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By *icketysplits OP   Woman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

Cull or vaccinate?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Cull or vaccinate?"
vaccinate... Vaccinate the cows while they're at it. End of problem...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Cull or vaccinate?"

Vaccinate

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Cull or vaccinate?

Vaccinate"

Vaccinate! And sort the beavers out at the same time!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Cull or vaccinate?

Vaccinate

Vaccinate! And sort the beavers out at the same time!! "

The yawning ones?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Im not sure that the vaccine works tbh and I cant see how wild animals are going to be caught and treated.

The cull wont be effective either though, but organicly reared beasts are far less likely to become infected so less intensive pastoral farming would be a best way.

On balance Id have to say Cull now to stop (or limit) the spread and as soon as an effective vaccine comes along phase the cull out.....

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By *icketysplits OP   Woman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound


"Cull or vaccinate?

Vaccinate

Vaccinate! And sort the beavers out at the same time!! "

Are you for reintroduction or not?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Cull or vaccinate?

Vaccinate

Vaccinate! And sort the beavers out at the same time!!

Are you for reintroduction or not?"

Of course!! Love a nice cute beaver!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

pardon the ignorance but is it something that's been on the news??

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By *azzaahhWoman
over a year ago

north wales / chester


"pardon the ignorance but is it something that's been on the news??"

was just thinking the same lol

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By *wencatWoman
over a year ago

Leeds

vaccinate

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By *ce WingerMan
over a year ago

P.O. Box DE1 0NQ

Used to have loads of badges, but they made my blazer too heavy.

I now walk with a pronounced, if slightly dodgy limp.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Cull them

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By *umbriaman1962Man
over a year ago

outside of penrith

i farm so this is near to the heart

cull but only in TB hot spots.

As far as i know after talking to vets vacine is year away from been ready for use.

there is no reason to cull badgers just for sake of it, ie i know of one set in same field as my cows but as my cows have tested clean for TB this set most be clean so i am happy to leave well alone. I if i had cows been killed because of Tb i would say different.

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By *ucsparkMan
over a year ago

dudley

As with all things in nature badgers needs to be balanced with everything else around them. There as been a cull happening in wales for a while and it does seem to be reducing TB in cows.

What I would say is that anything culled should be tested to prove links as all the goody goodies will be saying that there still is no link.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"pardon the ignorance but is it something that's been on the news??

was just thinking the same lol"

Yes... I heard it on Radio 4 yesterday...;-);-)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

eat them badger ham nice

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Either way, if something isn't done about the badger problem soon, this DEFRA video demonstrates one very serious problem which will arise.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C8TdLx3-xs

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By *icketysplits OP   Woman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound


"pardon the ignorance but is it something that's been on the news??"

Permission has been given for a cull in one area. There has been a trial on halting culls and this has been a topic of discussion, wider than the farming community, for about 5 years now.

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By *icketysplits OP   Woman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound


"i farm so this is near to the heart

cull but only in TB hot spots.

As far as i know after talking to vets vacine is year away from been ready for use.

there is no reason to cull badgers just for sake of it, ie i know of one set in same field as my cows but as my cows have tested clean for TB this set most be clean so i am happy to leave well alone. I if i had cows been killed because of Tb i would say different. "

Thanks for commenting from a personal perspective.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Vaccinate.....but they won't and the greens will be chucking themselves infront of the badgers on the 10 o'clock news !

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Working within a National Nature Conservation body it's bizarre the hypocrisy coming from within our own staff on the issue.

Some say cull, some say vaccinate, and some say leave alone.

Vaccination of badgers will not work, vaccination of cattle will, but then farmers will lose out on a status of 'clean' non-TB cattle.

Culling will, in the long term be ineffective too, and changing the biodiversity of the landscape is a non starter.

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By *icketysplits OP   Woman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound


"Working within a National Nature Conservation body it's bizarre the hypocrisy coming from within our own staff on the issue.

Some say cull, some say vaccinate, and some say leave alone.

Vaccination of badgers will not work, vaccination of cattle will, but then farmers will lose out on a status of 'clean' non-TB cattle.

Culling will, in the long term be ineffective too, and changing the biodiversity of the landscape is a non starter."

Thank you. I have found that the issue is not black and white (apologies!) even amongst the conservation and animal charities.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

i had a mate who got a farm which was tb clear so twice a year we went out and paint balled them as to identify resedent badgers to rouges thats moved in and he would only cull the new ones

so if you culled all badgers there would be mayhem as they always look for new territorys to take over

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By *umbriaman1962Man
over a year ago

outside of penrith

i as a farmer have no objection to vaccine if it worked! but as far as i know we are several years away from a vaccine that does work or could be used in uk. we already use vaccines for other things. In someways its a bit like foot and mouth every one was saying why not use a vaccine, but nobody had looked or new what long term result would be, plus you had supermarkets PR people saying vaccinate as at the same time supermarket buyers saying we wont touch anything that had vaccine in it !!!

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By *umbriaman1962Man
over a year ago

outside of penrith

[Removed by poster at 18/09/12 10:37:46]

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By *umbriaman1962Man
over a year ago

outside of penrith

only bit of debate i dont agree with is when organic farmers jump on band wagon trying to say that there some how safer when truth is the indoor intensive farms are the safest, i dont like saying that as i dont like indoor intensive farms, but i believe you say the truth

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By *icketysplits OP   Woman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound


"i had a mate who got a farm which was tb clear so twice a year we went out and paint balled them as to identify resedent badgers to rouges thats moved in and he would only cull the new ones

so if you culled all badgers there would be mayhem as they always look for new territorys to take over"

That is a very good point. Marking seems fine but paintballing hurts

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By *iamondsmiles.Woman
over a year ago

little house on the praire

Jay has badgers in his garden

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By *icketysplits OP   Woman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound


"only bit of debate i dont agree with is when organic farmers jump on band wagon trying to say that there some how safer when truth is the indoor intensive farms are the safest, i dont like saying that as i dont like indoor intensive farms, but i believe you say the truth"

Indoor intensive farming are only safe in the sense that it is an entirely controlled environment. What we don't know is what the knock on effect of that will be long term. Look at what has happened with human immunity and the rise in allergies just from keeping things too clean.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Am I being thick here......... but I understood that isnt the only way that TB has come back into this Country, at one point it was irradicated ....... or, and this could be where I am being dense, can humans not get TB from badgers and cows?????????? and where is the quizzical smiley when u want it?

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By *icketysplits OP   Woman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound


"Am I being thick here......... but I understood that isnt the only way that TB has come back into this Country, at one point it was irradicated ....... or, and this could be where I am being dense, can humans not get TB from badgers and cows?????????? and where is the quizzical smiley when u want it? "

Bovine TB can spread to humans but it is not the danger that human to human TB transmission is. The increase in rough sleeping and spitting combined with the ease of global travel have led to an increase in TB rates in this country.

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By *umbriaman1962Man
over a year ago

outside of penrith

i did not meen i like or aprove of intensive farming :i dont:

just i dont like some organic farmers taking moral high ground under false reasons

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By *icketysplits OP   Woman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound


"i did not meen i like or aprove of intensive farming :i dont:

just i dont like some organic farmers taking moral high ground under false reasons

"

I am sorry, I was the one being less than clear. I understood what you were saying but it prompted my thoughts on allergies and immunity. I can see some thinking that because cattle is food it should be treated as sterile all along it's production.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Am I being thick here......... but I understood that isnt the only way that TB has come back into this Country, at one point it was irradicated ....... or, and this could be where I am being dense, can humans not get TB from badgers and cows?????????? and where is the quizzical smiley when u want it?

Bovine TB can spread to humans but it is not the danger that human to human TB transmission is. The increase in rough sleeping and spitting combined with the ease of global travel have led to an increase in TB rates in this country."

yeah I knew that bit about human TB and also because we stopped the vaccination programme in this country because it had been eradicated - wasnt sure if bovine TB could be passed to humans

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By *umbriaman1962Man
over a year ago

outside of penrith

it can be spread to humans but very very low risk of it spreading to humans

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By *innamon!Woman
over a year ago

no matter

[Removed by poster at 18/09/12 22:52:26]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Organic farming tends to produce healthier food, be it market, arabal poltrey or pastoral. The food is more nutritous and animals lead better lives than under intensive methods (free range is inherant in the sytem). Yields can be a little lower but the organic farmer tends to be better off as his produce fetches a premium and the farm is more diverse........but i do agree that it doesnt guarantee safety. The sad thing is that intensive farming has led to this crisis (and bse/cjd) as animals are unhealthy and live in poorer conditions than free range or organic farming produces.

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By *els_BellsWoman
over a year ago

with the moon n stars somewhere in gtr manc

Cumbrian1962, I have found your views fascinating about it all.

Im a daft city girl, who sees badgers/foxes et al as cute creatures causing no harm except mess. How wrong am I!!

I love wild life (except birds, they scare me, evil buggers) and getting stuck in Cumbria during the first foot and mouth out break was quite frightening.

Yes I think farmers should be allowed to protect their livestock, the same as any home owner should be allowed to protect their home. But when it comes down to the whole culling thing, it doesnt take much time to realise they have made that species an endangered one, just for the sake of killing.

As I said, I am a city girl, so apologise for not knowing the ins and outs. If there is a true reason for culling in a certain areas, fair enough. If it is just to make a certain area 'prettier etc' then no. Culling should not be allowed. and this is from an anti hunter! Go figure!!!???

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By *ikeriderMan
over a year ago

prestatyn


" The sad thing is that intensive farming has led to this crisis (and bse/cjd) as animals are unhealthy and live in poorer conditions than free range or organic farming produces.

"

A very interesting point of view, could you give me some evidence that intensive farming has caused the problem.

It seems to be a popular view that is trotted out by the anti cull lobby, I can't find any link between intensive and non intensive(whatever those terms mean), because it seems to me if that was the problem ALL intensive farms would have a TB problem and free range would have no TB. Whereas that is not the case.

By the way I'm not keen on culling, I just can't see a viable alternative. I mean how are you going to vaccinate a sett of badgers? disturb them and they will bugger off never to come back, the same as if you shoot 1 the rest scarper.

I'm just glad I don't have to make the final decision.

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By *umbriaman1962Man
over a year ago

outside of penrith

Hels_Bells hi

i not sure what i think of cull i not totaly for it but something as to be done due to massive amount cattle being put down as tb positive ( number of cattle compulsorily slaughtered as reactors or direct contacts was 18,213 in January to June 2012, compared to 18,081 in January to June 201 )

the simple answer would be a vaccine for cattle but there is not one yet.

i am against badger cull somewhere like cumbria where there is a very low risk of

tb but in southeast where same farms have been looseing cattle for 15 years something as to be done.

Thing have built up over years as no one in power in london as balls to tackle problem and take action either cull or chucking money as searching for other cure, or thinking out side the box to come up with answer.

As i said before a cull should not be about getting rid of badgers in clean areas of uk

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By *umbriaman1962Man
over a year ago

outside of penrith

" The sad thing is that intensive farming has led to this crisis (and bse/cjd) as animals are unhealthy and live in poorer conditions than free range or organic farming produces

thing like that above does make me see red as TB as nothing to do with organic or intensive

i could take you to very good intensive farms or bad intensive farms as well as good and bad organic farms. it down to people running either that makes them good or bad

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Save or badgers !!!! Everything has right to live n be here! Xx

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Please look up save me on fb, Brian May runs in and as an experianced scientist he can give you all the facts on that page. Anyone in doubt please join it and read it. Thankyou xx

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By *ikeriderMan
over a year ago

prestatyn


"Save or badgers !!!! Everything has right to live n be here! Xx "

I agree, but what about the 34,000 cattle slaughtered last year and the 31.000 the year before and the 37,000 the year before that.

There is no easy answer to the problem but it seems to me there is no joined up thinking about it, surely it cannot continue being a one sided way of dealing with TB, or can it?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Cull them I dont want meat I might eat full of any more drugs than they have to have.

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By *ikeriderMan
over a year ago

prestatyn


"Cull them I dont want meat I might eat full of any more drugs than they have to have."

Do you eat badger??? Oh, you mean the cattle....what drugs do they give them then?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Do not listen to brian may or any of the other celebs who think stopping the cull is going to help badgers.

The facts are badgers carry tb and die a horrible death from it so its in the badgers interest that we sort this problem.The badger has no natural predators and there numbers have increased hugely in the last 30 years.Farmers dont want to cull all badgers,just the infected ones the same as they do in there cattle.

I have lost over 50 cows to tb,everyone knows the badgers are the problem but our hands are tied to sort the problem.All we want to do is take out infected badgers not wipe them all out.

If you want to know more about tb have a look at tb blogspot.

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By *damandeve4funCouple
over a year ago

Glasgow

I find the whole debate laughable in a horrific sense. We are needlessly killing innocent animals so we can needlessly kill other animals for our own selfish pleasure (food). We are supposed to be a civilised country. Until we stop needlessly imprisoning, raping, torturing, maiming and killing animals because of our own selfishness, we never will be.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Having had some experience of organic farming (working for an organic certifying body) I can categoricaly say that organic animals are healthier and happier (or at least less stressed) than non organic stock. For the most part they dont need anti biotics to fight off common infections because for the most part they are not kept in such densities where epidemics spread with such voracity (and of course no organic cow ever got bse, sheep got scrapie).

As to TB well, it would be a lie to say no organic heards are infected or that organics cant get the desease but there is evidence to show that despite organic farms being mixed in with intensive farms (by which I generaly mean farms which rely on feeds other than grass products and routinely administer admixes to feeds and use antibiotics as a preventative rather than curative measure. basicaly, any sort of farm that the big three certifiers would class as inorganic) that there is a lower incidence of infection both of animals in herds and of herds themselves.

Dont get me wrong I dont think intensive bad organic good, it is of course more complex than that but the standard of animal husbandry for organic pastoral and poultry farming is specified as so much higher than set by defra etc that I am realy confident that, almost universaly, organic farming is much better for ghe animals and the consumer....

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By *umbriaman1962Man
over a year ago

outside of penrith

i not against organic far from it

i believe as in most thing there is alway common ground, we all want healthy animals clean healthy food etc

my only problem with organic is when you have likes prince s, Paul McCartney, etc telling how easy it is to farm organicly when there dont have bank manager or landlord etc to worry about, its ok saying it pays it does for a few if no rent to pay or no overdraft etc.

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By *umbriaman1962Man
over a year ago

outside of penrith

i not again or for cull just something as to be done!!

likes of brian may dont help people say he,s a scientist ? he is in Astrophysics

what as that to do with animals TB etc.

he is free same as everyone else to think and say what he thinks but should not try say i am famous so what i say matter more than what you say ?.

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By *emmefataleWoman
over a year ago

dirtybigbadsgirlville


"I find the whole debate laughable in a horrific sense. We are needlessly killing innocent animals so we can needlessly kill other animals for our own selfish pleasure (food). We are supposed to be a civilised country. Until we stop needlessly imprisoning, raping, torturing, maiming and killing animals because of our own selfishness, we never will be."
What about the advancement of medical science? What about us Carnivores?

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By *damandeve4funCouple
over a year ago

Glasgow


"I find the whole debate laughable in a horrific sense. We are needlessly killing innocent animals so we can needlessly kill other animals for our own selfish pleasure (food). We are supposed to be a civilised country. Until we stop needlessly imprisoning, raping, torturing, maiming and killing animals because of our own selfishness, we never will be.What about the advancement of medical science? What about us Carnivores? "

In a nutshell, by eating meat, carnivores are contributing to the imprisoning, raping, torturing, maiming and killing animals to satisfy their own selfish pleasure. The only time that it is morally acceptable is in those few countries where there are no affordable alternatives to avoid starvation and that is certainly not the case here.

The only advancement of medical science that is going to make eating "meat" anything but morally repugnant is to grow it artificially in the laboratory so no animals suffer in the process.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I find the whole debate laughable in a horrific sense. We are needlessly killing innocent animals so we can needlessly kill other animals for our own selfish pleasure (food). We are supposed to be a civilised country. Until we stop needlessly imprisoning, raping, torturing, maiming and killing animals because of our own selfishness, we never will be.What about the advancement of medical science? What about us Carnivores?

In a nutshell, by eating meat, carnivores are contributing to the imprisoning, raping, torturing, maiming and killing animals to satisfy their own selfish pleasure. The only time that it is morally acceptable is in those few countries where there are no affordable alternatives to avoid starvation and that is certainly not the case here.

The only advancement of medical science that is going to make eating "meat" anything but morally repugnant is to grow it artificially in the laboratory so no animals suffer in the process."

Vaccinate.

Will never forget the screams from that poor women on the news when the men went in her house to kill her pets when the foot and mouth was going on.

What the government wasn't telling every body is its possible to still eat an animal after foot and mouth when treated by antibiotics.

What's not being told now?

I'm country born and bred and in all my years have only ever seen 2 badgers(one of which i nearly hit).

It was also said on tv yesterday that it's the cows passing it to the badgers not the other way round

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Cull or vaccinate? vaccinate... Vaccinate the cows while they're at it. End of problem..."

exactly!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I find the whole debate laughable in a horrific sense. We are needlessly killing innocent animals so we can needlessly kill other animals for our own selfish pleasure (food). We are supposed to be a civilised country. Until we stop needlessly imprisoning, raping, torturing, maiming and killing animals because of our own selfishness, we never will be.What about the advancement of medical science? What about us Carnivores?

In a nutshell, by eating meat, carnivores are contributing to the imprisoning, raping, torturing, maiming and killing animals to satisfy their own selfish pleasure. The only time that it is morally acceptable is in those few countries where there are no affordable alternatives to avoid starvation and that is certainly not the case here.

The only advancement of medical science that is going to make eating "meat" anything but morally repugnant is to grow it artificially in the laboratory so no animals suffer in the process."

Or simply by buying organic free range meat because we are hunter gatherers after all.

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By *umbriaman1962Man
over a year ago

outside of penrith

badger are funny animal to see i know where a badger set is in my field , had person from animal group checking ifworking set he told me signs to look for, yet i never seen one near set but i know there about

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By *damandeve4funCouple
over a year ago

Glasgow


"I find the whole debate laughable in a horrific sense. We are needlessly killing innocent animals so we can needlessly kill other animals for our own selfish pleasure (food). We are supposed to be a civilised country. Until we stop needlessly imprisoning, raping, torturing, maiming and killing animals because of our own selfishness, we never will be.What about the advancement of medical science? What about us Carnivores?

In a nutshell, by eating meat, carnivores are contributing to the imprisoning, raping, torturing, maiming and killing animals to satisfy their own selfish pleasure. The only time that it is morally acceptable is in those few countries where there are no affordable alternatives to avoid starvation and that is certainly not the case here.

The only advancement of medical science that is going to make eating "meat" anything but morally repugnant is to grow it artificially in the laboratory so no animals suffer in the process.

Or simply by buying organic free range meat because we are hunter gatherers after all."

If man was a natural "hunter", he would be able to catch his prey with his speedy legs, haul it down with his talon-like claws, kill with his carnivorous fangs, eat the prey raw and digest it properly with his canivorous intestinal tract. If you can do that, I will concede that man is a carnivore.

Of course, you can't because we don't have the speed to catch our prey, no claws, no fangs, herbivore teeth and a herbivore sized intestinal tract.

Man started eating meat because he was colonising areas of land where other sources of food were not plentiful or because he found dead animals lying around and realised they were a source of food if he could devise ways to catch them - and eventually farm them.

Early man had no thoughts of the pain and suffering he was causing. Of course, now we have advanced to a stage where, unlike early man, we no longer rape our wives, hang draw and quarter our prisoners or scalp our enemies. We have also advanced to a stage where the vast majority no longer need to cause pain and suffering to animals in order to feed ourselves.

There is no moral excuse anymore for causing that pain and suffering. Only selfishness and laziness. Indeed, if everyone was to give up meat, the human population would be more healthy (less heart attacks, less diabetes, less obesity, less starvation, etc, etc) and the world would be better off environmentally as it uses fewer resources (water, land, fuel, etc) to make vegan food than it does to make those feeding a meat-based diet. So much so that the World Health Organisation and the United Nations recently repeated its belief that the world needed to move to a plant-based diet if it was going to be capable of feeding its expanding population in the near future.

Indeed, the world would be a healthier place psychologically too as how it treats its animals is a mark of how advanced and civilised a nation has become. It has been shown scientifically that those who are willing to harm animals have a much greater tendency to harm their fellow human beings.

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By *umbriaman1962Man
over a year ago

outside of penrith


"I find the whole debate laughable in a horrific sense. We are needlessly killing innocent animals so we can needlessly kill other animals for our own selfish pleasure (food). We are supposed to be a civilised country. Until we stop needlessly imprisoning, raping, torturing, maiming and killing animals because of our own selfishness, we never will be.What about the advancement of medical science? What about us Carnivores?

In a nutshell, by eating meat, carnivores are contributing to the imprisoning, raping, torturing, maiming and killing animals to satisfy their own selfish pleasure. The only time that it is morally acceptable is in those few countries where there are no affordable alternatives to avoid starvation and that is certainly not the case here.

The only advancement of medical science that is going to make eating "meat" anything but morally repugnant is to grow it artificially in the laboratory so no animals suffer in the process.

Or simply by buying organic free range meat because we are hunter gatherers after all.

If man was a natural "hunter", he would be able to catch his prey with his speedy legs, haul it down with his talon-like claws, kill with his carnivorous fangs, eat the prey raw and digest it properly with his canivorous intestinal tract. If you can do that, I will concede that man is a carnivore.

Of course, you can't because we don't have the speed to catch our prey, no claws, no fangs, herbivore teeth and a herbivore sized intestinal tract.

Man started eating meat because he was colonising areas of land where other sources of food were not plentiful or because he found dead animals lying around and realised they were a source of food if he could devise ways to catch them - and eventually farm them.

Early man had no thoughts of the pain and suffering he was causing. Of course, now we have advanced to a stage where, unlike early man, we no longer rape our wives, hang draw and quarter our prisoners or scalp our enemies. We have also advanced to a stage where the vast majority no longer need to cause pain and suffering to animals in order to feed ourselves.

There is no moral excuse anymore for causing that pain and suffering. Only selfishness and laziness. Indeed, if everyone was to give up meat, the human population would be more healthy (less heart attacks, less diabetes, less obesity, less starvation, etc, etc) and the world would be better off environmentally as it uses fewer resources (water, land, fuel, etc) to make vegan food than it does to make those feeding a meat-based diet. So much so that the World Health Organisation and the United Nations recently repeated its belief that the world needed to move to a plant-based diet if it was going to be capable of feeding its expanding population in the near future.

Indeed, the world would be a healthier place psychologically too as how it treats its animals is a mark of how advanced and civilised a nation has become. It has been shown scientifically that those who are willing to harm animals have a much greater tendency to harm their fellow human beings."

what would british country side look like with no green fields?

not eating meat meens no animals in fields

if no one was eating meat there would be no livestock in fields no piont in hedges fences no where for wildlife to live .

what would lakeland fells of cumbria be like with no sheep? ( please dont say sheep can be kept just for wool cost more to shear than wool is worth to sell )

farming and livestock have shaped british country side, who put walls hedges fences there?

no one says you have to eat meat its a free country

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

vaccinate

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By *damandeve4funCouple
over a year ago

Glasgow


"I find the whole debate laughable in a horrific sense. We are needlessly killing innocent animals so we can needlessly kill other animals for our own selfish pleasure (food). We are supposed to be a civilised country. Until we stop needlessly imprisoning, raping, torturing, maiming and killing animals because of our own selfishness, we never will be.What about the advancement of medical science? What about us Carnivores?

In a nutshell, by eating meat, carnivores are contributing to the imprisoning, raping, torturing, maiming and killing animals to satisfy their own selfish pleasure. The only time that it is morally acceptable is in those few countries where there are no affordable alternatives to avoid starvation and that is certainly not the case here.

The only advancement of medical science that is going to make eating "meat" anything but morally repugnant is to grow it artificially in the laboratory so no animals suffer in the process.

Or simply by buying organic free range meat because we are hunter gatherers after all.

If man was a natural "hunter", he would be able to catch his prey with his speedy legs, haul it down with his talon-like claws, kill with his carnivorous fangs, eat the prey raw and digest it properly with his canivorous intestinal tract. If you can do that, I will concede that man is a carnivore.

Of course, you can't because we don't have the speed to catch our prey, no claws, no fangs, herbivore teeth and a herbivore sized intestinal tract.

Man started eating meat because he was colonising areas of land where other sources of food were not plentiful or because he found dead animals lying around and realised they were a source of food if he could devise ways to catch them - and eventually farm them.

Early man had no thoughts of the pain and suffering he was causing. Of course, now we have advanced to a stage where, unlike early man, we no longer rape our wives, hang draw and quarter our prisoners or scalp our enemies. We have also advanced to a stage where the vast majority no longer need to cause pain and suffering to animals in order to feed ourselves.

There is no moral excuse anymore for causing that pain and suffering. Only selfishness and laziness. Indeed, if everyone was to give up meat, the human population would be more healthy (less heart attacks, less diabetes, less obesity, less starvation, etc, etc) and the world would be better off environmentally as it uses fewer resources (water, land, fuel, etc) to make vegan food than it does to make those feeding a meat-based diet. So much so that the World Health Organisation and the United Nations recently repeated its belief that the world needed to move to a plant-based diet if it was going to be capable of feeding its expanding population in the near future.

Indeed, the world would be a healthier place psychologically too as how it treats its animals is a mark of how advanced and civilised a nation has become. It has been shown scientifically that those who are willing to harm animals have a much greater tendency to harm their fellow human beings.

what would british country side look like with no green fields?

not eating meat meens no animals in fields

if no one was eating meat there would be no livestock in fields no piont in hedges fences no where for wildlife to live .

what would lakeland fells of cumbria be like with no sheep? ( please dont say sheep can be kept just for wool cost more to shear than wool is worth to sell )

farming and livestock have shaped british country side, who put walls hedges fences there?

no one says you have to eat meat its a free country"

So your justification for us imprisoning, torturing, maiming, raping and killing animals is so our countryside can look nice? Very compassionate

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By *umbriaman1962Man
over a year ago

outside of penrith

[Removed by poster at 20/09/12 23:05:08]

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By *umbriaman1962Man
over a year ago

outside of penrith

torturing, maiming, raping ? i dont think so, modern farms be them organic non organic have more red tape inspectors etc than ever in history.

so what would happen to all cattle sheep pigs hens in the county side once you turned us into vegies

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By *damandeve4funCouple
over a year ago

Glasgow


"torturing, maiming, raping ? i dont think so, modern farms be them organic non organic have more red tape inspectors etc than ever in history.

so what would happen to all cattle sheep pigs hens in the county side once you turned us into vegies"

Raping...Dairy cows need to be kept constantly pregnant so they can produce milk. They are usually artificially inseminated. They are therefore being raped, which is basically having their sexual parts invaded without their permission and, worse still, not even by their own species. There are similar practices in the farming of other animals.

Torturing...Most dairy cows have their offspring taken away from them immediately after birth. They pine for the loss of their babies for weeks, while their babies pine for their mothers. The male offspring are then usually fattened up for veal, living solitary lives being force fed and then killed after a couple of weeks or months.

That is only one example of the torture that animals are put through for our pleasure. Factory farming, where we get most of our meat, eggs, etc, is all torture for the animals involved. The trip to the slaughterhouse is torture, research showing that they often realise what is about to happen to them, especially at the slaughterhouse, where they can hear and smell the death of their friends and family. No surprise that many try to escape.

Maiming....Cattle have their horns clipped, pigs have their tails docked, animals are castrated and branded, the list is endless, many of these processes carried out without anaesthetic.

As for what would happen to all the cattle, sheeps, pigs and hens in the countryside (remember that the vast bulk of our meat and other animal products now come from factory farms, not animals in fields). Well, what happens to them now? They are slaughtered without having been able to live out the natural lengths of their lives. They only exist because we breed them, so if we stopped breeding them, they wouldn't exist, simple.

You may suggest that these cattle, sheep, pigs and hens would rather exist for a short time than not at all. Well, imagine if some master race came to earth from another planet and decided it liked the taste of our flesh, that our skin was great for their clothes and shoes. They started breeding us in the way we breed animals, keeping us imprisoned, branding us, cutting off our sexual organs, killing us for their meat and clothing whenever they chose. I am sure you would not think then that living a short life before heading for the slaughterhouse was better than none.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

As bovine animals are in the human food chain supply and badgers aren't it should be a non-starter that we vaccinate our herds rather than rely on catching every badger to vaccinate who notoriously nocuturnal animals and difficult to find. There is a lot less badgers than there are cows and I'd hate to see them disappear from the British countryside, who knows what damage it would cause to the natural ecology without them.

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By *umbriaman1962Man
over a year ago

outside of penrith

i wish i could meet up and take you round some farms, there are 100s of people that farm as love working with animals and put a lot of work into giving them best life posible,

yes animals are kept for meat milk etc ,

but most people that farm do so because they enjoy looking after animals working out doors etc, If you had spent time in cumbria in foot and mouth time you would have seen love for animals that most farmers have , how many did every thing they could to protect animals ( that was not about money ones that lost all stock where sometimes better off as far as money )

Yes animals are kept to sell for meat but a badly looked after animal treated as you made out does not grow get fat or produce milk.

yes there are bad farmers same as bad pet owners or bad parents etc , but most that farm do so because they have a love of animals country side etc

I would never tell you that you should eat meat but i dont believe you should say others should not either

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Vvaccinate

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By *icketysplits OP   Woman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

Cull called off until next year.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Cull called off until next year."

Yesssss

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By *icketysplits OP   Woman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound


"Cull called off until next year.

Yesssss "

The Olympics and the weather are being used as reasons why the cull can't go ahead this year. There is also a side story that the numbers that need to be culled to make any difference is much greater than originally thought.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

what would british country side look like with no green fields?"

A bit like it did a couple of hundred years ago before the enclosure acts changed it beyond recognition maybe.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What a joke,they know the badgers have to be sorted but they are just delaying the inevitable,in the mean time more cattle will get tb and so will more badgers.

By the way there is no vaccine,the only one available is only 30% effective.If they do use that vaccine it also means the only way of testing for the disease has gone out the window.

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By *unky monkeyMan
over a year ago

in the night garden

Personally I would retrain them to assist the disabled.

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland


"Personally I would retrain them to assist the disabled."
brilliant business idea and thanks to you I am soaking wet... with tea spilt all over my top!!!

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By *john121Man
over a year ago

staffs


"torturing, maiming, raping ? i dont think so, modern farms be them organic non organic have more red tape inspectors etc than ever in history.

so what would happen to all cattle sheep pigs hens in the county side once you turned us into vegies

Raping...Dairy cows need to be kept constantly pregnant so they can produce milk. They are usually artificially inseminated. They are therefore being raped, which is basically having their sexual parts invaded without their permission and, worse still, not even by their own species. There are similar practices in the farming of other animals.

Torturing...Most dairy cows have their offspring taken away from them immediately after birth. They pine for the loss of their babies for weeks, while their babies pine for their mothers. The male offspring are then usually fattened up for veal, living solitary lives being force fed and then killed after a couple of weeks or months.

That is only one example of the torture that animals are put through for our pleasure. Factory farming, where we get most of our meat, eggs, etc, is all torture for the animals involved. The trip to the slaughterhouse is torture, research showing that they often realise what is about to happen to them, especially at the slaughterhouse, where they can hear and smell the death of their friends and family. No surprise that many try to escape.

Maiming....Cattle have their horns clipped, pigs have their tails docked, animals are castrated and branded, the list is endless, many of these processes carried out without anaesthetic.

As for what would happen to all the cattle, sheeps, pigs and hens in the countryside (remember that the vast bulk of our meat and other animal products now come from factory farms, not animals in fields). Well, what happens to them now? They are slaughtered without having been able to live out the natural lengths of their lives. They only exist because we breed them, so if we stopped breeding them, they wouldn't exist, simple.

You may suggest that these cattle, sheep, pigs and hens would rather exist for a short time than not at all. Well, imagine if some master race came to earth from another planet and decided it liked the taste of our flesh, that our skin was great for their clothes and shoes. They started breeding us in the way we breed animals, keeping us imprisoned, branding us, cutting off our sexual organs, killing us for their meat and clothing whenever they chose. I am sure you would not think then that living a short life before heading for the slaughterhouse was better than none.

"

This did make me chuckle! Such story line! Clearly a veggie from the planet potato!

Man has eaten and caught meet from the very start.

Shellfish, fish, fruit, nuts, seeds and their version of road kill (scraps left by carnivores or simply dead animals oh and other humanoids!) were all on the menu!

We learnt to kill not just for food but for their skins and other useful parts, as was demonstrated in last nights BBC2 9pm prog reconstructing neandathol man.

Isn't it said that cattle etc produce the most/more greenhouse gases....

Just imagine if we all just consumed nothing but veggies!! Phew! Doesn't bear thinking about!

As for being healthier well sorry but as much as I like veggies desires, craves and needs a little meat now and then, mostly chicken and fish I hasten to add.

Of course the animal cruelty side of things is a whole different kettle of fish!

Where do you draw the line?

Eg:

Line court fish or nets?

Organic seems to be the way but we still have death at the end if it...

We make the distinction as being the top species in our world that if an animal suffers we will put it down, why? Because we don't believe in suffering, but in the natural world nature is extreme and a mother bear will even leave a sickly cub to fend for its self...

They have instinct and have to think about survival..

We help where we can.

We farm to survive as there is no real need to be hunter gatherers in the full sense of the statement, of course some still have too and will kill and eat just about anything that crawls, swims, flies or walks!

As for badgers if there's a link between a heard and a set then cull as there is no current vaccine..

Temple Grandin recognised that animal husbandry was essential to humanely looking after and slaughtering cattle, she is autistic.

Well worth reading about.

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By *els_BellsWoman
over a year ago

with the moon n stars somewhere in gtr manc

Interestingly enough, 2 men were arrested for badger baiting up here the past couple of days. I get the difference between baiting and culling, but still interesting that they could face prosecution for tampering with a badger's set.

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By *john121Man
over a year ago

staffs


"Interestingly enough, 2 men were arrested for badger baiting up here the past couple of days. I get the difference between baiting and culling, but still interesting that they could face prosecution for tampering with a badger's set. "

Pretty obvious why really!!

Decently lengthy sentence required!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Please look up save me on fb, Brian May runs in and as an experianced scientist he can give you all the facts on that page. Anyone in doubt please join it and read it. Thankyou xx "

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

Which option will stop them crossing the road at night?

They make a right dent in ya' bumper.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Cull

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Cull or vaccinate?"

vaccinate every time.

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By *els_BellsWoman
over a year ago

with the moon n stars somewhere in gtr manc


"Interestingly enough, 2 men were arrested for badger baiting up here the past couple of days. I get the difference between baiting and culling, but still interesting that they could face prosecution for tampering with a badger's set.

Pretty obvious why really!!

Decently lengthy sentence required!!"

My thoughts exactly! But really dont get the whole cull/vaccnate thng.

As aforementioned, I'm a true city girl and have only seen badgers on tv at Centre Parcs.

I have only ever seen 2 wild foxes in my life, so I admit I am totally ignorant to culling/vaccinating/leave be.

I dont know enough about tb etc to say to cull them, but found the badger baiting case interesting.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Interestingly enough, 2 men were arrested for badger baiting up here the past couple of days. I get the difference between baiting and culling, but still interesting that they could face prosecution for tampering with a badger's set. "

definitely think its wrong to play with a badgers set...regardless of its sex

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By *els_BellsWoman
over a year ago

with the moon n stars somewhere in gtr manc


"Interestingly enough, 2 men were arrested for badger baiting up here the past couple of days. I get the difference between baiting and culling, but still interesting that they could face prosecution for tampering with a badger's set.

definitely think its wrong to play with a badgers set...regardless of its sex"

When i posted, I did think 'ooo errr matron' (carry on style) but ddnt think anyone would get it lol

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"torturing, maiming, raping ? i dont think so, modern farms be them organic non organic have more red tape inspectors etc than ever in history.

so what would happen to all cattle sheep pigs hens in the county side once you turned us into vegies

Raping...Dairy cows need to be kept constantly pregnant so they can produce milk. They are usually artificially inseminated. They are therefore being raped, which is basically having their sexual parts invaded without their permission and, worse still, not even by their own species. There are similar practices in the farming of other animals.

Torturing...Most dairy cows have their offspring taken away from them immediately after birth. They pine for the loss of their babies for weeks, while their babies pine for their mothers. The male offspring are then usually fattened up for veal, living solitary lives being force fed and then killed after a couple of weeks or months.

That is only one example of the torture that animals are put through for our pleasure. Factory farming, where we get most of our meat, eggs, etc, is all torture for the animals involved. The trip to the slaughterhouse is torture, research showing that they often realise what is about to happen to them, especially at the slaughterhouse, where they can hear and smell the death of their friends and family. No surprise that many try to escape.

Maiming....Cattle have their horns clipped, pigs have their tails docked, animals are castrated and branded, the list is endless, many of these processes carried out without anaesthetic.

As for what would happen to all the cattle, sheeps, pigs and hens in the countryside (remember that the vast bulk of our meat and other animal products now come from factory farms, not animals in fields). Well, what happens to them now? They are slaughtered without having been able to live out the natural lengths of their lives. They only exist because we breed them, so if we stopped breeding them, they wouldn't exist, simple.

You may suggest that these cattle, sheep, pigs and hens would rather exist for a short time than not at all. Well, imagine if some master race came to earth from another planet and decided it liked the taste of our flesh, that our skin was great for their clothes and shoes. They started breeding us in the way we breed animals, keeping us imprisoned, branding us, cutting off our sexual organs, killing us for their meat and clothing whenever they chose. I am sure you would not think then that living a short life before heading for the slaughterhouse was better than none.

"

Mental

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"torturing, maiming, raping ? i dont think so, modern farms be them organic non organic have more red tape inspectors etc than ever in history.

so what would happen to all cattle sheep pigs hens in the county side once you turned us into vegies

Raping...Dairy cows need to be kept constantly pregnant so they can produce milk. They are usually artificially inseminated. They are therefore being raped, which is basically having their sexual parts invaded without their permission and, worse still, not even by their own species. There are similar practices in the farming of other animals.

Torturing...Most dairy cows have their offspring taken away from them immediately after birth. They pine for the loss of their babies for weeks, while their babies pine for their mothers. The male offspring are then usually fattened up for veal, living solitary lives being force fed and then killed after a couple of weeks or months.

That is only one example of the torture that animals are put through for our pleasure. Factory farming, where we get most of our meat, eggs, etc, is all torture for the animals involved. The trip to the slaughterhouse is torture, research showing that they often realise what is about to happen to them, especially at the slaughterhouse, where they can hear and smell the death of their friends and family. No surprise that many try to escape.

Maiming....Cattle have their horns clipped, pigs have their tails docked, animals are castrated and branded, the list is endless, many of these processes carried out without anaesthetic.

As for what would happen to all the cattle, sheeps, pigs and hens in the countryside (remember that the vast bulk of our meat and other animal products now come from factory farms, not animals in fields). Well, what happens to them now? They are slaughtered without having been able to live out the natural lengths of their lives. They only exist because we breed them, so if we stopped breeding them, they wouldn't exist, simple.

You may suggest that these cattle, sheep, pigs and hens would rather exist for a short time than not at all. Well, imagine if some master race came to earth from another planet and decided it liked the taste of our flesh, that our skin was great for their clothes and shoes. They started breeding us in the way we breed animals, keeping us imprisoned, branding us, cutting off our sexual organs, killing us for their meat and clothing whenever they chose. I am sure you would not think then that living a short life before heading for the slaughterhouse was better than none.

Mental"

I'm getting solar panels attached to my forehead...I cant stand to eat another plant or animal, so I will therefore also live in a bubble.

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By *andyguy59Man
over a year ago

Gatwick

"Cull or vaccinate?"

Well until someone does some properly controlled trials (which I don't think have been done) We won't know if either will work.

Vaccinate must be preferable to Cull, but I doubt if either will give the results the Country needs...

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By *icketysplits OP   Woman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

Panorama is covering this tonight. It's a bit of a mixed view so far.

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

It's probably as simple as cows are worth money and badgers aren't ('cept for the mask) so cows will win out eventually.

Might be an idea to start now.

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By *icketysplits OP   Woman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

They're starting tomorrow.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Cull or vaccinate? vaccinate... Vaccinate the cows while they're at it. End of problem..."

doesn't work:-its been tried

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I have a question:-how do you ensure you vaccinate enough badgers to give them "herd immunity" we can't seem to do it with people hence the current measles problem,that shows you only have to miss a few per cent for an epidemic to start

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By *icketysplits OP   Woman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound


"I have a question:-how do you ensure you vaccinate enough badgers to give them "herd immunity" we can't seem to do it with people hence the current measles problem,that shows you only have to miss a few per cent for an epidemic to start"

How do you cull enough to make the risk of Bovine TB negligible?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

if god had wanted us to be vegetarian he wouldn't have made meat so tasty!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm sure it’s value will be contested by those who oppose it, but the reality of living in a consumer led nation will create a general apathy amongst a larger swathe of society….

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I have a question:-how do you ensure you vaccinate enough badgers to give them "herd immunity" we can't seem to do it with people hence the current measles problem,that shows you only have to miss a few per cent for an epidemic to start

How do you cull enough to make the risk of Bovine TB negligible? "

I think shooting is the wron way,gassing would be a better more humane way,less chance of injured/maimed animals surviving in pain from wounds

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"How do you cull enough to make the risk of Bovine TB negligible? "

I don't think they know,that's why they are trialing in 2 areas

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By *nfieldishCouple
over a year ago

Enfield

Vaccinate.....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Vaccinate. I heard a report on the radio where it was stated that the cull of infected animals would have to continue for around 20 years for bovine TB to be irradicated from the badger population. Cattle could still catch TB by other methods

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By *icketysplits OP   Woman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound


"Vaccinate. I heard a report on the radio where it was stated that the cull of infected animals would have to continue for around 20 years for bovine TB to be irradicated from the badger population. Cattle could still catch TB by other methods"

Including other cattle.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham


"I have a question:-how do you ensure you vaccinate enough badgers to give them "herd immunity" we can't seem to do it with people hence the current measles problem,that shows you only have to miss a few per cent for an epidemic to start"

i thought they were vaccinating the cattle

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By *icketysplits OP   Woman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound


"I have a question:-how do you ensure you vaccinate enough badgers to give them "herd immunity" we can't seem to do it with people hence the current measles problem,that shows you only have to miss a few per cent for an epidemic to start

i thought they were vaccinating the cattle "

Two culling trials start tomorrow morning.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham


"I have a question:-how do you ensure you vaccinate enough badgers to give them "herd immunity" we can't seem to do it with people hence the current measles problem,that shows you only have to miss a few per cent for an epidemic to start

i thought they were vaccinating the cattle

Two culling trials start tomorrow morning."

no - i know the culing is taking place because develping the vacine would be very costly but the post i quoted said thety were thinking of vaccinating the badgers not the cattle, thats what confused me

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By *icketysplits OP   Woman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound


"I have a question:-how do you ensure you vaccinate enough badgers to give them "herd immunity" we can't seem to do it with people hence the current measles problem,that shows you only have to miss a few per cent for an epidemic to start

i thought they were vaccinating the cattle

Two culling trials start tomorrow morning.

no - i know the culing is taking place because develping the vacine would be very costly but the post i quoted said thety were thinking of vaccinating the badgers not the cattle, thats what confused me"

Ah!

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