FabSwingers.com forum: Women sentenced

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Watching Jeremy vine earlier and they were discussing the sentencing of the lady who aborted at 32 wks tragic but she did break the law. but should she have been sentenced obviously there is more to the poor case quite a few especially women were saying it's not long enough.i do think it's correct especially as one as said if her partner had say pushed when he found out and they baby died he would have been sentenced to a lot longer.

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By *agerMorganMan
over a year ago

Canvey Island

I think the law is wrong on this, and certainly a custodial sentence isn’t warranted.

But the line is this; not my body, not my choice what someone does.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

32 weeks?!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"32 weeks?! "

Between 32 and 34 apparrently

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm pro choice but at that stage it's no longer just her body. She was carrying a healthy viable baby and she lied and the baby died a tragic death. I understand she might not have been thinking straight but it wasn't the right thing to do.

I do agree with her being sentenced. We can't let this become something that's OK to do. I think the line has to be drawn somewhere and at that point the baby could be born and live a fulfilling and healthy life. It's heartbreaking.

It's kind of similar to that girl who gave birth to a baby a few months ago and just threw the baby in the bin wrapped up in a plastic bag. It's unimaginable.

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By *apybarasCouple
over a year ago

High Lighthouse!

For me the bigger issue is that abortion is still a criminal offence.

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By *parkle1974Woman
over a year ago

Leeds

I think it's disgusting and she deserves everything she gets.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"32 weeks?!

Between 32 and 34 apparrently"

Wow.

No comment because I’m a man and I’ve never carried a child and I’m pro choice obvs. That’s just like, I dunno it did just make me feel sad? I don’t know why?

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By *offiaCoolWoman
over a year ago

Kidsgrove

Did someone perform the abortion ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Did someone perform the abortion ?"
pills apparently ?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"For me the bigger issue is that abortion is still a criminal offence."
but as I believe it's only criminal after a certain time so technically she broke the law there is no winner's but the law is the law.

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By *agerMorganMan
over a year ago

Canvey Island

"Did someone perform the abortion ?"

No, she took a pill which induced the abortion. Was bought online

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Did someone perform the abortion ?"

She took the pills. She told them she was 10 weeks. I think this then induced labour, she gave birth but then the baby died. I think that's what happened.

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By *offiaCoolWoman
over a year ago

Kidsgrove

"Did someone perform the abortion ?

No, she took a pill which induced the abortion. Was bought online"

Ah right, my question was going to be is the person who performed the abortion more accountable. I didn't realise pills would work at that point.

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By *inkyycurvyyWoman
over a year ago

Manchester

What she did was wrong at that point in a pregnancy, but I think the circumstances of the case were mitigating and a custodial sentence wasn't necessary except for as some sort of deterrent (which is proven doesn't work) to other women. And I think the likelihood of other women doing the same thing is extremely slight.

This woman has had to give birth to a dead baby on her own, she has to live with that and it will probably haunt her for the rest of her life, and she has 3 other children that will go without a mother for at least a year. I think all things considered, punishment other than a custodial sentence would have been more appropriate in this case.

I very much doubt that more leniency in this case would have opened the floodgates for a deluge of women illegally aborting babies over 24 weeks

I think to argue that is wilfully obtuse.

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By *andyfloss2000Woman
over a year ago

ashford

No she shouldn't have had a custodial sentence! None of us know how her mental health was at this time! X

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By *exy Pretty FeetCouple
over a year ago

Live in Scotland Play in England

Having been on the other side watching and hoping for my baby born at 25 weeks to survive I totally understand why there has to be a law setting strict conditions for abortions beyond a limit. Given we've seen babies survive from 21-23 weeks in some cases, that limit is already questionable and has been for over 15 years.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"What she did was wrong at that point in a pregnancy, but I think the circumstances of the case were mitigating and a custodial sentence wasn't necessary except for as some sort of deterrent (which is proven doesn't work) to other women. And I think the likelihood of other women doing the same thing is extremely slight.

I very much doubt that more leniency in this case would have opened the floodgates for a deluge of women illegally aborting babies over 24 weeks

I think to argue that is wilfully obtuse. "
there is another case going to the courts soon.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm pro choice but at that stage it's no longer just her body. She was carrying a healthy viable baby and she lied and the baby died a tragic death. I understand she might not have been thinking straight but it wasn't the right thing to do.

It's kind of similar to that girl who gave birth to a baby a few months ago and just threw the baby in the bin wrapped up in a plastic bag. It's unimaginable."

I agree 100%

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By *agerMorganMan
over a year ago

Canvey Island

"Did someone perform the abortion ?

No, she took a pill which induced the abortion. Was bought online

Ah right, my question was going to be is the person who performed the abortion more accountable. I didn't realise pills would work at that point."

I think if it were performed by a person then both sides would be held accountable, with the medic being struck off.

Either way, it’s a tragic event.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 13/06/23 14:21:39]

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By *idnight RamblerMan
over a year ago

Pershore

All for women's rights, and freedom of choice. But at 32 weeks we are talking about another human being. Babies can survive outside the womb at 24 weeks, and younger in a few instances. Suffice to say this is an emotive topic, but in my book the sentence is fully justified in this instance.

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By *ilthyRacersCouple
over a year ago

Coventry

"Did someone perform the abortion ?

No, she took a pill which induced the abortion. Was bought online"

She didn’t buy the pills online. Prescription by post without actually seeing anyone, discussing mental health or having a scan is what happened during lockdown.

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By *oggoneMan
over a year ago

Derry

"No she shouldn't have had a custodial sentence! None of us know how her mental health was at this time! X"

I'm not going to say anything about the sentence but she doesn't sound well. This will be off the headlines tomorrow. She will have to live with it for the rest of her life.

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By *agerMorganMan
over a year ago

Canvey Island

"Did someone perform the abortion ?

No, she took a pill which induced the abortion. Was bought online

She didn’t buy the pills online. Prescription by post without actually seeing anyone, discussing mental health or having a scan is what happened during lockdown. "

Ah ok, I read somewhere she had bought them online rather than prescription by post. Thank you for clearing that up.

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By *aggonerMan
over a year ago

for a penny

What’s wrong here is not whether or not it’s legal. The issue is that she took desperate measures and is in need of psychological care, not prison.

People don’t do these things lightly. Whatever her motives, she needs help. To make her go through criminal proceedings in her state of mind is wrong.

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By *offiaCoolWoman
over a year ago

Kidsgrove

"Did someone perform the abortion ?

No, she took a pill which induced the abortion. Was bought online

She didn’t buy the pills online. Prescription by post without actually seeing anyone, discussing mental health or having a scan is what happened during lockdown. "

Apparently she used a pregnancy clinic and got a prescription after lying about how far gone she was, claiming she was around 7 weeks. Because of lockdown the assessment was not done face to face. Her internet search history showed she had been searching for months on how to hide a pregnancy bump, how to abort a baby at 6 months etc.

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By *aximus74Woman
over a year ago

Manchester

Totally agree with this... the baby could have gone to a loving family

It's kind of similar to that girl who gave birth to a baby a few months ago and just threw the baby in the bin wrapped up in a plastic bag. It's unimaginable."

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By *issIrishCoffeeWoman
over a year ago

Bristol

"What’s wrong here is not whether or not it’s legal. The issue is that she took desperate measures and is in need of psychological care, not prison.

People don’t do these things lightly. Whatever her motives, she needs help. To make her go through criminal proceedings in her state of mind is wrong. "

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By *aximus74Woman
over a year ago

Manchester

"For me the bigger issue is that abortion is still a criminal offence."

It isn't up until so many weeks (can't remember how far along) but this lady was in the 8th month of pregnancy..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Between 32 and 34 weeks, it's a baby. If it was born at those times it would likely survive without much medical intervention.

If it was medically nessisary then whatever.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

She broke the law...and I totally understand people's comments. But can anyone seriously say a custodial sentance is in anyone's best interests here.

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By *oggoneMan
over a year ago

Derry

"What’s wrong here is not whether or not it’s legal. The issue is that she took desperate measures and is in need of psychological care, not prison.

People don’t do these things lightly. Whatever her motives, she needs help. To make her go through criminal proceedings in her state of mind is wrong.

I'm not in favour of censorship but is this really front page news. Its a tragedy but not convinced how newsworthy it is

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By *oggoneMan
over a year ago

Derry

"She broke the law...and I totally understand people's comments. But can anyone seriously say a custodial sentance is in anyone's best interests here.

The law is blind and supposedly applied equally to all. I'm more critical of the PPS than the judge. Once the charge is made, the wheels are in motion

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By *MisschiefxTV/TS
over a year ago

London

I think the first thing to keep in mind is that unless you have been in this situation, you don't understand the situation. But that's never stopped most people from freely judging in a way they wouldn't want to be judged in.

I don't know the case, but I'm very pro choice. I can't imagine how weird it must be to have something growing inside you. Combined with the dread and stress of raising another human for the rest of your life and knowing we live in a very unsupportive society, I don't understand why anyone would have kids.

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By *MisschiefxTV/TS
over a year ago

London

And as for the law. Just because something is law doesn't mean it's right, fair and moral.

Laws are made by flawed humans.

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By *aucasian GhandiMan
over a year ago

from my dad's left nut (Warwick)

"I think it's disgusting and she deserves everything she gets."

Bit black and white isn't it

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By *lay 4 your plessureMan
over a year ago

Wigan

From what I have read, the judge stated the custodial sentence was given because it was his duty to apply the law as it stands and that it's is up to parliament to look at those laws. He also stated that if she had pleaded guilty at an earlier stage in the procedings he may have been able to have suspended her sentence.

All in all, it's just a very tragic case no matter what opinions you have on it.

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By *ehindHerEyesCouple
over a year ago

SomewhereOnlyWeKnow

The only comment as I’m going to make as I don’t have enough information on the case is that I sincerely hope that she gets the help she needs

Marc

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By *melie LALWoman
over a year ago

Peterborough

I have to agree

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"For me the bigger issue is that abortion is still a criminal offence. but as I believe it's only criminal after a certain time so technically she broke the law there is no winner's but the law is the law."

Laws written by men.... Quite often our lawd are immoral.

Not long ago it was lawful to own people and unlawful to help free them.

Its easy to feed on an emotional headline referring to the 32weeks.

But no one here knows the context.

Judge not one day you'll be in the other side of some immoral law

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By *parkle1974Woman
over a year ago

Leeds

"I think it's disgusting and she deserves everything she gets.

Bit black and white isn't it "

Not really. It was a baby she killed at the end of the day.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"And as for the law. Just because something is law doesn't mean it's right, fair and moral.

Laws are made by flawed humans."

THIS!!!!

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By *agpie and RavenMan
over a year ago

Leicester

I don't see how the fact she has 3 children and may suffer from some kind of (temporary?) mental disorder have to do with her sentencing.

Many fathers who are present in their children's lives are jailed. Also, many men who are jailed have mental health issues. Oh wait, she's a woman so must have special consideration. Equality only when it benefits women, eh?

Frank

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By *rontier PsychiatristMan
over a year ago

Coventry

So there is two issues here's. First if the law its self correct. Second are the sentencing guidelines correct and is there a need for them to be more neaunced?

The first I guess when is a life a life? I think by the maximum cut off date set by law we can safely validate that life as a life. I believe this has the weight of medical consensus. So personally the law it's self I feel is correct.

So on the second issue if we accept the law and when a life is a life we have a woman responsible for taking a life. Something that as pointed out had that resulted from the actions of another person will have constituted an offence or exacerbated the sentencing of another offence that caused it. No doubt into the custodial realm. However when a mother does this herself the baby is resident in her body and is directly effecting her. So I see an argument that this may be different. However parents are responsible for their child and prosecutable by law for harm, abuse or neglect once a child is born. Usually again requiring custodial sentencing especially in the result of death. So why should the harm of a child over 23 weeks inside a mother's body be considered different to once born? So it seems to me it should probably be an offence taken seriously regards sentencing.

Now there is an argument on mental state and diminished responsibility. That is already covered by law. If people are arguing that then there is no requirement to change the law or sentencing. She either has committed an offence as a sane person or there has been a failure of the justice system in this case. In which case this miscarriage of justice needs to be addressed in this case within the current frame work. Although I get there maybe an argument to investigate if legal system properly understands when there is diminished responsibility.

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By *ts the taking part thatMan
over a year ago

southampton

"No she shouldn't have had a custodial sentence! None of us know how her mental health was at this time! X"

As sad as the situation is she definitely had to receive a prison sentence. People saying 32 to 34 weeks are right but really hits home when you say 7 to 7.5 months.

Possibly 6 weeks from birth & plenty of premature births are even earlier with high survival rates.

She took the babies life & it's right to survival at that stage of pregnancy. There are plenty of people doing time that had mental issues at the time but doesn't make it forgivable or unpunishable.

To clarify, I am pro abortion within the UK prescribed timescales.

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By *aucasian GhandiMan
over a year ago

from my dad's left nut (Warwick)

"I think it's disgusting and she deserves everything she gets.

Bit black and white isn't it

Not really. It was a baby she killed at the end of the day."

So what differentiates from 8 weeks to 32 weeks

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By *melie LALWoman
over a year ago

Peterborough

"No she shouldn't have had a custodial sentence! None of us know how her mental health was at this time! X"

It doesn't give her the right to "commit murder". I stated it that way cos if someone kills another person, that would still be the charge but a lesser sentence if MH is involved?

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By *oggoneMan
over a year ago

Derry

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-65882169

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"And as for the law. Just because something is law doesn't mean it's right, fair and moral.

Laws are made by flawed humans."

It brings to mind about Dignitas

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By *ts the taking part thatMan
over a year ago

southampton

"I think it's disgusting and she deserves everything she gets.

Bit black and white isn't it

Not really. It was a baby she killed at the end of the day.

So what differentiates from 8 weeks to 32 weeks "

If you don't know you are not clever enough to have it explained to you.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It doesn't give her the right to "commit murder". I stated it that way cos if someone kills another person, that would still be the charge but a lesser sentence if MH is involved?"

I belive the charge might change to manslaughter from murder and different degrees of manslaughter with different sentences of MH is involved

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By *atnip make me purrWoman
over a year ago

Reading

Babies are surviving at earlier and earlier prematurity so yes I'm afraid this is murder. I'm also pro choice but not in this case. She had 32 weeks to make this decision.

Horrible case.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think it's disgusting and she deserves everything she gets.

Bit black and white isn't it

Not really. It was a baby she killed at the end of the day.

So what differentiates from 8 weeks to 32 weeks "

Am I reading this correctly?

You don't see a difference between a 8 week old fetus and a 32 week baby?

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By *melie LALWoman
over a year ago

Peterborough

"I think it's disgusting and she deserves everything she gets.

Bit black and white isn't it

Not really. It was a baby she killed at the end of the day.

So what differentiates from 8 weeks to 32 weeks "

Chance of survival. A pregnancy is full term from 37 weeks. In the last month or so the baby is merely gaining weight.

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By *melie LALWoman
over a year ago

Peterborough

It doesn't give her the right to "commit murder". I stated it that way cos if someone kills another person, that would still be the charge but a lesser sentence if MH is involved?

I belive the charge might change to manslaughter from murder and different degrees of manslaughter with different sentences of MH is involved"

My thoughts also, ie still punishable.

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By *oggoneMan
over a year ago

Derry

"I don't see how the fact she has 3 children and may suffer from some kind of (temporary?) mental disorder have to do with her sentencing.

Frank"

State of mind comes into play when you're talking criminal charges. Mens rea and mens sano are how the law refers to. Applies to everyone in that position

Ultimately mum knows if she is in a position to go through with it or not. And partner or no, it's mum that will be left holding the baby.

There's a really interesting chapter in the book freakanomics how Roe V Wade in the US was causal in a reduction in the crime rate 18 years later.

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By *estarossa.Woman
over a year ago

Flagrante

It was premeditated, but one wonders about her mental health.

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By *itonthesideWoman
over a year ago

Glasgow

"No she shouldn't have had a custodial sentence! None of us know how her mental health was at this time! X"

So do we let off anyone who commits a crime if they have poor mental health?

She lives in a country with access to free family planning and legal abortion til 24 weeks. This happened because she was hiding another mans baby from her partner. It was entirely avoidable and completely selfish

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By *itonthesideWoman
over a year ago

Glasgow

"Did someone perform the abortion ?

No, she took a pill which induced the abortion. Was bought online

She didn’t buy the pills online. Prescription by post without actually seeing anyone, discussing mental health or having a scan is what happened during lockdown.

Ah ok, I read somewhere she had bought them online rather than prescription by post. Thank you for clearing that up. "

And she lied and led them to believe she was between 7-10 weeks to get that prescription

My worry is that young impressionable girls will now see that it is possible to take these tablets after their max date. Abortions are still legal til 24 weeks but have to be performed at a clinic after a certain point for a reason

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By *itonthesideWoman
over a year ago

Glasgow

"I think the first thing to keep in mind is that unless you have been in this situation, you don't understand the situation. But that's never stopped most people from freely judging in a way they wouldn't want to be judged in.

She already had 3 kids. The issue is this child was not her partners.

For the people that say a sentence is not right, what about her frame of mind , etc etc

Would you feel the same if she had murdered and adult to keep a secret from her partner? Because the motive was the same.

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By *erence IIMan
over a year ago

Irrelevant

When abortion is allowed or not is always going to be subjective. Even in the pro life loby, many would accept the coil as a form of contraceptive even though in some (rare?) cases it works by preventing a fertilised embryo implanting thus effectively terminating a viable pregnancy.

At the other end of the scale, the most ardent pro choice advocate is going to be horrified by aborting at 9 months and would strongly advocate for this being a criminal offense.

Somewhere in between there needs to be a line and it is down to society, guided I would argue by science, to decide where that line should be. Before that line it is acceptable to terminate a pregnancy, after it, to do so is against the law. Once we've agreed that line then we need to agree sentencing guidelines and as this discussion shows, these guidelines themselves need agreement. 1 day over and people may question a prison sentence, 2 months and it may be considered reasonable.

I don't know the case, nor the legal positions so I'm going to make an assumption that the sentencing was within legal guidelines in which case I accept it as being appropriate.

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By *issmorganWoman
over a year ago

Calderdale innit

Reading the court notes she knew she was pregnant Jan 2020 so had lots of time to abort it.yet waited until may 2020,then lied about how far along she was to be get the abortion pill by phone.

She also lied to the paramedics when she called 999 after going into labour (after the pills ).They tried to resuscitate the baby who was stillborn.

When they looked at her phone she had been googling now to get rid of a baby past 24 weeks and other things.

I agree she should receive a sentence for it,other babies have survived at 32 weeks and younger.

If she didn't want the baby she could have given birth then had it adopted to someone who would want it.

It seems like she wasn't sure who the father was and went back to her ex , disguising the pregnancy

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By *ehindHerEyesCouple
over a year ago

SomewhereOnlyWeKnow

Laws written by men.... Quite often our lawd are immoral.

Not long ago it was lawful to own people and unlawful to help free them.

Its easy to feed on an emotional headline referring to the 32weeks.

But no one here knows the context.

Judge not one day you'll be in the other side of some immoral law"

Are you saying that laws are wrong, sorry immoral, because they are written by men and that women would have a different outlook when it comes to abortion laws?

Marc

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By *oggoneMan
over a year ago

Derry

She already had 3 kids. The issue is this child was not her partners.

For the people that say a sentence is not right, what about her frame of mind , etc etc

Would you feel the same if she had murdered and adult to keep a secret from her partner? Because the motive was the same."

Some context, she was estranged from her partner when she conceived. She subsequently reconciled with her partner. This was at the start of lockdown, not a normal time at all. The frame of mind is always considered.

Making a comparison with a hypothetical is pointless as an attempt to justify the verdict and sentence.

This isn't justice, this is a tragedy for her and her family.

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By *parkle1974Woman
over a year ago

Leeds

"I think it's disgusting and she deserves everything she gets.

Bit black and white isn't it

Not really. It was a baby she killed at the end of the day.

So what differentiates from 8 weeks to 32 weeks "

At 8 weeks it's not a fully formed able to survive little person

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By *ooroo2019Woman
over a year ago

Chester

It’s just horrific for everyone involved. I think there are so many facets and so many opinions.

There is obviously the question around the criminalisation of abortion, but that’s a wider question. There are clearly people who sit passionately sit on either side of the fence.

I think the sad thing is that in this case a woman has now been separated from her three children for duration of a custodial sentence.

I can’t even begin to imagine what she was going through in 2020 when she chose to make this decision, but I bet it haunts her every single day. She pleaded guilty in court so clearly demonstrated accountability for her actions and remorse for what she did. She isn’t a danger to society, I doubt she will offend again. It is is such a rare occurrence for a woman to seek an abortion after 24 weeks that this sentence is unlikely to act as much of a deterrent to other women. So I struggle to see the benefit of a custodial sentence. Would a suspended sentence not have been more appropriate with some mental health support?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It’s just horrific for everyone involved. I think there are so many facets and so many opinions.

There is obviously the question around the criminalisation of abortion, but that’s a wider question. There are clearly people who sit passionately sit on either side of the fence.

I think the sad thing is that in this case a woman has now been separated from her three children for duration of a custodial sentence.

I agree

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By *oggoneMan
over a year ago

Derry

"I think it's disgusting and she deserves everything she gets.

Bit black and white isn't it

Not really. It was a baby she killed at the end of the day.

So what differentiates from 8 weeks to 32 weeks

At 8 weeks it's not a fully formed able to survive little person"

I don't that is in dispute.

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By *andyfloss2000Woman
over a year ago

ashford

"Between 32 and 34 weeks, it's a baby. If it was born at those times it would likely survive without much medical intervention.

If it was medically nessisary then whatever.

It's a baby from day one imo! That said I'm not against abortion! X

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By *itonthesideWoman
over a year ago

Glasgow

She already had 3 kids. The issue is this child was not her partners.

For the people that say a sentence is not right, what about her frame of mind , etc etc

Would you feel the same if she had murdered and adult to keep a secret from her partner? Because the motive was the same.

Making a comparison with a hypothetical is pointless as an attempt to justify the verdict and sentence.

This isn't justice, this is a tragedy for her and her family."

I don’t need to justify the verdict or the sentence as both were completely in compliance with the law

My opinion however is that no matter how emotive it is for her family, she pre-meditatively planned and executed the death of her child.

I am pro choice , but abortion time limits are in place for a reason, as are laws. And being a parent, a covid lockdown or being in a poor frame of mind shouldn’t exclude you from either.

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By *ig1gaz1Man
over a year ago

bradford

I disagree she shouldnt have been charged with anything.

Only after the child was born is it truly classed as a life.

Its her body her choice on what she wants.

Otherwise we are really starting to blur the lines on what we class as a life and what we dont.

Alot of the rules are created by men and yet they dont carry, dont do the work and certainly dont do whats needed.

Yes they will always be the its a life but when its termed onto other animals out there they dont give a toss.

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By *andyfloss2000Woman
over a year ago

ashford

"No she shouldn't have had a custodial sentence! None of us know how her mental health was at this time! X

It doesn't give her the right to "commit murder". I stated it that way cos if someone kills another person, that would still be the charge but a lesser sentence if MH is involved?"

So is it not murder before 22 weeks or whenever is the limit? I had a miscarriage at 16 weeks and held that tiny baby in my hand he was a tiny human ! X

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By *andyfloss2000Woman
over a year ago

ashford

"I think it's disgusting and she deserves everything she gets.

Bit black and white isn't it

Not really. It was a baby she killed at the end of the day.

So what differentiates from 8 weeks to 32 weeks

If you don't know you are not clever enough to have it explained to you."

WOW!

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By *nightsoftheCoffeeTableCouple
over a year ago

Leeds

In pro choice but not at 32-34 weeks, no that's just wrong in my opinion.

There's a reason there's a limit on abortion gestation.

Mrs

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By *andyfloss2000Woman
over a year ago

ashford

"I think it's disgusting and she deserves everything she gets.

Bit black and white isn't it

Not really. It was a baby she killed at the end of the day.

So what differentiates from 8 weeks to 32 weeks

Am I reading this correctly?

You don't see a difference between a 8 week old fetus and a 32 week baby?

Imo they are both babies!!

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By *andyfloss2000Woman
over a year ago

ashford

"No she shouldn't have had a custodial sentence! None of us know how her mental health was at this time! X

So do we let off anyone who commits a crime if they have poor mental health?

Iyo!! X

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By *aucasian GhandiMan
over a year ago

from my dad's left nut (Warwick)

"I think it's disgusting and she deserves everything she gets.

Bit black and white isn't it

Not really. It was a baby she killed at the end of the day.

So what differentiates from 8 weeks to 32 weeks

Am I reading this correctly?

You don't see a difference between a 8 week old fetus and a 32 week baby?

I fully understand the difference....I'm merely asking why its acceptable at one point as opposed to further on dien the line, where does it move from acceptable to unacceptable.

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By *andyfloss2000Woman
over a year ago

ashford

"I think it's disgusting and she deserves everything she gets.

Bit black and white isn't it

Not really. It was a baby she killed at the end of the day.

So what differentiates from 8 weeks to 32 weeks

Am I reading this correctly?

You don't see a difference between a 8 week old fetus and a 32 week baby?

I fully understand the difference....I'm merely asking why its acceptable at one point as opposed to further on dien the line, where does it move from acceptable to unacceptable."

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By *itonthesideWoman
over a year ago

Glasgow

"No she shouldn't have had a custodial sentence! None of us know how her mental health was at this time! X

So do we let off anyone who commits a crime if they have poor mental health?

Iyo!! X"

Its not really. Its undeniable fact that it could have been avoided as its been proven she knew she was pregnant almost 5 months earlier and we know she lives in a country that doesn’t block access to legal abortion.

She also admitted in court that she was trying to conceal the pregnancy from her partner that she reconciled with

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By *aucasian GhandiMan
over a year ago

from my dad's left nut (Warwick)

"I think it's disgusting and she deserves everything she gets.

Bit black and white isn't it

Not really. It was a baby she killed at the end of the day.

So what differentiates from 8 weeks to 32 weeks

If you don't know you are not clever enough to have it explained to you."

OK, I know nothing and you can jump all over it with a banal perspective of what I said. And make an implicit meaning based on your own intelligence

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Judge not lest ye yourself be judged

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By *aucasian GhandiMan
over a year ago

from my dad's left nut (Warwick)

"Judge not lest ye yourself be judged "

Very prophetic F C

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By *andyfloss2000Woman
over a year ago

ashford

"Judge not lest ye yourself be judged "

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I don't agree with the custodial sentence.

I hope she is receiving mental health and physical support. We don't know the whole story, nor should we expect it to be handed to us so we can make our own rulings.

She must be in a bad place.

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By *ustSomeDarkieMan
over a year ago

Salford

"No she shouldn't have had a custodial sentence! None of us know how her mental health was at this time! X"

I was in a really bad way mentally when I mugged you last night but trust me my mental heath was in the gutter. Call it a free pass.

Throw her into GenPop, the ladies there will correct her.

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By *riar BelisseWoman
over a year ago

Delightful Bliss

She should serve her time as tagged on licence, not custodial, and the sentence was disproportionate to her crime. another lockdown story where services failed someone in desperate need of help

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By *melie LALWoman
over a year ago

Peterborough

"Between 32 and 34 weeks, it's a baby. If it was born at those times it would likely survive without much medical intervention.

If it was medically nessisary then whatever.

It's a baby from day one imo! That said I'm not against abortion! X"

No it's not. It's a collection of cells.

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By *ig1gaz1Man
over a year ago

bradford

If you care to look at history from the ladys reference.

the religion says you cannot abort that was drilled into the court system centurys ago by there rules.

who ruled them men

men of the church

who ruled the courts men

The first references to abortion in English law appeared in the 13th Century. The law followed Church teaching that abortion was acceptable until ‘quickening’, which, it was believed, was when the soul entered the fetus. The legal situation remained like this for centuries.

1803: The Ellenborough Act – abortion after ‘quickening’ (i.e. when movement is felt at 16-20 weeks) carried the death penalty. Previously the punishment had been less severe.

1861: The Offences Against the Person Act: performing an abortion or trying to self-abort carried a sentence of life imprisonment.

abortion rights history of abortion uk law

alot of those rules have been done with superstition

where men determine what is right and whats wrong and also with the churches input

put it this way they will never be a woman pope

and churches still refuse ladys as higher ups

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By *erence IIMan
over a year ago

Irrelevant

"Judge not lest ye yourself be judged "

Agree entirely with this sentiment. It is why we have a framework of law that was, as far as I understand it, followed correctly. This enables us to have a reasonable degree of certainty that see for the sentence she deserved.

It's worth noting that "judge not" goes both ways. Saying she wasn't guilty (or at least not guilty enough to be incarcerated) is a judgement in itself, and no more or less of a subjective udgement or opinion than saying she was.

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By *elaninMaverickWoman
over a year ago

near Putney Heath

"Did someone perform the abortion ?

She took the pills. She told them she was 10 weeks. I think this then induced labour, she gave birth but then the baby died. I think that's what happened."

That's horrible. They shouldn't sell that stuff online!!

FFS!!

There needs to be pre and post-abortion care!

My mom was a midwife and they used to measure the size of the baby in your tummy.

Don't they measure the size and check for a heartbeat at the clinic?

Either way no to abortion pills...amongst other shite sold online.

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By *ellinever70Woman
over a year ago

Ayrshire

No, I don’t think she should have received a custodial sentence

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By *melie LALWoman
over a year ago

Peterborough

"No she shouldn't have had a custodial sentence! None of us know how her mental health was at this time! X

It doesn't give her the right to "commit murder". I stated it that way cos if someone kills another person, that would still be the charge but a lesser sentence if MH is involved?

So is it not murder before 22 weeks or whenever is the limit? I had a miscarriage at 16 weeks and held that tiny baby in my hand he was a tiny human ! X"

No it isn't by the laws of this land.

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By *elaninMaverickWoman
over a year ago

near Putney Heath

"Judge not lest ye yourself be judged "

I'm judging because I get judged all the time.

I would never put myself in the care of online sellers for something as complicated as a pregnancy.

Even though I have a mental health therapist online, my GP and the crisis team have oversight offline!

I'm judging the people who sell this stuff online to vulnerable people.

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By *riar BelisseWoman
over a year ago

Delightful Bliss

"No she shouldn't have had a custodial sentence! None of us know how her mental health was at this time! X

So do we let off anyone who commits a crime if they have poor mental health?

It was in lockdown, you couldn't even see a dentist, let alone get an abortion.... she did what she had to do, whilst breaking the law and she is paying for that

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By *a LunaWoman
over a year ago

South Wales

I don’t know all the details and all the circumstances, but what I do know is that it was very late in the pregnancy, and that doesn’t sit well with me.

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By *issmorganWoman
over a year ago

Calderdale innit

"No she shouldn't have had a custodial sentence! None of us know how her mental health was at this time! X

So do we let off anyone who commits a crime if they have poor mental health?

It was in lockdown, you couldn't even see a dentist, let alone get an abortion.... she did what she had to do, whilst breaking the law and she is paying for that"

She knew she was pregnant well before the lockdown though ,as early as beginning of Feb.

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By *issmorganWoman
over a year ago

Calderdale innit

"Did someone perform the abortion ?

She took the pills. She told them she was 10 weeks. I think this then induced labour, she gave birth but then the baby died. I think that's what happened.

That's horrible. They shouldn't sell that stuff online!!

FFS!!

There needs to be pre and post-abortion care!

My mom was a midwife and they used to measure the size of the baby in your tummy.

Don't they measure the size and check for a heartbeat at the clinic?

Either way no to abortion pills...amongst other shite sold online.

She didn't get the pills online

It was from a pregnancy service and she lied and said she was 7/8 weeks along to get the pills .

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By *elaninMaverickWoman
over a year ago

near Putney Heath

"Judge not lest ye yourself be judged

I'm judging because I get judged all the time.

I would never put myself in the care of online sellers for something as complicated as a pregnancy.

Even though I have a mental health therapist online, my GP and the crisis team have oversight offline!

I'm judging the people who sell this stuff online to vulnerable people."

Addendum: turns out she was in lockdown when they decided it was a good idea to give her abortion pills without being seen by a physician....smh...that was a horrific time....

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By *elaninMaverickWoman
over a year ago

near Putney Heath

"Did someone perform the abortion ?

She took the pills. She told them she was 10 weeks. I think this then induced labour, she gave birth but then the baby died. I think that's what happened.

That's horrible. They shouldn't sell that stuff online!!

FFS!!

There needs to be pre and post-abortion care!

My mom was a midwife and they used to measure the size of the baby in your tummy.

Don't they measure the size and check for a heartbeat at the clinic?

Either way no to abortion pills...amongst other shite sold online.

She didn't get the pills online

It was from a pregnancy service and she lied and said she was 7/8 weeks along to get the pills ."

She wasn't physically examined....or given any aftercare! I can't believe the government allowed that.

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By *issmorganWoman
over a year ago

Calderdale innit

"Did someone perform the abortion ?

She took the pills. She told them she was 10 weeks. I think this then induced labour, she gave birth but then the baby died. I think that's what happened.

That's horrible. They shouldn't sell that stuff online!!

FFS!!

There needs to be pre and post-abortion care!

My mom was a midwife and they used to measure the size of the baby in your tummy.

Don't they measure the size and check for a heartbeat at the clinic?

Either way no to abortion pills...amongst other shite sold online.

She didn't get the pills online

It was from a pregnancy service and she lied and said she was 7/8 weeks along to get the pills .

She wasn't physically examined....or given any aftercare! I can't believe the government allowed that."

She could have got help months earlier ,she knew she was pregnant Feb of that year.she waited till may 2020 ,so she has to take some responsibility for it all.

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By *oggoneMan
over a year ago

Derry

"Did someone perform the abortion ?

She took the pills. She told them she was 10 weeks. I think this then induced labour, she gave birth but then the baby died. I think that's what happened.

That's horrible. They shouldn't sell that stuff online!!

FFS!!

There needs to be pre and post-abortion care!

My mom was a midwife and they used to measure the size of the baby in your tummy.

Don't they measure the size and check for a heartbeat at the clinic?

Either way no to abortion pills...amongst other shite sold online.

She didn't get the pills online

It was from a pregnancy service and she lied and said she was 7/8 weeks along to get the pills .

She wasn't physically examined....or given any aftercare! I can't believe the government allowed that."

The whole thing is a tragedy for all concerned, she's going to prison and her life will never be the same.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Judge not lest ye yourself be judged

A law from 1861.... A law until recently without analogy in any other modern country

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By *itonthesideWoman
over a year ago

Glasgow

"No she shouldn't have had a custodial sentence! None of us know how her mental health was at this time! X

So do we let off anyone who commits a crime if they have poor mental health?

It was in lockdown, you couldn't even see a dentist, let alone get an abortion.... she did what she had to do, whilst breaking the law and she is paying for that

She knew she was pregnant well before the lockdown though ,as early as beginning of Feb."

and abortion was still available as essential care. The dentist understandably was less essential and not available

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By *elaninMaverickWoman
over a year ago

near Putney Heath

"Did someone perform the abortion ?

She took the pills. She told them she was 10 weeks. I think this then induced labour, she gave birth but then the baby died. I think that's what happened.

That's horrible. They shouldn't sell that stuff online!!

FFS!!

There needs to be pre and post-abortion care!

My mom was a midwife and they used to measure the size of the baby in your tummy.

Don't they measure the size and check for a heartbeat at the clinic?

Either way no to abortion pills...amongst other shite sold online.

She didn't get the pills online

It was from a pregnancy service and she lied and said she was 7/8 weeks along to get the pills .

She wasn't physically examined....or given any aftercare! I can't believe the government allowed that.

The whole thing is a tragedy for all concerned, she's going to prison and her life will never be the same."

She's got flashbacks of her dead child's face. That could have been avoided if they didn't post abortion pills to random people who could say anything on the phone!

I advocate for mental health and abortions cause mental problems for women and should be carefully managed. Not here pop a pill and your life is wonderful...

It's a joke....my GP and pharmacy mix up my medication all of the time. Luckily I'm well enough to refuse to take it but I know other people who would take it, stockpile it and in a moment of crisis ingest the whole lot.

I'm not anti-medication or anti-abortion but this stuff needs to be monitored carefully!

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By *elaninMaverickWoman
over a year ago

near Putney Heath

"No she shouldn't have had a custodial sentence! None of us know how her mental health was at this time! X

So do we let off anyone who commits a crime if they have poor mental health?

It was in lockdown, you couldn't even see a dentist, let alone get an abortion.... she did what she had to do, whilst breaking the law and she is paying for that

She knew she was pregnant well before the lockdown though ,as early as beginning of Feb.

and abortion was still available as essential care. The dentist understandably was less essential and not available

I've sat and spoke to women with unpleasant pregnancy circumstances and yeah they have all been pretty distressed. Throw in lockdown and now you have an even more distressed person.

Unfortunately, unnecessary traumatic deaths occur from abortions and poor dental care.

Thank God I didn't have an eye problem during lockdown or I would probably be blind right now...due to a telephone assessment.

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By *TG3Man
over a year ago

Dorchester

It's kind of similar to that girl who gave birth to a baby a few months ago and just threw the baby in the bin wrapped up in a plastic bag. It's unimaginable."
life is life sorry i disagree and if terminations were more freely available then their wouldn't be so many unhappy unwanted children around, sorry birth is for a happy family and not someone who doesn't care or who doesn't want that child or who isn't of a mental state to bring them into the world, a custodial sentence is a farce in this instance, our prisons are full. I'm sorry i don't believe in life for lifes sake

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By *andyfloss2000Woman
over a year ago

ashford

"No she shouldn't have had a custodial sentence! None of us know how her mental health was at this time! X

I was in a really bad way mentally when I mugged you last night but trust me my mental heath was in the gutter. Call it a free pass.

Throw her into GenPop, the ladies there will correct her. "

face palm face palm!!

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By *andyfloss2000Woman
over a year ago

ashford

"No she shouldn't have had a custodial sentence! None of us know how her mental health was at this time! X

It doesn't give her the right to "commit murder". I stated it that way cos if someone kills another person, that would still be the charge but a lesser sentence if MH is involved?

So is it not murder before 22 weeks or whenever is the limit? I had a miscarriage at 16 weeks and held that tiny baby in my hand he was a tiny human ! X

No it isn't by the laws of this land."

HE WAS!!!!!!!!

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By *itonthesideWoman
over a year ago

Glasgow

" I'm sorry i don't believe in life for lifes sake

I don’t think you have to believe in life for lifes sake to appreciate the requirement for a time limit on abortion.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I am pro choice

however! 32-34 weeks is insane.

She googled how to abort a 6 month pregnancy. She knew she was pregnant - it wasn't a case of She didn't know and panicked and was too late. She knew, she also lied and said she was 7 weeks to get the tablets.

In my view she deserves a custodial sentence. The baby was healthy as was the mother.

Obviously 24 weeks is the cut off. - anything above can be done if doctors agree the mother or babies life is In danger or compromised.. her case was neither.

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By *ent in BlackMan
over a year ago

Silsden

"Watching Jeremy vine earlier and they were discussing the sentencing of the lady who aborted at 32 wks tragic but she did break the law. but should she have been sentenced obviously there is more to the poor case quite a few especially women were saying it's not long enough.i do think it's correct especially as one as said if her partner had say pushed when he found out and they baby died he would have been sentenced to a lot longer."

I’m kinda torn on this one, she clearly wasn’t in a good place but equally broke the law. I can’t even begin to imagine what she was going through.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

She had every chance to abort sooner. She could have given the baby up for adoption - in my opinion there was no legit reason to terminate a healthy fetus at 7 months gestation unless the mother is also in danger mentally or physically. (Which they proved wasn't the case).

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By *ent in BlackMan
over a year ago

Silsden

[Removed by poster at 13/06/23 18:04:29]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think the bottom line here is that we know only what we've read in news etc.

Yes we know some of the facts and dates but we know fuck all about the context, reason, the "series of misfortunate events" that led this woman to doing this.

I am certain and WILL make a presumption here that this decision of hers didn't come easy and she isnt OK.

She needs help and support not custodial sentence

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Not to mention the UK has extremely lax abortion laws compared to most other countries. We are very lucky to live in a country with such support thats freely available and available through the NHS.

It's been reported she split with her partner, got pregnant through someone else & her snd the original pattner were getting back together hence her wanting to get rid. :/ so basically killed a fully grown baby (that would survive out of the womb) for a man.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

And for all ya saying "but she broke the law"

I promise you every single one of us here breaks the law every day without thinking about it.

So... Maybe no need to feed on other persons mystery like hyenas

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By *itonthesideWoman
over a year ago

Glasgow

"I’m kinda torn on this one, she clearly wasn’t in a good place but equally broke the law. I can’t even begin to imagine what she was going through."

I wonder why we all jump (myself included) to the assumption that she was going through alot and not in a great place mentally, but rarely consider these motivations so easily when it comes to other crime

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I’m kinda torn on this one, she clearly wasn’t in a good place but equally broke the law. I can’t even begin to imagine what she was going through.

Criminals are generally framed as people that are bad and unworthy of sympathy. Deliberately so.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"And for all ya saying "but she broke the law"

I promise you every single one of us here breaks the law every day without thinking about it.

So... Maybe no need to feed on other persons mystery like hyenas

You really think that everyone breaks the law in a similar seriousness? Wow

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman
over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

I've read quite a few responses. Each response speaks as if the woman was in full possession of her faculties and just decided to lose her baby for the sheer hell of it.

There but for the grace of all that is messy about humanity ...... no wonder she thought she'd be judged , misunderstood and unable to cope.

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By *itonthesideWoman
over a year ago

Glasgow

"I’m kinda torn on this one, she clearly wasn’t in a good place but equally broke the law. I can’t even begin to imagine what she was going through.

An example being … guy loses his job, can’t provide for his family, worried about the break up of his family, is going through that turmoil. Tanks a bottle of vodka, gets behind the wheel and kills a child. It wouldn’t even cross my mind to think but the poor guy was having a hard time. I would be thinking he is a grown ass adult that knows better than to get behind the wheel d*unk. (And this example doesn’t even have the same pre meditation element)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"No she shouldn't have had a custodial sentence! None of us know how her mental health was at this time! X

It doesn't give her the right to "commit murder". I stated it that way cos if someone kills another person, that would still be the charge but a lesser sentence if MH is involved?

So is it not murder before 22 weeks or whenever is the limit? I had a miscarriage at 16 weeks and held that tiny baby in my hand he was a tiny human ! X

No it isn't by the laws of this land.

HE WAS!!!!!!!!"

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman
over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

"No she shouldn't have had a custodial sentence! None of us know how her mental health was at this time! X

It doesn't give her the right to "commit murder". I stated it that way cos if someone kills another person, that would still be the charge but a lesser sentence if MH is involved?

So is it not murder before 22 weeks or whenever is the limit? I had a miscarriage at 16 weeks and held that tiny baby in my hand he was a tiny human ! X

No it isn't by the laws of this land."

She said she lost her baby.

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By *melie LALWoman
over a year ago

Peterborough

"No she shouldn't have had a custodial sentence! None of us know how her mental health was at this time! X

It doesn't give her the right to "commit murder". I stated it that way cos if someone kills another person, that would still be the charge but a lesser sentence if MH is involved?

So is it not murder before 22 weeks or whenever is the limit? I had a miscarriage at 16 weeks and held that tiny baby in my hand he was a tiny human ! X

No it isn't by the laws of this land.

HE WAS!!!!!!!!"

I was responding to your question.

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By *ent in BlackMan
over a year ago

Silsden

"I’m kinda torn on this one, she clearly wasn’t in a good place but equally broke the law. I can’t even begin to imagine what she was going through.

That’s actually a very fair point and should be considered.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"And for all ya saying "but she broke the law"

I promise you every single one of us here breaks the law every day without thinking about it.

So... Maybe no need to feed on other persons mystery like hyenas

You really think that everyone breaks the law in a similar seriousness? Wow"

Of course not same seriousness. But potentially.

I dont know ONE person who doesn't check phone while driving....

All potential killers. Just haven't met their potential yet.

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By *melie LALWoman
over a year ago

Peterborough

It's a highly emotive subject, however I've remained objective throughout and kept to the side of the law. Whether a woman opts for an abortion or miscarries, the time can be traumatic. There is always a context. I have been through both and both were, very differently traumatic.

My heart goes out to any woman who has gone through similar, and of course any who are connected to these issues.

I hope one day they will review the cut off time as babies are surviving earlier than 24 weeks.

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By *ig1gaz1Man
over a year ago

bradford

"An example being … guy loses his job, can’t provide for his family, worried about the break up of his family, is going through that turmoil. Tanks a bottle of vodka, gets behind the wheel and kills a child. It wouldn’t even cross my mind to think but the poor guy was having a hard time. I would be thinking he is a grown ass adult that knows better than to get behind the wheel d*unk. (And this example doesn’t even have the same pre meditation element) "

That reference cant be used as biased as it is.

as the child was'nt born or grown up ...

In this case the child wasnt born hasnt taken an inch of air into its lungs