more accurate. We can design an app that counts down until we get rid of her. I like your thinking! It's like Christmas! But better. " | |||
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"It’s not as bad as it was 8 years ago!!! " Thats when you two got together! | |||
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"TL;DR. Who wants claimed? Ah go on then. Do you come with a receipt? No. Nobody wants her back after the first time! I’d be happy to take her from the end of September and give her back in like March or something. Like a time-share? Part time custody seems too official. Though maybe more accurate. We can design an app that counts down until we get rid of her. I like your thinking! It's like Christmas! But better. " Erm... | |||
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"TL;DR. Who wants claimed? Ah go on then. Do you come with a receipt? No. Nobody wants her back after the first time! I’d be happy to take her from the end of September and give her back in like March or something. Like a time-share? Part time custody seems too official. Though maybe more accurate. We can design an app that counts down until we get rid of her. I like your thinking! It's like Christmas! But better. Erm... " You've got a thing for santa? shame on you, at least don't wear him out the week before christmas. | |||
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"TL;DR. Who wants claimed? Ah go on then. Do you come with a receipt? No. Nobody wants her back after the first time! I’d be happy to take her from the end of September and give her back in like March or something. Like a time-share? Part time custody seems too official. Though maybe more accurate. We can design an app that counts down until we get rid of her. I like your thinking! It's like Christmas! But better. Erm... " We’ve made arrangement for the next year of your life. You’re welcome | |||
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"I'll get me coat " You won't need it. It's warm out there F | |||
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"I'll get me coat You won't need it. It's warm out there F" Phew. Good job I have extra padding too. | |||
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"TL;DR. Who wants claimed?" Eww no | |||
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"TL;DR. Who wants claimed? You can have anyone except Drama, or me. Or me. I'm Jennie's What if Jennie is mine? Ooh that could create an interesting feedback loop! Consider your lamppost pissed on " Ooh. Hang on. If I'm Jennie's and Jennie is yours... I'm kinda also yours. | |||
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"TL;DR. Who wants claimed? You can have anyone except Drama, or me. Or me. I'm Jennie's What if Jennie is mine? Ooh that could create an interesting feedback loop! Consider your lamppost pissed on Ooh. Hang on. If I'm Jennie's and Jennie is yours... I'm kinda also yours." This thread is proving quite successful for me | |||
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"TL;DR. Who wants claimed? Eww no Worth a try " | |||
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"It’s not as bad as it was 8 years ago!!! Thats when you two got together! " It was!! But you’ll remember just how bad the lamppost pissing was | |||
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"There’s also the ‘reverse’ lamp-posting; when someone marks themself by making it obvious who they’re having sex with, on the assumption that it boosts their own status somehow. Miles" This is now becoming too complicated. Reminds me of a dream within a dream | |||
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"Most of the time it's just flirting. Two people enjoying bouncing off each other's energy. Yeah sure, sometimes they're fucking each other. Sometimes they just enjoy the attention. I don't mind it when it's like that. If it's someone giving strong "hands off, this person is mine" energy, fuck that." Exactly this | |||
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