FabSwingers.com forum: Beards

By *hoir OP Couple
over a year ago

Clacton/Bury St. Edmunds

It has recently been brought to my attention that apparently beards are an old man thing. Now, as a sub-50 year old bearded beardy bloke, I find this weird.

I thought it weird as it has been a younger man's thing for over a decade now and whilst not everybodies cup of tea, it has long been an established fashion (not counting the other levels of beardy goodness).

So I guess the reason for the post and potential thread is; What do you think about beards? Are they only for old men? Do you like a beard?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Give me the beard

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Beards have been a fashionable for younger people for years now I’ve noticed…

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By *parkle1974Woman
over a year ago

Leeds

Not a fan of beards personally...do like a stubbly one though

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I’m 34 and have a beard. My wife is 27 and calls me an old man so maybe you’re right

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Can’t imagine not having a beard now, look bizarre without one

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By *ora the explorerWoman
over a year ago

Paradise, Herts

I don’t think they’re an old man thing. No I don’t like them x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Beards are a man thing.

Also pentagon research shows beards improve combat effectiveness.

The only people who don’t have beards are people that can’t grown them (sorry for your loss).

Or people that can’t fight.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Definitely not an old man thing. I thought older men preferred being clean shaved so I guess I don’t know anything anyway. But definitely think younger (whatever that is) people that can grow beards these days tend to have them and I think younger (again whatever it is) women tend to like them. In my experience and what I’ve seen on the apps.

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By *eliWoman
over a year ago

You're post 40 though, you probably fit the old bearded man category to be fair.

I think it depends on the person as to whether or not I like the beard. I'm not going to get a wide on for anyone with a few facial pubes going on but on the same hand, I'm not going to dry up on seeing them. So yes. Neither worship or loathe.

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By *parkle1974Woman
over a year ago

Leeds

"I don’t think they’re an old man thing. No I don’t like them x"

I hope you aren't being a negative Nora

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I have a beard and have had one for most of my adult life. I don’t consider myself to be old either just I suit a beard

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By *lik and PaulCouple
over a year ago

Flagrante

I'm over 60 and too young for a beard....plus Flik dislikes them.

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By *ora the explorerWoman
over a year ago

Paradise, Herts

"I don’t think they’re an old man thing. No I don’t like them x

I hope you aren't being a negative Nora

Hahaha. Oh god yeah! I didn’t think

I love beards!!!!

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By *indergirlWoman
over a year ago

somewhere, someplace

"I have a beard and have had one for most of my adult life. I don’t consider myself to be old either just I suit a beard "

Tis true

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Beards are a man thing.

Also pentagon research shows beards improve combat effectiveness.

The only people who don’t have beards are people that can’t grown them (sorry for your loss).

Or people that can’t fight."

This is true. I’ve recently grown my beard longer and automatically became stronger, faster and the longer it gets the better I’ve became at Brazilian jiu-jitsu despite having no training.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I absolutely love a beard

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By *hoir OP Couple
over a year ago

Clacton/Bury St. Edmunds

"You're post 40 though, you probably fit the old bearded man category to be fair.

Meow

I agree on that point in fairness but the person saying it was a 36 year old male...

Mine is a bit small currently so only 5 (actual) inches long and not patchy thankfully.

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By *parkle1974Woman
over a year ago

Leeds

"I don’t think they’re an old man thing. No I don’t like them x

I hope you aren't being a negative Nora

Hahaha. Oh god yeah! I didn’t think

I love beards!!!!

Best change my reply too...

I FREAKIN

THEM x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"You're post 40 though, you probably fit the old bearded man category to be fair.

Meow

I agree on that point in fairness but the person saying it was a 36 year old male...

Mine is a bit small currently so only 5 (actual) inches long and not patchy thankfully. "

I bet this 36 year old male can’t grow a beard.

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By *hoir OP Couple
over a year ago

Clacton/Bury St. Edmunds

"Beards are a man thing.

Also pentagon research shows beards improve combat effectiveness.

The only people who don’t have beards are people that can’t grown them (sorry for your loss).

Or people that can’t fight.

This is true. I’ve recently grown my beard longer and automatically became stronger, faster and the longer it gets the better I’ve became at Brazilian jiu-jitsu despite having no training."

Funnily enough I found I was proficient in MMA when I grew mine for the first time and moreso when I pulled on my Tapout tee!

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By *iscean_dreamMan
over a year ago

Llanelli

I'm not old yet but I love having a beard and I think less old than young have them anyway

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Beards are a man thing.

Also pentagon research shows beards improve combat effectiveness.

The only people who don’t have beards are people that can’t grown them (sorry for your loss).

Or people that can’t fight.

This is true. I’ve recently grown my beard longer and automatically became stronger, faster and the longer it gets the better I’ve became at Brazilian jiu-jitsu despite having no training.

Funnily enough I found I was proficient in MMA when I grew mine for the first time and moreso when I pulled on my Tapout tee!

It’s just scientific fact.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I get about 3 weeks into growing one before it gets to itchy and I shave it off

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I get about 3 weeks into growing one before it gets to itchy and I shave it off"

What about the pubes?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I get about 3 weeks into growing one before it gets to itchy and I shave it off

What about the pubes?"

Untouched for 45 years

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I get about 3 weeks into growing one before it gets to itchy and I shave it off

What about the pubes?

Untouched for 45 years "

You were born with pubes?

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By *aiseiMan
over a year ago

Birmingham

I’ve owned a tame beard for about 7 years now. It quite happily sits on my face and keeps itself to itself.

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By *hoir OP Couple
over a year ago

Clacton/Bury St. Edmunds

"I get about 3 weeks into growing one before it gets to itchy and I shave it off"

Oil and moisturise it and keep it combed. Sometimes just the combing with a quality comb (and brush as it gets longer) is enough to keep it from itching during that stage.

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By *isfits behaving badlyCouple
over a year ago

Coventry

To be honest I don't give two hoots if people like my facial hair or not. I don't groom myself for the approval of others, just what feels good and practical. Which is a blade number all over every two to three weeks. It's just annoying after three weeks growth.

(I'm assuming that was obvious though)

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By *ou only live onceMan
over a year ago

London

Yeah, I wouldn't have said they're an "old man's" thing now - have been sported by 20-something Hipsters for years now!

I don't suit one, and my personal view is that we reached saturation point a while ago, but each to their own so all power to you beard wearers!

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By *hoir OP Couple
over a year ago

Clacton/Bury St. Edmunds

"To be honest I don't give two hoots if people like my facial hair or not. I don't groom myself for the approval of others, just what feels good and practical. Which is a blade number all over every two to three weeks. It's just annoying after three weeks growth.

(I'm assuming that was obvious though)"

I am usually of this persuasion but sometimes it is used as a thing to club you over the head with after energy is spent trying to make things work.

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By *ou only live onceMan
over a year ago

London

Though, I would say, OP - as a fellow 40-something - I'm not sure we qualify as young anymore!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I get about 3 weeks into growing one before it gets to itchy and I shave it off

What about the pubes?

Untouched for 45 years

You were born with pubes?

Pubes chest and back hair

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I get about 3 weeks into growing one before it gets to itchy and I shave it off

Oil and moisturise it and keep it combed. Sometimes just the combing with a quality comb (and brush as it gets longer) is enough to keep it from itching during that stage.

I don't own a comb or brush. No point when your bald

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By *yronMan
over a year ago

grangemouth

"I don’t think they’re an old man thing. No I don’t like them x

I hope you aren't being a negative Nora

Hahaha. Oh god yeah! I didn’t think

I love beards!!!!

Be still my beating heart!

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By *isfits behaving badlyCouple
over a year ago

Coventry

(I'm assuming that was obvious though)"

Just realised I may have come across a bit like a grumpy old man. But I'm not old. Maybe age isn't a number or maybe it's the beard controlling me

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I get about 3 weeks into growing one before it gets to itchy and I shave it off

What about the pubes?

Untouched for 45 years

You were born with pubes?

Pubes chest and back hair "

Are you Sasquatch?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I get about 3 weeks into growing one before it gets to itchy and I shave it off

What about the pubes?

Untouched for 45 years

You were born with pubes?

Pubes chest and back hair

Are you Sasquatch?"

His hairy bigger brother

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By *viatrixWoman
over a year ago

Redhill

Most men in their 30s have a beard. So I don’t think they are for men at all.

To me they are a total turnoff, but I am well aware that I am in the minority.

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By *ealitybitesMan
over a year ago

Belfast

I've had one for about 5 years now. It's never been a fashion statement but just like my tattoo more of a reminder to myself of newly discovered self esteem.

Therefore I don't really concern myself with what others think of it but I've never had any negative feedback.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I get about 3 weeks into growing one before it gets to itchy and I shave it off

What about the pubes?

Untouched for 45 years

You were born with pubes?

Pubes chest and back hair

Are you Sasquatch?

His hairy bigger brother "

I’ll have to be a bit more careful next time I’m in Mabie Forest.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I get about 3 weeks into growing one before it gets to itchy and I shave it off

What about the pubes?

Untouched for 45 years

You were born with pubes?

Pubes chest and back hair

Are you Sasquatch?

His hairy bigger brother

I’ll have to be a bit more careful next time I’m in Mabie Forest."

You're safe that's not where I roam

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By *2000ManMan
over a year ago

Worthing

After hearing comments about my heavy stubble beard, I won't get going back to clean shaven.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I love a well kept beard on a guy as much as I love the clean shaved look. Beards don't look right on everyone though, but give me a short salt and pepper one on a gorgeous guy in a suit and I'm melting.

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By *oungalpha20Man
over a year ago

North West /Cumbria

I'm only 30 and I've got a beard. Most of my friends the same age also have beards.

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By *ora the explorerWoman
over a year ago

Paradise, Herts

"I don’t think they’re an old man thing. No I don’t like them x

I hope you aren't being a negative Nora

Hahaha. Oh god yeah! I didn’t think

I love beards!!!!

Be still my beating heart!

Haha I’m getting better. I don’t mind very short ones now. It’s not even a preference it’s like a proper phobia! I wish I wasn’t like it x

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By *amuelsquestMan
over a year ago

Sutton at hone

O like mine

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By *imi_RougeWoman
over a year ago

Portsmouth

It really depends on the man and the beard... Properly grown and groomed, they look amazing.

I really have a thing for moustaches though, when are they coming back into fashion?

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By *unx2019Couple
over a year ago

Moray

Sorry to say but not for me, love a smooth shaven face between my thighs

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By *hoir OP Couple
over a year ago

Clacton/Bury St. Edmunds

"It really depends on the man and the beard... Properly grown and groomed, they look amazing.

I really have a thing for moustaches though, when are they coming back into fashion?"

November normally but there are still some who sport moustaches nowadays. A forgotten form of facial hair by and large though

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I love a man with a beard.. its great during oral nice n tingle

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I love a man with a beard.. its great during oral nice n tingle

*makes note*

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By *hoir OP Couple
over a year ago

Clacton/Bury St. Edmunds

Can I jump on and say I love a good beard? Should hope I do really ;P love the man attached to it more though

Don't let it get you down love

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By *acey_RedWoman
over a year ago

Liverpool

On the right person they're great. I love my partner's beard.

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By *xmfrvnMan
over a year ago

Stoke-on-Trent

Pretty much relying on it, need something to break up the skin.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It has recently been brought to my attention that apparently beards are an old man thing. Now, as a sub-50 year old bearded beardy bloke, I find this weird.

So I guess the reason for the post and potential thread is; What do you think about beards? Are they only for old men? Do you like a beard?

Are they bollox.. a lot people look good with a beard young or old

n I am very partial to my Mr who has one, I find it very sexy on him

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By *UGGYBEAR2015Man
over a year ago

BRIDPORT

Had whiskers since late teens, now mid fifties, I could just never be arsed to shave, nothing to do with fashion.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I like my beard altho today i did change the style in homage to wrestlemania And thats the bottom liiiiiine...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's definitely become more fashionable for all ages in recent times and find it can really help with the shape of of the jaw.

I'm normally clean shaven but I might try and give it a go so it can hide my stupidly chubby cheeks

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Good job I’ve only another few months before I can be a 50 plus oldy beardy

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By *C79Man
over a year ago

Caterham

Im over 40 & have a fairly short beard to make my plain face a bit more interesting!

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

I find a good beard (goatee or whatever even stubbles but clean and groomed) totally and utterly and incredibly irresistible!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Maybe a rate my beard thread is due?

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By *hoir OP Couple
over a year ago

Clacton/Bury St. Edmunds

"Maybe a rate my beard thread is due? "

I like this idea

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By *ife NinjaMan
over a year ago

Dunfermline

"Not a fan of beards personally...do like a stubbly one though

You called

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I always wonder if lady's like my beard it's not viking style

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By *isbehavingWoman
over a year ago

Huntly

I love guys with a beard. Found out recently, I’m what’s known as pogonophile. Most definitely not an old man thing

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By *affeine DuskMan
over a year ago

Caerphilly

"I always wonder if lady's like my beard it's not viking style "

I hope they do.

It looks awesome, man.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Looooove a beard!!! It makes my insides go funny

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By *affeine DuskMan
over a year ago

Caerphilly

"Looooove a beard!!! It makes my insides go funny

...you grew one inside?

Well. I bet that looks awesome also.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I always wonder if lady's like my beard it's not viking style

I hope they do.

It looks awesome, man.

"
thanks mate

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By *uietly_KinkyMan
over a year ago

High Wycombe

I started growing mine around the time I turned 40, having dabbled briefly in my early 20s.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I have always had a short trimmed goatee

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By *xmfrvnMan
over a year ago

Stoke-on-Trent

"Looooove a beard!!! It makes my insides go funny

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Im over 40 & have a fairly short beard to make my plain face a bit more interesting!"

You really suit it too.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm Indian, and most of us have designer stubble

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By *iking 777Man
over a year ago

wick

Been hiding behind mine for years ...with out it l look like a potato

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By *LiamMan
over a year ago

Midlands

My face doesn't suit not having atleast stubble anymore

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By *uffymayfairCouple
over a year ago

vera playa, Almeria

I (Moose) have a beard, Buffy would probably kill me if I shaved it off, the kids wouldn't recognise me and the dog would attack me. I've never had any complaints about it

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By *iking 777Man
over a year ago

wick

"I (Moose) have a beard, Buffy would probably kill me if I shaved it off, the kids wouldn't recognise me and the dog would attack me. I've never had any complaints about it

"
can identify with that last time l shaved mine people l worked with walked straight past me lol

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By *issYeuxBleusWoman
over a year ago

My boudoir - S Wales

I’m a huge fan of beards.

When I Google all the actors that are in Vikings and see them clean shaven, it just doesn’t have the same effect on me. But I don’t think it makes a man look older or younger, just more handsome

IMO.

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By *oiluvfunMan
over a year ago

Penrith

"It has recently been brought to my attention that apparently beards are an old man thing. Now, as a sub-50 year old bearded beardy bloke, I find this weird.

So I guess the reason for the post and potential thread is; What do you think about beards? Are they only for old men? Do you like a beard?

I’m a 50+ guy, and at no point in my life have I ever grown a beard. The closest I’ve been is when I’ve grown a moustache for ‘Movember’, and boy, the 1st of December never came quick enough……

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By *hatYorkLadMan
over a year ago

York

Fashion moves on, beards had a good run for the last decade among the hipsters and wannabe lumberjacks but I've noticed many of the younger coming of age generation are shaving again now.

I had one for a while till I joined the army but am always clean shaven now, makes me look younger anyway

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By *agneto.Man
over a year ago

Bham

Fashion goes in cycles. When I was younger the line was that women preferred no facial hair so being a lamo I shaved but hated shaving. So was stubly most of the time.

Until I got a job where I had to be presentable so shaving got more annoying.

Then I got ill didn't shave and people said I looked good with a beard. And with a beard I didn't shave and could still look presentable at work so it was a win win.

Then on top of that I actually found women love the beard too! Well lots of them do.

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By *uzie69xTV/TS
over a year ago

Maidstone

"I love guys with a beard. Found out recently, I’m what’s known as pogonophile. Most definitely not an old man thing"

Good one! Love beards but can't say I like it so much I'd call myself a Pogonophile...

I sexed a young guy with a mahoosive fuck-off beard once. I was fascinated by it and every so often I would tugged at it to see if it'll come off...

The last time I did that to a beard that big, it came off... But then I was 4 and was sitting on his lap at the time... Ho ho ho...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

They do seem to be drifting out of fashion now, thank f... Longer that lasts the better, otherwise my Xmas job is fooked.

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By *allwelshcoupleCouple
over a year ago

Cwmbran

Mrs loves a man with a beard. Full and viking look is an instant turn on. Mr has a full beard much more salt than pepper now though.

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

Give me the beard, full-beard, goatee... as long as it is well groomed and smells nice.. I simply LOVE beards! xx

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By *erverseintentionsMan
over a year ago

Liverpool

I have a beard but it's ginger .. often looks like iv dipped my chin in prittstick then performed oral sex on a pouch of golden Virginia ..

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By *opsy RogersWoman
over a year ago

London

Like any body hair, it's the default setting and nothing to do with age.

In a world of followers, be you.

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By *eardedman7Man
over a year ago

Berkshire

Afternoon all! Bearded is here

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By *dinMan
over a year ago

Birmingham

Am mot quite 50 but am sporting a beard. Had it a few years and been told it suits me

Its more long stubble than full on beard tho, if that makes sense

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By *ools and the brainCouple
over a year ago

couple, us we him her.

It seems a bit hypocritical that women are happy to slag men off about having beard's and how much they hate them.

Yet god forbid if a man tried to tell women how they should style their hair..

It's like a reverse 50's parallel universe scenario type thing..

Run's for cover and hide's beard.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I just went all stone cold fancied a change

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By *ornucopiaMan
over a year ago

Bexley

I've never expected a woman to shave as a prerequisite to kissing them!

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By *hoir OP Couple
over a year ago

Clacton/Bury St. Edmunds

"It seems a bit hypocritical that women are happy to slag men off about having beard's and how much they hate them.

Yet god forbid if a man tried to tell women how they should style their hair..

It's like a reverse 50's parallel universe scenario type thing..

Run's for cover and hide's beard."

That's a very valid point, though it was the man of the couple that struggled with C's beard...

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By *az080378Woman
over a year ago

Cromer

I absolutely love a beard

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It has recently been brought to my attention that apparently beards are an old man thing. Now, as a sub-50 year old bearded beardy bloke, I find this weird.

So I guess the reason for the post and potential thread is; What do you think about beards? Are they only for old men? Do you like a beard?

Basically what has happened is that beards became fashionable, and then all the cassanovas who just basically grew a beard because it was in style. So, then eventually when women got sick of being played, they started going off men with beards, which I guess means all those guys will be zipping them off and making life easier for both the actual general beard wearers and pogonophiles.

As someone who has had a beard for somewhere around half of my adult life, I shan't be ridding it for fashionable reasons. Because I'm into metal, I tend to buck the trend anyway, and plus, it really helps with having some control over my dysmorphophobia

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Had my beard a long time now and cherry would not be happy if it disappeared.

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By *arkcrystalMan
over a year ago

Bristol

Cant grow one. Makes my face itch like crazy.

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By *ocket-RocketXCouple
over a year ago

Merthyr

Beards are my weakness! The more viking, the better haha

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I’m considering shaving mine into a full on ‘magnum pi’ moustache. Sometimes I think they look awesome

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By *9alMan
over a year ago

Bridgend

I have a beard & Viking blood

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By *ost SockMan
over a year ago

West Wales and Cardiff

"Beards are my weakness! The more viking, the better haha

Couldn’t be without a hig beard now.

Can you get a longboat that far up The Taff?

(that’s not some tortuous double-entendre, honest

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By *illingVicMan
over a year ago

Sevenoaks

Never ever have I given a damn about fashion, nor other people’s opinions. I wear a beard because I like it. Have done since my late teens, won’t stop any time soon!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Beards are my weakness! The more viking, the better haha

Couldn’t be without a hig beard now.

Can you get a longboat that far up The Taff?

(that’s not some tortuous double-entendre, honest

Oh, but it undoubtedly is

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By *ixenforfunWoman
over a year ago

banes mask

Ive seen plenty of all ages rockin beards. Not something i would have associated with just older men. How strange

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I love a beard x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Had a beard since I was 23

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By *nked_couple13Couple
over a year ago

Warrington

My Beard is probably the same size or a bit bigger than Gandalf's haha it's like marmite you either love or hate but genuinely not interested in the haters, get lots of positive attention when I'm out, random people comment plus I get free products sent due to my IG account, that's my 2 pennies worth...now I'm off to make a spell

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By *Marvel-Man
over a year ago

In The Gym

I first grew my beard in 2017 and kept it until the pandemic began in the UK in 2020.

Now every few months I grow it and shave it off again. At the moment I currently have a beard.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"My Beard is probably the same size or a bit bigger than Gandalf's haha it's like marmite you either love or hate but genuinely not interested in the haters, get lots of positive attention when I'm out, random people comment plus I get free products sent due to my IG account, that's my 2 pennies worth...now I'm off to make a spell

...I hear you...

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By *aitonelMan
over a year ago

Liverpool

Beards for the most part are mostly associated with older men because well, the older you get (for most, not all) the fuller beard you can grow. For some men they are able to grow a beard as soon as they hit puberty. For others they may not have much hair appear on their face at all until maybe in their 40s.

One way to generally look at it is the mane of a lion. Cubs and adolescent lions don't have one. Young males begin to have tufts, and the older and mature lions have huge thick manes.

Thats a very simple and basic breakdown but an effective one.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Beards mean different things to different cultures… as an act of faith people will have beards…

But the current trend in the West is more around the Hipsters which made beards more fashionable… I’ve had one on and off since I was 17… had a lot of stick when I was in my teens - but it’s ok now… maybe I was a trailblazer for some of my peers… but for me personally… it falls into three areas two important ones culture, faith and coincidently fashion.

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By *uzz And WoodyCouple
over a year ago

Maidstone

I like a nice, well-kept beard and moustache. Once it gets straggly or curling around the lip it looks scruffy but if it’s well maintained it’s attractive.

I prefer them on men though.

Lou x

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By *issYeuxBleusWoman
over a year ago

My boudoir - S Wales

"I’m considering shaving mine into a full on ‘magnum pi’ moustache. Sometimes I think they look awesome

I double dare you!

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

I like a nice tidy beard on a nice tidy man

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By *aughty but nice...Man
over a year ago

Staffs

"I like a nice tidy beard on a nice tidy man

I have a nice tidy beard and I think I'm a nice tidy man

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By *heggMan
over a year ago

South Brum/Criydon

"I’m a huge fan of beards.

When I Google all the actors that are in Vikings and see them clean shaven, it just doesn’t have the same effect on me. But I don’t think it makes a man look older or younger, just more handsome

IMO.

A friend of mine recently sent me a set of photos of actors with and without beards and the tagline "Beards, the male push-up bra."

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By *upersonic SamMan
over a year ago

wigan

42 and had a beard for 15 years through. It's very short now but had 2 long term relationships that both wanted the beard. I'll happily shave it if asked too but most around here seem to like it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Beards are still fashionable.

Although it seems many women don’t like them, there are still plenty that do!

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