FabSwingers.com forum: Do you believe in equal pay?

By *hagTonight OP Man
over a year ago

From the land of haribos.

I do that and it doesnt matter what gender, race etc one is, for doing the same kind of labor, if they have the equal kind of experience.

However, in my opinion, experience matters as well as I mentioned, so if one have more experience than the other in the same role, then they should of course get more pay, but otherwise it should be the same wage in an ideal world.

What is your view of it?

Does also once experience in the same role determine if they will get more pay too?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think pay should be based on performance. Everything else is irrelevant when it comes to pay in my opinion

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By *nightsoftheCoffeeTableCouple
over a year ago

Leeds

I agree pay should be equal but performance and experience based, not gender etc based.

Mrs

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By *nightsoftheCoffeeTableCouple
over a year ago

Leeds

No I believe in you get paid for a role, the longer/ more experienced you are in that role then your pay should reflect that. Gender should be irrelevant.

The mr

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think pay should be based on performance. Everything else is irrelevant when it comes to pay in my opinion "

I totally agree, for example if 1 labourer can move 1000 bricks an hour and 1 labourer can only move 500 then their pay should reflect that performance

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By *hagTonight OP Man
over a year ago

From the land of haribos.

"I think pay should be based on performance. Everything else is irrelevant when it comes to pay in my opinion "
Yes. I would say so too, that it also should be down to performance as well

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman
over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

"I do that and it doesnt matter what gender, race etc one is, for doing the same kind of labor, if they have the equal kind of experience.

What is your view of it?

Does also once experience in the same role determine if they will get more pay too?

Experience should not count UNLESS that experience allows them to do the job either better or faster and the other is serving some sort of trial period or apprenticeship.

e.g. Why should a leaflet distributor who distributes 1000 leaflets a day get less than someone who distributes 1000 a day ? ( assuming no other responsibilities are at play )

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By *ris GrayMan
over a year ago

Dorchester

No women are inferior to men

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By *obilebottomMan
over a year ago

All over

"I think pay should be based on performance. Everything else is irrelevant when it comes to pay in my opinion

I totally agree, for example if 1 labourer can move 1000 bricks an hour and 1 labourer can only move 500 then their pay should reflect that performance "

It would all depend on the definition of the job, minimum standards and whether it was performance related. Just because someone fancied moving a few more bricks than what the job required does not mean an automatic better pay though there are of course other ways to reward that with bonuses, recognition awards, vouchers and other perks that lots of organisations use for that purpose. Many jobs of coursecalso are associated with a pay scale to recognise such things including experience, years of service etc.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

May draw heat from this not shour but ok here we go

Yes I believe in = pay for all in all industry’s

But at the moment in traditional industries men have the higher pay

And in none traditional industries woman have the higher pay

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By *ucka39Man
over a year ago

Newcastle

Based on experience, quality, and performance time is money.... Shoddy work should be pay deducted

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By *929Man
over a year ago

newcastle

As mentioned already pay should be performance/production based at least in areas where it can be fairly measured. Part of the reason I enjoy self employment is the motivation that working harder means better income, in the few jobs I have worked there was absolutely no incentive to work hard as pay was the same regardless and without some form of motivation work becomes an utter drag

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By *ts the taking part thatMan
over a year ago

southampton

Equal pay if an equal job but that falls down in say women's football or similar as the money available is based on commercial appeal & crowd size.

No reason to pay different rates if doing the same job to the same level.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Pay should be based on experience and performance. However in a lot of cases favouritism drives pay rises. I have sat in management appraisals where pay rises have been decided and had a few arguments where people who kiss ass and get away with fuck ups get bigger rises

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town

"I do that and it doesnt matter what gender, race etc one is, for doing the same kind of labor, if they have the equal kind of experience.

What is your view of it?

Does also once experience in the same role determine if they will get more pay too?

Its a bit of a blunt question, there are so many factors...for me its about the overall package being equal... Training, holidays, sick pay, days off, opportunities for progression, overtime, etc. But yes the package should be equal for all.

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By *odgerMooreMan
over a year ago

Carlisle

"No women are inferior to men

The lack of a comma could make this the opposite of what you meant

or a funny way to commit suitide!!

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By *ts the taking part thatMan
over a year ago

southampton

"No women are inferior to men

The lack of a comma could make this the opposite of what you meant

or a funny way to commit suitide!!

Suitide?

Let's give him the benefit of doubt, could be bigging up the ladies.

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town

"Pay should be based on experience and performance. However in a lot of cases favouritism drives pay rises. I have sat in management appraisals where pay rises have been decided and had a few arguments where people who kiss ass and get away with fuck ups get bigger rises"

Lifes not fair.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

No, I should be paid the same as Elon Musk...

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By *elvet RopeMan
over a year ago

by the big field

It depends

I used to work at a company that had an equal pay policy and clarity on it.

In the office, two people doing the same job- 1 male, 1 female.

Female got pregnant, took several months off after having it then over the next 4-5 years she was constantly having to start late, finish early, pick kid up from here and there, time off when it was ill, always a reason!- guy on the other hand was always in, rarely off for anything but AL, picked up all the slack of the outstanding work, got rostered for the shitty shifts and basically had a pay cut as he was doing more for less.

When the woman was in, she was always bloody chatting, outside having a fag or on her phone.

Just before i left, their boss retired and with the company policy of looking to recruit internally, both were up for the role. It was given to the woman as she's been there nearly a year longer and was viewed as being more experienced...despite probably having more time off and knowing less about the job as the guy was the one one doing the bulk of the work and building the relationships with clients.

Last i heard, he'd left and the whole department was a walking clusterfuck that was impacting on several other departments and she'd gone off long term sick due to 'stress'.

So while equal pay should be a baseline, companies really need to reward the staff who put the extra effort in, regardless of who they are- if not, you'll very quickly end up with a company full of those who don't.

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By *odgerMooreMan
over a year ago

Carlisle

If the role requirements are the same yes and you can reflect performance by bonus structures or incentives - same job - same pay.

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By *UGGYBEAR2015Man
over a year ago

BRIDPORT

No.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think pay gaps are simple but it feels like people make them complex concepts.

It’s interesting to consider the difference in pay based on things like race and gender and to consider how we can remove barriers that exist preventing progression.

But also, money is a silly concept in so many ways.

It’s controversial I know but that’s my opinion

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

Same role then same pay..

Whilst additional skills acquired over time will reflect that in extras the core role is the same so pay has to reflect that..

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By *amantha TSWoman
over a year ago

Swindon

Of course pay should be equal. But one thing that is not equal is opportunity. Be that internal promotion as others have said or other things such as women in STEM careers that have traditionally been thought of as male only environments. Or companies advertising jobs in places where as wide an audience can find them (for example only advertising roles internally or on specialist websites for their own particular niche). Education are especially guilty of this!

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By *elvet RopeMan
over a year ago

by the big field

"Of course pay should be equal. But one thing that is not equal is opportunity. Be that internal promotion as others have said or other things such as women in STEM careers that have traditionally been thought of as male only environments. Or companies advertising jobs in places where as wide an audience can find them (for example only advertising roles internally or on specialist websites for their own particular niche). Education are especially guilty of this!"

Posting jobs to industry specific websites or recruiters makes it easier for both sides. I can't see any logic in posting a job that has specific skill sets to a generic site aimed at the unskilled jobs market

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By *ansexualPandaMan
over a year ago

Near You

"I think pay should be based on performance. Everything else is irrelevant when it comes to pay in my opinion "

Yep, totally agree with this.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Only if you got mad skills brah

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By *hagTonight OP Man
over a year ago

From the land of haribos.

"I agree pay should be equal but performance and experience based, not gender etc based.

Mrs "
Yes, you are right there as well

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By *ris GrayMan
over a year ago

Dorchester

"No women are inferior to men

The lack of a comma could make this the opposite of what you meant

or a funny way to commit suitide!!

Suitide?

Let's give him the benefit of doubt, could be bigging up the ladies.

"
is it low tide?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yes, I do. If someone is capable of doing a job, it is their skills and experience that should matter and not their sex or ethnic background.

I would have thought that the sex discrimination act of 1975 should have largely dealt with this, but alas, in 2023 there are still people that aren't being paid fairly for the job they do

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By *m3232Man
over a year ago

maidenhead

"I think pay should be based on performance. Everything else is irrelevant when it comes to pay in my opinion "

Totally agree

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By *angtidy42Couple
over a year ago

Redditch

Equal pay to start and then raised after time served and expertise in job field.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Lifes not fair. "

It isn't, but if you have the opportunity to challenge it then do so. Even if it means getting a written warning and making an enemy of the head of HR

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By *ily WhiteWoman
over a year ago

I believe that gender should not influence pay levels. I don't want to be paid the same as my male colleague just because I'm the owner of a vagina, I want to be paid more than him because I'm more experienced, have more qualifications, and can do the job in a more efficient and productive manner than he can!

Whilst I do agree that there is a gender pay gap, I do think that conscious choices like taking time out to raise children are a significant factor. Yes, I know that raising children is a very important job, and vital for the continuation of the population - but, if a colleague with identical experience to me took a few years off to live on an off-grid commune, then came back and got paid the same as me, I'd be pretty miffed. I would now have years more experience, possibly more qualifications, and be completely up to date with current industry regulations and practises, whereas they wouldn't. To me that's the same as maternity leave.

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By *ehindHerEyesCouple
over a year ago

SomewhereOnlyWeKnow

In an ideal world then yes everyone who is doing the same role would be paid equally.

But….

There are certain factors that aren’t discriminatory that also determine pay rates of which I won’t get into as i will be here a while (plus often comments get taken the wrong way and I can’t be assed to defend myself again today)

Factors such as if the employer values things like education more than experience

Marc

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By *heltenhamBiGuyMan
over a year ago

Cheltenham

If a person is doing the same job and competently, then yes, pay should be equal

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By *ldgeezermeMan
over a year ago

Newcastle

You know the saying: "A woman's work is never done", that's your problem right there

RIP Sean Lock

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By *ellhungvweMan
over a year ago

Cheltenham

In my experience it is generally people who are good at their job think pay should be based on performance. Those who aren’t, don’t.

I think a lot of people don’t really understand what good performance is - typically people think it is about being competent. That is fine but it is really just table stakes. A high performer does things differently - even if it is just because they are easier to work with and so their overall impact is greater because there is less friction.

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town

"I believe that gender should not influence pay levels. I don't want to be paid the same as my male colleague just because I'm the owner of a vagina, I want to be paid more than him because I'm more experienced, have more qualifications, and can do the job in a more efficient and productive manner than he can!

Wise words.

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town

Lifes not fair.

It isn't, but if you have the opportunity to challenge it then do so. Even if it means getting a written warning and making an enemy of the head of HR"

Pick your battles wisely.

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By *hagTonight OP Man
over a year ago

From the land of haribos.

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By *amantha TSWoman
over a year ago

Swindon

Apologies, should have put it in context as I work within the IT department - but HR insist on only publiscising our roles on the educational recruiting sites.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Lifes not fair.

It isn't, but if you have the opportunity to challenge it then do so. Even if it means getting a written warning and making an enemy of the head of HR

Pick your battles wisely. "

Always, and take no prisoners and be brutal in your actions.

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By *hagTonight OP Man
over a year ago

From the land of haribos.

"Equal pay if an equal job but that falls down in say women's football or similar as the money available is based on commercial appeal & crowd size.

No reason to pay different rates if doing the same job to the same level. "
You are right there too

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By *irkby coupleCouple
over a year ago

Kirkby

I believe in everyone being paid the same for doing the same job and employing the best person for the job.

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By *ersiantugMan
over a year ago

Cardiff

Was the concept of 'equal pay' ever about work experience?

That's up to the employer.

Equal Pay is about equality when the experience matches. pt

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

The key difference is living in an off grid commune can be chosen with equal frequency and with equal impact by ant gender. But biological males cannot incubate and push out a baby. Only biological females can do that. This means that to produce the next generation, who will pay for our pensions and our national debt and work in the care homes that we may well reside in, female humans must take time out to push the babies out and offer some level of maternal care.

There's equal shared parental leave nowadays anyway - why do so few men take out the time to raise the offspring they have contributed half the genetic material towards? Why are women still overwhelmingly the ones doing the unpaid care of elderly relatives, in the 21st century? This double whammy of caring responsibilities impact women throughout their careers, on average. But if women did not do these things, society would be right up shit creek with too few youngsters coming through and too many elders left with inadequate care (and we know for sure that there's zero capacity for social care to take up that burden, don't we?)

I'm very fortunate to have a husband who has always taken equal share in child raising matters but it seems to be the default that I will do the bulk of care for my elderly dad who has dementia. My brother seems far less willing to work it out around his work and parenting, he just expects me to do it, as do doctors and social workers we've had involvement with. This is despite me also being physically disabled. So, I work FT as the main income earner; care for a primary school aged child in infants; care for my dad who lives an hour away; spend every day in pain and use a wheelchair and try not to have a nervous breakdown. Society is having it's cake and eating it from me, for one

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Equal pay should be a given, but equal on what basis? Who gets to decide one persons value over another? Is it the school you went to, the family you were born into? There is very little social mobility in the UK now so those things make way more difference than they should.

Value in terms of pay is most definitely not determined by the value of good or services produced through the labour of an individual. The wealthiest earn their income through the labour of others, landlords hardly lift a finger to earn their income. The monarchy just have to turn up and cut a ribbon occasionally.

Imagine all the people, Livin' life in peace.

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By *JB1954Man
over a year ago

Reading

I am retired. After apprenticeship. Spent 23 years as commissioning / installation engineer in car industry. There I was paid as I found out more than others. This due to knowledge / experience . Also at different companies. The last 20 years working for a company in a fully computerised factory( I go fed up travelling and living in hotels , guest houses).

I was paid the same as people who had only been there after their probation period 3 months.

Yet was given people to train . Even management said they would like to pay me more and others. But not allowed as company rules.

I will note this company had other factories . With different pay rates. But all had same rules as job. Same rate of pay for each named job.

This I think is very unfair.

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By *hagTonight OP Man
over a year ago

From the land of haribos.

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By *alandNitaCouple
over a year ago

Scunthorpe

The only thing that should dictate people's pay is their ability to do the job. I think that in low paid jobs, everyone gets paid the same. The differences tend to come more in higher paid carriers, and especially in jobs where people can negotiate their own pay and conditions.

Cal

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By *stellaWoman
over a year ago

London

Competence not experience.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

"Competence not experience. "

Trouble is, it's difficult to assess competence at the point of appointment, when initial salary is agreed. If someone starts at a different starting point than another for the same role, they will then be continually disadvantaged. Starting salaries should be based on empirical criteria, e.g. X years experience in similar role; ABC qualification etc.

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By *stellaWoman
over a year ago

London

"Competence not experience.

I don’t entirely agree. I’d start everyone the same regardless of experience.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

"Competence not experience.

I don’t entirely agree. I’d start everyone the same regardless of experience. "

You wouldn't have anyone in teaching if everyone moving jobs was appointed on the same salary. Years of experience are inextricably linked with the salary scales (which are no longer national, so it's pot luck if you move schools).

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By *ravelling_WilburyMan
over a year ago

Beverley

"Competence not experience.

I don’t entirely agree. I’d start everyone the same regardless of experience. "

If you do that, then you miss out on 'the best' talent, or at least negotiate a fast track based on performance.

We have a lad who has just come in as a graduate engineer, and he has revolutionised a part of our SAP programme. If we don't have a discussion with him soon around benefits, we will lose him. It's the way the cookie crumbles

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By *ornywelsh2sumCouple
over a year ago

Neath valley.

I hate the staggered crap for age. If starting wage is say £10/hr and a 18yr old is doing the same work as a new starter who is 40yr old i say the youngster should be payed the same. Kids start on stupidly low wages due to their age which is bollocks i say. Gender is irrelevent as man or woman should be payed the same for the same role and term of experience.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yes I do, but I also believe that performance related bonuses should also be used too.

Their will

Always be ones that go above and beyond at work.

Early starts, last minute over time. Getting stuck in and grafting. So their bonus should be reflected in their pay.

But we all turn up and all want to earn a decent wage. So we should all be paid the same once competent at it!

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

"Yes I do, but I also believe that performance related bonuses should also be used too.

Their will

Always be ones that go above and beyond at work.

Early starts, last minute over time. Getting stuck in and grafting. So their bonus should be reflected in their pay.

But we all turn up and all want to earn a decent wage. So we should all be paid the same once competent at it! "

PRP did absolutely nothing to enhance performance at the place we work. It just caused massive friction and bitching. It was implemented in a crappy way, but still, it didn't incentives people at all.

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By *9 kisses.Man
over a year ago

clacton on sea

I do yes,

But again it should be equal performance as well,

Like football players for instance, woman's football is in a different league to mens and it shows, I have two team leaders in my department, one, he is very hard working and organised the second spends most of her time on the phone playing games and Facebook and it's frustrating working with her, and yet they are on equal pay,

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It depends

I used to work at a company that had an equal pay policy and clarity on it.

In the office, two people doing the same job- 1 male, 1 female.

I can see that you're trying to present men as the poor little powerless victims here but why did SHE have to do all the child care?

So much evidence that work and pay is unbalanced in favour of men, especially white middle class men. Pretending otherwise doesn't change the reality.

I say this as a white middle class man. I know and understand my privilidge, but I actively try to work towards making things fairer and more equal.

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By *egDaySkipperMan
over a year ago

Liverpool

"I think pay should be based on performance. Everything else is irrelevant when it comes to pay in my opinion "

I would say this, but it has to be adjusted to persons ability to work.

Someone shouldn't get paid less just because they have a disability if they put just as much effort as the other people.

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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma

If a job is salaried yes, if a job is paid on hours worked, performance and outcomes it will naturally work itself out.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I don't believe in any form of equality when it comes to payments. Pay grades shouldn't exist.

The best performers, should get paid the best money. Regardless of sex, gender, colour etc

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

"I don't believe in any form of equality when it comes to payments. Pay grades shouldn't exist.

The best performers, should get paid the best money. Regardless of sex, gender, colour etc "

How would appoint new starters to starting salaries? How would you deal with a fresh school leaver/graduate compared to someone with 10yrs experience in the same field? The more experienced person may turn out to be less competent than the new school leaver, but you don't see that immediately usually.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don't believe in any form of equality when it comes to payments. Pay grades shouldn't exist.

The best performers, should get paid the best money. Regardless of sex, gender, colour etc

Interesting points. Perhaps low level pay grades would make sense, with bonus / rises included based on performance levels.

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town

Pay / package on merit? That would make for interesting behaviours.

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By *otSoPoshWoman
over a year ago

In a ball gown because that's how we roll in N. Devon

I think those damn wimmin need to get back in their box, stop moaning and start having the babies.

Leave the money stuff to the menfolk and knit something.

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By *alandNitaCouple
over a year ago

Scunthorpe

"I think pay should be based on performance. Everything else is irrelevant when it comes to pay in my opinion

I would say this, but it has to be adjusted to persons ability to work.

Someone shouldn't get paid less just because they have a disability if they put just as much effort as the other people."

I'm not sure that "effort" is necessarily a decent measure. If one person is much better at something than another person... then they will not be putting in the same effort for the same result.

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town

"I think those damn wimmin need to get back in their box, stop moaning and start having the babies.

Leave the money stuff to the menfolk and knit something."

Id like to have babies

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

"I don't believe in any form of equality when it comes to payments. Pay grades shouldn't exist.

The best performers, should get paid the best money. Regardless of sex, gender, colour etc

Interesting points. Perhaps low level pay grades would make sense, with bonus / rises included based on performance levels."

And now you need objective criteria for your bonus structure. Basically a form of pay scale, perhaps?!

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By *rder66Man
over a year ago

Tatooine

I think I should get paid more then anybody else and do less.

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By *ellhungvweMan
over a year ago

Cheltenham

"I don't believe in any form of equality when it comes to payments. Pay grades shouldn't exist.

The best performers, should get paid the best money. Regardless of sex, gender, colour etc

If the more experienced person is less competent than a new school leaver then you have much bigger issues than worrying about pay scales.

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By *otSoPoshWoman
over a year ago

In a ball gown because that's how we roll in N. Devon

"I think those damn wimmin need to get back in their box, stop moaning and start having the babies.

Leave the money stuff to the menfolk and knit something.

Id like to have babies"

I would have liked to.

Back in the day they'd have tossed me aside for being pointless

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yes I do, but I also believe that performance related bonuses should also be used too.

Their will

Always be ones that go above and beyond at work.

Early starts, last minute over time. Getting stuck in and grafting. So their bonus should be reflected in their pay.

But we all turn up and all want to earn a decent wage. So we should all be paid the same once competent at it!

That’s a shame. It works at ours, but the ones that bitch and moan are the ones who don’t pull their weight. They just get told to work harder and climb back in their box.

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By *ersiantugMan
over a year ago

Cardiff

'Competence over experience' is very flawed as a model for everyone, which is why it's very rarely used across the whole workforce.

The talent/ability level would have to be as 'keen' as in football - and even then experience factors in their pay! Demand does too. Some businesses do 'headhunt', but again it is not the norm.

And would it be contract based over years, like in football. That doesn't work for everyone.

Other problems?

It just doesn't work for the vast majority of jobs, where people perform in a similar fashion and people can be up and down but must be supported without pressure. It would be almost an arbitrary decision in many jobs. There is no doubt that select pay adds to pressure, which can be exploited in some jobs. (It is argued that that increase in GPs pay was exploited by an unwanted extra workload, and many would rather have less pay. So many could be expected to over-work, which has a load of extra issues that stop this being the norm. People can also be pressured into decisions they are not happy with.)

It is very similar to Performance Related Pay, which is used more, and is m ore often dealt with by a 'bonus system' for a lot people.

Bring it into the general workforce and it can cause resentment all around.

How do you reduce someone's pay if they turn out to be less of the performer?

Do you pay other more-talented staff in alignment, or does everyone have an employment agent like a footballer?

It can be more costly for businesses because of the above.

It becomes much harder for the less wealthy businesses to traditional give pay-rises due to loyalty and time served.

Is it to be hidden from all?

Because it will fluctuate over time (according to the various staff rates) and thus be harder on forward accounting.

There are likely more...

So this is largely a managerial thing - and it happens anyway. Just not all the time.

The QUESTION remains, when you COMPARE people statistically, do women and minorities make as much as age/experience/ability-equivalent white men?

That question of equality always remains regardless. And it would at recruitment level, even if everyone had a type of performance-related ability-based pay. pt

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

"I don't believe in any form of equality when it comes to payments. Pay grades shouldn't exist.

The best performers, should get paid the best money. Regardless of sex, gender, colour etc

If the more experienced person is less competent than a new school leaver then you have much bigger issues than worrying about pay scales."

Competence has nothing to do with duration of service. I have worked with many incompetent, long serving teachers. Similarly, I have worked with many highly competent early career teachers.

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By *rispyDuckMan
over a year ago

Chinese Takeaway near you

If you are doing the same job, at the same high standard, with the same expectations then yes I believe in Equal pay

I used to work in a place with mainly women. We were all paid the same all was good. However whenever there was heavy boxes/ to move it was always “oh can our strong men help with this please”. I was happy to help initially but eventually I refused and mentioned I had done it enough times. We all get paid the same here, both the ladies and men should do the manual labour not just us the ‘fellas’

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By *ersiantugMan
over a year ago

Cardiff

"If you are doing the same job, at the same high standard, with the same expectations then yes I believe in Equal pay

----In fairness it's been shown many times (often to humorous effect) that most men have no-idea exactly how much of life's general 'housework' is done by women. And it happens at work too. They do work men simply do not see (including quite heavy work), and frankly they just get on with it.

Imo a lot of women are quite strong and pitch-in anyway without grumbling, but I wouldn't grumble too much unless your back is bad - then (if it's not in your contract) you are entitled to complain.

---pt

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

"If you are doing the same job, at the same high standard, with the same expectations then yes I believe in Equal pay

The HSE would ask the question "does it need to be lifted manually or is there an alternative that is safer?"

Provide lifting equipment is the answer to that. Everyone benefits.

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By *ersiantugMan
over a year ago

Cardiff

"If you are doing the same job, at the same high standard, with the same expectations then yes I believe in Equal pay

The HSE would ask the question "does it need to be lifted manually or is there an alternative that is safer?"

Provide lifting equipment is the answer to that. Everyone benefits. "

--I doubt he's talking about things that regular and heavy. Actually, two people are meant to move a lot of things. So just requesting support could help.---pt

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town

Top trumps springs to mind

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

"Top trumps springs to mind "

It'd be fun at annual review time, certainly!

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By *rdimpsMan
over a year ago

Hull

No.

At present i am doing a job i have 40 years experience of and a young giggly girl with two degrees, who is hopeless with no clue is earning the same.

Its like working in a creche.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

"No.

At present i am doing a job i have 40 years experience of and a young giggly girl with two degrees, who is hopeless with no clue is earning the same.

Its like working in a creche."

Wow, the casual sexism is palpable

Is this the place where I slag off my middle aged male colleagues?!

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By *rispyDuckMan
over a year ago

Chinese Takeaway near you

"If you are doing the same job, at the same high standard, with the same expectations then yes I believe in Equal pay

The HSE would ask the question "does it need to be lifted manually or is there an alternative that is safer?"

Provide lifting equipment is the answer to that. Everyone benefits.

--I doubt he's talking about things that regular and heavy. Actually, two people are meant to move a lot of things. So just requesting support could help.---pt"

I do get the whole manual handling stuff ‘move only if necessary etc’ & do appreciate women also do their fair share of it

My comment was just in response to equal pay topic OP had asked. I was stating all was equal where I previously worked till manual handling was involved then it was ‘we need the strong men for this task’. If we paid equally shouldn’t it be everyone for the same task not just the strong men?

I don’t work there anymore so it don’t bother me lol

and I don’t mind doing odd jobs (once in a while) I know my lady colleagues might find more challenging. I am a gentleman after all (once a month) haha

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By *ersiantugMan
over a year ago

Cardiff

A lot of once-experiences jobs (like local bank local managers) are given to the right kind of 'alpha' kids now (I mean from about 17 to 27 years-old depending on the job) because...

A) kids are cheap

B) They are more compliant (ie used to standing in line and doing what they are told).

C) They have less knowledge of when things aren't right (which means less empathy for what they don't know), and are happier repeating "no" over and over. They are less likely to complain, and are in-general happier changing jobs.

It's much rarer to see much younger people 'coming in' on the same wage you would have been on.

Young people are cheaper and easier to exploit.

--pt

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By *elvet RopeMan
over a year ago

by the big field

"No.

At present i am doing a job i have 40 years experience of and a young giggly girl with two degrees, who is hopeless with no clue is earning the same.

Its like working in a creche.

Wow, the casual sexism is palpable

Is this the place where I slag off my middle aged male colleagues?! "

If they're on the same or higher than you, with less ability to do the job- then why not? Not sure the comment is sexist, just because its a female?

I used to work with two male apprentice types, one was several years older and happy to muck in and graft- the other was a useless lazy shit...not sure if it was an age thing or he's just generally a useless lazy shit or if it was a similar age female would have any different outcome (although we did notice the teens and early twenty somthings couldn't do more than 5 minutes work without their bloody phones coming out)?

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By *hagTonight OP Man
over a year ago

From the land of haribos.

"I do that and it doesnt matter what gender, race etc one is, for doing the same kind of labor, if they have the equal kind of experience.

What is your view of it?

Does also once experience in the same role determine if they will get more pay too?

Experience should not count UNLESS that experience allows them to do the job either better or faster and the other is serving some sort of trial period or apprenticeship.

e.g. Why should a leaflet distributor who distributes 1000 leaflets a day get less than someone who distributes 1000 a day ? ( assuming no other responsibilities are at play )"
They should get the same pay as well

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

"No.

At present i am doing a job i have 40 years experience of and a young giggly girl with two degrees, who is hopeless with no clue is earning the same.

Its like working in a creche.

Wow, the casual sexism is palpable

Is this the place where I slag off my middle aged male colleagues?!

If they're on the same or higher than you, with less ability to do the job- then why not? Not sure the comment is sexist, just because its a female?

Describing them stereotypically as giggling and other language infantilises them suggests sexist to me.

As it happens, my middle aged male colleagues (immediate level to me) are all lovely and we have an absolute blast. Some on my team checked out a long time ago, unfortunately.

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By *ex HolesMan
over a year ago

Up North

Those lazy women bricklayers get on my tits

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By *ortyairCouple
over a year ago

Wallasey

I don't necessarily believe in equal pay, even when individuals are doing the same work.

Sometimes it depends on market factors and if one individual is worth more in a particular marke, than another in the same market, then they should be paid more.

That's just common sense. You only have to look at sports. Men generally get paid more for competing in the same sport because they are worth more in that market. Simple x

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By *nkyCplCouple
over a year ago

Northampton

Think the gender pay gap is nonsense.

Pay should be based on performance and money earned for whatever business you work for.

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By *ortyairCouple
over a year ago

Wallasey

"Think the gender pay gap is nonsense.

Pay should be based on performance and money earned for whatever business you work for.

"
That haha x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Equal pay when you take a job, but then it should be performance based

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By *emorefridaCouple
over a year ago

La la land

There is substantial evidence that the gender pay gap exists. The causes vary, but in my institution it was because men will ask for promotion well before females do. This was noted and now we have how do apply for promotion seminars. The system of being promoted is now well defined. The pay gap has now reduced, it's not as big a conspiracy as some like to make out

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By *nkyCplCouple
over a year ago

Northampton

"There is substantial evidence that the gender pay gap exists. The causes vary, but in my institution it was because men will ask for promotion well before females do. This was noted and now we have how do apply for promotion seminars. The system of being promoted is now well defined. The pay gap has now reduced, it's not as big a conspiracy as some like to make out "

Can you please point me to the evidence? I don’t see how they could actually prove it as the amount of data needed is just too much.

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By *ortyairCouple
over a year ago

Wallasey

"Equal pay when you take a job, but then it should be performance based "
Don't necessarily agree. Two individuals can do the exact same job but one may be worth more to the market place. They may generate more revenues and as such should be paid more, regardless of performance.

It would be ridiculous to pay them the same. The person who was 'worth' more would just take themselves elsewhere to earn what they are worth.

Look at the difference in pay between the semester of football players, tennis players, boxers and so on. Here guys are always going to get paid more, they are worth more to their particular market x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It should be based on performance.

However, if you have two employees, same experience, education, etc. And the only difference is they're gender then they should be paid the same.

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By *nkyCplCouple
over a year ago

Northampton

"Equal pay when you take a job, but then it should be performance based Don't necessarily agree. Two individuals can do the exact same job but one may be worth more to the market place. They may generate more revenues and as such should be paid more, regardless of performance.

It would be ridiculous to pay them the same. The person who was 'worth' more would just take themselves elsewhere to earn what they are worth.

Look at the difference in pay between the semester of football players, tennis players, boxers and so on. Here guys are always going to get paid more, they are worth more to their particular market x"

Spot on bud.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It would be ridiculous to pay them the same. The person who was 'worth' more would just take themselves elsewhere to earn what they are worth.

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By *irty_DeedsMan
over a year ago

Teesside

It would be ridiculous to pay them the same. The person who was 'worth' more would just take themselves elsewhere to earn what they are worth.

Look at the difference in pay between the semester of football players, tennis players, boxers and so on. Here guys are always going to get paid more, they are worth more to their particular market x

But how would you know one is worth more to the market place if they haven't done the job before abd they are coming with same skill set, experience.. Just different genital? That first year would differentiate the high performer, who should get higher pay rise.. IMO "
In sport its easy, womens leagues just don't make as much money and in the case of some like the nba, are actually subsidised by the male league.

I see people crying about it on behalf of female athletes often yet won't get off their arse and support those women by paying for the product.

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By *emorefridaCouple
over a year ago

La la land

Can you please point me to the evidence? I don’t see how they could actually prove it as the amount of data needed is just too much."

Let me get back to you, trying to think how to give it without giving my workplace away. But we have evidenced it and that's with proper statisticians not like some face cream advert stats either

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By *ortyairCouple
over a year ago

Wallasey

It would be ridiculous to pay them the same. The person who was 'worth' more would just take themselves elsewhere to earn what they are worth.

Look at the difference in pay between the semester of football players, tennis players, boxers and so on. Here guys are always going to get paid more, they are worth more to their particular market x

I don't agree. Take football, male footballers will always get paid more than female footballers of the same level.

This is simply because the male football market has revenues which are astronomically higher than those of the female game. Male players earn more because they generate more money. Therefore male players are worth more to the market.

You know how much a player is worth because they have been watched, coached and played for more than a decade before they play professionally.

So in this case it is purely down to market forces. Men are paid more because their market is much more wealthy. You cannot pay female players the same if they are not generating similar income streams and they are simply not.

Men are worth more than woman, from a financial, economic and business viewpoint in football. Can't give females the same if they aren't making the same profits x

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By *nkyCplCouple
over a year ago

Northampton

Can you please point me to the evidence? I don’t see how they could actually prove it as the amount of data needed is just too much.

Let me get back to you, trying to think how to give it without giving my workplace away. But we have evidenced it and that's with proper statisticians not like some face cream advert stats either

Be good if you could please as honestly can’t see how they can get enough granular data to prove it.

You’d have to consider role, experience, qualifications, hours worked, performance, time off, money earned for business etc etc etc.

Always up for learning though so thanks matey.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Can you please point me to the evidence? I don’t see how they could actually prove it as the amount of data needed is just too much.

Let me get back to you, trying to think how to give it without giving my workplace away. But we have evidenced it and that's with proper statisticians not like some face cream advert stats either

My company also does analysis and provides updates internally... Again the gap exists, but is apparently being closed. There is a lot of work taking place to address the issue - most importantly having a more diverse candidate pool and encouraging females to apply for those rare senior leadership positions

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By *nkyCplCouple
over a year ago

Northampton

It would be ridiculous to pay them the same. The person who was 'worth' more would just take themselves elsewhere to earn what they are worth.

Look at the difference in pay between the semester of football players, tennis players, boxers and so on. Here guys are always going to get paid more, they are worth more to their particular market x

I don't agree. Take football, male footballers will always get paid more than female footballers of the same level.

You know how much a player is worth because they have been watched, coached and played for more than a decade before they play professionally.

Men are worth more than woman, from a financial, economic and business viewpoint in football. Can't give females the same if they aren't making the same profits x"

To sort of drill this point home, Ronda Rousey was by far the highest paid fighter in the UFC in her prime. Purely down to revenue made for the business.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It would be ridiculous to pay them the same. The person who was 'worth' more would just take themselves elsewhere to earn what they are worth.

Look at the difference in pay between the semester of football players, tennis players, boxers and so on. Here guys are always going to get paid more, they are worth more to their particular market x

I don't agree. Take football, male footballers will always get paid more than female footballers of the same level.

You know how much a player is worth because they have been watched, coached and played for more than a decade before they play professionally.

Men are worth more than woman, from a financial, economic and business viewpoint in football. Can't give females the same if they aren't making the same profits x"

Yeah i see that.. But then imagine if football had been accessible for all from the very start, instead of women joining after how every many years it has been going for .. Where would we be now... Female football has a bloody long way to go

I'm hoping my niece will have a successful football careeer one day.. I can't imagine them ever achieving equity unfortunately

My perspective is from a business environment, rather than sports

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By *elvet RopeMan
over a year ago

by the big field

"No.

At present i am doing a job i have 40 years experience of and a young giggly girl with two degrees, who is hopeless with no clue is earning the same.

Its like working in a creche.

Wow, the casual sexism is palpable

Is this the place where I slag off my middle aged male colleagues?!

If they're on the same or higher than you, with less ability to do the job- then why not? Not sure the comment is sexist, just because its a female?

Describing them stereotypically as giggling and other language infantilises them suggests sexist to me.

As it happens, my middle aged male colleagues (immediate level to me) are all lovely and we have an absolute blast. Some on my team checked out a long time ago, unfortunately. "

Behind every stereotype is a fair degree of reality, so she could pretty much of been a dizzy, giggling, immature girl who just happened to have the right academic qualifications but no real clue. We all know the world isn't black and white and occasionally we get lumbered with someone at world who just mangles your swede- yet the bosses seem oblivious to their uselessness

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

It would be ridiculous to pay them the same. The person who was 'worth' more would just take themselves elsewhere to earn what they are worth.

Look at the difference in pay between the semester of football players, tennis players, boxers and so on. Here guys are always going to get paid more, they are worth more to their particular market x

I don't agree. Take football, male footballers will always get paid more than female footballers of the same level.

You know how much a player is worth because they have been watched, coached and played for more than a decade before they play professionally.

Men are worth more than woman, from a financial, economic and business viewpoint in football. Can't give females the same if they aren't making the same profits x

I'm hoping my niece will have a successful football careeer one day.. I can't imagine them ever achieving equity unfortunately

My perspective is from a business environment, rather than sports"

Exactly, Midnight. If we're going to bang on about football, let's bang on about how the (all male) FA banned women from playing football on FA pitches and that ban remained for fifty years. Prior to the ban, women's teams were bringing in huge gates, as big or bigger than the men.

I had to stop playing competitive football at age 11 because there were no girls teams and the FA prohibited boys and girls playing together after age 11.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/jun/13/how-the-fa-banned-womens-football-in-1921-and-tried-to-justify-it

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By *ortyairCouple
over a year ago

Wallasey

It would be ridiculous to pay them the same. The person who was 'worth' more would just take themselves elsewhere to earn what they are worth.

Look at the difference in pay between the semester of football players, tennis players, boxers and so on. Here guys are always going to get paid more, they are worth more to their particular market x

I don't agree. Take football, male footballers will always get paid more than female footballers of the same level.

You know how much a player is worth because they have been watched, coached and played for more than a decade before they play professionally.

Men are worth more than woman, from a financial, economic and business viewpoint in football. Can't give females the same if they aren't making the same profits x

I'm hoping my niece will have a successful football careeer one day.. I can't imagine them ever achieving equity unfortunately

My perspective is from a business environment, rather than sports"
Think those that run the game would say football isn't just a sport its big business haha.

It's just supply and demand. Tennis is another sport where woman have asked for the same prize money as the guys, despite the guys generating more revenues than the females.

This is also a bit cheeky considering female tennis players play for a maximum of three sets whereas guys play a maximum of five.

It's not personal, it's just business

.. x

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By *nkyCplCouple
over a year ago

Northampton

"Yeah i see that.. But then imagine if football had been accessible for all from the very start, instead of women joining after how every many years it has been going for .. Where would we be now... Female football has a bloody long way to go

I'm hoping my niece will have a successful football careeer one day.. I can't imagine them ever achieving equity unfortunately

My perspective is from a business environment, rather than sports"

Even then I doubt female football would be as popular as men’s as it’s just a better standard in the male game. Faster, stronger, more technical etc.

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By *ixed MisterMan
over a year ago

London

This is a weird 1 for me.

Pay shouldn't be determined by race, sex, beliefs etc...

I kind of agree with same role, same pay, to a point. There's too many variables though, the main 1 for me being, negotiation. I do a similar job to 2 other people at work, but i have negotiated my wage a few times and perks that I felt I should get, and I got them. Should they then be rolled out to others automatically? I don't think it should.

I negotiated with facts based on my work performance to show why I believed I should be paid what I am, and my boss agreed, if they do the same it get more then fair play to them.

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By *nkyCplCouple
over a year ago

Northampton

"This is a weird 1 for me.

Pay shouldn't be determined by race, sex, beliefs etc...

I negotiated with facts based on my work performance to show why I believed I should be paid what I am, and my boss agreed, if they do the same it get more then fair play to them."

I’ve never had the balls to ask for a raise so fairnpkay pal! Clearly know your worth.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think over 50 years of communism(human experiment) has proven that 'equal pay' just does not work. Economically and socially.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

"No.

At present i am doing a job i have 40 years experience of and a young giggly girl with two degrees, who is hopeless with no clue is earning the same.

Its like working in a creche.

Wow, the casual sexism is palpable

Is this the place where I slag off my middle aged male colleagues?!

If they're on the same or higher than you, with less ability to do the job- then why not? Not sure the comment is sexist, just because its a female?

Describing them stereotypically as giggling and other language infantilises them suggests sexist to me.

As it happens, my middle aged male colleagues (immediate level to me) are all lovely and we have an absolute blast. Some on my team checked out a long time ago, unfortunately.

Why are immature "boys" not described with words that denigrate aspects of their personality?

Lazy has been used to describe some young male workers on the thread. Fine, lazy is not a gendered stereotype. When do we see "giggling" attributed to young males?

This sort of language in the workplace is why we have issues. Men are far less likely to be described in terms of their personalities (e.g. giggly) and/or appearance compared to women and men are more likely to be described in terms of their competence (e.g. lazy), compared to women.

Attributes that are deemed positive in men (decisiveness, ability to delegate effectively etc) are often given negative connotations if women demonstrate them. Women are not decisive, but stubborn. They are not delegators, but are instead bossy. Etc. This has been borne out by research time and again.

Interesting, no?