FabSwingers.com forum: Non-Binary

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I was out shopping today and I went into a shop to have a browse, I seen something I was going to buy as a birthday gift for a relative, the woman who was on the floor asked if I needed help so I told her I wanted to buy the gift and I asked her if they could gift wrap it so she went off to wrap it.

So I went to the counter and her collegue asked if I needed any assistance and I reply "no thanks, your collegue served me she's just gift wrapping it for me" and the look of disgust I got she told me that they don't want to be referred in that way and she then pointed to a sign which actually states that, I don't remember what it said exactly but something along the lines of how the staff want referred as 'they'.

I don't really have an opinion on it all but regardless I genuinely didn't see the sign or I would've respected their wish however they can't get so offended over getting called she,because lets be honest 90% of people don't even know what Non-binary is.

Whatcha think?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think that unless theres a clear sign or something saying they don’t want to be referred as something you should be forgiven for doing so until told otherwise.

If you continue after being told otherwise(don’t know if you did)then you ate the bad person in this scenario

I would just refer to people as they from now when talking about strangers its not that difficult.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I didn't continue I apolagised and told them that I didn't see the sign which I honestly didn't, It's just habbit of saying he and she that's all.

I just feel they need to be aware that not everyone will understand your life choices.

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By *asterR and slut mayaMan
over a year ago

Bradford

Well according to Google

Binary

Abjective

1. Relating to, composed of ,or involeing two things .

2. Relating to ,using „or denoting a

System of numerical notions that

Has 2 rather than 10 as a base

Noune

1.the binary system of notation

The device is counting in binary

2. Something having two parts .

So none binary must be one

Therefore not they .

Like you I don't understand all these new terms people choose to call themselves .but at the end of the day its up to them .

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By *echnosonic_BrummieMan
over a year ago

Willenhall

"lets be honest 90% of people don't even know what Non-binary is.

Hexadecimal?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I didn't continue I apolagised and told them that I didn't see the sign which I honestly didn't, It's just habbit of saying he and she that's all.

I just feel they need to be aware that not everyone will understand your life choices."

Didn’t think you did just saying as a general rule.Don’t have enough info on your case.

Suppose you’re right won’t deny sone people are a bit uptight about it.Just bear in mind they’ve probably received judgement from family for years already though.

Still shouldn’t affect the way you treat them though if someone wants to be called something its no different to asking to be called by their last name in my opinion.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I was out shopping today and I went into a shop to have a browse, I seen something I was going to buy as a birthday gift for a relative, the woman who was on the floor asked if I needed help so I told her I wanted to buy the gift and I asked her if they could gift wrap it so she went off to wrap it.

Whatcha think?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I always respect peoples choices, It doesn't matter what my views are on it, it was a 5 minute encounter so 'she' or 'they' would make no difference to me. It was the way they acted over a mistake that most people would've made.

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By *uby StarCouple
over a year ago

Durham

I think the world's gone mad. Talk about an over reaction on their part.

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By *aunchy RaccoonsCouple
over a year ago

Exeter

The world has gone completely mad with this sort if stuff.

What's next...People moaning because someone referred to their Dog as a Dog and not a Cat that it apparently wants to be.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I always respect peoples choices, It doesn't matter what my views are on it, it was a 5 minute encounter so 'she' or 'they' would make no difference to me. It was the way they acted over a mistake that most people would've made."

Because being a victim now means power. That's why there's the victim Olympics. The more oppressed you claim to be the more sympathy you'll get. Its pathetic to be quite honest.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If they want the sign to be seen clearly then they need to have it at an average eye level, not above heads, or on the shop door or behind the counter again at eye level.

What shop was it?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If they want the sign to be seen clearly then they need to have it at an average eye level, not above heads, or on the shop door or behind the counter again at eye level.

What shop was it? "

Or they could stop making things up and seek therapy?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I never judge and whatever people choose to identify as is fine by me.

I would suggest they judged you just because you didn't see a sign!

Also I don't understand the pronouns thing where people are referring to their own. He/him.... Is this so that people don't refer to them in the wrong way?

It is all very confusing.

Ginge

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I never judge and whatever people choose to identify as is fine by me.

I would suggest they judged you just because you didn't see a sign!

Also I don't understand the pronouns thing where people are referring to their own. He/him.... Is this so that people don't refer to them in the wrong way?

It is all very confusing.

Ginge"

It's a load of cobblers is what it is.

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By *echnosonic_BrummieMan
over a year ago

Willenhall

"I never judge and whatever people choose to identify as is fine by me.

I identify as your creator, your deity, the supreme being...

Is that cool with you? I mean, I obviously don't need your permission or anything...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I never judge and whatever people choose to identify as is fine by me.

I identify as your creator, your deity, the supreme being...

Is that cool with you? I mean, I obviously don't need your permission or anything...

You crack on!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Ok, so, binary gender is male or female. Some people feel they identify as either both or neither of those binaries. It has nothing to do with what genitals you have. To simplify this for those that don't understand this fact; if a man loses his penis and testicles, does he automatically become female?

I think people need to think less about what they see as the norm and realise that non-binary gender has actually been a thing for thousands of years, going back to the Hindus in 400bc.

As for yourself, you did right in apologising and saying that you did not see the signage. Perhaps it could be used as a learning experience?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think it is WAY more difficult with non binary because unless they specifically tell you upfront how they want to be referred, they are bound to be “misgendered”

Because generally speaking, non binary don’t really go on hormones and change completely their exterior to change their gender.

It happens, you just didn’t know the situation and the person who looked in disgust, should be a bit ashamed that they pointed it out in such a way.

Most trans I know, tend to take being “misgendered” pretty well (unless it’s done obviously in a way that the other person is being rude and refuses to) and that potentially they need to work harder (if they want to) in order not to be misgendered any longer x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm unary.

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By *licia_2021TV/TS
over a year ago

Ashby De La Zouch

[Removed by poster at 02/04/22 07:11:56]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

2. Something having two parts .

So none binary must be one

Therefore not they .

Non binary doesn't mean one. It means other than having two parts.

They is quite grammatically correct where gender is not known, I.e, "A person walked down the road. They turned left at the end."

However.

The whole non binary debate is a minefield. Better understanding and patience on both sides of the fence is required, which to be fair is true for pretty much everything!

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By *licia_2021TV/TS
over a year ago

Ashby De La Zouch

Jordan Peterson would have a field day on this

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By *ellinever70Woman
over a year ago

Ayrshire

Are you sure it was a look of disgust?

Or does that just make for a better story?

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

"I never judge and whatever people choose to identify as is fine by me.

I would suggest they judged you just because you didn't see a sign!

Also I don't understand the pronouns thing where people are referring to their own. He/him.... Is this so that people don't refer to them in the wrong way?

It is all very confusing.

Ginge

It's a load of cobblers is what it is."

How on earth does using a preferred term when speaking to or about someone affect you in any way?

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By *tephTV67TV/TS
over a year ago

Cheshire

They put up a sign telling their customers to refer to their staff in non binary terms.

Which shop as the Daily Mail would love this ….and the comment section ?

A customer is given a dressing down over it ?

Yesterday was April 1st, you sure you never read this and believed it ?

Sorry this doesn’t sit right with me

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

2. Something having two parts .

So none binary must be one

Therefore not they .

Non binary doesn't mean one. It means other than having two parts.

They is quite grammatically correct where gender is not known, I.e, "A person walked down the road. They turned left at the end."

However.

The whole non binary debate is a minefield. Better understanding and patience on both sides of the fence is required, which to be fair is true for pretty much everything!"

Urgh why has fab not added a "like" button yet?

This is me liking your comment.

But also, a lot of NB people wear badges with "they/them" on it, these days, to mitigate misgendering. Alas, there are some people who get irate about being misgendered, and this comes right across the spectrum, from cis people right through to genderless. I think that the best thing is to just refer to people as "they/them" till a pronoun is made apparent. Alas, you will always get idiots who believe that "in my day we didn't have all this non-binary stuff", even though it has been around longer than Christianity, bullshit, and they feel like their view is the right one and fuck everyone else. That comes simply down to the fact that they just don't want to change their mind on something and believe their view is gospel (for lack of a better term). It's sad, but at least they're presenting themselves as people to be given a wide berth due to their own ignorance

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"They put up a sign telling their customers to refer to their staff in non binary terms.

Which shop as the Daily Mail would love this ….and the comment section ?

A customer is given a dressing down over it ?

Yesterday was April 1st, you sure you never read this and believed it ?

Sorry this doesn’t sit right with me

If this turns out to be true, it would be a hilarious stumble for the more ignorant

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By *G LanaTV/TS
over a year ago

Gosport

Whatcha think?

Regardless of what you have choosen to beleive you are wrong. Even if you you don't want to accept peoples right to choose there are a whole host of medical conditions that cause intersex characteristics. From the Intersex Society of North America:

Not XX and not XY one in 1,666 births

Klinefelter (XXY) one in 1,000 births

Androgen insensitivity syndrome one in 13,000 births

Partial androgen insensitivity syndrome one in 130,000 births

Classical congenital adrenal hyperplasia one in 13,000 births

Late onset adrenal hyperplasia one in 66 individuals

Vaginal agenesis one in 6,000 births

Ovotestes one in 83,000 births

Idiopathic (no discernable medical cause) one in 110,000 births

Iatrogenic (caused by medical treatment, for instance progestin administered to pregnant mother) no estimate

5 alpha reductase deficiency no estimate

Mixed gonadal dysgenesis no estimate

Complete gonadal dysgenesis one in 150,000 births

Hypospadias (urethral opening in perineum or along penile shaft) one in 2,000 births

Hypospadias (urethral opening between corona and tip of glans penis) one in 770 births

Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female one in 100 births

Total number of people receiving surgery to “normalize” genital appearance one or two in 1,000 births

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By *appycouple300Couple
over a year ago

North Dorset

Whatcha think?

Totally agree. World has gone mad.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think it is WAY more difficult with non binary because unless they specifically tell you upfront how they want to be referred, they are bound to be “misgendered”

Because generally speaking, non binary don’t really go on hormones and change completely their exterior to change their gender.

It happens, you just didn’t know the situation and the person who looked in disgust, should be a bit ashamed that they pointed it out in such a way.

Yeah agree it is difficult

Just have to bear in mind the amount of stuff non binary people have to go through with their families over their decision to identify

And also bear in mind a lot of people are obsessed with essentially misgendering them why you would want to that I don’t know but it probably happened to them so many times that they were just ready to snap at the next person.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

look of disgust I got she told me that they don't want to be referred in that way and she then pointed to a sign which actually states that, I don't remember what it said exactly but something along the lines of how the staff want referred as 'they'.

I’d have said I want to be referred to to as the customer who is paying your fucking wages wind your neck in.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think it is WAY more difficult with non binary because unless they specifically tell you upfront how they want to be referred, they are bound to be “misgendered”

Because generally speaking, non binary don’t really go on hormones and change completely their exterior to change their gender.

It happens, you just didn’t know the situation and the person who looked in disgust, should be a bit ashamed that they pointed it out in such a way.

Yeah agree it is difficult

Just have to bear in mind the amount of stuff non binary people have to go through with their families over their decision to identify

Obviously I’m not saying it is easy or right.

I’m just saying that a clear cut presentation makes it easier to not wrongly misgender somebody because naturally we can make a judgement on whether somebody is a man or a woman according to how they present and second sex characteristics etc.

With non binary we might perceive something, and obviously get it wrong (reality is we can’t know if somebody doesn’t feel either or both), but it’s probably not done maliciously most of the times.

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By *tephTV67TV/TS
over a year ago

Cheshire

"They put up a sign telling their customers to refer to their staff in non binary terms.

Which shop as the Daily Mail would love this ….and the comment section ?

A customer is given a dressing down over it ?

Yesterday was April 1st, you sure you never read this and believed it ?

Sorry this doesn’t sit right with me

If this turns out to be true, it would be a hilarious stumble for the more ignorant"

It’s very vague story

what shop Tesco or some little craft shop ?

What did the sign say ?

Where was the sign displayed ?

They put up a sign for just the one staff member or are there several non binary staff working there ?

Is it the owner of the shop who’s non binary ?

Or is this just another story found in some newspapers with very little truth around it, to yet again demonise anyone who appears a bit different ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think it is WAY more difficult with non binary because unless they specifically tell you upfront how they want to be referred, they are bound to be “misgendered”

Because generally speaking, non binary don’t really go on hormones and change completely their exterior to change their gender.

It happens, you just didn’t know the situation and the person who looked in disgust, should be a bit ashamed that they pointed it out in such a way.

Yeah agree it is difficult

Just have to bear in mind the amount of stuff non binary people have to go through with their families over their decision to identify

Obviously I’m not saying it is easy or right.

Absolutely agree I’ve gotten it wrong and gotten chewed out but on the flip side have seen people go out if their way to aggravate them.

Just think it was more circumstances which both parties can be forgiven for in the incident OP mentioned.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I’d have said I want to be referred to to as the customer who is paying your fucking wages wind your neck in. "

Well, someone just fully decided to push a bit of self importance on someone else. The best part of this is it coming from a trans person. Of anyone who I would expect to be confused by gender confusion, I would not expect it to be someone who is trans. May I suggest you go back into your mind, take out all the times someone has called you he/him when you have been clearly dressed and presenting as a woman? You might want to wind your neck in on this, because you are being a massive hypocrite.

Incidentally I won't be replying to your comments on this, because I think you have proven yourself to be who you are already, and no amount of arguing is going to change that

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By *hoirCouple
over a year ago

Clacton/Bury St. Edmunds

Surely referring to yourself as non-binary means the others are binary and thus are creating a new binary system...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Surely referring to yourself as non-binary means the others are binary and thus are creating a new binary system...

Binary is denoted as being one or the other. It comes from the latin for two (Bini/binarous). In more modern context, it relates to coding, being that 0 is off and 1 is on. In the grand scheme of things, non binary feel they fit into the space between 0 and 1, or not at all. This really is not a new concept, since the Hindus coined practically this 2600 years ago. It's just a thing that the fans of Piers Morgan can get rules up by, so they choose out of their own free will to do so, thus expending more energy than it would just to simply accept something that is older than their local church and get on with their lives.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Are you sure it was a look of disgust?

Or does that just make for a better story?"

Are you sure any of it happened at all?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Whatcha think?

Not XX and not XY one in 1,666 births

Klinefelter (XXY) one in 1,000 births

Androgen insensitivity syndrome one in 13,000 births

Partial androgen insensitivity syndrome one in 130,000 births

Classical congenital adrenal hyperplasia one in 13,000 births

Late onset adrenal hyperplasia one in 66 individuals

Vaginal agenesis one in 6,000 births

Ovotestes one in 83,000 births

Idiopathic (no discernable medical cause) one in 110,000 births

Iatrogenic (caused by medical treatment, for instance progestin administered to pregnant mother) no estimate

5 alpha reductase deficiency no estimate

Mixed gonadal dysgenesis no estimate

Complete gonadal dysgenesis one in 150,000 births

Hypospadias (urethral opening in perineum or along penile shaft) one in 2,000 births

Hypospadias (urethral opening between corona and tip of glans penis) one in 770 births

Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female one in 100 births

Total number of people receiving surgery to “normalize” genital appearance one or two in 1,000 births

Those with DSD (Differences in sex development) have absolutely nothing to do with non-binary/gender/trans issues. In fact members of that group have repeatedly asked not to be used as some sort of gotcha. (Previously known as Intersex but that term isn't one that should be used anymore - as I understand it).

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By *ev and TrevCouple
over a year ago

cardiff

"I never judge and whatever people choose to identify as is fine by me.

I would suggest they judged you just because you didn't see a sign!

Also I don't understand the pronouns thing where people are referring to their own. He/him.... Is this so that people don't refer to them in the wrong way?

It is all very confusing.

Ginge"

It's to normalise it. If the only people who state their pronouns are trans/non binary then it's obvious to all. Where as if everyone starts their preferred pronouns it becomes something nobody really thinks of any more and less of a big deal.

I hope this makes sense

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think pronoun badges will become more common to help people be referred to the way they want to be. Until we’re less assuming maybe as a society at least.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I’d have said I want to be referred to to as the customer who is paying your fucking wages wind your neck in.

Incidentally I won't be replying to your comments on this, because I think you have proven yourself to be who you are already, and no amount of arguing is going to change that"

Not at all. I don’t expect anyone to talk to me a specific way. I treat people with respect and ask the same by return. I don’t wear a sign around my neck demanding it.

It’s nothing to do with gender or non binary etc it’s telling people how to refer to someone else. Ask by all means. We are all entitled to ask. We are not entitled to tell.

And it was the staff who initiated a negative tone and shouldn’t be surprised if they get one in return. From me at least. It’s not hypocritical to expect that respect goes both ways or no ways.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Surely referring to yourself as non-binary means the others are binary and thus are creating a new binary system...

Also there is a lot of "there is 72 genders now" talk. No, there isn't. There is just 72 terms relating to gender. The same way as a wheel can be called a circle. There aren't multiple circles or wheels out there wishing to be referred to as .....….... There are just different names for wheels

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I never judge and whatever people choose to identify as is fine by me.

I would suggest they judged you just because you didn't see a sign!

Also I don't understand the pronouns thing where people are referring to their own. He/him.... Is this so that people don't refer to them in the wrong way?

It is all very confusing.

Ginge

I hope this makes sense

I don't declare pronouns because I don't feel I have a gender. Just a sex. If asked, I just say I'm happy with anything. I don't believe people should have to use pronouns if they don't wish to.

I do refer to people by the pronouns they've indicated they prefer online and in person - because that's just polite. One of my kids has a lot of friends with different pronouns and who have changed names. I do my best to keep up but "they" is safe if I can't recall! It's become easier over time.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

Which shop was this?

I sure would like to support businesses that support underrepresented groups

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I never judge and whatever people choose to identify as is fine by me.

I would suggest they judged you just because you didn't see a sign!

Also I don't understand the pronouns thing where people are referring to their own. He/him.... Is this so that people don't refer to them in the wrong way?

It is all very confusing.

Ginge

I hope this makes sense

I don't declare pronouns because I don't feel I have a gender. Just a sex. If asked, I just say I'm happy with anything. I don't believe people should have to use pronouns if they don't wish to.

I do think it's important to mention that some companies are twatbags and don't let their staff wear badges on their shirts, though. Because "it puts off customers"

Yeah right, like someone with a badge/tattoo/piercing is going to stop anyone shopping at their place of sales

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I’d have said I want to be referred to to as the customer who is paying your fucking wages wind your neck in.

Incidentally I won't be replying to your comments on this, because I think you have proven yourself to be who you are already, and no amount of arguing is going to change that

Not at all. I don’t expect anyone to talk to me a specific way. I treat people with respect and ask the same by return. I don’t wear a sign around my neck demanding it.

It’s nothing to do with gender or non binary etc it’s telling people how to refer to someone else. Ask by all means. We are all entitled to ask. We are not entitled to tell.

And it was the staff who initiated a negative tone and shouldn’t be surprised if they get one in return. From me at least. It’s not hypocritical to expect that respect goes both ways or no ways.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

It was a small craft shop but i'm not going to give the name as it wouldn't be fair nor do i want to break some sort of law.

People are entitled to do what they want , I just see it as any other sign to he honest. It was just the short fuse they have over it all.

It's not something that affects me so i don't educate myself on it

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I never judge and whatever people choose to identify as is fine by me.

I would suggest they judged you just because you didn't see a sign!

Also I don't understand the pronouns thing where people are referring to their own. He/him.... Is this so that people don't refer to them in the wrong way?

It is all very confusing.

Ginge

I hope this makes sense

I don't declare pronouns because I don't feel I have a gender. Just a sex. If asked, I just say I'm happy with anything. I don't believe people should have to use pronouns if they don't wish to.

Generally that’s the norm. I don’t go around declaring my pronouns either and I get referred to correctly as she/her

It only is said by those people who have to, because they might (still) not be perceived correctly

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By *atnip make me purrWoman
over a year ago

Reading

This is so not a story. You made a mistake. You apologised. Game over.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It was a small craft shop but i'm not going to give the name as it wouldn't be fair nor do i want to break some sort of law.

People are entitled to do what they want , I just see it as any other sign to he honest. It was just the short fuse they have over it all.

It's not something that affects me so i don't educate myself on it "

Ah yes, the great right wing argument. "It isn't my problem, so why should I care?". Can't wait for anything to become your problem, because frankly, the voices shouting "you had your chance a long time ago" shouting at you will be deafening

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It was a small craft shop but i'm not going to give the name as it wouldn't be fair nor do i want to break some sort of law.

People are entitled to do what they want , I just see it as any other sign to he honest. It was just the short fuse they have over it all.

It's not something that affects me so i don't educate myself on it

Is there a need to be aggressive when making your points?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It was a small craft shop but i'm not going to give the name as it wouldn't be fair nor do i want to break some sort of law.

People are entitled to do what they want , I just see it as any other sign to he honest. It was just the short fuse they have over it all.

It's not something that affects me so i don't educate myself on it

Is there a need to be aggressive when making your points?"

Apparently, stupidity says there is

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By *yron69Man
over a year ago

Fareham

I’d have left her to it and shopped elsewhere.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It was a small craft shop but i'm not going to give the name as it wouldn't be fair nor do i want to break some sort of law.

People are entitled to do what they want , I just see it as any other sign to he honest. It was just the short fuse they have over it all.

It's not something that affects me so i don't educate myself on it

Is there a need to be aggressive when making your points?"

I suggest you read the poem "first they came...."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I never judge and whatever people choose to identify as is fine by me.

I would suggest they judged you just because you didn't see a sign!

Also I don't understand the pronouns thing where people are referring to their own. He/him.... Is this so that people don't refer to them in the wrong way?

It is all very confusing.

Ginge

It's a load of cobblers is what it is."

You're way too angry about this, especially when it doesn't affect you

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It was a small craft shop but i'm not going to give the name as it wouldn't be fair nor do i want to break some sort of law.

People are entitled to do what they want , I just see it as any other sign to he honest. It was just the short fuse they have over it all.

It's not something that affects me so i don't educate myself on it

Is there a need to be aggressive when making your points?

Apparently, stupidity says there is"

That's a very negative way to approach interactions with other people. Personally I think one can make a point without putting others down. You may find your aggression means that people may avoid you on and off the forum in future. I certainly will.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It was a small craft shop but i'm not going to give the name as it wouldn't be fair nor do i want to break some sort of law.

People are entitled to do what they want , I just see it as any other sign to he honest. It was just the short fuse they have over it all.

It's not something that affects me so i don't educate myself on it

Is there a need to be aggressive when making your points?

Apparently, stupidity says there is"

Don't put yourself down.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Whatcha think?

Some how I don't think it was a look of disgust, how ever if it was then its an over reaction.

Like others has said, you made a mistake, you apologised.

There was no need to make this thread about it unless you wanted to try and cause tension and dry attention to the non binary community

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It was a small craft shop but i'm not going to give the name as it wouldn't be fair nor do i want to break some sort of law.

People are entitled to do what they want , I just see it as any other sign to he honest. It was just the short fuse they have over it all.

It's not something that affects me so i don't educate myself on it

Is there a need to be aggressive when making your points?

I suggest you read the poem "first they came....""

I have. Still no need for aggression.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It was a small craft shop but i'm not going to give the name as it wouldn't be fair nor do i want to break some sort of law.

People are entitled to do what they want , I just see it as any other sign to he honest. It was just the short fuse they have over it all.

It's not something that affects me so i don't educate myself on it

Is there a need to be aggressive when making your points?

Apparently, stupidity says there is

Don't put yourself down."

It's what I do best

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'd make sure I shopped elsewhere in future.

Wonder how they would respond to someone who is visually impaired, would miss the sign and therefore go by the individual's voice.

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By *ovebjsMan
over a year ago

Bristol

thers an easy way out of it

Just say colleague

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Whatcha think?

Some how I don't think it was a look of disgust, how ever if it was then its an over reaction.

Like others has said, you made a mistake, you apologised.

There was no need to make this thread about it unless you wanted to try and cause tension and dry attention to the non binary community "

If I wanted to try and cause tension i would've worded it a lot different.

They want to be understood but they're the least understanding.

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By *ovebjsMan
over a year ago

Bristol

It is all nonsence mind and they have probaly been forced into the situation by a member of staff who wants to stand out and be different.

(puts tin hat on)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It was a small craft shop but i'm not going to give the name as it wouldn't be fair nor do i want to break some sort of law.

People are entitled to do what they want , I just see it as any other sign to he honest. It was just the short fuse they have over it all.

It's not something that affects me so i don't educate myself on it

Is there a need to be aggressive when making your points?

I suggest you read the poem "first they came...."

I have. Still no need for aggression. "

There is every need, when people belligerently decide that they are going to appose something that they would quite frankly welcome people being marched into "camps" over. Think that these people would not want these people "re-educating"? I feel you need to look at the people who are saying "this is the world gone mad" a bit more. What starts out as "a simple view on tradition" snowballs into "these people should be locked away". It's alright saying "no need for this aggression", but that is bloody one sided and it's funny how the left ends up being demonised as aggressive, while the right get away with such talk if "this ain't right" and "they should be taught that they are wrong". Being a centrist is basically opening the gate for right wing beliefs that spiral out if control

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By *emorefridaCouple
over a year ago

La la land

Whatcha think?

I think that a lot has been read into a look. How do you know it was disgust? How do you know it wasn't concern from a colleague who was worried how their friend would feel? That person then told you their preferred pronoun's. I genuinely can't see the story to honest.

I prefer to go by Dr rather than Mrs, is there that much uproar as there is on this thread because of that?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"thers an easy way out of it

Just say colleague

You’re ruining it for everyone with your logic and common sense

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By *emorefridaCouple
over a year ago

La la land

"thers an easy way out of it

Just say colleague

Quite agree or just use they in general. At work as we are so ethnically diverse it's not always easy to know when seeing names what their gender is. Been doing it for decades it hasn't been a difficult thing to do.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Whatcha think?

Not XX and not XY one in 1,666 births

Klinefelter (XXY) one in 1,000 births

Androgen insensitivity syndrome one in 13,000 births

Partial androgen insensitivity syndrome one in 130,000 births

Classical congenital adrenal hyperplasia one in 13,000 births

Late onset adrenal hyperplasia one in 66 individuals

Vaginal agenesis one in 6,000 births

Ovotestes one in 83,000 births

Idiopathic (no discernable medical cause) one in 110,000 births

Iatrogenic (caused by medical treatment, for instance progestin administered to pregnant mother) no estimate

5 alpha reductase deficiency no estimate

Mixed gonadal dysgenesis no estimate

Complete gonadal dysgenesis one in 150,000 births

Hypospadias (urethral opening in perineum or along penile shaft) one in 2,000 births

Hypospadias (urethral opening between corona and tip of glans penis) one in 770 births

Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female one in 100 births

Total number of people receiving surgery to “normalize” genital appearance one or two in 1,000 births

Intersex has absolutely nothing to do with non-binary.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It was a small craft shop but i'm not going to give the name as it wouldn't be fair nor do i want to break some sort of law.

People are entitled to do what they want , I just see it as any other sign to he honest. It was just the short fuse they have over it all.

It's not something that affects me so i don't educate myself on it

Is there a need to be aggressive when making your points?

I suggest you read the poem "first they came...."

I have. Still no need for aggression.

I think when people start being aggressive it means they don't know how to debate. I am not demonising the left as aggressive. I'm on the left. I am saying YOU are being aggressive and that's not how you change minds. It's not how you get people to rethink issues. It just means people will see you coming and label you/avoid you.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Whatcha think?

Some how I don't think it was a look of disgust, how ever if it was then its an over reaction.

Like others has said, you made a mistake, you apologised.

There was no need to make this thread about it unless you wanted to try and cause tension and dry attention to the non binary community

If I wanted to try and cause tension i would've worded it a lot different.

They want to be understood but they're the least understanding."

Well it's been a great filter thread if nothing else

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By *ockosaurusMan
over a year ago

Warwick

"Well according to Google

Binary

Abjective

1. Relating to, composed of ,or involeing two things .

2. Relating to ,using „or denoting a

System of numerical notions that

Has 2 rather than 10 as a base

Noune

1.the binary system of notation

The device is counting in binary

2. Something having two parts .

So none binary must be one

Therefore not they .

Like you I don't understand all these new terms people choose to call themselves .but at the end of the day its up to them ."

Look up the definition of 'they'

It includes:

"Used to refer to a person of unspecified gender. "ask a friend if they could help" "

They / their is also singular, and has been since at least the 1300's, it's not a new thing.

By using he / she for others, people are just assuming their gender. It's just as easy using they, but does take time to adjust and not everyone is aware, so the response by the shop workers does seem quite rude.

They should have educated, rather than taken offence.

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By *immyinreadingMan
over a year ago

henley on thames

"Ok, so, binary gender is male or female. Some people feel they identify as either both or neither of those binaries. It has nothing to do with what genitals you have. To simplify this for those that don't understand this fact; if a man loses his penis and testicles, does he automatically become female?

I think people need to think less about what they see as the norm and realise that non-binary gender has actually been a thing for thousands of years, going back to the Hindus in 400bc.

As for yourself, you did right in apologising and saying that you did not see the signage. Perhaps it could be used as a learning experience?"

To me, adding more and more words, titles, terms and names in the area of gender and sexuality is a mistake. None of it actually matters to me, I either like someone or I don’t, I either get in with them or I don’t, I either fancy them or I don’t … and it has nothing to do with their gender or sexuality.

I find it odd that sexual and gender fluidity initiatives actually mean MORE constraints and pigeonholing rather than just letting people get in with their lives, free of labels.

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By *tephTV67TV/TS
over a year ago

Cheshire

"It was a small craft shop but i'm not going to give the name as it wouldn't be fair nor do i want to break some sort of law.

People are entitled to do what they want , I just see it as any other sign to he honest. It was just the short fuse they have over it all.

It's not something that affects me so i don't educate myself on it "

Why not name the shop, what law is stopping you ?

Whereabouts was this sign you missed ?

There’s plenty of people on here who believe your story. It also adds to the narrative that non binary people or their colleagues are rude and disrespectful. That an honest mistake (if this actually really happened) will be met with ‘a look of disgust’ and a sign pointed out to you.

Obviously if this sign was so easily missed this would happen quite regularly, so the staff will be that rude to a lot of their customers or were they just having a bad day, either way it doesn’t seem to be a good way to run a business does it ?

It’s a shame that these stories are believed immediately, that maybe if true, the reality was completely different.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think people need to think less about what they see as the norm and realise that non-binary gender has actually been a thing for thousands of years, going back to the Hindus in 400bc.

As for yourself, you did right in apologising and saying that you did not see the signage. Perhaps it could be used as a learning experience?

I find it odd that sexual and gender fluidity initiatives actually mean MORE constraints and pigeonholing rather than just letting people get in with their lives, free of labels. "

The fact that this comment is directly below a comment stating that they/their (a whole fucking one term for people who don't identify as he/she), is fucking hilarous

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By *immyinreadingMan
over a year ago

henley on thames

"It was a small craft shop but i'm not going to give the name as it wouldn't be fair nor do i want to break some sort of law.

People are entitled to do what they want , I just see it as any other sign to he honest. It was just the short fuse they have over it all.

It's not something that affects me so i don't educate myself on it

Is there a need to be aggressive when making your points?

I suggest you read the poem "first they came...."

I have. Still no need for aggression.

That’s a really sad and one-eyed assessment … ther someone who is politically moderate / centrist is opening the door for right wing beliefs to spiral out of control.

There is nothing wrong with the middle ground, and political discourse would be much healthier if we liked away from the extremes rather than rushing towards them as you suggest.

Polarisation is not good

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It was a small craft shop but i'm not going to give the name as it wouldn't be fair nor do i want to break some sort of law.

People are entitled to do what they want , I just see it as any other sign to he honest. It was just the short fuse they have over it all.

It's not something that affects me so i don't educate myself on it

Why not name the shop, what law is stopping you ?

Whereabouts was this sign you missed ?

It’s a shame that these stories are believed immediately, that maybe if true, the reality was completely different.

Regardless of how the OP felt he was treated, it would be a dick move to name a small craft shop on here and possibly mean folk end up getting a hard time.

I wouldn't find it hard to believe that someone would go out of their way to deliberately make a non binary or trans person feel bad by not using the pronouns they were asked to because some people can be arseholes. And I'm firmly on the other side of the debate. Why is it so hard to believe that a non binary person, or someone who supported them, could also be an arsehole.

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By *eavenscentitCouple
over a year ago

barnstaple

"I think pronoun badges will become more common to help people be referred to the way they want to be. Until we’re less assuming maybe as a society at least. "

Maybe we should all be referred to as people/they/them, it feels a bit more inclusive.

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By *ighty_tightyMan
over a year ago

Norfolk/Suffolk

"I think pronoun badges will become more common to help people be referred to the way they want to be. Until we’re less assuming maybe as a society at least. "

Why should anyone have to advertise? Jews and yellow stars?

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By *immyinreadingMan
over a year ago

henley on thames

I think people need to think less about what they see as the norm and realise that non-binary gender has actually been a thing for thousands of years, going back to the Hindus in 400bc.

As for yourself, you did right in apologising and saying that you did not see the signage. Perhaps it could be used as a learning experience?

I find it odd that sexual and gender fluidity initiatives actually mean MORE constraints and pigeonholing rather than just letting people get in with their lives, free of labels.

The fact that this comment is directly below a comment stating that they/their (a whole fucking one term for people who don't identify as he/she), is fucking hilarous"

Good.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think pronoun badges will become more common to help people be referred to the way they want to be. Until we’re less assuming maybe as a society at least.

Maybe we should all be referred to as people/they/them, it feels a bit more inclusive. "

I think it’s a good idea. I support inclusivity.

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By *immyinreadingMan
over a year ago

henley on thames

"I think pronoun badges will become more common to help people be referred to the way they want to be. Until we’re less assuming maybe as a society at least.

Maybe we should all be referred to as people/they/them, it feels a bit more inclusive.

I think it’s a good idea. I support inclusivity. "

To me, we have better inclusivity when we get away from names, words, badges, categorisations.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think pronoun badges will become more common to help people be referred to the way they want to be. Until we’re less assuming maybe as a society at least.

Why should anyone have to advertise? Jews and yellow stars?"

Not the same thing at all. But I understand the sentiment about having to advertise. It was a suggestion- I know a lot of people that wear pronoun badges to avoid being misgendered and it helps them in many ways.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It was a small craft shop but i'm not going to give the name as it wouldn't be fair nor do i want to break some sort of law.

People are entitled to do what they want , I just see it as any other sign to he honest. It was just the short fuse they have over it all.

It's not something that affects me so i don't educate myself on it

Why not name the shop, what law is stopping you ?

Whereabouts was this sign you missed ?

It’s a shame that these stories are believed immediately, that maybe if true, the reality was completely different.

Regardless of how the OP felt he was treated, it would be a dick move to name a small craft shop on here and possibly mean folk end up getting a hard time.

Simply because; "I have been asked to do something that very mildly changes my every day behaviour". Think of it as the same as "well there is a. Recycle bin right next to the bin I put my plastic bottles in, but fucked if I am moving my hand all of two foot to that direction, just to help the rest of society, because well this inconveniences me right here right now"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think pronoun badges will become more common to help people be referred to the way they want to be. Until we’re less assuming maybe as a society at least.

Maybe we should all be referred to as people/they/them, it feels a bit more inclusive.

I think it’s a good idea. I support inclusivity.

To me, we have better inclusivity when we get away from names, words, badges, categorisations. "

I get what you mean. But I don’t think that’s actually true otherwise people wouldn’t wear pronoun badges at all and people wouldn’t be misgendered?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I have nothing against any of it at all, I'm an open minded person.

I'm covered in tattoos and as much as people say discrimination against them isn't there anymore it is, fair enough not as bad as it once was but it definitley still is there, but I don't take it out on the world do I.

If im in the wrong here with my mistake and not the manner in which i was looked and spoken to like then that's a problem.

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By *ellinever70Woman
over a year ago

Ayrshire

"I have nothing against any of it at all, I'm an open minded person.

If im in the wrong here with my mistake and not the manner in which i was looked and spoken to like then that's a problem."

A tattoo isn't a protected characteristic

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It was a small craft shop but i'm not going to give the name as it wouldn't be fair nor do i want to break some sort of law.

People are entitled to do what they want , I just see it as any other sign to he honest. It was just the short fuse they have over it all.

It's not something that affects me so i don't educate myself on it

Why not name the shop, what law is stopping you ?

Whereabouts was this sign you missed ?

It’s a shame that these stories are believed immediately, that maybe if true, the reality was completely different.

Regardless of how the OP felt he was treated, it would be a dick move to name a small craft shop on here and possibly mean folk end up getting a hard time.

That's not the point I was making.

The OP is being accused of exaggerating or telling porkies. I don't think a non binary person commenting on here with such a story would be met with the same disbelief.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think pronoun badges will become more common to help people be referred to the way they want to be. Until we’re less assuming maybe as a society at least.

Maybe we should all be referred to as people/they/them, it feels a bit more inclusive.

I think it’s a good idea. I support inclusivity.

To me, we have better inclusivity when we get away from names, words, badges, categorisations.

I get what you mean. But I don’t think that’s actually true otherwise people wouldn’t wear pronoun badges at all and people wouldn’t be misgendered?"

They would though. How many times have you watched a show or a film where there has been a "can't tell the gender" joke in there? Hell, I can honestly point out one in "mars attacks" with zero thinking of an example to point out to you

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I have nothing against any of it at all, I'm an open minded person.

If im in the wrong here with my mistake and not the manner in which i was looked and spoken to like then that's a problem."

If you feel like they’re in the wrong then that should be enough for you. I hope you haven’t come here and posted this in the hope we’d validate you? That is a slippery slope.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It was a small craft shop but i'm not going to give the name as it wouldn't be fair nor do i want to break some sort of law.

People are entitled to do what they want , I just see it as any other sign to he honest. It was just the short fuse they have over it all.

It's not something that affects me so i don't educate myself on it

Why not name the shop, what law is stopping you ?

Whereabouts was this sign you missed ?

It’s a shame that these stories are believed immediately, that maybe if true, the reality was completely different.

Regardless of how the OP felt he was treated, it would be a dick move to name a small craft shop on here and possibly mean folk end up getting a hard time.

That's not the point I was making.

The OP is being accused of exaggerating or telling porkies. I don't think a non binary person commenting on here with such a story would be met with the same disbelief."

Probably because they wouldn't/would not be such a twatbag about it

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By *emorefridaCouple
over a year ago

La la land

"It was a small craft shop but i'm not going to give the name as it wouldn't be fair nor do i want to break some sort of law.

People are entitled to do what they want , I just see it as any other sign to he honest. It was just the short fuse they have over it all.

It's not something that affects me so i don't educate myself on it

Why not name the shop, what law is stopping you ?

Whereabouts was this sign you missed ?

It’s a shame that these stories are believed immediately, that maybe if true, the reality was completely different.

Regardless of how the OP felt he was treated, it would be a dick move to name a small craft shop on here and possibly mean folk end up getting a hard time.

That's not the point I was making.

The OP is being accused of exaggerating or telling porkies. I don't think a non binary person commenting on here with such a story would be met with the same disbelief."

I agree with you. But also know I've been told I can look angry when I'm nervous. So I personally think a lot of emphasis has been put on one look by a stranger. Who then by the sounds of it politely told them the person's preferred pronoun's, without any abuse.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think pronoun badges will become more common to help people be referred to the way they want to be. Until we’re less assuming maybe as a society at least.

Maybe we should all be referred to as people/they/them, it feels a bit more inclusive.

I think it’s a good idea. I support inclusivity.

To me, we have better inclusivity when we get away from names, words, badges, categorisations.

I get what you mean. But I don’t think that’s actually true otherwise people wouldn’t wear pronoun badges at all and people wouldn’t be misgendered?"

Ah yes the unknown gender "I have tattoos so I understand your plight"

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By *ld StrumpetWoman
over a year ago

Telford

I think Nows the ideal time for me to make it publicly known and I’d appreciate my fab friends support ..

I am trans-slender! Yes I’m fat but I refer to myself as slim.

Thank you

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It was a small craft shop but i'm not going to give the name as it wouldn't be fair nor do i want to break some sort of law.

People are entitled to do what they want , I just see it as any other sign to he honest. It was just the short fuse they have over it all.

It's not something that affects me so i don't educate myself on it

Why not name the shop, what law is stopping you ?

Whereabouts was this sign you missed ?

It’s a shame that these stories are believed immediately, that maybe if true, the reality was completely different.

Regardless of how the OP felt he was treated, it would be a dick move to name a small craft shop on here and possibly mean folk end up getting a hard time.

That's not the point I was making.

The OP is being accused of exaggerating or telling porkies. I don't think a non binary person commenting on here with such a story would be met with the same disbelief.

Probably because they wouldn't/would not be such a twatbag about it"

So the OP is being a twatbag? There is absolutely nothing in his opening post which is disrespectful or rude.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I think pronoun badges will become more common to help people be referred to the way they want to be. Until we’re less assuming maybe as a society at least.

Maybe we should all be referred to as people/they/them, it feels a bit more inclusive.

I think it’s a good idea. I support inclusivity.

To me, we have better inclusivity when we get away from names, words, badges, categorisations.

I get what you mean. But I don’t think that’s actually true otherwise people wouldn’t wear pronoun badges at all and people wouldn’t be misgendered?

Ah yes the unknown gender "I have tattoos so I understand your plight""

Have I said some disrespectful? I don't understand your rage over it all.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think pronoun badges will become more common to help people be referred to the way they want to be. Until we’re less assuming maybe as a society at least.

Maybe we should all be referred to as people/they/them, it feels a bit more inclusive.

I think it’s a good idea. I support inclusivity.

To me, we have better inclusivity when we get away from names, words, badges, categorisations.

I get what you mean. But I don’t think that’s actually true otherwise people wouldn’t wear pronoun badges at all and people wouldn’t be misgendered?

Ah yes the unknown gender "I have tattoos so I understand your plight"

Have I said some disrespectful? I don't understand your rage over it all."

I don't think you have. He's just angry at the world.

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By *melia DominaTV/TS
over a year ago

Edinburgh (She/Her)

"I think the world's gone mad. Talk about an over reaction on their part. "

Agree completely.

I am very much pro gender and an individuals choice, however, they are shop assitants. They are there to serve you. This not a she/they issue here.

You did what comes naturally and were polite in your reply. For them to go of the rails at you. Nah! Sorry. I would have asked for my money back and took my business elsewhere.

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By *ora the explorerWoman
over a year ago

Paradise, Herts

I find it easier to just avoid everyone than I can’t say anything wrong.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I find it easier to just avoid everyone than I can’t say anything wrong.

So you identify as a hermit.

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By *ora the explorerWoman
over a year ago

Paradise, Herts

"I find it easier to just avoid everyone than I can’t say anything wrong.

So you identify as a hermit."

We joke but sadly I think this will be the way it will go. My brother has a non binary person at work who reports or kicks off every time someone says he (not on purpose!) nobody bothers with them anymore and now they’re complaining about that.

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By *G LanaTV/TS
over a year ago

Gosport

I can see it get very contentious in a lot of workplaces. Personally I don't like the pressure coming from my HR department to declare our pronouns on everyrhing. For me that means making decisions I don't want to face at at moment.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

"I can see it get very contentious in a lot of workplaces. Personally I don't like the pressure coming from my HR department to declare our pronouns on everyrhing. For me that means making decisions I don't want to face at at moment."

I work in HR for a pretty big government organisation and I don't have pronouns on my ail signatures and there's no pressure for anyone to have them.

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By *iltsTSgirlTV/TS
over a year ago

chichester

"I think pronoun badges will become more common to help people be referred to the way they want to be. Until we’re less assuming maybe as a society at least.

Maybe we should all be referred to as people/they/them, it feels a bit more inclusive.

I think it’s a good idea. I support inclusivity.

To me, we have better inclusivity when we get away from names, words, badges, categorisations.

I get what you mean. But I don’t think that’s actually true otherwise people wouldn’t wear pronoun badges at all and people wouldn’t be misgendered?

Ah yes the unknown gender "I have tattoos so I understand your plight"

Have I said some disrespectful? I don't understand your rage over it all."

The dude is just ranty ,easier to ignore these types out of convos

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By *Cocksucker84Man
over a year ago

salford

This didn't happen, but it's good to know so many gullible people will believe anything they read.

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By *tephTV67TV/TS
over a year ago

Cheshire

"It was a small craft shop but i'm not going to give the name as it wouldn't be fair nor do i want to break some sort of law.

People are entitled to do what they want , I just see it as any other sign to he honest. It was just the short fuse they have over it all.

It's not something that affects me so i don't educate myself on it

Why not name the shop, what law is stopping you ?

Whereabouts was this sign you missed ?

It’s a shame that these stories are believed immediately, that maybe if true, the reality was completely different.

Regardless of how the OP felt he was treated, it would be a dick move to name a small craft shop on here and possibly mean folk end up getting a hard time.

That's not the point I was making.

The OP is being accused of exaggerating or telling porkies. I don't think a non binary person commenting on here with such a story would be met with the same disbelief."

I would question any story that didn’t seem quite believable, including from non binary or trans people. That’s why I asked questions to be convinced that this actually happened.

1. Where was the sign ?

Why ask that question ? if you as a shop owner have decided to make a point to your customers that you need them to refer to your staff as ‘they’ or ‘them’ you need to ensure this sign is in a place (or several signs) in which it can easily be seen. Or else you will have your staff constantly telling people they’re using incorrect terms.

2. What did the sign say ?

Does it say, we respectfully ask that you do not use ….please use ….to address our staff. If it did, you can and I’m guessing several people would, question the sign quite regularly or refuse outright to obey this sign and take their business elsewhere. In fact if the sign was put somewhere prominent it could put people off from going in at all. With the way the town centres are struggling to attract customers it seems a bit strange to possibly alienate some of them from entering your shop. Especially the older clientele who wouldn’t want to cause offence.

I haven’t actually ever, even in gay bookshops, cafes

or businesses seen a sign up like this.

There’s plenty of people who want to believe this has happened. I’m just questioning the details that’s all and if true I’d agree with everyone who commented they’d take their business elsewhere. Nobody should be rudely talked to or even looked at for missing a sign or saying miss, mr etc…

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Whatcha think?

Sorry you had that experience OP. You made a mistake and apologised.

We can't get it right all the time and god knows we don't. But there is a way to highlight the mistake and rudeness is not the way. Identify how you want whatever but don't be rude about it

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By *immyinreadingMan
over a year ago

henley on thames

"This didn't happen, but it's good to know so many gullible people will believe anything they read.

Any proof? Or just calling OP a liar on a whim?

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By *atfuckerbristolMan
over a year ago

Wells

[Removed by poster at 02/04/22 10:01:10]

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"It was a small craft shop but i'm not going to give the name as it wouldn't be fair nor do i want to break some sort of law.

People are entitled to do what they want , I just see it as any other sign to he honest. It was just the short fuse they have over it all.

It's not something that affects me so i don't educate myself on it

Why not name the shop, what law is stopping you ?

Whereabouts was this sign you missed ?

It’s a shame that these stories are believed immediately, that maybe if true, the reality was completely different.

Regardless of how the OP felt he was treated, it would be a dick move to name a small craft shop on here and possibly mean folk end up getting a hard time.

That's not the point I was making.

The OP is being accused of exaggerating or telling porkies. I don't think a non binary person commenting on here with such a story would be met with the same disbelief.

I would question any story that didn’t seem quite believable, including from non binary or trans people. That’s why I asked questions to be convinced that this actually happened.

1. Where was the sign ?

2. What did the sign say ?

I haven’t actually ever, even in gay bookshops, cafes

or businesses seen a sign up like this.

The sign she pointed out to me was in one of those plastic stands I don't know what they're called and it was on the counter so it was pretty visable and i'm unsure if there was any other signs but i'm sure there would've been, so they were pretty clear but signs are everywhere so you don't read them all.

I can't rememember what the sign said exactly but i don't doubt it was worded politely.

It's a first for me aswell, I can't say i've seen one before, it was pretty clear they were annoyed , it went from a chatty encounter to very few words.

I wouldn't benifit at all from making the story up

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By *UGGYBEAR2015Man
over a year ago

BRIDPORT

You can easily avoid all the pronoun confusion by simply referring to everyone as Cunt, makes life so much simpler.

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By *ex HolesMan
over a year ago

Up North

I won’t post what I really think but it really is a load of old bollocks.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"You can easily avoid all the pronoun confusion by simply referring to everyone as Cunt, makes life so much simpler. "

Works for me

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By *arlomaleMan
over a year ago

darlington

"It was a small craft shop but i'm not going to give the name as it wouldn't be fair nor do i want to break some sort of law.

People are entitled to do what they want , I just see it as any other sign to he honest. It was just the short fuse they have over it all.

It's not something that affects me so i don't educate myself on it

Why not name the shop, what law is stopping you ?

Whereabouts was this sign you missed ?

It’s a shame that these stories are believed immediately, that maybe if true, the reality was completely different.

Regardless of how the OP felt he was treated, it would be a dick move to name a small craft shop on here and possibly mean folk end up getting a hard time.

That's not the point I was making.

The OP is being accused of exaggerating or telling porkies. I don't think a non binary person commenting on here with such a story would be met with the same disbelief.

I would question any story that didn’t seem quite believable, including from non binary or trans people. That’s why I asked questions to be convinced that this actually happened.

1. Where was the sign ?

2. What did the sign say ?

I haven’t actually ever, even in gay bookshops, cafes

or businesses seen a sign up like this.

I can't rememember what the sign said exactly but i don't doubt it was worded politely.

It's a first for me aswell, I can't say i've seen one before, it was pretty clear they were annoyed , it went from a chatty encounter to very few words.

I wouldn't benifit at all from making the story up"
you should of said nice sign shame I can’t read turn the tables in them make them feel uncomfortable

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By *immyinreadingMan
over a year ago

henley on thames

"You can easily avoid all the pronoun confusion by simply referring to everyone as Cunt, makes life so much simpler. "

True. Saying “that prick over there” doesn’t work as effectively, as prick is generally a term of abuse for a male.

“Arsehole” would work effectively too though, if you wanted to be more polite

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By * la carteCouple
over a year ago

Dublin

The OP is being accused of exaggerating or telling porkies. I don't think a non binary person commenting on here with such a story would be met with the same disbelief.

I would question any story that didn’t seem quite believable, including from non binary or trans people. That’s why I asked questions to be convinced that this actually happened.

1. Where was the sign ?

2. What did the sign say ?

I haven’t actually ever, even in gay bookshops, cafes

or businesses seen a sign up like this.

This is an interesting debate as someone who has a transitioning teen and getting my head around being supportive and as someone who was probably pretty oblivious to gender identity, simply because it's not something I've before been confronted with - never with an intention to want to be discriminatory of anyone.

I've just had the debate with my teen after reading this and been told best way to avoid discrimination and confrontation is to use the terms "they/them/their". Which will take time to get used to and to practice. It doesn't happen overnight when you've been using he/she all your life.

There are a number of things with this scenario which stand out to me:

1. Customer is king, particularly if they are behaving respectfully. I for one, am always lost in my own world, so signage can easily be missed on my part. I'd like to think I'm the kind of customer who behaves respectfully and expect to be treated the same. After all, I may be spending my hard earned cash with them rather than next door or online.

2. Education: I'm very much in the process of being educated on gender because of my teen. I'm trying to listen, to understand, to support and to act accordingly and respectfully. Where educating the general public on this matter is concerned, there's a time and a place, there's a tone and a way to educate those who are oblivious. Is a shop front with a sign and an interaction as described really appropriate? I'm sure it left all parties involved feeling crappy - surely this is not how anyone who is "different" wants to be remembered, it possibly sets a tone and negativity is easily associated - why put yourself or your customers through it? You want them to come back, no (unless they were rude and abusive, of course!)? I understand we all have bad days. Maybe it could have gone better on a good day. So maybe leave the educating part on a bad day and bite your tongue in the hope/assumption that no disrespect was intended? I like to believe in the good in people. It's what gets me through the day!

3. If any business has signage up for discrimination of one particular protected characteristic, where are the signs for other protected characteristics - just playing devil's advocate - is that in itself not discriminatory of said other protected characteristics?

4. This coincides with point 2 from the previous poster. As a business, are you going to alienate certain customers from even entering your premises with the sign? Even though they may not be discriminatory of gender, or simply unaware? But merely insecure in what it actually means and that they may commit a fauxpas? If the business can afford it, if it's part of their ethos, ok...

It's certainly been a helpful thread for me. A lot to take away and think about. Thank you OP

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

OP, did the shop mention non binary ?

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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma

I can see that if this situation started to become a big enough problem, as in people simply do not know how to refer to a person for fear of getting it wrong, it may potentially lead to less civil interactions and requests. Are we getting there already?

No reference to the person, just instruction: Can I have, your colleague, the worker.

Parenting children must be a nightmare for some.

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By *ausageNmashCouple
over a year ago

Andover

Just as well you didnt call her " love"

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By *uzie69xTV/TS
over a year ago

Maidstone

"I refuse to play along with these fantasies. There's no such thing as non binary and no one can convince me otherwise. You want to live in la la land that's on you. But don't expect me to go along with the fantasy. Your rights end where mine begin."

Reported as offensive due ignorance. Replace non-binary with Ukrainian and you would sound like Putin!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Reported as offensive due ignorance. Replace non-binary with Ukrainian and you would sound like Putin!"

Behave.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Reported as offensive due ignorance. Replace non-binary with Ukrainian and you would sound like Putin!

Behave."

Yes mommy

Tell me to do the dishes please

Oh Spank me hard!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The OP is being accused of exaggerating or telling porkies. I don't think a non binary person commenting on here with such a story would be met with the same disbelief.

I would question any story that didn’t seem quite believable, including from non binary or trans people. That’s why I asked questions to be convinced that this actually happened.

1. Where was the sign ?

2. What did the sign say ?

I haven’t actually ever, even in gay bookshops, cafes

or businesses seen a sign up like this.

There are a number of things with this scenario which stand out to me:

It's certainly been a helpful thread for me. A lot to take away and think about. Thank you OP"

I've had similar conversations with my teens. One of them gets really cross with me when I forget to call Sam Smith them. For example. I pushback when this happens. I will be polite but I'm not twisting myself into knots. I don't believe in gender for myself but I recognise it's important to others. However getting pedantic and huffy because someone hasn't used they is somewhat self-important. There needs to be some give and take. I see a number of people calling it bollocks and so forth or taking the mick. I don't think if your child or someone in your family was struggling with gender identity you'd be so flippant.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If it walks like a duck.

Talks like a duck.

Then it’s a swan.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If it walks like a duck.

Talks like a duck.

Then it’s a swan."

Fuck a duck

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If it walks like a duck.

Talks like a duck.

Then it’s a swan.

Fuck a duck

Fuzzy duck.

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By *ora the explorerWoman
over a year ago

Paradise, Herts

"If it walks like a duck.

Talks like a duck.

Then it’s a swan.

Fuck a duck

Fuzzy duck."

Ducky fuzz

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If it walks like a duck.

Talks like a duck.

Then it’s a swan.

Fuck a duck

Fuzzy duck."

Y'alright

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If it walks like a duck.

Talks like a duck.

Then it’s a swan.

Fuck a duck

Fuzzy duck.

Ducky fuzz"

2 Duck 2 fuzz Pond drift

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If it walks like a duck.

Talks like a duck.

Then it’s a swan.

Fuck a duck

Fuzzy duck.

Ducky fuzz"

Duzzy fuck.

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By *aysOfOurLivesCouple
over a year ago

Chigwell

"lets be honest 90% of people don't even know what Non-binary is.

Hexadecimal?"

very good, you get an F for that

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By *ora the explorerWoman
over a year ago

Paradise, Herts

"If it walks like a duck.

Talks like a duck.

Then it’s a swan.

Fuck a duck

Fuzzy duck.

Ducky fuzz

Duzzy fuck."

Fuck he does

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By *parkle1974Woman
over a year ago

Leeds

"If it walks like a duck.

Talks like a duck.

Then it’s a swan."

But what species of Swan as there are 7....

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By * la carteCouple
over a year ago

Dublin

The OP is being accused of exaggerating or telling porkies. I don't think a non binary person commenting on here with such a story would be met with the same disbelief.

I would question any story that didn’t seem quite believable, including from non binary or trans people. That’s why I asked questions to be convinced that this actually happened.

1. Where was the sign ?

2. What did the sign say ?

I haven’t actually ever, even in gay bookshops, cafes

or businesses seen a sign up like this.

There are a number of things with this scenario which stand out to me:

It's certainly been a helpful thread for me. A lot to take away and think about. Thank you OP

I think you've hit the nail on the head - it's about give and take, it's about understanding, compassion and acceptance. We're all human, we're all different, we all make mistakes. If we can carry off respectful and polite behaviour, isn't that the bottom line? I believe most people who do say he/she instead of they/them mean no disrespect or offence in what's an ever changing world - so giving a little on both counts goes a long way.

Add a little smile and some humour.

Jee whizz, all of this business being politically correct is bloody hard work.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If it walks like a duck.

Talks like a duck.

Then it’s a swan.

But what species of Swan as there are 7...."

Fuuuuuuck.

Err the one that looks like like a duck…

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By *aysOfOurLivesCouple
over a year ago

Chigwell

They have every right to be addressed how they wish. They have no right to be pissed off if someone makes a mistake.

For a group of people obsessed with inclusion some can be bloody intolerant.

I’d have left the purchase and left with “well I identify as a potential loyal customer lost over wholly unwarranted intolerant snowflaking”

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think pronoun badges will become more common to help people be referred to the way they want to be. Until we’re less assuming maybe as a society at least.

Maybe we should all be referred to as people/they/them, it feels a bit more inclusive. "

Not if I want to be referred to as she/ her or he/ him.

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By *parkle1974Woman
over a year ago

Leeds

[Removed by poster at 02/04/22 11:38:53]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I didn't continue I apolagised and told them that I didn't see the sign which I honestly didn't, It's just habbit of saying he and she that's all.

I just feel they need to be aware that not everyone will understand your life choices."
why did you apologize I'd have told her keep her product and do one world gone mad

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By *parkle1974Woman
over a year ago

Leeds

"If it walks like a duck.

Talks like a duck.

Then it’s a swan.

But what species of Swan as there are 7....

Fuuuuuuck.

Err the one that looks like like a duck…"

But which duck...there are 22 species in the UK

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If it walks like a duck.

Talks like a duck.

Then it’s a swan.

But what species of Swan as there are 7....

Fuuuuuuck.

Err the one that looks like like a duck…

But which duck...there are 22 species in the UK

The one that looks like a swan…

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"They have every right to be addressed how they wish. They have no right to be pissed off if someone makes a mistake.

For a group of people obsessed with inclusion some can be bloody intolerant.

I’d have left the purchase and left with “well I identify as a potential loyal customer lost over wholly unwarranted intolerant snowflaking”"

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By *agneto.Man
over a year ago

Bham

"They have every right to be addressed how they wish. They have no right to be pissed off if someone makes a mistake.

For a group of people obsessed with inclusion some can be bloody intolerant.

I’d have left the purchase and left with “well I identify as a potential loyal customer lost over wholly unwarranted intolerant snowflaking”"

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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma

[Removed by poster at 02/04/22 11:43:59]

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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma

"I think pronoun badges will become more common to help people be referred to the way they want to be. Until we’re less assuming maybe as a society at least.

Maybe we should all be referred to as people/they/them, it feels a bit more inclusive.

Not if I want to be referred to as she/ her or he/ him. "

Bollox... Nobody has thought of that, let me get onto HR, we could have problem.

Hello, HR? Can you give the figures for all the men and women.. Yes I understand I can't simply refer to people as men or women, I will call you back.

Hello, HR? Can I have the numbers for people who prefer to be referred to?

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

I work with international students. In many cultures, the same name may be used by any gender of person. For example, Alaa in Arabic. When I see my list of students, I would generally have no idea of their gender by looking at their name. So, we use they/them as standard when emailing each other about students, for example. This easily avoids misgendering students and doesn't take any effort to do.

I have one transgender student in my current teaching group and again, it really doesn't take any effort to use the pronouns that they prefer, even though those pronouns differ from the biological sex stamped in their passport. Even better, you don't refer to the student by pronoun, but actually use their name.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I work with international students. In many cultures, the same name may be used by any gender of person. For example, Alaa in Arabic. When I see my list of students, I would generally have no idea of their gender by looking at their name. So, we use they/them as standard when emailing each other about students, for example. This easily avoids misgendering students and doesn't take any effort to do.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

I have on occasion asked what their name in their country is. But not in a demand way

in a learning more about them way.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

Yes, a lot either choose a Western sounding name or are actually given both at birth by their families. I have taught students with names like Snow. I still wouldn't assume gender by seeing the name Snow. I've had some others that are even more unusual but won't put them here because they're pretty individual.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I have on occasion asked what their name in their country is. But not in a demand way

in a learning more about them way.

The demand stuff seems very very specific to gender, and it's so gross to me. What's in my pants is none of your business (or what was when I was born), please just respect my preferences about what I want to be called."
I didn't mean to imply you demand. Just noone bats an eye when a Chinese person asks to be called Andrew. That request is respected.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

Also our staff must call students their preferred name. Even if to us, their preferred name is not a "name" word.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

I have on occasion asked what their name in their country is. But not in a demand way

in a learning more about them way.

The demand stuff seems very very specific to gender, and it's so gross to me. What's in my pants is none of your business (or what was when I was born), please just respect my preferences about what I want to be called.I didn't mean to imply you demand. Just noone bats an eye when a Chinese person asks to be called Andrew. That request is respected. "

Yes. Heck, if I wanted to be called my middle name or my grandmother's name, no problem. But if I wanted to be called my grandfather's name then suddenly people would kick off.

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By *ad NannaWoman
over a year ago

East London

I have a niece who has a typical mens' haircut, dresses in male clothing, acts very masculine and laughs when people call her he.

She knows it's going to confuse people, and doesn't enjoy berating people for getting it wrong.

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By *tephTV67TV/TS
over a year ago

Cheshire

Sorry it’s a long post.

Ok, so we have a business that has employed a non binary person, someone that the Op has said is female as they referred to her as a she.

They went away to gift wrap his potential purchase and he then went to the counter. This is where the incident actually happened and he was told they a policy (including a sign) that he was wrong to use pronouns put simply, everyone in the shop has to be called ‘they, them etc…’

The Op said the only sign he saw that was pointed out to him was on the counter, I’m guessing this is where you would pay. Also this craft shop had loads of signs, so possibly elsewhere he just didn’t see them.

He felt the staff member was rude when they rebuked him over the way he addressed their colleague. Firstly with a look of disgust and then obvious annoyance at his so called ignorance. How you can be ignorant if the signs are not prominently placed and have to be pointed out to you, well that’s anyones guess.

The majority of the messages are in support of the Op, even Trans people have said they find the customer service disgusting and would’ve gone elsewhere. I totally agree, even as an ally to non binary people and the trans cause I’d have kicked up a fuss. Especially if you request or demand (we still don’t know the wording on the sign) I have to address someone as they etc…

But.

This still reads to me as I write it all out as something you’d read in the Daily Mail to get their readership angry. We have a craft shop I’d say more popular with an older customer base than teenagers or a younger demographic. Who have either employed a non binary person or it’s owned by that person, who’s decided that their customers have to obey a sign and address their staff differently than the majority of shops in this country. It could alienate a lot of customers especially when they see the signs and certainly put them off seeking help in case they accidentally use the wrong words. So rather than buying something think I’ll go some place else. It doesn’t come across as business savvy.

Non binary people or even those like myself that dress or act differently to the majority of people, often want to merge into the background. Just get on with their lives as peacefully as possible. If we decide to bring that to the workplace and they are supportive it’s even better. So highlighting it to the customers base, especially as the Op never mentioned they looked any different or was confused about their identity, isn’t something they would logically want to do.

I totally understand that it wasn’t the non binary person who criticised the Op, but their colleague. But there’s a lot of comments critical of non binary people on this thread. Who is the victim here ? it’s the poor guy who just wanted to buy a present and this pro inclusive business that’s the villain.

I can’t change minds and in all honesty it’s up to you to decide if this all rings true. I could be totally wrong and this was a terrible experience the Op had. But if it’s a made up story or something he’s seen in a newspaper that has an agenda against non binary, gay or trans people. Then it’s just more fuel to the fire and won’t allow people just to live their lives in peace.

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By *rHotNottsMan
over a year ago

Dubai & Nottingham

"Are you sure it was a look of disgust?

Or does that just make for a better story?"

I know quite a few non binary teens and they do that look like that when any ‘adult’ gets it wrong, they also roll thier eyes , have thier own secret language and treat binary people as a lower class / less intelligent. Interestingly most non binary I know teens and adults also have all kinds of other syndromes Aspergers, adhd , social anxiety etc so I see how they feel very different and ina world that doesn’t fit them

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

"Are you sure it was a look of disgust?

Or does that just make for a better story?

Is eye rolling, tutting and believing that older people know nothing, the preserve of non binary teens? Or is that just "teens"?

I know our son thinks he knows everything about anything and is prone to an eye roll or three, but, as far as we know, he identifies as a male person.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"Are you sure it was a look of disgust?

Or does that just make for a better story?

Every teenager I've ever come across has a secret language that the adults don't get because the adults are stupid, and they express their feelings about such outrage with eye rolling. I did too, and I'm cis.

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By *rHotNottsMan
over a year ago

Dubai & Nottingham

"Are you sure it was a look of disgust?

Or does that just make for a better story?

Is eye rolling, tutting and believing that older people know nothing, the preserve of non binary teens? Or is that just "teens"?

I know our son thinks he knows everything about anything and is prone to an eye roll or three, but, as far as we know, he identifies as a male person. "

I think it’s both. Teens and subculture combined.

In answer to the OP “ no thanks, your collegue served me they are just gift wrapping it for me”

Isn’t that hard to say, you don’t need a sign . In 2022 and gender isn’t what it was 50 years ago it’s moved on, language and culture has always evolved,,this isn’t anything new,, but rejecting to accept that for certain areas and not others could be viewed as trans bias.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Smells like BS to me.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Are you sure it was a look of disgust?

Or does that just make for a better story?

I have four teens at home. I worry for their poor eyeballs.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"Are you sure it was a look of disgust?

Or does that just make for a better story?

I have four teens at home. I worry for their poor eyeballs.

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By *ovebjsMan
over a year ago

Bristol

It’s fashionable to identify as non binary

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Whatcha think?

I refuse to play along with these fantasies. There's no such thing as non binary and no one can convince me otherwise. You want to live in la la land that's on you. But don't expect me to go along with the fantasy. Your rights end where mine begin."
Sorry in public you’re the type that would blatantly call someone Sir if they’re presenting as female and didn’t pass very well

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I meet your type all the time

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By *ity_BoyMan
over a year ago

London

What rights of yours are non binary people infringing?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What rights of yours are non binary people infringing?"

The right to be a bigot

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What rights of yours are non binary people infringing?

The right to be a bigot"
gender critical people should be dealt with the same way as racists

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What rights of yours are non binary people infringing?

The right to be a bigot gender critical people should be dealt with the same way as racists "

I wouldn't go that far but they should absolutly be labelled as the bigots that they are

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

What rights of yours are non binary people infringing?

The right to be a bigot gender critical people should be dealt with the same way as racists "

In the eyes of the law (Equality Act) they are. Gender is a protected characteristic.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Sorry it’s a long post.

Ok, so we have a business that has employed a non binary person, someone that the Op has said is female as they referred to her as a she.

But.

Fair points well made.

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By *emorefridaCouple
over a year ago

La la land

"Are you sure it was a look of disgust?

Or does that just make for a better story?

I have four teens at home. I worry for their poor eyeballs.

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By *ozapperMan
over a year ago

Lancashire

The qorld has gone mad, LGBT I could accept, non binary at a pinch but now you have to accommodate:

Lgbtiqcapgngfnba

which stands for:

‘Lesbian’, ‘Gay’, ‘Bisexual’, ‘Transgender’, ‘Intersex’, ‘Questioning’, ‘Curious’, ‘Asexual’, ‘Pansexual’, ‘Gender Nonconforming’, ‘Gender-Fluid’, ‘Non-Binary’, and ‘Androgynous’.

How bloody stupid

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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago

Terra Firma

What rights of yours are non binary people infringing?

The right to be a bigot gender critical people should be dealt with the same way as racists

In the eyes of the law (Equality Act) they are. Gender is a protected characteristic. "

How would this protection work for non binary?

Could a non binary person, chop and change their legal rights?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think pronoun badges will become more common to help people be referred to the way they want to be. Until we’re less assuming maybe as a society at least.

Maybe we should all be referred to as people/they/them, it feels a bit more inclusive.

I think it’s a good idea. I support inclusivity.

To me, we have better inclusivity when we get away from names, words, badges, categorisations.

I get what you mean. But I don’t think that’s actually true otherwise people wouldn’t wear pronoun badges at all and people wouldn’t be misgendered?

Ah yes the unknown gender "I have tattoos so I understand your plight"

Have I said some disrespectful? I don't understand your rage over it all."

I feel I misread this earlier and I apologise

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By *aliceWoman
over a year ago

Birmingham

What rights of yours are non binary people infringing?

The right to be a bigot gender critical people should be dealt with the same way as racists

In the eyes of the law (Equality Act) they are. Gender is a protected characteristic.

How would this protection work for non binary?

Could a non binary person, chop and change their legal rights?

Gender Reassignment is the protected characteristic rather than gender, and it includes non binary people after a ruling against JLR in an employment tribunal.

I have no idea what you mean by chop and change legal rights.

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By *rAitchMan
over a year ago

Diagonally Parked in a Parallel Universe

[Removed by poster at 02/04/22 13:05:07]

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