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""For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God"" That too. Mr | |||
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"My dad's Christian and so was my mum. They were pretty good at practicing their faith in and out of church. The members of the church my dad goes to are excellent. They feed people, help them at home, provide social activities, give people lifts and just generally care." That's my experience as well. I was part of a CU for a bit while at uni (as you do). My experience was that generally they'd go above and beyond to help the local community, other students, placed value on people regardless of where they came from. I'm not saying there's not some bad eggs, undoubtedly there are. Bad eggs is an understatement. Religion can easily be used to justify, manipulated to give power to some, abused and used to ignore any unpleasant behaviour. I think that Christians are people. And all people can adopt the holier than thou attitude. I am aware that I have a confirmation bias so it's definitely slanted my response to this! | |||
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"Because man wasn't made in the image of God. God's were made in the image of men which makes then extraordinarily useful for justifying any human behaviour you care to think of. Plus, most Christians don't actually follow the bible - only the bits they like. The rest is dismissed as not being relevant to the modern world or not actually meaning what it says. Mr" 100% this. Christianity is just a cult designed to control and manipulate people, using a book written by men but labelled as the literal word of “God”… except when it isn’t and we should just view that bit as more of an allegory… oh and that bit makes a little sense if you ignore the owning people bit…. Etc | |||
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"The main issue I have with many Christians is that some of the main teachings are both forgiveness and that it is not for them to judge, that that is up to god. Very few seem to live by those things. " Is that your judgement or perhaps a prejudice.? I find people are a mix including those of faith and those agnostic. Expecting people to behave to our interpretation of any faith i could get a bit frustrating. | |||
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"My dad's Christian and so was my mum. They were pretty good at practicing their faith in and out of church. The members of the church my dad goes to are excellent. They feed people, help them at home, provide social activities, give people lifts and just generally care. That's my experience as well. I was part of a CU for a bit while at uni (as you do). My experience was that generally they'd go above and beyond to help the local community, other students, placed value on people regardless of where they came from. I'm not saying there's not some bad eggs, undoubtedly there are. Bad eggs is an understatement. Religion can easily be used to justify, manipulated to give power to some, abused and used to ignore any unpleasant behaviour. I think that Christians are people. And all people can adopt the holier than thou attitude. I am aware that I have a confirmation bias so it's definitely slanted my response to this!" I think you don't have to practice a faith to be good and you don't have to be good to practice a faith.  | |||
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"The main issue I have with many Christians is that some of the main teachings are both forgiveness and that it is not for them to judge, that that is up to god. Very few seem to live by those things. Is that your judgement or perhaps a prejudice.? I find people are a mix including those of faith and those agnostic. Expecting people to behave to our interpretation of any faith i could get a bit frustrating. " We judge people against our own morals. Religious people don't consider their morals to be their own, rather they are God given which gives them an added certainty. I grew up in a church that prided itself on sticking to the literal word of God- yep, the earth really was created in 7 days, Noah's flood was a historical fact etc etc. They also prided themselves on having the correct "Christian" attitude but from outside it is very clear to see the areas where personal preferences where promoted as the "right" way to live with the connotation being, this isn't just what I think, this is what God wants. Having grown up in that environment it becomes very easy to spot in others. It may of course just be confirmation bias and prejudice from me but I genuinely believe that as soon as you ascribe your personal morals to God as opposed to your own beliefs you take away any reason to question them so do so a lot less. That isn't to say that many Christians don't make a huge effort to be nice people, to do good deeds, to be kind, etc, just that none of this precludes a judgmental mindset. It is impossible for it to do so. If you believe (for example) God has said sex outside marriage is wrong, you may well help run a charity supporting single mothers but whatever your actions, you still believe those people are there because they have sinned - further still you'll believe that God is in control of all things and the link between them having sinned and needing charity is therefore an act of God, that is they are in the situation they are due to their sin. I would argue its next to impossible to hold this belief and simultaneously not judge the person for their actions. As Swing pointed out above, all are sinners and many Christian's will quote this but cognitive dissonance and self justification - two biases we all have - will always ensure that we are far more aware of the subs if others than if our own. Mr | |||
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" As Swing pointed out above, all are sinners and many Christian's will quote this but cognitive dissonance and self justification - two biases we all have - will always ensure that we are far more aware of the subs if others than if our own. Mr" I think the passage can go two ways. I mostly meant it as "we're all imperfect", although I do see it to justify bad behaviour - "well, we're all sinners so *shrug* it doesn't matter if I'm an arsehole". I grew up very religious as well - I was taught to *try* to emulate Jesus, both because it's right and to be a witness to the faith. But what that means is very much down to interpretation. My church leaned heavily into social justice and away from the legalism and literal stuff (like, we used grape juice for communion. Not because we pretended that the Gospels were talking about grape juice, not because alcohol is bad, but because it's just a symbol and using alcohol excludes people with substance abuse problems). Increasingly I think "Christian" is too broad a category to be particularly meaningful to outside observers - the commonality is a private belief rather than outward behaviours. | |||
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"The main issue I have with many Christians is that some of the main teachings are both forgiveness and that it is not for them to judge, that that is up to god. Very few seem to live by those things. Is that your judgement or perhaps a prejudice.? I find people are a mix including those of faith and those agnostic. Expecting people to behave to our interpretation of any faith i could get a bit frustrating. " More a judgement from my experiences. I've had many friends disowned or regularly told they're going to hell by Christian families for being LGBT. My dad has a friend who was incredibly screwed up by his family who are Gideons. I also spent a lot of the lockdown not only stressed out by having to work rediculous hours while dealing with the stress of ever changing covid regulations, incredibly high staff sickness due to covid and PPE shortages but also being harrassed and verbally abused on my way in and out of work by people handing out religious leaflets and holding signs with bible quotes. 40 days for life became a 4 month affair, I guess because they had a lot more free time on their hands. I also recognise that they're not all like that which is why I said many and not all or even most. | |||
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" As Swing pointed out above, all are sinners and many Christian's will quote this but cognitive dissonance and self justification - two biases we all have - will always ensure that we are far more aware of the subs if others than if our own. Mr I think the passage can go two ways. I mostly meant it as "we're all imperfect", although I do see it to justify bad behaviour - "well, we're all sinners so *shrug* it doesn't matter if I'm an arsehole". I grew up very religious as well - I was taught to *try* to emulate Jesus, both because it's right and to be a witness to the faith. But what that means is very much down to interpretation. My church leaned heavily into social justice and away from the legalism and literal stuff (like, we used grape juice for communion. Not because we pretended that the Gospels were talking about grape juice, not because alcohol is bad, but because it's just a symbol and using alcohol excludes people with substance abuse problems). Increasingly I think "Christian" is too broad a category to be particularly meaningful to outside observers - the commonality is a private belief rather than outward behaviours." I like your last paragraph. Re that quote I didn't really intend to imply either connotation, just that there's a big difference between knowing/believing at an intellectual level that I am a sinner too and judging (or indeed even noticing) my own sins. I think all Christians have a significant cognitive dissonance to deal with. If God is all powerful, all knowing and loves everyone, why is there suffering? Of course, the standard answer is that he had to allow free will, this resulted in sin and that suffering is the result of sin (strictly, the c wages of sin is death). This is great at a conceptual level, a bit harder when it's a loved one with cancer or a suffering person we have met, Christians have to find ways in their minds to explain these things. Our brains are programmed to look for cause and effect - there's any number psychological studies showing how we routinely mistake correlation for causation. When you couple this inherent tendency with the conflicting beliefs that God doesn't want anyone to suffer, that he is entirely in control of everything that happens and people still suffer plus add on the belief that suffering is the result of sin I think it is pretty much inevitable that a large percentage of people will at some level or other see other people suffering as somehow deserving of what they have - particularly where they're living a life that the Christian in question believes to be in contravention of gods word. Again #notallchristians, it just seems to me to be very common and to an extent, an almost inevitable consequence of mixing how our brains work and a belief in an omnipotent, omnipresent and loving deity. That said, I entirely agree that one of the core teachings of Christianity- to treat others as you want to be treated - is a fantastic way to live your life. Mr | |||
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" As Swing pointed out above, all are sinners and many Christian's will quote this but cognitive dissonance and self justification - two biases we all have - will always ensure that we are far more aware of the subs if others than if our own. Mr I think the passage can go two ways. I mostly meant it as "we're all imperfect", although I do see it to justify bad behaviour - "well, we're all sinners so *shrug* it doesn't matter if I'm an arsehole". I grew up very religious as well - I was taught to *try* to emulate Jesus, both because it's right and to be a witness to the faith. But what that means is very much down to interpretation. My church leaned heavily into social justice and away from the legalism and literal stuff (like, we used grape juice for communion. Not because we pretended that the Gospels were talking about grape juice, not because alcohol is bad, but because it's just a symbol and using alcohol excludes people with substance abuse problems). Increasingly I think "Christian" is too broad a category to be particularly meaningful to outside observers - the commonality is a private belief rather than outward behaviours. I like your last paragraph. Re that quote I didn't really intend to imply either connotation, just that there's a big difference between knowing/believing at an intellectual level that I am a sinner too and judging (or indeed even noticing) my own sins. I think all Christians have a significant cognitive dissonance to deal with. If God is all powerful, all knowing and loves everyone, why is there suffering? Of course, the standard answer is that he had to allow free will, this resulted in sin and that suffering is the result of sin (strictly, the c wages of sin is death). This is great at a conceptual level, a bit harder when it's a loved one with cancer or a suffering person we have met, Christians have to find ways in their minds to explain these things. Our brains are programmed to look for cause and effect - there's any number psychological studies showing how we routinely mistake correlation for causation. When you couple this inherent tendency with the conflicting beliefs that God doesn't want anyone to suffer, that he is entirely in control of everything that happens and people still suffer plus add on the belief that suffering is the result of sin I think it is pretty much inevitable that a large percentage of people will at some level or other see other people suffering as somehow deserving of what they have - particularly where they're living a life that the Christian in question believes to be in contravention of gods word. Again #notallchristians, it just seems to me to be very common and to an extent, an almost inevitable consequence of mixing how our brains work and a belief in an omnipotent, omnipresent and loving deity. That said, I entirely agree that one of the core teachings of Christianity- to treat others as you want to be treated - is a fantastic way to live your life. Mr" We're in broad agreement. I wasn't reading into what your interpretation of the Bible passage might be, I just think those are the main interpretations. I think cognitive dissonance is a pretty universal trait, not all Christians and not just Christians. It was my own cognitive dissonance (and attempt to resolve it by studying the Bible in depth) that led to my departure from religion entirely. I still struggle with the best way to live a valuable and socially useful life. (My morals are certainly informed by my religious upbringing, I just no longer apologise for picking and choosing what I do and don't follow) | |||
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"I don't know what this means: "First I have manful. Sympathy from my Christian wife zero." " *man flu Mr | |||
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"I personally think it still comes down to the individual as with most things in life. There are many denominations and on top of that, each individuals interpretation of the teachings. I've been called all kinds of cherry picker when it comes to this subject, which I totally accept but also don't see a problem with that. I was always taught to question my own faith and not to follow scripture blindly, unfortunately it seems that is rarely the case and young people are indoctrinated with rigid dogma. I've met some absolutely horrid to the core "good Christians" and don't see them as "Christian" at all, on the other hand, I've met some very wonderful people who are practicing Christrians. As I said at the start of my ramblings, I think it's more to do with the individual." I think we unnecessarily elevate Christians, and denigrate non Christians, by equating Christianity with morality, charity, or kindness. Some Christians are, some aren't, ditto everyone else. | |||
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"I don't know what this means: "First I have manful. Sympathy from my Christian wife zero." *man flu Mr" Well spotted. Have a doughnut. | |||
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" We're in broad agreement. I wasn't reading into what your interpretation of the Bible passage might be, I just think those are the main interpretations. I think cognitive dissonance is a pretty universal trait, not all Christians and not just Christians. It was my own cognitive dissonance (and attempt to resolve it by studying the Bible in depth) that led to my departure from religion entirely. I still struggle with the best way to live a valuable and socially useful life. (My morals are certainly informed by my religious upbringing, I just no longer apologise for picking and choosing what I do and don't follow)" Ha, leaving a religious upbringing is great isn't it? There's nothing like swapping absolute certainty and an external source of what is right and wrong for a world of choice and internal justification to give you life of self doubt
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" As Swing pointed out above, all are sinners and many Christian's will quote this but cognitive dissonance and self justification - two biases we all have - will always ensure that we are far more aware of the subs if others than if our own. Mr I think the passage can go two ways. I mostly meant it as "we're all imperfect", although I do see it to justify bad behaviour - "well, we're all sinners so *shrug* it doesn't matter if I'm an arsehole". I grew up very religious as well - I was taught to *try* to emulate Jesus, both because it's right and to be a witness to the faith. But what that means is very much down to interpretation. My church leaned heavily into social justice and away from the legalism and literal stuff (like, we used grape juice for communion. Not because we pretended that the Gospels were talking about grape juice, not because alcohol is bad, but because it's just a symbol and using alcohol excludes people with substance abuse problems). Increasingly I think "Christian" is too broad a category to be particularly meaningful to outside observers - the commonality is a private belief rather than outward behaviours. I like your last paragraph. Re that quote I didn't really intend to imply either connotation, just that there's a big difference between knowing/believing at an intellectual level that I am a sinner too and judging (or indeed even noticing) my own sins. I think all Christians have a significant cognitive dissonance to deal with. If God is all powerful, all knowing and loves everyone, why is there suffering? Of course, the standard answer is that he had to allow free will, this resulted in sin and that suffering is the result of sin (strictly, the c wages of sin is death). This is great at a conceptual level, a bit harder when it's a loved one with cancer or a suffering person we have met, Christians have to find ways in their minds to explain these things. Our brains are programmed to look for cause and effect - there's any number psychological studies showing how we routinely mistake correlation for causation. When you couple this inherent tendency with the conflicting beliefs that God doesn't want anyone to suffer, that he is entirely in control of everything that happens and people still suffer plus add on the belief that suffering is the result of sin I think it is pretty much inevitable that a large percentage of people will at some level or other see other people suffering as somehow deserving of what they have - particularly where they're living a life that the Christian in question believes to be in contravention of gods word. Again #notallchristians, it just seems to me to be very common and to an extent, an almost inevitable consequence of mixing how our brains work and a belief in an omnipotent, omnipresent and loving deity. That said, I entirely agree that one of the core teachings of Christianity- to treat others as you want to be treated - is a fantastic way to live your life. Mr We're in broad agreement. I wasn't reading into what your interpretation of the Bible passage might be, I just think those are the main interpretations. I think cognitive dissonance is a pretty universal trait, not all Christians and not just Christians. It was my own cognitive dissonance (and attempt to resolve it by studying the Bible in depth) that led to my departure from religion entirely. I still struggle with the best way to live a valuable and socially useful life. (My morals are certainly informed by my religious upbringing, I just no longer apologise for picking and choosing what I do and don't follow)" I think you need cognitive dissonance whether you have faith or not. I think traditional churches like Church of England and Catholic probably teach against it . With any faith I don’t think you reach a point of intellectual understanding of the while universe, meaning of suffering etc but if satisfies your thirst for meaning and purpose it’s a good thing | |||
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"The main issue I have with many Christians is that some of the main teachings are both forgiveness and that it is not for them to judge, that that is up to god. Very few seem to live by those things. Is that your judgement or perhaps a prejudice.? I find people are a mix including those of faith and those agnostic. Expecting people to behave to our interpretation of any faith i could get a bit frustrating. More a judgement from my experiences. I've had many friends disowned or regularly told they're going to hell by Christian families for being LGBT. My dad has a friend who was incredibly screwed up by his family who are Gideons. I also spent a lot of the lockdown not only stressed out by having to work rediculous hours while dealing with the stress of ever changing covid regulations, incredibly high staff sickness due to covid and PPE shortages but also being harrassed and verbally abused on my way in and out of work by people handing out religious leaflets and holding signs with bible quotes. 40 days for life became a 4 month affair, I guess because they had a lot more free time on their hands. I also recognise that they're not all like that which is why I said many and not all or even most." I'm not sure how I'd know if a stranger is a Christian or any faith over another really but do you think that there are more people of faith whose values you don't agree with or is it because you have a prejudice that you think or assume that they should behave "better" when measured against your values because they have faith than those who do not? | |||
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"The Lord Helps Those Who Help Themselves "What, nick Mr ‘I believe the scriptures’ veg instead of growing your own? | |||
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"The main issue I have with many Christians is that some of the main teachings are both forgiveness and that it is not for them to judge, that that is up to god. Very few seem to live by those things. Is that your judgement or perhaps a prejudice.? I find people are a mix including those of faith and those agnostic. Expecting people to behave to our interpretation of any faith i could get a bit frustrating. More a judgement from my experiences. I've had many friends disowned or regularly told they're going to hell by Christian families for being LGBT. My dad has a friend who was incredibly screwed up by his family who are Gideons. I also spent a lot of the lockdown not only stressed out by having to work rediculous hours while dealing with the stress of ever changing covid regulations, incredibly high staff sickness due to covid and PPE shortages but also being harrassed and verbally abused on my way in and out of work by people handing out religious leaflets and holding signs with bible quotes. 40 days for life became a 4 month affair, I guess because they had a lot more free time on their hands. I also recognise that they're not all like that which is why I said many and not all or even most. I'm not sure how I'd know if a stranger is a Christian or any faith over another really but do you think that there are more people of faith whose values you don't agree with or is it because you have a prejudice that you think or assume that they should behave "better" when measured against your values because they have faith than those who do not? " I know this question isn't aimed at me but yes, I do believe you should behave better than the average person. If you claim to follow a religion that whose second most important teaching (after loving God) is treating others as you want to be treated yourself then yes, you should at least attempt to behave that way and this will automatically make you a nicer person than the majority. To answer your question about how you know if someone is a Christian, in my experience this is a bit like asking how you know if someone is vegan - they're gonna tell you sooner or later
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" We're in broad agreement. I wasn't reading into what your interpretation of the Bible passage might be, I just think those are the main interpretations. I think cognitive dissonance is a pretty universal trait, not all Christians and not just Christians. It was my own cognitive dissonance (and attempt to resolve it by studying the Bible in depth) that led to my departure from religion entirely. I still struggle with the best way to live a valuable and socially useful life. (My morals are certainly informed by my religious upbringing, I just no longer apologise for picking and choosing what I do and don't follow) Ha, leaving a religious upbringing is great isn't it? There's nothing like swapping absolute certainty and an external source of what is right and wrong for a world of choice and internal justification to give you life of self doubt
Mr"Haha! I've gone from "I'm unworthy of the sacrifice of Jesus" to "too many choices and not good enough as a person." It's awesome. I highly recommend. Sort of  | |||
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" As Swing pointed out above, all are sinners and many Christian's will quote this but cognitive dissonance and self justification - two biases we all have - will always ensure that we are far more aware of the subs if others than if our own. Mr I think the passage can go two ways. I mostly meant it as "we're all imperfect", although I do see it to justify bad behaviour - "well, we're all sinners so *shrug* it doesn't matter if I'm an arsehole". I grew up very religious as well - I was taught to *try* to emulate Jesus, both because it's right and to be a witness to the faith. But what that means is very much down to interpretation. My church leaned heavily into social justice and away from the legalism and literal stuff (like, we used grape juice for communion. Not because we pretended that the Gospels were talking about grape juice, not because alcohol is bad, but because it's just a symbol and using alcohol excludes people with substance abuse problems). Increasingly I think "Christian" is too broad a category to be particularly meaningful to outside observers - the commonality is a private belief rather than outward behaviours. I like your last paragraph. Re that quote I didn't really intend to imply either connotation, just that there's a big difference between knowing/believing at an intellectual level that I am a sinner too and judging (or indeed even noticing) my own sins. I think all Christians have a significant cognitive dissonance to deal with. If God is all powerful, all knowing and loves everyone, why is there suffering? Of course, the standard answer is that he had to allow free will, this resulted in sin and that suffering is the result of sin (strictly, the c wages of sin is death). This is great at a conceptual level, a bit harder when it's a loved one with cancer or a suffering person we have met, Christians have to find ways in their minds to explain these things. Our brains are programmed to look for cause and effect - there's any number psychological studies showing how we routinely mistake correlation for causation. When you couple this inherent tendency with the conflicting beliefs that God doesn't want anyone to suffer, that he is entirely in control of everything that happens and people still suffer plus add on the belief that suffering is the result of sin I think it is pretty much inevitable that a large percentage of people will at some level or other see other people suffering as somehow deserving of what they have - particularly where they're living a life that the Christian in question believes to be in contravention of gods word. Again #notallchristians, it just seems to me to be very common and to an extent, an almost inevitable consequence of mixing how our brains work and a belief in an omnipotent, omnipresent and loving deity. That said, I entirely agree that one of the core teachings of Christianity- to treat others as you want to be treated - is a fantastic way to live your life. Mr We're in broad agreement. I wasn't reading into what your interpretation of the Bible passage might be, I just think those are the main interpretations. I think cognitive dissonance is a pretty universal trait, not all Christians and not just Christians. It was my own cognitive dissonance (and attempt to resolve it by studying the Bible in depth) that led to my departure from religion entirely. I still struggle with the best way to live a valuable and socially useful life. (My morals are certainly informed by my religious upbringing, I just no longer apologise for picking and choosing what I do and don't follow) I think you need cognitive dissonance whether you have faith or not. I think traditional churches like Church of England and Catholic probably teach against it . With any faith I don’t think you reach a point of intellectual understanding of the while universe, meaning of suffering etc but if satisfies your thirst for meaning and purpose it’s a good thing " Sure. I had a religious upbringing that encouraged me to lean into my doubts - which probably didn't help me stay. Papering over the cracks of a belief system certainly doesn't strengthen it, whether it's religious or not. | |||
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"The main issue I have with many Christians is that some of the main teachings are both forgiveness and that it is not for them to judge, that that is up to god. Very few seem to live by those things. Is that your judgement or perhaps a prejudice.? I find people are a mix including those of faith and those agnostic. Expecting people to behave to our interpretation of any faith i could get a bit frustrating. More a judgement from my experiences. I've had many friends disowned or regularly told they're going to hell by Christian families for being LGBT. My dad has a friend who was incredibly screwed up by his family who are Gideons. I also spent a lot of the lockdown not only stressed out by having to work rediculous hours while dealing with the stress of ever changing covid regulations, incredibly high staff sickness due to covid and PPE shortages but also being harrassed and verbally abused on my way in and out of work by people handing out religious leaflets and holding signs with bible quotes. 40 days for life became a 4 month affair, I guess because they had a lot more free time on their hands. I also recognise that they're not all like that which is why I said many and not all or even most. I'm not sure how I'd know if a stranger is a Christian or any faith over another really but do you think that there are more people of faith whose values you don't agree with or is it because you have a prejudice that you think or assume that they should behave "better" when measured against your values because they have faith than those who do not? I know this question isn't aimed at me but yes, I do believe you should behave better than the average person. If you claim to follow a religion that whose second most important teaching (after loving God) is treating others as you want to be treated yourself then yes, you should at least attempt to behave that way and this will automatically make you a nicer person than the majority. To answer your question about how you know if someone is a Christian, in my experience this is a bit like asking how you know if someone is vegan - they're gonna tell you sooner or later
Mr"That's interesting, that you have higher expectations of the behaviour of people who have faith than those who do not. I don't agree with it as I think all people are human and all are capable of "good". The fact that not all people, share the same definitions and expectations of good and bad can't help when judging others behaviours and values. . But we can agree to disagree. | |||
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"The main issue I have with many Christians is that some of the main teachings are both forgiveness and that it is not for them to judge, that that is up to god. Very few seem to live by those things. Is that your judgement or perhaps a prejudice.? I find people are a mix including those of faith and those agnostic. Expecting people to behave to our interpretation of any faith i could get a bit frustrating. More a judgement from my experiences. I've had many friends disowned or regularly told they're going to hell by Christian families for being LGBT. My dad has a friend who was incredibly screwed up by his family who are Gideons. I also spent a lot of the lockdown not only stressed out by having to work rediculous hours while dealing with the stress of ever changing covid regulations, incredibly high staff sickness due to covid and PPE shortages but also being harrassed and verbally abused on my way in and out of work by people handing out religious leaflets and holding signs with bible quotes. 40 days for life became a 4 month affair, I guess because they had a lot more free time on their hands. I also recognise that they're not all like that which is why I said many and not all or even most. I'm not sure how I'd know if a stranger is a Christian or any faith over another really but do you think that there are more people of faith whose values you don't agree with or is it because you have a prejudice that you think or assume that they should behave "better" when measured against your values because they have faith than those who do not? " My first few examples aren't strangers and the last example where they are, I think I had pretty good evidence that they were by the literature they're handing out and displaying and the fact they're quoting bible verses at me and praying. Otherwise it's pretty strange behaviour for a non-Christian. My criticism wasn't about behaving better by my own values. My criticism was not behaving according to the teachings of their own religion. | |||
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"The main issue I have with many Christians is that some of the main teachings are both forgiveness and that it is not for them to judge, that that is up to god. Very few seem to live by those things. Is that your judgement or perhaps a prejudice.? I find people are a mix including those of faith and those agnostic. Expecting people to behave to our interpretation of any faith i could get a bit frustrating. More a judgement from my experiences. I've had many friends disowned or regularly told they're going to hell by Christian families for being LGBT. My dad has a friend who was incredibly screwed up by his family who are Gideons. I also spent a lot of the lockdown not only stressed out by having to work rediculous hours while dealing with the stress of ever changing covid regulations, incredibly high staff sickness due to covid and PPE shortages but also being harrassed and verbally abused on my way in and out of work by people handing out religious leaflets and holding signs with bible quotes. 40 days for life became a 4 month affair, I guess because they had a lot more free time on their hands. I also recognise that they're not all like that which is why I said many and not all or even most. I'm not sure how I'd know if a stranger is a Christian or any faith over another really but do you think that there are more people of faith whose values you don't agree with or is it because you have a prejudice that you think or assume that they should behave "better" when measured against your values because they have faith than those who do not? My first few examples aren't strangers and the last example where they are, I think I had pretty good evidence that they were by the literature they're handing out and displaying and the fact they're quoting bible verses at me and praying. Otherwise it's pretty strange behaviour for a non-Christian. My criticism wasn't about behaving better by my own values. My criticism was not behaving according to the teachings of their own religion. " Of course. I'm only asking if you think that is more prevalent amongst those who have faith than those who do not? And further, what gives those who do not have faith a free pass to behave "badly"? Should we not all aspire to be kind and supportive and charitable and have "good" values for individuals and our communities.? | |||
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"The main issue I have with many Christians is that some of the main teachings are both forgiveness and that it is not for them to judge, that that is up to god. Very few seem to live by those things. Is that your judgement or perhaps a prejudice.? I find people are a mix including those of faith and those agnostic. Expecting people to behave to our interpretation of any faith i could get a bit frustrating. More a judgement from my experiences. I've had many friends disowned or regularly told they're going to hell by Christian families for being LGBT. My dad has a friend who was incredibly screwed up by his family who are Gideons. I also spent a lot of the lockdown not only stressed out by having to work rediculous hours while dealing with the stress of ever changing covid regulations, incredibly high staff sickness due to covid and PPE shortages but also being harrassed and verbally abused on my way in and out of work by people handing out religious leaflets and holding signs with bible quotes. 40 days for life became a 4 month affair, I guess because they had a lot more free time on their hands. I also recognise that they're not all like that which is why I said many and not all or even most. I'm not sure how I'd know if a stranger is a Christian or any faith over another really but do you think that there are more people of faith whose values you don't agree with or is it because you have a prejudice that you think or assume that they should behave "better" when measured against your values because they have faith than those who do not? My first few examples aren't strangers and the last example where they are, I think I had pretty good evidence that they were by the literature they're handing out and displaying and the fact they're quoting bible verses at me and praying. Otherwise it's pretty strange behaviour for a non-Christian. My criticism wasn't about behaving better by my own values. My criticism was not behaving according to the teachings of their own religion. Of course. I'm only asking if you think that is more prevalent amongst those who have faith than those who do not? And further, what gives those who do not have faith a free pass to behave "badly"? Should we not all aspire to be kind and supportive and charitable and have "good" values for individuals and our communities.? " Do I think bad people or bad behaviour is more prevalent among Christians? No. Do I think ostracising and causing emotional damage to others for who they are or living their lives differently is more prevelant among those bad people who are religious? Yes. The Non-religious things those behaviours tend to be based in are often bigotry but I don't think making that comparison does anyone any favours. I'm not sure where I've suggested that non-Christians have a free pass to behave badly. | |||
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"The main issue I have with many Christians is that some of the main teachings are both forgiveness and that it is not for them to judge, that that is up to god. Very few seem to live by those things. Is that your judgement or perhaps a prejudice.? I find people are a mix including those of faith and those agnostic. Expecting people to behave to our interpretation of any faith i could get a bit frustrating. More a judgement from my experiences. I've had many friends disowned or regularly told they're going to hell by Christian families for being LGBT. My dad has a friend who was incredibly screwed up by his family who are Gideons. I also spent a lot of the lockdown not only stressed out by having to work rediculous hours while dealing with the stress of ever changing covid regulations, incredibly high staff sickness due to covid and PPE shortages but also being harrassed and verbally abused on my way in and out of work by people handing out religious leaflets and holding signs with bible quotes. 40 days for life became a 4 month affair, I guess because they had a lot more free time on their hands. I also recognise that they're not all like that which is why I said many and not all or even most. I'm not sure how I'd know if a stranger is a Christian or any faith over another really but do you think that there are more people of faith whose values you don't agree with or is it because you have a prejudice that you think or assume that they should behave "better" when measured against your values because they have faith than those who do not? My first few examples aren't strangers and the last example where they are, I think I had pretty good evidence that they were by the literature they're handing out and displaying and the fact they're quoting bible verses at me and praying. Otherwise it's pretty strange behaviour for a non-Christian. My criticism wasn't about behaving better by my own values. My criticism was not behaving according to the teachings of their own religion. Of course. I'm only asking if you think that is more prevalent amongst those who have faith than those who do not? And further, what gives those who do not have faith a free pass to behave "badly"? Should we not all aspire to be kind and supportive and charitable and have "good" values for individuals and our communities.? Do I think bad people or bad behaviour is more prevalent among Christians? No. Do I think ostracising and causing emotional damage to others for who they are or living their lives differently is more prevelant among those bad people who are religious? Yes. The Non-religious things those behaviours tend to be based in are often bigotry but I don't think making that comparison does anyone any favours. I'm not sure where I've suggested that non-Christians have a free pass to behave badly. " That's a fair point. Do you think for those who are more zealous with there faith of whatever favour (eg Christian, Jewish, Muslim probably the most popular) are similar in those behaviours or is it only those who are of a Christian persuasion? | |||
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"The main issue I have with many Christians is that some of the main teachings are both forgiveness and that it is not for them to judge, that that is up to god. Very few seem to live by those things. Is that your judgement or perhaps a prejudice.? I find people are a mix including those of faith and those agnostic. Expecting people to behave to our interpretation of any faith i could get a bit frustrating. More a judgement from my experiences. I've had many friends disowned or regularly told they're going to hell by Christian families for being LGBT. My dad has a friend who was incredibly screwed up by his family who are Gideons. I also spent a lot of the lockdown not only stressed out by having to work rediculous hours while dealing with the stress of ever changing covid regulations, incredibly high staff sickness due to covid and PPE shortages but also being harrassed and verbally abused on my way in and out of work by people handing out religious leaflets and holding signs with bible quotes. 40 days for life became a 4 month affair, I guess because they had a lot more free time on their hands. I also recognise that they're not all like that which is why I said many and not all or even most. I'm not sure how I'd know if a stranger is a Christian or any faith over another really but do you think that there are more people of faith whose values you don't agree with or is it because you have a prejudice that you think or assume that they should behave "better" when measured against your values because they have faith than those who do not? My first few examples aren't strangers and the last example where they are, I think I had pretty good evidence that they were by the literature they're handing out and displaying and the fact they're quoting bible verses at me and praying. Otherwise it's pretty strange behaviour for a non-Christian. My criticism wasn't about behaving better by my own values. My criticism was not behaving according to the teachings of their own religion. Of course. I'm only asking if you think that is more prevalent amongst those who have faith than those who do not? And further, what gives those who do not have faith a free pass to behave "badly"? Should we not all aspire to be kind and supportive and charitable and have "good" values for individuals and our communities.? Do I think bad people or bad behaviour is more prevalent among Christians? No. Do I think ostracising and causing emotional damage to others for who they are or living their lives differently is more prevelant among those bad people who are religious? Yes. The Non-religious things those behaviours tend to be based in are often bigotry but I don't think making that comparison does anyone any favours. I'm not sure where I've suggested that non-Christians have a free pass to behave badly. That's a fair point. Do you think for those who are more zealous with there faith of whatever favour (eg Christian, Jewish, Muslim probably the most popular) are similar in those behaviours or is it only those who are of a Christian persuasion? " I have seen it in a few religions. I commented on Christians because that's what the post is about. | |||
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"My dad's Christian and so was my mum. They were pretty good at practicing their faith in and out of church. The members of the church my dad goes to are excellent. They feed people, help them at home, provide social activities, give people lifts and just generally care." That has always been my experience too. Some christians don't practice what they preach However a large portion do. Think it's unfair to tar everyone with the same brush as after all we are all human. | |||
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"The main issue I have with many Christians is that some of the main teachings are both forgiveness and that it is not for them to judge, that that is up to god. Very few seem to live by those things. Is that your judgement or perhaps a prejudice.? I find people are a mix including those of faith and those agnostic. Expecting people to behave to our interpretation of any faith i could get a bit frustrating. More a judgement from my experiences. I've had many friends disowned or regularly told they're going to hell by Christian families for being LGBT. My dad has a friend who was incredibly screwed up by his family who are Gideons. I also spent a lot of the lockdown not only stressed out by having to work rediculous hours while dealing with the stress of ever changing covid regulations, incredibly high staff sickness due to covid and PPE shortages but also being harrassed and verbally abused on my way in and out of work by people handing out religious leaflets and holding signs with bible quotes. 40 days for life became a 4 month affair, I guess because they had a lot more free time on their hands. I also recognise that they're not all like that which is why I said many and not all or even most." I do understand what you're saying but I also have friends in the LGBTQI community Who have been disowned by family who have no faith And friends in this community who have been embraced by their Christian relatives. I will not argue however there are some who are openly homophobic and hide behind a faith. | |||
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