FabSwingers.com forum: Major sponsor WITHDRAWS funding for a British Cycling race in stand against the governing body's 'to

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Key sponsor withdraws race funding in protest against British Cycling's trans ban. A leading sponsor has withdrawn funding from a British Cycling race in protest at the governing body's decision to suspend its transgender policy, but some TERF company has stepped in to replace them, shame on British Cycling

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By *arlomaleMan
over a year ago

darlington

Peter Stanton has also pulled the funding on mens junior cycling his money his choice

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

wokingham

Good for them. About time sports organisations started standing up

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

This is not a clear cut issue and deserves to be discussed and debated without insults thrown around.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

This is not a clear cut issue and deserves to be discussed and debated without insults thrown around."

This

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

This is not a clear cut issue and deserves to be discussed and debated without insults thrown around.

This

Thank you!

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

This is not a clear cut issue and deserves to be discussed and debated without insults thrown around."
oh males can be terfs as well there usually the loudest mouths, I obviously come from a pro trans POV but I applaud Peter Stanton what a legend x

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Peter Stanton has also pulled the funding on mens junior cycling his money his choice "
sone other right wing TERF company will step in no doubt

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town

Good debate

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Peter Stanton has also pulled the funding on mens junior cycling his money his choice sone other right wing TERF company will step in no doubt "

Are you reading what's been said? I'd appreciate if you didn't call anyone who has any other perspective than yours a TERF.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Under British Cycling’s previous policy, trans women were allowed to compete if they reduced their testosterone levels below 5 nmol/L for a 12-month period. My last hormone panel mine was 0.4 nmol/L

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/apr/13/campaign-groups-to-save-womens-cycling-classic-hit-by-trans-rights-row?CMP=share_btn_tw

Link if you want to copy paste it ^

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I have seen a few reference recently about the TRANS debate but am not enlightened.

Can someone explain (without bias)what the arguments are on this topic?

Keen to understand more without referring to media sources?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Peter Stanton has also pulled the funding on mens junior cycling his money his choice sone other right wing TERF company will step in no doubt

Are you reading what's been said? I'd appreciate if you didn't call anyone who has any other perspective than yours a TERF. "
definitely sex matters and fair play for woman have stepped in with the 15 grand both definitely 100% TERF groups

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

This is not a clear cut issue and deserves to be discussed and debated without insults thrown around. oh males can be terfs as well there usually the loudest mouths, I obviously come from a pro trans POV but I applaud Peter Stanton what a legend x "

No issue with you being pro trans obviously.. but the use of TERFs is offensive. I’m v much support trans people but want an open honest debate about a v difficult issue that is most definitely not clear cut.

However in my experience when the debate is not going the way of the pro trans agenda TERF is the language bandied about to insult & shut down debate.

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By *heron212Man
over a year ago

London

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

This is not a clear cut issue and deserves to be discussed and debated without insults thrown around.

This

Thank you!"

The conversation that needs to be had but few are brave enough to have in a public setting.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I have seen a few reference recently about the TRANS debate but am not enlightened.

Can someone explain (without bias)what the arguments are on this topic?

Keen to understand more without referring to media sources?"
yeah borris and his mates have been using the trans debate to round up votes and British cycling have changed policy refusing trans woman the main sponsor has pulled out in support of trans woman but a TERF group has stepped in with the cash

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

However in my experience when the debate is not going the way of the pro trans agenda TERF is the language bandied about to insult & shut down debate."
gender critical might be a better word but TERF is a universal word used in the trans community just like cis

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I have seen a few reference recently about the TRANS debate but am not enlightened.

Can someone explain (without bias)what the arguments are on this topic?

Keen to understand more without referring to media sources?"

In a nutshell, a bunch of people who were born with vaginas are salty about people who once had penises trying to not have penises and infiltrating vagina life. In this case, the lives of sportsy vaginas. The argument is that people who once had penises/switching to not having penises have a lot of testosterone that gives them an advantage over their estrogenic counterparts.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

However in my experience when the debate is not going the way of the pro trans agenda TERF is the language bandied about to insult & shut down debate."

I guess it’s like white people debating about the lives of black people. Or men debating about the lives of women. If you don’t want to be called a trans exclusionary radical feminist, then don’t say terfy shit? Just like if you don’t want to be called a racist, don’t say racist shit?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I have seen a few reference recently about the TRANS debate but am not enlightened.

Can someone explain (without bias)what the arguments are on this topic?

Keen to understand more without referring to media sources?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

However in my experience when the debate is not going the way of the pro trans agenda TERF is the language bandied about to insult & shut down debate. gender critical might be a better word but TERF is a universal word used in the trans community just like cis "

In the trans community you may use those terms but I’m not trans and I object to being described as cis. I’m a woman end of.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I have seen a few reference recently about the TRANS debate but am not enlightened.

Can someone explain (without bias)what the arguments are on this topic?

Keen to understand more without referring to media sources?

Love the description and thanks/

No bias from you which is great

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

However in my experience when the debate is not going the way of the pro trans agenda TERF is the language bandied about to insult & shut down debate.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

However in my experience when the debate is not going the way of the pro trans agenda TERF is the language bandied about to insult & shut down debate.

peace and Gandhi

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

In the trans community you may use those terms but I’m not trans and I object to being described as cis. I’m a woman end of.

Why do you object to being called cisgendered? You ARE cisgendered. Just as I am. It’s like being offended at being called a woman. She is a trans woman. You are a woman. I am a woman. Regardless of biological origins, we are women.

I don’t think you have a very good grasp of the actual meaning of any of the terminology and you’re just looking for something to be offended about.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

In the trans community you may use those terms but I’m not trans and I object to being described as cis. I’m a woman end of.

You are 6ft tall there are very few women who are 6ft tall. There is a difference between trans women & biologically born women and it needs discussion with shouting down & sidelining of women. It does not mean I don’t accept you as a woman but it’s not as simple as that."
6.8’ in my platform heels and I can turn heads half a mile away x but you’re right I don’t pass well in public I get the is that a man or a woman comments a kid in the supermarket the other day said to her mom look at that tall lady which made me day but on the whole I’m happy being an older trans later woman

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

However in my experience when the debate is not going the way of the pro trans agenda TERF is the language bandied about to insult & shut down debate.

Last time I checked white people cannot transition to black people & vice versa.

Totally not the same debate.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

However in my experience when the debate is not going the way of the pro trans agenda TERF is the language bandied about to insult & shut down debate.

Last time I checked white people cannot transition to black people & vice versa.

Totally not the same debate."
yeah they can I was a wigger years ago use to listen to 2live crew in my mates Renault 21 turbo

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Is this terf thing like the snowflake hater thing all over again come on people what happened to real good old fashioned insults my god has calling people a cunt or a wanker gone out of date is it one of them sneaky insults where people fear conflict and make up silly words so people dont know there being insulted and they can all have a little giggle about it its all pretty damn pathetic really at least pig latin made sense

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

In the trans community you may use those terms but I’m not trans and I object to being described as cis. I’m a woman end of.

You are 6ft tall there are very few women who are 6ft tall. There is a difference between trans women & biologically born women and it needs discussion with shouting down & sidelining of women. It does not mean I don’t accept you as a woman but it’s not as simple as that. 6.8’ in my platform heels and I can turn heads half a mile away x but you’re right I don’t pass well in public I get the is that a man or a woman comments a kid in the supermarket the other day said to her mom look at that tall lady which made me day but on the whole I’m happy being an older trans later woman "

And I totally celebrate that you are happy & I’m sure you turn heads as you look great. But it is a nuanced debate..

But women do not have penises.. a trans woman can have a penis and may well be going through the journey not to have a penis..

The language around the debate is tricky I agree but it still needs discussion.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I have seen a few reference recently about the TRANS debate but am not enlightened.

Can someone explain (without bias)what the arguments are on this topic?

Keen to understand more without referring to media sources?

Maybe a different slant here on the back of the above great no nonsense description.

How long to the effects/physical advantages of Testosterone last post op?

Are they always elevated or do the levels drop over time?

How long does the muscle mass (gained from being male) take to reduce?

I know from my previous readings of sports doping that all competitors have a biological passport which shows any deviations of hormone levels.

Is there a defined level of testosterone that the female competitors need to be under?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Iv got to say OP i been watching the last 5 or 6 of this kind of post you do and you seem to be outraged an awful lot about things i hope you find a way to control the cycling thingibob hopefully it calms you a little

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

In the trans community you may use those terms but I’m not trans and I object to being described as cis. I’m a woman end of.

You are 6ft tall there are very few women who are 6ft tall. There is a difference between trans women & biologically born women and it needs discussion with shouting down & sidelining of women. It does not mean I don’t accept you as a woman but it’s not as simple as that. 6.8’ in my platform heels and I can turn heads half a mile away x but you’re right I don’t pass well in public I get the is that a man or a woman comments a kid in the supermarket the other day said to her mom look at that tall lady which made me day but on the whole I’m happy being an older trans later woman

And I totally celebrate that you are happy & I’m sure you turn heads as you look great. But it is a nuanced debate..

But women do not have penises.. a trans woman can have a penis and may well be going through the journey not to have a penis..

The language around the debate is tricky I agree but it still needs discussion."
I agree x that news article said the requirement is having your T under 5 nmol/L for a year I believe a man has 15-10 nmol/L, I still have my balls but the blocker I take nukes my T and I’m constantly way below 1 nmol/L with my E2 at 530 pmol/L I feel great, I cycle long distances and have great female shape definitely when I compare to how a male cyclist legs look, I’ll be entering a few local races as a female this year but more for the fun of riding on closed roads x sorry for the waffle

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

However in my experience when the debate is not going the way of the pro trans agenda TERF is the language bandied about to insult & shut down debate.

Last time I checked white people cannot transition to black people & vice versa.

Totally not the same debate."

It’s exactly the same debate. It’s about a majority discussing what’s best for a minority when the minority is in the best position to decide what’s good for them.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

However in my experience when the debate is not going the way of the pro trans agenda TERF is the language bandied about to insult & shut down debate.

Last time I checked white people cannot transition to black people & vice versa.

Totally not the same debate.

It’s exactly the same debate. It’s about a majority discussing what’s best for a minority when the minority is in the best position to decide what’s good for them. "

Women - ciswomen if you wish - are very much affected so they should be consulted on changes which impact them.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I have seen a few reference recently about the TRANS debate but am not enlightened.

Can someone explain (without bias)what the arguments are on this topic?

Keen to understand more without referring to media sources?

Maybe a different slant here on the back of the above great no nonsense description.

How long to the effects/physical advantages of Testosterone last post op?

Are they always elevated or do the levels drop over time?

How long does the muscle mass (gained from being male) take to reduce?

I know from my previous readings of sports doping that all competitors have a biological passport which shows any deviations of hormone levels.

Is there a defined level of testosterone that the female competitors need to be under?"
absolutely British cycling say you must be under 5nmol/L I currently have balls and I’m 0.4 nmol/L and muscle atrophy takes place quickly you lose 10/20 % of your previous strength, I think this case the trans woman rider had only started hrt in February

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

In the trans community you may use those terms but I’m not trans and I object to being described as cis. I’m a woman end of.

You are 6ft tall there are very few women who are 6ft tall. There is a difference between trans women & biologically born women and it needs discussion with shouting down & sidelining of women. It does not mean I don’t accept you as a woman but it’s not as simple as that. 6.8’ in my platform heels and I can turn heads half a mile away x but you’re right I don’t pass well in public I get the is that a man or a woman comments a kid in the supermarket the other day said to her mom look at that tall lady which made me day but on the whole I’m happy being an older trans later woman

And I totally celebrate that you are happy & I’m sure you turn heads as you look great. But it is a nuanced debate..

But women do not have penises.. a trans woman can have a penis and may well be going through the journey not to have a penis..

The language around the debate is tricky I agree but it still needs discussion. I agree x that news article said the requirement is having your T under 5 nmol/L for a year I believe a man has 15-10 nmol/L, I still have my balls but the blocker I take nukes my T and I’m constantly way below 1 nmol/L with my E2 at 530 pmol/L I feel great, I cycle long distances and have great female shape definitely when I compare to how a male cyclist legs look, I’ll be entering a few local races as a female this year but more for the fun of riding on closed roads x sorry for the waffle "

No need to apologise for the waffle.. I’m interested in the hormonal side of things & totally open to discussion. Feel free to pm as I can’t pm you.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Iv got to say OP i been watching the last 5 or 6 of this kind of post you do and you seem to be outraged an awful lot about things i hope you find a way to control the cycling thingibob hopefully it calms you a little far from it x it’s just a current affairs issue ATM and I have access to what trans woman are saying through the groups I am in, I’m sorry if words like TERF cut deep just like conspiracy theorist or right wing left wing it’s all but labels x cut deep? Iv read it about 2 times in my life it another one of them crappy new age insults nobody understands but those in the know like going to spain and the bar staff are calling you all names under the sun and you think there being friendly "
it’s a good acronym to label the gender critical you have to agree

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

However in my experience when the debate is not going the way of the pro trans agenda TERF is the language bandied about to insult & shut down debate.

Last time I checked white people cannot transition to black people & vice versa.

Totally not the same debate.

It’s exactly the same debate. It’s about a majority discussing what’s best for a minority when the minority is in the best position to decide what’s good for them.

Women - ciswomen if you wish - are very much affected so they should be consulted on changes which impact them. "

The full term is not “ciswomen”, it’s “cisgendered” and all it means is that a person identifies as the gender they were born with, whether they are men or women.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

However in my experience when the debate is not going the way of the pro trans agenda TERF is the language bandied about to insult & shut down debate.

Last time I checked white people cannot transition to black people & vice versa.

Totally not the same debate.

It’s exactly the same debate. It’s about a majority discussing what’s best for a minority when the minority is in the best position to decide what’s good for them. "

It is totally not the same debate.

I’m not questioning a minority I’m not claiming to understand the lived life of a minority but I am asking for open honest debate where actions in the real world have a fundamental effect on women.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

In the trans community you may use those terms but I’m not trans and I object to being described as cis. I’m a woman end of.

You are 6ft tall there are very few women who are 6ft tall. There is a difference between trans women & biologically born women and it needs discussion with shouting down & sidelining of women. It does not mean I don’t accept you as a woman but it’s not as simple as that. 6.8’ in my platform heels and I can turn heads half a mile away x but you’re right I don’t pass well in public I get the is that a man or a woman comments a kid in the supermarket the other day said to her mom look at that tall lady which made me day but on the whole I’m happy being an older trans later woman

And I totally celebrate that you are happy & I’m sure you turn heads as you look great. But it is a nuanced debate..

But women do not have penises.. a trans woman can have a penis and may well be going through the journey not to have a penis..

No need to apologise for the waffle.. I’m interested in the hormonal side of things & totally open to discussion. Feel free to pm as I can’t pm you."
aww thank you have I got a woman filter block ? I will remove it as I love cis woman even though I’m jealous x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 14/04/22 23:08:55]

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By *UGGYBEAR2015Man
over a year ago

BRIDPORT

It’s exactly the same debate. It’s about a majority discussing what’s best for a minority when the minority is in the best position to decide what’s good for them. "

No, it's about a majority discussing what's best for a majority, the minority aren't getting what they want so they are just trying to shout everyone else down

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

However in my experience when the debate is not going the way of the pro trans agenda TERF is the language bandied about to insult & shut down debate.

Last time I checked white people cannot transition to black people & vice versa.

Totally not the same debate.

It’s exactly the same debate. It’s about a majority discussing what’s best for a minority when the minority is in the best position to decide what’s good for them.

Women - ciswomen if you wish - are very much affected so they should be consulted on changes which impact them.

The full term is not “ciswomen”, it’s “cisgendered” and all it means is that a person identifies as the gender they were born with, whether they are men or women. "

I think everyone on the thread knew what I meant

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

This is not a clear cut issue and deserves to be discussed and debated without insults thrown around."

Well said; sadly such abusive narcissistic misogynists, which 'transactivists' actually are, have no interest in polite discussion but think that it is their 'right' to shout down anyone who disagrees with them and dares to dispute their insane, irrational, anti-scientific dogma and to shriek abuse. It is ironic how totally unfeminine their own behaviour is.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

However in my experience when the debate is not going the way of the pro trans agenda TERF is the language bandied about to insult & shut down debate.

Last time I checked white people cannot transition to black people & vice versa.

Totally not the same debate.

It’s exactly the same debate. It’s about a majority discussing what’s best for a minority when the minority is in the best position to decide what’s good for them.

It is totally not the same debate.

Excuse me, the last time I checked, trans people were a minority. So yes, you ARE questioning a minority, you’re patronisingly discussing their lives like they’re not affected by your views. And how in the ever loving fuck does the existence of trans women have any effect on you as a woman? It doesn’t. Which is why you find yourself described as a terf so often. Although that’s not an accurate descriptive, as it only applies to feminists who have a problem with trans women and refuse to recognise them as women.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

It’s exactly the same debate. It’s about a majority discussing what’s best for a minority when the minority is in the best position to decide what’s good for them.

No, it's about a majority discussing what's best for a majority, the minority aren't getting what they want so they are just trying to shout everyone else down"
no trans people just want to be accepted in society and not used as political porns

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Iv got to say OP i been watching the last 5 or 6 of this kind of post you do and you seem to be outraged an awful lot about things i hope you find a way to control the cycling thingibob hopefully it calms you a little far from it x it’s just a current affairs issue ATM and I have access to what trans woman are saying through the groups I am in, I’m sorry if words like TERF cut deep just like conspiracy theorist or right wing left wing it’s all but labels x cut deep? Iv read it about 2 times in my life it another one of them crappy new age insults nobody understands but those in the know like going to spain and the bar staff are calling you all names under the sun and you think there being friendly it’s a good acronym to label the gender critical you have to agree "
not really its a coded insult so cowardly in my book and why is it so bad for people to be critical of things is that not how the world has become as open as it has become? Without criticism of things nothing at all would have changed in the last 100 years

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

This is not a clear cut issue and deserves to be discussed and debated without insults thrown around.

Do you believe in everything TRAs say, Mace? Do you think they're always reasonable?

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
over a year ago

Gilfach

"TERF ... it’s a good acronym to label the gender critical you have to agree "

Not really.

If I have slight doubts over whether trans women should compete in women's sports, labelling me 'trans exclusionary' seems to be going a little too far. Also, as a bald bearded bloke, describing me as a 'radical feminist' doesn't seem very appropriate.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Iv got to say OP i been watching the last 5 or 6 of this kind of post you do and you seem to be outraged an awful lot about things i hope you find a way to control the cycling thingibob hopefully it calms you a little far from it x it’s just a current affairs issue ATM and I have access to what trans woman are saying through the groups I am in, I’m sorry if words like TERF cut deep just like conspiracy theorist or right wing left wing it’s all but labels x cut deep? Iv read it about 2 times in my life it another one of them crappy new age insults nobody understands but those in the know like going to spain and the bar staff are calling you all names under the sun and you think there being friendly it’s a good acronym to label the gender critical you have to agree not really its a coded insult so cowardly in my book and why is it so bad for people to be critical of things is that not how the world has become as open as it has become? Without criticism of things nothing at all would have changed in the last 100 years "

It’s not a coded insult. It’s a descriptive. It stands for transexclusionary radical feminist. You clearly have very little understanding of the topic and appear to be jumping in with your two cents which is neither valid nor accurate. You sound like a cleaner trying to give an opinion on engineering. It’s not a good look.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

"TERF ... it’s a good acronym to label the gender critical you have to agree

Not really.

To be fair, you don't have to be female to be a feminist. My son would describe himself as a feminist.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Iv got to say OP i been watching the last 5 or 6 of this kind of post you do and you seem to be outraged an awful lot about things i hope you find a way to control the cycling thingibob hopefully it calms you a little far from it x it’s just a current affairs issue ATM and I have access to what trans woman are saying through the groups I am in, I’m sorry if words like TERF cut deep just like conspiracy theorist or right wing left wing it’s all but labels x cut deep? Iv read it about 2 times in my life it another one of them crappy new age insults nobody understands but those in the know like going to spain and the bar staff are calling you all names under the sun and you think there being friendly it’s a good acronym to label the gender critical you have to agree not really its a coded insult so cowardly in my book and why is it so bad for people to be critical of things is that not how the world has become as open as it has become? Without criticism of things nothing at all would have changed in the last 100 years

It's an insult. Don't bandy words around. Calling other people terfs knowing that it's seen by most people as an insult just means you can't debate.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Iv got to say OP i been watching the last 5 or 6 of this kind of post you do and you seem to be outraged an awful lot about things i hope you find a way to control the cycling thingibob hopefully it calms you a little far from it x it’s just a current affairs issue ATM and I have access to what trans woman are saying through the groups I am in, I’m sorry if words like TERF cut deep just like conspiracy theorist or right wing left wing it’s all but labels x cut deep? Iv read it about 2 times in my life it another one of them crappy new age insults nobody understands but those in the know like going to spain and the bar staff are calling you all names under the sun and you think there being friendly it’s a good acronym to label the gender critical you have to agree not really its a coded insult so cowardly in my book and why is it so bad for people to be critical of things is that not how the world has become as open as it has become? Without criticism of things nothing at all would have changed in the last 100 years

It's an insult. Don't bandy words around. Calling other people terfs knowing that it's seen by most people as an insult just means you can't debate. "

Until today, I didn’t even realise cis people had decided to be offended by the term. It’s like racists being offended at being called racist. Lol

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan
over a year ago

Gilfach

"To be fair, you don't have to be female to be a feminist."

True, but I'm pretty sure you need to be female to be a 'radical feminist'.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Iv got to say OP i been watching the last 5 or 6 of this kind of post you do and you seem to be outraged an awful lot about things i hope you find a way to control the cycling thingibob hopefully it calms you a little far from it x it’s just a current affairs issue ATM and I have access to what trans woman are saying through the groups I am in, I’m sorry if words like TERF cut deep just like conspiracy theorist or right wing left wing it’s all but labels x cut deep? Iv read it about 2 times in my life it another one of them crappy new age insults nobody understands but those in the know like going to spain and the bar staff are calling you all names under the sun and you think there being friendly it’s a good acronym to label the gender critical you have to agree not really its a coded insult so cowardly in my book and why is it so bad for people to be critical of things is that not how the world has become as open as it has become? Without criticism of things nothing at all would have changed in the last 100 years

It's an insult. Don't bandy words around. Calling other people terfs knowing that it's seen by most people as an insult just means you can't debate.

Until today, I didn’t even realise cis people had decided to be offended by the term. It’s like racists being offended at being called racist. Lol"

Then you haven't been paying attention

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Iv got to say OP i been watching the last 5 or 6 of this kind of post you do and you seem to be outraged an awful lot about things i hope you find a way to control the cycling thingibob hopefully it calms you a little far from it x it’s just a current affairs issue ATM and I have access to what trans woman are saying through the groups I am in, I’m sorry if words like TERF cut deep just like conspiracy theorist or right wing left wing it’s all but labels x cut deep? Iv read it about 2 times in my life it another one of them crappy new age insults nobody understands but those in the know like going to spain and the bar staff are calling you all names under the sun and you think there being friendly it’s a good acronym to label the gender critical you have to agree not really its a coded insult so cowardly in my book and why is it so bad for people to be critical of things is that not how the world has become as open as it has become? Without criticism of things nothing at all would have changed in the last 100 years

how did you guess my job

oh a descriptive that makes all the difference

when its thrown around as if it is an insult im going to assume it is one

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By *aitonelMan
over a year ago

Liverpool

I'd like Tom's version better

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

"To be fair, you don't have to be female to be a feminist.

True, but I'm pretty sure you need to be female to be a 'radical feminist'."

Probably but still not entirely impossible...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Screw 'em! The officials that make the decisions not the sponsors and people that withdraw support.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'd like Tom's version better"

Me too

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Out of curiosity, does anyone here arguing the tits over this topic that they clearly don’t really understand know what a SWERF is?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I agree with you all x I’m just upset about what’s happening to public opinion and how Norris is using this as a way of attracting votes is ok for the trans woman that can pass perfectly well and live in stealth but the ones waiting for surgery’s and don’t pass like myself is very unsettling

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Out of curiosity, does anyone here arguing the tits over this topic that they clearly don’t really understand know what a SWERF is?"
not a single clue no doubt another coded insult disguised as something else

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I have seen a few reference recently about the TRANS debate but am not enlightened.

Can someone explain (without bias)what the arguments are on this topic?

Keen to understand more without referring to media sources?

Maybe a different slant here on the back of the above great no nonsense description.

How long to the effects/physical advantages of Testosterone last post op?

Are they always elevated or do the levels drop over time?

How long does the muscle mass (gained from being male) take to reduce?

I know from my previous readings of sports doping that all competitors have a biological passport which shows any deviations of hormone levels.

Is there a defined level of testosterone that the female competitors need to be under? absolutely British cycling say you must be under 5nmol/L I currently have balls and I’m 0.4 nmol/L and muscle atrophy takes place quickly you lose 10/20 % of your previous strength, I think this case the trans woman rider had only started hrt in February "

How quickly do you lose the muscle? As a man who goes to they gym i would say i am easily 50% stronger than most females. If i lost 20% strength then still way above the average from birth women.

Ken not to get drawing into the whole naming/terminology here but do you not think that they may well be and advantage here physical;y over birth women?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

However in my experience when the debate is not going the way of the pro trans agenda TERF is the language bandied about to insult & shut down debate.

Last time I checked white people cannot transition to black people & vice versa.

Totally not the same debate.

It’s exactly the same debate. It’s about a majority discussing what’s best for a minority when the minority is in the best position to decide what’s good for them.

It is totally not the same debate.

There are clashes between women's rights and trans rights. So, yes cis women like myself and Virginia are affected. What would be nice is if the issues could be discussed and debated without attacks and insults.

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town

It’s exactly the same debate. It’s about a majority discussing what’s best for a minority when the minority is in the best position to decide what’s good for them.

No, it's about a majority discussing what's best for a majority, the minority aren't getting what they want so they are just trying to shout everyone else down"

Don't the women who the trans women are competing against have any say in the matter then? Or can the only people to comment be trans women on this debate? Doesn't seem terribly inclusive. People are interested. Surely that's a good thing.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Out of curiosity, does anyone here arguing the tits over this topic that they clearly don’t really understand know what a SWERF is?"

Apart from the genius who doesn’t know what is actually going on…

SWERF is an acronym for sex worker exclusionary radical feminist. SWERF’s don’t believe sex workers should be allowed to exist because they cater to men’s carnal desires. TERF is an acronym to describe a discriminatory group of people, just like SWERF is an acronym to describe a discriminatory group of people. Bigots, in other words. If you believe that sex workers should have rights, and that trans people should have rights (like competing in sports ffs), then you’ve inserted yourself as a victim into a debate that doesn’t affect you in any way whatsoever and successfully and hypocritically drawn attention away from the fact that certain minorities are simply fighting for their rights.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I have seen a few reference recently about the TRANS debate but am not enlightened.

Can someone explain (without bias)what the arguments are on this topic?

Keen to understand more without referring to media sources?

Maybe a different slant here on the back of the above great no nonsense description.

How long to the effects/physical advantages of Testosterone last post op?

Are they always elevated or do the levels drop over time?

How long does the muscle mass (gained from being male) take to reduce?

I know from my previous readings of sports doping that all competitors have a biological passport which shows any deviations of hormone levels.

Is there a defined level of testosterone that the female competitors need to be under?"

It is not even just about testosterone it is about body size, hands size, height, bone density and skill development and much more than just a test. All of the above is all an advantage of being a male pre transition to drop your testosterone.

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By *ellhungvweMan
over a year ago

Cheltenham

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"There are clashes between women's rights and trans rights. So, yes cis women like myself and Virginia are affected. What would be nice is if the issues could be discussed and debated without attacks and insults. "

Where are the clashes? How exactly does a trans woman’s rights clash with your own?! WE’RE ALL GODDAMN WOMEN. Jesus fucking Christ. What is so hard to understand about that?

If you don’t want to be insulted, don’t be insulting. Simple.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

However in my experience when the debate is not going the way of the pro trans agenda TERF is the language bandied about to insult & shut down debate.

Last time I checked white people cannot transition to black people & vice versa.

Totally not the same debate.

It’s exactly the same debate. It’s about a majority discussing what’s best for a minority when the minority is in the best position to decide what’s good for them.

It is totally not the same debate.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Where are the clashes? How exactly does a trans woman’s rights clash with your own?! WE’RE ALL GODDAMN WOMEN. Jesus fucking Christ. What is so hard to understand about that?

If you don’t want to be insulted, don’t be insulting. Simple. "

Ah. So not able to discuss and debate without insults and attacks then. Imagine my surprise.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Out of curiosity, does anyone here arguing the tits over this topic that they clearly don’t really understand know what a SWERF is?

Apart from the genius who doesn’t know what is actually going on…

Thanks for coming to my TED talk. "
because putting people in groups with little code named always works in getting them to see your way if thinking for clarity i dont care one way or another its not part of my 6 foot world in that world you want to describe people you dont like you just call em a cunt or a prick not snidey little names when chances are they have no clue what your on about to begin with

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By *aitonelMan
over a year ago

Liverpool

Angry angry hippos!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Said my part im outta here

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By *hetalkingstoveMan
over a year ago

London

Disappointing number of terfs in this thread I see

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I apologise if I’ve offended anyone by using insulting terminology i’m trying to rally love and support in public opinion for my trans sisters and brothers that don’t pass very well like me x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Several years ago, there was massive debate over a woman called Caster Semenya. She is an intersex running athlete who won her races. She was born with male and female parts and she ultimately lost her prize (if I recall correctly) because she of the way she was born. She wasn’t even trans. Most of her competitors were pissed that she won because of an advantage she was born with and had no control over. If memory serves, she was told she had to chemically alter her biology in order to compete in future races. Which she didn’t want to do as a matter of principle. And I don’t blame her. She won fair and square.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I apologise if I’ve offended anyone by using insulting terminology i’m trying to rally love and support in public opinion for my trans sisters and brothers that don’t pass very well like me x "
not offended at all im just trying to get my head around things i dont understand is all its all good like i said i just thought it was like the snowflake hater thing is all

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

However in my experience when the debate is not going the way of the pro trans agenda TERF is the language bandied about to insult & shut down debate.

Last time I checked white people cannot transition to black people & vice versa.

Totally not the same debate.

It’s exactly the same debate. It’s about a majority discussing what’s best for a minority when the minority is in the best position to decide what’s good for them.

It is totally not the same debate.

Trans people may be a minority but there is a bandwagon like yourself which is vocal and vitriolic. I have many trans friends and understand the journey they go through from male to female and female to male. However this debate has been hijacked by a few.

I’m not naive and understand the world and how this is going to pan out and it actually affects the true trans debate.

As a woman we have fought hard for our rights and it’s still not equal. The trans debate and the issue of self Id is going to shatter our progress. True trans women are not the issue but self I’d is a huge issue.

Man who had failed in in the male world suddenly declares himself a woman and everyone for fear of offending holds the doors wide open for him to scale the top of the female world..

Womens shortlists occupied by unsuccessful men in dresses. Failed sportsmen suddenly succeeding in womens sports..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Disappointing number of terfs in this thread I see

Would you please quote something I said that you think is anti-trans?

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By *ed VoluptaWoman
over a year ago

Wirral.

Mace, I would argue that all you're doing is trying to stir up trouble where there is none.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I imagine FAB is pretty inclusive on the whole to the trans community.

Throwing insults is likely only going to alienate folk who are unsure or, like me, ignorant but willing to understand.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Similar anyway^

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Thank you for that, Mace. Very much appreciated.

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By *dwalu2Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

However in my experience when the debate is not going the way of the pro trans agenda TERF is the language bandied about to insult & shut down debate.

Last time I checked white people cannot transition to black people & vice versa.

Totally not the same debate.

It’s exactly the same debate. It’s about a majority discussing what’s best for a minority when the minority is in the best position to decide what’s good for them.

It is totally not the same debate.

I’m not naive and understand the world and how this is going to pan out and it actually affects the true trans debate.

Man who had failed in in the male world suddenly declares himself a woman and everyone for fear of offending holds the doors wide open for him to scale the top of the female world..

Womens shortlists occupied by unsuccessful men in dresses. Failed sportsmen suddenly succeeding in womens sports..

Sure, you sound like a genuine ally!

The mask always slips.

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By *ellhungvweMan
over a year ago

Cheltenham

"I apologise if I’ve offended anyone by using insulting terminology i’m trying to rally love and support in public opinion for my trans sisters and brothers that don’t pass very well like me x

Mace, I would argue that all you're doing is trying to stir up trouble where there is none.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I imagine FAB is pretty inclusive on the whole to the trans community.

Throwing insults is likely only going to alienate folk who are unsure or, like me, ignorant but willing to understand.

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By *aitonelMan
over a year ago

Liverpool

"Disappointing number of terfs in this thread I see

Nope, just woman wanting to have an actual discussion. True discussion, without the bullshit of hiding behind acronyms and total meltdown tantrums thrown around which tends to happen when the ability to debate and rationalise is met with accusations and insults on knee jerk reactions. Generally comes along with absolutes, extremes, and unwillingness to see any other side but your own narrative whatever that may be.

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By *UGGYBEAR2015Man
over a year ago

BRIDPORT

" If you believe that sex workers should have rights, and that trans people should have rights (like competing in sports ffs), then you’ve inserted yourself as a victim into a debate that doesn’t affect you in any way whatsoever and successfully and hypocritically drawn attention away from the fact that certain minorities are simply fighting for their rights.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk. "

Could you explain the above sentence for me.

I've read it several times and can't fathom it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Where are the clashes? How exactly does a trans woman’s rights clash with your own?! WE’RE ALL GODDAMN WOMEN. Jesus fucking Christ. What is so hard to understand about that?

If you don’t want to be insulted, don’t be insulting. Simple.

Ah. So not able to discuss and debate without insults and attacks then. Imagine my surprise. "

And no answer to my question because apparently “insults and attacks” are the bigger issue. Imagine MY surprise at having a valid question go unanswered because tHe BiG baD biTcH oN tHe INteRnet SaiD MeAn tHiNgs To mE

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Disappointing number of terfs in this thread I see

Thank you

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

However in my experience when the debate is not going the way of the pro trans agenda TERF is the language bandied about to insult & shut down debate.

Last time I checked white people cannot transition to black people & vice versa.

Totally not the same debate.

It’s exactly the same debate. It’s about a majority discussing what’s best for a minority when the minority is in the best position to decide what’s good for them.

It is totally not the same debate.

I’m not naive and understand the world and how this is going to pan out and it actually affects the true trans debate.

Man who had failed in in the male world suddenly declares himself a woman and everyone for fear of offending holds the doors wide open for him to scale the top of the female world..

Womens shortlists occupied by unsuccessful men in dresses. Failed sportsmen suddenly succeeding in womens sports..

Sadly all too true. Please remember that vitriolic and egotistical transactivists are by no means representative of all transgender people.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

This is not a clear cut issue and deserves to be discussed and debated without insults thrown around."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I have seen a few reference recently about the TRANS debate but am not enlightened.

Can someone explain (without bias)what the arguments are on this topic?

Keen to understand more without referring to media sources?

Maybe a different slant here on the back of the above great no nonsense description.

How long to the effects/physical advantages of Testosterone last post op?

Are they always elevated or do the levels drop over time?

How long does the muscle mass (gained from being male) take to reduce?

I know from my previous readings of sports doping that all competitors have a biological passport which shows any deviations of hormone levels.

Is there a defined level of testosterone that the female competitors need to be under?

I get most of that except the skill element. That is surely irrespective of gender.

Keen for a trans argument perspective on my testosterone and pre-women body development queries.

This discussion should surely be science/fact based and not emotional?

If no advantage physically then all for it.

If there is an advantage then it is unfair.

Yes/No?

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

Caster Semenya has XY chromosomes and internal testes. She lacks a uterus and ovaries also. Whilst she appears to have external "female" genitalia, what she actually has is has 5-alpha reductase deficiency (5ARD), a genetic disorder where male sexual development fails in utero, resulting in a pseudovagina. This is actually an under developed set of "male" genitals.

The male testes form from the same tissue that become female ovaries and the scrotal sac is essentially fused together labial tissue. What becomes the vaginal canal and clitoris in females develops as an external appendage in males, with a sensitive head/tip.

Please note I am not passing any judgement, but sharing the facts about her [Caster Semenya].

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By *ellhungvweMan
over a year ago

Cheltenham

"Sadly all too true. Please remember that vitriolic and egotistical transactivists are by no means representative of all transgender people."

The sad thing is that they are the ones that everyone hears and people assume they are speaking for the whole community.

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By *ed VoluptaWoman
over a year ago

Wirral.

"Sadly all too true. Please remember that vitriolic and egotistical transactivists are by no means representative of all transgender people.

The sad thing is that they are the ones that everyone hears and people assume they are speaking for the whole community."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Where are the clashes? How exactly does a trans woman’s rights clash with your own?! WE’RE ALL GODDAMN WOMEN. Jesus fucking Christ. What is so hard to understand about that?

If you don’t want to be insulted, don’t be insulting. Simple.

Ah. So not able to discuss and debate without insults and attacks then. Imagine my surprise.

I won't engage further with someone who can't control themselves.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I have seen a few reference recently about the TRANS debate but am not enlightened.

Can someone explain (without bias)what the arguments are on this topic?

Keen to understand more without referring to media sources?

And a large number of them still keep the penises.

No one is banning or suggesting banning trans women from women's sports. Play in the category which aligns with your biological sex. The male category.

And it goes way beyond your test level. Your entire body and physiology, having gone through male puberty,is completely different.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Please note I am not passing any judgement, but sharing the facts about her [Caster Semenya]. "
wow that’s so fascinating thank you x

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I have seen a few reference recently about the TRANS debate but am not enlightened.

Can someone explain (without bias)what the arguments are on this topic?

Keen to understand more without referring to media sources?

And a large number of them still keep the penises.

No one is banning or suggesting banning trans women from women's sports. Play in the category which aligns with your biological sex. The male category.

And it goes way beyond your test level. Your entire body and physiology, having gone through male puberty,is completely different."
that’s why it’s important to diagnose gender dysphoria before puberty

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Please note I am not passing any judgement, but sharing the facts about her [Caster Semenya]. "

Aka intersex

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You don't pass well.

And that's me 3/4 of a bottle of wine down and not wearing my good specs.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I have seen a few reference recently about the TRANS debate but am not enlightened.

Can someone explain (without bias)what the arguments are on this topic?

Keen to understand more without referring to media sources?

And a large number of them still keep the penises.

No one is banning or suggesting banning trans women from women's sports. Play in the category which aligns with your biological sex. The male category.

And it goes way beyond your test level. Your entire body and physiology, having gone through male puberty,is completely different."

Oh sure. Throw someone who was born male and is transitioning to female in with a bunch of alpha blokes. Sounds like a great idea.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Please note I am not passing any judgement, but sharing the facts about her [Caster Semenya]. "

You are actually just googling to be fair. Its a quote and not fact/

If correct or not i am not sure.

My queries/questions and scientific understanding all my own.

A proper debate needed here without reference to google.

Surely we are all intelligent enough to have one?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I apologise if I’ve offended anyone by using insulting terminology i’m trying to rally love and support in public opinion for my trans sisters and brothers that don’t pass very well like me x

You don't pass well.

And that's me 3/4 of a bottle of wine down and not wearing my good specs."

Wow. Bitch much?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I have seen a few reference recently about the TRANS debate but am not enlightened.

Can someone explain (without bias)what the arguments are on this topic?

Keen to understand more without referring to media sources?

And a large number of them still keep the penises.

No one is banning or suggesting banning trans women from women's sports. Play in the category which aligns with your biological sex. The male category.

And it goes way beyond your test level. Your entire body and physiology, having gone through male puberty,is completely different.

Oh sure. Throw someone who was born male and is transitioning to female in with a bunch of alpha blokes. Sounds like a great idea.

Like Lia Thomas? Did you see those shoulders? Built like a fucking tank.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I apologise if I’ve offended anyone by using insulting terminology i’m trying to rally love and support in public opinion for my trans sisters and brothers that don’t pass very well like me x

You don't pass well.

And that's me 3/4 of a bottle of wine down and not wearing my good specs."

That was completely unnecessary.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I apologise if I’ve offended anyone by using insulting terminology i’m trying to rally love and support in public opinion for my trans sisters and brothers that don’t pass very well like me x

You don't pass well.

And that's me 3/4 of a bottle of wine down and not wearing my good specs.

Wow. Bitch much? "

0 fucks given.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

Please note I am not passing any judgement, but sharing the facts about her [Caster Semenya].

Aka intersex"

Intersex is a very outdated term that is no longer used. The correct description would be 46, XY, DSD (DSD = difference of sexual development).

The form of DSD that Caster displays is one of a multitude of different forms. It would be completely inaccurate to put all differences of sexual development into the generic category of "intersex" because that would suggest that all intersex people have the same or similar presentation. They do not. Some with 47, XXY will have a vastly different presentation to someone with 46, XY and 5-alpha reductase deficiency.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I apologise if I’ve offended anyone by using insulting terminology i’m trying to rally love and support in public opinion for my trans sisters and brothers that don’t pass very well like me x

You don't pass well.

And that's me 3/4 of a bottle of wine down and not wearing my good specs.

Wow. Bitch much?

0 fucks given.

S’alright. Go do your make up, love. The grown ups are talking.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I apologise if I’ve offended anyone by using insulting terminology i’m trying to rally love and support in public opinion for my trans sisters and brothers that don’t pass very well like me x

You don't pass well.

And that's me 3/4 of a bottle of wine down and not wearing my good specs.

That was completely unnecessary. "

I'm tired of the pandering to be completely honest.

The OP made a statement about passing.

I don't think they do.

Makes no statement about their worth or right to dress and live as they like. I simply do not think they look like a woman.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

Please note I am not passing any judgement, but sharing the facts about her [Caster Semenya].

You are actually just googling to be fair. Its a quote and not fact/

If correct or not i am not sure.

My queries/questions and scientific understanding all my own.

A proper debate needed here without reference to google.

Surely we are all intelligent enough to have one?"

No, I'm not just Googling. I've read the Court of Arbitration for Sport report in detail and I teach biology (hence my interest). I want to be in possession of the right information if and when I am asked questions by students, when I teach about the human reproductive system and associated structures.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I apologise if I’ve offended anyone by using insulting terminology i’m trying to rally love and support in public opinion for my trans sisters and brothers that don’t pass very well like me x

You don't pass well.

And that's me 3/4 of a bottle of wine down and not wearing my good specs.

Wow. Bitch much?

0 fucks given.

S’alright. Go do your make up, love. The grown ups are talking. "

Try harder.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Where are the clashes? How exactly does a trans woman’s rights clash with your own?! WE’RE ALL GODDAMN WOMEN. Jesus fucking Christ. What is so hard to understand about that?

If you don’t want to be insulted, don’t be insulting. Simple. "

Nope we are not all women.. there are as you state cisgendered women (translates as biologically born women) there are trans women (women who have gone on a journey from male to female.. and I don’t knock or disrespect that) and according to the current narrative there are bearded blokes who don a dress and declare that they are women so we all have to accept that.

And that’s the danger without discussion how to we actually narrow down what a woman is?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Please note I am not passing any judgement, but sharing the facts about her [Caster Semenya].

Aka intersex

Intersex is a very outdated term that is no longer used. The correct description would be 46, XY, DSD (DSD = difference of sexual development).

Google again!!!!

I tried, i failed, i give up.

Enjoy your future discussions.

Happy Eater all

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I apologise if I’ve offended anyone by using insulting terminology i’m trying to rally love and support in public opinion for my trans sisters and brothers that don’t pass very well like me x

You don't pass well.

And that's me 3/4 of a bottle of wine down and not wearing my good specs."
I’m glad you disagree x thank you

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Please note I am not passing any judgement, but sharing the facts about her [Caster Semenya].

Aka intersex

Intersex is a very outdated term that is no longer used. The correct description would be 46, XY, DSD (DSD = difference of sexual development).

As far as I’m aware, intersex is still a term used to indicate that a person has a bit of both. The degrees at which it presents are down to the doctors and those affected. Much like trans is a broad term used to describe a person who was born as one, and transitions to another - the biology of why they are trans is also relevant. Using layman’s terms simplifies it for the novices. Of which there are many.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

Please note I am not passing any judgement, but sharing the facts about her [Caster Semenya].

Aka intersex

Intersex is a very outdated term that is no longer used. The correct description would be 46, XY, DSD (DSD = difference of sexual development).

Google again!!!!

I tried, i failed, i give up.

Enjoy your future discussions.

Happy Eater all

How do you know what my academic background is? I have NOT Googled any of the above, thank you very much indeed! I spend my professional life teaching biology to international students, so kindly stop assuming.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

You see everything is about perspective x We all stand in a puddle of our own truth I think I did a thread about that a few days ago

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Please note I am not passing any judgement, but sharing the facts about her [Caster Semenya].

Aka intersex

Intersex is a very outdated term that is no longer used. The correct description would be 46, XY, DSD (DSD = difference of sexual development).

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

You are right that intersex is used by laypeople and by some patients groups. However in professional circles, they've moved away from the umbrella term intersex largely, because of it being an umbrella term. There's more focus on the specific differences that each type of DSD presents with.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

This link, I DID Google

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Please note I am not passing any judgement, but sharing the facts about her [Caster Semenya].

Aka intersex

Intersex is a very outdated term that is no longer used. The correct description would be 46, XY, DSD (DSD = difference of sexual development).

Google again!!!!

I tried, i failed, i give up.

Enjoy your future discussions.

Happy Eater all

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By *ellhungvweMan
over a year ago

Cheltenham

Where are the clashes? How exactly does a trans woman’s rights clash with your own?! WE’RE ALL GODDAMN WOMEN. Jesus fucking Christ. What is so hard to understand about that?

If you don’t want to be insulted, don’t be insulting. Simple.

And that’s the danger without discussion how to we actually narrow down what a woman is?

It’s fairly easy to determine who the dudes donning dresses are. They’re the ones like Lucy who dress up at home but go to work in their boy clothes. They’re the ones who don’t actually make any effort to transition. Like Lucy. "

Do you get a kick out of bullying people?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

ANYWAY. It’s been a very long time since I got involved in a debate about identity politics. I can’t say it was any more fun than the last time.

Remember folks. No lives matter and we’re all gonna die in puddles of our own piss and shit regardless of who or what we are today.

Over and out.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Please note I am not passing any judgement, but sharing the facts about her [Caster Semenya].

Aka intersex

Intersex is a very outdated term that is no longer used. The correct description would be 46, XY, DSD (DSD = difference of sexual development).

Google again!!!!

I tried, i failed, i give up.

Enjoy your future discussions.

Happy Eater all

Ok. However, why does the style of your writing change significantly when you mention the scientific details?

I am dubious to be honest but accept your explanation.

The teaching of international students not relevant at all. Neither is my MSc in Biological Science or my PGCE

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Coming to the debate late here, but ....

It is appropriate to debate how to best integrate trans sports people into competitive sports. Sadly there isn't an answer that will satisfy all, and actually there probably isn't an answer that is equitable to all. Equitable and fair are not the same thing.

Is there a satisfactory answer on the biology/hormone/strength issue? Probably not yet. I am no scientist, I don't know the answer. It is a fact that the OP and issues surrounding it affect both the trans potential competitors AND the cisgendered. Both have every right to be considered.

Tho dicuss the issue openly and calmly, and even to disagree with some or even all of the points being discussed is not automatically trans exclusionary nor is it radical feminism.

I am sorry, but radical anything rarely presents an issue in the best light, nor does it help to bring parties together. That goes for radical feminists, radical trans activists, radical anything.

The trans sports issue is not anywhere near being resolved for a whole host of reasons most of them understandable reasons.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

Please note I am not passing any judgement, but sharing the facts about her [Caster Semenya].

Aka intersex

Intersex is a very outdated term that is no longer used. The correct description would be 46, XY, DSD (DSD = difference of sexual development).

Google again!!!!

I tried, i failed, i give up.

Enjoy your future discussions.

Happy Eater all

Ok. However, why does the style of your writing change significantly when you mention the scientific details?

I am dubious to be honest but accept your explanation.

The teaching of international students not relevant at all. Neither is my MSc in Biological Science or my PGCE"

My qualifications are extremely similar to yours. Would you like me to post a copy of my degree certificate?

Anyone from here who has met me will vouch for my credentials and my "style".

When I post on "rate my penis" or "what did you have for dinner" threads, inexplicably, my style might be different.

Not only do I teach biology but I manage a team of 20 science and engineering lecturers, spanning the full range of scientific and mathematical disciplines. Short of telling you my payroll number, I think that's quite enough detail.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Where are the clashes? How exactly does a trans woman’s rights clash with your own?! WE’RE ALL GODDAMN WOMEN. Jesus fucking Christ. What is so hard to understand about that?

If you don’t want to be insulted, don’t be insulting. Simple.

And that’s the danger without discussion how to we actually narrow down what a woman is?

So you clearly do not appreciate the ramifications of self ID and the wider effects on society. As you quote Dudes in dresses.. well fucking wake up.. Lucy the dude in a dress taking whose a shit writer but he wins first prize at the womens best author competition.. Lucy the dude in a dress is accessing the womens shelter to see the woman he r*ped do I need to go on about how self I’d can be abused by men.

You carry on with your right on cisgendered/pro trans/selfID narrative without rational discussion.

You have goaded and challenged everyone on this thread.. maybe you need to go away a think and be prepared to have a grown up discussion looking at all sides!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Please note I am not passing any judgement, but sharing the facts about her [Caster Semenya].

Aka intersex

Intersex is a very outdated term that is no longer used. The correct description would be 46, XY, DSD (DSD = difference of sexual development).

Google again!!!!

I tried, i failed, i give up.

Enjoy your future discussions.

Happy Eater all

Ok. However, why does the style of your writing change significantly when you mention the scientific details?

I am dubious to be honest but accept your explanation.

The teaching of international students not relevant at all. Neither is my MSc in Biological Science or my PGCE

My qualifications are extremely similar to yours. Would you like me to post a copy of my degree certificate?

Anyone from here who has met me will vouch for my credentials and my "style".

When I post on "rate my penis" or "what did you have for dinner" threads, inexplicably, my style might be different.

I just expect a reasoned debate.

I also have not had a scientific answer to my queries regarding testosterone, the levels pre and post op/transformation and muscle mass that is carried over into womens sport to make a level playing field

We can all manage. It is only admin. A lot of people om here will do.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Where are the clashes? How exactly does a trans woman’s rights clash with your own?! WE’RE ALL GODDAMN WOMEN. Jesus fucking Christ. What is so hard to understand about that?

If you don’t want to be insulted, don’t be insulting. Simple.

And that’s the danger without discussion how to we actually narrow down what a woman is?

You carry on with your right on cisgendered/pro trans/selfID narrative without rational discussion.

You have goaded and challenged everyone on this thread.. maybe you need to go away a think and be prepared to have a grown up discussion looking at all sides!"

What she said

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By *dwalu2Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

Where are the clashes? How exactly does a trans woman’s rights clash with your own?! WE’RE ALL GODDAMN WOMEN. Jesus fucking Christ. What is so hard to understand about that?

If you don’t want to be insulted, don’t be insulting. Simple.

And that’s the danger without discussion how to we actually narrow down what a woman is?

You carry on with your right on cisgendered/pro trans/selfID narrative without rational discussion.

You have goaded and challenged everyone on this thread.. maybe you need to go away a think and be prepared to have a grown up discussion looking at all sides!"

You’re not really in a position to ask people to have a grown up and rational discussion when your own ‘hypotheticals’ sound so ridiculous.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Where are the clashes? How exactly does a trans woman’s rights clash with your own?! WE’RE ALL GODDAMN WOMEN. Jesus fucking Christ. What is so hard to understand about that?

If you don’t want to be insulted, don’t be insulting. Simple.

And that’s the danger without discussion how to we actually narrow down what a woman is?

You carry on with your right on cisgendered/pro trans/selfID narrative without rational discussion.

You have goaded and challenged everyone on this thread.. maybe you need to go away a think and be prepared to have a grown up discussion looking at all sides!

You’re not really in a position to ask people to have a grown up and rational discussion when your own ‘hypotheticals’ sound so ridiculous."

How are my own hypotheticals ridiculous??

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

I just expect a reasoned debate.

We can all manage. It is only admin. A lot of people om here will do."

I haven't entered into any debate, presumably that has escaped your notice? I have only contributed to cite facts about Caster Semenya (which were not accurate in an earlier post that failed to highlight her internal testes and XY chromosomes).

I personally have then only replied to point out that the term "intersex" is a broad, laypersons term of limited meaning and then, I've replied to contradict your incessant belief that I am copy/pasting from Google.

Finally, I have not questioned your assertion that you hold certain academic qualifications. I have no evidence one way or the other. However, not only have you repeatedly insisted that I do not work in the profession I have twice or three times stated that I do, you've just taken another low blow by suggesting that a managerial role is by-the-by.

For the final time, I hold a degree in a biological science discipline. I hold a postgraduate teaching qualification. I teach level 3 and 4 General Biology, Physiology and Human Biology courses to international students and manage a science and engineering department.

Whether you choose to believe me or not, I couldn't care less, but kindly cease and desist from the low blows. At no point have I been anything other than cordial to you.

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By *dwalu2Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

Where are the clashes? How exactly does a trans woman’s rights clash with your own?! WE’RE ALL GODDAMN WOMEN. Jesus fucking Christ. What is so hard to understand about that?

If you don’t want to be insulted, don’t be insulting. Simple.

And that’s the danger without discussion how to we actually narrow down what a woman is?

You carry on with your right on cisgendered/pro trans/selfID narrative without rational discussion.

You have goaded and challenged everyone on this thread.. maybe you need to go away a think and be prepared to have a grown up discussion looking at all sides!

You’re not really in a position to ask people to have a grown up and rational discussion when your own ‘hypotheticals’ sound so ridiculous.

How are my own hypotheticals ridiculous??

Because to anyone reading them who is rational, they clearly are.

As you can’t see that, you’re simply proving the point.

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By *ellhungvweMan
over a year ago

Cheltenham

Where are the clashes? How exactly does a trans woman’s rights clash with your own?! WE’RE ALL GODDAMN WOMEN. Jesus fucking Christ. What is so hard to understand about that?

If you don’t want to be insulted, don’t be insulting. Simple.

And that’s the danger without discussion how to we actually narrow down what a woman is?

You carry on with your right on cisgendered/pro trans/selfID narrative without rational discussion.

You have goaded and challenged everyone on this thread.. maybe you need to go away a think and be prepared to have a grown up discussion looking at all sides!

You’re not really in a position to ask people to have a grown up and rational discussion when your own ‘hypotheticals’ sound so ridiculous.

How are my own hypotheticals ridiculous??

Because to anyone reading them who is rational, they clearly are.

As you can’t see that, you’re simply proving the point."

I personally think her position has been quite clear and coherent throughout this entire thread.

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By *dwalu2Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

Where are the clashes? How exactly does a trans woman’s rights clash with your own?! WE’RE ALL GODDAMN WOMEN. Jesus fucking Christ. What is so hard to understand about that?

If you don’t want to be insulted, don’t be insulting. Simple.

And that’s the danger without discussion how to we actually narrow down what a woman is?

You carry on with your right on cisgendered/pro trans/selfID narrative without rational discussion.

You have goaded and challenged everyone on this thread.. maybe you need to go away a think and be prepared to have a grown up discussion looking at all sides!

You’re not really in a position to ask people to have a grown up and rational discussion when your own ‘hypotheticals’ sound so ridiculous.

How are my own hypotheticals ridiculous??

Because to anyone reading them who is rational, they clearly are.

As you can’t see that, you’re simply proving the point.

I personally think her position has been quite clear and coherent throughout this entire thread."

That doesn’t make her hypotheticals any less ridiculous. It just suggests your judgement isn’t as acute as you imagine.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Where are the clashes? How exactly does a trans woman’s rights clash with your own?! WE’RE ALL GODDAMN WOMEN. Jesus fucking Christ. What is so hard to understand about that?

If you don’t want to be insulted, don’t be insulting. Simple.

And that’s the danger without discussion how to we actually narrow down what a woman is?

You carry on with your right on cisgendered/pro trans/selfID narrative without rational discussion.

You have goaded and challenged everyone on this thread.. maybe you need to go away a think and be prepared to have a grown up discussion looking at all sides!

You’re not really in a position to ask people to have a grown up and rational discussion when your own ‘hypotheticals’ sound so ridiculous.

How are my own hypotheticals ridiculous??

Because to anyone reading them who is rational, they clearly are.

As you can’t see that, you’re simply proving the point."

My hypotheticals are happening in real life..if you want to ignore that fine. I can give many examples of womens short lists etc..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I just expect a reasoned debate.

We can all manage. It is only admin. A lot of people om here will do.

Whether you choose to believe me or not, I couldn't care less, but kindly cease and desist from the low blows. At no point have I been anything other than cordial to you. "

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By *ellhungvweMan
over a year ago

Cheltenham

I personally think her position has been quite clear and coherent throughout this entire thread.

That doesn’t make her hypotheticals any less ridiculous. It just suggests your judgement isn’t as acute as you imagine."

Very possibly true. Or vice versa.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It’s an interesting debate, and started off with a topical issue. should transgender compete in chosen sex sport competitions?

I’d suggest no and here’s why, The male body naturally produces a higher level of testosterone, to that of the female form. and therefore muscle generation, regenerate is very different from each other. When this is applied to a sports activity, of which requires muscle groups to be utilized, it’s very much in the favour of the male form to the female form. The male body, can be built to generate and sustain a higher level of body mass of muscle to that of the female form.

I’m not suggesting transgender people should not compete, but i would suggest a category for such events and not band Transgender with their respective gender of choice.

Again, I’d suggest it’s not very fair on a female athlete who has trained to a high level and is competing, to then possibly loose to a Transgender male-to-female.

This is being seen more so in eight lifting, a male weight lifter didn’t win in his weight class and will not due to his size and bulk, so he decided to change sex, - now competes in the women’s devision, just to win!

How is this fair?

So, I’d suggest to extend the curtsy of a separate division, then everyone can be happy and win fairly.

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By *dwalu2Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

I personally think her position has been quite clear and coherent throughout this entire thread.

That doesn’t make her hypotheticals any less ridiculous. It just suggests your judgement isn’t as acute as you imagine.

Very possibly true."

Enlightenment is yours.

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By *ellhungvweMan
over a year ago

Cheltenham

I personally think her position has been quite clear and coherent throughout this entire thread.

That doesn’t make her hypotheticals any less ridiculous. It just suggests your judgement isn’t as acute as you imagine.

Very possibly true.

Enlightenment is yours."

You show your true colours with selective quoting.

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By *dwalu2Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

I personally think her position has been quite clear and coherent throughout this entire thread.

That doesn’t make her hypotheticals any less ridiculous. It just suggests your judgement isn’t as acute as you imagine.

Very possibly true.

Enlightenment is yours.

You show your true colours with selective quoting.

There’s no point wasting Fab’s server space with unnecessaries. We both know what you needed to say.

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By *ellhungvweMan
over a year ago

Cheltenham

I personally think her position has been quite clear and coherent throughout this entire thread.

That doesn’t make her hypotheticals any less ridiculous. It just suggests your judgement isn’t as acute as you imagine.

Very possibly true.

Enlightenment is yours.

You show your true colours with selective quoting.

There’s no point wasting Fab’s server space with unnecessaries. We both know what you needed to say."

Apology accepted.

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By *dwalu2Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

I personally think her position has been quite clear and coherent throughout this entire thread.

That doesn’t make her hypotheticals any less ridiculous. It just suggests your judgement isn’t as acute as you imagine.

Very possibly true.

Enlightenment is yours.

You show your true colours with selective quoting.

There’s no point wasting Fab’s server space with unnecessaries. We both know what you needed to say.

Apology accepted."

There’s that flawed judgement again! You probably just need a rest.

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By *ellhungvweMan
over a year ago

Cheltenham

I personally think her position has been quite clear and coherent throughout this entire thread.

That doesn’t make her hypotheticals any less ridiculous. It just suggests your judgement isn’t as acute as you imagine.

Very possibly true.

Enlightenment is yours.

You show your true colours with selective quoting.

There’s no point wasting Fab’s server space with unnecessaries. We both know what you needed to say.

Apology accepted.

There’s that flawed judgement again! You probably just need a rest."

I will bow to your superior understanding of flawed judgment. You are clearly an expert in the matter.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I would like to point out that this discussion is totally one sided..

It’s all about trans women and the fact that some women do actually in fact according to some have penises.

Where’s the some men have a vagina brigade..

where’s the vitriol because a f t m trans man has stepped into a sporting arena and completely outclassed the men he’s competing with?! Huh??

Oh maybe it’s because the ftm athlete was born a female and no matter how much testosterone he takes is not going to transform the previous form of 5’4. 9 stone person he was. He may bulk by 50lbs but he ain’t going to compete with the 6ft boys around him..

Let’s just ponder those biological differences!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

From a biologically born women's perspective i totally empathise (as a man and father of a daughter) the kick back here in terms of purely performance and level playing fields.

Women's sports have only recently (post 2012 Olympics) been on anywhere near an even keel.

Underrepresented, under financed, not taken seriously etc it has been a struggle for football, rugby, cricket, cycling and many other sports.

Just when there is anything nearing something like parity in terms of respect they are being hit with this debate.

Simple opinion - if an unfair advantage can be gained by being born a biological man initially then there needs to be a separate category in which to compete?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Womens cricket & football are going well finally and actually attracting crowds & sponsorship!

But with wrt to trans athletes there needs to be a third space just as there is for para Olympics. We do not put able bodied men & women against those who have lost limbs

We do not put Ellie Simmonds against a 6ft woman as that us not fair sport.

Same principle applies with trans sport.. create a 3rd space..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Womens cricket & football are going well finally and actually attracting crowds & sponsorship!

But with wrt to trans athletes there needs to be a third space just as there is for para Olympics. We do not put able bodied men & women against those who have lost limbs

We do not put Ellie Simmonds against a 6ft woman as that us not fair sport.

Same principle applies with trans sport.. create a 3rd space.."

I agree. The world is ready for this. It just need to be pushed forward.

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By *ellhungvweMan
over a year ago

Cheltenham

"Womens cricket & football are going well finally and actually attracting crowds & sponsorship!

But with wrt to trans athletes there needs to be a third space just as there is for para Olympics. We do not put able bodied men & women against those who have lost limbs

We do not put Ellie Simmonds against a 6ft woman as that us not fair sport.

Same principle applies with trans sport.. create a 3rd space..

I agree. The world is ready for this. It just need to be pushed forward.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

This is not a clear cut issue and deserves to be discussed and debated without insults thrown around."

It's not an 'open and honest discussion' at all and it's really disingenuous to call it that. Most anti-trans groups are also associated with the far-right, which isn't too surprising given the shared ideologies.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I would like to point out that this discussion is totally one sided..

It’s all about trans women and the fact that some women do actually in fact according to some have penises.

Where’s the some men have a vagina brigade..

where’s the vitriol because a f t m trans man has stepped into a sporting arena and completely outclassed the men he’s competing with?! Huh??

Let’s just ponder those biological differences!"

Caster Semenya has 'biological differences' too. Should she be banned?

Elite sports has never been a level playing field and it never will be. Just say you're a bigot who hates trans people and move on.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Peter Stanton has also pulled the funding on mens junior cycling his money his choice sone other right wing TERF company will step in no doubt "

With the growing popularity of tarmacing front gardens to make driveways for off street parking, is there much of a market for turf these days?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

This is not a clear cut issue and deserves to be discussed and debated without insults thrown around.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

This is not a clear cut issue and deserves to be discussed and debated without insults thrown around.

So as someone who has read a cohesive rational message has instantly marked me as anti trans and far right in the same post.. based on what.. stating on a public forum I think open discussion needs to be had.

This is the problem.. straight away you’ve stated I’m anti trans & far right based on knowing nothing about me or engaging in civilised debate. Oh and you blocked me from viewing your profile before I even posted a response. I actually have many trans friends and discuss this same topic…

Let’s talk about grown ups discussions one day maybe when you learn to have an open civilised discussion.

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By *olly_chromaticTV/TS
over a year ago

Stockport

"It’s an interesting debate, and started off with a topical issue. should transgender compete in chosen sex sport competitions?

I’m not suggesting transgender people should not compete, but i would suggest a category for such events and not band Transgender with their respective gender of choice.

Again, I’d suggest it’s not very fair on a female athlete who has trained to a high level and is competing, to then possibly loose to a Transgender male-to-female.

How is this fair?

So, I’d suggest to extend the curtsy of a separate division, then everyone can be happy and win fairly.

I humbly suggest that few cisgender males engaged in high level sporting events would choose to take chemical castration drugs that will totally destroy their sex life and/or have their balls amputated and penis surgically refashioned into a vagina (giving a break of at least six months in their training programme, for most of which it will be painful to even walk), merely so that they can compete in a lower division of their sport.

Absolutely nobody is proposing that any man would be able to just self-certify as female one day, compete as female the next, then certify back to male again the day after.

The current rules already state that a trans female athlete must show test results with testosterone levels far below the acceptable normal range of cis female athletes. This will inevitably have caused drastic and irreversible physiological changes in the trans woman even if there has been no surgical interventions - sterility, loss of muscle mass, inability to have an erection, loss of libido, reduced stamina.

The suggestion that a cis male would do this purely to win a lower level trophy is as ridiculous as suggesting that an able bodied person would deliberately have a leg amputated in order to become a beggar, or to blind themselves in order to qualify for the 50% discount on their television licence.

Yes there is some sensible debate that could occur around the field of transgender people competing in sports; however that is not what has been happening over the last five years. The existing rules have been in place for over twenty years with little if any controversy resulting, and almost zero voices raised in the trans community. The raising of voices was started by a concerted alliance of anti-transgender pressure groups, backed by right wing politics and wealthy repressive religous organisations, who are the ones seeking to demonise trans people. Largely the voices raised in return from those in the trans community are just people fighting to retain their existing rights.

The discussion is not balanced or fair. Newspapers like the Daily Mail make front-page attacks on trans people purely to increase their sales. Politicians adopt an anti-trans stance simply to gain votes from those that have been made angry by the newspapers. Anti-feminist groups back the politicians, using trans people as a wedge issue towards their end game of attacking women's sexual and reproductive rights. Religious organisations give money to anti-feminist groups with the aim of rolling back sexual freedoms by 400 years.

If there are to be changes in the rules surrounding transgender participation in sports, these should be debated by the sporting bodies, taking proper measured advice from medical authorities, and tempered with intentions of all-round fairness and concern over minority groups. They should certainly not be driven by tabloid headlines and government ministers trying to distract attention from their own disgraceful activities.

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By *agneto.Man
over a year ago

Bham

"Out of curiosity, does anyone here arguing the tits over this topic that they clearly don’t really understand know what a SWERF is?

Apart from the genius who doesn’t know what is actually going on…

Thanks for coming to my TED talk. "

Absolute nonsense. We might well get rid of democracy then as we won't be able to view a manifesto and reach a conclusion because everything in there won't all apply to us so we can't have an opinion on it, otherwise we're drawing attention away from the certain minorities that it does affect.

People can have opinions on societal issues that don't personally involve them as they are part of society and so in fact, it does actually effect them.

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

wokingham

As much as it’s a topic I feel strongly about, I’ve come to accept that as a guy it doesn’t effect me or the highest level of sports. The best sports in the world and 99% of world records is gonna be man’s doing

Sadly women, this is on you now. If your happy to let trans people compete against you, have at it. If your not? Get labelled a transphobe and get over it.

It’s sad it’s got to that point, but luckily I have the privilege of just washing my hands with it and saying I don’t care enough about womens sports to be called every name under the sun to defend them

Sorry female athletes. Best of luck to you

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By *arlomaleMan
over a year ago

darlington

"Peter Stanton has also pulled the funding on mens junior cycling his money his choice sone other right wing TERF company will step in no doubt "
just wondering why you didn’t mention that he pulled the sponsor money for the mens junior as well

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Please note I am not passing any judgement, but sharing the facts about her [Caster Semenya].

Aka intersex

Intersex is a very outdated term that is no longer used. The correct description would be 46, XY, DSD (DSD = difference of sexual development).

Google again!!!!

I tried, i failed, i give up.

Enjoy your future discussions.

Happy Eater all

Ok. However, why does the style of your writing change significantly when you mention the scientific details?

I am dubious to be honest but accept your explanation.

The teaching of international students not relevant at all. Neither is my MSc in Biological Science or my PGCE"

Go and do your own research. Other people on this thread have. You want a debate without knowing a damn thing about the topic.

You've also been really rude to Mrs KC - there was no need to undermine the validity of what she's said.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

This is not a clear cut issue and deserves to be discussed and debated without insults thrown around.

There has been no evidence presented that groups like Fair Play for Women have any funding from the right. It's just a lazy trope to say that.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"As much as it’s a topic I feel strongly about, I’ve come to accept that as a guy it doesn’t effect me or the highest level of sports. The best sports in the world and 99% of world records is gonna be man’s doing

Sadly women, this is on you now. If your happy to let trans people compete against you, have at it. If your not? Get labelled a transphobe and get over it.

Sorry female athletes. Best of luck to you

And this is a huge part of the problem.. women are being massively impacted and men refuse to get involved in the debate.

It may not affect you directly but there will be many people around you it will affect.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Absolutely nobody is proposing that any man would be able to just self-certify as female one day, compete as female the next, then certify back to male again the day after.

Polly, why are you calling women's sports a lower division?

I don't think there has been enough research into the impact of transition on sporting ability - very few studies exist. But if there is still significant physiological advantage that is not tempered by transition (as suggested by some research) - that matters. There may not be a solution that is fair and equal for all and sporting bodies will have to choose.

British Cycling changed their minds largely because cisgender riders threatened to pull out so how was it driven by headlines and ministers? Their own riders protested and they listened and hopefully they will do some more research, debate and listen to both sides.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I would like to point out that this discussion is totally one sided..

It’s all about trans women and the fact that some women do actually in fact according to some have penises.

Where’s the some men have a vagina brigade..

where’s the vitriol because a f t m trans man has stepped into a sporting arena and completely outclassed the men he’s competing with?! Huh??

Let’s just ponder those biological differences!

Caster Semenya has 'biological differences' too. Should she be banned?

Elite sports has never been a level playing field and it never will be. Just say you're a bigot who hates trans people and move on."

Caster Semenya has a DSD (Intersex) - nothing to do with trans. Those with DSD have frequently asked not to be involved in these debates. Resorting to name calling and "no debate" isn't helpful.

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By *irthandgirthMan
over a year ago

Camberley occasionally doncaster

Sadly women, this is on you now. If your happy to let trans people compete against you, have at it. If your not? Get labelled a transphobe and get over it.

Sorry female athletes. Best of luck to you

And this is a huge part of the problem.. women are being massively impacted and men refuse to get involved in the debate.

It may not affect you directly but there will be many people around you it will affect."

I think men step back and don't get involved for fear of backlash. It's a no win situation for us -we are either transphobes or white knighting.

To address an earlier point (without copy and pasting).. there have been occasions where men have identified as women to win competitions. Zuby did it for deadlifting is one example.

I will say that I remember a time on the forums where if someone stated that they were uncomfortable with a term which they found insulting (like TERF) then there would be some kind of.. what's the word.. apology.. and dammit the other thing.. oh yeah, respect and that term wouldn't continue to be used.

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By *lansmanMan
over a year ago

Sheffield

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

This is not a clear cut issue and deserves to be discussed and debated without insults thrown around."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It’s an interesting debate, and started off with a topical issue. should transgender compete in chosen sex sport competitions?

I’m not suggesting transgender people should not compete, but i would suggest a category for such events and not band Transgender with their respective gender of choice.

Again, I’d suggest it’s not very fair on a female athlete who has trained to a high level and is competing, to then possibly loose to a Transgender male-to-female.

How is this fair?

So, I’d suggest to extend the curtsy of a separate division, then everyone can be happy and win fairly.

Absolutely nobody is proposing that any man would be able to just self-certify as female one day, compete as female the next, then certify back to male again the day after.

Firstly stop with the if you want to debate this topic you’re anti trans & you’re clearly a right wing daily mail reader.. that is not the case. The trans rules on sport may have been here for years but until recently there were no high profile trans sportswomen.

As for men changing gender one day to secure a win in as you say ‘lower level sport’ (because that’s not offensive) I agree not likely to be prevalent in the western world but we will see an increase in trans women taking top level places in womens sport…

but you have seen how the Russians & Chinese operate.. it’s not inconceivable that they will use trans women to their advantage on the international sporting field. These are the same people that pumped young girls full of testosterone & put them in hard core training camps from a young age.

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By *eavenscentitCouple
over a year ago

barnstaple

"TERF is a description used frequently and bandied about as a way to describe women who want to have an open and honest debate about a changing landscape.

Wanting to discuss this as a woman does not make us TERFs it’s aggressive language used to cancel and shut down honest open discussion by people who are only interested in one point of view.

However in my experience when the debate is not going the way of the pro trans agenda TERF is the language bandied about to insult & shut down debate."

This

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

....

My hypotheticals are happening in real life..if you want to ignore that fine. I can give many examples of womens short lists etc.."

Sorry, are you suggesting a person would self ID as a woman in order to increase their chances of winning a literary competition?

I understand the sport issue, in certain sports men, on average, perform at a higher level - you only need to look at world records to see this. I wasn't aware though that women on average wrote literature to a lower standard than men? Is it really a problem if a trans woman wins in the women's category of a writing competition? Do they have an unfair advantage?

Also, there seems to be a lot of talk about make abusers transitioning in order to get more victims but I have not seen any evidence that this is an actual problem - this may just be my lack of awareness so I'm happy to be corrected.

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