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Gender self identification

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By *ucktop OP   Man
over a year ago

London

Do you agree that people should be free to choose their gender irrespective of whether they’ve had surgery?

Curious to hear points of view of people from different parts of the gender scale. Personally I tend to think no, but I can’t say I’ve got a direct understanding of the issue. I have never experienced any gender uncertainty myself despite sexually being attracted to men.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It doesn't matter if people have had the surgery or not, they know who they are inside. Everyone is entitled to be and should be encouraged to be who they want to be. Anyone who takes this step has a lot of courage and I have nothing but respect for them

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

they can identify as whatever they want but should they have full access to closed “safe” spaces set aside for that gender is a bigger harder issue to solve I think?

eg womens refuges sports changing rooms etc,

some will say of course anyone should be allowed based on their self identity but others will say there should be strict criteria before anyone identifying as the opposite sex to their birth sex can be allowed access

I don’t know the answer but do know feelings are strong on both sides

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

I didn't think anyone's identification required permission or approval.

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By *ucktop OP   Man
over a year ago

London


"I didn't think anyone's identification required permission or approval."

Well it does legally. Of course you can call yourself what you like but it’s of limited value if not recognised by the law.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"I didn't think anyone's identification required permission or approval.

Well it does legally. Of course you can call yourself what you like but it’s of limited value if not recognised by the law. "

Ok

I support trans people and recognise the enormous challenges they face in having their identity recognised, legally or otherwise, and trans women are welcome to pee or change in peace as far as I'm concerned.

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By *ts the taking part thatMan
over a year ago

southampton

People can of course call themselves what ever they want but it is a pretence to say you can change gender.

We all know gender is rigid and any other view is just pandering to people and should stop.

Wokery will say otherwise but you are the gender you were born to. FACT.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I didn't think anyone's identification required permission or approval."

It really does with a healthcare setting

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By *stellaWoman
over a year ago

London


"Do you agree that people should be free to choose their gender irrespective of whether they’ve had surgery?

"

Yes


"

Curious to hear points of view of people from different parts of the gender scale. Personally I tend to think no, but I can’t say I’ve got a direct understanding of the issue. I have never experienced any gender uncertainty myself despite sexually being attracted to men. "

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *irginieWoman
over a year ago

Near Marlborough


"People can of course call themselves what ever they want but it is a pretence to say you can change gender.

We all know gender is rigid and any other view is just pandering to people and should stop.

Wokery will say otherwise but you are the gender you were born to. FACT."

Oh dear

Entirely not fact...... FACT

V x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I've nicked some of the text of my reply so it's not all my own, but since we've existed there's cultures that have revered more than two genders. Terms such as “transgender” and “gay” are strictly new constructs that assume three things: that there are only two sexes (male/female), two sexualities (gay/straight), and only two genders (man/woman).

Many have for third, fourth, fifth, or more genders, we just have no concept of them in our modern society. Genitalia is only part of the equation.

I identify as a straght male. But that my prerogative.

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By *lenderfoxMan
over a year ago

Leeds


"People can of course call themselves what ever they want but it is a pretence to say you can change gender.

We all know gender is rigid and any other view is just pandering to people and should stop.

Wokery will say otherwise but you are the gender you were born to. FACT."

This isn't true, there's plenty of science behind it

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By *acey_RedWoman
over a year ago

Liverpool

Absolutely. The same way a woman is under no obligation to have reconstructive surgery after a mastectomy just because she's a woman and it doesn't make her any less a woman.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *olly_chromaticTV/TS
over a year ago

Stockport


"People can of course call themselves what ever they want but it is a pretence to say you can change gender.

We all know gender is rigid and any other view is just pandering to people and should stop.

Wokery will say otherwise but you are the gender you were born to. FACT."

Boring. Saying fact in capital letters doesn't make it so, just shows that you have no actual argument. Having done this whole discussion many times now, I really couldn't be arsed to go through it again. Go read some proper books about gender, look up some of the ancient threads on fab covering the topic, get to know some actual transpeople. Walk a mile in someone elses shoes before you just blithely insult their existence.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *aitonelMan
over a year ago

Liverpool


"People can of course call themselves what ever they want but it is a pretence to say you can change gender.

We all know gender is rigid and any other view is just pandering to people and should stop.

Wokery will say otherwise but you are the gender you were born to. FACT."

Gender is certainly not rigid.

Sex, that's a much more difficult and more complex rabbit hole, that won't ever be concluded within a forum the likes of this.

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By * Sophie xTV/TS
over a year ago

Derby


"People can of course call themselves what ever they want but it is a pretence to say you can change gender.

We all know gender is rigid and any other view is just pandering to people and should stop.

Wokery will say otherwise but you are the gender you were born to. FACT."

And Christians and all other religions says its FACT that "God" exists

It isn't wokery that says otherwise that you aren't the gender your genitals say you are or why would the medical profession approve gender reassignment?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

OP .. I agreed with myself who and what I am and wait for people and society to catch up

You've opened a can of worms with this thread so will watch with interest.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I feel that any adult over the age of 18

Should be free express themselves in any way they feel

Personally I believe in having children and supporting them is the reason we are alive...

So I do not support children being subjected to trans media... yet possibly hypocritical as a 40 year old straight(deviant)

I support sexually affirmative adults who have battled with their own personal confusions and trust they are happy in their decisions

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I’ve said before I don’t care how anyone identifies good for them and I will address them by their pronouns if that’s what they want.

where people never answer tho is should a birth male who recently identifies themselves as female be allowed into the school or swimming pool communal showers naked with everything on show with other users and what about the views of the other users?

It’s a real issue that needs to be answered but everyone always just talks around it I don’t know what the answer is that addresses everyones concerns until everywhere has neutral cubicles but that will take a lot of time

Whatever the answer is one side of the debate will get upset I’m glad it isnt me that has to make the policy

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"I’ve said before I don’t care how anyone identifies good for them and I will address them by their pronouns if that’s what they want.

where people never answer tho is should a birth male who recently identifies themselves as female be allowed into the school or swimming pool communal showers naked with everything on show with other users and what about the views of the other users?

It’s a real issue that needs to be answered but everyone always just talks around it I don’t know what the answer is that addresses everyones concerns until everywhere has neutral cubicles but that will take a lot of time

Whatever the answer is one side of the debate will get upset I’m glad it isnt me that has to make the policy "

I welcome them.

Trans women are welcome in the same spaces as I inhabit. Including naked, where appropriate.

Hope that helps.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I’ve said before I don’t care how anyone identifies good for them and I will address them by their pronouns if that’s what they want.

where people never answer tho is should a birth male who recently identifies themselves as female be allowed into the school or swimming pool communal showers naked with everything on show with other users and what about the views of the other users?

It’s a real issue that needs to be answered but everyone always just talks around it I don’t know what the answer is that addresses everyones concerns until everywhere has neutral cubicles but that will take a lot of time

Whatever the answer is one side of the debate will get upset I’m glad it isnt me that has to make the policy

I welcome them.

Trans women are welcome in the same spaces as I inhabit. Including naked, where appropriate.

Hope that helps."

Does it help those women that dont welcome it tho thats the issue.

not all women want birth males in their safe spaces however they identify so should their views be ignored like I say I dont know the answer you have one view others will have an opposite view and who decides who is right?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The problem with being happy with your self personification in a world governed by mass media is a constant confusion

Whether your friends accept you is a next stage to whatever identification you propose

Best rule is to fuck off all outside influence and do what you want

Quote frank sinatra ‘I did it my way’

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"I’ve said before I don’t care how anyone identifies good for them and I will address them by their pronouns if that’s what they want.

where people never answer tho is should a birth male who recently identifies themselves as female be allowed into the school or swimming pool communal showers naked with everything on show with other users and what about the views of the other users?

It’s a real issue that needs to be answered but everyone always just talks around it I don’t know what the answer is that addresses everyones concerns until everywhere has neutral cubicles but that will take a lot of time

Whatever the answer is one side of the debate will get upset I’m glad it isnt me that has to make the policy

I welcome them.

Trans women are welcome in the same spaces as I inhabit. Including naked, where appropriate.

Hope that helps.

Does it help those women that dont welcome it tho thats the issue.

not all women want birth males in their safe spaces however they identify so should their views be ignored like I say I dont know the answer you have one view others will have an opposite view and who decides who is right?"

I said "I" welcome them. Not that I'm dictating what everyone should do.

Also, any female changing room I've been in (apart from swinging clubs), the nudity is pretty minimal, we do it in cubicles or facing the wall...

I recognise that trans women face more threat needing to pee than I do, generally. And I don't view a public toilet or changing room as a "safe space"...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I look forward to the day when we just view each other as fellow humans without the need for boxes that we feel the need to either put ourselves or other people in.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I look forward to the day when we just view each other as fellow humans without the need for boxes that we feel the need to either put ourselves or other people in.

"

Wise words

I believe in equality... but this is a huge topic that cannot be explained simply

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By *ucktop OP   Man
over a year ago

London


"Terms such as “transgender” and “gay” are strictly new constructs that assume three things: that there are only two sexes (male/female), two sexualities (gay/straight), and only two genders (man/woman).

Many have for third, fourth, fifth, or more genders, we just have no concept of them in our modern society. Genitalia is only part of the equation.

"

I quite agree with this, but for me, this is an argument against self-identification in one of just two genders. Instead accept there’s a wide spectrum and trans people are somewhere in there like everyone else.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *otsossieMan
over a year ago

Chesterfield


"Wokery will say otherwise but you are the gender you were born to. FACT.

————-

This isn't true, there's plenty of science behind it"

I came here to say this. Personal politics aside, biologically there are at least 4 sexes.

Gender is more esoteric and is a social construct.

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By *otsossieMan
over a year ago

Chesterfield


"And I don't view a public toilet or changing room as a "safe space"..."

Quite.

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town


"People can of course call themselves what ever they want but it is a pretence to say you can change gender.

We all know gender is rigid and any other view is just pandering to people and should stop.

Wokery will say otherwise but you are the gender you were born to. FACT."

I want to have babies.

You can't have babies stan, you don't have a womb. Where's the baby going to gestate?

Don't you oppress me,!

...its a very complex issue for some, and perhaps being made more complex by the delusion. sadly a mates daughter took her own life because of her demons and challenges with this...seeing no way out at the age of 14.im not sure any amount of legislation would have helped her.

I tend to think each case is unique and should be helped according to their uniqueness. But also a square is a square and a circle is a circle even if some people want to call it a carrot.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *atnip make me purrWoman
over a year ago

Reading

I'm another woman who welcomes transwomen into any toilet and changing rooms. I don't feel at all threatened.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"People can of course call themselves what ever they want but it is a pretence to say you can change gender.

We all know gender is rigid and any other view is just pandering to people and should stop.

Wokery will say otherwise but you are the gender you were born to. FACT.

I want to have babies.

You can't have babies stan, you don't have a womb. Where's the baby going to gestate?

Don't you oppress me,!

...its a very complex issue for some, and perhaps being made more complex by the delusion. sadly a mates daughter took her own life because of her demons and challenges with this...seeing no way out at the age of 14.im not sure any amount of legislation would have helped her.

I tend to think each case is unique and should be helped according to their uniqueness. But also a square is a square and a circle is a circle even if some people want to call it a carrot. "

My aunty K never had children despite an entire "childbearing age" of trying. Is she my uncle?

(I'm so sorry aunty K )

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

My belief is if someone believes and feels they identify to a particular gender then I respect that. You go down the rabbit hole of what is really female or male. Someone who has not had surgery but has identifies as female should be. Respected for that.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 26/05/21 08:24:12]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"People can of course call themselves what ever they want but it is a pretence to say you can change gender.

We all know gender is rigid and any other view is just pandering to people and should stop.

Wokery will say otherwise but you are the gender you were born to. FACT."

Writing ‘FACT’ after a statement just makes people laugh and not take you seriously, thus diminishing what you say, be it a fact or an opinion.

For the record; people don’t change their gender. Nor do they ‘choose’ it, as was suggested by the op.

Your gender comes from within. Your physical sex may not align with it.

Conversion therapy is cruel and does not work. You can’t change your gender.

You can, however, change your body to match it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Before you refer back to high school biology lessons, remember science is always moving forward, learning more and often revising earlier assumptions and conclusions.

Before you get heated and make your flat Earth style arguments bring yourself up to date a bit.

Perhaps watch this;

https://youtu.be/kT0HJkr1jj4

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

In addition to what I just said. Someone who identifies as female but not had surgery will hate the fact they have a penis and would get rid of it if they could. They would want a partner to treat them like a female, not a female with extras. To argue whether someone is not truly female unless they’d have had surgery is like saying someone who is trans after the many difficult changes they have gone through they are not really a woman. The argument is academic.

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By *oubleA123Couple
over a year ago

berwick


"People can of course call themselves what ever they want but it is a pretence to say you can change gender.

We all know gender is rigid and any other view is just pandering to people and should stop.

Wokery will say otherwise but you are the gender you were born to. FACT.

Boring. Saying fact in capital letters doesn't make it so, just shows that you have no actual argument. Having done this whole discussion many times now, I really couldn't be arsed to go through it again. Go read some proper books about gender, look up some of the ancient threads on fab covering the topic, get to know some actual transpeople. Walk a mile in someone elses shoes before you just blithely insult their existence."

Your last sentence says it all! We may not understand but we can accept.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The gender clinic in Exeter admit to a five year waiting list to have a first appointment with them. With covid, that’s probably more like six or seven as they only saw two new people in the last year!

Nhs guidelines are that they should be seeing people within 18 weeks......

Once you have your first appointment it takes a year or two before you can get put forward for surgery and the surgeons have a year or two backlog.

So a trans woman can be facing another ten years with a penis when she desperately wants it gone.

Please don’t judge.

For the record; there is no hospital in the UK able to do downstairs surgery on trans men for the nhs at the moment. Spare a thought for those men who are desperate for help but aware of that fact.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Debating this gives people with very little knowledge the chance to rant about a subject they clearly don’t understand.

They spout their venom and then get on with their day.

Trans people live this every day of our lives.

This isn’t a debate for us. There is nothing to debate. We already know the facts.

While you debate our existence and make us justify ourselves, it has no effect on how you feel apart from enjoying having a rant.

Being trans is not easy. It’s not a choice. I wouldn’t wish this on anyone.

This is my life though. This is who I am.

I’ve faced the assholes who think they know more about me than I do.

I’ve been physically assaulted just for existing. Had to walk around with a black eye socket containing a bright red eyeball and a fat lip with a split in it.

How about you all debate things that actually affect YOU.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"Debating this gives people with very little knowledge the chance to rant about a subject they clearly don’t understand.

They spout their venom and then get on with their day.

Trans people live this every day of our lives.

This isn’t a debate for us. There is nothing to debate. We already know the facts.

While you debate our existence and make us justify ourselves, it has no effect on how you feel apart from enjoying having a rant.

Being trans is not easy. It’s not a choice. I wouldn’t wish this on anyone.

This is my life though. This is who I am.

I’ve faced the assholes who think they know more about me than I do.

I’ve been physically assaulted just for existing. Had to walk around with a black eye socket containing a bright red eyeball and a fat lip with a split in it.

How about you all debate things that actually affect YOU. "

I'm sorry.

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By *ntrepid ExplorersCouple
over a year ago

Birmingham


"Debating this gives people with very little knowledge the chance to rant about a subject they clearly don’t understand.

They spout their venom and then get on with their day.

Trans people live this every day of our lives.

This isn’t a debate for us. There is nothing to debate. We already know the facts.

While you debate our existence and make us justify ourselves, it has no effect on how you feel apart from enjoying having a rant.

Being trans is not easy. It’s not a choice. I wouldn’t wish this on anyone.

This is my life though. This is who I am.

I’ve faced the assholes who think they know more about me than I do.

I’ve been physically assaulted just for existing. Had to walk around with a black eye socket containing a bright red eyeball and a fat lip with a split in it.

How about you all debate things that actually affect YOU. "

This is certainly where I see things. I have my views and feelings, but know that they come from zero lived experience, and TBH, precious little else concrete knowledge. There are logical conundrums I can't necessarily square away totally, but whilst I have questions, I feel I could find my own answers to a better extent, rather than fudging them into opinions.

I have no horse in this race, outside of a general desire for human decency and valid social progress, so I try to watch and learn from a distance.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Generally yes - people should be able to gender self identify.

People shouldn't be expected to have surgery to be recognised as the gender that they feel is right for them.

Fuck, I'm sure even the most self assured trans woman will have some serious apprehension before getting their dick removed! It's not something that should be expected of someone as a price they have to pay to live their life as they see fit. Although I understand that many may want to go through this eventually.

That being said, there are issues to do with women's refuges, prisons, changing rooms etc (women's safe spaces). that need consideration.

BUT - just 'cos they need a bit more consideration, doesn't mean you have to infringe on the rights of trans women to do so. They just need to be dealt with sensitively and with care. These issues are pretty new and society in general hasn't sorted them out yet. We'll get there.

I don't actually know any trans women well enough to call them up and ask them how they feel about this, but I'm pretty sure most of them also don't want to make cis-gendered women uncomfortable in any of those settings mentioned above.

There's always the issue that Dave the local builder could suddenly say that he's self identifying as a women just to go and have a perv. But the evidence suggests that basically doesn't happen. I suppose it theoretically could happen and if it really is an issue there needs to be some sort of safe-guard against that.

I'm uncomfortable with the idea of trans people being made to undergo any sort of tests to "prove" they are really trans, 'cos you shouldn't have to prove who you are... but some level of bureaucracy here could allay a lot of peoples unfounded "fears" about trans people while also making it easier for trans people to be accepted as who they are.

I'd be really curious to hear the opinions of any trans people on the thread.

I've mainly referred to trans women in this thread 'cos the consent issue with regard to women's safe spaces normally runs that way.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Debating this gives people with very little knowledge the chance to rant about a subject they clearly don’t understand.

They spout their venom and then get on with their day.

Trans people live this every day of our lives.

This isn’t a debate for us. There is nothing to debate. We already know the facts.

While you debate our existence and make us justify ourselves, it has no effect on how you feel apart from enjoying having a rant.

Being trans is not easy. It’s not a choice. I wouldn’t wish this on anyone.

This is my life though. This is who I am.

I’ve faced the assholes who think they know more about me than I do.

I’ve been physically assaulted just for existing. Had to walk around with a black eye socket containing a bright red eyeball and a fat lip with a split in it.

How about you all debate things that actually affect YOU.

This is certainly where I see things. I have my views and feelings, but know that they come from zero lived experience, and TBH, precious little else concrete knowledge. There are logical conundrums I can't necessarily square away totally, but whilst I have questions, I feel I could find my own answers to a better extent, rather than fudging them into opinions.

I have no horse in this race, outside of a general desire for human decency and valid social progress, so I try to watch and learn from a distance."

Thank you.

The link I shared earlier is quite enlightening. As is this one; a talk by someone who is intersex.

https://youtu.be/kT0HJkr1jj4

I wish people who aren’t trans but feel they want to get involved would do a tiny bit of research before trampling all over other people’s lives.

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By *asmeenTV/TS
over a year ago

STOKE ON TRENT

Walk a mile in my heels

You couldn't

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Generally yes - people should be able to gender self identify.

People shouldn't be expected to have surgery to be recognised as the gender that they feel is right for them.

Fuck, I'm sure even the most self assured trans woman will have some serious apprehension before getting their dick removed! It's not something that should be expected of someone as a price they have to pay to live their life as they see fit. Although I understand that many may want to go through this eventually.

That being said, there are issues to do with women's refuges, prisons, changing rooms etc (women's safe spaces). that need consideration.

BUT - just 'cos they need a bit more consideration, doesn't mean you have to infringe on the rights of trans women to do so. They just need to be dealt with sensitively and with care. These issues are pretty new and society in general hasn't sorted them out yet. We'll get there.

I don't actually know any trans women well enough to call them up and ask them how they feel about this, but I'm pretty sure most of them also don't want to make cis-gendered women uncomfortable in any of those settings mentioned above.

There's always the issue that Dave the local builder could suddenly say that he's self identifying as a women just to go and have a perv. But the evidence suggests that basically doesn't happen. I suppose it theoretically could happen and if it really is an issue there needs to be some sort of safe-guard against that.

I'm uncomfortable with the idea of trans people being made to undergo any sort of tests to "prove" they are really trans, 'cos you shouldn't have to prove who you are... but some level of bureaucracy here could allay a lot of peoples unfounded "fears" about trans people while also making it easier for trans people to be accepted as who they are.

I'd be really curious to hear the opinions of any trans people on the thread.

I've mainly referred to trans women in this thread 'cos the consent issue with regard to women's safe spaces normally runs that way."

I’m putting a few opinions in to this, so I hope that helps.

For the record, we don’t have our ‘Dick removed’. We have our testicles removed and our ‘dick’ cut up and rearranged back to the way it was when we first started to develop in the womb.

We all have the same bodies in the early weeks of development but some of us have a Y chromosome that triggers our ovaries to descend and develop into testes. Out vulva to fuse into a scrotum (hence the seam under it) and our clitoris to grow longer.

Having had my genital cut up and rearranged I can confirm it isn’t something to be done lightly!

It is a mahoosive operation and there’s no way fab would let me post a pic of the swollen black mass I was left with afterwards. Pushing a dilator into that three times a day was an experience too!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Walk a mile in my heels

You couldn't

"

I totally agree.

I'm a cis-gendered straight white bloke. The issues that gay people have to go through for acceptance would crush me, let alone the struggle for acceptance that trans people have to deal with.

The level of depression and teen suicide in the trans community should be all the evidence you need to stop fucking discriminating against people.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *asmeenTV/TS
over a year ago

STOKE ON TRENT


"Walk a mile in my heels

You couldn't

I totally agree.

I'm a cis-gendered straight white bloke. The issues that gay people have to go through for acceptance would crush me, let alone the struggle for acceptance that trans people have to deal with.

The level of depression and teen suicide in the trans community should be all the evidence you need to stop fucking discriminating against people."

You make best with what you have xx

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *asmeenTV/TS
over a year ago

STOKE ON TRENT


"Generally yes - people should be able to gender self identify.

People shouldn't be expected to have surgery to be recognised as the gender that they feel is right for them.

Fuck, I'm sure even the most self assured trans woman will have some serious apprehension before getting their dick removed! It's not something that should be expected of someone as a price they have to pay to live their life as they see fit. Although I understand that many may want to go through this eventually.

That being said, there are issues to do with women's refuges, prisons, changing rooms etc (women's safe spaces). that need consideration.

BUT - just 'cos they need a bit more consideration, doesn't mean you have to infringe on the rights of trans women to do so. They just need to be dealt with sensitively and with care. These issues are pretty new and society in general hasn't sorted them out yet. We'll get there.

I don't actually know any trans women well enough to call them up and ask them how they feel about this, but I'm pretty sure most of them also don't want to make cis-gendered women uncomfortable in any of those settings mentioned above.

There's always the issue that Dave the local builder could suddenly say that he's self identifying as a women just to go and have a perv. But the evidence suggests that basically doesn't happen. I suppose it theoretically could happen and if it really is an issue there needs to be some sort of safe-guard against that.

I'm uncomfortable with the idea of trans people being made to undergo any sort of tests to "prove" they are really trans, 'cos you shouldn't have to prove who you are... but some level of bureaucracy here could allay a lot of peoples unfounded "fears" about trans people while also making it easier for trans people to be accepted as who they are.

I'd be really curious to hear the opinions of any trans people on the thread.

I've mainly referred to trans women in this thread 'cos the consent issue with regard to women's safe spaces normally runs that way.

I’m putting a few opinions in to this, so I hope that helps.

For the record, we don’t have our ‘Dick removed’. We have our testicles removed and our ‘dick’ cut up and rearranged back to the way it was when we first started to develop in the womb.

We all have the same bodies in the early weeks of development but some of us have a Y chromosome that triggers our ovaries to descend and develop into testes. Out vulva to fuse into a scrotum (hence the seam under it) and our clitoris to grow longer.

Having had my genital cut up and rearranged I can confirm it isn’t something to be done lightly!

It is a mahoosive operation and there’s no way fab would let me post a pic of the swollen black mass I was left with afterwards. Pushing a dilator into that three times a day was an experience too! "

Ouch xx

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Generally yes - people should be able to gender self identify.

People shouldn't be expected to have surgery to be recognised as the gender that they feel is right for them.

Fuck, I'm sure even the most self assured trans woman will have some serious apprehension before getting their dick removed! It's not something that should be expected of someone as a price they have to pay to live their life as they see fit. Although I understand that many may want to go through this eventually.

That being said, there are issues to do with women's refuges, prisons, changing rooms etc (women's safe spaces). that need consideration.

BUT - just 'cos they need a bit more consideration, doesn't mean you have to infringe on the rights of trans women to do so. They just need to be dealt with sensitively and with care. These issues are pretty new and society in general hasn't sorted them out yet. We'll get there.

I don't actually know any trans women well enough to call them up and ask them how they feel about this, but I'm pretty sure most of them also don't want to make cis-gendered women uncomfortable in any of those settings mentioned above.

There's always the issue that Dave the local builder could suddenly say that he's self identifying as a women just to go and have a perv. But the evidence suggests that basically doesn't happen. I suppose it theoretically could happen and if it really is an issue there needs to be some sort of safe-guard against that.

I'm uncomfortable with the idea of trans people being made to undergo any sort of tests to "prove" they are really trans, 'cos you shouldn't have to prove who you are... but some level of bureaucracy here could allay a lot of peoples unfounded "fears" about trans people while also making it easier for trans people to be accepted as who they are.

I'd be really curious to hear the opinions of any trans people on the thread.

I've mainly referred to trans women in this thread 'cos the consent issue with regard to women's safe spaces normally runs that way.

I’m putting a few opinions in to this, so I hope that helps.

For the record, we don’t have our ‘Dick removed’. We have our testicles removed and our ‘dick’ cut up and rearranged back to the way it was when we first started to develop in the womb.

We all have the same bodies in the early weeks of development but some of us have a Y chromosome that triggers our ovaries to descend and develop into testes. Out vulva to fuse into a scrotum (hence the seam under it) and our clitoris to grow longer.

Having had my genital cut up and rearranged I can confirm it isn’t something to be done lightly!

It is a mahoosive operation and there’s no way fab would let me post a pic of the swollen black mass I was left with afterwards. Pushing a dilator into that three times a day was an experience too! "

Sorry - didn't mean to piss you off at all. As I said, I don't have any trans people in my life I could just call up to ask about this stuff.

Most of my knowledge about this comes from following a trans sci-fi nerd on YouTube... 'cos I follow sci-fi nerds!

You look great by the way.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

As for the ‘toilet debate’

There is no law that says a 6’6” bearded rugby player can’t use the ladies loo. There never has been to my knowledge.

Trans people have been around since the dawn of time. You’ve been having a pee in the cubicle next to us all your lives but now people are suggesting we might be a danger to your daughter so you worry.

We just need the loo ffs!

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"As for the ‘toilet debate’

There is no law that says a 6’6” bearded rugby player can’t use the ladies loo. There never has been to my knowledge.

Trans people have been around since the dawn of time. You’ve been having a pee in the cubicle next to us all your lives but now people are suggesting we might be a danger to your daughter so you worry.

We just need the loo ffs!

"

For the record - I'm not worried.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *asmeenTV/TS
over a year ago

STOKE ON TRENT


"Generally yes - people should be able to gender self identify.

People shouldn't be expected to have surgery to be recognised as the gender that they feel is right for them.

Fuck, I'm sure even the most self assured trans woman will have some serious apprehension before getting their dick removed! It's not something that should be expected of someone as a price they have to pay to live their life as they see fit. Although I understand that many may want to go through this eventually.

That being said, there are issues to do with women's refuges, prisons, changing rooms etc (women's safe spaces). that need consideration.

BUT - just 'cos they need a bit more consideration, doesn't mean you have to infringe on the rights of trans women to do so. They just need to be dealt with sensitively and with care. These issues are pretty new and society in general hasn't sorted them out yet. We'll get there.

I don't actually know any trans women well enough to call them up and ask them how they feel about this, but I'm pretty sure most of them also don't want to make cis-gendered women uncomfortable in any of those settings mentioned above.

There's always the issue that Dave the local builder could suddenly say that he's self identifying as a women just to go and have a perv. But the evidence suggests that basically doesn't happen. I suppose it theoretically could happen and if it really is an issue there needs to be some sort of safe-guard against that.

I'm uncomfortable with the idea of trans people being made to undergo any sort of tests to "prove" they are really trans, 'cos you shouldn't have to prove who you are... but some level of bureaucracy here could allay a lot of peoples unfounded "fears" about trans people while also making it easier for trans people to be accepted as who they are.

I'd be really curious to hear the opinions of any trans people on the thread.

I've mainly referred to trans women in this thread 'cos the consent issue with regard to women's safe spaces normally runs that way.

I’m putting a few opinions in to this, so I hope that helps.

For the record, we don’t have our ‘Dick removed’. We have our testicles removed and our ‘dick’ cut up and rearranged back to the way it was when we first started to develop in the womb.

We all have the same bodies in the early weeks of development but some of us have a Y chromosome that triggers our ovaries to descend and develop into testes. Out vulva to fuse into a scrotum (hence the seam under it) and our clitoris to grow longer.

Having had my genital cut up and rearranged I can confirm it isn’t something to be done lightly!

It is a mahoosive operation and there’s no way fab would let me post a pic of the swollen black mass I was left with afterwards. Pushing a dilator into that three times a day was an experience too!

Sorry - didn't mean to piss you off at all. As I said, I don't have any trans people in my life I could just call up to ask about this stuff.

Most of my knowledge about this comes from following a trans sci-fi nerd on YouTube... 'cos I follow sci-fi nerds!

You look great by the way."

What would you like to know?

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"As for the ‘toilet debate’

There is no law that says a 6’6” bearded rugby player can’t use the ladies loo. There never has been to my knowledge.

Trans people have been around since the dawn of time. You’ve been having a pee in the cubicle next to us all your lives but now people are suggesting we might be a danger to your daughter so you worry.

We just need the loo ffs!

"

I've never had anyone rummage in my knickers to see if I'm eligible to use the loo.

It's not a thing, and I hope for everyone's sake it never becomes a thing.

And, well, cubicles. I don't care who's using the cubicle next to me, as long as they don't try to get into mine. Those who do, well. (ban toddlers. Seriously, that's the only problem I've ever had. No I'm not seriously suggesting banning toddlers)

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Generally yes - people should be able to gender self identify.

People shouldn't be expected to have surgery to be recognised as the gender that they feel is right for them.

Fuck, I'm sure even the most self assured trans woman will have some serious apprehension before getting their dick removed! It's not something that should be expected of someone as a price they have to pay to live their life as they see fit. Although I understand that many may want to go through this eventually.

That being said, there are issues to do with women's refuges, prisons, changing rooms etc (women's safe spaces). that need consideration.

BUT - just 'cos they need a bit more consideration, doesn't mean you have to infringe on the rights of trans women to do so. They just need to be dealt with sensitively and with care. These issues are pretty new and society in general hasn't sorted them out yet. We'll get there.

I don't actually know any trans women well enough to call them up and ask them how they feel about this, but I'm pretty sure most of them also don't want to make cis-gendered women uncomfortable in any of those settings mentioned above.

There's always the issue that Dave the local builder could suddenly say that he's self identifying as a women just to go and have a perv. But the evidence suggests that basically doesn't happen. I suppose it theoretically could happen and if it really is an issue there needs to be some sort of safe-guard against that.

I'm uncomfortable with the idea of trans people being made to undergo any sort of tests to "prove" they are really trans, 'cos you shouldn't have to prove who you are... but some level of bureaucracy here could allay a lot of peoples unfounded "fears" about trans people while also making it easier for trans people to be accepted as who they are.

I'd be really curious to hear the opinions of any trans people on the thread.

I've mainly referred to trans women in this thread 'cos the consent issue with regard to women's safe spaces normally runs that way.

I’m putting a few opinions in to this, so I hope that helps.

For the record, we don’t have our ‘Dick removed’. We have our testicles removed and our ‘dick’ cut up and rearranged back to the way it was when we first started to develop in the womb.

We all have the same bodies in the early weeks of development but some of us have a Y chromosome that triggers our ovaries to descend and develop into testes. Out vulva to fuse into a scrotum (hence the seam under it) and our clitoris to grow longer.

Having had my genital cut up and rearranged I can confirm it isn’t something to be done lightly!

It is a mahoosive operation and there’s no way fab would let me post a pic of the swollen black mass I was left with afterwards. Pushing a dilator into that three times a day was an experience too!

Sorry - didn't mean to piss you off at all. As I said, I don't have any trans people in my life I could just call up to ask about this stuff.

Most of my knowledge about this comes from following a trans sci-fi nerd on YouTube... 'cos I follow sci-fi nerds!

You look great by the way.

What would you like to know?"

I'm just interested in your opinion on what I had to say, that's all. Rachel has already set me straight on a few things. That's by far the longest post I've ever put on here and I hope, despite my ignorance on certain things, that it wasn't perceived as anti-trans.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"As for the ‘toilet debate’

There is no law that says a 6’6” bearded rugby player can’t use the ladies loo. There never has been to my knowledge.

Trans people have been around since the dawn of time. You’ve been having a pee in the cubicle next to us all your lives but now people are suggesting we might be a danger to your daughter so you worry.

We just need the loo ffs!

For the record - I'm not worried. "

Nor are the vast majority of people.

The media and the anti trans lobby are doing their best to make people worry though.

Trans people aren’t dangerous.

Men are guilty of more violent crimes than women and of ninety odd percent of the sexual assaults. You can’t ban men from using the loo just because of the few dangerous men.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *asmeenTV/TS
over a year ago

STOKE ON TRENT


"Generally yes - people should be able to gender self identify.

People shouldn't be expected to have surgery to be recognised as the gender that they feel is right for them.

Fuck, I'm sure even the most self assured trans woman will have some serious apprehension before getting their dick removed! It's not something that should be expected of someone as a price they have to pay to live their life as they see fit. Although I understand that many may want to go through this eventually.

That being said, there are issues to do with women's refuges, prisons, changing rooms etc (women's safe spaces). that need consideration.

BUT - just 'cos they need a bit more consideration, doesn't mean you have to infringe on the rights of trans women to do so. They just need to be dealt with sensitively and with care. These issues are pretty new and society in general hasn't sorted them out yet. We'll get there.

I don't actually know any trans women well enough to call them up and ask them how they feel about this, but I'm pretty sure most of them also don't want to make cis-gendered women uncomfortable in any of those settings mentioned above.

There's always the issue that Dave the local builder could suddenly say that he's self identifying as a women just to go and have a perv. But the evidence suggests that basically doesn't happen. I suppose it theoretically could happen and if it really is an issue there needs to be some sort of safe-guard against that.

I'm uncomfortable with the idea of trans people being made to undergo any sort of tests to "prove" they are really trans, 'cos you shouldn't have to prove who you are... but some level of bureaucracy here could allay a lot of peoples unfounded "fears" about trans people while also making it easier for trans people to be accepted as who they are.

I'd be really curious to hear the opinions of any trans people on the thread.

I've mainly referred to trans women in this thread 'cos the consent issue with regard to women's safe spaces normally runs that way.

I’m putting a few opinions in to this, so I hope that helps.

For the record, we don’t have our ‘Dick removed’. We have our testicles removed and our ‘dick’ cut up and rearranged back to the way it was when we first started to develop in the womb.

We all have the same bodies in the early weeks of development but some of us have a Y chromosome that triggers our ovaries to descend and develop into testes. Out vulva to fuse into a scrotum (hence the seam under it) and our clitoris to grow longer.

Having had my genital cut up and rearranged I can confirm it isn’t something to be done lightly!

It is a mahoosive operation and there’s no way fab would let me post a pic of the swollen black mass I was left with afterwards. Pushing a dilator into that three times a day was an experience too!

Sorry - didn't mean to piss you off at all. As I said, I don't have any trans people in my life I could just call up to ask about this stuff.

Most of my knowledge about this comes from following a trans sci-fi nerd on YouTube... 'cos I follow sci-fi nerds!

You look great by the way.

What would you like to know?

I'm just interested in your opinion on what I had to say, that's all. Rachel has already set me straight on a few things. That's by far the longest post I've ever put on here and I hope, despite my ignorance on certain things, that it wasn't perceived as anti-trans."

You seem like a gentleman x

Its not about sex it's about the mind

The soul

X

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *asmeenTV/TS
over a year ago

STOKE ON TRENT


"As for the ‘toilet debate’

There is no law that says a 6’6” bearded rugby player can’t use the ladies loo. There never has been to my knowledge.

Trans people have been around since the dawn of time. You’ve been having a pee in the cubicle next to us all your lives but now people are suggesting we might be a danger to your daughter so you worry.

We just need the loo ffs!

For the record - I'm not worried.

Nor are the vast majority of people.

The media and the anti trans lobby are doing their best to make people worry though.

Trans people aren’t dangerous.

Men are guilty of more violent crimes than women and of ninety odd percent of the sexual assaults. You can’t ban men from using the loo just because of the few dangerous men. "

Girl hes flirting with you

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"As for the ‘toilet debate’

There is no law that says a 6’6” bearded rugby player can’t use the ladies loo. There never has been to my knowledge.

Trans people have been around since the dawn of time. You’ve been having a pee in the cubicle next to us all your lives but now people are suggesting we might be a danger to your daughter so you worry.

We just need the loo ffs!

I've never had anyone rummage in my knickers to see if I'm eligible to use the loo.

It's not a thing, and I hope for everyone's sake it never becomes a thing.

And, well, cubicles. I don't care who's using the cubicle next to me, as long as they don't try to get into mine. Those who do, well. (ban toddlers. Seriously, that's the only problem I've ever had. No I'm not seriously suggesting banning toddlers)"

Pretty much every single physical or verbal assault involving a trans person in a toilet, the trans person is the victim not the assailant.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"As for the ‘toilet debate’

There is no law that says a 6’6” bearded rugby player can’t use the ladies loo. There never has been to my knowledge.

Trans people have been around since the dawn of time. You’ve been having a pee in the cubicle next to us all your lives but now people are suggesting we might be a danger to your daughter so you worry.

We just need the loo ffs!

For the record - I'm not worried.

Nor are the vast majority of people.

The media and the anti trans lobby are doing their best to make people worry though.

Trans people aren’t dangerous.

Men are guilty of more violent crimes than women and of ninety odd percent of the sexual assaults. You can’t ban men from using the loo just because of the few dangerous men.

Girl hes flirting with you "

No. He was merely complimenting me.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"As for the ‘toilet debate’

There is no law that says a 6’6” bearded rugby player can’t use the ladies loo. There never has been to my knowledge.

Trans people have been around since the dawn of time. You’ve been having a pee in the cubicle next to us all your lives but now people are suggesting we might be a danger to your daughter so you worry.

We just need the loo ffs!

I've never had anyone rummage in my knickers to see if I'm eligible to use the loo.

It's not a thing, and I hope for everyone's sake it never becomes a thing.

And, well, cubicles. I don't care who's using the cubicle next to me, as long as they don't try to get into mine. Those who do, well. (ban toddlers. Seriously, that's the only problem I've ever had. No I'm not seriously suggesting banning toddlers)

Pretty much every single physical or verbal assault involving a trans person in a toilet, the trans person is the victim not the assailant. "

I know, and I'm sorry.

But to the standard argument that I should be afraid who's in the cubicle next to me - I'm not. You know?

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *asmeenTV/TS
over a year ago

STOKE ON TRENT


"As for the ‘toilet debate’

There is no law that says a 6’6” bearded rugby player can’t use the ladies loo. There never has been to my knowledge.

Trans people have been around since the dawn of time. You’ve been having a pee in the cubicle next to us all your lives but now people are suggesting we might be a danger to your daughter so you worry.

We just need the loo ffs!

I've never had anyone rummage in my knickers to see if I'm eligible to use the loo.

It's not a thing, and I hope for everyone's sake it never becomes a thing.

And, well, cubicles. I don't care who's using the cubicle next to me, as long as they don't try to get into mine. Those who do, well. (ban toddlers. Seriously, that's the only problem I've ever had. No I'm not seriously suggesting banning toddlers)

Pretty much every single physical or verbal assault involving a trans person in a toilet, the trans person is the victim not the assailant.

I know, and I'm sorry.

But to the standard argument that I should be afraid who's in the cubicle next to me - I'm not. You know?"

You have nothing to be

Sorry about

You are a strong

Advocate for the

T community xx

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *adInLiverpoolMan
over a year ago

LIVERPOOL

No, if you’re biologically a man, but you say you “feel” like a women, you’re free to do so, but it doesn’t change the fact you’re male.

It really irritates me that people are literally denying science when it comes to this. Like, would you deny climate change? If not, then you can’t deny your gender. You could go on hormone replacement, have your genitals changed, but you’d still be biologically a male. Bone density alone, would prove this.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *asmeenTV/TS
over a year ago

STOKE ON TRENT


"No, if you’re biologically a man, but you say you “feel” like a women, you’re free to do so, but it doesn’t change the fact you’re male.

It really irritates me that people are literally denying science when it comes to this. Like, would you deny climate change? If not, then you can’t deny your gender. You could go on hormone replacement, have your genitals changed, but you’d still be biologically a male. Bone density alone, would prove this. "

Erm no wrong

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *asmeenTV/TS
over a year ago

STOKE ON TRENT


"No, if you’re biologically a man, but you say you “feel” like a women, you’re free to do so, but it doesn’t change the fact you’re male.

It really irritates me that people are literally denying science when it comes to this. Like, would you deny climate change? If not, then you can’t deny your gender. You could go on hormone replacement, have your genitals changed, but you’d still be biologically a male. Bone density alone, would prove this. "

I was born male but have always been

Female

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"As for the ‘toilet debate’

There is no law that says a 6’6” bearded rugby player can’t use the ladies loo. There never has been to my knowledge.

Trans people have been around since the dawn of time. You’ve been having a pee in the cubicle next to us all your lives but now people are suggesting we might be a danger to your daughter so you worry.

We just need the loo ffs!

For the record - I'm not worried.

Nor are the vast majority of people.

The media and the anti trans lobby are doing their best to make people worry though.

Trans people aren’t dangerous.

Men are guilty of more violent crimes than women and of ninety odd percent of the sexual assaults. You can’t ban men from using the loo just because of the few dangerous men.

Girl hes flirting with you

No. He was merely complimenting me. "

LOL, if I was flirting you'd know about it.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *asmeenTV/TS
over a year ago

STOKE ON TRENT


"As for the ‘toilet debate’

There is no law that says a 6’6” bearded rugby player can’t use the ladies loo. There never has been to my knowledge.

Trans people have been around since the dawn of time. You’ve been having a pee in the cubicle next to us all your lives but now people are suggesting we might be a danger to your daughter so you worry.

We just need the loo ffs!

For the record - I'm not worried.

Nor are the vast majority of people.

The media and the anti trans lobby are doing their best to make people worry though.

Trans people aren’t dangerous.

Men are guilty of more violent crimes than women and of ninety odd percent of the sexual assaults. You can’t ban men from using the loo just because of the few dangerous men.

Girl hes flirting with you

No. He was merely complimenting me.

LOL, if I was flirting you'd know about it.

"

Oh lucky her

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *adInLiverpoolMan
over a year ago

LIVERPOOL

This is fact, you’re denying science if you think it’s not fact.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"No, if you’re biologically a man, but you say you “feel” like a women, you’re free to do so, but it doesn’t change the fact you’re male.

It really irritates me that people are literally denying science when it comes to this. Like, would you deny climate change? If not, then you can’t deny your gender. You could go on hormone replacement, have your genitals changed, but you’d still be biologically a male. Bone density alone, would prove this. "

https://youtu.be/kT0HJkr1jj4

Watch this. Actually see some science.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *asmeenTV/TS
over a year ago

STOKE ON TRENT


"This is fact, you’re denying science if you think it’s not fact. "

Denying science

No its biology

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"This is fact, you’re denying science if you think it’s not fact. "

No.

You’re denying science.

I’ve done research as it’s a subject that matters to me.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *asmeenTV/TS
over a year ago

STOKE ON TRENT


"This is fact, you’re denying science if you think it’s not fact. "

How come everything about is female then?

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"This is fact, you’re denying science if you think it’s not fact. "

You declaring it fact and claiming science is on your side does not make it so.

And even if it were, why does it matter? I'll take helping marginalised people over genetic trivialities. Priorities.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 26/05/21 09:58:01]

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"This is fact, you’re denying science if you think it’s not fact. "

Why do trans people and our lives bother you so much you feel the need to post on the internet about it?

Do we affect you in any way?

Do we take away any of your rights or prevent you from doing anything you normally do?

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By *emorefridaCouple
over a year ago

La la land


"Do you agree that people should be free to choose their gender irrespective of whether they’ve had surgery? "

Yes

And this debate of safe spaces for females or changing rooms using the loo etc. It all a distraction in my opinion. In my workplace we have unisex toilets and I've never had any issues. Point is I should be able to use the loo without being sexualised by anyone. Same with getting changed in the gym etc etc. If females weren't sexualised so much for doing every day things then we could all blinking share this amenities without fear.

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By *adInLiverpoolMan
over a year ago

LIVERPOOL

With respect, you were born male and still are male.

You can’t deny biology, I’m sorry, but you can’t.

Males in all species are born with specific characteristics that make them male.

Testosterone and its derivatives, and their relationship to other hormones and lower amounts of oestrogen in human males, give them these characteristics that manifest physically and neurologically.

Again I’m sorry, but you’re wrong, you can say and live however you want, I would never take that away from you, but you are wrong on this one.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I didn't think anyone's identification required permission or approval.

It really does with a healthcare setting"
this and sports

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By *adInLiverpoolMan
over a year ago

LIVERPOOL

With respect, you were born male and still are male.

You can’t deny biology, I’m sorry, but you can’t.

Males in all species are born with specific characteristics that make them male.

Testosterone and its derivatives, and their relationship to other hormones and lower amounts of oestrogen in human males, give them these characteristics that manifest physically and neurologically.

Again I’m sorry, but you’re wrong, you can say and live however you want, I would never take that away from you, but you are wrong on this one.

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By *adInLiverpoolMan
over a year ago

LIVERPOOL

Explain then.

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By *den-Valley-coupleCouple
over a year ago

Cumbria


"Do you agree that people should be free to choose their gender irrespective of whether they’ve had surgery?

Curious to hear points of view of people from different parts of the gender scale. Personally I tend to think no, but I can’t say I’ve got a direct understanding of the issue. I have never experienced any gender uncertainty myself despite sexually being attracted to men. "

Think you're mixing Gender with you sex to different things.

You come out one you feel what you are..

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By *adInLiverpoolMan
over a year ago

LIVERPOOL

Transitioning to female was the example, I can say the same about transitioning to male also.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"With respect, you were born male and still are male.

You can’t deny biology, I’m sorry, but you can’t.

Males in all species are born with specific characteristics that make them male.

Testosterone and its derivatives, and their relationship to other hormones and lower amounts of oestrogen in human males, give them these characteristics that manifest physically and neurologically.

Again I’m sorry, but you’re wrong, you can say and live however you want, I would never take that away from you, but you are wrong on this one."

With respect, your view of gender and sex is outdated, simplistic, and inaccurate. Maybe you should look into it some more.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"With respect, you were born male and still are male.

You can’t deny biology, I’m sorry, but you can’t.

Males in all species are born with specific characteristics that make them male.

Testosterone and its derivatives, and their relationship to other hormones and lower amounts of oestrogen in human males, give them these characteristics that manifest physically and neurologically.

Again I’m sorry, but you’re wrong, you can say and live however you want, I would never take that away from you, but you are wrong on this one."

Why can’t I deny it ? Why must I be wrong and you’re right ?

I accept that they’re are things about me that I cannot change. I accept that I have XY chromosomes and that that traditionally applies to males. I accept that I lived as a male previously but I believe ( and this cannot bd scientifically proven) that being male or female comes down to more than just chromosomes.

I respect your right to disagree but I don’t respect being told that I must be wrong when gender is so subjective

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By *ljamMan
over a year ago

Edinburgh


"Explain then."

It's not the responsibility of strangers to drag anyone out of ignorance. If they encourage you to do so you should be grateful. Educate yourself.

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By *adInLiverpoolMan
over a year ago

LIVERPOOL

Biology is a discipline, a field of science, science is a method used to verify claims about the world we live in.

You can’t deny biology independently of science.

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By *xhibitionisticvoyeurMan
over a year ago

wrexham


"People can of course call themselves what ever they want but it is a pretence to say you can change gender.

We all know gender is rigid and any other view is just pandering to people and should stop.

Wokery will say otherwise but you are the gender you were born to. FACT."

It seems you are confusing sex and gender.

Sex is biological: generally accepted as being based on chromosome combinations. (but this is itself by no means black and white as there are more than two possibilities!)

Gender is cultural: women do x kind of job, men do x kind of job. Being x is masculine. Being x is feminine.

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By *emorefridaCouple
over a year ago

La la land


"With respect, you were born male and still are male.

You can’t deny biology, I’m sorry, but you can’t.

Males in all species are born with specific characteristics that make them male.

Testosterone and its derivatives, and their relationship to other hormones and lower amounts of oestrogen in human males, give them these characteristics that manifest physically and neurologically.

Again I’m sorry, but you’re wrong, you can say and live however you want, I would never take that away from you, but you are wrong on this one."

Right for a start there is very little scientists know for a fact how the brain actually works. Yeah we can see different areas light up with different stimulus. Can they explain how it happens no. So you should be a Nobel science prize winner if you know all these things are fact.

In general scientists deal with theories as we generally know we have to work within our technological limitations. I'll await for your publications in Nature or the Lancet on your discoveries.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"With respect, you were born male and still are male.

You can’t deny biology, I’m sorry, but you can’t.

Males in all species are born with specific characteristics that make them male.

Testosterone and its derivatives, and their relationship to other hormones and lower amounts of oestrogen in human males, give them these characteristics that manifest physically and neurologically.

Again I’m sorry, but you’re wrong, you can say and live however you want, I would never take that away from you, but you are wrong on this one. "

I would never be daft enough to think I know more about Spina bifida than someone who it affects unless I was a doctor.

People tend to research and become experts on the things that drastically affect their lives.

I know a lot more about this than you do. Stamping your foot and saying over and over that I’m wrong doesn’t cut it with anyone I’m afraid.

Watch the link I offered you and stop being a playground ‘expert’.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"People can of course call themselves what ever they want but it is a pretence to say you can change gender.

We all know gender is rigid and any other view is just pandering to people and should stop.

Wokery will say otherwise but you are the gender you were born to. FACT.

It seems you are confusing sex and gender.

Sex is biological: generally accepted as being based on chromosome combinations. (but this is itself by no means black and white as there are more than two possibilities!)

Gender is cultural: women do x kind of job, men do x kind of job. Being x is masculine. Being x is feminine. "

well said, gender and biological sex are two very different things

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town


"As for the ‘toilet debate’

There is no law that says a 6’6” bearded rugby player can’t use the ladies loo. There never has been to my knowledge.

Trans people have been around since the dawn of time. You’ve been having a pee in the cubicle next to us all your lives but now people are suggesting we might be a danger to your daughter so you worry.

We just need the loo ffs!

"

6ft 6 is fine... Its the beard that's not.

Seriously, whether through ignorance or misunderstanding.. Or whether people understand enough.. If my 5 year old daughter was in the loos and a 6ft 6 fella walked in behind her.... I'd be anxious. You can appreciate that surely?

I'm not sure the toilet debate is only area touched however, sport... A 6ft male who has trained for 20 years with male hormones, the very same hormones that are illegal for female athletes to improve performance and who is physically superior in size, muscle quality, bone density, weight, speed.... Is then pitched in with females is in some cases a massive and unsporting advantage and in some other cases can be a danger.

As for discrimination and bullying, I'm not sure the young child I knew who took her own life. We will never know and it certainly can't have helped her situation. But I believe she made her decision because of her internal demons and issues. A tragedy that she felt it was her only choice left to make.

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

w

People are quick to say yes to this but I don’t feel safe that any guy can say he’s a woman and go into women’s spaces. I have female friends, I have a mum and sister.

If you wanna say your a different gender then great, but that doesn’t automatically give you access to gendered places

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By *asmeenTV/TS
over a year ago

STOKE ON TRENT


"People are quick to say yes to this but I don’t feel safe that any guy can say he’s a woman and go into women’s spaces. I have female friends, I have a mum and sister.

If you wanna say your a different gender then great, but that doesn’t automatically give you access to gendered places "

We have .mothers and sisters also we are not in toilets to chat just to pee

Why does it bother you

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"People are quick to say yes to this but I don’t feel safe that any guy can say he’s a woman and go into women’s spaces. I have female friends, I have a mum and sister.

If you wanna say your a different gender then great, but that doesn’t automatically give you access to gendered places "

Trans women are welcome to pee in the cubicle next to me.

I'm someone's sister and daughter.

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By *adInLiverpoolMan
over a year ago

LIVERPOOL

I am educated, and that’s why I disagree with people who deny scientific fact. I look at the evidence, I don’t base anything on how I feel or the feelings of others.

And if you weren’t so ignorant yourself you’d understand that if someone makes a claim they should make an argument for it with the evidence they have. That, in spirit, is the scientific method. No ego or ideology, but finding what little truth there is out there, for the betterment of everyone, even if you end up being wrong.

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

w


"People are quick to say yes to this but I don’t feel safe that any guy can say he’s a woman and go into women’s spaces. I have female friends, I have a mum and sister.

If you wanna say your a different gender then great, but that doesn’t automatically give you access to gendered places

We have .mothers and sisters also we are not in toilets to chat just to pee

Why does it bother you "

If you can’t see why I don’t like the idea of any old perv saying he’s a woman so he can get in a woman toilet or refuge or whatever I dunno what to tell you

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By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)

In general terms I always find that the naysayers regarding gender, transition and identity always come back to high school biology as their definitive proof.

This is deeply problematic in the sense that firstly, their understanding regarding gender peaked at 14 and secondly, that they don’t grasp how simplified any level of learning is in high school teaching.

I would urge anyone who believes in the binary options of gender to do further reading and take a step beyond the simplified concept of sex and gender, which are two different things

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"I am educated, and that’s why I disagree with people who deny scientific fact. I look at the evidence, I don’t base anything on how I feel or the feelings of others.

And if you weren’t so ignorant yourself you’d understand that if someone makes a claim they should make an argument for it with the evidence they have. That, in spirit, is the scientific method. No ego or ideology, but finding what little truth there is out there, for the betterment of everyone, even if you end up being wrong. "

So... someone should say something more robust than "it's science, it's biology, it's fact, you can't argue with that"?

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By *asmeenTV/TS
over a year ago

STOKE ON TRENT


"I am educated, and that’s why I disagree with people who deny scientific fact. I look at the evidence, I don’t base anything on how I feel or the feelings of others.

And if you weren’t so ignorant yourself you’d understand that if someone makes a claim they should make an argument for it with the evidence they have. That, in spirit, is the scientific method. No ego or ideology, but finding what little truth there is out there, for the betterment of everyone, even if you end up being wrong. "
who you talking to

Reply and quote

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By *emorefridaCouple
over a year ago

La la land


"People are quick to say yes to this but I don’t feel safe that any guy can say he’s a woman and go into women’s spaces. I have female friends, I have a mum and sister.

If you wanna say your a different gender then great, but that doesn’t automatically give you access to gendered places

Trans women are welcome to pee in the cubicle next to me.

I'm someone's sister and daughter."

I already have unisex toilets in work. Never has bothered me, expect when the toilet seat is left up

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By *ljamMan
over a year ago

Edinburgh


"I am educated, and that’s why I disagree with people who deny scientific fact. I look at the evidence, I don’t base anything on how I feel or the feelings of others.

And if you weren’t so ignorant yourself you’d understand that if someone makes a claim they should make an argument for it with the evidence they have. That, in spirit, is the scientific method. No ego or ideology, but finding what little truth there is out there, for the betterment of everyone, even if you end up being wrong. "

Yawn. Here's some reading for you... it's even from a legitimate source with scientific in the title:

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"People are quick to say yes to this but I don’t feel safe that any guy can say he’s a woman and go into women’s spaces. I have female friends, I have a mum and sister.

If you wanna say your a different gender then great, but that doesn’t automatically give you access to gendered places

We have .mothers and sisters also we are not in toilets to chat just to pee

Why does it bother you

If you can’t see why I don’t like the idea of any old perv saying he’s a woman so he can get in a woman toilet or refuge or whatever I dunno what to tell you "

So we should stop most people from doing things because some people are criminals?

Most predators are men. Some of you are criminals. 5pm curfew for the lot of you. It's the way we keep society safe

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By *asmeenTV/TS
over a year ago

STOKE ON TRENT


"People are quick to say yes to this but I don’t feel safe that any guy can say he’s a woman and go into women’s spaces. I have female friends, I have a mum and sister.

If you wanna say your a different gender then great, but that doesn’t automatically give you access to gendered places

We have .mothers and sisters also we are not in toilets to chat just to pee

Why does it bother you

If you can’t see why I don’t like the idea of any old perv saying he’s a woman so he can get in a woman toilet or refuge or whatever I dunno what to tell you "

Any old perv

No its taken her years to be the woman she is your viewed are dated

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By *etcplCouple
over a year ago

Gapping Fanny

Do you think that all the things we now take for granted; emancipation, suffrage, equal pay, disability discrimination etc. would be considered “woke” if they were to be part of the current social and political climate?

People should be free to identify as they see fit without everyone clutching their pearls and proclaiming “what about the toilet situation!”.

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By *emorefridaCouple
over a year ago

La la land


"People are quick to say yes to this but I don’t feel safe that any guy can say he’s a woman and go into women’s spaces. I have female friends, I have a mum and sister.

If you wanna say your a different gender then great, but that doesn’t automatically give you access to gendered places

We have .mothers and sisters also we are not in toilets to chat just to pee

Why does it bother you

If you can’t see why I don’t like the idea of any old perv saying he’s a woman so he can get in a woman toilet or refuge or whatever I dunno what to tell you "

Then don't you think, it should be attitudes towards the sexualisation of women doing every day things that should be changed? Not if someone transgender has a wee out of my sight?

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

w


"People are quick to say yes to this but I don’t feel safe that any guy can say he’s a woman and go into women’s spaces. I have female friends, I have a mum and sister.

If you wanna say your a different gender then great, but that doesn’t automatically give you access to gendered places

We have .mothers and sisters also we are not in toilets to chat just to pee

Why does it bother you

If you can’t see why I don’t like the idea of any old perv saying he’s a woman so he can get in a woman toilet or refuge or whatever I dunno what to tell you

So we should stop most people from doing things because some people are criminals?

Most predators are men. Some of you are criminals. 5pm curfew for the lot of you. It's the way we keep society safe "

We should have a better criteria of what gives access to woman’s spaces other than “I feel like a woman”

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By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)


"People are quick to say yes to this but I don’t feel safe that any guy can say he’s a woman and go into women’s spaces. I have female friends, I have a mum and sister.

If you wanna say your a different gender then great, but that doesn’t automatically give you access to gendered places

We have .mothers and sisters also we are not in toilets to chat just to pee

Why does it bother you

If you can’t see why I don’t like the idea of any old perv saying he’s a woman so he can get in a woman toilet or refuge or whatever I dunno what to tell you "

So you would deny trans people access to assigned toilets on the off chance that a guy is willing to dress as a woman to gain access to a toilet?

That line of thinking would also bar service engineers and workmen from access to houses, as far more assaults happen that way

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

w


"People are quick to say yes to this but I don’t feel safe that any guy can say he’s a woman and go into women’s spaces. I have female friends, I have a mum and sister.

If you wanna say your a different gender then great, but that doesn’t automatically give you access to gendered places

We have .mothers and sisters also we are not in toilets to chat just to pee

Why does it bother you

If you can’t see why I don’t like the idea of any old perv saying he’s a woman so he can get in a woman toilet or refuge or whatever I dunno what to tell you

Then don't you think, it should be attitudes towards the sexualisation of women doing every day things that should be changed? Not if someone transgender has a wee out of my sight? "

Absolutely, but you try changing the attitudes of some of the creeps out there that will do it anyways.

It’s like saying “shouldn’t we change the attitude of criminals so they won’t be criminals”

99% of people aren’t the problem, but we still need to protect against the few that will abuse a rule

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By *emorefridaCouple
over a year ago

La la land

[Removed by poster at 26/05/21 10:28:30]

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

w


"People are quick to say yes to this but I don’t feel safe that any guy can say he’s a woman and go into women’s spaces. I have female friends, I have a mum and sister.

If you wanna say your a different gender then great, but that doesn’t automatically give you access to gendered places

We have .mothers and sisters also we are not in toilets to chat just to pee

Why does it bother you

If you can’t see why I don’t like the idea of any old perv saying he’s a woman so he can get in a woman toilet or refuge or whatever I dunno what to tell you

So you would deny trans people access to assigned toilets on the off chance that a guy is willing to dress as a woman to gain access to a toilet?

That line of thinking would also bar service engineers and workmen from access to houses, as far more assaults happen that way"

Not what I suggested

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town


"People are quick to say yes to this but I don’t feel safe that any guy can say he’s a woman and go into women’s spaces. I have female friends, I have a mum and sister.

If you wanna say your a different gender then great, but that doesn’t automatically give you access to gendered places

We have .mothers and sisters also we are not in toilets to chat just to pee

Why does it bother you "

Because not all men / trans going into women's loos are like you. Because we have crimes committed that way. On the happy path that is being put forward in here... Yes everyone is of good character and only using public loos for doing what they were designed to do. But there are other things that happen too. We talk at length in these for about managing risk. As a parent I want to minimise risk to my child. You can appreciate that surely?

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By *ljamMan
over a year ago

Edinburgh

It's telling that one of the core arguments of the naysayers rests on "it let's pervy men into women's toilets" sort of crap. Can't they see the issue in that situation isn't anything to do with sex or gender? It's like saying we should we ban all kids sports teams because some coaches are perverts. Stupidity.

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By *asmeenTV/TS
over a year ago

STOKE ON TRENT


"People are quick to say yes to this but I don’t feel safe that any guy can say he’s a woman and go into women’s spaces. I have female friends, I have a mum and sister.

If you wanna say your a different gender then great, but that doesn’t automatically give you access to gendered places

We have .mothers and sisters also we are not in toilets to chat just to pee

Why does it bother you

If you can’t see why I don’t like the idea of any old perv saying he’s a woman so he can get in a woman toilet or refuge or whatever I dunno what to tell you

Then don't you think, it should be attitudes towards the sexualisation of women doing every day things that should be changed? Not if someone transgender has a wee out of my sight?

Absolutely, but you try changing the attitudes of some of the creeps out there that will do it anyways.

It’s like saying “shouldn’t we change the attitude of criminals so they won’t be criminals”

99% of people aren’t the problem, but we still need to protect against the few that will abuse a rule"
creeps?

You have a very low opinion on trans women and what we are about

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"People are quick to say yes to this but I don’t feel safe that any guy can say he’s a woman and go into women’s spaces. I have female friends, I have a mum and sister.

If you wanna say your a different gender then great, but that doesn’t automatically give you access to gendered places

We have .mothers and sisters also we are not in toilets to chat just to pee

Why does it bother you

If you can’t see why I don’t like the idea of any old perv saying he’s a woman so he can get in a woman toilet or refuge or whatever I dunno what to tell you

So we should stop most people from doing things because some people are criminals?

Most predators are men. Some of you are criminals. 5pm curfew for the lot of you. It's the way we keep society safe

We should have a better criteria of what gives access to woman’s spaces other than “I feel like a woman” "

And in the meantime, if you want to follow the evidence and constrain people's natural behaviour on the basis of risk of harming others - let's lock men up, not stop trans women who need to pee.

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By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)


"Do you think that all the things we now take for granted; emancipation, suffrage, equal pay, disability discrimination etc. would be considered “woke” if they were to be part of the current social and political climate?

People should be free to identify as they see fit without everyone clutching their pearls and proclaiming “what about the toilet situation!”."

It really does make me

Toilets are cubicle areas anyway. All anyone is going to see is people hand washing!

Are we so repressed that we can’t stand to have people hear us pee?!

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By *asmeenTV/TS
over a year ago

STOKE ON TRENT


"People are quick to say yes to this but I don’t feel safe that any guy can say he’s a woman and go into women’s spaces. I have female friends, I have a mum and sister.

If you wanna say your a different gender then great, but that doesn’t automatically give you access to gendered places

We have .mothers and sisters also we are not in toilets to chat just to pee

Why does it bother you

Because not all men / trans going into women's loos are like you. Because we have crimes committed that way. On the happy path that is being put forward in here... Yes everyone is of good character and only using public loos for doing what they were designed to do. But there are other things that happen too. We talk at length in these for about managing risk. As a parent I want to minimise risk to my child. You can appreciate that surely? "

Like me?

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

w

It amazes me that people can’t grasp this point.

I don’t want females going out to pubs or bars or night clubs where any old pervy d*unk guy is allowed by law to say to the bouncer “nah I’m a woman mate” and has to be allowed entry into the toilets there.

You all hang on this idea that there aren’t fucking perverts out there. Because there is, and I guarantee you if you gave them a law that guaranteed they could walk into these places they would

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By *adInLiverpoolMan
over a year ago

LIVERPOOL

You sent me a link? I’ll happy read it, thanks!

Now, yes people who are affected by issues are usually well read on said issue, and that’s why me, someone with a trans cousin, is educated on the subject.

I didn’t stamp my foot and say you were wrong, I gave an educated answer in the most sensitive way I could. I gave my reasoning and all you have done is claim you know what you’re talking about with no argument to go with it, if anyone is stamping their foot like a child darling, it’s you.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"People are quick to say yes to this but I don’t feel safe that any guy can say he’s a woman and go into women’s spaces. I have female friends, I have a mum and sister.

If you wanna say your a different gender then great, but that doesn’t automatically give you access to gendered places

We have .mothers and sisters also we are not in toilets to chat just to pee

Why does it bother you

Because not all men / trans going into women's loos are like you. Because we have crimes committed that way. On the happy path that is being put forward in here... Yes everyone is of good character and only using public loos for doing what they were designed to do. But there are other things that happen too. We talk at length in these for about managing risk. As a parent I want to minimise risk to my child. You can appreciate that surely? "

What are the relative risks here?

What's the public good (people being able to pee in peace) versus known (not perceived) risk? (How many people posing as trans women do actually attack women and girls in toilets?)

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

w


"People are quick to say yes to this but I don’t feel safe that any guy can say he’s a woman and go into women’s spaces. I have female friends, I have a mum and sister.

If you wanna say your a different gender then great, but that doesn’t automatically give you access to gendered places

We have .mothers and sisters also we are not in toilets to chat just to pee

Why does it bother you

If you can’t see why I don’t like the idea of any old perv saying he’s a woman so he can get in a woman toilet or refuge or whatever I dunno what to tell you

Then don't you think, it should be attitudes towards the sexualisation of women doing every day things that should be changed? Not if someone transgender has a wee out of my sight?

Absolutely, but you try changing the attitudes of some of the creeps out there that will do it anyways.

It’s like saying “shouldn’t we change the attitude of criminals so they won’t be criminals”

99% of people aren’t the problem, but we still need to protect against the few that will abuse a rule creeps?

You have a very low opinion on trans women and what we are about "

Dudnt understand what I wrote so not worth a reply

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *tew008Man
over a year ago

edinburgh


"It's telling that one of the core arguments of the naysayers rests on "it let's pervy men into women's toilets" sort of crap. Can't they see the issue in that situation isn't anything to do with sex or gender? It's like saying we should we ban all kids sports teams because some coaches are perverts. Stupidity."

Amazing what a few facebook posts can create.

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By *asmeenTV/TS
over a year ago

STOKE ON TRENT


"People are quick to say yes to this but I don’t feel safe that any guy can say he’s a woman and go into women’s spaces. I have female friends, I have a mum and sister.

If you wanna say your a different gender then great, but that doesn’t automatically give you access to gendered places

We have .mothers and sisters also we are not in toilets to chat just to pee

Why does it bother you

Because not all men / trans going into women's loos are like you. Because we have crimes committed that way. On the happy path that is being put forward in here... Yes everyone is of good character and only using public loos for doing what they were designed to do. But there are other things that happen too. We talk at length in these for about managing risk. As a parent I want to minimise risk to my child. You can appreciate that surely? "

As an aunty I am protective of my lot yes but transwomen go to the toilet to pee

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"It amazes me that people can’t grasp this point.

I don’t want females going out to pubs or bars or night clubs where any old pervy d*unk guy is allowed by law to say to the bouncer “nah I’m a woman mate” and has to be allowed entry into the toilets there.

You all hang on this idea that there aren’t fucking perverts out there. Because there is, and I guarantee you if you gave them a law that guaranteed they could walk into these places they would "

Look to the facts. Under what circumstances are most women and girls attacked?

Hint: it's not by trans women.

Lock up men if you're so worried. Punish the many for the actions of the few.

The crime statistics support me. Locking up men would cause a drastic reduction in attacks on women.

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By *adInLiverpoolMan
over a year ago

LIVERPOOL


"Explain then.

It's not the responsibility of strangers to drag anyone out of ignorance. If they encourage you to do so you should be grateful. Educate yourself. "

I am educated, and that’s why I disagree with people who deny scientific fact. I look at the evidence, I don’t base anything on how I feel or the feelings of others.

And if you weren’t so ignorant yourself you’d understand that if someone makes a claim they should make an argument for it with the evidence they have. That, in spirit, is the scientific method. No ego or ideology, but finding what little truth there is out there, for the betterment of everyone, even if you end up being wrong.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)


"People are quick to say yes to this but I don’t feel safe that any guy can say he’s a woman and go into women’s spaces. I have female friends, I have a mum and sister.

If you wanna say your a different gender then great, but that doesn’t automatically give you access to gendered places

We have .mothers and sisters also we are not in toilets to chat just to pee

Why does it bother you

If you can’t see why I don’t like the idea of any old perv saying he’s a woman so he can get in a woman toilet or refuge or whatever I dunno what to tell you

So you would deny trans people access to assigned toilets on the off chance that a guy is willing to dress as a woman to gain access to a toilet?

That line of thinking would also bar service engineers and workmen from access to houses, as far more assaults happen that way

Not what I suggested "

No but you’re suggesting that a guy can access the women’s toilets. Your argument is full of assumptions and conjecture, not facts.

The reality of the situation is that men commit sexual assault, so to extend your thought process, we should ban men from anywhere

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I've only read the first few posts.

But here's my opinion.

I am the mother of a male child, he identifies as male. Lovely. He's totally acceptable in mainstream society.

I am also the mother of a non binary child. They identify as they/them. Some days they present as female (yes, they were born with female genitals). Other days they present masculine, bound boobs, beanie to hide the hair, clothing that is traditionally masculine. And other days, masculine clothing with boobs unbound. The presentation is endless (and beautiful to see). Then let's add they are also sexually fluid. The latest person they are dating presents they/them, wears beautiful make up and a beard, and loves a skirt. Stunning visually. Beautiful person.

I frankly don't give a shit how my child wants to present. I care that my child (I say child although in their 20s, because its gender neutral and the agreed term I use with my child) is free to express their gender however they want on any given day.

I would be incredibly annoyed if they were told not to use a public area that some people see as being a gendered area.

I find it incredibly offensive to read or hear people say there are 2 genders. That you are the gender you were born with.

Don't misunderstand me. There are days I slip up and gender my kid, but they only came out a few months ago so I'm still learning. I don't think I'll ever stop learning.

Everyone should be allowed the freedom to express themselves exactly as they want to. To go where they want to. Use facilities they want to. And no one has the right to say otherwise

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By *asmeenTV/TS
over a year ago

STOKE ON TRENT


"People are quick to say yes to this but I don’t feel safe that any guy can say he’s a woman and go into women’s spaces. I have female friends, I have a mum and sister.

If you wanna say your a different gender then great, but that doesn’t automatically give you access to gendered places

We have .mothers and sisters also we are not in toilets to chat just to pee

Why does it bother you

If you can’t see why I don’t like the idea of any old perv saying he’s a woman so he can get in a woman toilet or refuge or whatever I dunno what to tell you

Then don't you think, it should be attitudes towards the sexualisation of women doing every day things that should be changed? Not if someone transgender has a wee out of my sight?

Absolutely, but you try changing the attitudes of some of the creeps out there that will do it anyways.

It’s like saying “shouldn’t we change the attitude of criminals so they won’t be criminals”

99% of people aren’t the problem, but we still need to protect against the few that will abuse a rule creeps?

You have a very low opinion on trans women and what we are about

Dudnt understand what I wrote so not worth a reply "

Education is key

Especially for you

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

w

Is the only fair answer here to make all toilets unisex?

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Don't give a shit.

Whatever you want to be, be.

My only rule in life "don't be a dick"

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *asmeenTV/TS
over a year ago

STOKE ON TRENT

I don't use public toilets they smell

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)


"People are quick to say yes to this but I don’t feel safe that any guy can say he’s a woman and go into women’s spaces. I have female friends, I have a mum and sister.

If you wanna say your a different gender then great, but that doesn’t automatically give you access to gendered places

We have .mothers and sisters also we are not in toilets to chat just to pee

Why does it bother you

Because not all men / trans going into women's loos are like you. Because we have crimes committed that way. On the happy path that is being put forward in here... Yes everyone is of good character and only using public loos for doing what they were designed to do. But there are other things that happen too. We talk at length in these for about managing risk. As a parent I want to minimise risk to my child. You can appreciate that surely? "

What crimes? Can you show actual crimes that have been?

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"Explain then.

It's not the responsibility of strangers to drag anyone out of ignorance. If they encourage you to do so you should be grateful. Educate yourself.

I am educated, and that’s why I disagree with people who deny scientific fact. I look at the evidence, I don’t base anything on how I feel or the feelings of others.

And if you weren’t so ignorant yourself you’d understand that if someone makes a claim they should make an argument for it with the evidence they have. That, in spirit, is the scientific method. No ego or ideology, but finding what little truth there is out there, for the betterment of everyone, even if you end up being wrong."

Did I miss where you provided your evidence?

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *ljamMan
over a year ago

Edinburgh


"Explain then.

It's not the responsibility of strangers to drag anyone out of ignorance. If they encourage you to do so you should be grateful. Educate yourself.

I am educated, and that’s why I disagree with people who deny scientific fact. I look at the evidence, I don’t base anything on how I feel or the feelings of others.

And if you weren’t so ignorant yourself you’d understand that if someone makes a claim they should make an argument for it with the evidence they have. That, in spirit, is the scientific method. No ego or ideology, but finding what little truth there is out there, for the betterment of everyone, even if you end up being wrong."

I'd have more faith in your rational capabilities if you could at least demonstrate that you know the difference between gender and biological sex... and I mentioned an insightful article in another post which skewers the very limited understanding of even biological sex which you've evinced so far.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *adInLiverpoolMan
over a year ago

LIVERPOOL


"With respect, you were born male and still are male.

You can’t deny biology, I’m sorry, but you can’t.

Males in all species are born with specific characteristics that make them male.

Testosterone and its derivatives, and their relationship to other hormones and lower amounts of oestrogen in human males, give them these characteristics that manifest physically and neurologically.

Again I’m sorry, but you’re wrong, you can say and live however you want, I would never take that away from you, but you are wrong on this one.

I would never be daft enough to think I know more about Spina bifida than someone who it affects unless I was a doctor.

People tend to research and become experts on the things that drastically affect their lives.

I know a lot more about this than you do. Stamping your foot and saying over and over that I’m wrong doesn’t cut it with anyone I’m afraid.

Watch the link I offered you and stop being a playground ‘expert’. "

You sent me a link? I’ll happy read it, thanks!

Now, yes people who are affected by issues are usually well read on said issue, and that’s why me, someone with a trans cousin, is educated on the subject.

I didn’t stamp my foot and say you were wrong, I gave an educated answer in the most sensitive way I could. I gave my reasoning and all you have done is claim you know what you’re talking about with no argument to go with it, if anyone is stamping their foot like a child darling, it’s you.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"Is the only fair answer here to make all toilets unisex? "

I wouldn't complain.

But in the meantime let's let trans people pee in peace.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town


"It's telling that one of the core arguments of the naysayers rests on "it let's pervy men into women's toilets" sort of crap. Can't they see the issue in that situation isn't anything to do with sex or gender? It's like saying we should we ban all kids sports teams because some coaches are perverts. Stupidity."

Well when it comes to coaching sports to kids the analogy would be... Let's have a check for recruiting the right coaches, let's have a framework for ensuring the coaches are safe and stay safe to work with kids in sport. It's about managing risk. And doing what can be done to reduce the risk.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

w

The joys of being a guy that identifies as a guy and literally doesn’t need to deal with any of this on a personal level.

Feeling privileged

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *ora the explorerWoman
over a year ago

Paradise, Herts


"People are quick to say yes to this but I don’t feel safe that any guy can say he’s a woman and go into women’s spaces. I have female friends, I have a mum and sister.

If you wanna say your a different gender then great, but that doesn’t automatically give you access to gendered places

We have .mothers and sisters also we are not in toilets to chat just to pee

Why does it bother you

If you can’t see why I don’t like the idea of any old perv saying he’s a woman so he can get in a woman toilet or refuge or whatever I dunno what to tell you

Then don't you think, it should be attitudes towards the sexualisation of women doing every day things that should be changed? Not if someone transgender has a wee out of my sight?

Absolutely, but you try changing the attitudes of some of the creeps out there that will do it anyways.

It’s like saying “shouldn’t we change the attitude of criminals so they won’t be criminals”

99% of people aren’t the problem, but we still need to protect against the few that will abuse a rule creeps?

You have a very low opinion on trans women and what we are about "

To be fair Yasmeen that’s not what he said.

Personally, I don’t have a problem with the toilet issue as they’re cubicles anyway so I really don’t see it as the massive issue it’s being made out to be. As for children etc, I would have never let mine go in a public toilet alone anyway. Changing rooms I’m on the fence with. Cubicles fine. Would I want a man getting changed in a communal one in front of my daughters? No I don’t think I would.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

w


"It's telling that one of the core arguments of the naysayers rests on "it let's pervy men into women's toilets" sort of crap. Can't they see the issue in that situation isn't anything to do with sex or gender? It's like saying we should we ban all kids sports teams because some coaches are perverts. Stupidity.

Well when it comes to coaching sports to kids the analogy would be... Let's have a check for recruiting the right coaches, let's have a framework for ensuring the coaches are safe and stay safe to work with kids in sport. It's about managing risk. And doing what can be done to reduce the risk. "

This is the part they can’t understand will these silly analogies

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *asmeenTV/TS
over a year ago

STOKE ON TRENT


"The joys of being a guy that identifies as a guy and literally doesn’t need to deal with any of this on a personal level.

Feeling privileged "

That right there

Says it all.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"It's telling that one of the core arguments of the naysayers rests on "it let's pervy men into women's toilets" sort of crap. Can't they see the issue in that situation isn't anything to do with sex or gender? It's like saying we should we ban all kids sports teams because some coaches are perverts. Stupidity.

Well when it comes to coaching sports to kids the analogy would be... Let's have a check for recruiting the right coaches, let's have a framework for ensuring the coaches are safe and stay safe to work with kids in sport. It's about managing risk. And doing what can be done to reduce the risk. "

So... until they're old enough accompany the child. Hover at the door (ish, lol) when borderline. Use the parent and child facilities which increasingly exist.

Have you looked into the statistics of trans people attacking (not being attacked) others in these settings? It's not really a thing

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By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)


"I've only read the first few posts.

But here's my opinion.

I am the mother of a male child, he identifies as male. Lovely. He's totally acceptable in mainstream society.

I am also the mother of a non binary child. They identify as they/them. Some days they present as female (yes, they were born with female genitals). Other days they present masculine, bound boobs, beanie to hide the hair, clothing that is traditionally masculine. And other days, masculine clothing with boobs unbound. The presentation is endless (and beautiful to see). Then let's add they are also sexually fluid. The latest person they are dating presents they/them, wears beautiful make up and a beard, and loves a skirt. Stunning visually. Beautiful person.

I frankly don't give a shit how my child wants to present. I care that my child (I say child although in their 20s, because its gender neutral and the agreed term I use with my child) is free to express their gender however they want on any given day.

I would be incredibly annoyed if they were told not to use a public area that some people see as being a gendered area.

I find it incredibly offensive to read or hear people say there are 2 genders. That you are the gender you were born with.

Don't misunderstand me. There are days I slip up and gender my kid, but they only came out a few months ago so I'm still learning. I don't think I'll ever stop learning.

Everyone should be allowed the freedom to express themselves exactly as they want to. To go where they want to. Use facilities they want to. And no one has the right to say otherwise"

I love this. Congratulations on your relationship with your children and them thriving

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"The joys of being a guy that identifies as a guy and literally doesn’t need to deal with any of this on a personal level.

Feeling privileged "

Yes, you are privileged. That's part of the point.

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By *emorefridaCouple
over a year ago

La la land

Know this is a swingers site, but what the heck do people think go on in public toilets that's so interesting? I mean I've only gone to wee, chat to my mates who are in the cubicle next door. Ok ok I have once been sick in a pubs loo. Oh yeah and forgot the incident where the lock jammed and I got stuck in a nightclub.

Seriously though, in general I feel safer in a public loo full of people regardless of gender than being in one alone.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *asmeenTV/TS
over a year ago

STOKE ON TRENT


"People are quick to say yes to this but I don’t feel safe that any guy can say he’s a woman and go into women’s spaces. I have female friends, I have a mum and sister.

If you wanna say your a different gender then great, but that doesn’t automatically give you access to gendered places

We have .mothers and sisters also we are not in toilets to chat just to pee

Why does it bother you

If you can’t see why I don’t like the idea of any old perv saying he’s a woman so he can get in a woman toilet or refuge or whatever I dunno what to tell you

Then don't you think, it should be attitudes towards the sexualisation of women doing every day things that should be changed? Not if someone transgender has a wee out of my sight?

Absolutely, but you try changing the attitudes of some of the creeps out there that will do it anyways.

It’s like saying “shouldn’t we change the attitude of criminals so they won’t be criminals”

99% of people aren’t the problem, but we still need to protect against the few that will abuse a rule creeps?

You have a very low opinion on trans women and what we are about

To be fair Yasmeen that’s not what he said.

Personally, I don’t have a problem with the toilet issue as they’re cubicles anyway so I really don’t see it as the massive issue it’s being made out to be. As for children etc, I would have never let mine go in a public toilet alone anyway. Changing rooms I’m on the fence with. Cubicles fine. Would I want a man getting changed in a communal one in front of my daughters? No I don’t think I would. "

I know what he means

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *asmeenTV/TS
over a year ago

STOKE ON TRENT


"Know this is a swingers site, but what the heck do people think go on in public toilets that's so interesting? I mean I've only gone to wee, chat to my mates who are in the cubicle next door. Ok ok I have once been sick in a pubs loo. Oh yeah and forgot the incident where the lock jammed and I got stuck in a nightclub.

Seriously though, in general I feel safer in a public loo full of people regardless of gender than being in one alone. "

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town


"People are quick to say yes to this but I don’t feel safe that any guy can say he’s a woman and go into women’s spaces. I have female friends, I have a mum and sister.

If you wanna say your a different gender then great, but that doesn’t automatically give you access to gendered places

We have .mothers and sisters also we are not in toilets to chat just to pee

Why does it bother you

Because not all men / trans going into women's loos are like you. Because we have crimes committed that way. On the happy path that is being put forward in here... Yes everyone is of good character and only using public loos for doing what they were designed to do. But there are other things that happen too. We talk at length in these for about managing risk. As a parent I want to minimise risk to my child. You can appreciate that surely?

What are the relative risks here?

What's the public good (people being able to pee in peace) versus known (not perceived) risk? (How many people posing as trans women do actually attack women and girls in toilets?)"

Try your spoons nightclub when people are intoxicated alcohol, drugs, 3am... Yep the bouncers not allowed in to the loos to maintain safety but a bloke who says he's a woman is... If you want to deny that it happens there's not much point in trying to debate it.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)


"The joys of being a guy that identifies as a guy and literally doesn’t need to deal with any of this on a personal level.

Feeling privileged "

This is the key point here. You don’t need to, so you’re not engaging with the actual issue.

As you say; you’re privileged

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *ljamMan
over a year ago

Edinburgh


"It's telling that one of the core arguments of the naysayers rests on "it let's pervy men into women's toilets" sort of crap. Can't they see the issue in that situation isn't anything to do with sex or gender? It's like saying we should we ban all kids sports teams because some coaches are perverts. Stupidity.

Well when it comes to coaching sports to kids the analogy would be... Let's have a check for recruiting the right coaches, let's have a framework for ensuring the coaches are safe and stay safe to work with kids in sport. It's about managing risk. And doing what can be done to reduce the risk. "

And yet with all the managing of risk, awful things do still happen. That's beside the point though. Criminal behaviour is wrong. That's not an issue of biological sex or gender. Conflating these things makes for a very poor argument.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

w

It’s so crazy these ideas of “look at the statistics of trans” we aren’t talking about trans.

We’re talking a law that would give pervs and sex criminals a leg up.

It would mean a rapist could literally wait in a females toilet for the right moment to strike, and no one could do anything. He’s legally allowed to be there.

I’d be interested to see statistics on how many men attack women, then see the statistics after we give those men a free reign to any female space they want without question

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

w


"People are quick to say yes to this but I don’t feel safe that any guy can say he’s a woman and go into women’s spaces. I have female friends, I have a mum and sister.

If you wanna say your a different gender then great, but that doesn’t automatically give you access to gendered places

We have .mothers and sisters also we are not in toilets to chat just to pee

Why does it bother you

Because not all men / trans going into women's loos are like you. Because we have crimes committed that way. On the happy path that is being put forward in here... Yes everyone is of good character and only using public loos for doing what they were designed to do. But there are other things that happen too. We talk at length in these for about managing risk. As a parent I want to minimise risk to my child. You can appreciate that surely?

What are the relative risks here?

What's the public good (people being able to pee in peace) versus known (not perceived) risk? (How many people posing as trans women do actually attack women and girls in toilets?)

Try your spoons nightclub when people are intoxicated alcohol, drugs, 3am... Yep the bouncers not allowed in to the loos to maintain safety but a bloke who says he's a woman is... If you want to deny that it happens there's not much point in trying to debate it. "

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"Know this is a swingers site, but what the heck do people think go on in public toilets that's so interesting? I mean I've only gone to wee, chat to my mates who are in the cubicle next door. Ok ok I have once been sick in a pubs loo. Oh yeah and forgot the incident where the lock jammed and I got stuck in a nightclub.

Seriously though, in general I feel safer in a public loo full of people regardless of gender than being in one alone. "

Very occasionally I'll get "can you pass me some loo roll" and a hand appears. I wouldn't care if the hand belonged to Bruce, Belinda, Betty who was born Bob, or Bob who was born Betty. I share the loo roll.

Less occasionally I'll get a toddler under the door. I mind this more but kids happen.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"It’s so crazy these ideas of “look at the statistics of trans” we aren’t talking about trans.

We’re talking a law that would give pervs and sex criminals a leg up.

It would mean a rapist could literally wait in a females toilet for the right moment to strike, and no one could do anything. He’s legally allowed to be there.

I’d be interested to see statistics on how many men attack women, then see the statistics after we give those men a free reign to any female space they want without question "

So let's lock up men.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *partharmonyCouple
over a year ago

Ruislip

I'd like to be better educated on the subject. I've never had the opportunity to really go into this with somebody who has gone through this.

My initial thoughts are that biological sex is not the same thing as self-identified sex. Nobody can choose their gender at birth, but if people feel that they in their mind they are different to their biology, then they should be respected and supported.

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By *emorefridaCouple
over a year ago

La la land


"Know this is a swingers site, but what the heck do people think go on in public toilets that's so interesting? I mean I've only gone to wee, chat to my mates who are in the cubicle next door. Ok ok I have once been sick in a pubs loo. Oh yeah and forgot the incident where the lock jammed and I got stuck in a nightclub.

Seriously though, in general I feel safer in a public loo full of people regardless of gender than being in one alone.

Very occasionally I'll get "can you pass me some loo roll" and a hand appears. I wouldn't care if the hand belonged to Bruce, Belinda, Betty who was born Bob, or Bob who was born Betty. I share the loo roll.

Less occasionally I'll get a toddler under the door. I mind this more but kids happen."

Oh yeah I forgot about the lack of loo roll etiquette.

My kids have done that was mortified, hard to pee with two toddlers in a cubicle and have control of the little toe rags.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

w


"It’s so crazy these ideas of “look at the statistics of trans” we aren’t talking about trans.

We’re talking a law that would give pervs and sex criminals a leg up.

It would mean a rapist could literally wait in a females toilet for the right moment to strike, and no one could do anything. He’s legally allowed to be there.

I’d be interested to see statistics on how many men attack women, then see the statistics after we give those men a free reign to any female space they want without question

So let's lock up men."

How about we have better policing and CCTV to minimise the risk

Going all the way to the other extreme isn’t a discussion

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Just remember that the trans population makes up less than 1% of the population.

I go into the correct changing facility/ toilets that are for my gender.

There are transmen that use male toilets too, but nothing is mentioned about them.

The haters will always hate.

I just want to live my life without the fear of being discriminated against and verbally abused

I will be getting my Gender recognition Certificate as soon as I can.

I am already legally female btw !

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

w


"It’s so crazy these ideas of “look at the statistics of trans” we aren’t talking about trans.

We’re talking a law that would give pervs and sex criminals a leg up.

It would mean a rapist could literally wait in a females toilet for the right moment to strike, and no one could do anything. He’s legally allowed to be there.

I’d be interested to see statistics on how many men attack women, then see the statistics after we give those men a free reign to any female space they want without question

So let's lock up men."

Because your version of lock up all men

Is like me say

No Teabs should ever be able to use a public toilet again

When you know that’s not what anyone is say

Try to have an educated discussion, I know you are, so do better, because these extreme swings don’t do anything for changing my opinion. They’re just ridiculous

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *adInLiverpoolMan
over a year ago

LIVERPOOL


"Explain then.

It's not the responsibility of strangers to drag anyone out of ignorance. If they encourage you to do so you should be grateful. Educate yourself.

I am educated, and that’s why I disagree with people who deny scientific fact. I look at the evidence, I don’t base anything on how I feel or the feelings of others.

And if you weren’t so ignorant yourself you’d understand that if someone makes a claim they should make an argument for it with the evidence they have. That, in spirit, is the scientific method. No ego or ideology, but finding what little truth there is out there, for the betterment of everyone, even if you end up being wrong.

I'd have more faith in your rational capabilities if you could at least demonstrate that you know the difference between gender and biological sex... and I mentioned an insightful article in another post which skewers the very limited understanding of even biological sex which you've evinced so far. "

First of all, thanks for the link, always open to new evidence and ideas.

Gender is downstream from biological sex, “gender roles” come from the natural behaviours that the binary sexes act on based on their biology.

For example, men are stronger and bigger than women on average, along with more testosterone they are more likely to be violent or protect people with violence and physical strength. That is a culture norm, a “gender role” but that is informed by the males biology. Yes gender and sex are different semantically, but gender is heavily, if not entirely influenced by biology.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *asmeenTV/TS
over a year ago

STOKE ON TRENT


"It’s so crazy these ideas of “look at the statistics of trans” we aren’t talking about trans.

We’re talking a law that would give pervs and sex criminals a leg up.

It would mean a rapist could literally wait in a females toilet for the right moment to strike, and no one could do anything. He’s legally allowed to be there.

I’d be interested to see statistics on how many men attack women, then see the statistics after we give those men a free reign to any female space they want without question

So let's lock up men.

Because your version of lock up all men

Is like me say

No Teabs should ever be able to use a public toilet again

When you know that’s not what anyone is say

Try to have an educated discussion, I know you are, so do better, because these extreme swings don’t do anything for changing my opinion. They’re just ridiculous "

As ridiculous as your views

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)


"People are quick to say yes to this but I don’t feel safe that any guy can say he’s a woman and go into women’s spaces. I have female friends, I have a mum and sister.

If you wanna say your a different gender then great, but that doesn’t automatically give you access to gendered places

We have .mothers and sisters also we are not in toilets to chat just to pee

Why does it bother you

Because not all men / trans going into women's loos are like you. Because we have crimes committed that way. On the happy path that is being put forward in here... Yes everyone is of good character and only using public loos for doing what they were designed to do. But there are other things that happen too. We talk at length in these for about managing risk. As a parent I want to minimise risk to my child. You can appreciate that surely?

What are the relative risks here?

What's the public good (people being able to pee in peace) versus known (not perceived) risk? (How many people posing as trans women do actually attack women and girls in toilets?)

Try your spoons nightclub when people are intoxicated alcohol, drugs, 3am... Yep the bouncers not allowed in to the loos to maintain safety but a bloke who says he's a woman is... If you want to deny that it happens there's not much point in trying to debate it. "

You keep going on about these ‘crimes’ but what crimes?

It seems to me that you’re using the predatory behaviour of men as a stick to beat enbies and trans people with, which is both irrational and discriminatory.

No one is concerned by the sexuality of those using gendered spaces, lesbian or bisexual women are ok in women only toilets, gay men are ok in men only spaces but it’s those that are transitioning that is the issue?

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"People can of course call themselves what ever they want but it is a pretence to say you can change gender.

We all know gender is rigid and any other view is just pandering to people and should stop.

Wokery will say otherwise but you are the gender you were born to. FACT.

Writing ‘FACT’ after a statement just makes people laugh and not take you seriously, thus diminishing what you say, be it a fact or an opinion.

For the record; people don’t change their gender. Nor do they ‘choose’ it, as was suggested by the op.

Your gender comes from within. Your physical sex may not align with it.

Conversion therapy is cruel and does not work. You can’t change your gender.

You can, however, change your body to match it.

"

AMEN to this sister ! It’s not something, someone just decided cos today they woke up feeling they needed a change and have nothing else they can do...

its a process of self acceptance of how they are inside , so we, match it with the outside.

I mean, imagine also, on reverse if trans women with tits and the work, or even simply presenting females, so have bras and panties and all, started just taking over the male changing rooms, surely that’d be a bit awkward . (extremely awkward for myself btw..and borderline dangerous)

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *ora the explorerWoman
over a year ago

Paradise, Herts


"People are quick to say yes to this but I don’t feel safe that any guy can say he’s a woman and go into women’s spaces. I have female friends, I have a mum and sister.

If you wanna say your a different gender then great, but that doesn’t automatically give you access to gendered places

We have .mothers and sisters also we are not in toilets to chat just to pee

Why does it bother you

If you can’t see why I don’t like the idea of any old perv saying he’s a woman so he can get in a woman toilet or refuge or whatever I dunno what to tell you

Then don't you think, it should be attitudes towards the sexualisation of women doing every day things that should be changed? Not if someone transgender has a wee out of my sight?

Absolutely, but you try changing the attitudes of some of the creeps out there that will do it anyways.

It’s like saying “shouldn’t we change the attitude of criminals so they won’t be criminals”

99% of people aren’t the problem, but we still need to protect against the few that will abuse a rule creeps?

You have a very low opinion on trans women and what we are about

To be fair Yasmeen that’s not what he said.

Personally, I don’t have a problem with the toilet issue as they’re cubicles anyway so I really don’t see it as the massive issue it’s being made out to be. As for children etc, I would have never let mine go in a public toilet alone anyway. Changing rooms I’m on the fence with. Cubicles fine. Would I want a man getting changed in a communal one in front of my daughters? No I don’t think I would.

I know what he means "

Well no not really. You twisted his words which is unfair.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *asmeenTV/TS
over a year ago

STOKE ON TRENT


"People are quick to say yes to this but I don’t feel safe that any guy can say he’s a woman and go into women’s spaces. I have female friends, I have a mum and sister.

If you wanna say your a different gender then great, but that doesn’t automatically give you access to gendered places

We have .mothers and sisters also we are not in toilets to chat just to pee

Why does it bother you

Because not all men / trans going into women's loos are like you. Because we have crimes committed that way. On the happy path that is being put forward in here... Yes everyone is of good character and only using public loos for doing what they were designed to do. But there are other things that happen too. We talk at length in these for about managing risk. As a parent I want to minimise risk to my child. You can appreciate that surely?

What are the relative risks here?

What's the public good (people being able to pee in peace) versus known (not perceived) risk? (How many people posing as trans women do actually attack women and girls in toilets?)

Try your spoons nightclub when people are intoxicated alcohol, drugs, 3am... Yep the bouncers not allowed in to the loos to maintain safety but a bloke who says he's a woman is... If you want to deny that it happens there's not much point in trying to debate it. "

Crimes not committed by transwomen

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"It’s so crazy these ideas of “look at the statistics of trans” we aren’t talking about trans.

We’re talking a law that would give pervs and sex criminals a leg up.

It would mean a rapist could literally wait in a females toilet for the right moment to strike, and no one could do anything. He’s legally allowed to be there.

I’d be interested to see statistics on how many men attack women, then see the statistics after we give those men a free reign to any female space they want without question

So let's lock up men.

How about we have better policing and CCTV to minimise the risk

Going all the way to the other extreme isn’t a discussion "

It's just as extreme, and more evidence based.

Most attacks are perpetrated by men. Few if any are perpetrated by trans women (more likely to be attacked) or men pretending to be women.

If the problem is protecting the women folk and we aren't afraid of overreacting and denying people rights (a safe place to pee), then let's follow the evidence and target the real problem, which, as the evidence shows, is men.

It's just as ridiculous and just as awful as denying people a safe place to pee, but it's way more evidence based. Most attackers are men

And what would policing of toilets look like? Do I have to have my genitals inspected? That might be traumatising.

Isn't CCTV in toilets a bit invasive?

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

w


"People are quick to say yes to this but I don’t feel safe that any guy can say he’s a woman and go into women’s spaces. I have female friends, I have a mum and sister.

If you wanna say your a different gender then great, but that doesn’t automatically give you access to gendered places

We have .mothers and sisters also we are not in toilets to chat just to pee

Why does it bother you

If you can’t see why I don’t like the idea of any old perv saying he’s a woman so he can get in a woman toilet or refuge or whatever I dunno what to tell you

Then don't you think, it should be attitudes towards the sexualisation of women doing every day things that should be changed? Not if someone transgender has a wee out of my sight?

Absolutely, but you try changing the attitudes of some of the creeps out there that will do it anyways.

It’s like saying “shouldn’t we change the attitude of criminals so they won’t be criminals”

99% of people aren’t the problem, but we still need to protect against the few that will abuse a rule creeps?

You have a very low opinion on trans women and what we are about

To be fair Yasmeen that’s not what he said.

Personally, I don’t have a problem with the toilet issue as they’re cubicles anyway so I really don’t see it as the massive issue it’s being made out to be. As for children etc, I would have never let mine go in a public toilet alone anyway. Changing rooms I’m on the fence with. Cubicles fine. Would I want a man getting changed in a communal one in front of my daughters? No I don’t think I would.

I know what he means

Well no not really. You twisted his words which is unfair. "

Thanks for sticking up for me, I’ve chose to ignore any comments from them because it’s no longer discussing if someone twists your words

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town


"It's telling that one of the core arguments of the naysayers rests on "it let's pervy men into women's toilets" sort of crap. Can't they see the issue in that situation isn't anything to do with sex or gender? It's like saying we should we ban all kids sports teams because some coaches are perverts. Stupidity.

Well when it comes to coaching sports to kids the analogy would be... Let's have a check for recruiting the right coaches, let's have a framework for ensuring the coaches are safe and stay safe to work with kids in sport. It's about managing risk. And doing what can be done to reduce the risk.

So... until they're old enough accompany the child. Hover at the door (ish, lol) when borderline. Use the parent and child facilities which increasingly exist.

Have you looked into the statistics of trans people attacking (not being attacked) others in these settings? It's not really a thing"

A couple of things.

1 as a man dressed as a man as a father. I'm not allowed into the ladies loos to accompany my daughter.

2 I don't think the issue is about genuine "trans" individuals. It's about distinguishing (rather like the fella above who glibly suggested we stop coaching kids sports rather than select and manage who we allow to coach them and parents making better choices who they leave their child with)... Now you can't deny that there are criminals who are opportunistic who hang around women's loos.. Well I can tell you in sleepy town where I live in the local park there are.... So it's not about filtering in the genuine people... Its about filtering out those that are not. As has been said... We need to find a better way to allow safe access than simply I feel like a woman.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *asmeenTV/TS
over a year ago

STOKE ON TRENT

Why can't live in harmony

Yes we need more CCTV

More support for each other

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

w


"It’s so crazy these ideas of “look at the statistics of trans” we aren’t talking about trans.

We’re talking a law that would give pervs and sex criminals a leg up.

It would mean a rapist could literally wait in a females toilet for the right moment to strike, and no one could do anything. He’s legally allowed to be there.

I’d be interested to see statistics on how many men attack women, then see the statistics after we give those men a free reign to any female space they want without question

So let's lock up men.

How about we have better policing and CCTV to minimise the risk

Going all the way to the other extreme isn’t a discussion

It's just as extreme, and more evidence based.

Most attacks are perpetrated by men. Few if any are perpetrated by trans women (more likely to be attacked) or men pretending to be women.

If the problem is protecting the women folk and we aren't afraid of overreacting and denying people rights (a safe place to pee), then let's follow the evidence and target the real problem, which, as the evidence shows, is men.

It's just as ridiculous and just as awful as denying people a safe place to pee, but it's way more evidence based. Most attackers are men

And what would policing of toilets look like? Do I have to have my genitals inspected? That might be traumatising.

Isn't CCTV in toilets a bit invasive? "

You’ve misunderstood my point.

If men are the problem, we police better and use CCTV

And if we have these issues with toilets, we have better criteria that allows us to make sure the laws aren’t being bent by pervy guys

If you wanna lock up men as an example. That’s like mr saying I don’t want any trans using any toilets. Which is clearly not what I’ve said.

Like I said, these extreme swings in views to prove a moderate point are just silly. Tea monkey posted something that’s genuinely got me thinking. Like really good stuff. You haven’t

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *ora the explorerWoman
over a year ago

Paradise, Herts


"People are quick to say yes to this but I don’t feel safe that any guy can say he’s a woman and go into women’s spaces. I have female friends, I have a mum and sister.

If you wanna say your a different gender then great, but that doesn’t automatically give you access to gendered places

We have .mothers and sisters also we are not in toilets to chat just to pee

Why does it bother you

If you can’t see why I don’t like the idea of any old perv saying he’s a woman so he can get in a woman toilet or refuge or whatever I dunno what to tell you

Then don't you think, it should be attitudes towards the sexualisation of women doing every day things that should be changed? Not if someone transgender has a wee out of my sight?

Absolutely, but you try changing the attitudes of some of the creeps out there that will do it anyways.

It’s like saying “shouldn’t we change the attitude of criminals so they won’t be criminals”

99% of people aren’t the problem, but we still need to protect against the few that will abuse a rule creeps?

You have a very low opinion on trans women and what we are about

To be fair Yasmeen that’s not what he said.

Personally, I don’t have a problem with the toilet issue as they’re cubicles anyway so I really don’t see it as the massive issue it’s being made out to be. As for children etc, I would have never let mine go in a public toilet alone anyway. Changing rooms I’m on the fence with. Cubicles fine. Would I want a man getting changed in a communal one in front of my daughters? No I don’t think I would.

I know what he means

Well no not really. You twisted his words which is unfair.

Thanks for sticking up for me, I’ve chose to ignore any comments from them because it’s no longer discussing if someone twists your words "

Not really a case of sticking up for. I would whoever it was. Yasmeen is a friend who I have a lot of respect for but that wasn’t fair.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *asmeenTV/TS
over a year ago

STOKE ON TRENT


"People are quick to say yes to this but I don’t feel safe that any guy can say he’s a woman and go into women’s spaces. I have female friends, I have a mum and sister.

If you wanna say your a different gender then great, but that doesn’t automatically give you access to gendered places

We have .mothers and sisters also we are not in toilets to chat just to pee

Why does it bother you

If you can’t see why I don’t like the idea of any old perv saying he’s a woman so he can get in a woman toilet or refuge or whatever I dunno what to tell you

Then don't you think, it should be attitudes towards the sexualisation of women doing every day things that should be changed? Not if someone transgender has a wee out of my sight?

Absolutely, but you try changing the attitudes of some of the creeps out there that will do it anyways.

It’s like saying “shouldn’t we change the attitude of criminals so they won’t be criminals”

99% of people aren’t the problem, but we still need to protect against the few that will abuse a rule creeps?

You have a very low opinion on trans women and what we are about

To be fair Yasmeen that’s not what he said.

Personally, I don’t have a problem with the toilet issue as they’re cubicles anyway so I really don’t see it as the massive issue it’s being made out to be. As for children etc, I would have never let mine go in a public toilet alone anyway. Changing rooms I’m on the fence with. Cubicles fine. Would I want a man getting changed in a communal one in front of my daughters? No I don’t think I would.

I know what he means

Well no not really. You twisted his words which is unfair. "

Twist his words I speak the truth

Iv nothing to twist

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *asmeenTV/TS
over a year ago

STOKE ON TRENT


"People are quick to say yes to this but I don’t feel safe that any guy can say he’s a woman and go into women’s spaces. I have female friends, I have a mum and sister.

If you wanna say your a different gender then great, but that doesn’t automatically give you access to gendered places

We have .mothers and sisters also we are not in toilets to chat just to pee

Why does it bother you

If you can’t see why I don’t like the idea of any old perv saying he’s a woman so he can get in a woman toilet or refuge or whatever I dunno what to tell you

Then don't you think, it should be attitudes towards the sexualisation of women doing every day things that should be changed? Not if someone transgender has a wee out of my sight?

Absolutely, but you try changing the attitudes of some of the creeps out there that will do it anyways.

It’s like saying “shouldn’t we change the attitude of criminals so they won’t be criminals”

99% of people aren’t the problem, but we still need to protect against the few that will abuse a rule creeps?

You have a very low opinion on trans women and what we are about

To be fair Yasmeen that’s not what he said.

Personally, I don’t have a problem with the toilet issue as they’re cubicles anyway so I really don’t see it as the massive issue it’s being made out to be. As for children etc, I would have never let mine go in a public toilet alone anyway. Changing rooms I’m on the fence with. Cubicles fine. Would I want a man getting changed in a communal one in front of my daughters? No I don’t think I would.

I know what he means

Well no not really. You twisted his words which is unfair.

Thanks for sticking up for me, I’ve chose to ignore any comments from them because it’s no longer discussing if someone twists your words

Not really a case of sticking up for. I would whoever it was. Yasmeen is a friend who I have a lot of respect for but that wasn’t fair. "

Xx

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)


"It’s so crazy these ideas of “look at the statistics of trans” we aren’t talking about trans.

We’re talking a law that would give pervs and sex criminals a leg up.

It would mean a rapist could literally wait in a females toilet for the right moment to strike, and no one could do anything. He’s legally allowed to be there.

I’d be interested to see statistics on how many men attack women, then see the statistics after we give those men a free reign to any female space they want without question "

So you think that someone willing to commit r*pe will be dissuaded by not being allowed into a space?

The issue isn’t where they’re allowed, it’s the predatory nature of men

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"It's telling that one of the core arguments of the naysayers rests on "it let's pervy men into women's toilets" sort of crap. Can't they see the issue in that situation isn't anything to do with sex or gender? It's like saying we should we ban all kids sports teams because some coaches are perverts. Stupidity.

Well when it comes to coaching sports to kids the analogy would be... Let's have a check for recruiting the right coaches, let's have a framework for ensuring the coaches are safe and stay safe to work with kids in sport. It's about managing risk. And doing what can be done to reduce the risk.

So... until they're old enough accompany the child. Hover at the door (ish, lol) when borderline. Use the parent and child facilities which increasingly exist.

Have you looked into the statistics of trans people attacking (not being attacked) others in these settings? It's not really a thing

A couple of things.

1 as a man dressed as a man as a father. I'm not allowed into the ladies loos to accompany my daughter.

2 I don't think the issue is about genuine "trans" individuals. It's about distinguishing (rather like the fella above who glibly suggested we stop coaching kids sports rather than select and manage who we allow to coach them and parents making better choices who they leave their child with)... Now you can't deny that there are criminals who are opportunistic who hang around women's loos.. Well I can tell you in sleepy town where I live in the local park there are.... So it's not about filtering in the genuine people... Its about filtering out those that are not. As has been said... We need to find a better way to allow safe access than simply I feel like a woman. "

I've seen boys up to about 12 in the women's with what look like their mum. I can't say the opposite happens (and 12 is an outlier) but that's where I'm coming from with it.

I've never been checked on my correct gender when I've tried to use a loo. Have you? Why is this suddenly a thing, and why only for a tiny persecuted minority?

What safety checks do you normally take? How did you get through your own childhood? Why do we have to trample on trans people?

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Trying to summarise a bit without offending anyone.

It seems that most if not all people on this thread don't have a problem with "genuine" trans people. But are concerned with people pretending to be trans to make it easier to carry out sexual assaults.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I agree it gives pervy men a chance to go into ladies loos just because they have a frock on. Who can police it for the genuine trans etc

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *asmeenTV/TS
over a year ago

STOKE ON TRENT


"I agree it gives pervy men a chance to go into ladies loos just because they have a frock on. Who can police it for the genuine trans etc"
you

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"It’s so crazy these ideas of “look at the statistics of trans” we aren’t talking about trans.

We’re talking a law that would give pervs and sex criminals a leg up.

It would mean a rapist could literally wait in a females toilet for the right moment to strike, and no one could do anything. He’s legally allowed to be there.

I’d be interested to see statistics on how many men attack women, then see the statistics after we give those men a free reign to any female space they want without question "

I think if a rapist was going to r*pe someone they wouldn't care if they were legally allowed somewhere or not. Kinda doing something illegal in the first place...

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)


"It’s so crazy these ideas of “look at the statistics of trans” we aren’t talking about trans.

We’re talking a law that would give pervs and sex criminals a leg up.

It would mean a rapist could literally wait in a females toilet for the right moment to strike, and no one could do anything. He’s legally allowed to be there.

I’d be interested to see statistics on how many men attack women, then see the statistics after we give those men a free reign to any female space they want without question

So let's lock up men.

How about we have better policing and CCTV to minimise the risk

Going all the way to the other extreme isn’t a discussion

It's just as extreme, and more evidence based.

Most attacks are perpetrated by men. Few if any are perpetrated by trans women (more likely to be attacked) or men pretending to be women.

If the problem is protecting the women folk and we aren't afraid of overreacting and denying people rights (a safe place to pee), then let's follow the evidence and target the real problem, which, as the evidence shows, is men.

It's just as ridiculous and just as awful as denying people a safe place to pee, but it's way more evidence based. Most attackers are men

And what would policing of toilets look like? Do I have to have my genitals inspected? That might be traumatising.

Isn't CCTV in toilets a bit invasive?

You’ve misunderstood my point.

If men are the problem, we police better and use CCTV

And if we have these issues with toilets, we have better criteria that allows us to make sure the laws aren’t being bent by pervy guys

If you wanna lock up men as an example. That’s like mr saying I don’t want any trans using any toilets. Which is clearly not what I’ve said.

Like I said, these extreme swings in views to prove a moderate point are just silly. Tea monkey posted something that’s genuinely got me thinking. Like really good stuff. You haven’t "

I wasn't aware I was seeking or required your approval.

My point stands.

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By *ogueAngelMan
over a year ago

Near Bath / Bristol

This may be controversial, but my views are evolving and I always seek to understand more to be as fair and as open as possible.

Any human may feel a gender mis-identity at any point in their life and feel they are more of a gender that is know their cis-gender (the one they were born with). They should have the right to explore and alter their gender to suit one which would make them as comfortable as possible, and then identify as such.

This may mean some may be a trans female, a cis-male identifying as a female not wishing to undergo surgery and therefore still have some outwards appearances of a male. This is their call.

There is a salient and difficult fact however, in that whilst one may choose a gender to identify as, they would never have been exposed to some of the key aspects in life that a male or female may be exposed to. For example, mitochondrial DNA passed down through the female bloodline is not replicable, or perhaps menstruation, pregnancy, and a cultural and historical battle for equality which unfortunately is still ongoing today.

There's an bias in society that absolutely needs challenging around trans identity issues, but there also needs to be some acceptance of fact around limitations that we have to embrace as part of that journey. When we meet that middle ground, everyone can move forward in a greater, shared understanding.

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By *adInLiverpoolMan
over a year ago

LIVERPOOL


"With respect, you were born male and still are male.

You can’t deny biology, I’m sorry, but you can’t.

Males in all species are born with specific characteristics that make them male.

Testosterone and its derivatives, and their relationship to other hormones and lower amounts of oestrogen in human males, give them these characteristics that manifest physically and neurologically.

Again I’m sorry, but you’re wrong, you can say and live however you want, I would never take that away from you, but you are wrong on this one.

Right for a start there is very little scientists know for a fact how the brain actually works. Yeah we can see different areas light up with different stimulus. Can they explain how it happens no. So you should be a Nobel science prize winner if you know all these things are fact.

In general scientists deal with theories as we generally know we have to work within our technological limitations. I'll await for your publications in Nature or the Lancet on your discoveries. "

Oh I’m well aware of the mysteries the brain poses for science, but what you’re talking about there is something completely different, what I was talking about, how hormones affect the body and the brain in much more basic well understood mechanics when it comes to males and females, any endocrinologist worth his or her salt could explain this.

Yes scientists work in theory, but if (like I hope you do) understand the difference between a hypothesis and a theory, you’ll know that saying “it’s just a theory” is one of the most scientifically illiterate things someone can say.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Identity is quite clearly an agreement between the individual and society. Self-identifying as something is meaningless if it is not accepted by others, be it pro-nouns or adjectives. While I'd hope most peoples self-identification is respected and accommodated for most of the time self-identification cannot and should not be universally accepted.

Some quite obvious examples of where it should be ignored would include:

- A prisoner serving life trying to identify as the opposite gender to get access to them.

- Female-only sports scholarships - if we are going to have gendered sports and gendered scholarships these clearly need to be protected for women. It would be unfair for a male to self identify as a female purely to gain access to female scholarships.

-Obscure identities like two-spirit or otherkins claiming underrepresentation or discrimination. It's obviously bollocks and should just be flat out ignored like you'd ignore someone claiming to be the next messiah.

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