FabSwingers.com forum: Femininity

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

What is it? Does it exist? Should the concept exist? This musing is inspired by some thread conversations yesterday and earlier today. For example, many comments were made on a thread about short hair on women, stating that "it's not feminine" or "I prefer long hair on women because it's more feminine."

I've never, ever been described as, or seen as (I don't think) feminine, including when I was able bodied and with longer hair. I now have very short hair, I don't wear makeup, I use a wheelchair, I banter, I like football and can explain the offside rule (

), I lift weights, I have a broad back with very muscular shoulders, I've always been involved in physically demanding sports and tried to keep up with the guys. As a child, I was described as a tomboy, I was told by a dance instructor that I'd be better suited to the rugby field (thankfully) and was often told I was unladylike. So, apparently none of this is feminine, but I'm definitely a woman (a female).

I do wear dresses and skirts though!

When I'm dressed up, as I was at the Manchester social on Saturday, I still don't think I'm seen as feminine. I'm not even sure I'm seen as a sexual being to be honest (but that's a different question).

So, that's me.

What IS feminity? What does it mean in the 21st century? Why are some women not seen as feminine? The very word is defined as "having qualities traditionally considered to be suitable for a woman," so should we even be striving for feminity? Is it reinforcing gender stereotypes?

Discuss!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Oooh this is interesting! I’ve been deemed feminine from as early as I can remember.

Delicate and feminine, that’s how they’d describe me.

I think it’s something innate and it’s hard to explain why somebody is like that. I think generally it’s a trait that is more common in girls/women. And it’s because they are naturally like that, yes you could say potentially because that’s instilled from external factors. But I feel there’s something from within too. It’s almost like an energy. I feel . And when you are around it, you can feel it

Obviously everyone is capable to have both,

Maybe you could lean towards femininity or masculinity. And that’s okay.

Whatever feels more natural to you.

I think as human beings, we are very used to read what’s feminine and what’s masculine. We just do it pretty automatically

Also I’d like to say that femininity and camp-mess are completely different.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *atnip make me purrWoman
over a year ago

Reading

I would consider myself more womenly than feminine which I see as more girly. I am more of the mother earth type both in body and in nature.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *atricia ParnelWoman
over a year ago

In a town full of colours

I look at it like looking at dog breed standards.

Over history the perfect look and shape has been deemed by men and strived to be found by women.

Your class could help you find it as beauty came with money where as the poor were often ordained with Ill health and accompanying warts and lesions.

Fast forward to today and we still have that breed standard but beauty has hybrid vigour inserted and is now being realised that everyone has beautiful/feminity traits. There are still die hard pure breed chasers and that's their choice. But most people are just looking for someone to love.

Personally I don't think you are a feminine stereotype. But that's because I see you as a sexual deviant that happens to be an awesome person, mother and wife x

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *oodmessMan
over a year ago

yumsville

"I would consider myself more womenly than feminine which I see as more girly. I am more of the mother earth type both in body and in nature."

Largely when a woman laughs, smiles, carries herself proud yes there's a woman seen but it puts a shine on life. The feminine is far from anything girly pink.

(for my two p )

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

I personally don't feel either feminine or masculine. I'm just me. I'm a very motherly-type person and always have been, but still, never seen as/described as feminine or frankly any word associated with the female gender.

What actually IS femininity?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *affron40Woman
over a year ago

manchester

I’ve no clue… I’ve never felt feminine. I’m a proper girls girl but always have lots of male friends and see myself almost as asexual. It’s a weird one… I can’t quite put it into words so will be interested to read how others feel..

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *erces LetiferMan
over a year ago

Somewhere off the edge of the map... 'ere there be monsters

I think it's quite a layered and complex thing. More so today than ever before, with all the modern gender politics whizzing around our culture (for better or worse).

However, what I will say is that, there are SOME things about femininity and masculinity that are attached to the more black & white spectrum of biology / genetics - our literal sex; female and male.

Whereas there's a LOT of things in our society / culture about femininity and masculinty that is very much attatched to the times... trends, attitudes, etc; things that have no inherent connection to being either the male or female sex, but rather the gender of being a man or a woman.

For example, we don't have to go that far back in history in our own Western culture to find that the colour pink was actually associated with the masculine. And if you watch period dramas you will see that the men have long hair, wear wigs, leggings / stockings and more make-up than any woman.

We attach things like hobbies, jobs, clothes, hair / hairstyles... and even emotional and/or psychological traits to being gendered in the same sort of way that we do for the biological / sex side of things... which is where the danger lies in gendered stereotyping etc. Some are fairly benign... others are extremely toxic and harmful, of course. ALL are generalisations, to which there are always going to be exceptions.

An example; are males, in a general, broad sense physically stronger than females? Yes. Absolutely. Does that mean the I, a man, would always win / be able to beat up any woman I'd get into a fight with? Hell no! There are PLENTY of women who could kick my ass in a fight.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I personally don't feel either feminine or masculine. I'm just me. I'm a very motherly-type person and always have been, but still, never seen as/described as feminine or frankly any word associated with the female gender.

What actually IS femininity? "

That is a very hard question tho to fully answer. It’s like when people say.. what does it mean to be sexy/sensual?

You can read it or you can feel it because I feel/think it’s mostly an energy.

And same goes to some extent to femininity or masculinity.

(If you exclude the pure look - like somebody can look feminine but then not be feminine at their core at all or vice versa!!)

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *atricia ParnelWoman
over a year ago

In a town full of colours

What actually IS femininity? "

Victorian feminity standards were women who are sexually passive, subordinate to men, a devoted wife and mother, virtuous, selfless, loving, gentle, pure as an angel.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *emorefridaCouple
over a year ago

La la land

No idea, I'm just me. I think there's so much emphasis these days on what feminine and masculine is, as if we're two completely different species.

I'm comfortable wearing dresses going to watch a ballet in the theatre as much as I am in a cow shed in overalls. They're just different aspects of my personality.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I struggle with the concept of traits and characteristics being deemed feminine or masculine. Why is it necessary?

I feel like it puts unnecessary pressure on to curb our instinctual behaviour.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

"I look at it like looking at dog breed standards.

Over history the perfect look and shape has been deemed by men and strived to be found by women.

Your class could help you find it as beauty came with money where as the poor were often ordained with Ill health and accompanying warts and lesions.

Personally I don't think you are a feminine stereotype. But that's because I see you as a sexual deviant that happens to be an awesome person, mother and wife x"

I think being described in terms of having hybrid vigour and dog breeding is EXACTLY me

Frida - your comment resonates with me big time. I'm very much the same

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

"I struggle with the concept of traits and characteristics being deemed feminine or masculine. Why is it necessary?

I feel like it puts unnecessary pressure on to curb our instinctual behaviour. "

I agree, which is why I asked the question. I don't understand how someone can blanket reject all short haired women as "not feminine", for example.

I think I've always been curious about why some traits/qualities are assigned to genders though. I've always felt more "at home" in male company (non sexual!) I get on better with men, I often have more in common with men etc. But I wouldn't describe myself nor see myself as masculine.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *yrdsisWoman
over a year ago

Gleam Street

It is a concept... created by folks to keep women in line...

Im 5'10 and a hefty weight of muscle... I walk a rottweiler every day, I have shaved half of my head... hubby still thinks I'm feminine... my sister is 5'6, long, golden hair, size 10.... she's proper feminine.. who's mistaken? Hubby? Or society?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

What actually IS femininity?

Victorian feminity standards were women who are sexually passive, subordinate to men, a devoted wife and mother, virtuous, selfless, loving, gentle, pure as an angel. "

Are Victorian standards still applied to us today?! If so, why??

Two centuries on from the 19th, should we still be applying such "standards"?

PS: I'm sexually submissive (not passive) and very much a motherly person. Is it like bingo where you need a full house to be feminine?!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It is a concept... created by folks to keep women in line...

Yes I think it's a concept too. Its not something that actually exists. It's an idea of something that's been created.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *eliWoman
over a year ago

I think what one person perceives as femininity might not necessarily align with another's viewpoint. There's the cultural difference, the generational, our own biases all crafted from our "experiences", our views - to take two contrasting ideals of femininity you have the hyper sexualised "ebony goddess" ideal and the demure, subservient role of the Victorian woman. It's complicated, nuanced and really rather personal (apart from the zeitgeist of femininity from each era). I think now, more than other, things are less clearly defined.

As someone who has never, ever been described as feminine in my many years on this planet, I'm kind of for it. I don't think of myself as feminine. Or masculine, in part because I've never been described as either. I'm just a cute blob floating about.

I didn't grow up assigning certain traits to a particular gender and so don't often fall back on those stereotypes of perception.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *emorefridaCouple
over a year ago

La la land

Femininity is a weird concept to me, I get fertility goddesses that ancient people worshiped. That makes sense on a biological level at least.

What does femininity actually do? What is the point of it?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *atricia ParnelWoman
over a year ago

In a town full of colours

What actually IS femininity?

Victorian feminity standards were women who are sexually passive, subordinate to men, a devoted wife and mother, virtuous, selfless, loving, gentle, pure as an angel.

Are Victorian standards still applied to us today?! If so, why??

Two centuries on from the 19th, should we still be applying such "standards"?

PS: I'm sexually submissive (not passive) and very much a motherly person. Is it like bingo where you need a full house to be feminine?!

Ha no

I read an article covering feminine beauty standards across the ages from Egypt to now and its very interesting the scope of shapes and required look traits over the ages (yes back to the dogs again

) think of the saluki like the wanted feminine breed, in which Marylin Monroe is the human equivalent.

Feminity standards seems to just be set by popular choice of the different era's regarding looks and traits...

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

"Victorian feminity standards were women who are sexually passive, subordinate to men, a devoted wife and mother, virtuous, selfless, loving, gentle, pure as an angel. "

I'm not feminine then

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think what one person perceives as femininity might not necessarily align with another's viewpoint. There's the cultural difference, the generational, our own biases all crafted from our "experiences", our views - to take two contrasting ideals of femininity you have the hyper sexualised "ebony goddess" ideal and the demure, subservient role of the Victorian woman. It's complicated, nuanced and really rather personal (apart from the zeitgeist of femininity from each era). I think now, more than other, things are less clearly defined.

I didn't grow up assigning certain traits to a particular gender and so don't often fall back on those stereotypes of perception."

You are my cute little slutey protégé

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

" Feminity standards seems to just be set by popular choice of the different era's regarding looks and traits...

Stealing this quote! So, we know what 19th century feminity was. What's modern day femininity? And why can't you be feminine if you have short hair? (And a million other questions)

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *yrdsisWoman
over a year ago

Gleam Street

It's still a masculine thing where we aa all sorts of women are subjected to what they like/want/expect

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

IN. For learning.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *eliWoman
over a year ago

"You are my cute little slutey protégé

This gives me so much joy! I need your slutey wisdom O SuperSlute Mentor.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *acey_RedWoman
over a year ago

Liverpool

Who even knows. As someone pretty feminine in appearance, sometimes it comes with a level of expectation and I've lost tolerance for those who will tell me its unfeminine to do some things for really dumb reasons. It usually comes down to what they personally find attractive and they just perceive your femininity to be something so precious to you that the mere thought of losing any is enough for you to bow to their whims

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *heArrowsCouple
over a year ago

I think it is a concept but it's also a real thing and not just a social construct.

I have two daughters and a wife. My wife isn't super "feminine" but she's definitely all woman. My eldest daughter likes to play with gender norms. And my youngest daughter is super feminine. She loves her makeup, hair, clothes. She didn't pick it up off the others in the house. From a baby she was super "girly"

So idk. It's cultural and its also not.

But it's also not something that should be used as a less than.

My eldest isn't less of a woman because she likes wearing hawaian shirts. And my youngest isn't more because she loves experimenting with makeup and up styles.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

I didn't grow up assigning certain traits to a particular gender and so don't often fall back on those stereotypes of perception."

Meli, I'm agreeing with you entirely, in particular with the last paragraph and where you say "I don't think of myself as feminine. Or masculine." I'm the same.

I suppose I should also ask the complimentary question "what is masculinity?" That might be informative too, because I'm married to a man who doesn't see himself as masculine but he is sure as hell male. He's just not some bonkers stereotype

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Have loved reading these super insightful posts from you all. I can only add that masculinities and femininities are so constraining that I don’t think they’re helpful or relevant labels anymore. Less so for my generation and think it will be even less and less for generations to come. Finding binary ways to categorise people only serves to reproduce domination and dominant relationships between groups.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *emorefridaCouple
over a year ago

La la land

"I think it is a concept but it's also a real thing and not just a social construct.

So idk. It's cultural and its also not.

But it's also not something that should be used as a less than.

My eldest isn't less of a woman because she likes wearing hawaian shirts. And my youngest isn't more because she loves experimenting with makeup and up styles. "

Hey hello Arrows haven't seen you in ages.

It's an interesting point about your daughter's. Is it just that they express their personalities in a different way? I have two boys one is football crazy and boisterous

whilst the other is quieter, I just see it as their personalities. Do you think maybe we try to pigeon hole women in general more than men?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

"I think it is a concept but it's also a real thing and not just a social construct.

So idk. It's cultural and its also not.

But it's also not something that should be used as a less than.

My eldest isn't less of a woman because she likes wearing hawaian shirts. And my youngest isn't more because she loves experimenting with makeup and up styles.

Hey hello Arrows haven't seen you in ages.

It's an interesting point about your daughter's. Is it just that they express their personalities in a different way? I have two boys one is football crazy and boisterous

whilst the other is quieter, I just see it as their personalities. Do you think maybe we try to pigeon hole women in general more than men? "

I find The Arrows post very interesting too. We have a son who is definitely all male (identifies as such) but is definitely not stereotypically masculine. Our 5yo daughter is very typically girly, in that she likes pink, unicorns and twirly skirts but she's definitely not seen any gender stereotypes at home. In fact, we avoided particularly gendered clothing and toys until she started to express a preference. I'm frankly baffled about where she's got her girliness from and can only conclude it's inherent...

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think it is a concept but it's also a real thing and not just a social construct.

So idk. It's cultural and its also not.

But it's also not something that should be used as a less than.

My eldest isn't less of a woman because she likes wearing hawaian shirts. And my youngest isn't more because she loves experimenting with makeup and up styles. "

I agree with what you said. It’s both and some have it more than others.

And it can be innate and come from within, and I talk from personal experience and was always naturally like that. Not influenced externally

But you are right, if a woman isn’t particularly feminine, it doesn’t mean she’s any less of a woman at all.

Like same goes for masculinity and men. But there are traits that come more naturally to men that are seen/considered/perceived/felt as masculine. Or the whole masculine energy

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I’m sorry. I know I talk about race A LOT. But to me conversations about femininities in this case of masculinities should always consider the race dynamics of these concepts. The ways in which in this context, Black women (and other women of colour) have been excluded from certain ideas of femininity is hugely important. Due obviously to racist structures but also to racism and the social position it put them in. - Angela Davis talks about the differences in views of Black and White women in the context of reliant housewife for example. But also consider the way that Black women are presented as strong and that strength that they’re often forced to possess for themselves and their community sees them neglected in medicine- the idea that Black women feel less pain for example. Also consider the hyper sexualisation of Black men and women which has seen historic racist tropes about Black women which alters how ideas of femininity will be reproduced. I think class and racially minoritised groups more likely to belong to different social classes is a huge factor too as well as the fact that femininity naturally differs culturally and also regionally. - A black working class woman from London might perform femininity or understand the idea differently to a white working class woman from Leeds.

This is not meant to mansplain. More that I hadn’t seen it come up and perhaps for some men out there it will be useful to consider on our journey.

Was fortunate to have read some Black feminism during my degree and it truly was life changing.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *emorefridaCouple
over a year ago

La la land

"I think it is a concept but it's also a real thing and not just a social construct.

So idk. It's cultural and its also not.

But it's also not something that should be used as a less than.

My eldest isn't less of a woman because she likes wearing hawaian shirts. And my youngest isn't more because she loves experimenting with makeup and up styles.

Hey hello Arrows haven't seen you in ages.

It's an interesting point about your daughter's. Is it just that they express their personalities in a different way? I have two boys one is football crazy and boisterous

whilst the other is quieter, I just see it as their personalities. Do you think maybe we try to pigeon hole women in general more than men?

My "girliness" is not from my home environment, my Dad wanted a boy grew up on a farm, so I was very much treated as one. But I enjoyed dancing and dressing up, which are thought to be "feminine". But my eldest son had the biggest dressing up box I have ever seen he loved it. My youngest loved pink, so he had pink wellies and fleeces whatever he wanted I didn't care. But he started nursery and peer pressure stopped him liking pink. He still secretly does, he just buys me pink things and flipping hate pink lol.

So I don't know if it's all inherent and not kids seeing girl cartoon characters e.g sky in paw patrol, we know she's a girl because she's dressed in pink.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Thank you OP for the post. I’m back to reading

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *atricia ParnelWoman
over a year ago

In a town full of colours

"Have loved reading these super insightful posts from you all. I can only add that masculinities and femininities are so constraining that I don’t think they’re helpful or relevant labels anymore. Less so for my generation and think it will be even less and less for generations to come. Finding binary ways to categorise people only serves to reproduce domination and dominant relationships between groups.

I found a wonderful quote...

Femininity has been recast and reimagined over the ages through a male heterosexual lens.

Same can be said vice versa for masculinity and a heterosexual female lens

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *tephTV67TV/TS
over a year ago

Cheshire

I’ve always believed that femininity is about the qualities a woman has, empathy, kindness, sensitivity, supportiveness and understanding.

More emotional than physical looks or what’s regarded as girly.

Makeup, long hair or even being beautiful looking isn’t the height of femininity, but emotional intelligence, must be closer to it.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

"Thank you OP for the post. I’m back to reading

Tis fine and thank you for your contribution above, which is very interesting and thought provoking. Although I can't comment as a white woman, I can comment as a woman who has had to be tough, strong and determined throughout my life and have often wondered if my inner grit impacts how I'm perceived. Who knows?

Happy reading

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

"I’ve always believed that femininity is about the qualities a woman has, empathy, kindness, sensitivity, supportiveness and understanding.

More emotional than physical looks or what’s regarded as girly.

Makeup, long hair or even being beautiful looking isn’t the height of femininity, but emotional intelligence, must be closer to it.

But I'm all these things (empathetic, kind, sensitive, supportive and understanding). So why am I not feminine?! Is it because I have short hair?!

(Questions are rhetorical and don't need to be answered!)

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I found a wonderful quote...

Femininity has been recast and reimagined over the ages through a male heterosexual lens.

Same can be said vice versa for masculinity and a heterosexual female lens

I like that. I think also masculinity is impacted hugely by the way that men perceive one another- it’s like a homoerotic thing almost. The way men seek the respect and approval of other men but also fear that disapproval. I would argue they care more for this than they do for approval of women. Even thinking of the way women become mere sexual conquests to parade around for the approval of other men as a way of performing one’s masculinity.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I’ve always believed that femininity is about the qualities a woman has, empathy, kindness, sensitivity, supportiveness and understanding.

More emotional than physical looks or what’s regarded as girly.

Makeup, long hair or even being beautiful looking isn’t the height of femininity, but emotional intelligence, must be closer to it.

Agree , somebody can look a certain way (with make up and lush hair etc etc) but then her aura might be total opposite and she may be perceived/come across as not really feminine.

And that’s okay. I don’t think it can be fabricated , and it comes natural to people

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

"I think it is a concept but it's also a real thing and not just a social construct.

So idk. It's cultural and its also not.

But it's also not something that should be used as a less than.

My eldest isn't less of a woman because she likes wearing hawaian shirts. And my youngest isn't more because she loves experimenting with makeup and up styles. "

Great response

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *erces LetiferMan
over a year ago

Somewhere off the edge of the map... 'ere there be monsters

"I’ve always believed that femininity is about the qualities a woman has, empathy, kindness, sensitivity, supportiveness and understanding.

More emotional than physical looks or what’s regarded as girly.

Makeup, long hair or even being beautiful looking isn’t the height of femininity, but emotional intelligence, must be closer to it.

But I'm all these things (empathetic, kind, sensitive, supportive and understanding). So why am I not feminine?! Is it because I have short hair?!

(Questions are rhetorical and don't need to be answered!)"

I'm also all of these things (by my own estimation). Yet I think of myslef as quite masculine, and not very feminine (again, by my own estimation - and the current cultural norms, of course).

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *atricia ParnelWoman
over a year ago

In a town full of colours

I found a wonderful quote...

Femininity has been recast and reimagined over the ages through a male heterosexual lens.

Same can be said vice versa for masculinity and a heterosexual female lens

I agree. Brotherhood values are very strong across lots of different types of all male groups.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *heArrowsCouple
over a year ago

"I think it is a concept but it's also a real thing and not just a social construct.

So idk. It's cultural and its also not.

But it's also not something that should be used as a less than.

My eldest isn't less of a woman because she likes wearing hawaian shirts. And my youngest isn't more because she loves experimenting with makeup and up styles.

Hey hello Arrows haven't seen you in ages.

It's an interesting point about your daughter's. Is it just that they express their personalities in a different way? I have two boys one is football crazy and boisterous

whilst the other is quieter, I just see it as their personalities. Do you think maybe we try to pigeon hole women in general more than men? "
Hello frieda. Insert love eyes emoji and kiss face emoji here please

I have not been about. Swinging is probably in our past now and it was too painful to see all the people we (I) would have loved to meet.

Our son is super emotional. We took him to a therapist and he's a highly sensitive person. Not boisterous. Doesn't do banter. He's 11. He will grow into whatever he will be. But he's definitely pigeon holed because he doesn't like football. Or gaelic football. He doesn't wrestle or rough house.

I don't know the sexual orientation of our eldest. She might be a lesbian. Or not. It obviously doesn't matter. But she's always plotted her own course. She's 20 now and wears what she wants and no one will tell her otherwise.

And my youngest daughter tells me she's queer. She's 14. Super feminine and girly and she won't have anyone tell her what to wear either.

I think society pigeon holes both genders. And if you don't fall into either of them ... Well there will be massive judgement of you and confusion all round.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *eliWoman
over a year ago

"I’ve always believed that femininity is about the qualities a woman has, empathy, kindness, sensitivity, supportiveness and understanding.

More emotional than physical looks or what’s regarded as girly.

Makeup, long hair or even being beautiful looking isn’t the height of femininity, but emotional intelligence, must be closer to it.

Agree , somebody can look a certain way (with make up and lush hair etc etc) but then her aura might be total opposite and she may be perceived/come across as not really feminine.

And that’s okay. I don’t think it can be fabricated , and it comes natural to people

So do you think people give off a predominantly masculine or feminine aura then? I'm curious as to how you view it. Or is it more fluid and complicated than that?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *heArrowsCouple
over a year ago

"I’ve always believed that femininity is about the qualities a woman has, empathy, kindness, sensitivity, supportiveness and understanding.

More emotional than physical looks or what’s regarded as girly.

Makeup, long hair or even being beautiful looking isn’t the height of femininity, but emotional intelligence, must be closer to it.

But I'm all these things (empathetic, kind, sensitive, supportive and understanding). So why am I not feminine?! Is it because I have short hair?!

(Questions are rhetorical and don't need to be answered!)"
I cannot say I know you well Mrs KC. But you give off a feminine vibe. Perhaps it's an internal bais of mine because I know a little bit about you and in my head you are slotted into that spot with that vibe attached.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *heArrowsCouple
over a year ago

This thread has all my fab crushes on it

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *izzy.miss.lizzyCouple
over a year ago

Pembrokeshire

Great topic for a thread OP

It is a difficult thing to define I guess and I have struggled with my thoughts on this all my life...

as a child I was a real "tomboy" as they used to say, I wore dungarees more than dresses, I climbed up trees, I made dens down the park, I kicked footballs and shot basketball hoops, I played soldiers or cowboys and so on with my male cousin...

when my friends had dolls and prams I wasn't very interested...

I wanted to do wood work and metal work at school, but I had to do needlework and cooking...

somebody called me "butch" once, and I didn't get it till I was older.

When I got married to my first Husband I did not make an elegant Bride.

I remember the long "curtain factory explosion" dress and head veil I was expected to wear getting replaced pretty quick after the wedding because it felt uncomfortable, and I thought I looked stupid.

Then one day I had to have my lady bits taken away in surgery because I got unwell, and I felt I had lost part of who and what I was, and set about trying hard to be more of a lady.

Guess that is where my underwear obsession began.

It's a feeling about yourself I think, and maybe an image thing... maybe it's about how others see me too.

I am old enough now not to care what others think, but I will continue to try to be less butch as I age because I don't feel butch now.

Apologies if the terms I use offend anyone, it isn't intended to, I only say it about myself.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ife NinjaMan
over a year ago

Dunfermline

"I’ve always believed that femininity is about the qualities a woman has, empathy, kindness, sensitivity, supportiveness and understanding.

More emotional than physical looks or what’s regarded as girly.

Makeup, long hair or even being beautiful looking isn’t the height of femininity, but emotional intelligence, must be closer to it.

But I'm all these things (empathetic, kind, sensitive, supportive and understanding). So why am I not feminine?! Is it because I have short hair?!

(Questions are rhetorical and don't need to be answered!)"

You look alright to me Mrs KC. Very womanly

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

"I think society pigeon holes both genders. And if you don't fall into either of them ... Well there will be massive judgement of you and confusion all round."

I think that, since gender etc. has become more of a mainstream topic, there are people who find that to 'label' themselves might prevent misunderstanding and judgment from other people?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

"I’ve always believed that femininity is about the qualities a woman has, empathy, kindness, sensitivity, supportiveness and understanding.

More emotional than physical looks or what’s regarded as girly.

Makeup, long hair or even being beautiful looking isn’t the height of femininity, but emotional intelligence, must be closer to it.

But I'm all these things (empathetic, kind, sensitive, supportive and understanding). So why am I not feminine?! Is it because I have short hair?!

(Questions are rhetorical and don't need to be answered!)I cannot say I know you well Mrs KC. But you give off a feminine vibe. Perhaps it's an internal bais of mine because I know a little bit about you and in my head you are slotted into that spot with that vibe attached. "

I can say with confidence that I have never been described by anyone who knows me as feminine and have specifically been told I'm not

I don't deny that I look female (because I am female) but it would seem that being female is not the same as feminine....

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I found a wonderful quote...

Femininity has been recast and reimagined over the ages through a male heterosexual lens.

Same can be said vice versa for masculinity and a heterosexual female lens

I agree. Brotherhood values are very strong across lots of different types of all male groups. "

My conclusion, though unpopular on here, is that men are terrible

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ife NinjaMan
over a year ago

Dunfermline

"I’ve always believed that femininity is about the qualities a woman has, empathy, kindness, sensitivity, supportiveness and understanding.

More emotional than physical looks or what’s regarded as girly.

Makeup, long hair or even being beautiful looking isn’t the height of femininity, but emotional intelligence, must be closer to it.

But I'm all these things (empathetic, kind, sensitive, supportive and understanding). So why am I not feminine?! Is it because I have short hair?!

I can say with confidence that I have never been described by anyone who knows me as feminine and have specifically been told I'm not

I don't deny that I look female (because I am female) but it would seem that being female is not the same as feminine...."

At my work, we have female engineers. They wear big overalls. Does it make them less womanly, less feminine? Not on your nelly

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *emorefridaCouple
over a year ago

La la land

Hey the Arrows I for one am glad to see you back, love your viewpoints on life.

"I think society pigeon holes both genders. And if you don't fall into either of them ... Well there will be massive judgement of you and confusion all round."

So agree with you on this. And for something that's not needed for our daily lives. Let people be people and express themselves as they see fit

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *eliWoman
over a year ago

"I’ve always believed that femininity is about the qualities a woman has, empathy, kindness, sensitivity, supportiveness and understanding.

More emotional than physical looks or what’s regarded as girly.

Makeup, long hair or even being beautiful looking isn’t the height of femininity, but emotional intelligence, must be closer to it.

But I'm all these things (empathetic, kind, sensitive, supportive and understanding). So why am I not feminine?! Is it because I have short hair?!

I can say with confidence that I have never been described by anyone who knows me as feminine and have specifically been told I'm not

I don't deny that I look female (because I am female) but it would seem that being female is not the same as feminine...."

I have to admit, I'm now beginning to think and question why I've never been described as feminine.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Is femininity something that others project onto us rather than something we feel? The only time I can think that I have felt feminine is when I am with a man. When there is a strong contrast between our bodies for example.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *atricia ParnelWoman
over a year ago

In a town full of colours

"I’ve always believed that femininity is about the qualities a woman has, empathy, kindness, sensitivity, supportiveness and understanding.

More emotional than physical looks or what’s regarded as girly.

Makeup, long hair or even being beautiful looking isn’t the height of femininity, but emotional intelligence, must be closer to it.

But I'm all these things (empathetic, kind, sensitive, supportive and understanding). So why am I not feminine?! Is it because I have short hair?!

(Questions are rhetorical and don't need to be answered!)"

Some gender stereotypes say you are not feminine. Some gender stereotypes say you are. Personally I'll stick to the Goddess Venus as my femininity stereotype.

I am curious to know what some more of the forumite men have as their femininity stereotypes though

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

Feminine means lots of things to lots of people. I don’t think you should compare you judge yourself to others standard of what they call feminine

For me it’s a mixture of beauty and curves, along with a submissive/mothering type of personality

Think Disney princess

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

"I’ve always believed that femininity is about the qualities a woman has, empathy, kindness, sensitivity, supportiveness and understanding.

More emotional than physical looks or what’s regarded as girly.

Makeup, long hair or even being beautiful looking isn’t the height of femininity, but emotional intelligence, must be closer to it.

But I'm all these things (empathetic, kind, sensitive, supportive and understanding). So why am I not feminine?! Is it because I have short hair?!

(Questions are rhetorical and don't need to be answered!)

Some gender stereotypes say you are not feminine. Some gender stereotypes say you are. Personally I'll stick to the Goddess Venus as my femininity stereotype.

I am curious to know what some more of the forumite men have as their femininity stereotypes though

Compersion, I shall join you being curious to know!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think society pigeon holes both genders. And if you don't fall into either of them ... Well there will be massive judgement of you and confusion all round"

I think that more people understanding and identifying as non binary means or shows that there’s less pressure to fall into one or the other. Also think that amongst young people now there’s far less pressure to perform masculinity or femininity according to old fashioned rigid ideas - thinking Lil Nas X and Harry Styles for men for example.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

People are who they are who they are i can like them or not like them i dont want to complicate it any more than that

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *yrdsisWoman
over a year ago

Gleam Street

"Feminine means lots of things to lots of people. I don’t think you should compare you judge yourself to others standard of what they call feminine

For me it’s a mixture of beauty and curves, along with a submissive/mothering type of personality

Think Disney princess "

Bummer....I've aye been a Disney villain....

Feelin Ursula here....

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *heArrowsCouple
over a year ago

"I’ve always believed that femininity is about the qualities a woman has, empathy, kindness, sensitivity, supportiveness and understanding.

More emotional than physical looks or what’s regarded as girly.

Makeup, long hair or even being beautiful looking isn’t the height of femininity, but emotional intelligence, must be closer to it.

But I'm all these things (empathetic, kind, sensitive, supportive and understanding). So why am I not feminine?! Is it because I have short hair?!

I can say with confidence that I have never been described by anyone who knows me as feminine and have specifically been told I'm not

I don't deny that I look female (because I am female) but it would seem that being female is not the same as feminine...."

I'm not a "manly" man per se. I don't weld shit. Or break things for a living

I'm not competitive in sports or a gym rat.

But I am a man. I'm respectful but I don't bend. I know who I am and what I am. And I'm told I give off manly vibes.

So perhaps from my perspective you give off feminine vibes because Its compared to me.

Femininity is subjective too perhaps

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Some of these responses make me want to ask: can men not be ‘feminine’? Or are men simply just not ‘feminine’?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Some of these responses make me want to ask: can men not be ‘feminine’? Or are men simply just not ‘feminine’? "
this men is all encompassing but would be very keen to hear perspectives on whether or not cis het men can be (in your opinions)?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *heArrowsCouple
over a year ago

"Some of these responses make me want to ask: can men not be ‘feminine’? Or are men simply just not ‘feminine’? "

I know a few very feminine men. Some are gay, some are not.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *emorefridaCouple
over a year ago

La la land

"Some of these responses make me want to ask: can men not be ‘feminine’? Or are men simply just not ‘feminine’? "

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *tephTV67TV/TS
over a year ago

Cheshire

"Some of these responses make me want to ask: can men not be ‘feminine’? Or are men simply just not ‘feminine’? "

Hello

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Some of these responses make me want to ask: can men not be ‘feminine’? Or are men simply just not ‘feminine’?

couldnt resist

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Some of these responses make me want to ask: can men not be ‘feminine’? Or are men simply just not ‘feminine’?

But if you look at the majority of the responses most of us don't have a fricking clue what femininity is. And we definitely cannot define it. Does femininity actually exist? Or is it a figment of one's imagination? "
to me it definitely doesn’t exist. But to me gender is not binary and is not really real either. But I only asked because I felt like some responses are questioning whether the feeling was innate? May have misread some? And the conversation perhaps naturally has gone along to focus on femininity as almost an exclusively women’s quality. I didn’t mean to discount other perspectives

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I’ve always believed that femininity is about the qualities a woman has, empathy, kindness, sensitivity, supportiveness and understanding.

More emotional than physical looks or what’s regarded as girly.

Makeup, long hair or even being beautiful looking isn’t the height of femininity, but emotional intelligence, must be closer to it.

Agree , somebody can look a certain way (with make up and lush hair etc etc) but then her aura might be total opposite and she may be perceived/come across as not really feminine.

And that’s okay. I don’t think it can be fabricated , and it comes natural to people

So do you think people give off a predominantly masculine or feminine aura then? I'm curious as to how you view it. Or is it more fluid and complicated than that?

I think so, but as being complicated beings, we all have nuances that can have certain degrees of masculinity and femininity. Obviously!

But I do believe that there are people who have auras that are more feminine . Some more masculine. Some may fall in between.

You just pick up on it

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *emorefridaCouple
over a year ago

La la land

"Some of these responses make me want to ask: can men not be ‘feminine’? Or are men simply just not ‘feminine’?

couldnt resist "

Haha, then I'm most definitely not feminine. I have a dishwasher

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Some of these responses make me want to ask: can men not be ‘feminine’? Or are men simply just not ‘feminine’?

I know a few very feminine men. Some are gay, some are not."

I think there are lots. How ‘feminine’ men are or are comfortable being is dependent on lots of things though

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Some of these responses make me want to ask: can men not be ‘feminine’? Or are men simply just not ‘feminine’?

Hello

You get it

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Some of these responses make me want to ask: can men not be ‘feminine’? Or are men simply just not ‘feminine’?

couldnt resist

Haha, then I'm most definitely not feminine. I have a dishwasher

"
you put undies in the dishwasher

you know thats wrong right

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *emorefridaCouple
over a year ago

La la land

"Some of these responses make me want to ask: can men not be ‘feminine’? Or are men simply just not ‘feminine’?

But if you look at the majority of the responses most of us don't have a fricking clue what femininity is. And we definitely cannot define it. Does femininity actually exist? Or is it a figment of one's imagination? to me it definitely doesn’t exist. But to me gender is not binary and is not really real either. But I only asked because I felt like some responses are questioning whether the feeling was innate? May have misread some? And the conversation perhaps naturally has gone along to focus on femininity as almost an exclusively women’s quality. I didn’t mean to discount other perspectives"

Oh I didn't think you have discounted anyone.

With regards to innate feelings, I think it's so difficult to distinguish what is innate, home environment which includes the media the child is exposed to and the external peer pressure. I have a feeling if the world decided that brown was the most girly colour in the world it would overtake pink as being the colour of choice

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *emorefridaCouple
over a year ago

La la land

"Some of these responses make me want to ask: can men not be ‘feminine’? Or are men simply just not ‘feminine’?

couldnt resist

Haha, then I'm most definitely not feminine. I have a dishwasher

you put undies in the dishwasher

you know thats wrong right

How else do you think I get out of washing pants?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Some of these responses make me want to ask: can men not be ‘feminine’? Or are men simply just not ‘feminine’?

couldnt resist

Haha, then I'm most definitely not feminine. I have a dishwasher

you put undies in the dishwasher

you know thats wrong right

How else do you think I get out of washing pants?

"
genius

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

"Some of these responses make me want to ask: can men not be ‘feminine’? Or are men simply just not ‘feminine’?

So far, feminity is either what a Victorian man wanted to see in a woman, or something about Disney princesses. I'm baffled, quite frankly.

And despite the plethora of comments about short hair = definitely not feminine, no-one has explained why this is (allegedly) a universal truth

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Some of these responses make me want to ask: can men not be ‘feminine’? Or are men simply just not ‘feminine’?

But if you look at the majority of the responses most of us don't have a fricking clue what femininity is. And we definitely cannot define it. Does femininity actually exist? Or is it a figment of one's imagination? to me it definitely doesn’t exist. But to me gender is not binary and is not really real either. But I only asked because I felt like some responses are questioning whether the feeling was innate? May have misread some? And the conversation perhaps naturally has gone along to focus on femininity as almost an exclusively women’s quality. I didn’t mean to discount other perspectives

Oh I didn't think you have discounted anyone.

I completely agree. Precisely why these things are not real to me. But they’ve been reproduced long enough to feel real? And to feel innate. Challenging ideas of ‘femininity’ or questioning its existence at all is so difficult when the ideas are reproduced by things like you said. - media, parents, school etc. So even if I brought my daughter up challenging those ideas, she’s put in those boxes by society anyway. And constrained by them.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

"Some of these responses make me want to ask: can men not be ‘feminine’? Or are men simply just not ‘feminine’?

But if you look at the majority of the responses most of us don't have a fricking clue what femininity is. And we definitely cannot define it. Does femininity actually exist? Or is it a figment of one's imagination? to me it definitely doesn’t exist. But to me gender is not binary and is not really real either. But I only asked because I felt like some responses are questioning whether the feeling was innate? May have misread some? And the conversation perhaps naturally has gone along to focus on femininity as almost an exclusively women’s quality. I didn’t mean to discount other perspectives

Oh I didn't think you have discounted anyone.

^^^This bit at the end is what worries us both. We don't want our daughter to feel she has to be, look or behave a certain way, due to her gender. Rightly or wrongly, it felt much easier for her brother to achieve adulthood with less overt pressure to be gender stereotypical.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *emorefridaCouple
over a year ago

La la land

"Some of these responses make me want to ask: can men not be ‘feminine’? Or are men simply just not ‘feminine’?

But if you look at the majority of the responses most of us don't have a fricking clue what femininity is. And we definitely cannot define it. Does femininity actually exist? Or is it a figment of one's imagination? to me it definitely doesn’t exist. But to me gender is not binary and is not really real either. But I only asked because I felt like some responses are questioning whether the feeling was innate? May have misread some? And the conversation perhaps naturally has gone along to focus on femininity as almost an exclusively women’s quality. I didn’t mean to discount other perspectives

Oh I didn't think you have discounted anyone.

I'm not sure it's just a girl thing though. I was stood at the side of a footy pitch unbeknownst to some of the Dad's. I genuinely heard one Dad yell at his son to "man up" and that if his football didn't improve he'll be taking him to ballet classes. The team is under 9s footy which has two girls playing for them. He shut up once i made sure I was in his eye line and I gave the biggest death stare I could muster. Got be honest I'm still bouncing about it nearly a week later.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *atricia ParnelWoman
over a year ago

In a town full of colours

"Some of these responses make me want to ask: can men not be ‘feminine’? Or are men simply just not ‘feminine’?

But if you look at the majority of the responses most of us don't have a fricking clue what femininity is. And we definitely cannot define it. Does femininity actually exist? Or is it a figment of one's imagination? to me it definitely doesn’t exist. But to me gender is not binary and is not really real either. But I only asked because I felt like some responses are questioning whether the feeling was innate? May have misread some? And the conversation perhaps naturally has gone along to focus on femininity as almost an exclusively women’s quality. I didn’t mean to discount other perspectives

Oh I didn't think you have discounted anyone.

I have an interesting fact on this, pink was actually the preferred choice for boys as men wore red. Blue was actually considered more of a feminine colour. Pink was only gender assigned to females in the 1940's

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Some of these responses make me want to ask: can men not be ‘feminine’? Or are men simply just not ‘feminine’?

So far, feminity is either what a Victorian man wanted to see in a woman, or something about Disney princesses. I'm baffled, quite frankly.

And despite the plethora of comments about short hair = definitely not feminine, no-one has explained why this is (allegedly) a universal truth

The short hair thing I cannot explain but I do think it has to do with maybe how men and women’s hair grows? And ideas about femininity and also masculinity I guess. Also think if we consider men to be the dominant group (can be narrowed down but don’t want a melt down in replies) then we should consider that in these contexts they produce and reproduce the ideas on these things? I don’t even know I’m throwing it out there but would need to read some things. I’m thinking Butler and gender performitivity but Butler was so hard for me and still is tbh.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I hate bringing race you again but think it’s relevant to conversations about hair and femininity. In many obvious ways. Also in relation to beauty standards etc.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *emorefridaCouple
over a year ago

La la land

"Some of these responses make me want to ask: can men not be ‘feminine’? Or are men simply just not ‘feminine’?

But if you look at the majority of the responses most of us don't have a fricking clue what femininity is. And we definitely cannot define it. Does femininity actually exist? Or is it a figment of one's imagination? to me it definitely doesn’t exist. But to me gender is not binary and is not really real either. But I only asked because I felt like some responses are questioning whether the feeling was innate? May have misread some? And the conversation perhaps naturally has gone along to focus on femininity as almost an exclusively women’s quality. I didn’t mean to discount other perspectives

Oh I didn't think you have discounted anyone.

Sure I watched a program on the V&A museum that pink was also expensive as the dye is from beetles or some insect. So it was a sign of wealth.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

" I'm not sure it's just a girl thing though. I was stood at the side of a footy pitch unbeknownst to some of the Dad's. I genuinely heard one Dad yell at his son to "man up" and that if his football didn't improve he'll be taking him to ballet classes. The team is under 9s footy which has two girls playing for them. He shut up once i made sure I was in his eye line and I gave the biggest death stare I could muster. Got be honest I'm still bouncing about it nearly a week later. "

Jeez. I absolutely abhor these sorts of things. We have proper grown up conversations with our son about all sorts and he's said that apart from hating the fact that he was "supposed" to like football (and does not), he hasn't felt any particular pressure in terms of gender stereotypes. He's 19 now. It's blindly obvious that our daughter IS subject to stereotypes all around the place and we've had to talk to her about things like "nurses can be any gender" already...

It also irritates us massively that our daughter's clothing choices are the first things many people compliment. Noooooooo! She's fecking clever, tell her that

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *atricia ParnelWoman
over a year ago

In a town full of colours

"Some of these responses make me want to ask: can men not be ‘feminine’? Or are men simply just not ‘feminine’?

But if you look at the majority of the responses most of us don't have a fricking clue what femininity is. And we definitely cannot define it. Does femininity actually exist? Or is it a figment of one's imagination? to me it definitely doesn’t exist. But to me gender is not binary and is not really real either. But I only asked because I felt like some responses are questioning whether the feeling was innate? May have misread some? And the conversation perhaps naturally has gone along to focus on femininity as almost an exclusively women’s quality. I didn’t mean to discount other perspectives

Oh I didn't think you have discounted anyone.

This is infuriating. Our local school teaches gender equality and they don't have seperate male and female teams. They just have teams of football players, to have parents undo all that understanding is

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

"I hate bringing race you again but think it’s relevant to conversations about hair and femininity. In many obvious ways. Also in relation to beauty standards etc. "

I'm absolutely certain that Western ideals of "feminity" centre around white women, there's little doubt of that.

What's curious to me is that most elderly women I know have short hair, yet come from an era that would have prized "feminity" even more perhaps than now? How does that work?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *atricia ParnelWoman
over a year ago

In a town full of colours

"Some of these responses make me want to ask: can men not be ‘feminine’? Or are men simply just not ‘feminine’?

But if you look at the majority of the responses most of us don't have a fricking clue what femininity is. And we definitely cannot define it. Does femininity actually exist? Or is it a figment of one's imagination? to me it definitely doesn’t exist. But to me gender is not binary and is not really real either. But I only asked because I felt like some responses are questioning whether the feeling was innate? May have misread some? And the conversation perhaps naturally has gone along to focus on femininity as almost an exclusively women’s quality. I didn’t mean to discount other perspectives

Oh I didn't think you have discounted anyone.

Sure I watched a program on the V&A museum that pink was also expensive as the dye is from beetles or some insect. So it was a sign of wealth.

Thats really interesting, I'll see if I can find it thank you x

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *emorefridaCouple
over a year ago

La la land

It also irritates us massively that our daughter's clothing choices are the first things many people compliment. Noooooooo! She's fecking clever, tell her that

We have those conversations at our table. My youngest not wearing pink because of peer pressure in school made me sad. It's a bloody colour for goodness sake.

But I think some push these things on kids on such a young age. How many choose to put hair bobbles etc to emphasise the gender of their baby? Why do they feel it necessary?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It also irritates us massively that our daughter's clothing choices are the first things many people compliment. Noooooooo! She's fecking clever, tell her that

We have those conversations at our table. My youngest not wearing pink because of peer pressure in school made me sad. It's a bloody colour for goodness sake.

But I think some push these things on kids on such a young age. How many choose to put hair bobbles etc to emphasise the gender of their baby? Why do they feel it necessary? "

Disgusting. As you said, it’s just a freaking colour!! And literally means nothing.

I love guys who know how to own the colour pink! X

like yes, put that pink shirt on and own IT!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *emorefridaCouple
over a year ago

La la land

"I hate bringing race you again but think it’s relevant to conversations about hair and femininity. In many obvious ways. Also in relation to beauty standards etc.

I'm absolutely certain that Western ideals of "feminity" centre around white women, there's little doubt of that.

What's curious to me is that most elderly women I know have short hair, yet come from an era that would have prized "feminity" even more perhaps than now? How does that work?

Didn't Marilyn Monroe and co all have short hair so that was the height of femininity when they were younger?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Some of these responses make me want to ask: can men not be ‘feminine’? Or are men simply just not ‘feminine’?

But if you look at the majority of the responses most of us don't have a fricking clue what femininity is. And we definitely cannot define it. Does femininity actually exist? Or is it a figment of one's imagination? to me it definitely doesn’t exist. But to me gender is not binary and is not really real either. But I only asked because I felt like some responses are questioning whether the feeling was innate? May have misread some? And the conversation perhaps naturally has gone along to focus on femininity as almost an exclusively women’s quality. I didn’t mean to discount other perspectives

Oh I didn't think you have discounted anyone.

People regularly call my daughter a boy before they see her face because we often dress her in tracksuits and ‘boys’ clothes passed down from cousins etc. I dress her in what’s comfortable for her to run around in. Get messy in. Learn in.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

"I hate bringing race you again but think it’s relevant to conversations about hair and femininity. In many obvious ways. Also in relation to beauty standards etc.

I'm absolutely certain that Western ideals of "feminity" centre around white women, there's little doubt of that.

What's curious to me is that most elderly women I know have short hair, yet come from an era that would have prized "feminity" even more perhaps than now? How does that work?

Didn't Marilyn Monroe and co all have short hair so that was the height of femininity when they were younger? "

Yup. Twiggy and co in the 1960s too....

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *heArrowsCouple
over a year ago

"Some of these responses make me want to ask: can men not be ‘feminine’? Or are men simply just not ‘feminine’?

So far, feminity is either what a Victorian man wanted to see in a woman, or something about Disney princesses. I'm baffled, quite frankly.

And despite the plethora of comments about short hair = definitely not feminine, no-one has explained why this is (allegedly) a universal truth

Zoe kravit? Any number of 1960s super models (the most famous of which has elluded me)

Audrey Hepburn? All super feminine. All short hair.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *emorefridaCouple
over a year ago

La la land

"I hate bringing race you again but think it’s relevant to conversations about hair and femininity. In many obvious ways. Also in relation to beauty standards etc.

I'm absolutely certain that Western ideals of "feminity" centre around white women, there's little doubt of that.

What's curious to me is that most elderly women I know have short hair, yet come from an era that would have prized "feminity" even more perhaps than now? How does that work?

Didn't Marilyn Monroe and co all have short hair so that was the height of femininity when they were younger?

Yup. Twiggy and co in the 1960s too...."

So is femininity what was in fashion when you were in your 20's/30's and that kinda sticks with you?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *heArrowsCouple
over a year ago

Twiggy. Thanks frieda

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Absolutely. I think for boys masculinity is taught loads. I think parents are probably the worst culprits in my opinion. With media images challenging especially masculinity I think ideas about being a boy and being a girl a projected onto children. And I’ve said this before somewhere but I would hypothesise that it’s usually a weird heteronormative, parental thing about making their kids into an ideal partner for someone else. Mums want their sons to project the type of masculinity that they desire. Dads want their daughters to project the type of femininity that they desire. It happens so often.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *emorefridaCouple
over a year ago

La la land

"Twiggy. Thanks frieda"

Behave you

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inkyInkedBiWoman
over a year ago

"Twiggy. Thanks frieda

Behave you

Just wanted to pop on and say love your profile pic, besides the amazing boobs you have a beautiful smile

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The V&A have a fashioning masculinities exhibition on at the moment which I’m hoping to see for my birthday. If anyone is in London or from London do check it out while it’s on.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

"Some of these responses make me want to ask: can men not be ‘feminine’? Or are men simply just not ‘feminine’?

So far, feminity is either what a Victorian man wanted to see in a woman, or something about Disney princesses. I'm baffled, quite frankly.

And despite the plethora of comments about short hair = definitely not feminine, no-one has explained why this is (allegedly) a universal truth

Zoe kravit? Any number of 1960s super models (the most famous of which has elluded me)

Audrey Hepburn? All super feminine. All short hair. "

All true. Which means I'm further questioning all the men (because it was guys) who said they didn't think short hair was ever feminine...

Frida, interesting point about what's "fashionable" in your 20s/30s being your reference point - I'm currently mid 30s and I have no idea what was fashionable in my 20s. I was too busy trying to make do and mend with a 4-13yo child, university to attend and all the rest. I've never EVER been fashionable

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *heArrowsCouple
over a year ago

"Twiggy. Thanks frieda

Behave you

Behaving ... funny in my head it was always me telling you what to do ...

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *heArrowsCouple
over a year ago

"Some of these responses make me want to ask: can men not be ‘feminine’? Or are men simply just not ‘feminine’?

So far, feminity is either what a Victorian man wanted to see in a woman, or something about Disney princesses. I'm baffled, quite frankly.

And despite the plethora of comments about short hair = definitely not feminine, no-one has explained why this is (allegedly) a universal truth

Zoe kravit? Any number of 1960s super models (the most famous of which has elluded me)

Audrey Hepburn? All super feminine. All short hair.

All true. Which means I'm further questioning all the men (because it was guys) who said they didn't think short hair was ever feminine...

if a "male" can be manly and have long hair, jason momoa for example, what a man, then this proves that hair isn't a factor in femininity.

Fashion is not my strong point. I have friends who wear similar clothes to me and are so uncool they are actually fashionable. I am not lucky like that

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *heArrowsCouple
over a year ago

One of the sexiest women I have ever met has short short hair. Kissing her, running my fingers through her hair ... it was hot.

Unfortunately there wasn't enough to get a good grip to pull her hair so I had to improvise. But it worked.

Short hair can be just as sexy as long

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *heArrowsCouple
over a year ago

Now that I have killed this tread I will move on

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Now that I have killed this tread I will move on "

Oh but you haven’t.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

"One of the sexiest women I have ever met has short short hair. Kissing her, running my fingers through her hair ... it was hot.

Unfortunately there wasn't enough to get a good grip to pull her hair so I had to improvise. But it worked.

Short hair can be just as sexy as long "

I think so, and Mr KC agrees. We had a thread on here yesterday (or the day before?) by a lady who was being asked if she was a lesbian because of her short hair do. This experience seemed to be replicated among others. This was partly my motivation for the thread...

So, what is "feminine" in the 21st century? We know what 19th century feminity was, at least.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

I think it's cultural expectations.

As someone who never fit into any of that crap (thanks neurodiversity), I'm quite suspicious of all of it. I think we're indoctrinated to expect certain things of ourselves and others, and to other or punish those who step outside it. That goes for gender and other things (see neurodiversity).

I've been hammered into shape by the way I was raised and have been treated by those around me - some of my traits are from there.

Yes I do tend to dress super femme, but I see it as a costume I put on. I mostly see my cis-ness as "I don't object to the body I was born into" - I wonder if I'd feel masculine if I'd been born a boy.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I either feel feminine or I don't. Mood and mindset determine it for me, not my clothes or my look

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"One of the sexiest women I have ever met has short short hair. Kissing her, running my fingers through her hair ... it was hot.

Unfortunately there wasn't enough to get a good grip to pull her hair so I had to improvise. But it worked.

Short hair can be just as sexy as long "

Short hair is definitely attractive. But I think it is not *the* attractive that conventional beauty standards centre around. Interesting perspectives in the thread and talking about recent history and women with short hair. Desirability comes and goes with trends I guess. I would argue that what made the hair of women like Marilyn attractive wasn’t that it was short but rather the way it was curled? And styled? And I don’t know enough about hair to say but would that have looked as nice if longer? I’m not sure On the hair thing as I said but it’s super super interesting. Thanks all I’ve been learning lots.

Also Compersion with the facts and knowledge

that

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

"I think it's cultural expectations.

I've been hammered into shape by the way I was raised and have been treated by those around me - some of my traits are from there.

Do you *feel* feminine? Or do you think that's you conforming, in the way you might try to conform in terms of neurodiversity?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

"I either feel feminine or I don't. Mood and mindset determine it for me, not my clothes or my look"

Do you mind me asking what it might be about your mood/mindset or perhaps in what situation/circumstance you might feel feminine?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *heArrowsCouple
over a year ago

This is a very good thread.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"I think it's cultural expectations.

I've been hammered into shape by the way I was raised and have been treated by those around me - some of my traits are from there.

Do you *feel* feminine? Or do you think that's you conforming, in the way you might try to conform in terms of neurodiversity? "

No. I feel like me. If I feel good in what I'm wearing, I feel me but sparkly

I think I feel less "feminine" and more "not masculine". Like, this is the body I was born into and it's not worth changing it. (Not that being masculine is bad - just, it's not what I am and I have no need to change)

I can't separate nature from nurture, but I don't think there's an intrinsic ideal of femininity. Just cultural baggage that shifts over time.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

"This is a very good thread. "

If Heineken did threads...

Mr Kipling had a hand in it too, and we all know, he makes exceedingly good breads

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *tephTV67TV/TS
over a year ago

Cheshire

"I think it's cultural expectations.

I've been hammered into shape by the way I was raised and have been treated by those around me - some of my traits are from there.

Do you *feel* feminine? Or do you think that's you conforming, in the way you might try to conform in terms of neurodiversity?

No. I feel like me. If I feel good in what I'm wearing, I feel me but sparkly

I can't separate nature from nurture, but I don't think there's an intrinsic ideal of femininity. Just cultural baggage that shifts over time."

what she said

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I either feel feminine or I don't. Mood and mindset determine it for me, not my clothes or my look

Do you mind me asking what it might be about your mood/mindset or perhaps in what situation/circumstance you might feel feminine? "

I guess it's about whether I feel I look good, comes with how confident I feel

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *heArrowsCouple
over a year ago

"This is a very good thread.

If Heineken did threads...

Mr Kipling had a hand in it too, and we all know, he makes exceedingly good breads

I just like being mentally stimulated. I'm easy like that

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *wist my nipplesCouple
over a year ago

North East Scotland, mostly

This thread has blown my mind! Just poked my head back in after a wee break and wowser, thinky thinky stuff.

I think I associate femininity with softness, physically. Not sure why, though, or where that comes from.

Loving reading everyone's ideas

Mrs TMN x

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

"This thread has blown my mind! Just poked my head back in after a wee break and wowser, thinky thinky stuff.

I think I associate femininity with softness, physically. Not sure why, though, or where that comes from.

Loving reading everyone's ideas

Mrs TMN x"

Sometimes, plugging our brains in and letting the little neurones fire is a good idea

I'm very squishy and soft (physically). VERY squishy. I don't know if that is feminine or not? My squishiness is partly thanks to having birthed a couple of offspring...

Would you consider yourself feminine, Mrs TMN?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

"I either feel feminine or I don't. Mood and mindset determine it for me, not my clothes or my look

Do you mind me asking what it might be about your mood/mindset or perhaps in what situation/circumstance you might feel feminine?

I guess it's about whether I feel I look good, comes with how confident I feel"

That's very interesting. Does it ever come from how others perceive you or based on how others respond to you, perhaps to your appearance/outfit etc?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

" No. I feel like me. If I feel good in what I'm wearing, I feel me but sparkly

Snipping out this quote from you, Swing, because I like it a lot. I similarly feel neither feminine or masculine. I never feel sparkly but I do sometimes feel kind of a better version of me? Mainly if I'm wearing something that I know emphasises my better bits, but can also be felt if Mr KC just looks at me in a certain way...

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *wist my nipplesCouple
over a year ago

North East Scotland, mostly

"This thread has blown my mind! Just poked my head back in after a wee break and wowser, thinky thinky stuff.

I think I associate femininity with softness, physically. Not sure why, though, or where that comes from.

Loving reading everyone's ideas

Mrs TMN x

Sometimes, plugging our brains in and letting the little neurones fire is a good idea

I'm very squishy and soft (physically). VERY squishy. I don't know if that is feminine or not? My squishiness is partly thanks to having birthed a couple of offspring...

Would you consider yourself feminine, Mrs TMN? "

I don't think so, no. Why not, though?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

" No. I feel like me. If I feel good in what I'm wearing, I feel me but sparkly

I get that way too. Different kinds of polish.

There are versions of myself that are neat and professional and I just feel put together. There are others where - it's like being a kid again with a new dress. Just fun. (I don't know if boys feel that way about their appearance? My brother loved the dress up box and rocked the frilly dresses when he was in preschool, so maybe?)

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"This thread has blown my mind! Just poked my head back in after a wee break and wowser, thinky thinky stuff.

I think I associate femininity with softness, physically. Not sure why, though, or where that comes from.

Loving reading everyone's ideas

Mrs TMN x

Sometimes, plugging our brains in and letting the little neurones fire is a good idea

I'm very squishy and soft (physically). VERY squishy. I don't know if that is feminine or not? My squishiness is partly thanks to having birthed a couple of offspring...

Would you consider yourself feminine, Mrs TMN?

I don't think so, no. Why not, though? "

I wonder if there's a platonic (unrealistic?) ideal of femininity that we set for ourselves, and feel not feminine if we don't meet it.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm a simple man with simple hopes..a woman in a skirt with heels not trainers..that's all I ask,her hair can be short medium,long,any colour..with or without makeup...I see less and less women in skirts as the prev culture has almost blotted it out..that's my only wish in femininity...Bring Back Skirts.!!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inkyInkedBiWoman
over a year ago

I think when I’m not feeling my best, I don’t feel feminine really.

When my skin is bad (now

) and I’m not happy with how I look or feel or dress.

I feel feminine when I can dress up, have my hair done, wear a floaty dress and that gives me big confidence so I feel positive about myself

I have THE best dress I bought last year and I feel very feminine when wearing it

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *heArrowsCouple
over a year ago

"This thread has blown my mind! Just poked my head back in after a wee break and wowser, thinky thinky stuff.

I think I associate femininity with softness, physically. Not sure why, though, or where that comes from.

Loving reading everyone's ideas

Mrs TMN x"
softness. Yes. Like you I don't know why I associate it with femininity. Makes me think of my wife

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

May we ask why skirts are so fundamental to feminity? Can a woman not put a leg either side of a piece of fabric and retain exactly the same characteristics as she did before? What about culottes?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I either feel feminine or I don't. Mood and mindset determine it for me, not my clothes or my look

Do you mind me asking what it might be about your mood/mindset or perhaps in what situation/circumstance you might feel feminine?

I guess it's about whether I feel I look good, comes with how confident I feel

That's very interesting. Does it ever come from how others perceive you or based on how others respond to you, perhaps to your appearance/outfit etc?"

Depends on who the others are. My fwb, I can read him like a book I know how he feels and what he's thinking when he looks at me and yes it does make me feel feminine

But mainly it comes from me....My self confidence. I don't know how else to describe it

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *heArrowsCouple
over a year ago

"I think when I’m not feeling my best, I don’t feel feminine really.

When my skin is bad (now

) and I’m not happy with how I look or feel or dress.

I feel feminine when I can dress up, have my hair done, wear a floaty dress and that gives me big confidence so I feel positive about myself

I have THE best dress I bought last year and I feel very feminine when wearing it "
This is very interesting. I am sure a lot of people would assume that you are always feminine. Or maybe I'm projecting.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

"This thread has blown my mind! Just poked my head back in after a wee break and wowser, thinky thinky stuff.

I think I associate femininity with softness, physically. Not sure why, though, or where that comes from.

Loving reading everyone's ideas

Mrs TMN x

Sometimes, plugging our brains in and letting the little neurones fire is a good idea

I'm very squishy and soft (physically). VERY squishy. I don't know if that is feminine or not? My squishiness is partly thanks to having birthed a couple of offspring...

Would you consider yourself feminine, Mrs TMN?

I don't think so, no. Why not, though? "

Why not indeed?! These are the difficult questions being posed on a Good Friday evening

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

"I either feel feminine or I don't. Mood and mindset determine it for me, not my clothes or my look

Do you mind me asking what it might be about your mood/mindset or perhaps in what situation/circumstance you might feel feminine?

I guess it's about whether I feel I look good, comes with how confident I feel

That's very interesting. Does it ever come from how others perceive you or based on how others respond to you, perhaps to your appearance/outfit etc?

Depends on who the others are. My fwb, I can read him like a book I know how he feels and what he's thinking when he looks at me and yes it does make me feel feminine

But mainly it comes from me....My self confidence. I don't know how else to describe it "

That all sounds very rational. I get some very nice feelings (unsure if it's of being "feminine") when Mr KC looks at me. It doesn't have to be around me being dressed in a certain way though...

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *emorefridaCouple
over a year ago

La la land

"Twiggy. Thanks frieda

Behave you

Just wanted to pop on and say love your profile pic, besides the amazing boobs you have a beautiful smile

Thank you lovely

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inkyInkedBiWoman
over a year ago

"I think when I’m not feeling my best, I don’t feel feminine really.

When my skin is bad (now

) and I’m not happy with how I look or feel or dress.

I feel feminine when I can dress up, have my hair done, wear a floaty dress and that gives me big confidence so I feel positive about myself

I have THE best dress I bought last year and I feel very feminine when wearing it This is very interesting. I am sure a lot of people would assume that you are always feminine. Or maybe I'm projecting. "

I used to when I was younger. Tbh I can’t be bothered most of the time.

I feel far from it today, jogging bottoms and hoodie. I don’t know why I associate feeling feminine myself with what I wear but it’s just how I feel.

I think when confidence is low I don’t put much effort into what I wear or how I look.

Also as I’ve gotten older I’m less bothered what people think of all that, rushing on the school run I’ve looked a mess but hey ho

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

"I think when I’m not feeling my best, I don’t feel feminine really.

When my skin is bad (now

) and I’m not happy with how I look or feel or dress.

I feel feminine when I can dress up, have my hair done, wear a floaty dress and that gives me big confidence so I feel positive about myself

I used to when I was younger. Tbh I can’t be bothered most of the time.

I feel far from it today, jogging bottoms and hoodie. I don’t know why I associate feeling feminine myself with what I wear but it’s just how I feel.

I think when confidence is low I don’t put much effort into what I wear or how I look.

Also as I’ve gotten older I’m less bothered what people think of all that, rushing on the school run I’ve looked a mess but hey ho

Isn't it interesting how many of us seem to feel more feminine when wearing a dress/skirt or when dressed a certain way? I wonder if that's something inherent or whether it's societal design?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

May we ask why skirts are so fundamental to feminity? Can a woman not put a leg either side of a piece of fabric and retain exactly the same characteristics as she did before? What about culottes?

Difficult question to answer but it's the only item of clothing that tells us apart..blur the lines in between and certain things are lost but keep that one identity and you keep feminine.. ??

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm a simple man with simple hopes..a woman in a skirt with heels not trainers..that's all I ask,her hair can be short medium,long,any colour..with or without makeup...I see less and less women in skirts as the prev culture has almost blotted it out..that's my only wish in femininity...Bring Back Skirts.!!"
‘Are there women, really? Most assuredly the theory of the eternal feminine still has its adherents who will whisper in your ear: ‘Even in Russia women still are women’; and other erudite persons – sometimes the very same – say with a sigh: ‘Woman is losing her way, woman is lost.’

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

May we ask why skirts are so fundamental to feminity? Can a woman not put a leg either side of a piece of fabric and retain exactly the same characteristics as she did before? What about culottes?

Difficult question to answer but it's the only item of clothing that tells us apart..blur the lines in between and certain things are lost but keep that one identity and you keep feminine.. ?? "

I'm lost. Is it so very critical to not "blur lines"? I'm pretty sure that I'm obviously female, even if I stick my legs down two bits of fabric (she says, wearing Tik-tok leggings)...

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

May we ask why skirts are so fundamental to feminity? Can a woman not put a leg either side of a piece of fabric and retain exactly the same characteristics as she did before? What about culottes?

Difficult question to answer but it's the only item of clothing that tells us apart..blur the lines in between and certain things are lost but keep that one identity and you keep feminine.. ?? "

So if a woman doesn't wear a skirt she's not feminine? I said earlier that I think femininity is what others impose on you. Their idea of what is feminine. I don't feel more feminine in a (rarely worn) skirt.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *rMrsBrightsideCouple
over a year ago

Newcastle

I’m quite feminine in the way I look and dress. I think that a lot of people see that as a bad thing nowadays though. Like we shouldn’t be like that as we only do it for men. However it’s how I feel the best about myself. Wearing skirts and a pair of heels makes me feel more confident.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I either feel feminine or I don't. Mood and mindset determine it for me, not my clothes or my look

Do you mind me asking what it might be about your mood/mindset or perhaps in what situation/circumstance you might feel feminine?

I guess it's about whether I feel I look good, comes with how confident I feel

That's very interesting. Does it ever come from how others perceive you or based on how others respond to you, perhaps to your appearance/outfit etc?

Depends on who the others are. My fwb, I can read him like a book I know how he feels and what he's thinking when he looks at me and yes it does make me feel feminine

But mainly it comes from me....My self confidence. I don't know how else to describe it

That all sounds very rational. I get some very nice feelings (unsure if it's of being "feminine") when Mr KC looks at me. It doesn't have to be around me being dressed in a certain way though..."

Doesn't have to be how I am dressed either, I said if I felt I looked good I felt confident, I could feel that wearing leggins, like I say it's my self confidence and mindset....

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

" I’m quite feminine in the way I look and dress. I think that a lot of people see that as a bad thing nowadays though. Like we shouldn’t be like that as we only do it for men. However it’s how I feel the best about myself. Wearing skirts and a pair of heels makes me feel more confident.

Kx"

Absolutely if it makes you feel great, then it's a wonderful thing indeed!

I don't wear heels (I can't anymore) but I do wear dresses and skirts, but mainly for work because it's easy

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

May we ask why skirts are so fundamental to feminity? Can a woman not put a leg either side of a piece of fabric and retain exactly the same characteristics as she did before? What about culottes?

Difficult question to answer but it's the only item of clothing that tells us apart..blur the lines in between and certain things are lost but keep that one identity and you keep feminine.. ??

My observations were purely from a personal point of view..as what I think is feminine..everyone will of course see different and in an ideal world we could probably come to some sort of agreement...but...alas..

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

May we ask why skirts are so fundamental to feminity? Can a woman not put a leg either side of a piece of fabric and retain exactly the same characteristics as she did before? What about culottes?

Difficult question to answer but it's the only item of clothing that tells us apart..blur the lines in between and certain things are lost but keep that one identity and you keep feminine.. ?? "

So men in kilts are women and women in tightly fitted pants suits (showing off all their curves) are men?

I'm confused.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

May we ask why skirts are so fundamental to feminity? Can a woman not put a leg either side of a piece of fabric and retain exactly the same characteristics as she did before? What about culottes?

Difficult question to answer but it's the only item of clothing that tells us apart..blur the lines in between and certain things are lost but keep that one identity and you keep feminine.. ??

Interestingly, men, I suspect, would feel more ‘feminine’ in a skirt than I presume lots of women would.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *heArrowsCouple
over a year ago

"I think when I’m not feeling my best, I don’t feel feminine really.

When my skin is bad (now

) and I’m not happy with how I look or feel or dress.

I feel feminine when I can dress up, have my hair done, wear a floaty dress and that gives me big confidence so I feel positive about myself

I used to when I was younger. Tbh I can’t be bothered most of the time.

I feel far from it today, jogging bottoms and hoodie. I don’t know why I associate feeling feminine myself with what I wear but it’s just how I feel.

I think when confidence is low I don’t put much effort into what I wear or how I look.

Also as I’ve gotten older I’m less bothered what people think of all that, rushing on the school run I’ve looked a mess but hey ho

Isn't it interesting how many of us seem to feel more feminine when wearing a dress/skirt or when dressed a certain way? I wonder if that's something inherent or whether it's societal design? "

As a teenager I once wore a black skirt to a nightclub. I felt super masculine.

I had my hair back combed, white face make up. I was at my cure head best. The skirt swished when I was moshing. It was wonderful. I was showing off how masculine I was by wearing a skirt. I was 6 3, built like a truck and a skirt wasn't going to make me look any less a man

So perhaps you are right. It's intent and mindset that allow you to feel femininity and masculinity. And like Kinky bi said. Its hard to feel feminine when you are up to your neck in real life

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

May we ask why skirts are so fundamental to feminity? Can a woman not put a leg either side of a piece of fabric and retain exactly the same characteristics as she did before? What about culottes?

Difficult question to answer but it's the only item of clothing that tells us apart..blur the lines in between and certain things are lost but keep that one identity and you keep feminine.. ??

So men in kilts are women and women in tightly fitted pants suits (showing off all their curves) are men?

I'm confused."

No but kilts are skirts but the manly kind.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

May we ask why skirts are so fundamental to feminity? Can a woman not put a leg either side of a piece of fabric and retain exactly the same characteristics as she did before? What about culottes?

Difficult question to answer but it's the only item of clothing that tells us apart..blur the lines in between and certain things are lost but keep that one identity and you keep feminine.. ??

So men in kilts are women and women in tightly fitted pants suits (showing off all their curves) are men?

I'm confused.

No but kilts are skirts but the manly kind.

. "

So we're applying gender roles to fabric cut in certain ways.

This is why we can't have nice things, Steve

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

I'm going to wear a kilt and see if it makes me feel more feminine. Should I wear it the traditional way? It might be a bit draughty

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *tephTV67TV/TS
over a year ago

Cheshire

It’s a shame that women on this thread don’t feel they’re feminine due to the clothes they wear or appearance. I’ve said previously I think it’s a mental thing rather than visual.

If I’ve gone through a traumatic experience I know I’d prefer to have a woman around than a man. It’s not because they’re soft and kind. It’s because I know they’d understand that trauma, help me get through it and out the other side. Take some of that burden off my shoulders. It’s a gift, given to men from women.

Feminine feelings within myself I’ve never felt weakened me, quite the opposite. They allowed me to cry, show support and get the job done. The more you feel helpless the more you’ll feel stronger after accepting of help and support.

Women give this to each other unselfishly ,as guys we need to express this more especially to each other. Masculinity doesn’t necessarily mean to be isolated.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I don’t know how to explain this, but feminity for me is about identifying as a woman and just embracing and loving yourself as a female.

It's just a feeling you feel within yourself. It's nothing to do with clothes or makeup or those things that would be associated with being girly. I don't think this makes any sense but there's my thoughts on it.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"I'm going to wear a kilt and see if it makes me feel more feminine. Should I wear it the traditional way? It might be a bit draughty

Make sure you note all the reactions, given you'll be seated, and report in the Stories and Fantasies section

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

"I'm going to wear a kilt and see if it makes me feel more feminine. Should I wear it the traditional way? It might be a bit draughty

Make sure you note all the reactions, given you'll be seated, and report in the Stories and Fantasies section

*Keeps knees together*. That'll certainly teach me to sit in a more ladylike manner!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"I'm going to wear a kilt and see if it makes me feel more feminine. Should I wear it the traditional way? It might be a bit draughty

Make sure you note all the reactions, given you'll be seated, and report in the Stories and Fantasies section

*Keeps knees together*. That'll certainly teach me to sit in a more ladylike manner!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

May we ask why skirts are so fundamental to feminity? Can a woman not put a leg either side of a piece of fabric and retain exactly the same characteristics as she did before? What about culottes?

Difficult question to answer but it's the only item of clothing that tells us apart..blur the lines in between and certain things are lost but keep that one identity and you keep feminine.. ??

So men in kilts are women and women in tightly fitted pants suits (showing off all their curves) are men?

I'm confused.

No but kilts are skirts but the manly kind.

So we're applying gender roles to fabric cut in certain ways.

This is why we can't have nice things, Steve

Duh! Men’s Trousers. Women’s trousers. Not just trousers. Though the difference is probably that we’re granted pockets and you’re not.

Ah we’re a mad species. It’s hilarious

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

"It’s a shame that women on this thread don’t feel they’re feminine due to the clothes they wear or appearance. I’ve said previously I think it’s a mental thing rather than visual.

Women give this to each other unselfishly ,as guys we need to express this more especially to each other. Masculinity doesn’t necessarily mean to be isolated.

Do you think feelings/emotions have gender specific connotations? Or is that just what society has labelled them?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

May we ask why skirts are so fundamental to feminity? Can a woman not put a leg either side of a piece of fabric and retain exactly the same characteristics as she did before? What about culottes?

Difficult question to answer but it's the only item of clothing that tells us apart..blur the lines in between and certain things are lost but keep that one identity and you keep feminine.. ??

So men in kilts are women and women in tightly fitted pants suits (showing off all their curves) are men?

I'm confused.

No but kilts are skirts but the manly kind.

So we're applying gender roles to fabric cut in certain ways.

This is why we can't have nice things, Steve

Snort

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

May we ask why skirts are so fundamental to feminity? Can a woman not put a leg either side of a piece of fabric and retain exactly the same characteristics as she did before? What about culottes?

Difficult question to answer but it's the only item of clothing that tells us apart..blur the lines in between and certain things are lost but keep that one identity and you keep feminine.. ??

So men in kilts are women and women in tightly fitted pants suits (showing off all their curves) are men?

I'm confused.

No but kilts are skirts but the manly kind.

So we're applying gender roles to fabric cut in certain ways.

This is why we can't have nice things, Steve

Duh! Men’s Trousers. Women’s trousers. Not just trousers. Though the difference is probably that we’re granted pockets and you’re not.

Ah we’re a mad species. It’s hilarious"

Ah sometimes we get pockets but they're never as HUGE as men's pockets

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

May we ask why skirts are so fundamental to feminity? Can a woman not put a leg either side of a piece of fabric and retain exactly the same characteristics as she did before? What about culottes?

Difficult question to answer but it's the only item of clothing that tells us apart..blur the lines in between and certain things are lost but keep that one identity and you keep feminine.. ??

So men in kilts are women and women in tightly fitted pants suits (showing off all their curves) are men?

I'm confused.

No but kilts are skirts but the manly kind.

So we're applying gender roles to fabric cut in certain ways.

This is why we can't have nice things, Steve

Duh! Men’s Trousers. Women’s trousers. Not just trousers. Though the difference is probably that we’re granted pockets and you’re not.

Ah we’re a mad species. It’s hilarious

Ah sometimes we get pockets but they're never as HUGE as men's pockets

Ban decorative pockets.

If I can't put at least a debit card in there, it shouldn't exist.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *heArrowsCouple
over a year ago

Good point steph. 5 years of therapy gave me the ability to cry.

I had issues to deal with but it wasn't masculinity (toxic or otherwise) that stopped me from showing emotions. For most of my life I suppressed every emotion. Couldn't let the bad memories out so everything stayed locked down.

Maybe my school friends are different but they are a fairly emotionally intelligent group. Not afraid to look "weak" in front of each other

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

May we ask why skirts are so fundamental to feminity? Can a woman not put a leg either side of a piece of fabric and retain exactly the same characteristics as she did before? What about culottes?

Difficult question to answer but it's the only item of clothing that tells us apart..blur the lines in between and certain things are lost but keep that one identity and you keep feminine.. ??

So men in kilts are women and women in tightly fitted pants suits (showing off all their curves) are men?

I'm confused.

No but kilts are skirts but the manly kind.

So we're applying gender roles to fabric cut in certain ways.

This is why we can't have nice things, Steve

Duh! Men’s Trousers. Women’s trousers. Not just trousers. Though the difference is probably that we’re granted pockets and you’re not.

Ah we’re a mad species. It’s hilarious"

I don't need pockets nowadays. I have a wheelchair fanny(pack)

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

May we ask why skirts are so fundamental to feminity? Can a woman not put a leg either side of a piece of fabric and retain exactly the same characteristics as she did before? What about culottes?

Difficult question to answer but it's the only item of clothing that tells us apart..blur the lines in between and certain things are lost but keep that one identity and you keep feminine.. ??

So men in kilts are women and women in tightly fitted pants suits (showing off all their curves) are men?

I'm confused.

No but kilts are skirts but the manly kind.

So we're applying gender roles to fabric cut in certain ways.

This is why we can't have nice things, Steve

Duh! Men’s Trousers. Women’s trousers. Not just trousers. Though the difference is probably that we’re granted pockets and you’re not.

Ah we’re a mad species. It’s hilarious

Ah sometimes we get pockets but they're never as HUGE as men's pockets

Ban decorative pockets.

If I can't put at least a debit card in there, it shouldn't exist. "

I want to put a bottle of wine in there!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

May we ask why skirts are so fundamental to feminity? Can a woman not put a leg either side of a piece of fabric and retain exactly the same characteristics as she did before? What about culottes?

Difficult question to answer but it's the only item of clothing that tells us apart..blur the lines in between and certain things are lost but keep that one identity and you keep feminine.. ??

So men in kilts are women and women in tightly fitted pants suits (showing off all their curves) are men?

I'm confused.

No but kilts are skirts but the manly kind.

So we're applying gender roles to fabric cut in certain ways.

This is why we can't have nice things, Steve

Duh! Men’s Trousers. Women’s trousers. Not just trousers. Though the difference is probably that we’re granted pockets and you’re not.

Ah we’re a mad species. It’s hilarious

I don't need pockets nowadays. I have a wheelchair fanny(pack)

Ooh, fancy

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

May we ask why skirts are so fundamental to feminity? Can a woman not put a leg either side of a piece of fabric and retain exactly the same characteristics as she did before? What about culottes?

Difficult question to answer but it's the only item of clothing that tells us apart..blur the lines in between and certain things are lost but keep that one identity and you keep feminine.. ??

So men in kilts are women and women in tightly fitted pants suits (showing off all their curves) are men?

I'm confused.

No but kilts are skirts but the manly kind.

So we're applying gender roles to fabric cut in certain ways.

This is why we can't have nice things, Steve

Duh! Men’s Trousers. Women’s trousers. Not just trousers. Though the difference is probably that we’re granted pockets and you’re not.

Ah we’re a mad species. It’s hilarious

Ah sometimes we get pockets but they're never as HUGE as men's pockets

Because obvs you can just put it all in your handbag that you obviously carry because you don’t have a penis.

DUH!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"Good point steph. 5 years of therapy gave me the ability to cry.

Maybe my school friends are different but they are a fairly emotionally intelligent group. Not afraid to look "weak" in front of each other "

I think my emotional display is much more about neurodiversity plus trauma plus therapy, than gender. It probably reads feminine, but that's not what's behind it

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" Ban decorative pockets.

If I can't put at least a debit card in there, it shouldn't exist. "

Radical. Do you want the same as us or something?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

May we ask why skirts are so fundamental to feminity? Can a woman not put a leg either side of a piece of fabric and retain exactly the same characteristics as she did before? What about culottes?

Difficult question to answer but it's the only item of clothing that tells us apart..blur the lines in between and certain things are lost but keep that one identity and you keep feminine.. ??

So men in kilts are women and women in tightly fitted pants suits (showing off all their curves) are men?

I'm confused.

No but kilts are skirts but the manly kind.

So we're applying gender roles to fabric cut in certain ways.

This is why we can't have nice things, Steve

Duh! Men’s Trousers. Women’s trousers. Not just trousers. Though the difference is probably that we’re granted pockets and you’re not.

Ah we’re a mad species. It’s hilarious

I don't need pockets nowadays. I have a wheelchair fanny(pack)

Ooh, fancy

Lacey dubbed it my "wheelchair vagina". I think I can probably get a bottle of wine in it, actually. My wheelchair pouch I mean. Not my vagina

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

" Ban decorative pockets.

If I can't put at least a debit card in there, it shouldn't exist.

Radical. Do you want the same as us or something?

'fraid so. Uppity bitch that I am.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

May we ask why skirts are so fundamental to feminity? Can a woman not put a leg either side of a piece of fabric and retain exactly the same characteristics as she did before? What about culottes?

Difficult question to answer but it's the only item of clothing that tells us apart..blur the lines in between and certain things are lost but keep that one identity and you keep feminine.. ??

So men in kilts are women and women in tightly fitted pants suits (showing off all their curves) are men?

I'm confused.

No but kilts are skirts but the manly kind.

So we're applying gender roles to fabric cut in certain ways.

This is why we can't have nice things, Steve

Duh! Men’s Trousers. Women’s trousers. Not just trousers. Though the difference is probably that we’re granted pockets and you’re not.

Ah we’re a mad species. It’s hilarious

I don't need pockets nowadays. I have a wheelchair fanny(pack)

Ooh, fancy

Lacey dubbed it my "wheelchair vagina". I think I can probably get a bottle of wine in it, actually. My wheelchair pouch I mean. Not my vagina

*Fab photo challenge*

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don’t know how to explain this, but feminity for me is about identifying as a woman and just embracing and loving yourself as a female.

No it makes sense. So for you femininity is something you just possess, by being woman?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" Ban decorative pockets.

If I can't put at least a debit card in there, it shouldn't exist.

Radical. Do you want the same as us or something?

'fraid so. Uppity bitch that I am."

No no. It’s … hot?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Damn sorry Mrs KC. Thank you again for the thread

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *heArrowsCouple
over a year ago

May we ask why skirts are so fundamental to feminity? Can a woman not put a leg either side of a piece of fabric and retain exactly the same characteristics as she did before? What about culottes?

Difficult question to answer but it's the only item of clothing that tells us apart..blur the lines in between and certain things are lost but keep that one identity and you keep feminine.. ??

So men in kilts are women and women in tightly fitted pants suits (showing off all their curves) are men?

I'm confused.

No but kilts are skirts but the manly kind.

So we're applying gender roles to fabric cut in certain ways.

This is why we can't have nice things, Steve

Duh! Men’s Trousers. Women’s trousers. Not just trousers. Though the difference is probably that we’re granted pockets and you’re not.

Ah we’re a mad species. It’s hilarious

I don't need pockets nowadays. I have a wheelchair fanny(pack)

Ooh, fancy

Lacey dubbed it my "wheelchair vagina". I think I can probably get a bottle of wine in it, actually. My wheelchair pouch I mean. Not my vagina

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *tephTV67TV/TS
over a year ago

Cheshire

"Good point steph. 5 years of therapy gave me the ability to cry.

Maybe my school friends are different but they are a fairly emotionally intelligent group. Not afraid to look "weak" in front of each other "

Why do we see crying as weak ?

When my first child was born I held back the tears. She was beautiful, someone I helped create I felt overwhelmed by emotion but as a younger man I felt I had to suppress those feelings, how fucking stupid was I ?

Now I’ll cry happily, admittedly mostly alone but I don’t half feel better afterwards. So glad your therapy helped, cry when you’re happy or sad, alone or with someone who loves you. I know I do.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

Thank you for all the contributions, folks. Looks like the concept of "femininity" is highly subjective but may well have roots in very outdated ideas of the role of women, especially women of a particular class and race. What it means in the 21st century, who knows?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

It's a fascinating topic OP, you alway contribute so well

, so it's no surprise.

It's hard to separate our behaviour, from who we inherently are as people. We can all think and behave pretty much alike. Our traits are on multiple continua.

I don't think I can really define femininity. We're all inherently better just accepting and being ourselves anf liking others for the same.

Much of the world would be better if feminine qualities were pursued, with less aggression than we've come to accept as good leadership.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately