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What is non binary etc

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By *antasyrealm OP   Couple
over a year ago

Congleton

Just what is non binary. Gender neutral etc. Surely we are all just male or female.

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By *hilledGuyClactonMan
over a year ago

Little clacton

Just another label that don`t really mean anything

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By *olly_chromaticTV/TS
over a year ago

Stockport

Something that is very meaningful to the people it concerns, but impossible to explain to people that don't want to know about it.

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By *owthen99Man
over a year ago

Attenborough

It's a code isn't it? Oh wait that's binary! it's a load of ?? for the woke brigades load of twoddle if you ask me, your either straight gay or bi and it's as simple as that ??????

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By *olly_chromaticTV/TS
over a year ago

Stockport


"It's a code isn't it? Oh wait that's binary! it's a load of ?? for the woke brigades load of twoddle if you ask me, your either straight gay or bi and it's as simple as that ??????"

Yeah. No. Think of it this way: straight, gay, bi are all sexuality labels. They're who you prefer to do. And for many people sexuality isn't set in stone anyway, it can change with age, or day by day, or just according to individual attraction.

Non-binary is a gender label. Male, female, trans female, trans male, bi-gender, non-binary, gender queer, agender... Gender is who you are, and is only loosely connected to who you prefer to do. And for some people is absolutely set in stone, for some people can evolve and change.

If your brain aligns perfectly with the shape of body you were born with, and with the way that you were brought up, then it is quite possible that you will be totally unable to ever properly understand how some people feel for whom their gender is a more complex matter. But the way you feel in no way makes it less real the way that they feel.

Personally I've never been able to understand how anybody could possibly get worked up over football and have a maniacal obsession with supporting one team or another. But that doesn't mean that I deny the reality of how football can be at the very core of some people's identities.

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By *ecadent_DevonMan
over a year ago

Okehampton


"It's a code isn't it? Oh wait that's binary! it's a load of ?? for the woke brigades load of twoddle if you ask me, your either straight gay or bi and it's as simple as that ??????

Yeah. No. Think of it this way: straight, gay, bi are all sexuality labels. They're who you prefer to do. And for many people sexuality isn't set in stone anyway, it can change with age, or day by day, or just according to individual attraction.

Non-binary is a gender label. Male, female, trans female, trans male, bi-gender, non-binary, gender queer, agender... Gender is who you are, and is only loosely connected to who you prefer to do. And for some people is absolutely set in stone, for some people can evolve and change.

If your brain aligns perfectly with the shape of body you were born with, and with the way that you were brought up, then it is quite possible that you will be totally unable to ever properly understand how some people feel for whom their gender is a more complex matter. But the way you feel in no way makes it less real the way that they feel.

Personally I've never been able to understand how anybody could possibly get worked up over football and have a maniacal obsession with supporting one team or another. But that doesn't mean that I deny the reality of how football can be at the very core of some people's identities."

Well described

I have been to war, the vast majority of people in the world have experienced war through their television screens. Our perceptions of what something feels like are based upon our experiences. I can no more understand the lived experience of someone that states they are non binary than they can understand my statement “I have been to war” (unless of course they have), OP. Forget what you are taught in the media, accept people for their lived experience and know that their opinion is the one that counts, to them.

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By *ussylover222Man
over a year ago

wigan

They ( the op) obviously does want to know about it, just because someone doesn’t understand something doesn’t mean they don’t want to understand it.

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By *penbicoupleCouple
over a year ago

Northampton


"Just what is non binary. Gender neutral etc. Surely we are all just male or female. "

I'm hoping this is irony, but I guess not.

No, we are not "just male or female." The very existence of intersex people proves that is not the case.

Aside from that, I'm not sure if you're gemuinely interested in answers or not, but they are not difficult to find.

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By *penbicoupleCouple
over a year ago

Northampton


"It's a code isn't it? Oh wait that's binary! it's a load of ?? for the woke brigades load of twoddle if you ask me, your either straight gay or bi and it's as simple as that ??????"

Oh, bless your heart.

It's not even worth unpicming the numerous embarrassing errors in your short comment. However, I will just say that dismissing something as "woke" is lazy (and irrelevant) and probably just an updated version of the stupid whinge "It's PC gone made!"

I always feel embarrassed for people who take that approach.

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By *MisschiefxTV/TS
over a year ago

London

Do you genuinely want to know?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Something that is very meaningful to the people it concerns, but impossible to explain to people that don't want to know about it."

Best response ever

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Just what is non binary. Gender neutral etc. Surely we are all just male or female. "

I believe you are your technicaly right at a human biology level. (Probably somone will come along and shoot me down here)

But we’re not talking about that when it about gender free, or non binary.

It’s about someone who doesn’t want to be referred to as a woman or man. It’s not about what sex they were technically born as. That’s how I see it.

It’s someone who is practicing their freedom of choice they are often told they have….

*my limited option. Hope this helps in someway op.

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By *nywhichway6969Man
over a year ago

coalville

Just another phrase for people who dont want to be labelled but want to be labelled

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By *it-chrissyTV/TS
over a year ago

sw. london

maybe if you actually meet non-binary people, y'know, have conversations, get to know them a little. without trying to make them justify themselves constantly.

maybe then you'd understand better x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"They ( the op) obviously does want to know about it, just because someone doesn’t understand something doesn’t mean they don’t want to understand it."

I don't think the way they wrote the post indicates they're open to what it means to others tbh

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Just what is non binary. Gender neutral etc. Surely we are all just male or female.

I believe you are your technicaly right at a human biology level. (Probably somone will come along and shoot me down here)

But we’re not talking about that when it about gender free, or non binary.

It’s about someone who doesn’t want to be referred to as a woman or man. It’s not about what sex they were technically born as. That’s how I see it.

It’s someone who is practicing their freedom of choice they are often told they have….

*my limited option. Hope this helps in someway op. "

This is how my son’s ex partner described themselves

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By *ablo minibar123Woman
over a year ago

.


"They ( the op) obviously does want to know about it, just because someone doesn’t understand something doesn’t mean they don’t want to understand it.

I don't think the way they wrote the post indicates they're open to what it means to others tbh"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Google is your friend unless you just wanted to stir?

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham


"Something that is very meaningful to the people it concerns, but impossible to explain to people that don't want to know about it."

This

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

[Removed by poster at 28/08/22 08:23:35]

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham


"They ( the op) obviously does want to know about it, just because someone doesn’t understand something doesn’t mean they don’t want to understand it."

Yes. Very evident from the fact that they have come back and responded to precisely zero comments on the thread they started.

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By *rincess peachWoman
over a year ago

shits creek


"It's a code isn't it? Oh wait that's binary! it's a load of ?? for the woke brigades load of twoddle if you ask me, your either straight gay or bi and it's as simple as that ??????"

Ah yes, yes of course it is. Twoddle. *insert disappointed sigh*

I say the same about grime music because I don't understand nor have the desire to understand it. Sounds like noise to me by some young folk who have no idea what music is. But ya know, if I actually properly listened I'm sure I could hear. It's my own unwillingness and tunnel vision that makes it so difficult for me to entertain. To me it's noise. To others it's what motivates them, what gets them through the day, offers them a belonging and place where they feel content. Who the fuck am I to disregard their experience of it based on my own view? Nobody. Fucking nobody.

It's OK not to understand something, it's not OK to be an ignorant spunkbubble about it.

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By *ablo minibar123Woman
over a year ago

.

To me non binary makes life more interesting, makes me curious to know more about someone and how they see themselves ect.

In the long run if it makes someone happier and makes them more fulfilled in the life that they lead then surely that's all that matters.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"It's a code isn't it? Oh wait that's binary! it's a load of ?? for the woke brigades load of twoddle if you ask me, your either straight gay or bi and it's as simple as that ??????

Ah yes, yes of course it is. Twoddle. *insert disappointed sigh*

I say the same about grime music because I don't understand nor have the desire to understand it. Sounds like noise to me by some young folk who have no idea what music is. But ya know, if I actually properly listened I'm sure I could hear. It's my own unwillingness and tunnel vision that makes it so difficult for me to entertain. To me it's noise. To others it's what motivates them, what gets them through the day, offers them a belonging and place where they feel content. Who the fuck am I to disregard their experience of it based on my own view? Nobody. Fucking nobody.

It's OK not to understand something, it's not OK to be an ignorant spunkbubble about it."

Very well said….. I didn’t understand it until I met my son’s ex partner and they informed me very well the way they were and there feelings it can be difficult to get your head around it until it’s explained in-depth… I’m old school but I respect them with how they must feel inside their body and mind….

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Just what is non binary. Gender neutral etc. Surely we are all just male or female.

I believe you are your technicaly right at a human biology level. (Probably somone will come along and shoot me down here)

But we’re not talking about that when it about gender free, or non binary.

It’s about someone who doesn’t want to be referred to as a woman or man. It’s not about what sex they were technically born as. That’s how I see it.

It’s someone who is practicing their freedom of choice they are often told they have….

*my limited option. Hope this helps in someway op.

This is how my son’s ex partner described themselves "

I’m fine with it all, it has no impact on my life if my pal Dave who I knew as a guy wants to now be known by another name and wants me to think of him/her or them as a woman or something else. I’m a gamer, I’ve had loads of usernames

Signed - Woody.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's a term some people will use if the genuinely do not feel female or male.

It's a term other people will use to describe themselves to try and be different. The type who identify as "look at me!"

In either case, if it doesn't impact my life then I'm not particularly fussed. Not going to go out of my way to deliberately offend someone. If I spent every waking moment telling people that I think things they say or do are fucking ridiculous I'd get nothing done.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"It's a code isn't it? Oh wait that's binary! it's a load of ?? for the woke brigades load of twoddle if you ask me, your either straight gay or bi and it's as simple as that ??????

Yeah. No. Think of it this way: straight, gay, bi are all sexuality labels. They're who you prefer to do. And for many people sexuality isn't set in stone anyway, it can change with age, or day by day, or just according to individual attraction.

Non-binary is a gender label. Male, female, trans female, trans male, bi-gender, non-binary, gender queer, agender... Gender is who you are, and is only loosely connected to who you prefer to do. And for some people is absolutely set in stone, for some people can evolve and change.

If your brain aligns perfectly with the shape of body you were born with, and with the way that you were brought up, then it is quite possible that you will be totally unable to ever properly understand how some people feel for whom their gender is a more complex matter. But the way you feel in no way makes it less real the way that they feel.

Personally I've never been able to understand how anybody could possibly get worked up over football and have a maniacal obsession with supporting one team or another. But that doesn't mean that I deny the reality of how football can be at the very core of some people's identities.

Well described

I have been to war, the vast majority of people in the world have experienced war through their television screens. Our perceptions of what something feels like are based upon our experiences. I can no more understand the lived experience of someone that states they are non binary than they can understand my statement “I have been to war” (unless of course they have), OP. Forget what you are taught in the media, accept people for their lived experience and know that their opinion is the one that counts, to them. "

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By *idnight RamblerMan
over a year ago

Pershore

From a strict medical standpoint, gender is binary i.e. anatomy, reproduction. There are cases where gender is ambiguous at birth, but they are rare. What is meant by non-binary is a person's perception of their own gender which may not coincide with their physical anatomy. For society at large, it's a question of whether we accept the narrow medical definition of a broader, personalised definition.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"…..

I have been to war, the vast majority of people in the world have experienced war through their television screens. Our perceptions of what something feels like are based upon our experiences. I can no more understand the lived experience of someone that states they are non binary than they can understand my statement “I have been to war” (unless of course they have), OP. Forget what you are taught in the media, accept people for their lived experience and know that their opinion is the one that counts, to them. "

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *aunchy RaccoonsCouple
over a year ago

Exeter

We've always thought this could become a dangerous game as surly there are guys out there will use it to identify as what they want just so that they can go sniffing about in ladies toilets.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"We've always thought this could become a dangerous game as surly there are guys out there will use it to identify as what they want just so that they can go sniffing about in ladies toilets."

....you don't say.....?

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By *aliceWoman
over a year ago

Birmingham


"From a strict medical standpoint, gender is binary i.e. anatomy, reproduction. There are cases where gender is ambiguous at birth, but they are rare. What is meant by non-binary is a person's perception of their own gender which may not coincide with their physical anatomy. For society at large, it's a question of whether we accept the narrow medical definition of a broader, personalised definition."

so gender (though you seem to mean sex) is binary, except when it isn't.

From a strict medical standpoint.

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By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)


"Just what is non binary. Gender neutral etc. Surely we are all just male or female. "

Surely? No.

If it was a case of surely, then there wouldn’t be non binary folk. Their very existence proves that it is real.

Mainstream education does a huge disservice on a number of topics, gender and sex is one of them.

Many cultures in history and in the modern world recognise at least 3 genders. It seems that western culture with our reliance on science and ignorance of spirit and emotional intelligence that struggle with the concept of gender diversity, yet it’s a very real thing.

If you don’t know or understand, do some research and educate yourself, it’s not a bad thing to not know but being certain in ignorance isn’t a positive.

If someone tells you their lived experience, listen to them. Being non binary is one of those things.

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By *amantha TSWoman
over a year ago

Swindon


"We've always thought this could become a dangerous game as surly there are guys out there will use it to identify as what they want just so that they can go sniffing about in ladies toilets."

Why is this argument always used? How about ladies identifying as NB so they can go sniffing in blokes toilets? (One thing I've found since transitioning is the queues are longer for the ladies, where's the attraction in that?)

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By *idnight RamblerMan
over a year ago

Pershore


"From a strict medical standpoint, gender is binary i.e. anatomy, reproduction. There are cases where gender is ambiguous at birth, but they are rare. What is meant by non-binary is a person's perception of their own gender which may not coincide with their physical anatomy. For society at large, it's a question of whether we accept the narrow medical definition of a broader, personalised definition.

so gender (though you seem to mean sex) is binary, except when it isn't.

From a strict medical standpoint.

"

You could see it that way, yes. It comes down to interpretation.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"We've always thought this could become a dangerous game as surly there are guys out there will use it to identify as what they want just so that they can go sniffing about in ladies toilets.

Why is this argument always used? How about ladies identifying as NB so they can go sniffing in blokes toilets? (One thing I've found since transitioning is the queues are longer for the ladies, where's the attraction in that?)"

Broadly speaking, women do not sexually assault men.

So men have very little to fear from a NB woman on their toilets.

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By *amantha TSWoman
over a year ago

Swindon


"From a strict medical standpoint, gender is binary i.e. anatomy, reproduction. There are cases where gender is ambiguous at birth, but they are rare. What is meant by non-binary is a person's perception of their own gender which may not coincide with their physical anatomy. For society at large, it's a question of whether we accept the narrow medical definition of a broader, personalised definition."

Medical professionals have agreed that sex is assigned at birth based on the sexual reproductive organs observed (ie do you have a penis or not). They have also agreed that gender is an identity which goes further than just the physical attributes we have.

Some starter reading, though there's loads out there - https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

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By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)


"We've always thought this could become a dangerous game as surly there are guys out there will use it to identify as what they want just so that they can go sniffing about in ladies toilets."

If someone wanted to put a dress on in public just to get into a toilet, then firstly, they’re braver than any sexual aggressor, secondly I’d wonder what they think happens in toilets, thirdly it completely ignores that lesbians use gender specific bathroom spaces and no one questions their sexual behaviour…

This argument against trans folks who just want to use appropriate bathroom spaces is a complete nonsense

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Surely we can be whatever we want to be. It makes no difference to any of our lives what labels or pronouns people would like to use so why even question it? Live and let live.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"We've always thought this could become a dangerous game as surly there are guys out there will use it to identify as what they want just so that they can go sniffing about in ladies toilets.

If someone wanted to put a dress on in public just to get into a toilet, then firstly, they’re braver than any sexual aggressor, secondly I’d wonder what they think happens in toilets, thirdly it completely ignores that lesbians use gender specific bathroom spaces and no one questions their sexual behaviour…

This argument against trans folks who just want to use appropriate bathroom spaces is a complete nonsense "

Lesbians are women.

Women are ,statistically, far less likely to sexually assault anyone.

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By *idnight RamblerMan
over a year ago

Pershore


"Surely we can be whatever we want to be. It makes no difference to any of our lives what labels or pronouns people would like to use so why even question it? Live and let live."

Well yes, but where do you draw the line? What if somebody wants to be identified as a budgerigar or as Richard III?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 28/08/22 09:35:01]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Surely we can be whatever we want to be. It makes no difference to any of our lives what labels or pronouns people would like to use so why even question it? Live and let live.

Well yes, but where do you draw the line? What if somebody wants to be identified as a budgerigar or as Richard III?"

I’m clearly talking about gender. Your response is the usual one you get from people with no desire to understand it but even if they did, what difference would it make to your life?

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By *amantha TSWoman
over a year ago

Swindon


"Broadly speaking, women do not sexually assault men.

So men have very little to fear from a NB woman on their toilets."

I'd suggest that if the law changed so that you must use the toilets based on your birth sex then there is more likely to be assaults as trans women / femme NB in male toilets are an easier target for the predators you describe, and trans men / male NB in female toilets would actually give more access to predators as they wouldn't need to disguise themselves, they could just walk in and claim they're a trans man on testosterone HRT etc.

I'd also be interested to see how many assaults have happened as a result of a predator dressing up as a female to gain access to ladies toilets.

I use the ladies as I feel safer there. I've never been challenged, never made to feel ill at ease while queuing and actually never overheard any derogatory comments. Unlike when I was using the men's toilets where I felt unsafe based on the looks and attitudes I encountered.

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By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)


"We've always thought this could become a dangerous game as surly there are guys out there will use it to identify as what they want just so that they can go sniffing about in ladies toilets.

If someone wanted to put a dress on in public just to get into a toilet, then firstly, they’re braver than any sexual aggressor, secondly I’d wonder what they think happens in toilets, thirdly it completely ignores that lesbians use gender specific bathroom spaces and no one questions their sexual behaviour…

This argument against trans folks who just want to use appropriate bathroom spaces is a complete nonsense

Lesbians are women.

Women are ,statistically, far less likely to sexually assault anyone.

"

Trans women are also women.

Do you have the statistics for sexual assaults in bathroom spaces?

Seeing as how so many people use this argument against gender assigned bathroom use, then it must be high. Also those gender neutral toilets must be havens for aggressors by that point

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By *hagTonightMan
over a year ago

From the land of haribos.

I am not sure, there are too many pronouns nowadays.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"We've always thought this could become a dangerous game as surly there are guys out there will use it to identify as what they want just so that they can go sniffing about in ladies toilets.

If someone wanted to put a dress on in public just to get into a toilet, then firstly, they’re braver than any sexual aggressor, secondly I’d wonder what they think happens in toilets, thirdly it completely ignores that lesbians use gender specific bathroom spaces and no one questions their sexual behaviour…

This argument against trans folks who just want to use appropriate bathroom spaces is a complete nonsense

Lesbians are women.

Women are ,statistically, far less likely to sexually assault anyone.

Trans women are also women.

Do you have the statistics for sexual assaults in bathroom spaces?

Seeing as how so many people use this argument against gender assigned bathroom use, then it must be high. Also those gender neutral toilets must be havens for aggressors by that point "

And trans people are overwhelmingly more likely to be sexually attacked in a toilet than women are!

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By *it-chrissyTV/TS
over a year ago

sw. london

a thread about non-binary (etc ?)

becomes a re-hash of trans-in-toilets cliche so fast.

hope people are aware that they are two entirely different things.

different subjects, same old ignorance x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"We've always thought this could become a dangerous game as surly there are guys out there will use it to identify as what they want just so that they can go sniffing about in ladies toilets.

If someone wanted to put a dress on in public just to get into a toilet, then firstly, they’re braver than any sexual aggressor, secondly I’d wonder what they think happens in toilets, thirdly it completely ignores that lesbians use gender specific bathroom spaces and no one questions their sexual behaviour…

This argument against trans folks who just want to use appropriate bathroom spaces is a complete nonsense

Lesbians are women.

Women are ,statistically, far less likely to sexually assault anyone.

Trans women are also women.

Do you have the statistics for sexual assaults in bathroom spaces?

Seeing as how so many people use this argument against gender assigned bathroom use, then it must be high. Also those gender neutral toilets must be havens for aggressors by that point "

I don't want to further derail the thread but the way that gender neutral bathrooms are built makes quite a huge difference to issues of privacy, violence etc.

"Gender neutral facilities mean men and women share the same space for waiting and hand wash facilities. Unisex – or universal – toilets are dedicated, self-contained toilets which maintain privacy for the single use"

This from the recent govt announcement about single sex bathrooms in new buildings.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"We've always thought this could become a dangerous game as surly there are guys out there will use it to identify as what they want just so that they can go sniffing about in ladies toilets.

If someone wanted to put a dress on in public just to get into a toilet, then firstly, they’re braver than any sexual aggressor, secondly I’d wonder what they think happens in toilets, thirdly it completely ignores that lesbians use gender specific bathroom spaces and no one questions their sexual behaviour…

This argument against trans folks who just want to use appropriate bathroom spaces is a complete nonsense

Lesbians are women.

Women are ,statistically, far less likely to sexually assault anyone.

Trans women are also women.

Do you have the statistics for sexual assaults in bathroom spaces?

Seeing as how so many people use this argument against gender assigned bathroom use, then it must be high. Also those gender neutral toilets must be havens for aggressors by that point

I don't want to further derail the thread but the way that gender neutral bathrooms are built makes quite a huge difference to issues of privacy, violence etc.

"Gender neutral facilities mean men and women share the same space for waiting and hand wash facilities. Unisex – or universal – toilets are dedicated, self-contained toilets which maintain privacy for the single use"

This from the recent govt announcement about single sex bathrooms in new buildings."

I should have added I think it's perfectly possible that NB, women, men, trans people all have the privacy and safety they need. With more thought and better design.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"a thread about non-binary (etc ?)

becomes a re-hash of trans-in-toilets cliche so fast.

hope people are aware that they are two entirely different things.

different subjects, same old ignorance x"

Quite

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By *MisschiefxTV/TS
over a year ago

London


"We've always thought this could become a dangerous game as surly there are guys out there will use it to identify as what they want just so that they can go sniffing about in ladies toilets."

I don't think there was any thought involved in that at all.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

[Removed by poster at 28/08/22 11:28:09]

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham


"We've always thought this could become a dangerous game as surly there are guys out there will use it to identify as what they want just so that they can go sniffing about in ladies toilets."

And Isis can learn to be pilots to plot terror attacks yet we don't stop all Muslims from flying planes, do we? This is just hate speech preying on the minds of the easily outraged.

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By *MisschiefxTV/TS
over a year ago

London


"Surely we can be whatever we want to be. It makes no difference to any of our lives what labels or pronouns people would like to use so why even question it? Live and let live.

Well yes, but where do you draw the line? What if somebody wants to be identified as a budgerigar or as Richard III?"

False dichotomy.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

* sigh *

Here we go. Again.

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

w


"We've always thought this could become a dangerous game as surly there are guys out there will use it to identify as what they want just so that they can go sniffing about in ladies toilets.

And Isis can learn to be pilots to plot terror attacks yet we don't stop all Muslims from flying planes, do we? This is just hate speech preying on the minds of the easily outraged. "

Is it though? We’ve already seen instances where people identify in a way that benefits them

Pretty certain there’s been a few cases of men identifying as women so they could go to a female prison in the US.

I agree that sometimes these views are extreme and just intended to hide hate speech, but that doesn’t mean we should ignore it.

And I know that, because I’ve done it. The mens toilets on sites are always gross. So I use the woman’s. And twice now I’ve been “caught” and just said I identify as a woman.

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By *andyfloss2000Woman
over a year ago

ashford


"It's a code isn't it? Oh wait that's binary! it's a load of ?? for the woke brigades load of twoddle if you ask me, your either straight gay or bi and it's as simple as that ??????

Yeah. No. Think of it this way: straight, gay, bi are all sexuality labels. They're who you prefer to do. And for many people sexuality isn't set in stone anyway, it can change with age, or day by day, or just according to individual attraction.

Non-binary is a gender label. Male, female, trans female, trans male, bi-gender, non-binary, gender queer, agender... Gender is who you are, and is only loosely connected to who you prefer to do. And for some people is absolutely set in stone, for some people can evolve and change.

If your brain aligns perfectly with the shape of body you were born with, and with the way that you were brought up, then it is quite possible that you will be totally unable to ever properly understand how some people feel for whom their gender is a more complex matter. But the way you feel in no way makes it less real the way that they feel.

Personally I've never been able to understand how anybody could possibly get worked up over football and have a maniacal obsession with supporting one team or another. But that doesn't mean that I deny the reality of how football can be at the very core of some people's identities."

Good description x

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham


"We've always thought this could become a dangerous game as surly there are guys out there will use it to identify as what they want just so that they can go sniffing about in ladies toilets.

And Isis can learn to be pilots to plot terror attacks yet we don't stop all Muslims from flying planes, do we? This is just hate speech preying on the minds of the easily outraged.

Is it though? We’ve already seen instances where people identify in a way that benefits them

Pretty certain there’s been a few cases of men identifying as women so they could go to a female prison in the US.

I agree that sometimes these views are extreme and just intended to hide hate speech, but that doesn’t mean we should ignore it.

And I know that, because I’ve done it. The mens toilets on sites are always gross. So I use the woman’s. And twice now I’ve been “caught” and just said I identify as a woman. "

Did you attach any women in there? I quite often use men's toilets at sports stadiums because the line for the womens is ridiculous.

I never said nothing should be done, I just pointed out how this rhetoric is manipulative and unhelpful.

More needs to be done to identify predatory people regardless of gender full stop.

The prison example has been widely reported as a failure in the application of procedures and policies by prison. It is very difficult for trans prisoners to be located in their identified gender estate.

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

w


"We've always thought this could become a dangerous game as surly there are guys out there will use it to identify as what they want just so that they can go sniffing about in ladies toilets.

And Isis can learn to be pilots to plot terror attacks yet we don't stop all Muslims from flying planes, do we? This is just hate speech preying on the minds of the easily outraged.

Is it though? We’ve already seen instances where people identify in a way that benefits them

Pretty certain there’s been a few cases of men identifying as women so they could go to a female prison in the US.

I agree that sometimes these views are extreme and just intended to hide hate speech, but that doesn’t mean we should ignore it.

And I know that, because I’ve done it. The mens toilets on sites are always gross. So I use the woman’s. And twice now I’ve been “caught” and just said I identify as a woman.

Did you attach any women in there? I quite often use men's toilets at sports stadiums because the line for the womens is ridiculous.

I never said nothing should be done, I just pointed out how this rhetoric is manipulative and unhelpful.

More needs to be done to identify predatory people regardless of gender full stop.

The prison example has been widely reported as a failure in the application of procedures and policies by prison. It is very difficult for trans prisoners to be located in their identified gender estate. "

My mistake, I took your comment to mean it’s a point that’s so false we didn’t need to ever discuss it because it’s just hidden hate speech

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By *uffolkcouple-bi onlyCouple
over a year ago

West Suffolk

[Removed by poster at 28/08/22 11:49:57]

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By *andyfloss2000Woman
over a year ago

ashford


"Surely we can be whatever we want to be. It makes no difference to any of our lives what labels or pronouns people would like to use so why even question it? Live and let live.

Well yes, but where do you draw the line? What if somebody wants to be identified as a budgerigar or as Richard III?"

Where is the yawn emoji??x

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By *uffolkcouple-bi onlyCouple
over a year ago

West Suffolk

To answer the original question. Binary means 2. So non binary means not 2.

To bring that into the context of what you were really asking…..

Some people think there’s more than two genders. In a free society you’re allowed to think and believe whatever you want. Doesn’t make it real though.

I think for someone going through gender reassignment surgery there could be a point where they could reasonably be defined as neither male or female, and both male and female.

What someone chooses to identify as is a completely different matter as you can call yourself whatever you want. I can call myself Santa Clause but that doesn’t mean I’m Father Christmas.

I try not to get too wound up by people that want to call themselves something. If it doesn’t affect me, why stress it?

As for those seeking the acceptance of others, such as men who want to dress as women and use a female female toilet….. i think if you want people to accept you, it’s reasonable to extrapolate that some won’t and you should accept that and use a GN or disabled toilet. You can buy the keys on eBay.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Broadly speaking, women do not sexually assault men.

So men have very little to fear from a NB woman on their toilets.

I'd suggest that if the law changed so that you must use the toilets based on your birth sex then there is more likely to be assaults as trans women / femme NB in male toilets are an easier target for the predators you describe, and trans men / male NB in female toilets would actually give more access to predators as they wouldn't need to disguise themselves, they could just walk in and claim they're a trans man on testosterone HRT etc.

I'd also be interested to see how many assaults have happened as a result of a predator dressing up as a female to gain access to ladies toilets.

I use the ladies as I feel safer there. I've never been challenged, never made to feel ill at ease while queuing and actually never overheard any derogatory comments. Unlike when I was using the men's toilets where I felt unsafe based on the looks and attitudes I encountered. "

That's nice you felt safer in women's toilets.

The fact you did not hear any "derogatory" comments does not mean all of the women using the space at the same time as you had no issue with a transwoman using them.

If safety is the main concern for you then a third space would ensure this.

But for many it's more about the validation they get from using what has been designated a woman only space.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham


"Broadly speaking, women do not sexually assault men.

So men have very little to fear from a NB woman on their toilets.

I'd suggest that if the law changed so that you must use the toilets based on your birth sex then there is more likely to be assaults as trans women / femme NB in male toilets are an easier target for the predators you describe, and trans men / male NB in female toilets would actually give more access to predators as they wouldn't need to disguise themselves, they could just walk in and claim they're a trans man on testosterone HRT etc.

I'd also be interested to see how many assaults have happened as a result of a predator dressing up as a female to gain access to ladies toilets.

I use the ladies as I feel safer there. I've never been challenged, never made to feel ill at ease while queuing and actually never overheard any derogatory comments. Unlike when I was using the men's toilets where I felt unsafe based on the looks and attitudes I encountered.

That's nice you felt safer in women's toilets.

The fact you did not hear any "derogatory" comments does not mean all of the women using the space at the same time as you had no issue with a transwoman using them.

If safety is the main concern for you then a third space would ensure this.

But for many it's more about the validation they get from using what has been designated a woman only space."

Because they are women and that's what they've fought for for years?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The whole argument that this increases risk to women is ridiculous.

There is no evidence that letting transgender people use public facilities that align with their gender identity increases safety risks.

And UCLA did a study on exactly this! The study rigorously tested the relationship between nondiscrimination laws in public accommodations and reports of crime in public restrooms and other gender-segregated facilities.

However, forcing trans women to use male facilities will and does lead to a large number of sexual attacks on them.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There will be more toilet doors in venues than fire exits soon

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I look forward to a time when we don't have any of these labels.

The only thing we all have in common is we are all human beings after that we are all different. So the only identifier I need is name other than that people should just treat everyone the same.

I've been told I'm expection too much of the human race.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Something without a 1 (willy) or a 0 (pussy) in this context, I believe

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"The whole argument that this increases risk to women is ridiculous.

There is no evidence that letting transgender people use public facilities that align with their gender identity increases safety risks.

And UCLA did a study on exactly this! The study rigorously tested the relationship between nondiscrimination laws in public accommodations and reports of crime in public restrooms and other gender-segregated facilities.

However, forcing trans women to use male facilities will and does lead to a large number of sexual attacks on them. "

Yes, funny how data works

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Gotta ask, but what happens when one of these "they" people commit murder?

How are "they" going to be convicted?

Which prison do "they" go to?

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By *andyfloss2000Woman
over a year ago

ashford


"I look forward to a time when we don't have any of these labels.

The only thing we all have in common is we are all human beings after that we are all different. So the only identifier I need is name other than that people should just treat everyone the same.

I've been told I'm expection too much of the human race."

If only! Would b lovely for this to happen x

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

[Removed by poster at 28/08/22 13:03:39]

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham


"Gotta ask, but what happens when one of these "they" people commit murder?

How are "they" going to be convicted?

Which prison do "they" go to?"

Why do you keep saying "they".

I believe at present they are convicted and imprisoned under their assigned sex at birth but then would be treated as vulnerable prisoners

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By *andyfloss2000Woman
over a year ago

ashford


"Gotta ask, but what happens when one of these "they" people commit murder?

How are "they" going to be convicted?

Which prison do "they" go to?"

Ohh dear!! x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Just what is non binary. Gender neutral etc. Surely we are all just male or female. "

Load of rubbish thats what is.

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By *andyfloss2000Woman
over a year ago

ashford

If nothing else these posts are good to update my private notes! X

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By *andy101Couple
over a year ago

walsall

We're firm believers in you are what you are and would never talk down on someone who choses a different path,but there still has to be a line not to go over ie children or minors some of which some haven't even reached puberty identifying these minors legally cannot vote,smoke,drink alcohol,have sex or drive a car yet are mature enough to re identify there lies a problem for us and anyone who disagrees is wrong presures,parental encouragement or media should not come into it it's wrong and asking a huge percentage of the adult human race who have up until recently have not really had to deal with all this to accept a very small percentages view is virtually impossible

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Broadly speaking, women do not sexually assault men.

So men have very little to fear from a NB woman on their toilets.

I'd suggest that if the law changed so that you must use the toilets based on your birth sex then there is more likely to be assaults as trans women / femme NB in male toilets are an easier target for the predators you describe, and trans men / male NB in female toilets would actually give more access to predators as they wouldn't need to disguise themselves, they could just walk in and claim they're a trans man on testosterone HRT etc.

I'd also be interested to see how many assaults have happened as a result of a predator dressing up as a female to gain access to ladies toilets.

I use the ladies as I feel safer there. I've never been challenged, never made to feel ill at ease while queuing and actually never overheard any derogatory comments. Unlike when I was using the men's toilets where I felt unsafe based on the looks and attitudes I encountered.

That's nice you felt safer in women's toilets.

The fact you did not hear any "derogatory" comments does not mean all of the women using the space at the same time as you had no issue with a transwoman using them.

If safety is the main concern for you then a third space would ensure this.

But for many it's more about the validation they get from using what has been designated a woman only space.

Because they are women and that's what they've fought for for years?"

The women are women.

Transwomen are transwomen.

There is a distinct and important difference.

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By *UNCHBOXMan
over a year ago

folkestone


"Just what is non binary. Gender neutral etc. Surely we are all just male or female.

I'm hoping this is irony, but I guess not.

No, we are not "just male or female." The very existence of intersex people proves that is not the case.

Aside from that, I'm not sure if you're gemuinely interested in answers or not, but they are not difficult to find. "

No, there are still only 2 sexes. Intersex people are either Male or female with a development of sex condition.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham


"Broadly speaking, women do not sexually assault men.

So men have very little to fear from a NB woman on their toilets.

I'd suggest that if the law changed so that you must use the toilets based on your birth sex then there is more likely to be assaults as trans women / femme NB in male toilets are an easier target for the predators you describe, and trans men / male NB in female toilets would actually give more access to predators as they wouldn't need to disguise themselves, they could just walk in and claim they're a trans man on testosterone HRT etc.

I'd also be interested to see how many assaults have happened as a result of a predator dressing up as a female to gain access to ladies toilets.

I use the ladies as I feel safer there. I've never been challenged, never made to feel ill at ease while queuing and actually never overheard any derogatory comments. Unlike when I was using the men's toilets where I felt unsafe based on the looks and attitudes I encountered.

That's nice you felt safer in women's toilets.

The fact you did not hear any "derogatory" comments does not mean all of the women using the space at the same time as you had no issue with a transwoman using them.

If safety is the main concern for you then a third space would ensure this.

But for many it's more about the validation they get from using what has been designated a woman only space.

Because they are women and that's what they've fought for for years?

The women are women.

Transwomen are transwomen.

There is a distinct and important difference."

You stated they purely seek validation like that's a bad thing. Transwomen have to go through many different processes and therapies and procedures to 'prove' they are women. Why should they not seek validation that they are finally seen as the person they know themselves to be?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Gotta ask, but what happens when one of these "they" people commit murder?

How are "they" going to be convicted?

Which prison do "they" go to?

Why do you keep saying "they".

I believe at present they are convicted and imprisoned under their assigned sex at birth but then would be treated as vulnerable prisoners "

This is wrong.

There are a number of transwomen housed in female only prisons in Scotland.

Your second point is a good one though. Transwomen could & should be housed in a male prison and treated as a vulnerable prison.

At this point someone usually pipes up with the argument that they are exceptionally vulnerable and would be prime targets for sexual assault and r*pe which is rife in male prisons. A horrific thought.

However I've yet to see the same concern over the welfare of younger, effeminate men who are housed in jail with big strong alpha types and exposed to the exact same risk.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Broadly speaking, women do not sexually assault men.

So men have very little to fear from a NB woman on their toilets.

I'd suggest that if the law changed so that you must use the toilets based on your birth sex then there is more likely to be assaults as trans women / femme NB in male toilets are an easier target for the predators you describe, and trans men / male NB in female toilets would actually give more access to predators as they wouldn't need to disguise themselves, they could just walk in and claim they're a trans man on testosterone HRT etc.

I'd also be interested to see how many assaults have happened as a result of a predator dressing up as a female to gain access to ladies toilets.

I use the ladies as I feel safer there. I've never been challenged, never made to feel ill at ease while queuing and actually never overheard any derogatory comments. Unlike when I was using the men's toilets where I felt unsafe based on the looks and attitudes I encountered.

That's nice you felt safer in women's toilets.

The fact you did not hear any "derogatory" comments does not mean all of the women using the space at the same time as you had no issue with a transwoman using them.

If safety is the main concern for you then a third space would ensure this.

But for many it's more about the validation they get from using what has been designated a woman only space.

Because they are women and that's what they've fought for for years?

The women are women.

Transwomen are transwomen.

There is a distinct and important difference.

You stated they purely seek validation like that's a bad thing. Transwomen have to go through many different processes and therapies and procedures to 'prove' they are women. Why should they not seek validation that they are finally seen as the person they know themselves to be?"

Many different processes? Many different procedures?

You mean like Alex Drummond? That exceptionally convincing bearded lesbian heralded as stunning and brave by Stonewall?

(She's worth a Google search folks.

)

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By *uffolkcouple-bi onlyCouple
over a year ago

West Suffolk


"The whole argument that this increases risk to women is ridiculous.

There is no evidence that letting transgender people use public facilities that align with their gender identity increases safety risks.

And UCLA did a study on exactly this! The study rigorously tested the relationship between nondiscrimination laws in public accommodations and reports of crime in public restrooms and other gender-segregated facilities.

However, forcing trans women to use male facilities will and does lead to a large number of sexual attacks on them. "

Actually there are documented cases where a trans person has assaulted a woman in a fem toilet in UK. Google it

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"Broadly speaking, women do not sexually assault men.

So men have very little to fear from a NB woman on their toilets.

I'd suggest that if the law changed so that you must use the toilets based on your birth sex then there is more likely to be assaults as trans women / femme NB in male toilets are an easier target for the predators you describe, and trans men / male NB in female toilets would actually give more access to predators as they wouldn't need to disguise themselves, they could just walk in and claim they're a trans man on testosterone HRT etc.

I'd also be interested to see how many assaults have happened as a result of a predator dressing up as a female to gain access to ladies toilets.

I use the ladies as I feel safer there. I've never been challenged, never made to feel ill at ease while queuing and actually never overheard any derogatory comments. Unlike when I was using the men's toilets where I felt unsafe based on the looks and attitudes I encountered.

That's nice you felt safer in women's toilets.

The fact you did not hear any "derogatory" comments does not mean all of the women using the space at the same time as you had no issue with a transwoman using them.

If safety is the main concern for you then a third space would ensure this.

But for many it's more about the validation they get from using what has been designated a woman only space.

Because they are women and that's what they've fought for for years?

The women are women.

Transwomen are transwomen.

There is a distinct and important difference.

You stated they purely seek validation like that's a bad thing. Transwomen have to go through many different processes and therapies and procedures to 'prove' they are women. Why should they not seek validation that they are finally seen as the person they know themselves to be?"

Everybody seeks validation in their lives. Everyone. We're social creatures

This idea that we should scorn people for seeking validation - when they are among the most discriminated against minorities in the world* - is morally repugnant to me.

* Studies of rhetoric show that trans people face similar hatred to Jewish people in Germany in the prelude to the second world war. "first they came for the trans people - and we told them to go fuck themselves"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Gotta ask, but what happens when one of these "they" people commit murder?

How are "they" going to be convicted?

Which prison do "they" go to?

Why do you keep saying "they".

I believe at present they are convicted and imprisoned under their assigned sex at birth but then would be treated as vulnerable prisoners "

Isn't he referring to non-binary individuals?

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham


"Gotta ask, but what happens when one of these "they" people commit murder?

How are "they" going to be convicted?

Which prison do "they" go to?

Why do you keep saying "they".

I believe at present they are convicted and imprisoned under their assigned sex at birth but then would be treated as vulnerable prisoners

This is wrong.

There are a number of transwomen housed in female only prisons in Scotland.

Your second point is a good one though. Transwomen could & should be housed in a male prison and treated as a vulnerable prison.

At this point someone usually pipes up with the argument that they are exceptionally vulnerable and would be prime targets for sexual assault and r*pe which is rife in male prisons. A horrific thought.

However I've yet to see the same concern over the welfare of younger, effeminate men who are housed in jail with big strong alpha types and exposed to the exact same risk."

5 out of 11 transwomen are located in the Scottish female estate.

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By *andyfloss2000Woman
over a year ago

ashford

And the usual terfs/transphobes/bigots come out! X

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"The whole argument that this increases risk to women is ridiculous.

There is no evidence that letting transgender people use public facilities that align with their gender identity increases safety risks.

And UCLA did a study on exactly this! The study rigorously tested the relationship between nondiscrimination laws in public accommodations and reports of crime in public restrooms and other gender-segregated facilities.

However, forcing trans women to use male facilities will and does lead to a large number of sexual attacks on them.

Actually there are documented cases where a trans person has assaulted a woman in a fem toilet in UK. Google it "

And I'd add to this that it does not automatically follow (and I'm sure you are not suggesting) that every transwoman is a potential predator.

The point is, is we have to accept every and anyone who claims to be a woman then how do we differentiate between the predators and the people struggling with their identity who feels safer in a woman's toilet?

You can't. It's impossible to tell by looking.

Hence the need for a third space. Not just in toilets. In every space which was previously designated "female only".

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"The whole argument that this increases risk to women is ridiculous.

There is no evidence that letting transgender people use public facilities that align with their gender identity increases safety risks.

And UCLA did a study on exactly this! The study rigorously tested the relationship between nondiscrimination laws in public accommodations and reports of crime in public restrooms and other gender-segregated facilities.

However, forcing trans women to use male facilities will and does lead to a large number of sexual attacks on them.

Actually there are documented cases where a trans person has assaulted a woman in a fem toilet in UK. Google it "

I googled before posting, only found one case! There are way more than that of trans women being assaulted in male toilets.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"And the usual terfs/transphobes/bigots come out! X"

Candy, doesn't using those words just suppress any open discussion?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"And the usual terfs/transphobes/bigots come out! X"

Name calling makes you look about 12.

People have a different opinion from yours.

I don't call you delusional for believing what you do. Some may though.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"And the usual terfs/transphobes/bigots come out! X

Candy, doesn't using those words just suppress any open discussion? "

They are intended to scare, intimidate and frighten.

They don’t.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham


"Broadly speaking, women do not sexually assault men.

So men have very little to fear from a NB woman on their toilets.

I'd suggest that if the law changed so that you must use the toilets based on your birth sex then there is more likely to be assaults as trans women / femme NB in male toilets are an easier target for the predators you describe, and trans men / male NB in female toilets would actually give more access to predators as they wouldn't need to disguise themselves, they could just walk in and claim they're a trans man on testosterone HRT etc.

I'd also be interested to see how many assaults have happened as a result of a predator dressing up as a female to gain access to ladies toilets.

I use the ladies as I feel safer there. I've never been challenged, never made to feel ill at ease while queuing and actually never overheard any derogatory comments. Unlike when I was using the men's toilets where I felt unsafe based on the looks and attitudes I encountered.

That's nice you felt safer in women's toilets.

The fact you did not hear any "derogatory" comments does not mean all of the women using the space at the same time as you had no issue with a transwoman using them.

If safety is the main concern for you then a third space would ensure this.

But for many it's more about the validation they get from using what has been designated a woman only space.

Because they are women and that's what they've fought for for years?

The women are women.

Transwomen are transwomen.

There is a distinct and important difference.

You stated they purely seek validation like that's a bad thing. Transwomen have to go through many different processes and therapies and procedures to 'prove' they are women. Why should they not seek validation that they are finally seen as the person they know themselves to be?

Many different processes? Many different procedures?

You mean like Alex Drummond? That exceptionally convincing bearded lesbian heralded as stunning and brave by Stonewall?

(She's worth a Google search folks.

)"

Are women not allowed to have beards?

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"The whole argument that this increases risk to women is ridiculous.

There is no evidence that letting transgender people use public facilities that align with their gender identity increases safety risks.

And UCLA did a study on exactly this! The study rigorously tested the relationship between nondiscrimination laws in public accommodations and reports of crime in public restrooms and other gender-segregated facilities.

However, forcing trans women to use male facilities will and does lead to a large number of sexual attacks on them.

Actually there are documented cases where a trans person has assaulted a woman in a fem toilet in UK. Google it

And I'd add to this that it does not automatically follow (and I'm sure you are not suggesting) that every transwoman is a potential predator.

The point is, is we have to accept every and anyone who claims to be a woman then how do we differentiate between the predators and the people struggling with their identity who feels safer in a woman's toilet?

You can't. It's impossible to tell by looking.

Hence the need for a third space. Not just in toilets. In every space which was previously designated "female only".

"

How would you differentiate between a small breasted, not particularly hippy woman, who happens to have a deep voice, and dresses androgynously, from a trans woman?

Do we need to have photo ID to use public toilets?

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *MisschiefxTV/TS
over a year ago

London

There's two types of people in the world.

Those who need everything to be neatly labelled and put in a box so that they can understand the world around them. Any change to these traditional labels are uncomfortable for them and they will resist trying to understand something new.

Then there are those who don't need boxes to understand the world and understand that nothing is black and white. In psychological terms, they have more adaptive schemas.

The second type is always going to have a very difficult time explaining something like non binary to the first type. Their brains aren't wired to adapt to change and their cognitive dissonance will reject it before they've even realised their own brain has made a decision for them.

To the original question. Non binary is rejection of socially imposed ideas of what gender identities are. Society has completely arbitrary rules for what men can present as and what women can present as. For example, women wear skirts and men don't.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"The whole argument that this increases risk to women is ridiculous.

There is no evidence that letting transgender people use public facilities that align with their gender identity increases safety risks.

And UCLA did a study on exactly this! The study rigorously tested the relationship between nondiscrimination laws in public accommodations and reports of crime in public restrooms and other gender-segregated facilities.

However, forcing trans women to use male facilities will and does lead to a large number of sexual attacks on them.

Actually there are documented cases where a trans person has assaulted a woman in a fem toilet in UK. Google it

I googled before posting, only found one case! There are way more than that of trans women being assaulted in male toilets."

So create a 3rd space

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Well…. I’ve looked through this thread. I’m reminded of the fact that there are so many backward thinking people , who think they know it all.

I don’t know why the OP started this thread of hate.

Maybe THEY are not getting any attention, maybe someone bought THEM a soapbox, and THEY like to stand in it and preach THEIR thoughts out load ?!?!

People should just live their own lives , and not start to interfere with others that THEY do not know anything about.

Attacking minorities will never win !

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Sex is what a doctor labels you at birth. It's based on genitals. But even then there are corner cases.

From then on on, we treat everyone largely on how they present. We dont check genitals before using their pronouns. While this may be largely a physical thing, we'd likely take other cues. The way we'd react in the toilet situation is largely based on appearances. There are many TS who you'd not bat an eyelid if they went in the "wrong" bathroom for their sex at birth.

Now as a CIS man, I am trying to wrap my head around how one determines what they gender they feel. Do I say I'm a man simply because of what's between my legs? Or because, as a rule, I feel like I have more in common with other people who say they have male genitals between their legs.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"There's two types of people in the world.

Those who need everything to be neatly labelled and put in a box so that they can understand the world around them. Any change to these traditional labels are uncomfortable for them and they will resist trying to understand something new.

Then there are those who don't need boxes to understand the world and understand that nothing is black and white. In psychological terms, they have more adaptive schemas.

The second type is always going to have a very difficult time explaining something like non binary to the first type. Their brains aren't wired to adapt to change and their cognitive dissonance will reject it before they've even realised their own brain has made a decision for them.

To the original question. Non binary is rejection of socially imposed ideas of what gender identities are. Society has completely arbitrary rules for what men can present as and what women can present as. For example, women wear skirts and men don't.

"

I find labels a useful bouncing off point - not to constrain, but to explain. But trans, non binary, are just among my labels. And none of it threatens me in the slightest. It's just different, helps me know how to interact with people.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"The whole argument that this increases risk to women is ridiculous.

There is no evidence that letting transgender people use public facilities that align with their gender identity increases safety risks.

And UCLA did a study on exactly this! The study rigorously tested the relationship between nondiscrimination laws in public accommodations and reports of crime in public restrooms and other gender-segregated facilities.

However, forcing trans women to use male facilities will and does lead to a large number of sexual attacks on them.

Actually there are documented cases where a trans person has assaulted a woman in a fem toilet in UK. Google it

I googled before posting, only found one case! There are way more than that of trans women being assaulted in male toilets.

So create a 3rd space "

Ok. Male, female, TERF. done

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"The whole argument that this increases risk to women is ridiculous.

There is no evidence that letting transgender people use public facilities that align with their gender identity increases safety risks.

And UCLA did a study on exactly this! The study rigorously tested the relationship between nondiscrimination laws in public accommodations and reports of crime in public restrooms and other gender-segregated facilities.

However, forcing trans women to use male facilities will and does lead to a large number of sexual attacks on them.

Actually there are documented cases where a trans person has assaulted a woman in a fem toilet in UK. Google it

I googled before posting, only found one case! There are way more than that of trans women being assaulted in male toilets.

So create a 3rd space "

Because of course that won’t put trans women at risk? Do you not think that seeing them exit will reveal to all that they are trans and that in itself will lead to worse outcomes for trans women. A sector of society that already are subjected to violence at a higher rate than both POCs and women.

Transgender people are already over four times more likely than cisgender people to experience violent victimization, including sexual assault, and aggravated or simple assault.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"There's two types of people in the world.

Those who need everything to be neatly labelled and put in a box so that they can understand the world around them. Any change to these traditional labels are uncomfortable for them and they will resist trying to understand something new.

Then there are those who don't need boxes to understand the world and understand that nothing is black and white. In psychological terms, they have more adaptive schemas.

The second type is always going to have a very difficult time explaining something like non binary to the first type. Their brains aren't wired to adapt to change and their cognitive dissonance will reject it before they've even realised their own brain has made a decision for them.

To the original question. Non binary is rejection of socially imposed ideas of what gender identities are. Society has completely arbitrary rules for what men can present as and what women can present as. For example, women wear skirts and men don't.

"

No-one has to conform to those rules. Non-conforming men and women are everywhere.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"The whole argument that this increases risk to women is ridiculous.

There is no evidence that letting transgender people use public facilities that align with their gender identity increases safety risks.

And UCLA did a study on exactly this! The study rigorously tested the relationship between nondiscrimination laws in public accommodations and reports of crime in public restrooms and other gender-segregated facilities.

However, forcing trans women to use male facilities will and does lead to a large number of sexual attacks on them.

Actually there are documented cases where a trans person has assaulted a woman in a fem toilet in UK. Google it

And I'd add to this that it does not automatically follow (and I'm sure you are not suggesting) that every transwoman is a potential predator.

The point is, is we have to accept every and anyone who claims to be a woman then how do we differentiate between the predators and the people struggling with their identity who feels safer in a woman's toilet?

You can't. It's impossible to tell by looking.

Hence the need for a third space. Not just in toilets. In every space which was previously designated "female only".

How would you differentiate between a small breasted, not particularly hippy woman, who happens to have a deep voice, and dresses androgynously, from a trans woman?

Do we need to have photo ID to use public toilets?"

90% of the time I can tell by their gait and how they carry themselves tbh.

I was out last night in a bar and had to put my specs on to send a text message....I regularly need to put them on to spot friends in a busy cafe or pub.

There was at individual standing at the bar last night about 18ft away from me. Long dark hair, short dress and high heels. When they walked across the room I already knew they weren't a woman. Put on my specs and I was right.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"The whole argument that this increases risk to women is ridiculous.

There is no evidence that letting transgender people use public facilities that align with their gender identity increases safety risks.

And UCLA did a study on exactly this! The study rigorously tested the relationship between nondiscrimination laws in public accommodations and reports of crime in public restrooms and other gender-segregated facilities.

However, forcing trans women to use male facilities will and does lead to a large number of sexual attacks on them.

Actually there are documented cases where a trans person has assaulted a woman in a fem toilet in UK. Google it

I googled before posting, only found one case! There are way more than that of trans women being assaulted in male toilets.

So create a 3rd space

Ok. Male, female, TERF. done "

I’m ok with that

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"The whole argument that this increases risk to women is ridiculous.

There is no evidence that letting transgender people use public facilities that align with their gender identity increases safety risks.

And UCLA did a study on exactly this! The study rigorously tested the relationship between nondiscrimination laws in public accommodations and reports of crime in public restrooms and other gender-segregated facilities.

However, forcing trans women to use male facilities will and does lead to a large number of sexual attacks on them.

Actually there are documented cases where a trans person has assaulted a woman in a fem toilet in UK. Google it

I googled before posting, only found one case! There are way more than that of trans women being assaulted in male toilets.

So create a 3rd space "
don't you need four?

Or perhaps we just need two. cis and trans.

Or law abiding and predators?

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"The whole argument that this increases risk to women is ridiculous.

There is no evidence that letting transgender people use public facilities that align with their gender identity increases safety risks.

And UCLA did a study on exactly this! The study rigorously tested the relationship between nondiscrimination laws in public accommodations and reports of crime in public restrooms and other gender-segregated facilities.

However, forcing trans women to use male facilities will and does lead to a large number of sexual attacks on them.

Actually there are documented cases where a trans person has assaulted a woman in a fem toilet in UK. Google it

I googled before posting, only found one case! There are way more than that of trans women being assaulted in male toilets.

So create a 3rd space

Because of course that won’t put trans women at risk? Do you not think that seeing them exit will reveal to all that they are trans and that in itself will lead to worse outcomes for trans women. A sector of society that already are subjected to violence at a higher rate than both POCs and women.

Transgender people are already over four times more likely than cisgender people to experience violent victimization, including sexual assault, and aggravated or simple assault.

"

Not in the UK they're not.

I recall reading that one woman is killed every 3 days in the UK.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham


"The whole argument that this increases risk to women is ridiculous.

There is no evidence that letting transgender people use public facilities that align with their gender identity increases safety risks.

And UCLA did a study on exactly this! The study rigorously tested the relationship between nondiscrimination laws in public accommodations and reports of crime in public restrooms and other gender-segregated facilities.

However, forcing trans women to use male facilities will and does lead to a large number of sexual attacks on them.

Actually there are documented cases where a trans person has assaulted a woman in a fem toilet in UK. Google it

And I'd add to this that it does not automatically follow (and I'm sure you are not suggesting) that every transwoman is a potential predator.

The point is, is we have to accept every and anyone who claims to be a woman then how do we differentiate between the predators and the people struggling with their identity who feels safer in a woman's toilet?

You can't. It's impossible to tell by looking.

Hence the need for a third space. Not just in toilets. In every space which was previously designated "female only".

How would you differentiate between a small breasted, not particularly hippy woman, who happens to have a deep voice, and dresses androgynously, from a trans woman?

Do we need to have photo ID to use public toilets?

90% of the time I can tell by their gait and how they carry themselves tbh.

I was out last night in a bar and had to put my specs on to send a text message....I regularly need to put them on to spot friends in a busy cafe or pub.

There was at individual standing at the bar last night about 18ft away from me. Long dark hair, short dress and high heels. When they walked across the room I already knew they weren't a woman. Put on my specs and I was right."

this is a funny, right?!

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *andyfloss2000Woman
over a year ago

ashford


"And the usual terfs/transphobes/bigots come out! X

Candy, doesn't using those words just suppress any open discussion? "

Maybe yes?? But just get so incredibly frustrated and upset if I'm honest over these threads! I tell my self don't look donk look! But inevitably do sorry!! X

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"The whole argument that this increases risk to women is ridiculous.

There is no evidence that letting transgender people use public facilities that align with their gender identity increases safety risks.

And UCLA did a study on exactly this! The study rigorously tested the relationship between nondiscrimination laws in public accommodations and reports of crime in public restrooms and other gender-segregated facilities.

However, forcing trans women to use male facilities will and does lead to a large number of sexual attacks on them.

Actually there are documented cases where a trans person has assaulted a woman in a fem toilet in UK. Google it

And I'd add to this that it does not automatically follow (and I'm sure you are not suggesting) that every transwoman is a potential predator.

The point is, is we have to accept every and anyone who claims to be a woman then how do we differentiate between the predators and the people struggling with their identity who feels safer in a woman's toilet?

You can't. It's impossible to tell by looking.

Hence the need for a third space. Not just in toilets. In every space which was previously designated "female only".

How would you differentiate between a small breasted, not particularly hippy woman, who happens to have a deep voice, and dresses androgynously, from a trans woman?

Do we need to have photo ID to use public toilets?

90% of the time I can tell by their gait and how they carry themselves tbh.

I was out last night in a bar and had to put my specs on to send a text message....I regularly need to put them on to spot friends in a busy cafe or pub.

There was at individual standing at the bar last night about 18ft away from me. Long dark hair, short dress and high heels. When they walked across the room I already knew they weren't a woman. Put on my specs and I was right."

So you have some you get wrong, by your own admission.

10% of people, or gender non conforming people, not having a place to relieve themselves without harassment or attack - that seems like a lot more problems than currently exists with verifiable data.

I thought the point of the bathroom hysteria was to decrease attacks.

Seems this would only increase them.

Huh. How about that

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"The whole argument that this increases risk to women is ridiculous.

There is no evidence that letting transgender people use public facilities that align with their gender identity increases safety risks.

And UCLA did a study on exactly this! The study rigorously tested the relationship between nondiscrimination laws in public accommodations and reports of crime in public restrooms and other gender-segregated facilities.

However, forcing trans women to use male facilities will and does lead to a large number of sexual attacks on them.

Actually there are documented cases where a trans person has assaulted a woman in a fem toilet in UK. Google it

I googled before posting, only found one case! There are way more than that of trans women being assaulted in male toilets.

So create a 3rd space

Because of course that won’t put trans women at risk? Do you not think that seeing them exit will reveal to all that they are trans and that in itself will lead to worse outcomes for trans women. A sector of society that already are subjected to violence at a higher rate than both POCs and women.

Transgender people are already over four times more likely than cisgender people to experience violent victimization, including sexual assault, and aggravated or simple assault.

Not in the UK they're not.

I recall reading that one woman is killed every 3 days in the UK."
you do realise there are a lot more women than transgender people ?

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"The whole argument that this increases risk to women is ridiculous.

There is no evidence that letting transgender people use public facilities that align with their gender identity increases safety risks.

And UCLA did a study on exactly this! The study rigorously tested the relationship between nondiscrimination laws in public accommodations and reports of crime in public restrooms and other gender-segregated facilities.

However, forcing trans women to use male facilities will and does lead to a large number of sexual attacks on them.

Actually there are documented cases where a trans person has assaulted a woman in a fem toilet in UK. Google it

And I'd add to this that it does not automatically follow (and I'm sure you are not suggesting) that every transwoman is a potential predator.

The point is, is we have to accept every and anyone who claims to be a woman then how do we differentiate between the predators and the people struggling with their identity who feels safer in a woman's toilet?

You can't. It's impossible to tell by looking.

Hence the need for a third space. Not just in toilets. In every space which was previously designated "female only".

How would you differentiate between a small breasted, not particularly hippy woman, who happens to have a deep voice, and dresses androgynously, from a trans woman?

Do we need to have photo ID to use public toilets?

90% of the time I can tell by their gait and how they carry themselves tbh.

I was out last night in a bar and had to put my specs on to send a text message....I regularly need to put them on to spot friends in a busy cafe or pub.

There was at individual standing at the bar last night about 18ft away from me. Long dark hair, short dress and high heels. When they walked across the room I already knew they weren't a woman. Put on my specs and I was right."

What do you want ! A blue Peter Badge ?

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"The whole argument that this increases risk to women is ridiculous.

There is no evidence that letting transgender people use public facilities that align with their gender identity increases safety risks.

And UCLA did a study on exactly this! The study rigorously tested the relationship between nondiscrimination laws in public accommodations and reports of crime in public restrooms and other gender-segregated facilities.

However, forcing trans women to use male facilities will and does lead to a large number of sexual attacks on them.

Actually there are documented cases where a trans person has assaulted a woman in a fem toilet in UK. Google it

I googled before posting, only found one case! There are way more than that of trans women being assaulted in male toilets.

So create a 3rd space

Because of course that won’t put trans women at risk? Do you not think that seeing them exit will reveal to all that they are trans and that in itself will lead to worse outcomes for trans women. A sector of society that already are subjected to violence at a higher rate than both POCs and women.

Transgender people are already over four times more likely than cisgender people to experience violent victimization, including sexual assault, and aggravated or simple assault.

Not in the UK they're not.

I recall reading that one woman is killed every 3 days in the UK."

In bathrooms? By trans people?

Or are you changing parameters to try to make your point defensible?

How about that. Intellectual dishonesty in an argument. This is my shocked face

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By *hetalkingstoveMan
over a year ago

London


"

90% of the time I can tell by their gait and how they carry themselves tbh.

I was out last night in a bar and had to put my specs on to send a text message....I regularly need to put them on to spot friends in a busy cafe or pub.

There was at individual standing at the bar last night about 18ft away from me. Long dark hair, short dress and high heels. When they walked across the room I already knew they weren't a woman. Put on my specs and I was right."

Creepy

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"The whole argument that this increases risk to women is ridiculous.

There is no evidence that letting transgender people use public facilities that align with their gender identity increases safety risks.

And UCLA did a study on exactly this! The study rigorously tested the relationship between nondiscrimination laws in public accommodations and reports of crime in public restrooms and other gender-segregated facilities.

However, forcing trans women to use male facilities will and does lead to a large number of sexual attacks on them.

Actually there are documented cases where a trans person has assaulted a woman in a fem toilet in UK. Google it

I googled before posting, only found one case! There are way more than that of trans women being assaulted in male toilets.

So create a 3rd space

Because of course that won’t put trans women at risk? Do you not think that seeing them exit will reveal to all that they are trans and that in itself will lead to worse outcomes for trans women. A sector of society that already are subjected to violence at a higher rate than both POCs and women.

Transgender people are already over four times more likely than cisgender people to experience violent victimization, including sexual assault, and aggravated or simple assault.

Not in the UK they're not.

I recall reading that one woman is killed every 3 days in the UK."

In the UK, trans people are twice as likely to be a victim of crime than cis people (data provided by ONS).

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"The whole argument that this increases risk to women is ridiculous.

There is no evidence that letting transgender people use public facilities that align with their gender identity increases safety risks.

And UCLA did a study on exactly this! The study rigorously tested the relationship between nondiscrimination laws in public accommodations and reports of crime in public restrooms and other gender-segregated facilities.

However, forcing trans women to use male facilities will and does lead to a large number of sexual attacks on them.

Actually there are documented cases where a trans person has assaulted a woman in a fem toilet in UK. Google it

And I'd add to this that it does not automatically follow (and I'm sure you are not suggesting) that every transwoman is a potential predator.

The point is, is we have to accept every and anyone who claims to be a woman then how do we differentiate between the predators and the people struggling with their identity who feels safer in a woman's toilet?

You can't. It's impossible to tell by looking.

Hence the need for a third space. Not just in toilets. In every space which was previously designated "female only".

How would you differentiate between a small breasted, not particularly hippy woman, who happens to have a deep voice, and dresses androgynously, from a trans woman?

Do we need to have photo ID to use public toilets?

90% of the time I can tell by their gait and how they carry themselves tbh.

I was out last night in a bar and had to put my specs on to send a text message....I regularly need to put them on to spot friends in a busy cafe or pub.

There was at individual standing at the bar last night about 18ft away from me. Long dark hair, short dress and high heels. When they walked across the room I already knew they weren't a woman. Put on my specs and I was right.

this is a funny, right?!"
I wonder how they find out they are right?

This peorson looks like someone I class as a trans female and therefore I am right when I class them as trans female.

Also, how does one find out you were wrong teh other 10pc of times. And not know there were another 50 women you completely missed as being trans.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"The whole argument that this increases risk to women is ridiculous.

There is no evidence that letting transgender people use public facilities that align with their gender identity increases safety risks.

And UCLA did a study on exactly this! The study rigorously tested the relationship between nondiscrimination laws in public accommodations and reports of crime in public restrooms and other gender-segregated facilities.

However, forcing trans women to use male facilities will and does lead to a large number of sexual attacks on them.

Actually there are documented cases where a trans person has assaulted a woman in a fem toilet in UK. Google it

And I'd add to this that it does not automatically follow (and I'm sure you are not suggesting) that every transwoman is a potential predator.

The point is, is we have to accept every and anyone who claims to be a woman then how do we differentiate between the predators and the people struggling with their identity who feels safer in a woman's toilet?

You can't. It's impossible to tell by looking.

Hence the need for a third space. Not just in toilets. In every space which was previously designated "female only".

How would you differentiate between a small breasted, not particularly hippy woman, who happens to have a deep voice, and dresses androgynously, from a trans woman?

Do we need to have photo ID to use public toilets?

90% of the time I can tell by their gait and how they carry themselves tbh.

I was out last night in a bar and had to put my specs on to send a text message....I regularly need to put them on to spot friends in a busy cafe or pub.

There was at individual standing at the bar last night about 18ft away from me. Long dark hair, short dress and high heels. When they walked across the room I already knew they weren't a woman. Put on my specs and I was right.

this is a funny, right?!I wonder how they find out they are right?

This peorson looks like someone I class as a trans female and therefore I am right when I class them as trans female.

Also, how does one find out you were wrong teh other 10pc of times. And not know there were another 50 women you completely missed as being trans.

"

A previous thread, someone (I'm not sure they're here) suggested strip searching to use the toilet.

How young would that start, and why would that invasion of dignity be proportionate?

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *andy101Couple
over a year ago

walsall

The problem there arises with some thinking that everyone should accept their views and not a certain few, but the certain few have to accept that others have different views and should not condemn or name call because they have

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"The problem there arises with some thinking that everyone should accept their views and not a certain few, but the certain few have to accept that others have different views and should not condemn or name call because they have "

You can think whatever you like about trans people.

Acting on it, or trying to propose policies that cause harm, is another matter.

I have all sorts of views about all sorts of people. I let them pee in peace.

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By *olly_chromaticTV/TS
over a year ago

Stockport


"I am not sure, there are too many pronouns nowadays."

I think you might find Shag that there are just about enough pronouns. We scatter them throughout sentences because they are an essential part of language. A bit like how language doesn't really work if you take away any of the other components of grammar - nouns, verbs, adjectives, adverbs.

Quick example, let's repeat the above but take away all those supposedly non-essential grammar things that only exist to confuse people:

" ... "

There, wasn't that so much easier to understand?

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *nked and Ms InkedCouple
over a year ago

nr wrexham


"There's two types of people in the world.

Those who need everything to be neatly labelled and put in a box so that they can understand the world around them. Any change to these traditional labels are uncomfortable for them and they will resist trying to understand something new.

Then there are those who don't need boxes to understand the world and understand that nothing is black and white. In psychological terms, they have more adaptive schemas.

The second type is always going to have a very difficult time explaining something like non binary to the first type. Their brains aren't wired to adapt to change and their cognitive dissonance will reject it before they've even realised their own brain has made a decision for them.

To the original question. Non binary is rejection of socially imposed ideas of what gender identities are. Society has completely arbitrary rules for what men can present as and what women can present as. For example, women wear skirts and men don't.

I find labels a useful bouncing off point - not to constrain, but to explain. But trans, non binary, are just among my labels. And none of it threatens me in the slightest. It's just different, helps me know how to interact with people."

My ex husband doesn’t believe in anything but male, female, gay or straight. Our youngest child identifies as bi with a preference for females. When they had their long hair cut short, their dad decided it means they want to be male, and it’s a slippery slope from short hair to cutting the breast offs off

Quite ridiculous really. Occasionally they will say they are non binary. I don’t tell them they’re wrong because they are still trying to figure out who they are. I have friends who have children who transitioned, from FTM, they are happy, adjusted young adults. They were supported, they were loved, and didn’t face prejudice from their mums because they didn’t feel that their gender at birth was the correct one.

Until they felt accepted, and safe enough to voice these thoughts and feelings, they were struggling. From speaking to a number of adult friends, who are transitioning, and some who are not but identify as non binary, one of the most prominent things they have discussed has been the effects on their mental health, the negative aspects of it, because they were struggling to be who they were, when facing attack and prejudice.

My ex struggles, but they love our child. They think I’m wrong for not telling them who they should be. I don’t fully understand it myself, but I’m learning. From speaking to parents and friends I have been left with one thing that has stood out, that whatever my child chooses to be, I would rather have them know I will always support them. I don’t have to fully understand to love them. As one friend said “I would rather have a living son, than a dead daughter”.

To me, labels help to understand, but they don’t define a person.

I’ve lived my life struggling with my bisexuality, in a family that won’t accept it. They still don’t know. To my shame I hide it in fear that I’d lose them, I will never be the reason my child has to hide who they are too x

We don’t have to agree with everything a person does, says or feel, but we should behave in a civilised manner, if it is not causing harm.

Recently we attended a comic con at a university, it was refreshing to see toilets that were unisex, for male, female and trans.

I know some won’t agree with my viewpoint or my stance on this, but that’s ok, the world would be a boring place if we all agreed, and there would be no room for personal growth (that’s not negating the views of those who don’t agree with me by the way, but more about the fact that threads like this lead to discussion, and that’s usually a good thing, as everyone has their own opinions, and no one opinion is more valid than another) xx

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *ister CMan
over a year ago

liverpool


"Surely we can be whatever we want to be. It makes no difference to any of our lives what labels or pronouns people would like to use so why even question it? Live and let live.

Well yes, but where do you draw the line? What if somebody wants to be identified as a budgerigar or as Richard III?

False dichotomy. "

Very well said.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"I am not sure, there are too many pronouns nowadays.

I think you might find Shag that there are just about enough pronouns. We scatter them throughout sentences because they are an essential part of language. A bit like how language doesn't really work if you take away any of the other components of grammar - nouns, verbs, adjectives, adverbs.

Quick example, let's repeat the above but take away all those supposedly non-essential grammar things that only exist to confuse people:

" ... "

There, wasn't that so much easier to understand?"

I think people think pronouns are some newfangled woke thing that will bring down society or some shit.

They exist implicitly or explicitly in languages as new and fashionable as ancient Greek as written by Homer.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"There's two types of people in the world.

Those who need everything to be neatly labelled and put in a box so that they can understand the world around them. Any change to these traditional labels are uncomfortable for them and they will resist trying to understand something new.

Then there are those who don't need boxes to understand the world and understand that nothing is black and white. In psychological terms, they have more adaptive schemas.

The second type is always going to have a very difficult time explaining something like non binary to the first type. Their brains aren't wired to adapt to change and their cognitive dissonance will reject it before they've even realised their own brain has made a decision for them.

To the original question. Non binary is rejection of socially imposed ideas of what gender identities are. Society has completely arbitrary rules for what men can present as and what women can present as. For example, women wear skirts and men don't.

I find labels a useful bouncing off point - not to constrain, but to explain. But trans, non binary, are just among my labels. And none of it threatens me in the slightest. It's just different, helps me know how to interact with people.

My ex husband doesn’t believe in anything but male, female, gay or straight. Our youngest child identifies as bi with a preference for females. When they had their long hair cut short, their dad decided it means they want to be male, and it’s a slippery slope from short hair to cutting the breast offs off

Quite ridiculous really. Occasionally they will say they are non binary. I don’t tell them they’re wrong because they are still trying to figure out who they are. I have friends who have children who transitioned, from FTM, they are happy, adjusted young adults. They were supported, they were loved, and didn’t face prejudice from their mums because they didn’t feel that their gender at birth was the correct one.

Until they felt accepted, and safe enough to voice these thoughts and feelings, they were struggling. From speaking to a number of adult friends, who are transitioning, and some who are not but identify as non binary, one of the most prominent things they have discussed has been the effects on their mental health, the negative aspects of it, because they were struggling to be who they were, when facing attack and prejudice.

My ex struggles, but they love our child. They think I’m wrong for not telling them who they should be. I don’t fully understand it myself, but I’m learning. From speaking to parents and friends I have been left with one thing that has stood out, that whatever my child chooses to be, I would rather have them know I will always support them. I don’t have to fully understand to love them. As one friend said “I would rather have a living son, than a dead daughter”.

To me, labels help to understand, but they don’t define a person.

I’ve lived my life struggling with my bisexuality, in a family that won’t accept it. They still don’t know. To my shame I hide it in fear that I’d lose them, I will never be the reason my child has to hide who they are too x

We don’t have to agree with everything a person does, says or feel, but we should behave in a civilised manner, if it is not causing harm.

Recently we attended a comic con at a university, it was refreshing to see toilets that were unisex, for male, female and trans.

I know some won’t agree with my viewpoint or my stance on this, but that’s ok, the world would be a boring place if we all agreed, and there would be no room for personal growth (that’s not negating the views of those who don’t agree with me by the way, but more about the fact that threads like this lead to discussion, and that’s usually a good thing, as everyone has their own opinions, and no one opinion is more valid than another) xx"

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *eroLondonMan
over a year ago

Mayfair


"Surely we can be whatever we want to be. It makes no difference to any of our lives what labels or pronouns people would like to use so why even question it? Live and let live.

Well yes, but where do you draw the line? What if somebody wants to be identified as a {redacted} or as Richard III?"

•

Then we make sure they are comfortably ensconced with the Plantagenets and Yorkists.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"Surely we can be whatever we want to be. It makes no difference to any of our lives what labels or pronouns people would like to use so why even question it? Live and let live.

Well yes, but where do you draw the line? What if somebody wants to be identified as a {redacted} or as Richard III?

•

Then we make sure they are comfortably ensconced with the Plantagenets and Yorkists. "

Yeah. Honestly. As a trump argument this is kind of silly.

If someone wants to identify as a unicorn, pronouns neigh/nee, I'll try to remember and ask them how I support them in that. So the fuck what? It makes as much difference to me as if a colleague tells me they prefer to be called their middle name.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"It's a code isn't it? Oh wait that's binary! it's a load of ?? for the woke brigades load of twoddle if you ask me, your either straight gay or bi and it's as simple as that ??????"

LOL

Being non binary has nothing to do with sexuality.

But comments like this always make for an amazing filter

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"It's a code isn't it? Oh wait that's binary! it's a load of ?? for the woke brigades load of twoddle if you ask me, your either straight gay or bi and it's as simple as that ??????

LOL

Being non binary has nothing to do with sexuality.

But comments like this always make for an amazing filter "

Always

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"They ( the op) obviously does want to know about it, just because someone doesn’t understand something doesn’t mean they don’t want to understand it."

They haven't worded it in a way that comes across as if they were interested in learning a out it

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I personally don't understand how someone can identity as non binary.

I'm a cis woman and have always just felt that way.

That being said I've spent most of my life being confused about my sexuality so I also don't understand how people can only be attracted to be one gender lol

I don't understand things but I respect others that dont identify as or like things the same as I do

It's fine not to understand as long as you acknowledge that and dont be rude or discriminatory to those who are different

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"I personally don't understand how someone can identity as non binary.

I'm a cis woman and have always just felt that way.

That being said I've spent most of my life being confused about my sexuality so I also don't understand how people can only be attracted to be one gender lol

I don't understand things but I respect others that dont identify as or like things the same as I do

It's fine not to understand as long as you acknowledge that and dont be rude or discriminatory to those who are different "

Yeah same. I don't understand. It feels instinctively wrong according to my felt sense of self.

But so does being politically conservative, and I support the right of conservatives to pee in peace too.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I've participated in a few threads like this and it doesn't seem really that anyone can make any kind of comment or ask a genuine question without being jumped on when it comes to these issues. Before the word TERF appears. It seems the aim is to shut down any kind of discussion about gender or sex or trans people. I find that stultifying as I think there are issues to discuss. I think there are clashes between the needs of different groups. But if discussion is shut down - here as every where else it seems - those issues will not be resolved. Those clashes won't be resolved.

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By *eroLondonMan
over a year ago

Mayfair


"I personally don't understand how someone can identity as non binary.

I'm a cis woman and have always just felt that way.

That being said I've spent most of my life being confused about my sexuality so I also don't understand how people can only be attracted to be one gender lol

I don't understand things but I respect others that dont identify as or like things the same as I do

It's fine not to understand as long as you acknowledge that and dont be rude or discriminatory to those who are different

Yeah same. I don't understand. It feels instinctively wrong according to my felt sense of self.

But so does being politically conservative, and I support the right of conservatives to pee in peace too."

•

I wouldn't go that far. I would like Hell and fury on Boris's bladder as he urinates and fire and brimstone as he catches his pecker on his zipper.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *andyfloss2000Woman
over a year ago

ashford


"There's two types of people in the world.

Those who need everything to be neatly labelled and put in a box so that they can understand the world around them. Any change to these traditional labels are uncomfortable for them and they will resist trying to understand something new.

Then there are those who don't need boxes to understand the world and understand that nothing is black and white. In psychological terms, they have more adaptive schemas.

The second type is always going to have a very difficult time explaining something like non binary to the first type. Their brains aren't wired to adapt to change and their cognitive dissonance will reject it before they've even realised their own brain has made a decision for them.

To the original question. Non binary is rejection of socially imposed ideas of what gender identities are. Society has completely arbitrary rules for what men can present as and what women can present as. For example, women wear skirts and men don't.

I find labels a useful bouncing off point - not to constrain, but to explain. But trans, non binary, are just among my labels. And none of it threatens me in the slightest. It's just different, helps me know how to interact with people.

My ex husband doesn’t believe in anything but male, female, gay or straight. Our youngest child identifies as bi with a preference for females. When they had their long hair cut short, their dad decided it means they want to be male, and it’s a slippery slope from short hair to cutting the breast offs off

Quite ridiculous really. Occasionally they will say they are non binary. I don’t tell them they’re wrong because they are still trying to figure out who they are. I have friends who have children who transitioned, from FTM, they are happy, adjusted young adults. They were supported, they were loved, and didn’t face prejudice from their mums because they didn’t feel that their gender at birth was the correct one.

Until they felt accepted, and safe enough to voice these thoughts and feelings, they were struggling. From speaking to a number of adult friends, who are transitioning, and some who are not but identify as non binary, one of the most prominent things they have discussed has been the effects on their mental health, the negative aspects of it, because they were struggling to be who they were, when facing attack and prejudice.

My ex struggles, but they love our child. They think I’m wrong for not telling them who they should be. I don’t fully understand it myself, but I’m learning. From speaking to parents and friends I have been left with one thing that has stood out, that whatever my child chooses to be, I would rather have them know I will always support them. I don’t have to fully understand to love them. As one friend said “I would rather have a living son, than a dead daughter”.

To me, labels help to understand, but they don’t define a person.

I’ve lived my life struggling with my bisexuality, in a family that won’t accept it. They still don’t know. To my shame I hide it in fear that I’d lose them, I will never be the reason my child has to hide who they are too x

We don’t have to agree with everything a person does, says or feel, but we should behave in a civilised manner, if it is not causing harm.

Recently we attended a comic con at a university, it was refreshing to see toilets that were unisex, for male, female and trans.

I know some won’t agree with my viewpoint or my stance on this, but that’s ok, the world would be a boring place if we all agreed, and there would be no room for personal growth (that’s not negating the views of those who don’t agree with me by the way, but more about the fact that threads like this lead to discussion, and that’s usually a good thing, as everyone has their own opinions, and no one opinion is more valid than another) xx"

U sound like a lovely parent! xx

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *olly_chromaticTV/TS
over a year ago

Stockport


"I personally don't understand how someone can identity as non binary.

I'm a cis woman and have always just felt that way.

That being said I've spent most of my life being confused about my sexuality so I also don't understand how people can only be attracted to be one gender lol

I don't understand things but I respect others that dont identify as or like things the same as I do

It's fine not to understand as long as you acknowledge that and dont be rude or discriminatory to those who are different "

Exactly. If we had to understand things before we could live with them... Well 99.9% of the people in this country don't understand electricity, radio waves, fire, semiconductors, light amplification by stimulated emission of radiation, the global positioning system, Bernoulli's theorem (no airplanes without that one), the chemical composition of sugar, the raft of many thousands of specification documents without which the internet could not exist... The list is literally endless.

To the people that continually moan "I don't understand xyz, and I'm not putting up with it" my response is "go do without all the things you don't understand then, it'll make life so much better for the rest of us".

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *nked and Ms InkedCouple
over a year ago

nr wrexham


"There's two types of people in the world.

Those who need everything to be neatly labelled and put in a box so that they can understand the world around them. Any change to these traditional labels are uncomfortable for them and they will resist trying to understand something new.

Then there are those who don't need boxes to understand the world and understand that nothing is black and white. In psychological terms, they have more adaptive schemas.

The second type is always going to have a very difficult time explaining something like non binary to the first type. Their brains aren't wired to adapt to change and their cognitive dissonance will reject it before they've even realised their own brain has made a decision for them.

To the original question. Non binary is rejection of socially imposed ideas of what gender identities are. Society has completely arbitrary rules for what men can present as and what women can present as. For example, women wear skirts and men don't.

I find labels a useful bouncing off point - not to constrain, but to explain. But trans, non binary, are just among my labels. And none of it threatens me in the slightest. It's just different, helps me know how to interact with people.

My ex husband doesn’t believe in anything but male, female, gay or straight. Our youngest child identifies as bi with a preference for females. When they had their long hair cut short, their dad decided it means they want to be male, and it’s a slippery slope from short hair to cutting the breast offs off

Quite ridiculous really. Occasionally they will say they are non binary. I don’t tell them they’re wrong because they are still trying to figure out who they are. I have friends who have children who transitioned, from FTM, they are happy, adjusted young adults. They were supported, they were loved, and didn’t face prejudice from their mums because they didn’t feel that their gender at birth was the correct one.

Until they felt accepted, and safe enough to voice these thoughts and feelings, they were struggling. From speaking to a number of adult friends, who are transitioning, and some who are not but identify as non binary, one of the most prominent things they have discussed has been the effects on their mental health, the negative aspects of it, because they were struggling to be who they were, when facing attack and prejudice.

My ex struggles, but they love our child. They think I’m wrong for not telling them who they should be. I don’t fully understand it myself, but I’m learning. From speaking to parents and friends I have been left with one thing that has stood out, that whatever my child chooses to be, I would rather have them know I will always support them. I don’t have to fully understand to love them. As one friend said “I would rather have a living son, than a dead daughter”.

To me, labels help to understand, but they don’t define a person.

I’ve lived my life struggling with my bisexuality, in a family that won’t accept it. They still don’t know. To my shame I hide it in fear that I’d lose them, I will never be the reason my child has to hide who they are too x

We don’t have to agree with everything a person does, says or feel, but we should behave in a civilised manner, if it is not causing harm.

Recently we attended a comic con at a university, it was refreshing to see toilets that were unisex, for male, female and trans.

I know some won’t agree with my viewpoint or my stance on this, but that’s ok, the world would be a boring place if we all agreed, and there would be no room for personal growth (that’s not negating the views of those who don’t agree with me by the way, but more about the fact that threads like this lead to discussion, and that’s usually a good thing, as everyone has their own opinions, and no one opinion is more valid than another) xx

U sound like a lovely parent! xx"

Thank you xx

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *aunchy RaccoonsCouple
over a year ago

Exeter


"We've always thought this could become a dangerous game as surly there are guys out there will use it to identify as what they want just so that they can go sniffing about in ladies toilets.

Why is this argument always used? How about ladies identifying as NB so they can go sniffing in blokes toilets? (One thing I've found since transitioning is the queues are longer for the ladies, where's the attraction in that?)"

Don't be silly, we all know that 99% that might do it will be men.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"We've always thought this could become a dangerous game as surly there are guys out there will use it to identify as what they want just so that they can go sniffing about in ladies toilets.

Why is this argument always used? How about ladies identifying as NB so they can go sniffing in blokes toilets? (One thing I've found since transitioning is the queues are longer for the ladies, where's the attraction in that?)

Don't be silly, we all know that 99% that might do it will be men."

Presumably it would be rational to create public policy on what *is*, not what might be.

As it stands, the vast, overwhelming majority of attacks in bathrooms have trans people as victims.

But then, who let facts get in the way of lynch mob hysteria?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Just to add one thing to the convo - I've known a few NB people and I have to say they are some of the most intelligent, decent, accepting, nicest, caring and considerate people I've ever met.

Please - don't take this as me saying "all people who aren't NB are none of the above" - because it 1000000% isn't.

What Im trying to say is that many NB (and LGBT people too) have gone through so much anxiety, stress, depression and general shitty mental health, and taken so much abuse just trying to live in peace, that they realise arguing and hating anyone really isn't good for anyones health.

So in my mind, once someone has come to terms with being NB/LGBT, they tend to be past hating and arguing. This then leads to a more accepting and considerate view on life and interacting with the world. Sorry - that was a bit deep wasn't it!?

Threads like this often resort to bad will in both directions, so all I'd ask is that anyone posting anything, just stop for a second and think how you would feel if what you were about to say were to be thrown at you for something you have not control or influence over. If it doesn't feel great, then maybe stop for a mo and reconsider hitting that post button.

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By *aunchy RaccoonsCouple
over a year ago

Exeter


"We've always thought this could become a dangerous game as surly there are guys out there will use it to identify as what they want just so that they can go sniffing about in ladies toilets.

And Isis can learn to be pilots to plot terror attacks yet we don't stop all Muslims from flying planes, do we? This is just hate speech preying on the minds of the easily outraged. "

Not a hate speech at all. Didn't suggest at all that all NB, Trans etc do this. Just was pointing out that there will probably be men out there that are into that sort of thing.

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By *ister CMan
over a year ago

liverpool


"They ( the op) obviously does want to know about it, just because someone doesn’t understand something doesn’t mean they don’t want to understand it.

Yes. Very evident from the fact that they have come back and responded to precisely zero comments on the thread they started. "

I mean, they may be offline or just busy with life...?

They really aren't the arbiters of the post either...

Unless theres an unwritten rule...?

But yeah, very evident other than this...

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"Just to add one thing to the convo - I've known a few NB people and I have to say they are some of the most intelligent, decent, accepting, nicest, caring and considerate people I've ever met.

Please - don't take this as me saying "all people who aren't NB are none of the above" - because it 1000000% isn't.

What Im trying to say is that many NB (and LGBT people too) have gone through so much anxiety, stress, depression and general shitty mental health, and taken so much abuse just trying to live in peace, that they realise arguing and hating anyone really isn't good for anyones health.

So in my mind, once someone has come to terms with being NB/LGBT, they tend to be past hating and arguing. This then leads to a more accepting and considerate view on life and interacting with the world. Sorry - that was a bit deep wasn't it!?

Threads like this often resort to bad will in both directions, so all I'd ask is that anyone posting anything, just stop for a second and think how you would feel if what you were about to say were to be thrown at you for something you have not control or influence over. If it doesn't feel great, then maybe stop for a mo and reconsider hitting that post button. "

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham


"We've always thought this could become a dangerous game as surly there are guys out there will use it to identify as what they want just so that they can go sniffing about in ladies toilets.

And Isis can learn to be pilots to plot terror attacks yet we don't stop all Muslims from flying planes, do we? This is just hate speech preying on the minds of the easily outraged.

Not a hate speech at all. Didn't suggest at all that all NB, Trans etc do this. Just was pointing out that there will probably be men out there that are into that sort of thing."

But it's a 'dangerous game'

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Just to add one thing to the convo - I've known a few NB people and I have to say they are some of the most intelligent, decent, accepting, nicest, caring and considerate people I've ever met.

Please - don't take this as me saying "all people who aren't NB are none of the above" - because it 1000000% isn't.

What Im trying to say is that many NB (and LGBT people too) have gone through so much anxiety, stress, depression and general shitty mental health, and taken so much abuse just trying to live in peace, that they realise arguing and hating anyone really isn't good for anyones health.

So in my mind, once someone has come to terms with being NB/LGBT, they tend to be past hating and arguing. This then leads to a more accepting and considerate view on life and interacting with the world. Sorry - that was a bit deep wasn't it!?

Threads like this often resort to bad will in both directions, so all I'd ask is that anyone posting anything, just stop for a second and think how you would feel if what you were about to say were to be thrown at you for something you have not control or influence over. If it doesn't feel great, then maybe stop for a mo and reconsider hitting that post button. "

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"We've always thought this could become a dangerous game as surly there are guys out there will use it to identify as what they want just so that they can go sniffing about in ladies toilets.

And Isis can learn to be pilots to plot terror attacks yet we don't stop all Muslims from flying planes, do we? This is just hate speech preying on the minds of the easily outraged.

Not a hate speech at all. Didn't suggest at all that all NB, Trans etc do this. Just was pointing out that there will probably be men out there that are into that sort of thing.

But it's a 'dangerous game' "
can to find the original quote ...

OP (of this quote) you aren't even suggesting any NB / trans do this. But instead that some CIS men may take advantage of the system to be be predators.

So we should ignore the needs and wishes of trans people because of some CIS men. That may feel unfair to some.

Taking it to an extreme, let's ban women from the workplace because some men abuse their power.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"We've always thought this could become a dangerous game as surly there are guys out there will use it to identify as what they want just so that they can go sniffing about in ladies toilets.

And Isis can learn to be pilots to plot terror attacks yet we don't stop all Muslims from flying planes, do we? This is just hate speech preying on the minds of the easily outraged.

Not a hate speech at all. Didn't suggest at all that all NB, Trans etc do this. Just was pointing out that there will probably be men out there that are into that sort of thing.

But it's a 'dangerous game' can to find the original quote ...

OP (of this quote) you aren't even suggesting any NB / trans do this. But instead that some CIS men may take advantage of the system to be be predators.

So we should ignore the needs and wishes of trans people because of some CIS men. That may feel unfair to some.

Taking it to an extreme, let's ban women from the workplace because some men abuse their power. "

Yeah, it's pretty much the same thing

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Just what is non binary. Gender neutral etc. Surely we are all just male or female. "

It’s another way of saying mentally I’ll attention seeker!

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By *olly_chromaticTV/TS
over a year ago

Stockport


"I've participated in a few threads like this and it doesn't seem really that anyone can make any kind of comment or ask a genuine question without being jumped on when it comes to these issues. Before the word TERF appears. It seems the aim is to shut down any kind of discussion about gender or sex or trans people. I find that stultifying as I think there are issues to discuss. I think there are clashes between the needs of different groups. But if discussion is shut down - here as every where else it seems - those issues will not be resolved. Those clashes won't be resolved. "

The problem is Damselfly, that in the majority of these discussions the two sides are not debating from the same positions of privilege. On one side there is a group of people saying "please just let us live in peace and go about our daily business". On the other side there are people saying "you should not be allowed to exist". There is thus no surprise when trans people can become tired, annoyed and downright hostile when the same debate arises again and again and again and again. I can guarantee that within a few days there will be another thread started on some topic associated with trans people, demanding that we explain ourselves yet again, and that within a dozen posts down that thread someone will moan that they were "just asking" and that trans people are just being hostile by not debating properly (even though, yes we usually do...).

The answers are out there already for anyone that actually does want to know, for anybody that is curious in good faith. We haven't closed down debate, we've done the debate a thousand times over. Most of us now just want to be able to go for a pee when we're out shopping, not be challenged in bad faith every ten minutes by people that do not actually even want to listen but just do it to attack us.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Actually scientifically there isnt just male and female.

Intersex has been around and well documented for quite some time.

It has nothing to do with the PC brigade or any other crap people spew on the name of hating for the sake of hating.

Nobody is forcing you to understand it beyond the basics, just to be respectful and let people be themselves

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Just what is non binary. Gender neutral etc. Surely we are all just male or female.

It’s another way of saying mentally I’ll attention seeker!"

Another great filter comment

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By *RANDMRSJAECouple
over a year ago

chester

Really interesting thread! I don’t have anything intellectual to add whatsoever, it would be so nice to be able to coexist happily with everyone who makes life colourful.

I did have an aunt who was so masculine looking was mistaken for a TV more than once! Her walk, her height and build were out of place for a woman. She was an accomplished and intelligent lady. Thankfully no one ever questioned her in the ladies loos!!

I couldn’t care less who uses which lav so long as they wash their hands.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *penbicoupleCouple
over a year ago

Northampton


"I am not sure, there are too many pronouns nowadays."

There really aren't.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"Really interesting thread! I don’t have anything intellectual to add whatsoever, it would be so nice to be able to coexist happily with everyone who makes life colourful.

I did have an aunt who was so masculine looking was mistaken for a TV more than once! Her walk, her height and build were out of place for a woman. She was an accomplished and intelligent lady. Thankfully no one ever questioned her in the ladies loos!!

I couldn’t care less who uses which lav so long as they wash their hands. "

Sometimes when I have shorter hair I get called sir.

If anyone attacked me for using the women's loo, I'd use every (legal) resource available to me to make their life miserable.

And it shouldn't fucking matter that I was, in fact, born with female genitalia. Let me fucking pee.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"The whole argument that this increases risk to women is ridiculous.

There is no evidence that letting transgender people use public facilities that align with their gender identity increases safety risks.

And UCLA did a study on exactly this! The study rigorously tested the relationship between nondiscrimination laws in public accommodations and reports of crime in public restrooms and other gender-segregated facilities.

However, forcing trans women to use male facilities will and does lead to a large number of sexual attacks on them.

Actually there are documented cases where a trans person has assaulted a woman in a fem toilet in UK. Google it

And I'd add to this that it does not automatically follow (and I'm sure you are not suggesting) that every transwoman is a potential predator.

The point is, is we have to accept every and anyone who claims to be a woman then how do we differentiate between the predators and the people struggling with their identity who feels safer in a woman's toilet?

You can't. It's impossible to tell by looking.

Hence the need for a third space. Not just in toilets. In every space which was previously designated "female only".

How would you differentiate between a small breasted, not particularly hippy woman, who happens to have a deep voice, and dresses androgynously, from a trans woman?

Do we need to have photo ID to use public toilets?

90% of the time I can tell by their gait and how they carry themselves tbh.

I was out last night in a bar and had to put my specs on to send a text message....I regularly need to put them on to spot friends in a busy cafe or pub.

There was at individual standing at the bar last night about 18ft away from me. Long dark hair, short dress and high heels. When they walked across the room I already knew they weren't a woman. Put on my specs and I was right.

What do you want ! A blue Peter Badge ? "

No.

I'd be happy with a women's only spaces.

More chance of a fucking Blue Peter badge though.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

90% of the time I can tell by their gait and how they carry themselves tbh.

I was out last night in a bar and had to put my specs on to send a text message....I regularly need to put them on to spot friends in a busy cafe or pub.

There was at individual standing at the bar last night about 18ft away from me. Long dark hair, short dress and high heels. When they walked across the room I already knew they weren't a woman. Put on my specs and I was right.

Creepy "

That's not very pleasant.

She looked quite nice actually.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"The whole argument that this increases risk to women is ridiculous.

There is no evidence that letting transgender people use public facilities that align with their gender identity increases safety risks.

And UCLA did a study on exactly this! The study rigorously tested the relationship between nondiscrimination laws in public accommodations and reports of crime in public restrooms and other gender-segregated facilities.

However, forcing trans women to use male facilities will and does lead to a large number of sexual attacks on them.

Actually there are documented cases where a trans person has assaulted a woman in a fem toilet in UK. Google it

And I'd add to this that it does not automatically follow (and I'm sure you are not suggesting) that every transwoman is a potential predator.

The point is, is we have to accept every and anyone who claims to be a woman then how do we differentiate between the predators and the people struggling with their identity who feels safer in a woman's toilet?

You can't. It's impossible to tell by looking.

Hence the need for a third space. Not just in toilets. In every space which was previously designated "female only".

How would you differentiate between a small breasted, not particularly hippy woman, who happens to have a deep voice, and dresses androgynously, from a trans woman?

Do we need to have photo ID to use public toilets?

90% of the time I can tell by their gait and how they carry themselves tbh.

I was out last night in a bar and had to put my specs on to send a text message....I regularly need to put them on to spot friends in a busy cafe or pub.

There was at individual standing at the bar last night about 18ft away from me. Long dark hair, short dress and high heels. When they walked across the room I already knew they weren't a woman. Put on my specs and I was right.

What do you want ! A blue Peter Badge ?

No.

I'd be happy with a women's only spaces.

More chance of a fucking Blue Peter badge though."

How would you enforce this?

Is denying 10% of the population a dignified space to pee worth it to you? (Your margin of error)

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's a 2

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *RANDMRSJAECouple
over a year ago

chester


"Really interesting thread! I don’t have anything intellectual to add whatsoever, it would be so nice to be able to coexist happily with everyone who makes life colourful.

I did have an aunt who was so masculine looking was mistaken for a TV more than once! Her walk, her height and build were out of place for a woman. She was an accomplished and intelligent lady. Thankfully no one ever questioned her in the ladies loos!!

I couldn’t care less who uses which lav so long as they wash their hands.

Sometimes when I have shorter hair I get called sir.

If anyone attacked me for using the women's loo, I'd use every (legal) resource available to me to make their life miserable.

And it shouldn't fucking matter that I was, in fact, born with female genitalia. Let me fucking pee."

Who even takes this much notice of other people in the toilets?

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"Really interesting thread! I don’t have anything intellectual to add whatsoever, it would be so nice to be able to coexist happily with everyone who makes life colourful.

I did have an aunt who was so masculine looking was mistaken for a TV more than once! Her walk, her height and build were out of place for a woman. She was an accomplished and intelligent lady. Thankfully no one ever questioned her in the ladies loos!!

I couldn’t care less who uses which lav so long as they wash their hands.

Sometimes when I have shorter hair I get called sir.

If anyone attacked me for using the women's loo, I'd use every (legal) resource available to me to make their life miserable.

And it shouldn't fucking matter that I was, in fact, born with female genitalia. Let me fucking pee.

Who even takes this much notice of other people in the toilets?

"

Some people do, apparently

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *olly_chromaticTV/TS
over a year ago

Stockport


"Just what is non binary. Gender neutral etc. Surely we are all just male or female.

It’s another way of saying mentally I’ll attention seeker!"

Do you know who are the least likely people in society to be mentally ill or attention seekers? Gender variant folk, who have actually spent a huge amount of time examining their own psyche and sense of self, and know that they get a much more peaceful life if they stay as low profile as possible.

Do you know who are the most likely people in society to be mentally ill attention seekers? Those that spend an inordinate amount of their lives attacking a small group that they know nothing about and who have no impact whatsoever upon their lives.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"Just what is non binary. Gender neutral etc. Surely we are all just male or female.

It’s another way of saying mentally I’ll attention seeker!

Do you know who are the least likely people in society to be mentally ill or attention seekers? Gender variant folk, who have actually spent a huge amount of time examining their own psyche and sense of self, and know that they get a much more peaceful life if they stay as low profile as possible.

Do you know who are the most likely people in society to be mentally ill attention seekers? Those that spend an inordinate amount of their lives attacking a small group that they know nothing about and who have no impact whatsoever upon their lives."

Which shows how socially valuable gender diverse people are. Given the overwhelming social obstacles put in their way, to be able to overcome bigotry based trauma and come out healthy - we should take note of the most resilient and reward them. They're the ones who are best equipped to lead society through crises.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *tephTV67TV/TS
over a year ago

Cheshire


"Just what is non binary. Gender neutral etc. Surely we are all just male or female.

It’s another way of saying mentally I’ll attention seeker!

Another great filter comment "

For every intelligent comment even those I disagree with, you’ll always get a truly ignorant contributor.

No expansion on why, they think someone who sees themselves as non binary is mentally ill.

So for the guy who thinks non binary people are mentally ill, care to expand or are you just a troll ?

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *ister CMan
over a year ago

liverpool


"Just what is non binary. Gender neutral etc. Surely we are all just male or female.

It’s another way of saying mentally I’ll attention seeker!

Do you know who are the least likely people in society to be mentally ill or attention seekers? Gender variant folk, who have actually spent a huge amount of time examining their own psyche and sense of self, and know that they get a much more peaceful life if they stay as low profile as possible.

Do you know who are the most likely people in society to be mentally ill attention seekers? Those that spend an inordinate amount of their lives attacking a small group that they know nothing about and who have no impact whatsoever upon their lives."

Is that true...?

I mean my understanding was data indicates that 82% of transgender individuals have considered killing themselves and 40% have attempted suicide, with suicidality highest among transgender youth...

Theyre horrible figures... can I ask where your information came from?

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *ess King tvTV/TS
over a year ago

KING'S LYNN


"Just another label that don`t really mean anything "

Exactly! Load of tosh! I think tomorrow I shall be a fluid non binary gender penguin

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"Just what is non binary. Gender neutral etc. Surely we are all just male or female.

It’s another way of saying mentally I’ll attention seeker!

Do you know who are the least likely people in society to be mentally ill or attention seekers? Gender variant folk, who have actually spent a huge amount of time examining their own psyche and sense of self, and know that they get a much more peaceful life if they stay as low profile as possible.

Do you know who are the most likely people in society to be mentally ill attention seekers? Those that spend an inordinate amount of their lives attacking a small group that they know nothing about and who have no impact whatsoever upon their lives.

Is that true...?

I mean my understanding was data indicates that 82% of transgender individuals have considered killing themselves and 40% have attempted suicide, with suicidality highest among transgender youth...

Theyre horrible figures... can I ask where your information came from?

"

Mental health is caused by both nature and nurture

The profound hatred towards trans people is very clearly a leading factor in their struggles.

Those that overcome that have shown profound resilience, and such strength should be recognised in order to lead people through a troubled world.

Lack of resilience - those without such trauma, who nevertheless stir hatred - should also be noted in the distribution of power.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I've participated in a few threads like this and it doesn't seem really that anyone can make any kind of comment or ask a genuine question without being jumped on when it comes to these issues. Before the word TERF appears. It seems the aim is to shut down any kind of discussion about gender or sex or trans people. I find that stultifying as I think there are issues to discuss. I think there are clashes between the needs of different groups. But if discussion is shut down - here as every where else it seems - those issues will not be resolved. Those clashes won't be resolved.

The problem is Damselfly, that in the majority of these discussions the two sides are not debating from the same positions of privilege. On one side there is a group of people saying "please just let us live in peace and go about our daily business". On the other side there are people saying "you should not be allowed to exist". There is thus no surprise when trans people can become tired, annoyed and downright hostile when the same debate arises again and again and again and again. I can guarantee that within a few days there will be another thread started on some topic associated with trans people, demanding that we explain ourselves yet again, and that within a dozen posts down that thread someone will moan that they were "just asking" and that trans people are just being hostile by not debating properly (even though, yes we usually do...).

The answers are out there already for anyone that actually does want to know, for anybody that is curious in good faith. We haven't closed down debate, we've done the debate a thousand times over. Most of us now just want to be able to go for a pee when we're out shopping, not be challenged in bad faith every ten minutes by people that do not actually even want to listen but just do it to attack us."

Sorry but starting off with saying the "other side" don't want trans people to exist is hyperbolic. I have some gender critical views - that doesn't remotely mean I wish genocide upon trans people. Nor have I seen anyone else on this express that wish. No-one has asked trans people on the thread to justify their existence.

If you don't wish to debate/discuss the issues - simply don't go on those threads. I'd say that to anyone where a topic is triggering like racism or misogyny. Yes, calling people names closes down debate. Calling women who have gender critical questions or views TERFs is closing down debate.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *aunchy RaccoonsCouple
over a year ago

Exeter


"We've always thought this could become a dangerous game as surly there are guys out there will use it to identify as what they want just so that they can go sniffing about in ladies toilets.

And Isis can learn to be pilots to plot terror attacks yet we don't stop all Muslims from flying planes, do we? This is just hate speech preying on the minds of the easily outraged.

Not a hate speech at all. Didn't suggest at all that all NB, Trans etc do this. Just was pointing out that there will probably be men out there that are into that sort of thing.

But it's a 'dangerous game' "

So are you suggesting that there won't be any non Trans, NB men that will try this?

I guess it'd be a really tricky thing to spot and to handle.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *ister CMan
over a year ago

liverpool


"Just what is non binary. Gender neutral etc. Surely we are all just male or female.

It’s another way of saying mentally I’ll attention seeker!

Do you know who are the least likely people in society to be mentally ill or attention seekers? Gender variant folk, who have actually spent a huge amount of time examining their own psyche and sense of self, and know that they get a much more peaceful life if they stay as low profile as possible.

Do you know who are the most likely people in society to be mentally ill attention seekers? Those that spend an inordinate amount of their lives attacking a small group that they know nothing about and who have no impact whatsoever upon their lives.

Is that true...?

I mean my understanding was data indicates that 82% of transgender individuals have considered killing themselves and 40% have attempted suicide, with suicidality highest among transgender youth...

Theyre horrible figures... can I ask where your information came from?

Mental health is caused by both nature and nurture

The profound hatred towards trans people is very clearly a leading factor in their struggles.

Those that overcome that have shown profound resilience, and such strength should be recognised in order to lead people through a troubled world.

Lack of resilience - those without such trauma, who nevertheless stir hatred - should also be noted in the distribution of power."

So a person who has experienced a dysphoria and dealt with it one way or another, makes them better equipped to face life and societal challenges to the extent they should be arbiters of power...?

Is that what you're saying?

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham


"We've always thought this could become a dangerous game as surly there are guys out there will use it to identify as what they want just so that they can go sniffing about in ladies toilets.

And Isis can learn to be pilots to plot terror attacks yet we don't stop all Muslims from flying planes, do we? This is just hate speech preying on the minds of the easily outraged.

Not a hate speech at all. Didn't suggest at all that all NB, Trans etc do this. Just was pointing out that there will probably be men out there that are into that sort of thing.

But it's a 'dangerous game'

So are you suggesting that there won't be any non Trans, NB men that will try this?

I guess it'd be a really tricky thing to spot and to handle.

"

No. I said earlier on there needs to be more done to spot predatory people. Just as more has been done to identify potential terrorists but in the meantime we should not tar all with the same brush much like we don't claim all Muslims are terrorists because we know that's bollocks.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"Just what is non binary. Gender neutral etc. Surely we are all just male or female.

It’s another way of saying mentally I’ll attention seeker!

Do you know who are the least likely people in society to be mentally ill or attention seekers? Gender variant folk, who have actually spent a huge amount of time examining their own psyche and sense of self, and know that they get a much more peaceful life if they stay as low profile as possible.

Do you know who are the most likely people in society to be mentally ill attention seekers? Those that spend an inordinate amount of their lives attacking a small group that they know nothing about and who have no impact whatsoever upon their lives.

Is that true...?

I mean my understanding was data indicates that 82% of transgender individuals have considered killing themselves and 40% have attempted suicide, with suicidality highest among transgender youth...

Theyre horrible figures... can I ask where your information came from?

Mental health is caused by both nature and nurture

The profound hatred towards trans people is very clearly a leading factor in their struggles.

Those that overcome that have shown profound resilience, and such strength should be recognised in order to lead people through a troubled world.

Lack of resilience - those without such trauma, who nevertheless stir hatred - should also be noted in the distribution of power.

So a person who has experienced a dysphoria and dealt with it one way or another, makes them better equipped to face life and societal challenges to the extent they should be arbiters of power...?

Is that what you're saying? "

Someone who has overcome such significant trauma, yes. Such resilience and anti fragility is prized among organisations.

While those who take their angst and turn it onto already persecuted groups, should not be let anywhere near power. Not only are they the opposite of anti fragile, but we know full well where such tendencies can lead

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"We've always thought this could become a dangerous game as surly there are guys out there will use it to identify as what they want just so that they can go sniffing about in ladies toilets.

And Isis can learn to be pilots to plot terror attacks yet we don't stop all Muslims from flying planes, do we? This is just hate speech preying on the minds of the easily outraged.

Not a hate speech at all. Didn't suggest at all that all NB, Trans etc do this. Just was pointing out that there will probably be men out there that are into that sort of thing.

But it's a 'dangerous game'

So are you suggesting that there won't be any non Trans, NB men that will try this?

I guess it'd be a really tricky thing to spot and to handle.

No. I said earlier on there needs to be more done to spot predatory people. Just as more has been done to identify potential terrorists but in the meantime we should not tar all with the same brush much like we don't claim all Muslims are terrorists because we know that's bollocks. "

I think we should aim policy at preventing as many attacks as possible.

Given that trans people are disproportionately victims, creating a song and dance that draws greater attention to them, seems to be counterintuitive. Particularly when it might also draw gender non conforming cis people into being scrutinised, too.

My aim is less violence. Driven by the data that exists, not what ifs and boogeymen.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

Well. Good thread about non binary people, everyone. Totally didn't go into dogwhistle attacks of a different group. Not at all

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By *aunchy RaccoonsCouple
over a year ago

Exeter


"We've always thought this could become a dangerous game as surly there are guys out there will use it to identify as what they want just so that they can go sniffing about in ladies toilets.

And Isis can learn to be pilots to plot terror attacks yet we don't stop all Muslims from flying planes, do we? This is just hate speech preying on the minds of the easily outraged.

Not a hate speech at all. Didn't suggest at all that all NB, Trans etc do this. Just was pointing out that there will probably be men out there that are into that sort of thing.

But it's a 'dangerous game'

So are you suggesting that there won't be any non Trans, NB men that will try this?

I guess it'd be a really tricky thing to spot and to handle.

No. I said earlier on there needs to be more done to spot predatory people. Just as more has been done to identify potential terrorists but in the meantime we should not tar all with the same brush much like we don't claim all Muslims are terrorists because we know that's bollocks. "

100% agree.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *ister CMan
over a year ago

liverpool


"Just what is non binary. Gender neutral etc. Surely we are all just male or female.

It’s another way of saying mentally I’ll attention seeker!

Do you know who are the least likely people in society to be mentally ill or attention seekers? Gender variant folk, who have actually spent a huge amount of time examining their own psyche and sense of self, and know that they get a much more peaceful life if they stay as low profile as possible.

Do you know who are the most likely people in society to be mentally ill attention seekers? Those that spend an inordinate amount of their lives attacking a small group that they know nothing about and who have no impact whatsoever upon their lives.

Is that true...?

I mean my understanding was data indicates that 82% of transgender individuals have considered killing themselves and 40% have attempted suicide, with suicidality highest among transgender youth...

Theyre horrible figures... can I ask where your information came from?

Mental health is caused by both nature and nurture

The profound hatred towards trans people is very clearly a leading factor in their struggles.

Those that overcome that have shown profound resilience, and such strength should be recognised in order to lead people through a troubled world.

Lack of resilience - those without such trauma, who nevertheless stir hatred - should also be noted in the distribution of power.

So a person who has experienced a dysphoria and dealt with it one way or another, makes them better equipped to face life and societal challenges to the extent they should be arbiters of power...?

Is that what you're saying?

Someone who has overcome such significant trauma, yes. Such resilience and anti fragility is prized among organisations.

While those who take their angst and turn it onto already persecuted groups, should not be let anywhere near power. Not only are they the opposite of anti fragile, but we know full well where such tendencies can lead "

Am glad we could clear that up. Now I can safely say its utter shite.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"Just what is non binary. Gender neutral etc. Surely we are all just male or female.

It’s another way of saying mentally I’ll attention seeker!

Do you know who are the least likely people in society to be mentally ill or attention seekers? Gender variant folk, who have actually spent a huge amount of time examining their own psyche and sense of self, and know that they get a much more peaceful life if they stay as low profile as possible.

Do you know who are the most likely people in society to be mentally ill attention seekers? Those that spend an inordinate amount of their lives attacking a small group that they know nothing about and who have no impact whatsoever upon their lives.

Is that true...?

I mean my understanding was data indicates that 82% of transgender individuals have considered killing themselves and 40% have attempted suicide, with suicidality highest among transgender youth...

Theyre horrible figures... can I ask where your information came from?

Mental health is caused by both nature and nurture

The profound hatred towards trans people is very clearly a leading factor in their struggles.

Those that overcome that have shown profound resilience, and such strength should be recognised in order to lead people through a troubled world.

Lack of resilience - those without such trauma, who nevertheless stir hatred - should also be noted in the distribution of power.

So a person who has experienced a dysphoria and dealt with it one way or another, makes them better equipped to face life and societal challenges to the extent they should be arbiters of power...?

Is that what you're saying?

Someone who has overcome such significant trauma, yes. Such resilience and anti fragility is prized among organisations.

While those who take their angst and turn it onto already persecuted groups, should not be let anywhere near power. Not only are they the opposite of anti fragile, but we know full well where such tendencies can lead

Am glad we could clear that up. Now I can safely say its utter shite. "

I'm glad you've demonstrated the full scholarly depths of your insight. Because you have

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *ess King tvTV/TS
over a year ago

KING'S LYNN

I'm sick of being told what I can and cant say

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By *rancois Du BoisMan
over a year ago

Down the back of the sofa.

I’m an EnBie, very newly out so this thread has both been depressing and uplifting. Thankyou to the supporters. Sit in a bin to the people that activity just want to be an awful human.

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By *ister CMan
over a year ago

liverpool


"Just what is non binary. Gender neutral etc. Surely we are all just male or female.

It’s another way of saying mentally I’ll attention seeker!

Do you know who are the least likely people in society to be mentally ill or attention seekers? Gender variant folk, who have actually spent a huge amount of time examining their own psyche and sense of self, and know that they get a much more peaceful life if they stay as low profile as possible.

Do you know who are the most likely people in society to be mentally ill attention seekers? Those that spend an inordinate amount of their lives attacking a small group that they know nothing about and who have no impact whatsoever upon their lives.

Is that true...?

I mean my understanding was data indicates that 82% of transgender individuals have considered killing themselves and 40% have attempted suicide, with suicidality highest among transgender youth...

Theyre horrible figures... can I ask where your information came from?

Mental health is caused by both nature and nurture

The profound hatred towards trans people is very clearly a leading factor in their struggles.

Those that overcome that have shown profound resilience, and such strength should be recognised in order to lead people through a troubled world.

Lack of resilience - those without such trauma, who nevertheless stir hatred - should also be noted in the distribution of power.

So a person who has experienced a dysphoria and dealt with it one way or another, makes them better equipped to face life and societal challenges to the extent they should be arbiters of power...?

Is that what you're saying?

Someone who has overcome such significant trauma, yes. Such resilience and anti fragility is prized among organisations.

While those who take their angst and turn it onto already persecuted groups, should not be let anywhere near power. Not only are they the opposite of anti fragile, but we know full well where such tendencies can lead

Am glad we could clear that up. Now I can safely say its utter shite.

I'm glad you've demonstrated the full scholarly depths of your insight. Because you have "

Oh hun...

You've no idea of the depths of my comprehension. Please don't intimate my position on your poorly thought out point is a barometer of it... that would be poorly founded in the extreme.

But I see a trait... should you see an opposing view, you instantly correlate it to that person not having intelligence and full stop it with an emoji to assist in degrading the conversation further.

A nice trait... and the instigator of degeneration if I may say so.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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