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"To Women of the UK. Do you think the culture as a whole is a culture that traditionally has liking for women? " I personally love women. I think they are great, both in and out of the bedroom. I even prefer female company socially and have much respect and admiration for them | |||
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"To Women of the UK. Do you think the culture as a whole is a culture that traditionally has liking for women? I personally love women. I think they are great, both in and out of the bedroom. I even prefer female company socially and have much respect and admiration for them" All of them? | |||
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"I’m still sipping coffee and I don’t totally understand the question? X maybe I need to wake up properly x Can you go deeper? What do you mean exactly x" Contribute just how the OP etc would make you want to. It stands as it is. | |||
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"To Women of the UK. Do you think the culture as a whole is a culture that traditionally has liking for women? I personally love women. I think they are great, both in and out of the bedroom. I even prefer female company socially and have much respect and admiration for them All of them?" Well, most of the ones that I’ve met and chatted to both in the scene and out. Obviously there are some that I wouldn’t give the time of day to but I wouldn’t then socialise with them anyway. I would rather go out with a group of girls than a group of men though | |||
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 Interesting question OP! | |||
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"I’m still sipping coffee and I don’t totally understand the question? X maybe I need to wake up properly x Can you go deeper? What do you mean exactly x" Yeah, I'm struggling with the question too. I think he might be asking whether people feel the UK is misogynistic, which it very openly and obviously is. | |||
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"To Women of the UK. Do you think the culture as a whole is a culture that traditionally has liking for women? " No, definitely not | |||
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"I mean look at the tampon tax as an example.. Or female mutilation... The sexual pressure that is placed on our (female) children.. The fact that men don't r*pe women... the blame culture (she was asking for it).. Domestic violence which is factually mostly caused by men on women... The fact that i will be paid less than my male colleagues regardless of my ability and the fact that my male colleague is way more likely to get the promotion than me where we are equally or better talented Gosh so many examples " Good examples Midnight, I've been thinking about modern examples of "disliking" women and this covers them.  | |||
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"I'm not sure if it's down to the UK really. Perhaps culturally we do look down on women somewhat? Western culture encourages women to see other women as competition, we're taught we have to be better than others to attract the man, to have the children with the house and the perfect marriage, rather than focusing on bettering ourselves, lifting others up etc. If you look through history, literature, a woman's value was oft placed on the man she dated/married so it's not surprising there's lingering, archaic beliefs held. Women were seen as being the property of the man, first her father's and then her husband's (dowry, asking father for permission to be married etc), as wombs to be used to bring heirs and a workforce into society. If women didn't follow those things they were ostracized, given the spinster trope, the crazy cat lady, caricatured in novels a la Miss Havisham. The good women were the dutiful wives, the ones who obeyed. Those who spoke out were the witches, the bitter maidens yadda yadda. Look at how sexuality of women is treated - from the Victorian beliefs surrounding "hysteria" and orgasms to the current onus on the female victim to have done things differently. The whole slut, virgin Mary dichotomy. So erm... I'm not sure. Traditionally, perhaps not. Is there more value placed on women now? Perhaps. Attitudes towards women are slowly changing. There's more solidarity amongst women in certain pockets. More women stepping off the life escalator of expectations and doing their own thing without ridicule. I want to be liked by those I liked. I don't want to be disliked on the whole, not because I'm a woman certainly. I'm not sure if this is early morning rambling, I'm waiting for my Starbucks. Interesting question OP!"Well wrote and explained, the labels trends,forms styles are set and being set under our noses, For the masses so we play our part willingly. Lol | |||
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"I mean look at the tampon tax as an example.. Or female mutilation... The sexual pressure that is placed on our (female) children.. The fact that men don't r*pe women... the blame culture (she was asking for it).. Domestic violence which is factually mostly caused by men on women... The fact that i will be paid less than my male colleagues regardless of my ability and the fact that my male colleague is way more likely to get the promotion than me where we are equally or better talented Gosh so many examples Good examples Midnight, I've been thinking about modern examples of "disliking" women and this covers them. "Thanks Meli, i got quite worked up and realised i wa getting ranty lol so i had a cool down | |||
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"I mean look at the tampon tax as an example.. Or female mutilation... The sexual pressure that is placed on our (female) children.. The fact that men don't r*pe women... the blame culture (she was asking for it).. Domestic violence which is factually mostly caused by men on women... The fact that i will be paid less than my male colleagues regardless of my ability and the fact that my male colleague is way more likely to get the promotion than me where we are equally or better talented Gosh so many examples Good examples Midnight, I've been thinking about modern examples of "disliking" women and this covers them.
Thanks Meli, i got quite worked up and realised i wa getting ranty lol so i had a cool down "Some things need to be ranted about more | |||
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"I would say looking at the glass ceiling and equality... and considering how women are treated generally by society and the government that perhaps whilst we are liked, we are not 'valued'.. Most especially by men" To me the idea of like is linked to the idea of value..I like something so I value it..that is as natural to me as breathing. SO where does the disconnect lay in those who like women but do not value them? What type of person is that!? Your thoughts about that are welcome as are the thoughts of ALL others on here. | |||
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"To Women of the UK. Do you think the culture as a whole is a culture that traditionally has liking for women? " No, I think they’re mostly used  | |||
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"I'm not sure if it's down to the UK really. Perhaps culturally we do look down on women somewhat? Western culture encourages women to see other women as competition, we're taught we have to be better than others to attract the man, to have the children with the house and the perfect marriage, rather than focusing on bettering ourselves, lifting others up etc. If you look through history, literature, a woman's value was oft placed on the man she dated/married so it's not surprising there's lingering, archaic beliefs held. Women were seen as being the property of the man, first her father's and then her husband's (dowry, asking father for permission to be married etc), as wombs to be used to bring heirs and a workforce into society. If women didn't follow those things they were ostracized, given the spinster trope, the crazy cat lady, caricatured in novels a la Miss Havisham. The good women were the dutiful wives, the ones who obeyed. Those who spoke out were the witches, the bitter maidens yadda yadda. Look at how sexuality of women is treated - from the Victorian beliefs surrounding "hysteria" and orgasms to the current onus on the female victim to have done things differently. The whole slut, virgin Mary dichotomy. So erm... I'm not sure. Traditionally, perhaps not. Is there more value placed on women now? Perhaps. Attitudes towards women are slowly changing. There's more solidarity amongst women in certain pockets. More women stepping off the life escalator of expectations and doing their own thing without ridicule. I want to be liked by those I liked. I don't want to be disliked on the whole, not because I'm a woman certainly. I'm not sure if this is early morning rambling, I'm waiting for my Starbucks. Interesting question OP!"That WAS a very good kick-start! | |||
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"Yes as a woman in the UK I feel liked and respected majority of the time "How does that like and respect for you manifest itself? What happens to you? | |||
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"To Women of the UK. Do you think the culture as a whole is a culture that traditionally has liking for women? No, definitely not" Why not? (in your opinion) | |||
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"I would say looking at the glass ceiling and equality... and considering how women are treated generally by society and the government that perhaps whilst we are liked, we are not 'valued'.. Most especially by men To me the idea of like is linked to the idea of value..I like something so I value it..that is as natural to me as breathing. SO where does the disconnect lay in those who like women but do not value them? What type of person is that!? Your thoughts about that are welcome as are the thoughts of ALL others on here. " So we like it, but not enough! I think it is engrained in society - look at some of the themes Meli brought out about a female being someones property and traded through marriage... So similar value to bartering for a farm animal  .. And we continue to perpetuate it today... being 'given away' literally, when we get married... Being given station and identity by taking on the male name... Which is clearly more important than our own and all about 'survival'.... Men don't even have to think about this, its a given by society that the male is more important ... It took me a year to adapt to my marrird name, i totally lost my identity and 'who' i was
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"I mean look at the tampon tax as an example.. Or female mutilation... The sexual pressure that is placed on our (female) children.. The fact that men don't r*pe women... the blame culture (she was asking for it).. Domestic violence which is factually mostly caused by men on women... The fact that i will be paid less than my male colleagues regardless of my ability and the fact that my male colleague is way more likely to get the promotion than me where we are equally or better talented Gosh so many examples Good examples Midnight, I've been thinking about modern examples of "disliking" women and this covers them.
Thanks Meli, i got quite worked up and realised i wa getting ranty lol so i had a cool down
Some things need to be ranted about more"There is no such thing as a rant today. | |||
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"I mean look at the tampon tax as an example.. Or female mutilation... The sexual pressure that is placed on our (female) children.. The fact that men don't r*pe women... the blame culture (she was asking for it).. Domestic violence which is factually mostly caused by men on women... The fact that i will be paid less than my male colleagues regardless of my ability and the fact that my male colleague is way more likely to get the promotion than me where we are equally or better talented Gosh so many examples Good examples Midnight, I've been thinking about modern examples of "disliking" women and this covers them.
Thanks Meli, i got quite worked up and realised i wa getting ranty lol so i had a cool down
Some things need to be ranted about more"Thanks I've not even had a coffee yet
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"I would say looking at the glass ceiling and equality... and considering how women are treated generally by society and the government that perhaps whilst we are liked, we are not 'valued'.. Most especially by men To me the idea of like is linked to the idea of value..I like something so I value it..that is as natural to me as breathing. SO where does the disconnect lay in those who like women but do not value them? What type of person is that!? Your thoughts about that are welcome as are the thoughts of ALL others on here. So we like it, but not enough! I think it is engrained in society - look at some of the themes Meli brought out about a female being someones property and traded through marriage... So similar value to bartering for a farm animal .. And we continue to perpetuate it today... being 'given away' literally, when we get married... Being given station and identity by taking on the male name... Which is clearly more important than our own and all about 'survival'.... Men don't even have to think about this, its a given by society that the male is more important ... It took me a year to adapt to my marrird name, i totally lost my identity and 'who' i was
"That's an amazing reply! I've never been married and your example has NEVER crossed my mind! | |||
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"I would say looking at the glass ceiling and equality... and considering how women are treated generally by society and the government that perhaps whilst we are liked, we are not 'valued'.. Most especially by men To me the idea of like is linked to the idea of value..I like something so I value it..that is as natural to me as breathing. SO where does the disconnect lay in those who like women but do not value them? What type of person is that!? Your thoughts about that are welcome as are the thoughts of ALL others on here. So we like it, but not enough! I think it is engrained in society - look at some of the themes Meli brought out about a female being someones property and traded through marriage... So similar value to bartering for a farm animal .. And we continue to perpetuate it today... being 'given away' literally, when we get married... Being given station and identity by taking on the male name... Which is clearly more important than our own and all about 'survival'.... Men don't even have to think about this, its a given by society that the male is more important ... It took me a year to adapt to my marrird name, i totally lost my identity and 'who' i was
That's an amazing reply! I've never been married and your example has NEVER crossed my mind!
"Genuinely, it's because you are a man that you do not even have to think about this, you are conditioned from birth.. It is your entitlement. It's a really good example of 'privilege'.. And why its so hard for a privileged gender /race to see 'the' issue  | |||
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"I mean look at the tampon tax as an example.. Or female mutilation... The sexual pressure that is placed on our (female) children.. The fact that men don't r*pe women... the blame culture (she was asking for it).. Domestic violence which is factually mostly caused by men on women... The fact that i will be paid less than my male colleagues regardless of my ability and the fact that my male colleague is way more likely to get the promotion than me where we are equally or better talented Gosh so many examples Good examples Midnight, I've been thinking about modern examples of "disliking" women and this covers them. "I want to add something to that. Men or women that like to use women to make money for them but ONLY truly value them for that money. I'm thinking of the traditional brothel establishment. How much impact do you think such places may have/had impact on things in the area of our discussion. Would such places promote a liking for Women? | |||
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"I would say looking at the glass ceiling and equality... and considering how women are treated generally by society and the government that perhaps whilst we are liked, we are not 'valued'.. Most especially by men To me the idea of like is linked to the idea of value..I like something so I value it..that is as natural to me as breathing. SO where does the disconnect lay in those who like women but do not value them? What type of person is that!? Your thoughts about that are welcome as are the thoughts of ALL others on here. So we like it, but not enough! I think it is engrained in society - look at some of the themes Meli brought out about a female being someones property and traded through marriage... So similar value to bartering for a farm animal .. And we continue to perpetuate it today... being 'given away' literally, when we get married... Being given station and identity by taking on the male name... Which is clearly more important than our own and all about 'survival'.... Men don't even have to think about this, its a given by society that the male is more important ... It took me a year to adapt to my marrird name, i totally lost my identity and 'who' i was
That's an amazing reply! I've never been married and your example has NEVER crossed my mind!
Genuinely, it's because you are a man that you do not even have to think about this, you are conditioned from birth.. It is your entitlement. It's a really good example of 'privilege'.. And why its so hard for a privileged gender /race to see 'the' issue "OK..let me find my feet..this IS the time to realise I wrote I have never been married so would have had no cause to think on such a thing. Inexperience is not privilege. A way should then be made for those who do get married to retain both names (I think some do) as for the rest we can sort them out as we go along | |||
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"I mean look at the tampon tax as an example.. Or female mutilation... The sexual pressure that is placed on our (female) children.. The fact that men don't r*pe women... the blame culture (she was asking for it).. Domestic violence which is factually mostly caused by men on women... The fact that i will be paid less than my male colleagues regardless of my ability and the fact that my male colleague is way more likely to get the promotion than me where we are equally or better talented Gosh so many examples Good examples Midnight, I've been thinking about modern examples of "disliking" women and this covers them. I want to add something to that.
Men or women that like to use women to make money for them but ONLY truly value them for that money.
I'm thinking of the traditional brothel establishment.
How much impact do you think such places may have/had impact on things in the area of our discussion.
Would such places promote a liking for Women?"Well at least in a brothel a woman is paid for services rendered and it's an honest transaction (well hopefully they are there by choice and are not trafficked or co-erced) You will be amazed at how many girls have been sexually abused through early to late adult years.. We don't report it, because men don't believe it ... It's just a bit of fun that is misunderstood I don't actually think brothels have much weight overall | |||
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"To Women of the UK. Do you think the culture as a whole is a culture that traditionally has liking for women? " Liked, yes. | |||
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"I would say looking at the glass ceiling and equality... and considering how women are treated generally by society and the government that perhaps whilst we are liked, we are not 'valued'.. Most especially by men To me the idea of like is linked to the idea of value..I like something so I value it..that is as natural to me as breathing. SO where does the disconnect lay in those who like women but do not value them? What type of person is that!? Your thoughts about that are welcome as are the thoughts of ALL others on here. So we like it, but not enough! I think it is engrained in society - look at some of the themes Meli brought out about a female being someones property and traded through marriage... So similar value to bartering for a farm animal .. And we continue to perpetuate it today... being 'given away' literally, when we get married... Being given station and identity by taking on the male name... Which is clearly more important than our own and all about 'survival'.... Men don't even have to think about this, its a given by society that the male is more important ... It took me a year to adapt to my marrird name, i totally lost my identity and 'who' i was
That's an amazing reply! I've never been married and your example has NEVER crossed my mind!
Genuinely, it's because you are a man that you do not even have to think about this, you are conditioned from birth.. It is your entitlement. It's a really good example of 'privilege'.. And why its so hard for a privileged gender /race to see 'the' issue OK..let me find my feet..this IS the time to realise I wrote I have never been married so would have had no cause to think on such a thing.
Inexperience is not privilege.
A way should then be made for those who do get married to retain both names (I think some do) as for the rest we can sort them out as we go along
"Wel double barrelled isn't quite the point | |||
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"Women might well be liked, they are used to sell everything from cars to loo roll. Sadly they are most certainly not always valued. Gender pay gap. Victim shaming. The beauty industry with all the marketing and media which plays on making insecurities worse to make money. Outdated opinions still being accepted. Misogyny is still alive and well. The costs for female specific products bring higher than the same products for men. Period poverty. I could go on and I'm sure many people could add so much more. " I'm glad you called the beauty industry out here! | |||
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"I would say looking at the glass ceiling and equality... and considering how women are treated generally by society and the government that perhaps whilst we are liked, we are not 'valued'.. Most especially by men To me the idea of like is linked to the idea of value..I like something so I value it..that is as natural to me as breathing. SO where does the disconnect lay in those who like women but do not value them? What type of person is that!? Your thoughts about that are welcome as are the thoughts of ALL others on here. So we like it, but not enough! I think it is engrained in society - look at some of the themes Meli brought out about a female being someones property and traded through marriage... So similar value to bartering for a farm animal .. And we continue to perpetuate it today... being 'given away' literally, when we get married... Being given station and identity by taking on the male name... Which is clearly more important than our own and all about 'survival'.... Men don't even have to think about this, its a given by society that the male is more important ... It took me a year to adapt to my marrird name, i totally lost my identity and 'who' i was
That's an amazing reply! I've never been married and your example has NEVER crossed my mind!
Genuinely, it's because you are a man that you do not even have to think about this, you are conditioned from birth.. It is your entitlement. It's a really good example of 'privilege'.. And why its so hard for a privileged gender /race to see 'the' issue OK..let me find my feet..this IS the time to realise I wrote I have never been married so would have had no cause to think on such a thing.
Inexperience is not privilege.
A way should then be made for those who do get married to retain both names (I think some do) as for the rest we can sort them out as we go along
Wel double barrelled isn't quite the point "Interestingly, it’s very uncommon in Italy for the woman to take her husbands name when they get married. My first wife didn’t take mine, I don’t really see the point of it. Well I see that it’s an archaic form of taking ownership of someone, but not otherwise | |||
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"I'm thinking of the traditional brothel establishment. How much impact do you think such places may have/had impact on things in the area of our discussion. Would such places promote a liking for Women?" I'm not sure they would. On one hand it's perpetuating the idea that women and their bodies have a price attached to them, can be bought as long as it's high enough. On the other (that's a lot less sex worker shaming), it's providing a connection with women, it's a transparent transaction and the woman has made the choice. A man could value and respect a woman's right to decide what to do with her body. However, you then enter the whole - how much choice is sex work? I have friends who are intelligent, multiple degree owning sex workers who choose to do so with privilege behind them. What about those who do so who don't have such opportunities? Will they be afforded the same value by men? This is fascinating OP, I'm clearly enjoying this thread way too much. | |||
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"I would say looking at the glass ceiling and equality... and considering how women are treated generally by society and the government that perhaps whilst we are liked, we are not 'valued'.. Most especially by men To me the idea of like is linked to the idea of value..I like something so I value it..that is as natural to me as breathing. SO where does the disconnect lay in those who like women but do not value them? What type of person is that!? Your thoughts about that are welcome as are the thoughts of ALL others on here. So we like it, but not enough! I think it is engrained in society - look at some of the themes Meli brought out about a female being someones property and traded through marriage... So similar value to bartering for a farm animal .. And we continue to perpetuate it today... being 'given away' literally, when we get married... Being given station and identity by taking on the male name... Which is clearly more important than our own and all about 'survival'.... Men don't even have to think about this, its a given by society that the male is more important ... It took me a year to adapt to my marrird name, i totally lost my identity and 'who' i was
That's an amazing reply! I've never been married and your example has NEVER crossed my mind!
Genuinely, it's because you are a man that you do not even have to think about this, you are conditioned from birth.. It is your entitlement. It's a really good example of 'privilege'.. And why its so hard for a privileged gender /race to see 'the' issue OK..let me find my feet..this IS the time to realise I wrote I have never been married so would have had no cause to think on such a thing.
Inexperience is not privilege.
A way should then be made for those who do get married to retain both names (I think some do) as for the rest we can sort them out as we go along
Wel double barrelled isn't quite the point " I know, but done for the reason of an equal standing name-share it is.
Now, what others did you mention and who needs to be tackled to create chinks in that armour? | |||
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"I’m still sipping coffee and I don’t totally understand the question? X maybe I need to wake up properly x Can you go deeper? What do you mean exactly x Contribute just how the OP etc would make you want to. It stands as it is." Eh? | |||
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"I'm not sure if it's down to the UK really. Perhaps culturally we do look down on women somewhat? Western culture encourages women to see other women as competition, we're taught we have to be better than others to attract the man, to have the children with the house and the perfect marriage, rather than focusing on bettering ourselves, lifting others up etc. If you look through history, literature, a woman's value was oft placed on the man she dated/married so it's not surprising there's lingering, archaic beliefs held. Women were seen as being the property of the man, first her father's and then her husband's (dowry, asking father for permission to be married etc), as wombs to be used to bring heirs and a workforce into society. If women didn't follow those things they were ostracized, given the spinster trope, the crazy cat lady, caricatured in novels a la Miss Havisham. The good women were the dutiful wives, the ones who obeyed. Those who spoke out were the witches, the bitter maidens yadda yadda. Look at how sexuality of women is treated - from the Victorian beliefs surrounding "hysteria" and orgasms to the current onus on the female victim to have done things differently. The whole slut, virgin Mary dichotomy. So erm... I'm not sure. Traditionally, perhaps not. Is there more value placed on women now? Perhaps. Attitudes towards women are slowly changing. There's more solidarity amongst women in certain pockets. More women stepping off the life escalator of expectations and doing their own thing without ridicule. I want to be liked by those I liked. I don't want to be disliked on the whole, not because I'm a woman certainly. I'm not sure if this is early morning rambling, I'm waiting for my Starbucks. Interesting question OP!"what _eli said! Also it's really hard to see the faults in a culture until you are shown a different way. There are very few female led societies so we have no proper comparisons to look at. That's why feminist thinking is vital. It gives a counterpoint to highlight deficiencies in thinking. If you ask for female equality then you will never achieve it. The only way to get equality is to aim for female superiority and to then settle for equality | |||
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"I would say looking at the glass ceiling and equality... and considering how women are treated generally by society and the government that perhaps whilst we are liked, we are not 'valued'.. Most especially by men To me the idea of like is linked to the idea of value..I like something so I value it..that is as natural to me as breathing. SO where does the disconnect lay in those who like women but do not value them? What type of person is that!? Your thoughts about that are welcome as are the thoughts of ALL others on here. So we like it, but not enough! I think it is engrained in society - look at some of the themes Meli brought out about a female being someones property and traded through marriage... So similar value to bartering for a farm animal .. And we continue to perpetuate it today... being 'given away' literally, when we get married... Being given station and identity by taking on the male name... Which is clearly more important than our own and all about 'survival'.... Men don't even have to think about this, its a given by society that the male is more important ... It took me a year to adapt to my marrird name, i totally lost my identity and 'who' i was
That's an amazing reply! I've never been married and your example has NEVER crossed my mind!
Genuinely, it's because you are a man that you do not even have to think about this, you are conditioned from birth.. It is your entitlement. It's a really good example of 'privilege'.. And why its so hard for a privileged gender /race to see 'the' issue OK..let me find my feet..this IS the time to realise I wrote I have never been married so would have had no cause to think on such a thing.
Inexperience is not privilege.
A way should then be made for those who do get married to retain both names (I think some do) as for the rest we can sort them out as we go along
Wel double barrelled isn't quite the point
Interestingly, it’s very uncommon in Italy for the woman to take her husbands name when they get married. My first wife didn’t take mine, I don’t really see the point of it. Well I see that it’s an archaic form of taking ownership of someone, but not otherwise "This is an excellent point.. I am showing my own privilege and replying as somone born and residing in the UK  | |||
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"I'm thinking of the traditional brothel establishment. How much impact do you think such places may have/had impact on things in the area of our discussion. Would such places promote a liking for Women? I'm not sure they would. On one hand it's perpetuating the idea that women and their bodies have a price attached to them, can be bought as long as it's high enough. On the other (that's a lot less sex worker shaming), it's providing a connection with women, it's a transparent transaction and the woman has made the choice. A man could value and respect a woman's right to decide what to do with her body. However, you then enter the whole - how much choice is sex work? I have friends who are intelligent, multiple degree owning sex workers who choose to do so with privilege behind them. What about those who do so who don't have such opportunities? Will they be afforded the same value by men? This is fascinating OP, I'm clearly enjoying this thread way too much. " Enjoy away, your contribution is helpful..anything that can spark anybody off to make a good change! | |||
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"I would say looking at the glass ceiling and equality... and considering how women are treated generally by society and the government that perhaps whilst we are liked, we are not 'valued'.. Most especially by men To me the idea of like is linked to the idea of value..I like something so I value it..that is as natural to me as breathing. SO where does the disconnect lay in those who like women but do not value them? What type of person is that!? Your thoughts about that are welcome as are the thoughts of ALL others on here. So we like it, but not enough! I think it is engrained in society - look at some of the themes Meli brought out about a female being someones property and traded through marriage... So similar value to bartering for a farm animal .. And we continue to perpetuate it today... being 'given away' literally, when we get married... Being given station and identity by taking on the male name... Which is clearly more important than our own and all about 'survival'.... Men don't even have to think about this, its a given by society that the male is more important ... It took me a year to adapt to my marrird name, i totally lost my identity and 'who' i was
That's an amazing reply! I've never been married and your example has NEVER crossed my mind!
Genuinely, it's because you are a man that you do not even have to think about this, you are conditioned from birth.. It is your entitlement. It's a really good example of 'privilege'.. And why its so hard for a privileged gender /race to see 'the' issue OK..let me find my feet..this IS the time to realise I wrote I have never been married so would have had no cause to think on such a thing.
Inexperience is not privilege.
A way should then be made for those who do get married to retain both names (I think some do) as for the rest we can sort them out as we go along
Wel double barrelled isn't quite the point I know, but done for the reason of an equal standing name-share it is.
Now, what others did you mention and who needs to be tackled to create chinks in that armour?"Ok.. So which name first. . Mine or yours?? I'll choose.. We'll be midnight-huey Now our children are going to marry Jack -_eli children Are they going to be midnight-huey-jack -_eli?? What about when their children marry? First thing that happens.. It gets shortened to the first name... Guess whose that usually is.. Yeah, you are right.. It is the mans, because the man in our society is more important than the female. Oh, we are full circle again | |||
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"I'm not sure if it's down to the UK really. Perhaps culturally we do look down on women somewhat? Western culture encourages women to see other women as competition, we're taught we have to be better than others to attract the man, to have the children with the house and the perfect marriage, rather than focusing on bettering ourselves, lifting others up etc. If you look through history, literature, a woman's value was oft placed on the man she dated/married so it's not surprising there's lingering, archaic beliefs held. Women were seen as being the property of the man, first her father's and then her husband's (dowry, asking father for permission to be married etc), as wombs to be used to bring heirs and a workforce into society. If women didn't follow those things they were ostracized, given the spinster trope, the crazy cat lady, caricatured in novels a la Miss Havisham. The good women were the dutiful wives, the ones who obeyed. Those who spoke out were the witches, the bitter maidens yadda yadda. Look at how sexuality of women is treated - from the Victorian beliefs surrounding "hysteria" and orgasms to the current onus on the female victim to have done things differently. The whole slut, virgin Mary dichotomy. So erm... I'm not sure. Traditionally, perhaps not. Is there more value placed on women now? Perhaps. Attitudes towards women are slowly changing. There's more solidarity amongst women in certain pockets. More women stepping off the life escalator of expectations and doing their own thing without ridicule. I want to be liked by those I liked. I don't want to be disliked on the whole, not because I'm a woman certainly. I'm not sure if this is early morning rambling, I'm waiting for my Starbucks. Interesting question OP!what _eli said!
Also it's really hard to see the faults in a culture until you are shown a different way. There are very few female led societies so we have no proper comparisons to look at.
That's why feminist thinking is vital. It gives a counterpoint to highlight deficiencies in thinking.
If you ask for female equality then you will never achieve it.
The only way to get equality is to aim for female superiority and to then settle for equality"That's a powerful last statement. I ALSO respect what you wrote before. If you mean shoot for the stars and settle for the best I get you. What is someone runs off with the idea of female superiority alone mightn't that just see a separation and I would miss ye'all! | |||
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"I would say looking at the glass ceiling and equality... and considering how women are treated generally by society and the government that perhaps whilst we are liked, we are not 'valued'.. Most especially by men To me the idea of like is linked to the idea of value..I like something so I value it..that is as natural to me as breathing. SO where does the disconnect lay in those who like women but do not value them? What type of person is that!? Your thoughts about that are welcome as are the thoughts of ALL others on here. So we like it, but not enough! I think it is engrained in society - look at some of the themes Meli brought out about a female being someones property and traded through marriage... So similar value to bartering for a farm animal .. And we continue to perpetuate it today... being 'given away' literally, when we get married... Being given station and identity by taking on the male name... Which is clearly more important than our own and all about 'survival'.... Men don't even have to think about this, its a given by society that the male is more important ... It took me a year to adapt to my marrird name, i totally lost my identity and 'who' i was
That's an amazing reply! I've never been married and your example has NEVER crossed my mind!
Genuinely, it's because you are a man that you do not even have to think about this, you are conditioned from birth.. It is your entitlement. It's a really good example of 'privilege'.. And why its so hard for a privileged gender /race to see 'the' issue OK..let me find my feet..this IS the time to realise I wrote I have never been married so would have had no cause to think on such a thing.
Inexperience is not privilege.
A way should then be made for those who do get married to retain both names (I think some do) as for the rest we can sort them out as we go along
Wel double barrelled isn't quite the point I know, but done for the reason of an equal standing name-share it is.
Now, what others did you mention and who needs to be tackled to create chinks in that armour?
Ok..
So which name first. . Mine or yours??
I'll choose.. We'll be midnight-huey
Now our children are going to marry Jack -_eli children
Are they going to be midnight-huey-jack -_eli?? What about when their children marry?
First thing that happens.. It gets shortened to the first name... Guess whose that usually is.. Yeah, you are right.. It is the mans, because the man in our society is more important than the female. Oh, we are full circle again " Sez who! If you feel that strongly about it your name can go first! | |||
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"I’m still sipping coffee and I don’t totally understand the question? X maybe I need to wake up properly x Can you go deeper? What do you mean exactly x" Not the first time you’ve asked that question aye kylie | |||
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"I would say looking at the glass ceiling and equality... and considering how women are treated generally by society and the government that perhaps whilst we are liked, we are not 'valued'.. Most especially by men To me the idea of like is linked to the idea of value..I like something so I value it..that is as natural to me as breathing. SO where does the disconnect lay in those who like women but do not value them? What type of person is that!? Your thoughts about that are welcome as are the thoughts of ALL others on here. So we like it, but not enough! I think it is engrained in society - look at some of the themes Meli brought out about a female being someones property and traded through marriage... So similar value to bartering for a farm animal .. And we continue to perpetuate it today... being 'given away' literally, when we get married... Being given station and identity by taking on the male name... Which is clearly more important than our own and all about 'survival'.... Men don't even have to think about this, its a given by society that the male is more important ... It took me a year to adapt to my marrird name, i totally lost my identity and 'who' i was
That's an amazing reply! I've never been married and your example has NEVER crossed my mind!
Genuinely, it's because you are a man that you do not even have to think about this, you are conditioned from birth.. It is your entitlement. It's a really good example of 'privilege'.. And why its so hard for a privileged gender /race to see 'the' issue OK..let me find my feet..this IS the time to realise I wrote I have never been married so would have had no cause to think on such a thing.
Inexperience is not privilege.
A way should then be made for those who do get married to retain both names (I think some do) as for the rest we can sort them out as we go along
Wel double barrelled isn't quite the point I know, but done for the reason of an equal standing name-share it is.
Now, what others did you mention and who needs to be tackled to create chinks in that armour?
Ok..
So which name first. . Mine or yours??
I'll choose.. We'll be midnight-huey
Now our children are going to marry Jack -_eli children
Are they going to be midnight-huey-jack -_eli?? What about when their children marry?
First thing that happens.. It gets shortened to the first name... Guess whose that usually is.. Yeah, you are right.. It is the mans, because the man in our society is more important than the female. Oh, we are full circle again " The names of the children I will leave you to sort out..I'm reading me paper!
(Whisper) Does she NEVER stop going on! | |||
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" I think it is engrained in society - look at some of the themes Meli brought out about a female being someones property and traded through marriage... So similar value to bartering for a farm animal .. And we continue to perpetuate it today... being 'given away' literally, when we get married... Being given station and identity by taking on the male name... Which is clearly more important than our own and all about 'survival'.... Men don't even have to think about this, its a given by society that the male is more important ... It took me a year to adapt to my marrird name, i totally lost my identity and 'who' i was
That's an amazing reply! I've never been married and your example has NEVER crossed my mind!
Genuinely, it's because you are a man that you do not even have to think about this, you are conditioned from birth.. It is your entitlement. It's a really good example of 'privilege'.. And why its so hard for a privileged gender /race to see 'the' issue OK..let me find my feet..this IS the time to realise I wrote I have never been married so would have had no cause to think on such a thing.
Inexperience is not privilege.
A way should then be made for those who do get married to retain both names (I think some do) as for the rest we can sort them out as we go along
Wel double barrelled isn't quite the point I know, but done for the reason of an equal standing name-share it is.
Now, what others did you mention and who needs to be tackled to create chinks in that armour?
Ok..
So which name first. . Mine or yours??
I'll choose.. We'll be midnight-huey
Now our children are going to marry Jack -_eli children
Are they going to be midnight-huey-jack -_eli?? What about when their children marry?
First thing that happens.. It gets shortened to the first name... Guess whose that usually is.. Yeah, you are right.. It is the mans, because the man in our society is more important than the female. Oh, we are full circle again Sez who! If you feel that strongly about it your name can go first!" . I think the way yo go is to blend names.. We could me Midey or Hueght or Midhue | |||
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"I'm not sure if it's down to the UK really. Perhaps culturally we do look down on women somewhat? Western culture encourages women to see other women as competition, we're taught we have to be better than others to attract the man, to have the children with the house and the perfect marriage, rather than focusing on bettering ourselves, lifting others up etc. If you look through history, literature, a woman's value was oft placed on the man she dated/married so it's not surprising there's lingering, archaic beliefs held. Women were seen as being the property of the man, first her father's and then her husband's (dowry, asking father for permission to be married etc), as wombs to be used to bring heirs and a workforce into society. If women didn't follow those things they were ostracized, given the spinster trope, the crazy cat lady, caricatured in novels a la Miss Havisham. The good women were the dutiful wives, the ones who obeyed. Those who spoke out were the witches, the bitter maidens yadda yadda. Look at how sexuality of women is treated - from the Victorian beliefs surrounding "hysteria" and orgasms to the current onus on the female victim to have done things differently. The whole slut, virgin Mary dichotomy. So erm... I'm not sure. Traditionally, perhaps not. Is there more value placed on women now? Perhaps. Attitudes towards women are slowly changing. There's more solidarity amongst women in certain pockets. More women stepping off the life escalator of expectations and doing their own thing without ridicule. I want to be liked by those I liked. I don't want to be disliked on the whole, not because I'm a woman certainly. I'm not sure if this is early morning rambling, I'm waiting for my Starbucks. Interesting question OP!what _eli said!
Also it's really hard to see the faults in a culture until you are shown a different way. There are very few female led societies so we have no proper comparisons to look at.
That's why feminist thinking is vital. It gives a counterpoint to highlight deficiencies in thinking.
If you ask for female equality then you will never achieve it.
The only way to get equality is to aim for female superiority and to then settle for equality That's a powerful last statement.
I ALSO respect what you wrote before.
If you mean shoot for the stars and settle for the best I get you.
What is someone runs off with the idea of female superiority alone mightn't that just see a separation and I would miss ye'all!"Female superiority wouldn't mean separation. It would be as unhealthy as male superiority. The fact is we work better together using different strengths. I do feel like trans people will help blur the traditional lines of gender and maybe make them less relevant. That would be a step towards equality right there | |||
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"To Women of the UK. Do you think the culture as a whole is a culture that traditionally has liking for women? " Not sure I get the use of the word “like” here. “Liking” someone or something falls a long way short of loving or respecting. Does Uk culture as a whole “like” women? Given that more than 50 per cent of the people who make up sows culture ARE women, then I would hope so. Does Uk culture 100 per cent like women? Probably not. There’s definitely some misogynists out there. So the answer can not be absolute. Does Uk culture afford women equal footing with men? In some areas yes, in many areas no. But I hope / believe that that is improving ... which must mean that by and large, Uk culture “likes” women. I know that I do! | |||
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"I would say looking at the glass ceiling and equality... and considering how women are treated generally by society and the government that perhaps whilst we are liked, we are not 'valued'.. Most especially by men To me the idea of like is linked to the idea of value..I like something so I value it..that is as natural to me as breathing. SO where does the disconnect lay in those who like women but do not value them? What type of person is that!? Your thoughts about that are welcome as are the thoughts of ALL others on here. So we like it, but not enough! I think it is engrained in society - look at some of the themes Meli brought out about a female being someones property and traded through marriage... So similar value to bartering for a farm animal .. And we continue to perpetuate it today... being 'given away' literally, when we get married... Being given station and identity by taking on the male name... Which is clearly more important than our own and all about 'survival'.... Men don't even have to think about this, its a given by society that the male is more important ... It took me a year to adapt to my marrird name, i totally lost my identity and 'who' i was
That's an amazing reply! I've never been married and your example has NEVER crossed my mind!
Genuinely, it's because you are a man that you do not even have to think about this, you are conditioned from birth.. It is your entitlement. It's a really good example of 'privilege'.. And why its so hard for a privileged gender /race to see 'the' issue OK..let me find my feet..this IS the time to realise I wrote I have never been married so would have had no cause to think on such a thing.
Inexperience is not privilege.
A way should then be made for those who do get married to retain both names (I think some do) as for the rest we can sort them out as we go along
Wel double barrelled isn't quite the point I know, but done for the reason of an equal standing name-share it is.
Now, what others did you mention and who needs to be tackled to create chinks in that armour?
Ok..
So which name first. . Mine or yours??
I'll choose.. We'll be midnight-huey
Now our children are going to marry Jack -_eli children
Are they going to be midnight-huey-jack -_eli?? What about when their children marry?
First thing that happens.. It gets shortened to the first name... Guess whose that usually is.. Yeah, you are right.. It is the mans, because the man in our society is more important than the female. Oh, we are full circle again The names of the children I will leave you to sort out..I'm reading me paper!
(Whisper) Does she NEVER stop going on! "Feel free to continue on a more serious note. | |||
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"To Women of the UK. Do you think the culture as a whole is a culture that traditionally has liking for women? " An easy one to answer and with respect.....NO!  | |||
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" OK..let me find my feet..this IS the time to realise I wrote I have never been married so would have had no cause to think on such a thing. Inexperience is not privilege. A way should then be made for those who do get married to retain both names (I think some do) as for the rest we can sort them out as we go along
Wel double barrelled isn't quite the point I know, but done for the reason of an equal standing name-share it is.
Now, what others did you mention and who needs to be tackled to create chinks in that armour?
Ok..
So which name first. . Mine or yours??
I'll choose.. We'll be midnight-huey
Now our children are going to marry Jack -_eli children
Are they going to be midnight-huey-jack -_eli?? What about when their children marry?
First thing that happens.. It gets shortened to the first name... Guess whose that usually is.. Yeah, you are right.. It is the mans, because the man in our society is more important than the female. Oh, we are full circle again The names of the children I will leave you to sort out..I'm reading me paper!
(Whisper) Does she NEVER stop going on! Feel free to continue on a more serious note."Um, thanks for your 'permission' | |||
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" OK..let me find my feet..this IS the time to realise I wrote I have never been married so would have had no cause to think on such a thing. Inexperience is not privilege. A way should then be made for those who do get married to retain both names (I think some do) as for the rest we can sort them out as we go along
Wel double barrelled isn't quite the point I know, but done for the reason of an equal standing name-share it is.
Now, what others did you mention and who needs to be tackled to create chinks in that armour?
Ok..
So which name first. . Mine or yours??
I'll choose.. We'll be midnight-huey
Now our children are going to marry Jack -_eli children
Are they going to be midnight-huey-jack -_eli?? What about when their children marry?
First thing that happens.. It gets shortened to the first name... Guess whose that usually is.. Yeah, you are right.. It is the mans, because the man in our society is more important than the female. Oh, we are full circle again The names of the children I will leave you to sort out..I'm reading me paper!
(Whisper) Does she NEVER stop going on! Feel free to continue on a more serious note.
Um, thanks for your 'permission' "That was making a compromise (my name first isn't so precious to me after hearing how you felt about it after all I'm meant to like you right..If not more than that. So why not be happy? | |||
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"To Women of the UK. Do you think the culture as a whole is a culture that traditionally has liking for women? An easy one to answer and with respect.....NO! "I would value your contribution as to why you think not. | |||
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"I would say looking at the glass ceiling and equality... and considering how women are treated generally by society and the government that perhaps whilst we are liked, we are not 'valued'.. Most especially by men" I think there’s some truth in what you say. There are evidently a lot of changes in ‘public’ be it in areas of equality, pay opportunity and general attitude. But in ‘private’ a lot of the old cliched behaviour is still there. I think when male dominated WhatsApp groups stop sending memes featuring women being led ‘romantically’ to the kitchen sink, or overly sexualised then that might be a sign that things are genuinely changing. | |||
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"I'm not sure if it's down to the UK really. Perhaps culturally we do look down on women somewhat? Western culture encourages women to see other women as competition, we're taught we have to be better than others to attract the man, to have the children with the house and the perfect marriage, rather than focusing on bettering ourselves, lifting others up etc. If you look through history, literature, a woman's value was oft placed on the man she dated/married so it's not surprising there's lingering, archaic beliefs held. Women were seen as being the property of the man, first her father's and then her husband's (dowry, asking father for permission to be married etc), as wombs to be used to bring heirs and a workforce into society. If women didn't follow those things they were ostracized, given the spinster trope, the crazy cat lady, caricatured in novels a la Miss Havisham. The good women were the dutiful wives, the ones who obeyed. Those who spoke out were the witches, the bitter maidens yadda yadda. Look at how sexuality of women is treated - from the Victorian beliefs surrounding "hysteria" and orgasms to the current onus on the female victim to have done things differently. The whole slut, virgin Mary dichotomy. So erm... I'm not sure. Traditionally, perhaps not. Is there more value placed on women now? Perhaps. Attitudes towards women are slowly changing. There's more solidarity amongst women in certain pockets. More women stepping off the life escalator of expectations and doing their own thing without ridicule. I want to be liked by those I liked. I don't want to be disliked on the whole, not because I'm a woman certainly. I'm not sure if this is early morning rambling, I'm waiting for my Starbucks. Interesting question OP!what _eli said!
Also it's really hard to see the faults in a culture until you are shown a different way. There are very few female led societies so we have no proper comparisons to look at.
That's why feminist thinking is vital. It gives a counterpoint to highlight deficiencies in thinking.
If you ask for female equality then you will never achieve it.
The only way to get equality is to aim for female superiority and to then settle for equality That's a powerful last statement.
I ALSO respect what you wrote before.
If you mean shoot for the stars and settle for the best I get you.
What is someone runs off with the idea of female superiority alone mightn't that just see a separation and I would miss ye'all!
Female superiority wouldn't mean separation. It would be as unhealthy as male superiority.
The fact is we work better together using different strengths.
I do feel like trans people will help blur the traditional lines of gender and maybe make them less relevant. That would be a step towards equality right there "I like we work together better using different strengths. BUT if those lines are blurred too much where might those strengths go? | |||
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"Women are valued if They are good looking, modest, humble, not too loud, not too intelligent, sexy but not too sexy, kind, gentle, nurturing,low in self esteem and not too challenging. " By whom? | |||
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"Women might well be liked, they are used to sell everything from cars to loo roll. Sadly they are most certainly not always valued. Gender pay gap. Victim shaming. The beauty industry with all the marketing and media which plays on making insecurities worse to make money. Outdated opinions still being accepted. Misogyny is still alive and well. The costs for female specific products bring higher than the same products for men. Period poverty. I could go on and I'm sure many people could add so much more. " You forgot having smaller feet so they always end up doing the washing up. | |||
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"Women are valued if They are good looking, modest, humble, not too loud, not too intelligent, sexy but not too sexy, kind, gentle, nurturing,low in self esteem and not too challenging. By whom?" "Society". Obviously individuals have different criteria but as a whole society only values women if they stick within quite a narrow set of rules. | |||
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"Women are valued if They are good looking, modest, humble, not too loud, not too intelligent, sexy but not too sexy, kind, gentle, nurturing,low in self esteem and not too challenging. " I have a different set of values to that, and have seen / observed different values during my time living in this country. Yes, large elements of what you say still exist in some / many areas of society, but there are much more positive things too. | |||
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"Women are valued if They are good looking, modest, humble, not too loud, not too intelligent, sexy but not too sexy, kind, gentle, nurturing,low in self esteem and not too challenging. I have a different set of values to that, and have seen / observed different values during my time living in this country. Yes, large elements of what you say still exist in some / many areas of society, but there are much more positive things too. " Yes, I said above that individuals think differently | |||
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"I think the culture all too often idealises women, by which I mean it seems to seek to pigeonhole then, define their ‘type’ and thereby view them _ased on a stereo type." The hot/crazy matrix. Mr here and question to the forum males…. When we are in male company and discuss the ladies, how often is it _ased on merit, achievement vs looks and ‘assets’? For those in a relationship - is the domestic balance equal regardless of earnings? I think a lot of the imbalance starts at ‘home’ if it is not fully equal there - why would we leave home and expect it to be different outside? Do we have frank and open conversations as ‘couples’ about how to redress the balance? Put strategies in place to enable upskilling for example to enable pay parity, provide opportunities. It can’t all be down to public policy and being ‘told’ what to do. We have to work together on it. | |||
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" I think it is engrained in society - look at some of the themes Meli brought out about a female being someones property and traded through marriage... So similar value to bartering for a farm animal .. And we continue to perpetuate it today... being 'given away' literally, when we get married... Being given station and identity by taking on the male name... Which is clearly more important than our own and all about 'survival'.... Men don't even have to think about this, its a given by society that the male is more important ... It took me a year to adapt to my marrird name, i totally lost my identity and 'who' i was
That's an amazing reply! I've never been married and your example has NEVER crossed my mind!
Genuinely, it's because you are a man that you do not even have to think about this, you are conditioned from birth.. It is your entitlement. It's a really good example of 'privilege'.. And why its so hard for a privileged gender /race to see 'the' issue OK..let me find my feet..this IS the time to realise I wrote I have never been married so would have had no cause to think on such a thing.
Inexperience is not privilege.
A way should then be made for those who do get married to retain both names (I think some do) as for the rest we can sort them out as we go along
Wel double barrelled isn't quite the point I know, but done for the reason of an equal standing name-share it is.
Now, what others did you mention and who needs to be tackled to create chinks in that armour?
Ok..
So which name first. . Mine or yours??
I'll choose.. We'll be midnight-huey
Now our children are going to marry Jack -_eli children
Are they going to be midnight-huey-jack -_eli?? What about when their children marry?
First thing that happens.. It gets shortened to the first name... Guess whose that usually is.. Yeah, you are right.. It is the mans, because the man in our society is more important than the female. Oh, we are full circle again Sez who! If you feel that strongly about it your name can go first!
. I think the way yo go is to blend names.. We could me Midey or Hueght or Midhue "OK, you made me laugh we can do that. | |||
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"I think the culture all too often idealises women, by which I mean it seems to seek to pigeonhole then, define their ‘type’ and thereby view them _ased on a stereo type. The hot/crazy matrix. Mr here and question to the forum males…. When we are in male company and discuss the ladies, how often is it _ased on merit, achievement vs looks and ‘assets’? For those in a relationship - is the domestic balance equal regardless of earnings? I think a lot of the imbalance starts at ‘home’ if it is not fully equal there - why would we leave home and expect it to be different outside? Do we have frank and open conversations as ‘couples’ about how to redress the balance? Put strategies in place to enable upskilling for example to enable pay parity, provide opportunities. It can’t all be down to public policy and being ‘told’ what to do. We have to work together on it. " I love this personal accountability | |||
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" I think it is engrained in society - look at some of the themes Meli brought out about a female being someones property and traded through marriage... So similar value to bartering for a farm animal .. And we continue to perpetuate it today... being 'given away' literally, when we get married... Being given station and identity by taking on the male name... Which is clearly more important than our own and all about 'survival'.... Men don't even have to think about this, its a given by society that the male is more important ... It took me a year to adapt to my marrird name, i totally lost my identity and 'who' i was
That's an amazing reply! I've never been married and your example has NEVER crossed my mind!
Genuinely, it's because you are a man that you do not even have to think about this, you are conditioned from birth.. It is your entitlement. It's a really good example of 'privilege'.. And why its so hard for a privileged gender /race to see 'the' issue OK..let me find my feet..this IS the time to realise I wrote I have never been married so would have had no cause to think on such a thing.
Inexperience is not privilege.
A way should then be made for those who do get married to retain both names (I think some do) as for the rest we can sort them out as we go along
Wel double barrelled isn't quite the point I know, but done for the reason of an equal standing name-share it is.
Now, what others did you mention and who needs to be tackled to create chinks in that armour?
Ok..
So which name first. . Mine or yours??
I'll choose.. We'll be midnight-huey
Now our children are going to marry Jack -_eli children
Are they going to be midnight-huey-jack -_eli?? What about when their children marry?
First thing that happens.. It gets shortened to the first name... Guess whose that usually is.. Yeah, you are right.. It is the mans, because the man in our society is more important than the female. Oh, we are full circle again Sez who! If you feel that strongly about it your name can go first!
. I think the way yo go is to blend names.. We could me Midey or Hueght or Midhue OK, you made me laugh we can do that."I'm finding it tough not to go for the one in the middle if given a choice..but there is compromise..so you choose. | |||
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"I think the culture all too often idealises women, by which I mean it seems to seek to pigeonhole then, define their ‘type’ and thereby view them _ased on a stereo type. The hot/crazy matrix. Mr here and question to the forum males…. When we are in male company and discuss the ladies, how often is it _ased on merit, achievement vs looks and ‘assets’? For those in a relationship - is the domestic balance equal regardless of earnings? I think a lot of the imbalance starts at ‘home’ if it is not fully equal there - why would we leave home and expect it to be different outside? Do we have frank and open conversations as ‘couples’ about how to redress the balance? Put strategies in place to enable upskilling for example to enable pay parity, provide opportunities. It can’t all be down to public policy and being ‘told’ what to do. We have to work together on it. I love this personal accountability " Go brother! | |||
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"I think the culture all too often idealises women, by which I mean it seems to seek to pigeonhole then, define their ‘type’ and thereby view them _ased on a stereo type. The hot/crazy matrix. Mr here and question to the forum males…. When we are in male company and discuss the ladies, how often is it _ased on merit, achievement vs looks and ‘assets’? For those in a relationship - is the domestic balance equal regardless of earnings? I think a lot of the imbalance starts at ‘home’ if it is not fully equal there - why would we leave home and expect it to be different outside? Do we have frank and open conversations as ‘couples’ about how to redress the balance? Put strategies in place to enable upskilling for example to enable pay parity, provide opportunities. It can’t all be down to public policy and being ‘told’ what to do. We have to work together on it. " Good food for thought here. Merits and achievements v looks and assets. For those in a relationship. The power of the home. Conversations Redress Strategies Working together at home on it. | |||
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"To Women of the UK. Do you think the culture as a whole is a culture that traditionally has liking for women? An easy one to answer and with respect.....NO! I would value your contribution as to why you think not."I was thinking about it this morning and conversing with a stranger on here! I think some men are intimidated about women, who want to change attitudes in society - so those men are now deciding to rebel and fight back. Maybe they've been brought up by a strong male presence where putting the woman in her place was the norm. Also working in a dominate male environment and the constant derogatory remarks about women, will eventually manipulate your way of thinking.... | |||
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"Do I as an individual feel valued and respected? Yes Women as a whole? Not so sure about that one, attitudes are changing but it it is a slow burn and modern history tells us this... and how far would we of come without Women like Emmaline Pankhurst, Marie Stopes, Florence Nightingale paving the way for shift in attitudes, Women had more freedom and power. Emmaline Pankhurst paved the way for Dame Thatcher to become the first female Prime Minister and led the country for 11 years, the UK's longest serving PM....Love her hate her she was a ground breaker Are we taught about these ground breaking historic females in Schools? I know I never was. The suffragette movement led to changes in political discourse for women, I'd say it was a crucial part of our history but to my knowledge it isn't part of the curriculum.....Why not? To make changes and move forward we have to be able to understand the past and Schools would be a great start _ase for that. " I'm glad you feel valued and respected as an individual..and the rest is bl**dy dynamite! | |||
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"To Women of the UK. Do you think the culture as a whole is a culture that traditionally has liking for women? An easy one to answer and with respect.....NO! I would value your contribution as to why you think not.
I was thinking about it this morning and conversing with a stranger on here!
I think some men are intimidated about women, who want to change attitudes in society - so those men are now deciding to rebel and fight back.
Maybe they've been brought up by a strong male presence where putting the woman in her place was the norm. Also working in a dominate male environment and the constant derogatory remarks about women, will eventually manipulate your way of thinking...." You have added to the thought process. | |||
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"Women are valued if They are good looking, modest, humble, not too loud, not too intelligent, sexy but not too sexy, kind, gentle, nurturing,low in self esteem and not too challenging. By whom? "Society". Obviously individuals have different criteria but as a whole society only values women if they stick within quite a narrow set of rules. " What rules would you like to break? Do you want to climb mountains? Firefight? Be a physicist? An astromoner? A Soldier? A business-owner? A High Court Judge? A Health Consultant? | |||
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"To Women of the UK. Do you think the culture as a whole is a culture that traditionally has liking for women? An easy one to answer and with respect.....NO! I would value your contribution as to why you think not.
I was thinking about it this morning and conversing with a stranger on here!
I think some men are intimidated about women, who want to change attitudes in society - so those men are now deciding to rebel and fight back.
Maybe they've been brought up by a strong male presence where putting the woman in her place was the norm. Also working in a dominate male environment and the constant derogatory remarks about women, will eventually manipulate your way of thinking...."Look at the way females are portrayed through the history of film too.. I can't watch James Bond films, they make me sick to the stomach and yet for most they are essential viewing and form our view of what is 'normal' | |||
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"Women are valued if They are good looking, modest, humble, not too loud, not too intelligent, sexy but not too sexy, kind, gentle, nurturing,low in self esteem and not too challenging. " I had to add there IS good food for thought here! | |||
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"To Women of the UK. Do you think the culture as a whole is a culture that traditionally has liking for women? An easy one to answer and with respect.....NO! I would value your contribution as to why you think not.
I was thinking about it this morning and conversing with a stranger on here!
I think some men are intimidated about women, who want to change attitudes in society - so those men are now deciding to rebel and fight back.
Maybe they've been brought up by a strong male presence where putting the woman in her place was the norm. Also working in a dominate male environment and the constant derogatory remarks about women, will eventually manipulate your way of thinking...."Interesting that you use the word “intimidated” to describe some men’s reactions to women who want change. I often struggle with seeing non-progressive people being accused of fear. For example, bullies are afraid, people who customise or discriminate are “phobic” , and in this case can men being “intimidated” by change. Phobia is about fear. Men who discriminate against people _ased in their sexual or gender identities aren’t “afraid” of trans people or gay people , for example, they are just arseholes themselves. Hate and discrimination are ugly, but dressing them up as fear doesn’t work for me. | |||
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"To Women of the UK. Do you think the culture as a whole is a culture that traditionally has liking for women? I personally love women. I think they are great, both in and out of the bedroom. I even prefer female company socially and have much respect and admiration for them" This is the kind of answer that churns me to chudder. I'm not talking about the poster - just the post. | |||
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"Women are valued if They are good looking, modest, humble, not too loud, not too intelligent, sexy but not too sexy, kind, gentle, nurturing,low in self esteem and not too challenging. By whom? "Society". Obviously individuals have different criteria but as a whole society only values women if they stick within quite a narrow set of rules. What rules would you like to break? Do you want to climb mountains? Firefight? Be a physicist? An astromoner? A Soldier? A business-owner? A High Court Judge? A Health Consultant?" I don't want to be or do any of those things. The rules I'm talking about are the unwritten ones that ask me to stay within a set of fairly narrow restrictions. Be nice, smile, don't draw attention to yourself, enjoy sex but not with too many people etc etc | |||
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"To Women of the UK. Do you think the culture as a whole is a culture that traditionally has liking for women? I personally love women. I think they are great, both in and out of the bedroom. I even prefer female company socially and have much respect and admiration for them All of them?" Et tu ?  | |||
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"To Women of the UK. Do you think the culture as a whole is a culture that traditionally has liking for women? An easy one to answer and with respect.....NO! I would value your contribution as to why you think not.
I was thinking about it this morning and conversing with a stranger on here!
I think some men are intimidated about women, who want to change attitudes in society - so those men are now deciding to rebel and fight back.
Maybe they've been brought up by a strong male presence where putting the woman in her place was the norm. Also working in a dominate male environment and the constant derogatory remarks about women, will eventually manipulate your way of thinking....
Look at the way females are portrayed through the history of film too.. I can't watch James Bond films, they make me sick to the stomach and yet for most they are essential viewing and form our view of what is 'normal' "Can we not use them as this is what attitudes were like, but now we must evolve into a better way of understanding of the female race? | |||
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"To Women of the UK. Do you think the culture as a whole is a culture that traditionally has liking for women? I personally love women. I think they are great, both in and out of the bedroom. I even prefer female company socially and have much respect and admiration for them All of them? Well, most of the ones that I’ve met and chatted to both in the scene and out. Obviously there are some that I wouldn’t give the time of day to but I wouldn’t then socialise with them anyway. I would rather go out with a group of girls than a group of men though " Girls ? or Women ? | |||
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"Women are valued if They are good looking, modest, humble, not too loud, not too intelligent, sexy but not too sexy, kind, gentle, nurturing,low in self esteem and not too challenging. By whom? "Society". Obviously individuals have different criteria but as a whole society only values women if they stick within quite a narrow set of rules. What rules would you like to break? Do you want to climb mountains? Firefight? Be a physicist? An astromoner? A Soldier? A business-owner? A High Court Judge? A Health Consultant? I don't want to be or do any of those things. The rules I'm talking about are the unwritten ones that ask me to stay within a set of fairly narrow restrictions. Be nice, smile, don't draw attention to yourself, enjoy sex but not with too many people etc etc " Yeah i think your point sailed over his head | |||
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"To Women of the UK. Do you think the culture as a whole is a culture that traditionally has liking for women? An easy one to answer and with respect.....NO! I would value your contribution as to why you think not.
I was thinking about it this morning and conversing with a stranger on here!
I think some men are intimidated about women, who want to change attitudes in society - so those men are now deciding to rebel and fight back.
Maybe they've been brought up by a strong male presence where putting the woman in her place was the norm. Also working in a dominate male environment and the constant derogatory remarks about women, will eventually manipulate your way of thinking....
Look at the way females are portrayed through the history of film too.. I can't watch James Bond films, they make me sick to the stomach and yet for most they are essential viewing and form our view of what is 'normal'
Can we not use them as this is what attitudes were like, but now we must evolve into a better way of understanding of the female race?"That would be a great start | |||
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"To Women of the UK. Do you think the culture as a whole is a culture that traditionally has liking for women? An easy one to answer and with respect.....NO! I would value your contribution as to why you think not.
I was thinking about it this morning and conversing with a stranger on here!
I think some men are intimidated about women, who want to change attitudes in society - so those men are now deciding to rebel and fight back.
Maybe they've been brought up by a strong male presence where putting the woman in her place was the norm. Also working in a dominate male environment and the constant derogatory remarks about women, will eventually manipulate your way of thinking....
Interesting that you use the word “intimidated” to describe some men’s reactions to women who want change. I often struggle with seeing non-progressive people being accused of fear. For example, bullies are afraid, people who customise or discriminate are “phobic” , and in this case can men being “intimidated” by change.
Phobia is about fear. Men who discriminate against people _ased in their sexual or gender identities aren’t “afraid” of trans people or gay people , for example, they are just arseholes themselves. Hate and discrimination are ugly, but dressing them up as fear doesn’t work for me. "So, you would use stronger words such as hate and discrimination..where do others feelings about issues come into it? Can EVERYTHING be handled by a simple branding? | |||
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"I mean look at the tampon tax as an example.. Or female mutilation... The sexual pressure that is placed on our (female) children.. The fact that men don't r*pe women... the blame culture (she was asking for it).. Domestic violence which is factually mostly caused by men on women... The fact that i will be paid less than my male colleagues regardless of my ability and the fact that my male colleague is way more likely to get the promotion than me where we are equally or better talented Gosh so many examples Good examples Midnight, I've been thinking about modern examples of "disliking" women and this covers them.
Thanks Meli, i got quite worked up and realised i wa getting ranty lol so i had a cool down "Midnight........ As an adult human being, you spoke clearly and concisely about aspects of life as a woman from first hand experience in today's society. By describing your contribution as 'ranty' you fall upon yourself with the same labelling as is used by men to women who express either knowledge or opinion. Yesterday a male poster THREE times said he was going to 'leave you to calm down'....... to a female poster. Don't support the trope that a woman speaking is a over emotional lunatic. So endemic in our society that we don't notice it. xx | |||
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"Look at how women on here are called out as killjoys, forum police etc if they raise objections to flashing or men colluding with other men to approach their wife when she's out. " If that is the case its good that you raised it! Such things as flashing SHOULD preferably be done indoors and if you get caught otherwise IT IS ON YOU (Haha) I understand a bit of risqué..but their may be awful consequences for others and self!
The last sentence isn't clear? | |||
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"To Women of the UK. Do you think the culture as a whole is a culture that traditionally has liking for women? An easy one to answer and with respect.....NO! I would value your contribution as to why you think not.
I was thinking about it this morning and conversing with a stranger on here!
I think some men are intimidated about women, who want to change attitudes in society - so those men are now deciding to rebel and fight back.
Maybe they've been brought up by a strong male presence where putting the woman in her place was the norm. Also working in a dominate male environment and the constant derogatory remarks about women, will eventually manipulate your way of thinking....
Look at the way females are portrayed through the history of film too.. I can't watch James Bond films, they make me sick to the stomach and yet for most they are essential viewing and form our view of what is 'normal'
Can we not use them as this is what attitudes were like, but now we must evolve into a better way of understanding of the female race?"Female race? Females are a different race? | |||
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"I mean look at the tampon tax as an example.. Or female mutilation... The sexual pressure that is placed on our (female) children.. The fact that men don't r*pe women... the blame culture (she was asking for it).. Domestic violence which is factually mostly caused by men on women... The fact that i will be paid less than my male colleagues regardless of my ability and the fact that my male colleague is way more likely to get the promotion than me where we are equally or better talented Gosh so many examples Good examples Midnight, I've been thinking about modern examples of "disliking" women and this covers them.
Thanks Meli, i got quite worked up and realised i wa getting ranty lol so i had a cool down
Midnight........
As an adult human being, you spoke clearly and concisely about aspects of life as a woman from first hand experience in today's society.
By describing your contribution as 'ranty' you fall upon yourself with the same labelling as is used by men to women who express either knowledge or opinion.
Yesterday a male poster THREE times said he was going to 'leave you to calm down'....... to a female poster.
Don't support the trope that a woman speaking is a over emotional lunatic.
So endemic in our society that we don't notice it.
xx "So wise Granny xx | |||
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"I mean look at the tampon tax as an example.. Or female mutilation... The sexual pressure that is placed on our (female) children.. The fact that men don't r*pe women... the blame culture (she was asking for it).. Domestic violence which is factually mostly caused by men on women... The fact that i will be paid less than my male colleagues regardless of my ability and the fact that my male colleague is way more likely to get the promotion than me where we are equally or better talented Gosh so many examples Good examples Midnight, I've been thinking about modern examples of "disliking" women and this covers them.
Thanks Meli, i got quite worked up and realised i wa getting ranty lol so i had a cool down
Midnight........
As an adult human being, you spoke clearly and concisely about aspects of life as a woman from first hand experience in today's society.
By describing your contribution as 'ranty' you fall upon yourself with the same labelling as is used by men to women who express either knowledge or opinion.
Yesterday a male poster THREE times said he was going to 'leave you to calm down'....... to a female poster.
Don't support the trope that a woman speaking is a over emotional lunatic.
So endemic in our society that we don't notice it.
xx " I agree she had no need to think that was so.
The difference between a vent and a malicious rant needs to be understood..and even they have a foundation, if a good equilibrium can be found? GOOD!
If not? Vacate those premises!! | |||
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"To Women of the UK. Do you think the culture as a whole is a culture that traditionally has liking for women? An easy one to answer and with respect.....NO! I would value your contribution as to why you think not.
I was thinking about it this morning and conversing with a stranger on here!
I think some men are intimidated about women, who want to change attitudes in society - so those men are now deciding to rebel and fight back.
Maybe they've been brought up by a strong male presence where putting the woman in her place was the norm. Also working in a dominate male environment and the constant derogatory remarks about women, will eventually manipulate your way of thinking....
Interesting that you use the word “intimidated” to describe some men’s reactions to women who want change. I often struggle with seeing non-progressive people being accused of fear. For example, bullies are afraid, people who customise or discriminate are “phobic” , and in this case can men being “intimidated” by change.
Phobia is about fear. Men who discriminate against people _ased in their sexual or gender identities aren’t “afraid” of trans people or gay people , for example, they are just arseholes themselves. Hate and discrimination are ugly, but dressing them up as fear doesn’t work for me. So, you would use stronger words such as hate and discrimination..where do others feelings about issues come into it?
Can EVERYTHING be handled by a simple branding?"My thought is that discrimination happens for many reasons ... ignorance, intolerance, hatred, but it is a mistake to wrap discrimination up under a word that means fear. That let’s perpetrators off a bit lightly. No, I don’t feel that simple branding works. That was exactly what I was trying to express | |||
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"O.P. Are women liked ? This isn't a question I can answer. By who ? From whose perspective ? Which women ? Which aspects of women's lives ? Which culture, which class , which epoch? Of greater harm to me than any male is class..... " You have answered as I desire. Called it as you see it. Class as an issue to all!? | |||
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"To Women of the UK. Do you think the culture as a whole is a culture that traditionally has liking for women? An easy one to answer and with respect.....NO! I would value your contribution as to why you think not.
I was thinking about it this morning and conversing with a stranger on here!
I think some men are intimidated about women, who want to change attitudes in society - so those men are now deciding to rebel and fight back.
Maybe they've been brought up by a strong male presence where putting the woman in her place was the norm. Also working in a dominate male environment and the constant derogatory remarks about women, will eventually manipulate your way of thinking....
Interesting that you use the word “intimidated” to describe some men’s reactions to women who want change. I often struggle with seeing non-progressive people being accused of fear. For example, bullies are afraid, people who customise or discriminate are “phobic” , and in this case can men being “intimidated” by change.
Phobia is about fear. Men who discriminate against people _ased in their sexual or gender identities aren’t “afraid” of trans people or gay people , for example, they are just arseholes themselves. Hate and discrimination are ugly, but dressing them up as fear doesn’t work for me. "Yes they are and always will be intimidated by females who want to move up in a career ladder, especially in high powered jobs! Could men juggle career, home life, children in the same way, maybe maybe not in some cases! Must be 'off-putting' for guys to see all that can be achieved from a human, her/she - after all these decades, standing at a sink or cooker. How was that achieved from a female, suprisingly from nowhere!!! ..... Yes they do fear the uprising of strong women!!! Most certainly do!!! | |||
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"To Women of the UK. Do you think the culture as a whole is a culture that traditionally has liking for women? An easy one to answer and with respect.....NO! I would value your contribution as to why you think not.
I was thinking about it this morning and conversing with a stranger on here!
I think some men are intimidated about women, who want to change attitudes in society - so those men are now deciding to rebel and fight back.
Maybe they've been brought up by a strong male presence where putting the woman in her place was the norm. Also working in a dominate male environment and the constant derogatory remarks about women, will eventually manipulate your way of thinking....
Look at the way females are portrayed through the history of film too.. I can't watch James Bond films, they make me sick to the stomach and yet for most they are essential viewing and form our view of what is 'normal'
Can we not use them as this is what attitudes were like, but now we must evolve into a better way of understanding of the female race?
Female race? Females are a different race? "Female race is the terminology I have used...what's your issue now? | |||
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"But whose culture, the UK is made up of so many different cultures and influences? There will always be pockets of those that don’t want to change their ways or views, but the majority are changing how they think and act. Unfortunately it all takes time and doesn’t happen overnight " Exactly. Can’t boil a question like this down to a yes / no answer. “Society” is not that easily defined, and it is constantly changing | |||
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"I'm not sure if it's down to the UK really. Perhaps culturally we do look down on women somewhat? Western culture encourages women to see other women as competition, we're taught we have to be better than others to attract the man, to have the children with the house and the perfect marriage, rather than focusing on bettering ourselves, lifting others up etc. If you look through history, literature, a woman's value was oft placed on the man she dated/married so it's not surprising there's lingering, archaic beliefs held. Women were seen as being the property of the man, first her father's and then her husband's (dowry, asking father for permission to be married etc), as wombs to be used to bring heirs and a workforce into society. If women didn't follow those things they were ostracized, given the spinster trope, the crazy cat lady, caricatured in novels a la Miss Havisham. The good women were the dutiful wives, the ones who obeyed. Those who spoke out were the witches, the bitter maidens yadda yadda. Look at how sexuality of women is treated - from the Victorian beliefs surrounding "hysteria" and orgasms to the current onus on the female victim to have done things differently. The whole slut, virgin Mary dichotomy. So erm... I'm not sure. Traditionally, perhaps not. Is there more value placed on women now? Perhaps. Attitudes towards women are slowly changing. There's more solidarity amongst women in certain pockets. More women stepping off the life escalator of expectations and doing their own thing without ridicule. I want to be liked by those I liked. I don't want to be disliked on the whole, not because I'm a woman certainly. I'm not sure if this is early morning rambling, I'm waiting for my Starbucks. Interesting question OP!what _eli said!
Also it's really hard to see the faults in a culture until you are shown a different way. There are very few female led societies so we have no proper comparisons to look at.
That's why feminist thinking is vital. It gives a counterpoint to highlight deficiencies in thinking.
If you ask for female equality then you will never achieve it.
The only way to get equality is to aim for female superiority and to then settle for equality"Equality ? I have to settle for such a lowering of my abilities..... jesus
I don't want equality - I want an end to discrimination on the basis of my gender......
I'm not out to piss standing up. | |||
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"I’m still sipping coffee and I don’t totally understand the question? X maybe I need to wake up properly x Can you go deeper? What do you mean exactly x" Love when a woman wants me to go deeper | |||
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"To Women of the UK. Do you think the culture as a whole is a culture that traditionally has liking for women? An easy one to answer and with respect.....NO! I would value your contribution as to why you think not.
I was thinking about it this morning and conversing with a stranger on here!
I think some men are intimidated about women, who want to change attitudes in society - so those men are now deciding to rebel and fight back.
Maybe they've been brought up by a strong male presence where putting the woman in her place was the norm. Also working in a dominate male environment and the constant derogatory remarks about women, will eventually manipulate your way of thinking....
Look at the way females are portrayed through the history of film too.. I can't watch James Bond films, they make me sick to the stomach and yet for most they are essential viewing and form our view of what is 'normal'
Can we not use them as this is what attitudes were like, but now we must evolve into a better way of understanding of the female race?
Female race? Females are a different race?
Female race is the terminology I have used...what's your issue now?"I thought race meant something completely different! | |||
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"To Women of the UK. Do you think the culture as a whole is a culture that traditionally has liking for women? An easy one to answer and with respect.....NO! I would value your contribution as to why you think not.
I was thinking about it this morning and conversing with a stranger on here!
I think some men are intimidated about women, who want to change attitudes in society - so those men are now deciding to rebel and fight back.
Maybe they've been brought up by a strong male presence where putting the woman in her place was the norm. Also working in a dominate male environment and the constant derogatory remarks about women, will eventually manipulate your way of thinking....
Interesting that you use the word “intimidated” to describe some men’s reactions to women who want change. I often struggle with seeing non-progressive people being accused of fear. For example, bullies are afraid, people who customise or discriminate are “phobic” , and in this case can men being “intimidated” by change.
Phobia is about fear. Men who discriminate against people _ased in their sexual or gender identities aren’t “afraid” of trans people or gay people , for example, they are just arseholes themselves. Hate and discrimination are ugly, but dressing them up as fear doesn’t work for me.
Yes they are and always will be intimidated by females who want to move up in a career ladder, especially in high powered jobs!
Could men juggle career, home life, children in the same way, maybe maybe not in some cases!
Must be 'off-putting' for guys to see all that can be achieved from a human, her/she - after all these decades, standing at a sink or cooker. How was that achieved from a female, suprisingly from nowhere!!! .....
Yes they do fear the uprising of strong women!!!
Most certainly do!!! " Strong Women Arise!
We sure need you!! | |||
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"But whose culture, the UK is made up of so many different cultures and influences? There will always be pockets of those that don’t want to change their ways or views, but the majority are changing how they think and act. Unfortunately it all takes time and doesn’t happen overnight " Many didn't need much changing as they had reasonably good mums or great ones.
Maybe just trimmed round some rough gathered edges. | |||
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"To Women of the UK. Do you think the culture as a whole is a culture that traditionally has liking for women? An easy one to answer and with respect.....NO! I would value your contribution as to why you think not.
I was thinking about it this morning and conversing with a stranger on here!
I think some men are intimidated about women, who want to change attitudes in society - so those men are now deciding to rebel and fight back.
Maybe they've been brought up by a strong male presence where putting the woman in her place was the norm. Also working in a dominate male environment and the constant derogatory remarks about women, will eventually manipulate your way of thinking....
Interesting that you use the word “intimidated” to describe some men’s reactions to women who want change. I often struggle with seeing non-progressive people being accused of fear. For example, bullies are afraid, people who customise or discriminate are “phobic” , and in this case can men being “intimidated” by change.
Phobia is about fear. Men who discriminate against people _ased in their sexual or gender identities aren’t “afraid” of trans people or gay people , for example, they are just arseholes themselves. Hate and discrimination are ugly, but dressing them up as fear doesn’t work for me.
Yes they are and always will be intimidated by females who want to move up in a career ladder, especially in high powered jobs!
Could men juggle career, home life, children in the same way, maybe maybe not in some cases!
Must be 'off-putting' for guys to see all that can be achieved from a human, her/she - after all these decades, standing at a sink or cooker. How was that achieved from a female, suprisingly from nowhere!!! .....
Yes they do fear the uprising of strong women!!!
Most certainly do!!! "Purely expressing my own feelings, but in no way do I fear strong or successful women, quite the opposite. | |||
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"I'm not sure if it's down to the UK really. Perhaps culturally we do look down on women somewhat? Western culture encourages women to see other women as competition, we're taught we have to be better than others to attract the man, to have the children with the house and the perfect marriage, rather than focusing on bettering ourselves, lifting others up etc. If you look through history, literature, a woman's value was oft placed on the man she dated/married so it's not surprising there's lingering, archaic beliefs held. Women were seen as being the property of the man, first her father's and then her husband's (dowry, asking father for permission to be married etc), as wombs to be used to bring heirs and a workforce into society. If women didn't follow those things they were ostracized, given the spinster trope, the crazy cat lady, caricatured in novels a la Miss Havisham. The good women were the dutiful wives, the ones who obeyed. Those who spoke out were the witches, the bitter maidens yadda yadda. Look at how sexuality of women is treated - from the Victorian beliefs surrounding "hysteria" and orgasms to the current onus on the female victim to have done things differently. The whole slut, virgin Mary dichotomy. So erm... I'm not sure. Traditionally, perhaps not. Is there more value placed on women now? Perhaps. Attitudes towards women are slowly changing. There's more solidarity amongst women in certain pockets. More women stepping off the life escalator of expectations and doing their own thing without ridicule. I want to be liked by those I liked. I don't want to be disliked on the whole, not because I'm a woman certainly. I'm not sure if this is early morning rambling, I'm waiting for my Starbucks. Interesting question OP!what _eli said!
Also it's really hard to see the faults in a culture until you are shown a different way. There are very few female led societies so we have no proper comparisons to look at.
That's why feminist thinking is vital. It gives a counterpoint to highlight deficiencies in thinking.
If you ask for female equality then you will never achieve it.
The only way to get equality is to aim for female superiority and to then settle for equality That's a powerful last statement.
I ALSO respect what you wrote before.
If you mean shoot for the stars and settle for the best I get you.
What is someone runs off with the idea of female superiority alone mightn't that just see a separation and I would miss ye'all!
Female superiority wouldn't mean separation. It would be as unhealthy as male superiority.
The fact is we work better together using different strengths.
I do feel like trans people will help blur the traditional lines of gender and maybe make them less relevant. That would be a step towards equality right there I like we work together better using different strengths.
BUT if those lines are blurred too much where might those strengths go?"The strength of an individual does not change because society stops caring about what genitals you have. I know one mid transition woman who is just as strong willed as they were when they identified as a man. They are just as intelligent, driven, obstinate and privileged as they were before. And I know quite a few cis gendered women who are ferocious and imperious in their lives, bending other people to their way of thinking. In previous times these women would have been relegated to running households or being teachers or nurses. My trans friend will always be an exceptional person regardless of their genitals or how long their hair is. In an equal future hopefully we can just put the best people into the correct jobs. | |||
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"I'm not sure if it's down to the UK really. Perhaps culturally we do look down on women somewhat? Western culture encourages women to see other women as competition, we're taught we have to be better than others to attract the man, to have the children with the house and the perfect marriage, rather than focusing on bettering ourselves, lifting others up etc. If you look through history, literature, a woman's value was oft placed on the man she dated/married so it's not surprising there's lingering, archaic beliefs held. Women were seen as being the property of the man, first her father's and then her husband's (dowry, asking father for permission to be married etc), as wombs to be used to bring heirs and a workforce into society. If women didn't follow those things they were ostracized, given the spinster trope, the crazy cat lady, caricatured in novels a la Miss Havisham. The good women were the dutiful wives, the ones who obeyed. Those who spoke out were the witches, the bitter maidens yadda yadda. Look at how sexuality of women is treated - from the Victorian beliefs surrounding "hysteria" and orgasms to the current onus on the female victim to have done things differently. The whole slut, virgin Mary dichotomy. So erm... I'm not sure. Traditionally, perhaps not. Is there more value placed on women now? Perhaps. Attitudes towards women are slowly changing. There's more solidarity amongst women in certain pockets. More women stepping off the life escalator of expectations and doing their own thing without ridicule. I want to be liked by those I liked. I don't want to be disliked on the whole, not because I'm a woman certainly. I'm not sure if this is early morning rambling, I'm waiting for my Starbucks. Interesting question OP!what _eli said!
Also it's really hard to see the faults in a culture until you are shown a different way. There are very few female led societies so we have no proper comparisons to look at.
That's why feminist thinking is vital. It gives a counterpoint to highlight deficiencies in thinking.
If you ask for female equality then you will never achieve it.
The only way to get equality is to aim for female superiority and to then settle for equality
Equality ? I have to settle for such a lowering of my abilities..... jesus
I don't want equality - I want an end to discrimination on the basis of my gender......
I'm not out to piss standing up. "I love you GC Maybe equality means I get to piss sitting down ... why do you have to change your behaviour?? | |||
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"To Women of the UK. Do you think the culture as a whole is a culture that traditionally has liking for women? " Generally, in my experience, I feel it's only if a male wants sex or wants to use women to get off. It's very rare I find a male who wants to be a genuine, authentic friend. It's also a sad fact that I've noticed a lot that a woman knows she looks good due to the bitchy looks and negative, jealous comments from other females. | |||
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"O.P. Are women liked ? This isn't a question I can answer. By who ? From whose perspective ? Which women ? Which aspects of women's lives ? Which culture, which class , which epoch? Of greater harm to me than any male is class..... You have answered as I desire. Called it as you see it. Class as an issue to all!?" Our class structure ( which still exists despite the protestations of those who will not see ) is a threat to each and every one of us male or female and all of our biases and assumptions arise from within class confines but I have nothing against other classes, I'm not classist..... my sister married one and he's okay. | |||
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"But whose culture, the UK is made up of so many different cultures and influences? There will always be pockets of those that don’t want to change their ways or views, but the majority are changing how they think and act. Unfortunately it all takes time and doesn’t happen overnight Many didn't need much changing as they had reasonably good mums or great ones.
Maybe just trimmed round some rough gathered edges."Wish I could say that about mine. I certainly broke the mold where mental strength was concerned. Makes you realise as a woman you deserve much better! | |||
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"To Women of the UK. Do you think the culture as a whole is a culture that traditionally has liking for women? An easy one to answer and with respect.....NO! I would value your contribution as to why you think not.
I was thinking about it this morning and conversing with a stranger on here!
I think some men are intimidated about women, who want to change attitudes in society - so those men are now deciding to rebel and fight back.
Maybe they've been brought up by a strong male presence where putting the woman in her place was the norm. Also working in a dominate male environment and the constant derogatory remarks about women, will eventually manipulate your way of thinking....
Interesting that you use the word “intimidated” to describe some men’s reactions to women who want change. I often struggle with seeing non-progressive people being accused of fear. For example, bullies are afraid, people who customise or discriminate are “phobic” , and in this case can men being “intimidated” by change.
Phobia is about fear. Men who discriminate against people _ased in their sexual or gender identities aren’t “afraid” of trans people or gay people , for example, they are just arseholes themselves. Hate and discrimination are ugly, but dressing them up as fear doesn’t work for me.
Yes they are and always will be intimidated by females who want to move up in a career ladder, especially in high powered jobs!
Could men juggle career, home life, children in the same way, maybe maybe not in some cases!
Must be 'off-putting' for guys to see all that can be achieved from a human, her/she - after all these decades, standing at a sink or cooker. How was that achieved from a female, suprisingly from nowhere!!! .....
Yes they do fear the uprising of strong women!!!
Most certainly do!!!
Purely expressing my own feelings, but in no way do I fear strong or successful women, quite the opposite.
"That's good and these discussions are for those who value women .... That's obvious | |||
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"But whose culture, the UK is made up of so many different cultures and influences? There will always be pockets of those that don’t want to change their ways or views, but the majority are changing how they think and act. Unfortunately it all takes time and doesn’t happen overnight Many didn't need much changing as they had reasonably good mums or great ones.
Maybe just trimmed round some rough gathered edges.
Wish I could say that about mine. I certainly broke the mold where mental strength was concerned. Makes you realise as a woman you deserve much better!" You deserve much better...I know this friend as we do chat via message..so I can say that..but she has never told me this..and is always upbeat..we have good discussions.
My dear, I'm glad you had the boldness to state what you just stated and may your dreams come true x | |||
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"…. In an equal future hopefully we can just put the best people into the correct jobs. " Don’t we do that already? The issue is more a case of equal opportunity to become the best and be recognised as the best. Traditionally men have had it ‘easier’ on that path and therefore continue to dominate in terms of numbers and seniority in many fields. Appointing people just fir the sale of meeting balanced metrics will in long term undermine the meritocracy. There are no shortage of talented candidates from either gender (keeping things simple - not opening that can of worms here). But there is a lot of work required to open up entire industries to be much more accessible and welcoming - that goes for formal entry and progression as well as the informal culture in the canteen or around the water cooler. Men better watch out though and up their game because casual observation over past couple of decades tells me that when the playing field is entirely level. We men can’t be as complacent as we are used to being. Overcoming that challenge will unlock some of the remaining resistance to change in the workplace. | |||
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"O.P. Are women liked ? This isn't a question I can answer. By who ? From whose perspective ? Which women ? Which aspects of women's lives ? Which culture, which class , which epoch? Of greater harm to me than any male is class..... You have answered as I desire. Called it as you see it. Class as an issue to all!? Our class structure ( which still exists despite the protestations of those who will not see ) is a threat to each and every one of us male or female and all of our biases and assumptions arise from within class confines but I have nothing against other classes, I'm not classist..... my sister married one and he's okay. " Thanks again, the class issue is a definite thing. | |||
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"To Women of the UK. Do you think the culture as a whole is a culture that traditionally has liking for women? Generally, in my experience, I feel it's only if a male wants sex or wants to use women to get off. It's very rare I find a male who wants to be a genuine, authentic friend. It's also a sad fact that I've noticed a lot that a woman knows she looks good due to the bitchy looks and negative, jealous comments from other females. " Re the impact of a woman looking good, I saw a very clear example of this in a conlnahu I used to work in. We hired a young lady who had won her national beauty contest and competed at miss world. We hired her because her academics were amazing and she aced the interviews which she was extremely well prepared for. We were conscious that people might accuse us hiring her because she looked good, so if anything it was harder for her to get the job as we had to feel certain that that was not what we were doing. When she started, she got off to a brilliant start because the traders were eating out of her hand and did everything she asked them to do. And she quickly got promoted. That led to but by comments like you refer to, that she was being promoted because she looked good and manure she was shagging one of the bosses. It took quite a while for people to realise what we had seen from the interviews, that she was a bloody smart lady, very ambitious and capable, and that she would go a long way. Looking back on that time, her looks were an advantage at some times with some people, and a disadvantage at other times with other people. But the bottom line was that once people actually got to know her, her work, personality and brain determined her career path, not her looks and body. | |||
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Mrs TMN x | |||
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"To Women of the UK. Do you think the culture as a whole is a culture that traditionally has liking for women? Generally, in my experience, I feel it's only if a male wants sex or wants to use women to get off. It's very rare I find a male who wants to be a genuine, authentic friend. It's also a sad fact that I've noticed a lot that a woman knows she looks good due to the bitchy looks and negative, jealous comments from other females. " Thanks for your contribution. | |||
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"Look at how women on here are called out as killjoys, forum police etc if they raise objections to flashing or men colluding with other men to approach their wife when she's out. If that is the case its good that you raised it! Such things as flashing SHOULD preferably be done indoors and if you get caught otherwise IT IS ON YOU (Haha) I understand a bit of risqué..but their may be awful consequences for others and self!
The last sentence isn't clear?"It's not risqué it's non consensual activity. My last sentence refers to men who say they want their wife to be approached when she's on a night out because they *know* she wants it really or those who want a couple to meet them accidentally in a bar without her knowing. The number of men who reply saying they're willing to help the guy out. Help him out for Christ's sake . The woman's feelings, safety or agreement are not significant to these people. | |||
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"This is a fascinating thread, certainly got my brain going this morning! Female equality as a concept always bothers me. As Granny says, why are we trying to be the same as men? That suggests all men are a homogeneous grrr powerful strong being which all women aspire to be, to my mind... Equity seems a better aspiration. The understanding that for people to be afforded the same opportunities, some need different supports to others at different times. In my experience, a person who is universally liked is one who doesn't rock the boat. So no, I don't go out of my way to be liked
Mrs TMN x"I am glad about the fact that there are different female voices and not all voices will be initially liked..BUT they should be given a fair consideration. | |||
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"Look at how women on here are called out as killjoys, forum police etc if they raise objections to flashing or men colluding with other men to approach their wife when she's out. If that is the case its good that you raised it! Such things as flashing SHOULD preferably be done indoors and if you get caught otherwise IT IS ON YOU (Haha) I understand a bit of risqué..but their may be awful consequences for others and self!
The last sentence isn't clear?
It's not risqué it's non consensual activity.
My last sentence refers to men who say they want their wife to be approached when she's on a night out because they *know* she wants it really or those who want a couple to meet them accidentally in a bar without her knowing. The number of men who reply saying they're willing to help the guy out. Help him out for Christ's sake
. The woman's feelings, safety or agreement are not significant to these people. "I always get the impression that blokes like that, posting that they want someone to seduce their wife / partner, are complete and utter fantasists. | |||
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"Look at how women on here are called out as killjoys, forum police etc if they raise objections to flashing or men colluding with other men to approach their wife when she's out. If that is the case its good that you raised it! Such things as flashing SHOULD preferably be done indoors and if you get caught otherwise IT IS ON YOU (Haha) I understand a bit of risqué..but their may be awful consequences for others and self!
The last sentence isn't clear?
It's not risqué it's non consensual activity.
My last sentence refers to men who say they want their wife to be approached when she's on a night out because they *know* she wants it really or those who want a couple to meet them accidentally in a bar without her knowing. The number of men who reply saying they're willing to help the guy out. Help him out for Christ's sake
. The woman's feelings, safety or agreement are not significant to these people. "There is a profile on here that wants to be flashed and I was approaching it from that aspect of consensual activity..not non-consensual. | |||
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"Look at how women on here are called out as killjoys, forum police etc if they raise objections to flashing or men colluding with other men to approach their wife when she's out. If that is the case its good that you raised it! Such things as flashing SHOULD preferably be done indoors and if you get caught otherwise IT IS ON YOU (Haha) I understand a bit of risqué..but their may be awful consequences for others and self!
The last sentence isn't clear?
It's not risqué it's non consensual activity.
My last sentence refers to men who say they want their wife to be approached when she's on a night out because they *know* she wants it really or those who want a couple to meet them accidentally in a bar without her knowing. The number of men who reply saying they're willing to help the guy out. Help him out for Christ's sake
. The woman's feelings, safety or agreement are not significant to these people. " Never come across such a helping a man out without said womans knowledge on here before..so that is new one to me.
Though I have no reason to doubt that.
I have also clarified why you recieved my earlier reply. | |||
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"Look at how women on here are called out as killjoys, forum police etc if they raise objections to flashing or men colluding with other men to approach their wife when she's out. If that is the case its good that you raised it! Such things as flashing SHOULD preferably be done indoors and if you get caught otherwise IT IS ON YOU (Haha) I understand a bit of risqué..but their may be awful consequences for others and self!
The last sentence isn't clear?
It's not risqué it's non consensual activity.
My last sentence refers to men who say they want their wife to be approached when she's on a night out because they *know* she wants it really or those who want a couple to meet them accidentally in a bar without her knowing. The number of men who reply saying they're willing to help the guy out. Help him out for Christ's sake
. The woman's feelings, safety or agreement are not significant to these people.
I always get the impression that blokes like that, posting that they want someone to seduce their wife / partner, are complete and utter fantasists. "And you've got one of the problems faced by women on the head. How do we know the guy saying these things has no intention of acting on his fantasy? | |||
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"I want to change my answer. I don't give a fuck if I am "liked" as a woman by society. I'm liked by my friends and colleagues and that's all I need. But I don't think women are universally respected in our society and that's what I want. Women being respected would mean they're not talked down to, treated as less because of their sex, told they're "hysterical" when they speak with emotion or passion, not mansplained to, paid equally and also have their caring responsibilities recognised as real work. When fighting violence against women is funded and prioritised by the government. When girls aren't wolf-whistled from age 12. When women on Fab don't receive hundreds of messages treating them as sexual objects, and less than human. I want that respect for women. " You have expressed yourself. | |||
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"Look at how women on here are called out as killjoys, forum police etc if they raise objections to flashing or men colluding with other men to approach their wife when she's out. If that is the case its good that you raised it! Such things as flashing SHOULD preferably be done indoors and if you get caught otherwise IT IS ON YOU (Haha) I understand a bit of risqué..but their may be awful consequences for others and self!
The last sentence isn't clear?
It's not risqué it's non consensual activity.
My last sentence refers to men who say they want their wife to be approached when she's on a night out because they *know* she wants it really or those who want a couple to meet them accidentally in a bar without her knowing. The number of men who reply saying they're willing to help the guy out. Help him out for Christ's sake
. The woman's feelings, safety or agreement are not significant to these people.
I always get the impression that blokes like that, posting that they want someone to seduce their wife / partner, are complete and utter fantasists.
And you've got one of the problems faced by women on the head. How do we know the guy saying these things has no intention of acting on his fantasy?
"*Hit not got | |||
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"Look at how women on here are called out as killjoys, forum police etc if they raise objections to flashing or men colluding with other men to approach their wife when she's out. If that is the case its good that you raised it! Such things as flashing SHOULD preferably be done indoors and if you get caught otherwise IT IS ON YOU (Haha) I understand a bit of risqué..but their may be awful consequences for others and self!
The last sentence isn't clear?
It's not risqué it's non consensual activity.
My last sentence refers to men who say they want their wife to be approached when she's on a night out because they *know* she wants it really or those who want a couple to meet them accidentally in a bar without her knowing. The number of men who reply saying they're willing to help the guy out. Help him out for Christ's sake
. The woman's feelings, safety or agreement are not significant to these people.
I always get the impression that blokes like that, posting that they want someone to seduce their wife / partner, are complete and utter fantasists.
And you've got one of the problems faced by women on the head. How do we know the guy saying these things has no intention of acting on his fantasy?
"True ... if he actually sets up an encounter where he is pointing someone at his other half in an aim to see them seduced, then that is clearly not a good situation. But I genuinely feel that the guys who say they want this are just fantasists and if someone said ok what date/time/location, they’d shit themselves ... they just want to have a chat about the imaginary scenario. | |||
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"Look at how women on here are called out as killjoys, forum police etc if they raise objections to flashing or men colluding with other men to approach their wife when she's out. If that is the case its good that you raised it! Such things as flashing SHOULD preferably be done indoors and if you get caught otherwise IT IS ON YOU (Haha) I understand a bit of risqué..but their may be awful consequences for others and self!
The last sentence isn't clear?
It's not risqué it's non consensual activity.
My last sentence refers to men who say they want their wife to be approached when she's on a night out because they *know* she wants it really or those who want a couple to meet them accidentally in a bar without her knowing. The number of men who reply saying they're willing to help the guy out. Help him out for Christ's sake
. The woman's feelings, safety or agreement are not significant to these people.
I always get the impression that blokes like that, posting that they want someone to seduce their wife / partner, are complete and utter fantasists.
And you've got one of the problems faced by women on the head. How do we know the guy saying these things has no intention of acting on his fantasy?
True ... if he actually sets up an encounter where he is pointing someone at his other half in an aim to see them seduced, then that is clearly not a good situation. But I genuinely feel that the guys who say they want this are just fantasists and if someone said ok what date/time/location, they’d shit themselves ... they just want to have a chat about the imaginary scenario. "Anything to say that might lift the women's spirits? | |||
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 Suck it up buttercup, this lady is more than a kitchen maid. | |||
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"Look at how women on here are called out as killjoys, forum police etc if they raise objections to flashing or men colluding with other men to approach their wife when she's out. If that is the case its good that you raised it! Such things as flashing SHOULD preferably be done indoors and if you get caught otherwise IT IS ON YOU (Haha) I understand a bit of risqué..but their may be awful consequences for others and self!
The last sentence isn't clear?
It's not risqué it's non consensual activity.
My last sentence refers to men who say they want their wife to be approached when she's on a night out because they *know* she wants it really or those who want a couple to meet them accidentally in a bar without her knowing. The number of men who reply saying they're willing to help the guy out. Help him out for Christ's sake
. The woman's feelings, safety or agreement are not significant to these people.
I always get the impression that blokes like that, posting that they want someone to seduce their wife / partner, are complete and utter fantasists.
And you've got one of the problems faced by women on the head. How do we know the guy saying these things has no intention of acting on his fantasy?
True ... if he actually sets up an encounter where he is pointing someone at his other half in an aim to see them seduced, then that is clearly not a good situation. But I genuinely feel that the guys who say they want this are just fantasists and if someone said ok what date/time/location, they’d shit themselves ... they just want to have a chat about the imaginary scenario. "So just a bit of "harmless" fun? I've heard that so many times from men about other men's clear suggestions that they disrespect women. | |||
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"Look at how women on here are called out as killjoys, forum police etc if they raise objections to flashing or men colluding with other men to approach their wife when she's out. If that is the case its good that you raised it! Such things as flashing SHOULD preferably be done indoors and if you get caught otherwise IT IS ON YOU (Haha) I understand a bit of risqué..but their may be awful consequences for others and self!
The last sentence isn't clear?
It's not risqué it's non consensual activity.
My last sentence refers to men who say they want their wife to be approached when she's on a night out because they *know* she wants it really or those who want a couple to meet them accidentally in a bar without her knowing. The number of men who reply saying they're willing to help the guy out. Help him out for Christ's sake
. The woman's feelings, safety or agreement are not significant to these people.
I always get the impression that blokes like that, posting that they want someone to seduce their wife / partner, are complete and utter fantasists.
And you've got one of the problems faced by women on the head. How do we know the guy saying these things has no intention of acting on his fantasy?
True ... if he actually sets up an encounter where he is pointing someone at his other half in an aim to see them seduced, then that is clearly not a good situation. But I genuinely feel that the guys who say they want this are just fantasists and if someone said ok what date/time/location, they’d shit themselves ... they just want to have a chat about the imaginary scenario. Anything to say that might lift the women's spirits?"How do you mean? | |||
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"Look at how women on here are called out as killjoys, forum police etc if they raise objections to flashing or men colluding with other men to approach their wife when she's out. If that is the case its good that you raised it! Such things as flashing SHOULD preferably be done indoors and if you get caught otherwise IT IS ON YOU (Haha) I understand a bit of risqué..but their may be awful consequences for others and self!
The last sentence isn't clear?
It's not risqué it's non consensual activity.
My last sentence refers to men who say they want their wife to be approached when she's on a night out because they *know* she wants it really or those who want a couple to meet them accidentally in a bar without her knowing. The number of men who reply saying they're willing to help the guy out. Help him out for Christ's sake
. The woman's feelings, safety or agreement are not significant to these people.
I always get the impression that blokes like that, posting that they want someone to seduce their wife / partner, are complete and utter fantasists.
And you've got one of the problems faced by women on the head. How do we know the guy saying these things has no intention of acting on his fantasy?
True ... if he actually sets up an encounter where he is pointing someone at his other half in an aim to see them seduced, then that is clearly not a good situation. But I genuinely feel that the guys who say they want this are just fantasists and if someone said ok what date/time/location, they’d shit themselves ... they just want to have a chat about the imaginary scenario.
So just a bit of "harmless" fun? I've heard that so many times from men about other men's clear suggestions that they disrespect women." | |||
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"To Women of the UK. Do you think the culture as a whole is a culture that traditionally has liking for women? " Most modern cultures are patriarchal in nature. Even in the so called progressive UK. When women can't feel safe to walk in a street without getting hassled I'd say we have a problem here. When the top police in the country suggest women modify their behaviour to prevent problems rather than addressing the more obvious male violence towards women I'd say we have a problem. In our families and relationships us men are generally respectful to our wives gfs mothers daughters and sisters. But the sad truth is a lot of me think women outside their family home are fair game for abuse. E | |||
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"Look at how women on here are called out as killjoys, forum police etc if they raise objections to flashing or men colluding with other men to approach their wife when she's out. If that is the case its good that you raised it! Such things as flashing SHOULD preferably be done indoors and if you get caught otherwise IT IS ON YOU (Haha) I understand a bit of risqué..but their may be awful consequences for others and self!
The last sentence isn't clear?
It's not risqué it's non consensual activity.
My last sentence refers to men who say they want their wife to be approached when she's on a night out because they *know* she wants it really or those who want a couple to meet them accidentally in a bar without her knowing. The number of men who reply saying they're willing to help the guy out. Help him out for Christ's sake
. The woman's feelings, safety or agreement are not significant to these people.
I always get the impression that blokes like that, posting that they want someone to seduce their wife / partner, are complete and utter fantasists.
And you've got one of the problems faced by women on the head. How do we know the guy saying these things has no intention of acting on his fantasy?
True ... if he actually sets up an encounter where he is pointing someone at his other half in an aim to see them seduced, then that is clearly not a good situation. But I genuinely feel that the guys who say they want this are just fantasists and if someone said ok what date/time/location, they’d shit themselves ... they just want to have a chat about the imaginary scenario.
So just a bit of "harmless" fun? I've heard that so many times from men about other men's clear suggestions that they disrespect women."No, I don’t say that. You seem determined to misrepresent what I actually post. If it’s just fantasy then it’s pretty pointless. And if they are for real then it is pretty ugly. But creating the scenario, whether they intend on making it a reality or not, is not good. | |||
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"There is a narrative to push women into thinking drinking too much is a plus. Social media is proof. Maybe I don't like that because it's a huge negative for me."  How does this relate to the OP's question to women? | |||
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"This is a fascinating thread, certainly got my brain going this morning! Female equality as a concept always bothers me. As Granny says, why are we trying to be the same as men? That suggests all men are a homogeneous grrr powerful strong being which all women aspire to be, to my mind... Equity seems a better aspiration. The understanding that for people to be afforded the same opportunities, some need different supports to others at different times. In my experience, a person who is universally liked is one who doesn't rock the boat. So no, I don't go out of my way to be liked
Mrs TMN x" | |||
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"Look at how women on here are called out as killjoys, forum police etc if they raise objections to flashing or men colluding with other men to approach their wife when she's out. If that is the case its good that you raised it! Such things as flashing SHOULD preferably be done indoors and if you get caught otherwise IT IS ON YOU (Haha) I understand a bit of risqué..but their may be awful consequences for others and self!
The last sentence isn't clear?
It's not risqué it's non consensual activity.
My last sentence refers to men who say they want their wife to be approached when she's on a night out because they *know* she wants it really or those who want a couple to meet them accidentally in a bar without her knowing. The number of men who reply saying they're willing to help the guy out. Help him out for Christ's sake
. The woman's feelings, safety or agreement are not significant to these people.
I always get the impression that blokes like that, posting that they want someone to seduce their wife / partner, are complete and utter fantasists.
And you've got one of the problems faced by women on the head. How do we know the guy saying these things has no intention of acting on his fantasy?
True ... if he actually sets up an encounter where he is pointing someone at his other half in an aim to see them seduced, then that is clearly not a good situation. But I genuinely feel that the guys who say they want this are just fantasists and if someone said ok what date/time/location, they’d shit themselves ... they just want to have a chat about the imaginary scenario.
So just a bit of "harmless" fun? I've heard that so many times from men about other men's clear suggestions that they disrespect women.
No, I don’t say that. You seem determined to misrepresent what I actually post.
If it’s just fantasy then it’s pretty pointless. And if they are for real then it is pretty ugly. But creating the scenario, whether they intend on making it a reality or not, is not good. "I'm not misrepresenting what you post I'm seeing it through the lens of my experience. | |||
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"This is a fascinating thread, certainly got my brain going this morning! Female equality as a concept always bothers me. As Granny says, why are we trying to be the same as men? That suggests all men are a homogeneous grrr powerful strong being which all women aspire to be, to my mind... Equity seems a better aspiration. The understanding that for people to be afforded the same opportunities, some need different supports to others at different times. In my experience, a person who is universally liked is one who doesn't rock the boat. So no, I don't go out of my way to be liked
Mrs TMN x I am glad about the fact that there are different female voices and not all voices will be initially liked..BUT they should be given a fair consideration."Well yes, they should. Giving someone respect and fair consideration is not the same as liking, though. I like some people and not others; the opposite is also true. And that's OK. Mrs TMN x | |||
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"Look at how women on here are called out as killjoys, forum police etc if they raise objections to flashing or men colluding with other men to approach their wife when she's out. If that is the case its good that you raised it! Such things as flashing SHOULD preferably be done indoors and if you get caught otherwise IT IS ON YOU (Haha) I understand a bit of risqué..but their may be awful consequences for others and self!
The last sentence isn't clear?
It's not risqué it's non consensual activity.
My last sentence refers to men who say they want their wife to be approached when she's on a night out because they *know* she wants it really or those who want a couple to meet them accidentally in a bar without her knowing. The number of men who reply saying they're willing to help the guy out. Help him out for Christ's sake
. The woman's feelings, safety or agreement are not significant to these people.
I always get the impression that blokes like that, posting that they want someone to seduce their wife / partner, are complete and utter fantasists.
And you've got one of the problems faced by women on the head. How do we know the guy saying these things has no intention of acting on his fantasy?
True ... if he actually sets up an encounter where he is pointing someone at his other half in an aim to see them seduced, then that is clearly not a good situation. But I genuinely feel that the guys who say they want this are just fantasists and if someone said ok what date/time/location, they’d shit themselves ... they just want to have a chat about the imaginary scenario.
So just a bit of "harmless" fun? I've heard that so many times from men about other men's clear suggestions that they disrespect women.
No, I don’t say that. You seem determined to misrepresent what I actually post.
If it’s just fantasy then it’s pretty pointless. And if they are for real then it is pretty ugly. But creating the scenario, whether they intend on making it a reality or not, is not good.
I'm not misrepresenting what you post I'm seeing it through the lens of my experience. "If you want my to clarify any of my posts, please ask and I will be happier to oblige. But twisting things to say that I suggested the behaviour was “a bit of harmless fun” is a deliberate misrepresentation. | |||
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"This is a fascinating thread, certainly got my brain going this morning! Female equality as a concept always bothers me. As Granny says, why are we trying to be the same as men? That suggests all men are a homogeneous grrr powerful strong being which all women aspire to be, to my mind... Equity seems a better aspiration. The understanding that for people to be afforded the same opportunities, some need different supports to others at different times. In my experience, a person who is universally liked is one who doesn't rock the boat. So no, I don't go out of my way to be liked
Mrs TMN x I am glad about the fact that there are different female voices and not all voices will be initially liked..BUT they should be given a fair consideration.
Well yes, they should. Giving someone respect and fair consideration is not the same as liking, though. I like some people and not others; the opposite is also true. And that's OK.
Mrs TMN x"Well put. That’s why I was querying the question earlier in the thread. “Liking” someone doesn’t really get things anywhere ... respecting them, treating them fairly, giving them equal opportunities has a lot more substance to it. Which is why I questioned the choice of the word “like”. I respect a lot more people than I like, which seems to be want you are saying too. | |||
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"Look at how women on here are called out as killjoys, forum police etc if they raise objections to flashing or men colluding with other men to approach their wife when she's out. If that is the case its good that you raised it! Such things as flashing SHOULD preferably be done indoors and if you get caught otherwise IT IS ON YOU (Haha) I understand a bit of risqué..but their may be awful consequences for others and self!
The last sentence isn't clear?
It's not risqué it's non consensual activity.
My last sentence refers to men who say they want their wife to be approached when she's on a night out because they *know* she wants it really or those who want a couple to meet them accidentally in a bar without her knowing. The number of men who reply saying they're willing to help the guy out. Help him out for Christ's sake
. The woman's feelings, safety or agreement are not significant to these people.
I always get the impression that blokes like that, posting that they want someone to seduce their wife / partner, are complete and utter fantasists.
And you've got one of the problems faced by women on the head. How do we know the guy saying these things has no intention of acting on his fantasy?
True ... if he actually sets up an encounter where he is pointing someone at his other half in an aim to see them seduced, then that is clearly not a good situation. But I genuinely feel that the guys who say they want this are just fantasists and if someone said ok what date/time/location, they’d shit themselves ... they just want to have a chat about the imaginary scenario.
So just a bit of "harmless" fun? I've heard that so many times from men about other men's clear suggestions that they disrespect women.
No, I don’t say that. You seem determined to misrepresent what I actually post.
If it’s just fantasy then it’s pretty pointless. And if they are for real then it is pretty ugly. But creating the scenario, whether they intend on making it a reality or not, is not good.
I'm not misrepresenting what you post I'm seeing it through the lens of my experience.
If you want my to clarify any of my posts, please ask and I will be happier to oblige. But twisting things to say that I suggested the behaviour was “a bit of harmless fun” is a deliberate misrepresentation. "Ok, thank you I say again I did not deliberately misrepresent (I emphasise deliberately) you I'm sorry if you feel that I did. | |||
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"Look at how women on here are called out as killjoys, forum police etc if they raise objections to flashing or men colluding with other men to approach their wife when she's out. If that is the case its good that you raised it! Such things as flashing SHOULD preferably be done indoors and if you get caught otherwise IT IS ON YOU (Haha) I understand a bit of risqué..but their may be awful consequences for others and self!
The last sentence isn't clear?
It's not risqué it's non consensual activity.
My last sentence refers to men who say they want their wife to be approached when she's on a night out because they *know* she wants it really or those who want a couple to meet them accidentally in a bar without her knowing. The number of men who reply saying they're willing to help the guy out. Help him out for Christ's sake
. The woman's feelings, safety or agreement are not significant to these people.
I always get the impression that blokes like that, posting that they want someone to seduce their wife / partner, are complete and utter fantasists.
And you've got one of the problems faced by women on the head. How do we know the guy saying these things has no intention of acting on his fantasy?
True ... if he actually sets up an encounter where he is pointing someone at his other half in an aim to see them seduced, then that is clearly not a good situation. But I genuinely feel that the guys who say they want this are just fantasists and if someone said ok what date/time/location, they’d shit themselves ... they just want to have a chat about the imaginary scenario.
So just a bit of "harmless" fun? I've heard that so many times from men about other men's clear suggestions that they disrespect women.
No, I don’t say that. You seem determined to misrepresent what I actually post.
If it’s just fantasy then it’s pretty pointless. And if they are for real then it is pretty ugly. But creating the scenario, whether they intend on making it a reality or not, is not good.
I'm not misrepresenting what you post I'm seeing it through the lens of my experience.
If you want my to clarify any of my posts, please ask and I will be happier to oblige. But twisting things to say that I suggested the behaviour was “a bit of harmless fun” is a deliberate misrepresentation.
Ok, thank you
I say again I did not deliberately misrepresent (I emphasise deliberately) you I'm sorry if you feel that I did. "Thanks | |||
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"I mean look at the tampon tax as an example.. Or female mutilation... The sexual pressure that is placed on our (female) children.. The fact that men don't r*pe women... the blame culture (she was asking for it).. Domestic violence which is factually mostly caused by men on women... The fact that i will be paid less than my male colleagues regardless of my ability and the fact that my male colleague is way more likely to get the promotion than me where we are equally or better talented Gosh so many examples Good examples Midnight, I've been thinking about modern examples of "disliking" women and this covers them. I want to add something to that.
Men or women that like to use women to make money for them but ONLY truly value them for that money.
I'm thinking of the traditional brothel establishment.
How much impact do you think such places may have/had impact on things in the area of our discussion.
Would such places promote a liking for Women?
Well at least in a brothel a woman is paid for services rendered and it's an honest transaction (well hopefully they are there by choice and are not trafficked or co-erced)
You will be amazed at how many girls have been sexually abused through early to late adult years.. We don't report it, because men don't believe it ... It's just a bit of fun that is misunderstood
I don't actually think brothels have much weight overall " I see a point you have raised and wisdom needs to be exercised when protecting. | |||
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"I can't speak for all women, only myself. Depends by who you are seeking approval from. Some people I have met have liked and respected me, some people haven't, I feel liked and respected by some people, not by all. That's the way life is. I try my best to be pleasant company most of the time which helps, I was raised old school and know what it takes to be a good wife, a good mother, a good employee, a good hostess, a good neighbour, and good at what other situations I find myself in too wherever possible. I am sure there are those I have come into conflict with who probably hate my guts because when I'm vexed they sure know it, hardcore!!! As much as I can be a good friend, I can be a bad enemy too. It's about being emotionally mature, about applying proper social graces, and it's about being fully assertive (which doesn't mean being a stroppy bully for those who haven't come across the term before). As a society I feel the UK has a long way to go when it comes to full equality, the old boys network is slowly changing, but where I live it is sadly somewhat alive and kicking. Like they ask my Husband first if they want to know something about me, and they refer to me as my Husbands' Mrs... and I'm stared at for wanting to use power tools and paint brushes like I crawled out from under a stone... As for wheelbarrows and spades when there's stuff to shift, just forget it and make the coffee woman....know your place, is it??? Well they know what they can do with that idea. Suck it up buttercup, this lady is more than a kitchen maid." I'm glad to hear you are physically robust and can do what needs to be done..my mum was like that too.
You mentioned the old boys network and I was going to ask, do some women help to promulgate that, support it and prop it up? I am reminded of Grannies comment along the lines of the only threat to me is class..you'll have to find it in the comments above for exactness.
So are such proppers up if they exist the enemies of women? | |||
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"I would say looking at the glass ceiling and equality... and considering how women are treated generally by society and the government that perhaps whilst we are liked, we are not 'valued'.. Most especially by men I think there’s some truth in what you say. There are evidently a lot of changes in ‘public’ be it in areas of equality, pay opportunity and general attitude. But in ‘private’ a lot of the old cliched behaviour is still there. I think when male dominated WhatsApp groups stop sending memes featuring women being led ‘romantically’ to the kitchen sink, or overly sexualised then that might be a sign that things are genuinely changing. " Personal conduct. | |||
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"I would say looking at the glass ceiling and equality... and considering how women are treated generally by society and the government that perhaps whilst we are liked, we are not 'valued'.. Most especially by men I think there’s some truth in what you say. There are evidently a lot of changes in ‘public’ be it in areas of equality, pay opportunity and general attitude. But in ‘private’ a lot of the old cliched behaviour is still there. I think when male dominated WhatsApp groups stop sending memes featuring women being led ‘romantically’ to the kitchen sink, or overly sexualised then that might be a sign that things are genuinely changing. Personal conduct."Re changes in public behaviour vs behaviour in private ... I think a lot of people have learned that certain opinions and conduct are no longer acceptable in public, so have learned that bury or hide those opinions and conduct, but they haven’t really changed how they think. But the online world has in some cases given people the chance to express those thoughts anonymously or semi-anonymously so it seems as though things are a cat thallus getting worse. For example, people on Twitter posting stuff about footballers, but wouldn’t shout the same things at an actual game as they would be more likely to get in trouble. So the learned behaviour of what is acceptable is improving in public but yes, some old attitudes are still there. | |||
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