FabSwingers.com forum: First Transgender athlete to compete at Olympics

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Story here: Laurel Hubbard: First transgender athlete to compete at Olympics https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-57549653

A great day for inclusion, or a bad day for Cis Female athletes?

Some say provided testosterone levels are below a certain threshold there is no unfair advantage, others say that there are biological advantages of those who have gone through puberty as males, such as increased bone and muscle density.

I’m no expert on the subject to be honest so what do you think?

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By *aitonelMan
over a year ago

Liverpool

Me and my barge pole are going home!

(I'm also not really sure personally as there are so many "facts" that support both sides so couldn't give an opinion on it other that what I just have done)

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By *pursChick aka ShortieWoman
over a year ago

On a mooch

If their testerone levels are to high they might have to go through what Caster Semenya went through, as others will complain about unfair competition.

Caster, a cis female, had a condition that saw her naturally produce high levels of testerone and battled with the athletics world for many years

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"If their testerone levels are to high they might have to go through what Caster Semenya went through, as others will complain about unfair competition.

Caster, a cis female, had a condition that saw her naturally produce high levels of testerone and battled with the athletics world for many years "

I think in this case, the testosterone levels are within accepted levels for female sports, however the athlete involved (a weightlifter) was born a male and transitioned after puberty so a slightly different scenario to Semenya.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So being trans woman and on HRT (I take oestrogen and anti androgens) I can say that for the majority of girls on the same boat, that really weakens you. As the effect on the body apart from redistribution and feminisation, is also muscle loss and hence loss of strength.

So if the testosterone level is on the avarage as a cis woman (some trans girls actually keep it even lower) I don’t see why that should be a problem.

I think, obviously I’m not athlete, but your avarage woman can currently outdo me in strength as I’ve noticed such changes since I started my full transition.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I do wonder really where we have to draw the line on certain things.

I'm all fir equality and inclusuon, however, where certain sports are concerned, male and female participants compete separately for a very good reason - Men would have a distinct physical advantage. It's nothing to do with prejudice, it's a simple fact of nature.

Now, take that same sport and introduce a Transgender competitor, who was born a male, but has undergone various treatments and surgeries to become female. That person will still likely have the physicality and muscular structure of a male, I would assume, and so hace an unfair advantage competing against other women.

I am, of course no expert and I will hapily give way to those more knowledgeable on the subject. Perhaps one of our Trans members could provide some insight

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By *pursChick aka ShortieWoman
over a year ago

On a mooch

"If their testerone levels are to high they might have to go through what Caster Semenya went through, as others will complain about unfair competition.

Caster, a cis female, had a condition that saw her naturally produce high levels of testerone and battled with the athletics world for many years

Yes a different scenario, but I do see a long battle ahead with complaints from others for the supposed advantages she may have.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If their testerone levels are to high they might have to go through what Caster Semenya went through, as others will complain about unfair competition.

Caster, a cis female, had a condition that saw her naturally produce high levels of testerone and battled with the athletics world for many years

There are some cisgender women who are framed like hulk .. so do they have a fair advantage in strength compared to others? Probably. But we don’t make an issue because she looks like hulk.

So I think, if the trans woman is on full hormones, and being through with the effect of them, I think it’s fair.

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By *isces WomanWoman
over a year ago

West London

The male pelvis is narrower than the female and therefore will always bring faster. You can't change that. Cis women will be disadvantaged to some degree.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Shouldn't be allowed in my opinion.

Early studies are suggesting that trans athletes still retain a significant advantage in muscle cross sectional area and in strength.

They are smallish sample sizes and it's early days but until there is hard evidence of no advantage it shouldn't be allowed.

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By *isces WomanWoman
over a year ago

West London

Semenya is intersex not cis female. Its a grey area that will have its controversy. Both trans genders.

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By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)

I think that it’s a great day for inclusivity and I’d be surprised if it gave any real advantages.

Obviously people will have opinions but unless you’re a doctor studying advanced biology, it will be based on scant information and third party sources.

I seem to remember before London 2012, there was a lot of shouting about Oscar Pistorius having an unfair advantage owing to his blades, which was proven to be erroneous but born from the same sort of thought process.

If she’s been cleared to compete, then she can compete and we should celebrate her

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The male pelvis is narrower than the female and therefore will always bring faster. You can't change that. Cis women will be disadvantaged to some degree."

And women will always/tend to be more flexible so perfect gymnasts or ice skaters compared to your avarage man.

I think it’d be less of a sensation if you seen a trans girl athlete who was 5’5” and looked like a girl compared to the more obvious ones

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"I think that it’s a great day for inclusivity and I’d be surprised if it gave any real advantages.

Obviously people will have opinions but unless you’re a doctor studying advanced biology, it will be based on scant information and third party sources.

If she’s been cleared to compete, then she can compete and we should celebrate her"

Absolutely

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By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)

"Shouldn't be allowed in my opinion.

Early studies are suggesting that trans athletes still retain a significant advantage in muscle cross sectional area and in strength.

They are smallish sample sizes and it's early days but until there is hard evidence of no advantage it shouldn't be allowed."

Is it going to provide a greater advantage than the difference between Serena Williams and Naomi Osaka? Both cis women yet very different physically and in musculature.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Shouldn't be allowed in my opinion.

Early studies are suggesting that trans athletes still retain a significant advantage in muscle cross sectional area and in strength.

They are smallish sample sizes and it's early days but until there is hard evidence of no advantage it shouldn't be allowed.

Is it going to provide a greater advantage than the difference between Serena Williams and Naomi Osaka? Both cis women yet very different physically and in musculature.

Quite possibly in some areas.

Grip strength is one of the best indicators of overall strength.

A few studies have shown that trans athletes have a 25% advantage in this area.

That's huge, particularly in weight lifting.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Shouldn't be allowed in my opinion.

Early studies are suggesting that trans athletes still retain a significant advantage in muscle cross sectional area and in strength.

They are smallish sample sizes and it's early days but until there is hard evidence of no advantage it shouldn't be allowed.

Is it going to provide a greater advantage than the difference between Serena Williams and Naomi Osaka? Both cis women yet very different physically and in musculature.

Exactly! What I said before, some actual cis women might be naturally more built. People used to say the same thing about the olympics in 1940 when having black people compete and say they had an advantage if it was fair. They called black people names that u can imagine..

I think it’s a matter of time and it will be normalised. Remember, trans girls, as cis girls.. come in all different shapes and sizes. Some will be taller, some will be shorter…

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I haven’t read any medical studies so genuinely can’t bring anything scientific to the argument about physiological advantages (or not) that trans athletes have.

The IOC and the appropriate governing weightlifting bodies must have given approval to this so I am sure that they’ve studied the science and are happy that it gives a level playing field. So in that respect I guess I’m happy.

The only niggle I have is that it always seems to be male to female trans athletes that excel in their chosen sport and not female to male, for example this weightlifter, Rachel McKinnon in cycling, Fallon Fox in MMA etc

An average (cis) male will have a height, weight and strength advantage over an average (cis) female (I accept this is not necessarily the case for exceptional specimens of both birth sexes) so is this all lost during transition? Like I say, I don’t know, I’ve not studied the science!

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By *uckandbunnyCouple
over a year ago

In your bed

Back in the 1980's East Germany hormone doped their female athletes during years of training.

They then pulled the doping to allow their hormones to return to "normal" levels for competition.

That was deemed to be wrong at the time. Whilst this is not organised and has been an individuals choice I can see that less scrupulous countries will start to demand some males train for several years as male and then transition to gain that long standing edge.

Yes when they transition they will loose muscle mass and strength, but they will be starting from a higher level and so that drop will be still putting them in the top range of female performance.

For you average person who has not trained for 10-20 years, then the difference between male and female performance in say the parents race at school is not gonna make much difference as the average difference will be far less.

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By *VineMan
over a year ago

The right place

I think this is a really tricky area to be fair and just to all.

My current view is that it should be allowed and that we learn from real world experience. If trans women start winning or medaling at a disproportionately high rate maybe it will need to be reviewed. But let’s try it and see. We might be making a fuss over nothing.

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By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)

"Shouldn't be allowed in my opinion.

Early studies are suggesting that trans athletes still retain a significant advantage in muscle cross sectional area and in strength.

They are smallish sample sizes and it's early days but until there is hard evidence of no advantage it shouldn't be allowed.

Is it going to provide a greater advantage than the difference between Serena Williams and Naomi Osaka? Both cis women yet very different physically and in musculature.

Quite possibly in some areas.

Grip strength is one of the best indicators of overall strength.

A few studies have shown that trans athletes have a 25% advantage in this area.

That's huge, particularly in weight lifting.

Less so in athletics though.

I see your point but if she’s been cleared to compete, then surely they consider it fair?

The information that we have to hand and what we read will pale in comparison to the Olympic doctors understanding of this matter and the information that they have.

Also, at what point are we going to start regulating on the grounds of biological advantage based on genetics? If we’re so concerned about these advantages, where is the line drawn?

Fast twitch muscle reflex action, which is required for top level sprinting success amongst other sports, is proven to be present at much higher levels in Afro-Caribbean ancestry, is that an unfair advantage too?

If you’re seeking a level playing field, who sets that level, where is the line and if we look closely enough, unfair advantages are everywhere

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By *uckandbunnyCouple
over a year ago

In your bed

"Shouldn't be allowed in my opinion.

Early studies are suggesting that trans athletes still retain a significant advantage in muscle cross sectional area and in strength.

They are smallish sample sizes and it's early days but until there is hard evidence of no advantage it shouldn't be allowed.

Is it going to provide a greater advantage than the difference between Serena Williams and Naomi Osaka? Both cis women yet very different physically and in musculature.

Quite possibly in some areas.

Grip strength is one of the best indicators of overall strength.

A few studies have shown that trans athletes have a 25% advantage in this area.

That's huge, particularly in weight lifting.

Less so in athletics though.

I see your point but if she’s been cleared to compete, then surely they consider it fair?

The information that we have to hand and what we read will pale in comparison to the Olympic doctors understanding of this matter and the information that they have.

Also, at what point are we going to start regulating on the grounds of biological advantage based on genetics? If we’re so concerned about these advantages, where is the line drawn?

If you’re seeking a level playing field, who sets that level, where is the line and if we look closely enough, unfair advantages are everywhere"

I'm which case why have separate categories.

Just let all humans compete in one category.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Shouldn't be allowed in my opinion.

Early studies are suggesting that trans athletes still retain a significant advantage in muscle cross sectional area and in strength.

They are smallish sample sizes and it's early days but until there is hard evidence of no advantage it shouldn't be allowed.

Is it going to provide a greater advantage than the difference between Serena Williams and Naomi Osaka? Both cis women yet very different physically and in musculature.

Quite possibly in some areas.

Grip strength is one of the best indicators of overall strength.

A few studies have shown that trans athletes have a 25% advantage in this area.

That's huge, particularly in weight lifting.

Less so in athletics though.

I see your point but if she’s been cleared to compete, then surely they consider it fair?

The information that we have to hand and what we read will pale in comparison to the Olympic doctors understanding of this matter and the information that they have.

Also, at what point are we going to start regulating on the grounds of biological advantage based on genetics? If we’re so concerned about these advantages, where is the line drawn?

If you’re seeking a level playing field, who sets that level, where is the line and if we look closely enough, unfair advantages are everywhere

I'm which case why have separate categories.

Just let all humans compete in one category. "

Or do competition on race… orientals have less chance in certain sports and be better in others … sounds very stupid to me.

I think we should just try out and see. And a lot of the problem is people who just think... “But she’s just a man with a wig/long hair”

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By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)

"Shouldn't be allowed in my opinion.

Early studies are suggesting that trans athletes still retain a significant advantage in muscle cross sectional area and in strength.

They are smallish sample sizes and it's early days but until there is hard evidence of no advantage it shouldn't be allowed.

Is it going to provide a greater advantage than the difference between Serena Williams and Naomi Osaka? Both cis women yet very different physically and in musculature.

Quite possibly in some areas.

Grip strength is one of the best indicators of overall strength.

A few studies have shown that trans athletes have a 25% advantage in this area.

That's huge, particularly in weight lifting.

Less so in athletics though.

I see your point but if she’s been cleared to compete, then surely they consider it fair?

The information that we have to hand and what we read will pale in comparison to the Olympic doctors understanding of this matter and the information that they have.

Also, at what point are we going to start regulating on the grounds of biological advantage based on genetics? If we’re so concerned about these advantages, where is the line drawn?

If you’re seeking a level playing field, who sets that level, where is the line and if we look closely enough, unfair advantages are everywhere

I'm which case why have separate categories.

Just let all humans compete in one category. "

That’s an incredibly reductive comment and I hope that you’re aware that’s not what I’m saying.

My point is that people are hugely biologically disparate and if we look closely enough, there are huge advantages based upon genetics and physical predisposition within cisgendered individuals.

We’re getting so focused on level playing fields that we’re looking at individual blades of grass, which is contradictory to the point of sport

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Test levels aside the issue is moe as mentioned already the muscle and tendon density, strength that would have already developed. This doesn't go away.

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By *hagTonightMan
over a year ago

From the land of haribos.

[Removed by poster at 21/06/21 09:55:05]

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By *hagTonightMan
over a year ago

From the land of haribos.

"Shouldn't be allowed in my opinion.

Early studies are suggesting that trans athletes still retain a significant advantage in muscle cross sectional area and in strength.

They are smallish sample sizes and it's early days but until there is hard evidence of no advantage it shouldn't be allowed.

Is it going to provide a greater advantage than the difference between Serena Williams and Naomi Osaka? Both cis women yet very different physically and in musculature.

Quite possibly in some areas.

Grip strength is one of the best indicators of overall strength.

A few studies have shown that trans athletes have a 25% advantage in this area.

That's huge, particularly in weight lifting.

"
Yes, there will be an advantage. I think that they should have different divisions, like there are in the olympics and other sports like bodybuilding and boxing.

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By *rPeachyMan
over a year ago

Bristol

"Shouldn't be allowed in my opinion.

Early studies are suggesting that trans athletes still retain a significant advantage in muscle cross sectional area and in strength.

They are smallish sample sizes and it's early days but until there is hard evidence of no advantage it shouldn't be allowed.

Is it going to provide a greater advantage than the difference between Serena Williams and Naomi Osaka? Both cis women yet very different physically and in musculature.

Quite possibly in some areas.

Grip strength is one of the best indicators of overall strength.

A few studies have shown that trans athletes have a 25% advantage in this area.

That's huge, particularly in weight lifting.

Yes, there will be an advantage. I think that they should have different divisions, like there are in the olympics and other sports like bodybuilding and boxing."

Indeed, we can quibble over post-op hormone levels as long as we like, but it can't be ignored that if someone grew their entire lives as a man then they are at an advantage physically

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Test levels aside the issue is moe as mentioned already the muscle and tendon density, strength that would have already developed. This doesn't go away. "

Not true, as women on oestrogen and hormone replace therapy will go through muscle atrophy even if they keep up with the work outs

Obviously I don’t do anything of the extent of what they do, I do yoga regularly but since hormones, my upper body strength and muscles are weaking loads to the point I can’t hold certain positions as strength isn’t there.

Of course the more you train the more you might not feel that. But hormones are powerful things and do change the body and brain of the person taking them.

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By *tew008Man
over a year ago

edinburgh

Everyone competes together and takes as many drugs as possible. Be entertaining.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Test levels aside the issue is moe as mentioned already the muscle and tendon density, strength that would have already developed. This doesn't go away.

Not true, as women on oestrogen and hormone replace therapy will go through muscle atrophy even if they keep up with the work outs

Of course the more you train the more you might not feel that. But hormones are powerful things and do change the body and brain of the person taking them."

Muscle will fit sure deteriorate but tendon density won't, especially if still training.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Shouldn't trans athletes compete in the Paralympics because there missing a limb?

Joke everyone x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Test levels aside the issue is moe as mentioned already the muscle and tendon density, strength that would have already developed. This doesn't go away.

Not true, as women on oestrogen and hormone replace therapy will go through muscle atrophy even if they keep up with the work outs

Of course the more you train the more you might not feel that. But hormones are powerful things and do change the body and brain of the person taking them.

Muscle will fit sure deteriorate but tendon density won't, especially if still training."

Bone density too

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By *rPeachyMan
over a year ago

Bristol

I think people here need to embrace the positives.

Christiano Ronaldo is 36 and surely due for retirement soon. If he transitions to a woman we can still enjoy watching her in woman's football for probably another 30 years.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Test levels aside the issue is moe as mentioned already the muscle and tendon density, strength that would have already developed. This doesn't go away.

Not true, as women on oestrogen and hormone replace therapy will go through muscle atrophy even if they keep up with the work outs

Of course the more you train the more you might not feel that. But hormones are powerful things and do change the body and brain of the person taking them.

Muscle will fit sure deteriorate but tendon density won't, especially if still training.

Bone density too"

Bone density can be affected actually by anti androgens, like spironolactone. To the point it is told and monitored by doctors.

I can’t talk as I was always crappy at sports, but I think we should try and see. And if the trans athlete is on full HRT, and all and lived as a woman authentically for years. Then why not.

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By *ersey GirlCouple
over a year ago

Glasgow

Has there been any females transitioning to become a male that have competed in a male sport at competition level?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Has there been any females transitioning to become a male that have competed in a male sport at competition level?

This would be interesting as obviously they’d need to be on testosterone. Do they have to prove the testosterone level is on range as the avarage male athlete? As if it’s hire it’s probably considered doping?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Has there been any females transitioning to become a male that have competed in a male sport at competition level?

I’m not aware of any, the ones that tend to excel are male to female and I outlined some examples earlier, which is one of the reasons I think (without any scientific or medical evidence to support it) that there might be something in the “unfair advantage” thing.

Some pretty average male competitors become top female competitors - such as the weightlifter in question and Rachel McKinnon in cycling etc.

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By *uckandbunnyCouple
over a year ago

In your bed

In the end does it matter who can lift more weight.

Sure it is a feat of human strength, but maybe we put too much emphasis on who can do more physically.

Especially since physical ability has for humanity has long since been surpassed by wealth and mental ability.

Yet we seem to retain that animal instinct to want to know who is at the top of the group.

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By *aria_dreamgirlTV/TS
over a year ago

stockport

I think people should recall those female athletes who took anabolic steroids many years ago to win Olympic medals for East European countries.So I think its unfair to discriminate now against transgender athletes.

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By *hagTonightMan
over a year ago

From the land of haribos.

"Shouldn't be allowed in my opinion.

Early studies are suggesting that trans athletes still retain a significant advantage in muscle cross sectional area and in strength.

They are smallish sample sizes and it's early days but until there is hard evidence of no advantage it shouldn't be allowed.

Is it going to provide a greater advantage than the difference between Serena Williams and Naomi Osaka? Both cis women yet very different physically and in musculature.

Quite possibly in some areas.

Grip strength is one of the best indicators of overall strength.

A few studies have shown that trans athletes have a 25% advantage in this area.

That's huge, particularly in weight lifting.

Yes, there will be an advantage. I think that they should have different divisions, like there are in the olympics and other sports like bodybuilding and boxing.

Indeed, we can quibble over post-op hormone levels as long as we like, but it can't be ignored that if someone grew their entire lives as a man then they are at an advantage physically"
Yes, they will always have higher test levels than what women would have.

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By *rPeachyMan
over a year ago

Bristol

"In the end does it matter who can lift more weight.

Sure it is a feat of human strength, but maybe we put too much emphasis on who can do more physically.

Especially since physical ability has for humanity has long since been surpassed by wealth and mental ability.

Yet we seem to retain that animal instinct to want to know who is at the top of the group."

It's the Olympic Games, so yes, physical performance is kinda the whole point of it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"In the end does it matter who can lift more weight.

Sure it is a feat of human strength, but maybe we put too much emphasis on who can do more physically.

Especially since physical ability has for humanity has long since been surpassed by wealth and mental ability.

Yet we seem to retain that animal instinct to want to know who is at the top of the group."

It matters to the women competing who have dedicated their life to something.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Let's take a Male average tennis player..he starts treatment to become a female and joins women's tennis,he would still have the speed and power to become a top 5 women's tennis player....is this fair on women?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Shouldn't be allowed in my opinion.

Early studies are suggesting that trans athletes still retain a significant advantage in muscle cross sectional area and in strength.

They are smallish sample sizes and it's early days but until there is hard evidence of no advantage it shouldn't be allowed.

Is it going to provide a greater advantage than the difference between Serena Williams and Naomi Osaka? Both cis women yet very different physically and in musculature.

Quite possibly in some areas.

Grip strength is one of the best indicators of overall strength.

A few studies have shown that trans athletes have a 25% advantage in this area.

That's huge, particularly in weight lifting.

Yes, there will be an advantage. I think that they should have different divisions, like there are in the olympics and other sports like bodybuilding and boxing.

Indeed, we can quibble over post-op hormone levels as long as we like, but it can't be ignored that if someone grew their entire lives as a man then they are at an advantage physicallyYes, they will always have higher test levels than what women would have."

Based on? It would be interesting to see the medical reports of the test levels

If they take HRT, It is pretty common for trans to have less testosterone in their body than ur avarage girls if they take anti-androgens and oestrogen. And estradiol levels in the women’s range or higher.

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By *uckandbunnyCouple
over a year ago

In your bed

"In the end does it matter who can lift more weight.

Sure it is a feat of human strength, but maybe we put too much emphasis on who can do more physically.

Especially since physical ability has for humanity has long since been surpassed by wealth and mental ability.

Yet we seem to retain that animal instinct to want to know who is at the top of the group.

It's the Olympic Games, so yes, physical performance is kinda the whole point of it."

In which case why draw any lines. Any line drawn will be arbitrary. Take the decision on which sports are allowed to compete, changes every 4 years as do the events in those sports.

These changes can knock out potential medal winners from competing.

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By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)

"Let's take a Male average tennis player..he starts treatment to become a female and joins women's tennis,he would still have the speed and power to become a top 5 women's tennis player....is this fair on women?"

Based on what examples or studies?

You’re making assumptions

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By *rPeachyMan
over a year ago

Bristol

"In the end does it matter who can lift more weight.

Sure it is a feat of human strength, but maybe we put too much emphasis on who can do more physically.

Especially since physical ability has for humanity has long since been surpassed by wealth and mental ability.

Yet we seem to retain that animal instinct to want to know who is at the top of the group.

It's the Olympic Games, so yes, physical performance is kinda the whole point of it.

In which case why draw any lines. Any line drawn will be arbitrary. Take the decision on which sports are allowed to compete, changes every 4 years as do the events in those sports.

These changes can knock out potential medal winners from competing."

Think you're missing the whole point of the Olympics here.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So in this case, are you suggesting that a player that is out of the game, say 2-3 years of his life to become a female (it isn’t a joke like you would put a wig on and that’s it) ..because that’s how long it can take to fully transition. And I bet that would affect performance on everyone.

Do you think she’d still can compete in the men’s games wearing a skirt and all and has boobs? Or she can’t compete at all? What’s your suggestion I’m curious ..

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By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)

"Shouldn't be allowed in my opinion.

Early studies are suggesting that trans athletes still retain a significant advantage in muscle cross sectional area and in strength.

They are smallish sample sizes and it's early days but until there is hard evidence of no advantage it shouldn't be allowed.

Is it going to provide a greater advantage than the difference between Serena Williams and Naomi Osaka? Both cis women yet very different physically and in musculature.

Quite possibly in some areas.

Grip strength is one of the best indicators of overall strength.

A few studies have shown that trans athletes have a 25% advantage in this area.

That's huge, particularly in weight lifting.

Yes, there will be an advantage. I think that they should have different divisions, like there are in the olympics and other sports like bodybuilding and boxing.

Indeed, we can quibble over post-op hormone levels as long as we like, but it can't be ignored that if someone grew their entire lives as a man then they are at an advantage physicallyYes, they will always have higher test levels than what women would have."

Always?

What studies have been done? Where’s the evidence?

In this topic, making broad statements without empirical data is just opinion dressed as fact.

Without directly studying the effects of HRT on athletes, we simply don’t have the whole picture and are making reactionary assumptions, at best.

As I said earlier; people made assumptions about Pistorius and his blades based on reactionary opinion.

Let the experts decide (as they have)

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By *uckandbunnyCouple
over a year ago

In your bed

"Shouldn't be allowed in my opinion.

Early studies are suggesting that trans athletes still retain a significant advantage in muscle cross sectional area and in strength.

They are smallish sample sizes and it's early days but until there is hard evidence of no advantage it shouldn't be allowed.

Is it going to provide a greater advantage than the difference between Serena Williams and Naomi Osaka? Both cis women yet very different physically and in musculature.

Quite possibly in some areas.

Grip strength is one of the best indicators of overall strength.

A few studies have shown that trans athletes have a 25% advantage in this area.

That's huge, particularly in weight lifting.

Yes, there will be an advantage. I think that they should have different divisions, like there are in the olympics and other sports like bodybuilding and boxing.

Indeed, we can quibble over post-op hormone levels as long as we like, but it can't be ignored that if someone grew their entire lives as a man then they are at an advantage physicallyYes, they will always have higher test levels than what women would have.

Based on? It would be interesting to see the medical reports of the test levels

But these are not average humans they were men at the peak of physical condition, so giving an example of an average trans person does not really apply as on average some females will always outperform some males.

But athletes are at the extreme range of human endeavour and a male athletes have a huge start.

A quick Google shows the heaviest weight lifted by a male is 484kg.

The heaviest by a female is 335kg.

Now it was a quick Google and so I'm happy to be corrected on the figures but you are talking about people competing at a 25% difference.

So on transition even if they lose 20% of their ability, that still puts them in the top range of their new category.

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By *uckandbunnyCouple
over a year ago

In your bed

"In the end does it matter who can lift more weight.

Sure it is a feat of human strength, but maybe we put too much emphasis on who can do more physically.

Especially since physical ability has for humanity has long since been surpassed by wealth and mental ability.

Yet we seem to retain that animal instinct to want to know who is at the top of the group.

It's the Olympic Games, so yes, physical performance is kinda the whole point of it.

In which case why draw any lines. Any line drawn will be arbitrary. Take the decision on which sports are allowed to compete, changes every 4 years as do the events in those sports.

These changes can knock out potential medal winners from competing.

Think you're missing the whole point of the Olympics here."

No you missed my point but let's not go back several messages

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By *aitonelMan
over a year ago

Liverpool

Backtracking on my previous comment at the top. I have something to add.

At the very least I think that the length of time they have lived as a Transwoman, and age at which they started should be taken in to account. So the majority of their training should be done as a trans woman and not trained as a fully formed adult male who finally is able to transition. The original blueprint advantages are there.

It should be trialed much more. On a competitive level just to see how often trans women win or come close to winning these sports. In its own division for the time being.

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By *rPeachyMan
over a year ago

Bristol

If only there was some way of measuring the performance of transgender women versus women and we could settle this debate once and for all.

Maybe some kind of professionally staged competetion...?

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By *uckandbunnyCouple
over a year ago

In your bed

"If only there was some way of measuring the performance of transgender women versus women and we could settle this debate once and for all.

Maybe some kind of professionally staged competetion...? "

Indeed, but whilst it is a trial for the future, those competing now are looking at current impacts.

I suspect the medal is only part of it, I imagine winners (and runners up) get offers of sponsorship etc.

So whilst it is a great test for humanity, for some they may feel their efforts over the last 10-20 years are going to be tangibly impacted.

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By *rPeachyMan
over a year ago

Bristol

Maybe transitioning could tempt a few of our great sportsmen out of retirement?

Pretty sure if Lineker was up for it she'd get a game no problem.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Backtracking on my previous comment at the top. I have something to add.

It should be trialed much more. On a competitive level just to see how often trans women win or come close to winning these sports. In its own division for the time being. "

I think this should be fair on how long has a (trans) woman lived authentically as a woman. Taking HRT and all, and for a certain amount of years.

As said, transitioning takes time and can take its toll if done properly. And I think that should be outlined and I think that’s fair.

It wouldn’t be fair to have a male athlete (say Jake) wake up one day and say he wants to become a she because that’s how she feels now and enter a major competition 2 months later as Jennifer.

But that’s not usually how it works even when transitioning, it takes time with doctors and therapists …

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I don’t know much about the science of it all but as a trans woman I can no longer undo lids or lift much weight.

My ex wife had to help me, all 5’2” of her raw power!

I used to feel I could have ripped the top off of things rather than undo them but now I get frustrated just how weak I’ve become.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don’t know much about the science of it all but as a trans woman I can no longer undo lids or lift much weight.

My ex wife had to help me, all 5’2” of her raw power!

I used to feel I could have ripped the top off of things rather than undo them but now I get frustrated just how weak I’ve become. "

Ha gurllll, thank you! I felt so stupid cos I also can’t open jars and certain yoga positions I have to give up on half way through while other women can easily hold them till the end no problems. I shake so bad my body just can’t take it (I could before but can’t now)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don’t know much about the science of it all but as a trans woman I can no longer undo lids or lift much weight.

My ex wife had to help me, all 5’2” of her raw power!

I used to feel I could have ripped the top off of things rather than undo them but now I get frustrated just how weak I’ve become.

I think we forget how strong and potent can hormones affect the body.

I mean, think testosterone how it enhances physically … hence why it’s banned for cisgender men.

anti androgens and oestrogen definitely affect muscle mass, strength , bone density so it’s virtually handy-capping. While obviously giving other benefits of feminisation such as tit growth, body fat redistribution to secondary female areas such as bum etc, also mental too

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don’t know much about the science of it all but as a trans woman I can no longer undo lids or lift much weight.

My ex wife had to help me, all 5’2” of her raw power!

I used to feel I could have ripped the top off of things rather than undo them but now I get frustrated just how weak I’ve become.

I sometimes wonder if I relied on having so much strength and missed out on all the years other women have learning technique.

I remember watching my dad and step mum play squash years ago. He walloped the ball trying to use raw power to hit her or get it to the opposite side of the court quickly.

She trounced him by using technique, delicately placing the ball close to the wall etc.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Based on what examples or studies?

You’re making assumptions "

Like everyone else on this thread....its an estimated example

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Your forgetting your talking about athletes...people who train every day and it's there life

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Based on what examples or studies?

You’re making assumptions

Like everyone else on this thread....its an estimated example "

Are people aware of how long it takes to get to the two years on treatment point?

You can’t just carry on living as a man while you wait to start hormones. You have to live ‘in role’ for two years before they will even begin to help you.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Your forgetting your talking about athletes...people who train every day and it's there life"

This might be true. But try and train every day when you start the process. When you get operations and you are out for weeks. Or even months if you reassign… it AINT easy.

As said before, it’s not just a matter of putting a wig on…. Being trans is not that.

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By *uckandbunnyCouple
over a year ago

In your bed

"Your forgetting your talking about athletes...people who train every day and it's there life

This might be true. But try and train every day when you start the process. When you get operations and you are out for weeks. Or even months if you reassign… it AINT easy.

As said before, it’s not just a matter of putting a wig on…. Being trans is not that."

I don't think anyone doubts how easy or difficult it is.

But the question is about does someone who has trained and competed at the top range of men's sport carry an unfair advantage into women's sport when they transition.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Your forgetting your talking about athletes...people who train every day and it's there life

This might be true. But try and train every day when you start the process. When you get operations and you are out for weeks. Or even months if you reassign… it AINT easy.

As said before, it’s not just a matter of putting a wig on…. Being trans is not that."

My point was if he has reached his level in that sport then should he change sex to compete against women....there are scrupulous people in the world who would consider this.....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Your forgetting your talking about athletes...people who train every day and it's there life

This might be true. But try and train every day when you start the process. When you get operations and you are out for weeks. Or even months if you reassign… it AINT easy.

As said before, it’s not just a matter of putting a wig on…. Being trans is not that.

I don't think anyone doubts how easy or difficult it is.

But the question is about does someone who has trained and competed at the top range of men's sport carry an unfair advantage into women's sport when they transition.

I think it mostly depends how quick she gets into the new competition, if she goes from men’s to women’s competition within months than probably that’d be unfair. Hence why there should be some outlines of how far into the transition has a girl gone and how she has lived as a woman. And test hormonal levels etc. It should be a few years at least.

So she’d need to either have transitioned very early and I bet there will be cases of trans girls who transitioned at 17-18 and become pro like at 20-21 and I think that’d be fair. Or withdraw momentarily from all major competitions and focus on transitioning and training if they feel like it, and come back a few years later having done it properly.

At least I think that’s how it should be anyway

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Your forgetting your talking about athletes...people who train every day and it's there life

This might be true. But try and train every day when you start the process. When you get operations and you are out for weeks. Or even months if you reassign… it AINT easy.

As said before, it’s not just a matter of putting a wig on…. Being trans is not that.

My point was if he has reached his level in that sport then should he change sex to compete against women....there are scrupulous people in the world who would consider this....."

Surely that wouldn’t be that easy? It almost sounds like… some men want to become women to go into women’s changing rooms or prison to do dirty things. Errrr… but instead the logic sounds almost like: Men who can’t win in their competition might want to become women so they can win as women. Because they are not.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Even Caitlyn Jenner is opposed to it

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By *ecadent_DevonMan
over a year ago

Okehampton

I think everyone has a right to “be” and that fundamentally someone’s right to “be” should not be at the expense of another’s right to “be”.

My concern is how this may affect women’s sport now and in the future.

I guess the answer is “wait and see”. If in 10 years time, if all (or a statically relevant proportion) of the world champions, gold medal winners and successful teams are made up of people who have transitioned then it will be indisputable that an advantage has been gained (not withstanding that percentage of those athletes who will be better through hard work, technique and dedication).

Ultimately time will tell, my biggest concern is that if it is statistically undeniable that an advantage has been gained how many brilliant young women (born female) will have lost out and how damaging could this be for female sport.

As much as I hate division and truly believe in the rights of an individual, I believe that the best course of action is to create a third category in sport.

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By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)

Based on what examples or studies?

You’re making assumptions

Like everyone else on this thread....its an estimated example "

That’s my point though. People are making assumptions based on their biases and assumptive understanding. Hence my point about Pistorius, which followed exactly the same route

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By *uckandbunnyCouple
over a year ago

In your bed

"Your forgetting your talking about athletes...people who train every day and it's there life

This might be true. But try and train every day when you start the process. When you get operations and you are out for weeks. Or even months if you reassign… it AINT easy.

As said before, it’s not just a matter of putting a wig on…. Being trans is not that.

My point was if he has reached his level in that sport then should he change sex to compete against women....there are scrupulous people in the world who would consider this.....

I doubt a man would do this as an individual to get a competitive advantage.

But not all athletes live in functioning democracies.

If it becomes clear that advantages are apparent I would not be shocked to see some countries enforcing it.

Its been done before with hormones and other medical and biological procedures.

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By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)

"Even Caitlyn Jenner is opposed to it"

That’s her opinion, she also supported Trump who was anti LGBTQ.

Her opinion does hold a level of value but she’s not going to be pushing for affirmative change, given her record

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think everyone has a right to “be” and that fundamentally someone’s right to “be” should not be at the expense of another’s right to “be”.

My concern is how this may affect women’s sport now and in the future.

As much as I hate division and truly believe in the rights of an individual, I believe that the best course of action is to create a third category in sport. "

That can be said in tracks and other sports where black women (and men) seem to dominate, its difficult for white or other races to compete against. Do they throw a fuss? No of course not.

I think we have to start thinking that transgender women who go through the whole journey of transitioning, are women. End of.

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By *ecadent_DevonMan
over a year ago

Okehampton

"I think everyone has a right to “be” and that fundamentally someone’s right to “be” should not be at the expense of another’s right to “be”.

My concern is how this may affect women’s sport now and in the future.

As much as I hate division and truly believe in the rights of an individual, I believe that the best course of action is to create a third category in sport.

That can be said in tracks and other sports where black women (and men) seem to dominate, its difficult for white or other races to compete against. Do they throw a fuss? No of course not.

I think we have to start thinking that transgender women who go through the whole journey of transitioning, are women. End of. "

That is your opinion and you are entitled too it. However I would disagree that athletic ability due to race is actually a thing. I would put it more down to opportunity and culture. Racial differences in athletic ability are a “myth” as a huge number of scientific papers have concluded. It is generally felt that the belief (often held by white people to justify losing) is based on a colonial era “myth” create by white people that black men were sexually more virile.

Having a third category of sport in this interim period where society finds its feet and (hopefully) comes to accept transitioned people will allow us to look at the performance of these athletes, to decipher and study whether advantage exists

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By *aitonelMan
over a year ago

Liverpool

"I think everyone has a right to “be” and that fundamentally someone’s right to “be” should not be at the expense of another’s right to “be”.

My concern is how this may affect women’s sport now and in the future.

As much as I hate division and truly believe in the rights of an individual, I believe that the best course of action is to create a third category in sport.

That can be said in tracks and other sports where black women (and men) seem to dominate, its difficult for white or other races to compete against. Do they throw a fuss? No of course not.

I think we have to start thinking that transgender women who go through the whole journey of transitioning, are women. End of.

I agree with this.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Backtracking on my previous comment at the top. I have something to add.

It should be trialed much more. On a competitive level just to see how often trans women win or come close to winning these sports. In its own division for the time being. "

I'm unsure how this could work given that it's now the case - in the UK anyway - that referral for any kind of treatment to begin physical transition cannot happen until adulthood is reached (parent of a trans teen here)

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By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)

"Backtracking on my previous comment at the top. I have something to add.

It should be trialed much more. On a competitive level just to see how often trans women win or come close to winning these sports. In its own division for the time being.

I wasn’t aware that this was the case. I was under the belief that a child could have ‘puberty delayed’ (the correct medical term evades me right now) whilst undergoing treatment, to prevent further trauma. Is this not the case now?

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By *uckandbunnyCouple
over a year ago

In your bed

"Backtracking on my previous comment at the top. I have something to add.

It should be trialed much more. On a competitive level just to see how often trans women win or come close to winning these sports. In its own division for the time being.

There are court cases ongoing to decide this.

Its complex with no simple answer and I'm not sure there is a legal outcome that can address all concerns raised from both sides.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

No it's not. My trans son has been living in role (social transitioning) for 2 years now and receiving support from gender identity services. He's almost 16 now but can't go any further til just before his 18th birthday when he then has to get a GP referral to the adult services. There's also currently no advantage to having accessed child services or having their confirmation of a diagnosis of gender dysphoria when it comes to accessing adult services (the latter I believe may only be the case here in NI), and so the process begins all over again.

Which is why it would be nigh on impossible for an athlete to do anything other than train as the gender assigned at birth until they reach adulthood.

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By *hetalkingstoveMan
over a year ago

London

Trans women have been allowed to compete in the Olympics since 2004.

Perhaps the fact that it has taken that long for a trans woman to qualify might mean that the competitive advantage is not what some people assume.

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By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)

"No it's not. My trans son has been living in role (social transitioning) for 2 years now and receiving support from gender identity services. He's almost 16 now but can't go any further til just before his 18th birthday when he then has to get a GP referral to the adult services. There's also currently no advantage to having accessed child services or having their confirmation of a diagnosis of gender dysphoria when it comes to accessing adult services (the latter I believe may only be the case here in NI), and so the process begins all over again.

Which is why it would be nigh on impossible for an athlete to do anything other than train as the gender assigned at birth until they reach adulthood."

I’m sorry to read that. It must be incredibly hard and upsetting for all of you

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By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)

"Backtracking on my previous comment at the top. I have something to add.

It should be trialed much more. On a competitive level just to see how often trans women win or come close to winning these sports. In its own division for the time being.

There are court cases ongoing to decide this.

Its complex with no simple answer and I'm not sure there is a legal outcome that can address all concerns raised from both sides. "

I agree.

This is often the case when trying to apply legislature to individual cases in complex situations

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Which is why it would be nigh on impossible for an athlete to do anything other than train as the gender assigned at birth until they reach adulthood.

I’m sorry to read that. It must be incredibly hard and upsetting for all of you"

Thank you. There are good days and bad days but thankfully the support we've received from KOI and the ongoing general psychological counselling through CAMHS has been invaluable. His school has been incredible too. He knows and accepts that the road ahead will be a long one, and whilst this does sometimes cause distress, transitioning socially has eased it to a degree

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By *uckandbunnyCouple
over a year ago

In your bed

I think we have to remember people are talking about their UK experiences.

Laws and rules will differ all over the world. So we can't assume personal experiences with a state run health care system to be the same as people in other countries.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think everyone has a right to “be” and that fundamentally someone’s right to “be” should not be at the expense of another’s right to “be”.

My concern is how this may affect women’s sport now and in the future.

As much as I hate division and truly believe in the rights of an individual, I believe that the best course of action is to create a third category in sport.

That can be said in tracks and other sports where black women (and men) seem to dominate, its difficult for white or other races to compete against. Do they throw a fuss? No of course not.

I think we have to start thinking that transgender women who go through the whole journey of transitioning, are women. End of.

Well I think some sports are more suited for certain races more than others and that’s to an extent true, like on what you say that trans women might have a certain advantage because of their background.

Like orientals will be more flexible , generally!

Regarding whites and tracks, there are some white guys doing track work but somehow at the highest level, they are the minority. Surely it isn’t just to do to the fact that white folks or orientals or Indians don’t like track. But maybe they are just better suited for certain sports than others.

Generally speaking, of course!!

For example, I know a bit about figure skating for example , and there are a lot of orientals in the higher ranks (girls) but somehow now that they added certain technical points that you can only achieve by having a lot of strength (like with triples triples etc), in the latest competitions they have been left behind a bit as artistry isn’t ranked as high or it isn’t enough. On the other hand, stronger women like the Russians, seem to be able to achieve more technically as they have more endurance. Maybe to do with frame, stature, etc etc etc. It’s undeniable tho to say that certain races are taller, or shorter or more built than others. We all come in different sizes and shapes and advantages/disadvantages.

Same as trans girls , all different

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By *uckandbunnyCouple
over a year ago

In your bed

I think the type of sport is key to the impact and long standing benefits.

Pure individual strength and speed sport are more likely to be impacted.

Team sports or skill sports are only likely to provide marginal gains if any at all.

So for example darts, snooker archery all less likely to have any gender bias.

One player in a women's rugby or football team again are less likely to impact the overall outcome.

Tennis is tricky as the serve is such a strong component of that game and the skill levels only account for a portion of ability (hence why some top severs go so far in tornements).

Had the sport been gymnastics, diving or synchronised swimming, I doubt top level female born athletes would have been as concerned.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think the type of sport is key to the impact and long standing benefits.

Pure individual strength and speed sport are more likely to be impacted.

Team sports or skill sports are only likely to provide marginal gains if any at all.

So for example darts, snooker archery all less likely to have any gender bias.

One player in a women's rugby or football team again are less likely to impact the overall outcome.

Tennis is tricky as the serve is such a strong component of that game and the skill levels only account for a portion of ability (hence why some top severs go so far in tornements).

Had the sport been gymnastics, diving or synchronised swimming, I doubt top level female born athletes would have been as concerned. "

Exactly, so if that’s the case for some sports then what is the solution? That us trans girl can only compete in certain sports along with cisgender women because we aren’t a concern? And some others can’t in other because they suddenly become a concern?

I think it will be a matter of super small numbers, as there aren’t that many trans girl in the population, cut out that majority of us who are not into sport or aren’t good (tbf I’m so shit I stick to yoga) , and cut more down as the ones who will be in sport, will need to be able to excel to compete in the Olympics. So the percentage of those who make it might be so minimal.. I doubt that we will see a podium in many sports taken by trans women. Lol

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Just seen this on Twitter (so hey, I know right, not the most reliable of sources

) but apparently Hubbard was a professional weightlifter before transitioning and between 1998 and 2012 failed to qualify for a single international men’s tournament as a professional weightlifter.

Hubbard then transitioned in 2013 aged 35.

Since then she’s qualified for 11 international women’s tournaments, including the Olympics, winning Silver at the World Championships and Gold at the Pacific Games.

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

wokingham

Feel sorry for the girl that trainer her whole life and missed out her spot on the Olympic team because a guy transitioned

Honestly it’s messed up. Have a trans league. Dunno how this is considered fair for anyone

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Oh my isnt this a can of worms. I dont ever think there will be unity on this issue, but what is the realistic alternative? Trans only competition, i doubt the numbers would warrant it, or make it profitable beyond a few years of novelty for the baying crowds. Clearly cant perform as males, so perhaps a Trans athlete needs to not just kept the Testosterone below said levels, but been on HRT for a set period of time and maintained those levels, barring perhaps some minor naturally occuring peaks. I don't know what the timescale should be, and its merely another idea thrown into the pot. I think in fairness if Trans do compete with CIS women, and start to dominate events then it needs looking at

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 22/06/21 08:43:33]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Oh my isnt this a can of worms. I dont ever think there will be unity on this issue, but what is the realistic alternative? Trans only competition, i doubt the numbers would warrant it, or make it profitable beyond a few years of novelty for the baying crowds. Clearly cant perform as males, so perhaps a Trans athlete needs to not just kept the Testosterone below said levels, but been on HRT for a set period of time and maintained those levels, barring perhaps some minor naturally occuring peaks. I don't know what the timescale should be, and its merely another idea thrown into the pot. I think in fairness if Trans do compete with CIS women, and start to dominate events then it needs looking at"

Agreed, as said I think some rules should be outlined (maybe they are but we don’t know??) like on how long they have had to have transitioned properly, the HRT levels and how long they have been on them, etc etc. I think we all agree (but seems unlikely anyway) that it shouldnt be done hastily (transitioning is a long process) and within weeks/months you go from men’s competition to females competition.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Feel sorry for the girl that trainer her whole life and missed out her spot on the Olympic team because a guy transitioned

Honestly it’s messed up. Have a trans league. Dunno how this is considered fair for anyone "

And the the Trans girl training to be told 'No' is fine...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Feel sorry for the girl that trainer her whole life and missed out her spot on the Olympic team because a guy transitioned

Honestly it’s messed up. Have a trans league. Dunno how this is considered fair for anyone

And the the Trans girl training to be told 'No' is fine..."

To be told “No… because in fact, you are STILL a man.”

That’s what it boils down to.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I absolutely don't think it's fair, having a trans catagory would be much fairer I think.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Feel sorry for the girl that trainer her whole life and missed out her spot on the Olympic team because a guy transitioned

Honestly it’s messed up. Have a trans league. Dunno how this is considered fair for anyone

And the the Trans girl training to be told 'No' is fine...

To be told “No… because in fact, you are STILL a man.”

That’s what it boils down to.

Is it though? Can we not accept that someone can transition to a female but retain some of the biological differences they developed pre-transition while still accepting them as a female.

There’s a difference between accepting someone as they gender they identify as, and legally are, after transition and recognising a potential difference in physiology.

This isn’t necessarily a bigotry issue.

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By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)

"Feel sorry for the girl that trainer her whole life and missed out her spot on the Olympic team because a guy transitioned

Honestly it’s messed up. Have a trans league. Dunno how this is considered fair for anyone "

People lose Olympic spots all of the time, it’s part and parcel of the sport. People lose spots because people change nationality and get squeezed out, because someone changes code or events.

It’s not like she decided yesterday and someone has to make room for her, she’s been training for a long time

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Feel sorry for the girl that trainer her whole life and missed out her spot on the Olympic team because a guy transitioned

Honestly it’s messed up. Have a trans league. Dunno how this is considered fair for anyone

And the the Trans girl training to be told 'No' is fine...

To be told “No… because in fact, you are STILL a man.”

That’s what it boils down to.

Is it though? Can we not accept that someone can transition to a female but retain some of the biological differences they developed pre-transition while still accepting them as a female.

There’s a difference between accepting someone as they gender they identify as, and legally are, after transition and recognising a potential difference in physiology.

This isn’t necessarily a bigotry issue. "

But where do we draw the line? So is it okay if

Exhibit A.

A boy transitions before puberty (it happens) with blockers and then oestrogen, developing into a pretty much, a female.

But not okay if

Exhibit B

A 25 something man doesn’t feel right with his body so becomes a female but happens to also be a good athlete. And I mean, she’d take time off and do operations, and be on HRT etc

Is one allowed because they developed differently? Or are we not allowing any because they actually were born male?

Do we create a side Olympic for trans people only? I don’t think there are THAT many trans athletes to compete in ALL categories anyway. do we do a LGBT freak olympics side show?

do we stop trans people competing altogether?

What’s the answer here?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Feel sorry for the girl that trainer her whole life and missed out her spot on the Olympic team because a guy transitioned

Honestly it’s messed up. Have a trans league. Dunno how this is considered fair for anyone

And the the Trans girl training to be told 'No' is fine...

To be told “No… because in fact, you are STILL a man.”

That’s what it boils down to.

Is it though? Can we not accept that someone can transition to a female but retain some of the biological differences they developed pre-transition while still accepting them as a female.

There’s a difference between accepting someone as they gender they identify as, and legally are, after transition and recognising a potential difference in physiology.

This isn’t necessarily a bigotry issue.

But where do we draw the line? So is it okay if

Exhibit A.

A boy transitions before puberty (it happens) with blockers and then oestrogen, developing into a pretty much, a female.

But not okay if

Exhibit B

A 25 something man doesn’t feel right with his body so becomes a female but happens to also be a good athlete. And I mean, she’d take time off and do operations, and be on HRT etc

Is one allowed because they developed differently? Or are we not allowing any because they actually were born male?

Do we create a side Olympic for trans people only? I don’t think there are THAT many trans athletes to compete in ALL categories anyway. do we do a LGBT freak olympics side show?

do we stop trans people competing altogether?

What’s the answer here? "

Well that’s exactly the dilemma we’re talking about on this thread isn’t it? There’s a whole raft of other threads that can talk about trans rights etc, this one was more about sporting integrity and of course it’s an emotive subject.

For example in this case, as I mentioned a little earlier today and further up the thread, this particular weightlifter wasn’t making any great impact in the world of male weightlifting as a professional pre-transition, but following transition at the age of 35 in 2013 has become a world-class elite female weightlifter.

Is that fair? I don’t know .. but let’s debate it.

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town

"Story here: Laurel Hubbard: First transgender athlete to compete at Olympics https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-57549653

A great day for inclusion, or a bad day for Cis Female athletes?

I’m no expert on the subject to be honest so what do you think?"

Are there many female to male Olympic standard athletes?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Story here: Laurel Hubbard: First transgender athlete to compete at Olympics https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-57549653

A great day for inclusion, or a bad day for Cis Female athletes?

I’m no expert on the subject to be honest so what do you think?

Are there many female to male Olympic standard athletes? "

I may be wrong but I don’t think there are THAT many Olympic standard trans athletes. Period lol

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

wokingham

Sounds like a have your cake and eat it too situation

You choose to transition, you should also opt out of competition. Shouldn’t be able to have both

Being a man for the majority of your life Hines you such an advantage and there’s science to back it all up.

From a purely scientific viewpoint and from a fairness view point this shouldn’t be allowed.

The issue is we are viewing these things without science and fairness in mind anymore

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town

"Story here: Laurel Hubbard: First transgender athlete to compete at Olympics https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-57549653

A great day for inclusion, or a bad day for Cis Female athletes?

I’m no expert on the subject to be honest so what do you think?

Are there many female to male Olympic standard athletes?

I may be wrong but I don’t think there are THAT many Olympic standard trans athletes. Period lol "

Perhaps. But there are enough to make a news story of it and divide opinion. However I suspect that this is only an issue when transitioning make to female as it confers a physical advantage over other athletes who haven't had the benefits of training as a man for years and years. I may be wrong but I don't think female to male athletes would be an issue.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Sounds like a have your cake and eat it too situation

You choose to transition, you should also opt out of competition. Shouldn’t be able to have both

Being a man for the majority of your life Hines you such an advantage and there’s science to back it all up.

From a purely scientific viewpoint and from a fairness view point this shouldn’t be allowed.

The issue is we are viewing these things without science and fairness in mind anymore "

You say choose to transition like it's deciding to drink tea instead of coffee.

How much of an issue is it really? It's not as if a host of male athletes are going to suddenly "choose" to transition so they can compete and be successful as female athletes instead?

Given the comparatively low number of trans athletes competing at top level, perhaps the way forward for now is to monitor results and performance while further studies are carried out?

And where do we draw the line? Do we insist trans children play sport as the gender they identify as?

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By *hilloutMan
over a year ago

All over the place! Northwesr, , Southwest

This should never have been allowed in the first place and the fault lies not with the athlete, but with the organisations that permitted this.

It matters not he if transitioned and current testosterone levels are lower. The underlying biology remains which gives this person a clear competitive edge. It's unfair and i'd go as far to say cheating.

This will lead to bioligical female athletes boycotting competitions which they're fully justified in doing.

It may also fracture the Olympic competition as much of the rest of the world is not in agreement with the "progressive" agenda the west heavily promotes.

If this sets a precedent, it wouldn't surprise me if many sports federations from a host of countries begin boycotting competitions that allow for situations like this to take place.

I also find it abhorrent that girls and women that legitimately protest this are labeled as hateful of "phobic".

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

wokingham

"Story here: Laurel Hubbard: First transgender athlete to compete at Olympics https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-57549653

A great day for inclusion, or a bad day for Cis Female athletes?

I’m no expert on the subject to be honest so what do you think?

Are there many female to male Olympic standard athletes?

I may be wrong but I don’t think there are THAT many Olympic standard trans athletes. Period lol

This is where I disagree, because it’s still an issue.

Fair competition is about coming in with no enhancements or biological changes. I don’t care if you take steroids and come last. Your still banned for life in my books. Same as with a FtM transition. You can’t compete in that league.

It’s not about winning or losing. It’s about fair sportsmanship (sportspersonship?)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"This should never have been allowed in the first place and the fault lies not with the athlete, but with the organisations that permitted this.

This will lead to bioligical female athletes boycotting competitions which they're fully justified in doing.

It may also fracture the Olympic competition as much of the rest of the world is not in agreement with the "progressive" agenda the west heavily promotes.

If this sets a precedent, it wouldn't surprise me if many sports federations from a host of countries begin boycotting competitions that allow for situations like this to take place.

I also find it abhorrent that girls and women that legitimately protest this are labeled as hateful of "phobic"."

This.

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

wokingham

"Sounds like a have your cake and eat it too situation

You choose to transition, you should also opt out of competition. Shouldn’t be able to have both

Being a man for the majority of your life Hines you such an advantage and there’s science to back it all up.

From a purely scientific viewpoint and from a fairness view point this shouldn’t be allowed.

The issue is we are viewing these things without science and fairness in mind anymore

You say choose to transition like it's deciding to drink tea instead of coffee.

How much of an issue is it really? It's not as if a host of male athletes are going to suddenly "choose" to transition so they can compete and be successful as female athletes instead?

Given the comparatively low number of trans athletes competing at top level, perhaps the way forward for now is to monitor results and performance while further studies are carried out?

And where do we draw the line? Do we insist trans children play sport as the gender they identify as?"

Fairness and sportsmanship doesn’t care if it’s 1 or 1000, or if they win or lose, it’s about being fair

As far as playing, play whatever you want.

I’m talking about competition and sadly in life we all have to make decisions. Born a man and want to win a weightlifting world title but also feel like a woman? It’s not an easy decision, but in my opinion you gotta pick one.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Sounds like a have your cake and eat it too situation

You choose to transition, you should also opt out of competition. Shouldn’t be able to have both

Being a man for the majority of your life Hines you such an advantage and there’s science to back it all up.

From a purely scientific viewpoint and from a fairness view point this shouldn’t be allowed.

The issue is we are viewing these things without science and fairness in mind anymore "

What else should we opt out of because we choose to transition ? (You make it sound like we chose vanilla instead of chocolate)

Would you feel it’s okay if the trans athlete was competing in a team sport or a sport based a lot on artistry? (Like artistic gymnastics, figure skating, syncro swimming?)

Either way, I feel like there’s always gonna be something else. Like beauty competitions, with some people being outraged if a trans girl wins and people say. But she’s a boy. Or best actress for same reasons? Thing is , it can literally trickle down to anything. It starts from well she has an advantage physically to more like, well she won and she’s a boy and it’s unfair on actual natural born females.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Story here: Laurel Hubbard: First transgender athlete to compete at Olympics https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-57549653

A great day for inclusion, or a bad day for Cis Female athletes?

I’m no expert on the subject to be honest so what do you think?

Are there many female to male Olympic standard athletes?

I may be wrong but I don’t think there are THAT many Olympic standard trans athletes. Period lol

Wouldn’t be an issue because he’s never gonna steal spots from cisgender men?

Bet it’d be an issue is said trans man would actually win and testosterone levels are on the higher level and they’d say… he’s fully doped and it’s unfair!

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

wokingham

"Sounds like a have your cake and eat it too situation

You choose to transition, you should also opt out of competition. Shouldn’t be able to have both

Being a man for the majority of your life Hines you such an advantage and there’s science to back it all up.

From a purely scientific viewpoint and from a fairness view point this shouldn’t be allowed.

The issue is we are viewing these things without science and fairness in mind anymore

What else should we opt out of because we choose to transition ? (You make it sound like we chose vanilla instead of chocolate)

Would you feel it’s okay if the trans athlete was competing in a team sport or a sport based a lot on artistry? (Like artistic gymnastics, figure skating, syncro swimming?)

I dunno about the rest because we’re discussing sports competitions where males have a proven advantage.

The rest is up for debate, I’m not well versed in that stuff. But in sports it’s night and day

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Of course there are far more female to male transitions…..

Lots of trans men compared to trans women.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"This should never have been allowed in the first place and the fault lies not with the athlete, but with the organisations that permitted this.

This will lead to bioligical female athletes boycotting competitions which they're fully justified in doing.

It may also fracture the Olympic competition as much of the rest of the world is not in agreement with the "progressive" agenda the west heavily promotes.

If this sets a precedent, it wouldn't surprise me if many sports federations from a host of countries begin boycotting competitions that allow for situations like this to take place.

I also find it abhorrent that girls and women that legitimately protest this are labeled as hateful of "phobic"."

Absolutely and totally agree with this ^^^ well said!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Sounds like a have your cake and eat it too situation

You choose to transition, you should also opt out of competition. Shouldn’t be able to have both

Being a man for the majority of your life Hines you such an advantage and there’s science to back it all up.

From a purely scientific viewpoint and from a fairness view point this shouldn’t be allowed.

The issue is we are viewing these things without science and fairness in mind anymore

What else should we opt out of because we choose to transition ? (You make it sound like we chose vanilla instead of chocolate)

Would you feel it’s okay if the trans athlete was competing in a team sport or a sport based a lot on artistry? (Like artistic gymnastics, figure skating, syncro swimming?)

I dunno about the rest because we’re discussing sports competitions where males have a proven advantage.

The rest is up for debate, I’m not well versed in that stuff. But in sports it’s night and day "

But surely that can’t be said on every single sport, because some cisgender women might be more agile, or more flexible, more precise in movements etc etc. So, would that be okay so long as trans women don’t become a problem?

Just wondering x

Either way, it should be interesting how this pans out …. and I’ll be looking out on all them trans people stealing medals and apparently dominating in every sport lol

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By *rumpyMcFuckNuggetMan
over a year ago

Den of Iniquity

"This should never have been allowed in the first place and the fault lies not with the athlete, but with the organisations that permitted this.

This will lead to bioligical female athletes boycotting competitions which they're fully justified in doing.

It may also fracture the Olympic competition as much of the rest of the world is not in agreement with the "progressive" agenda the west heavily promotes.

If this sets a precedent, it wouldn't surprise me if many sports federations from a host of countries begin boycotting competitions that allow for situations like this to take place.

I also find it abhorrent that girls and women that legitimately protest this are labeled as hateful of "phobic".

Absolutely and totally agree with this ^^^ well said! "

As do I. Its not a transitioning issue here at all , it'd gaining a clear competitive advantage and is unfair