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"Finally I think the coin has started to drop with this. So what do we do with all of the expired batteries? Maximum 5% of a cell is currently recyclable. Plough them into landfill? " That's the biggest problem at the minute, old batteries and what to do with them when they are not good to use. | |||
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"Finally I think the coin has started to drop with this. So what do we do with all of the expired batteries? Maximum 5% of a cell is currently recyclable. Plough them into landfill? That's the biggest problem at the minute, old batteries and what to do with them when they are not good to use. " You'd think, one would think, that given the electric car seems to be being pitched as the saviour of the planet, so much so that combustion engines are shortly to be outlawed.... That if we knew of an extremely toxic by product of their use... They'd have thought of how they dispose safely of them. Or better still... Recycle them. The irony surely can't be lost. | |||
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"It's the "zero emissions" bit that winds me up We, hello? Manufacturing process? Mining for the minerals needed for the batteries? And even ignoring all that, the fact that there's nothing coming out of the exhaust at the point of use, because you've pushed the pollution back up.the chain to a coal fired power station 200 miles away, does not make them zero emissions The only true way of being as environmental as possible with regard Toma car is to keep the ones that already exist in service as long as possible. And the only thing that would render one useless is its being in an accident so bad that it cannot be straightened out again afterwards And breathe...." Finally! My thoughts entirely. But how the fuck had it been allowed to become a global "pandemic"? Its as if electric power is for free? Pollution free? Oil and gas get to power stations for free? The blight of the charging points that will be needed to power 30million of the fuckers is all manufactured, distributed, serviced and maintained for free.... Emperors new clothes always springs to mind. | |||
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"It's the "zero emissions" bit that winds me up We, hello? Manufacturing process? Mining for the minerals needed for the batteries? And even ignoring all that, the fact that there's nothing coming out of the exhaust at the point of use, because you've pushed the pollution back up.the chain to a coal fired power station 200 miles away, does not make them zero emissions The only true way of being as environmental as possible with regard Toma car is to keep the ones that already exist in service as long as possible. And the only thing that would render one useless is its being in an accident so bad that it cannot be straightened out again afterwards And breathe.... Finally! My thoughts entirely. But how the fuck had it been allowed to become a global "pandemic"? Its as if electric power is for free? Pollution free? Oil and gas get to power stations for free? The blight of the charging points that will be needed to power 30million of the fuckers is all manufactured, distributed, serviced and maintained for free.... Emperors new clothes always springs to mind. "  to both the above.
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"It's the "zero emissions" bit that winds me up We, hello? Manufacturing process? Mining for the minerals needed for the batteries? And even ignoring all that, the fact that there's nothing coming out of the exhaust at the point of use, because you've pushed the pollution back up.the chain to a coal fired power station 200 miles away, does not make them zero emissions The only true way of being as environmental as possible with regard Toma car is to keep the ones that already exist in service as long as possible. And the only thing that would render one useless is its being in an accident so bad that it cannot be straightened out again afterwards And breathe.... Finally! My thoughts entirely. But how the fuck had it been allowed to become a global "pandemic"? Its as if electric power is for free? Pollution free? Oil and gas get to power stations for free? The blight of the charging points that will be needed to power 30million of the fuckers is all manufactured, distributed, serviced and maintained for free.... Emperors new clothes always springs to mind. " Indeed. There is no way our national grid could cope with that demand. As I understand it we're almost at maximum capacity now. This banning petrol and diesel cars by 2030 seems more like political posturing to appease certain sections of society rather than anything actually thought out. So pretty much like everything else the government says (whichever side is in power) | |||
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"There is actually little need to recycle the batteries in the sense most people think of. When the batteries are past their best from the highly dynamic cycle & high maximum current draw that an electric car requires they still have many years of useful life in them for bulk energy storage in much less demanding environments. Most of the car manufacturers have tie-ins with other industries to repurpose the battery cells into things like portable generation (such as smaller wind turbines generators etc.) Ultimately when the battery cells do fail it is actually possible to extract & recycle the lithium from them with is the rarest & most demanding part of the cell construction to generate. I've worked in engineering for most of life, a fair chunk of that relevant to EVs" Isn't that just the happy path? Are you suggesting that 5 year old batteries from cars will be transported to giant energy storage facilities, plugged in and happy days? I defer to your engineering background and found this in the the bbc which seems at odds with what you have written but you are in a much better place to determine its accuracy? One thing that stands out is vw building a plant to reprocess a massive 3600 units a year.? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56574779 | |||
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"Hydrogen fuel cells may be the real future. We think battery EVs are a dead end and unless you do a huge mileage aren't greener overall than the latest ICE cars (particularly if people are sensible and choose a vehicle as transport not a penis extension). Take into account the total environmental impact of making, running and disposing of a vehicle and battery EVs are poor. Even if all the electricity used to run them was renewable they are marginal. Their only advantage is that they improve local air quality." So by 2030..we will have pissed away trillions of euros of money to tinker with the pollution from one of the lowest contributors, swapping on pollution device for another which had marginal of any overall benefit through its life cycle... Whilst ignoring the top most contributors to global pollution... Awesome. | |||
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"Hydrogen fuel cells may be the real future. We think battery EVs are a dead end and unless you do a huge mileage aren't greener overall than the latest ICE cars (particularly if people are sensible and choose a vehicle as transport not a penis extension). Take into account the total environmental impact of making, running and disposing of a vehicle and battery EVs are poor. Even if all the electricity used to run them was renewable they are marginal. Their only advantage is that they improve local air quality. So by 2030..we will have pissed away trillions of euros of money to tinker with the pollution from one of the lowest contributors, swapping on pollution device for another which had marginal of any overall benefit through its life cycle... Whilst ignoring the top most contributors to global pollution... Awesome. " Politics! *Slow hand clap* | |||
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"I see them as a stepping stone in a massive long path thats going on the right direction. Currently they are not that great, but I believe they can get much better. If they can help weaken the grip on the motor industry that fossil fuel currently has, it should help with the transition when other technologies become viable." I can't help thinking that the Middle East won't be too happy about this. After all, they won't want to go back to being piss poor | |||
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"I see them as a stepping stone in a massive long path thats going on the right direction. Currently they are not that great, but I believe they can get much better. If they can help weaken the grip on the motor industry that fossil fuel currently has, it should help with the transition when other technologies become viable. I can't help thinking that the Middle East won't be too happy about this. After all, they won't want to go back to being piss poor" At one point their oil supply would have dried up and then they'd be in the same boat. If you don't want to be left behind, you need to be able to adapt. But, at least there won't be a reason for America to keep invading them. | |||
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"Currently IMO electric cars are a terrible idea pushed by the government’s to get rid of us relying on Saudi oil which I can see the reason for. " We will become dependent on China instead. | |||
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"This nonsense was not thought through properly it's just a rush job to suit all the snow flakes who are shouting about global warming" People shouting about global warming are certainly not "snowflakes". It is a serious issue and should have been tackled decades ago. Electric cars are now becoming usable for a lot of people in terms of range etc. but they are expensive and fundamentally don't tackle the problem. Don't get us started about plug in hybrids, particularly the big 4x4 ones, which are the worst of all worlds. We suggested on anoher thread that aviation fuel should be taxed at the same rate as road fuel. We were shot down by people saying "why should I pay more for my holiday, I have earnt the money so I will spend it". That entitled attitude will destroy the future for our children and grand children. In reality, as air travel puts pollutants high in the atmosphere where they do the most damage the fuel should be taxed more than road fuel. The only way to tackle the problem is for people to consume less. So don't drive as far, don't buy so much tat, run your house a few degrees cooler, eat less meat etc. Save money and save the planet. | |||
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"Combustion engines aren't really the biggest pollution of the planet. Animal agriculture is! "  I think people will defend their meat consumption even more viciously than their petrol cars. | |||
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"Combustion engines aren't really the biggest pollution of the planet. Animal agriculture is! I think people will defend their meat consumption even more viciously than their petrol cars. "too flaming grilled steaks sorry got distracted  | |||
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"Electric cars are a waste of time and money just who wants to stop to have to recharge the batteries every couple of hundred miles and where do you charge them as there are not anywhere near enough charging points and what about People who have a car but live in a high flat where the hell are they supposed to charge it ffs This nonsense was not thought through properly it's just a rush job to suit all the snow flakes who are shouting about global warming" Umm how do people in flats refuel their car at the moment? The infrastructure is getting there, as is battery technology, but its no where near where it needs to be for mass transit using electricity, but it has no choice. Green and renewal energy sources will be needed if we want humanity to survive. Sadly most politicians are too easily swayed by money to make long lasting decisions. | |||
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"Electric cars are a waste of time and money just who wants to stop to have to recharge the batteries every couple of hundred miles and where do you charge them as there are not anywhere near enough charging points and what about People who have a car but live in a high flat where the hell are they supposed to charge it ffs This nonsense was not thought through properly it's just a rush job to suit all the snow flakes who are shouting about global warming" Most service stations have high speed charging points now. My supermarket and work also do. So these are options for those in flats. Also if you have a designated parking space you can have a charging point installed there. I'm sure by the time they're compulsory there will be more options. Most car parks will probably double as charging stations and there's talk of street side charging points. | |||
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"A lot of luddites ITT It's the future. Crack on. " Luddite... a person opposed to new technology or ways of working. Don't confuse thoughtful people who think there are errors in the half baked strategy for EV to benefit pollution and global warming with people who are opposed to new technology. | |||
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"Electric cars are a waste of time and money just who wants to stop to have to recharge the batteries every couple of hundred miles and where do you charge them as there are not anywhere near enough charging points and what about People who have a car but live in a high flat where the hell are they supposed to charge it ffs This nonsense was not thought through properly it's just a rush job to suit all the snow flakes who are shouting about global warming Most service stations have high speed charging points now. My supermarket and work also do. So these are options for those in flats. Also if you have a designated parking space you can have a charging point installed there. I'm sure by the time they're compulsory there will be more options. Most car parks will probably double as charging stations and there's talk of street side charging points. " Won't they all look lovely. The blight of having 4 wheelie bins per household... To which you can now add two vehicle charging points for those houses with parking or driveways. For those without parking. ..i guess they'll be walking. All of which would work perfectly and never be vandalised. | |||
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"Electric cars are a waste of time and money just who wants to stop to have to recharge the batteries every couple of hundred miles and where do you charge them as there are not anywhere near enough charging points and what about People who have a car but live in a high flat where the hell are they supposed to charge it ffs This nonsense was not thought through properly it's just a rush job to suit all the snow flakes who are shouting about global warming Most service stations have high speed charging points now. My supermarket and work also do. So these are options for those in flats. Also if you have a designated parking space you can have a charging point installed there. I'm sure by the time they're compulsory there will be more options. Most car parks will probably double as charging stations and there's talk of street side charging points. Won't they all look lovely. The blight of having 4 wheelie bins per household... To which you can now add two vehicle charging points for those houses with parking or driveways. For those without parking. ..i guess they'll be walking. All of which would work perfectly and never be vandalised. " You’re making the mistake of just looking at current tech - there are loads of concepts being worked on re retractable charging points, charging pads, VW have shown robotic charging tech..... With electric cars, we are very much in the early stages LP vinyl record stage of tech. It will develop into iPods and phones level tech extremely quickly, | |||
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"Electric cars are a waste of time and money just who wants to stop to have to recharge the batteries every couple of hundred miles and where do you charge them as there are not anywhere near enough charging points and what about People who have a car but live in a high flat where the hell are they supposed to charge it ffs This nonsense was not thought through properly it's just a rush job to suit all the snow flakes who are shouting about global warming Most service stations have high speed charging points now. My supermarket and work also do. So these are options for those in flats. Also if you have a designated parking space you can have a charging point installed there. I'm sure by the time they're compulsory there will be more options. Most car parks will probably double as charging stations and there's talk of street side charging points. Won't they all look lovely. The blight of having 4 wheelie bins per household... To which you can now add two vehicle charging points for those houses with parking or driveways. For those without parking. ..i guess they'll be walking. All of which would work perfectly and never be vandalised. You’re making the mistake of just looking at current tech - there are loads of concepts being worked on re retractable charging points, charging pads, VW have shown robotic charging tech..... With electric cars, we are very much in the early stages LP vinyl record stage of tech. It will develop into iPods and phones level tech extremely quickly," Not a mistake. And I don't doubt that the tech will develop. But in my opinion a nation should not be building a transport strategy on tech that does not yet exist. At best it leaves you beholden to the companies developing the tech. At worst it is open to malpractice and impropriety.. It's good to hear both sides on here. I personally think we are not being told the whole story and that there is a reason when the benefits are being discussed it only talks about the short period of the life cycle... The pump to destination. I'd be interested to know how many are safely using retired fuel cells from cars as domestic energy storage. Leading edge / bleeding edge can be good. But trusting your nations transport to it is brave / risky. In my opinion. | |||
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"Combustion engines aren't really the biggest pollution of the planet. Animal agriculture is! I think people will defend their meat consumption even more viciously than their petrol cars. "And that's a problem. We are affraid of changes and not many people really want to do anything to save our planet and future of next generations. | |||
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"Hydrogen fuel cells are useless for personal transport Maybe ships or in some way integrated into commercial flights Pushed by the car manufacturers and oil companies due to the need to keep cars with engines in them and the need for servicing and spare parts that will cost a fortune." We don't quite understand which bit of a fuel cell powered car still "has an engine". The fuel cell converts hydrogen and oxygen to water and electricity, which then powers the car (probably with a small battery to boost power when needed). Very similar to a hybrid at the moment but with the petrol engine replaced by a fuel cell. Several prototypes are currently working. Infrastructure is poor, with only a few filling stations. Generating hydrogen by electrolysis is inefficient but can use surplus renewables. Currently most hydrogen is produced from natural gas, so this is not ideal. However, we still believe it is better than pure EV for the long term. At the moment the least worst option is small petrol engines in small sensible cars lighter in weight. People should also keep their cars for longer provided they are reasonably current in terms of emissions standards and efficiency - certainly all pre-Euro 5 diesels should be scrapped. Getting cars on PCP encourages the wasteful changing of vehicles every 3 years and should be banned. | |||
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"Electric cars are a waste of time and money just who wants to stop to have to recharge the batteries every couple of hundred miles and where do you charge them as there are not anywhere near enough charging points and what about People who have a car but live in a high flat where the hell are they supposed to charge it ffs This nonsense was not thought through properly it's just a rush job to suit all the snow flakes who are shouting about global warming Most service stations have high speed charging points now. My supermarket and work also do. So these are options for those in flats. Also if you have a designated parking space you can have a charging point installed there. I'm sure by the time they're compulsory there will be more options. Most car parks will probably double as charging stations and there's talk of street side charging points. Won't they all look lovely. The blight of having 4 wheelie bins per household... To which you can now add two vehicle charging points for those houses with parking or driveways. For those without parking. ..i guess they'll be walking. All of which would work perfectly and never be vandalised. " I'm sure it won't be long before they come out the ground like automatic bollards or something. I literally covered two options for those without parking or driveways - supermarkets and workplaces. Also my belief that parking anywhere will likely become an opportunity to charge your car in the future. Town centre car parks, retail parks, tourist attractions, maybe even the doctors. If we didn't do things because they occasionally broke or were vandalised, we wouldn't do or have anything! | |||
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"Enjoy your electric cars. I do not think it will apply in the US." Haha yeah can you imagine? Leave your guns on the gun rack when we tow it away and we can do a toofer.! | |||
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"Finally I think the coin has started to drop with this. So what do we do with all of the expired batteries? Maximum 5% of a cell is currently recyclable. Plough them into landfill? " After 10-15 years they go into powerwalls, then they get regurgitated... | |||
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"Enjoy your electric cars. I do not think it will apply in the US. Haha yeah can you imagine? Leave your guns on the gun rack when we tow it away and we can do a toofer.! " Yes that will go over well.  | |||
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"And just another quick thought even in America the petrol and diesel will end it's not just a European thing it will be global like it or not. Not saying it will be 100% in my lifetime but it will happen" And wars will be fought over rare minerals just like fossil fuel. | |||
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"Hydrogen fuel cells may be the real future. We think battery EVs are a dead end and unless you do a huge mileage aren't greener overall than the latest ICE cars (particularly if people are sensible and choose a vehicle as transport not a penis extension). Take into account the total environmental impact of making, running and disposing of a vehicle and battery EVs are poor. Even if all the electricity used to run them was renewable they are marginal. Their only advantage is that they improve local air quality." Maybe or maybe something else, there is a lot happening in this space right now not just for cars but rural , just keep your eye on share prices of certain companies. But whatever happens the cars in 5 -10 years or so will be very different and probably a lot more subscription that purchase | |||
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"Electric cars are a waste of time and money just who wants to stop to have to recharge the batteries every couple of hundred miles and where do you charge them as there are not anywhere near enough charging points and what about People who have a car but live in a high flat where the hell are they supposed to charge it ffs This nonsense was not thought through properly it's just a rush job to suit all the snow flakes who are shouting about global warming" You could have said exactly the same with fossil fuel cars at one point. There hasn't always been as many petrol stations and cars didn't used to be as fuel efficient. Even now, access to electricity is much easier to get than access to fuel. It's just that the infrastructure isn't their 'yet'. As for who wants to stop and charge them every 100 miles. I doubt anyone, but the current worst polluting use of fuel is by city cars work all the stopping and starting. Many of these users don't travel 100s of miles at a time. Where I live, we have free charging points in the town center and at many work places, so if I were to get one it would be really cheap and easy for me to keep the car topped up. Yes, it's not perfect for everyone yet, but it will get better. | |||
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"Finally I think the coin has started to drop with this. So what do we do with all of the expired batteries? Maximum 5% of a cell is currently recyclable. Plough them into landfill? " This isn't actually true. Almost the entire battery can be recycled. Only around 5% of waste lithium Ion batteries are currently being recycled. This will improve, especially considering the value of valuable resources tied up in the batteries. One big issue with recycling the batteries is that they can explode if not dismantled properly... and exploding is generally undesirable in the recycling industry. Cal | |||
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"Finally I think the coin has started to drop with this. So what do we do with all of the expired batteries? Maximum 5% of a cell is currently recyclable. Plough them into landfill? This isn't actually true. Almost the entire battery can be recycled. Only around 5% of waste lithium Ion batteries are currently being recycled. This will improve, especially considering the value of valuable resources tied up in the batteries. One big issue with recycling the batteries is that they can explode if not dismantled properly... and exploding is generally undesirable in the recycling industry. Cal" So... Today... For lithium ion batteries.. Only 5 % is being recycled... Which is true.? No? | |||
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"Bloody things are dangerous as you can't hear them coming. I've nearly been wiped out by a Preus? (Is that what they are called) on several occasions in London! Sneaky death traps!! " Maybe look? Anyway, I thought EVs had to have noise makers in them when they go over a certain speed, so that they can be heard 
Most of the pedestrians I see walking about (and alot of cyclists) seem to have headphones in anyway, so even if they made noise it would make no difference. | |||
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"Finally I think the coin has started to drop with this. So what do we do with all of the expired batteries? Maximum 5% of a cell is currently recyclable. Plough them into landfill? This isn't actually true. Almost the entire battery can be recycled. Only around 5% of waste lithium Ion batteries are currently being recycled. This will improve, especially considering the value of valuable resources tied up in the batteries. One big issue with recycling the batteries is that they can explode if not dismantled properly... and exploding is generally undesirable in the recycling industry. Cal So... Today... For lithium ion batteries.. Only 5 % is being recycled... Which is true.? No? " That is true, but the rest aren't just being scrapped. They are being stored as it's currently cheaper than dismantling them, but once that changes the owners are sorting on a gold (lithium) mine. | |||
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"It's the "zero emissions" bit that winds me up We, hello? Manufacturing process? Mining for the minerals needed for the batteries? And even ignoring all that, the fact that there's nothing coming out of the exhaust at the point of use, because you've pushed the pollution back up.the chain to a coal fired power station 200 miles away, does not make them zero emissions The only true way of being as environmental as possible with regard Toma car is to keep the ones that already exist in service as long as possible. And the only thing that would render one useless is its being in an accident so bad that it cannot be straightened out again afterwards And breathe...." Less than 5% of the uk's power now comes from coal. This remaining coal power production is set to be phased out by 2025. Manufacturing an electric car is also on par with oil driven cars, there is very little difference in the environment impact of that part. Obviously the "mining industry" IS an area of concern, and pressure needs to be applied to manufacturers to only use materials that have been mined in a responsible manner. Ultimately though, despite arguments to the contrary, electric cars ARE considerably more environmentally friendly than petrol or diesel ones. | |||
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"And just another quick thought even in America the petrol and diesel will end it's not just a European thing it will be global like it or not. Not saying it will be 100% in my lifetime but it will happen And wars will be fought over rare minerals just like fossil fuel." I don't doubt it for a moment x | |||
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"Bloody things are dangerous as you can't hear them coming. I've nearly been wiped out by a Preus? (Is that what they are called) on several occasions in London! Sneaky death traps!! " All electric cars have an artificial notice produced through a speaker to help pedestrians glues to their phones gear them coming upto I think 19 mph. Though big engines cars at the luxury end of things are as silent as a nuns fart at low and high speed and don't need to let you know at all so best look out for those too. | |||
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"Bloody things are dangerous as you can't hear them coming. I've nearly been wiped out by a Preus? (Is that what they are called) on several occasions in London! Sneaky death traps!! All electric cars have an artificial notice produced through a speaker to help pedestrians glues to their phones gear them coming upto I think 19 mph. Though big engines cars at the luxury end of things are as silent as a nuns fart at low and high speed and don't need to let you know at all so best look out for those too." The big quiet petrol / diesel cars normally have big wide tyres which make a lot of road noise and can hear them coming. I've never heard an electric car make any noise artificial or otherwise? PS I don't walk around staring at my phone or use earphones ! | |||
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"I wonder if "they" made public transport free in cities... (in the same way as free charging and charging points are being provided) that would have a better outcome regarding reducing pollution.? " Public transport in some cites is free Manchester for example have busses driving around dropping passengers off where they can on the route all for free Maybe speak to the suppliers in your area | |||
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"I drive a plug in hybrid and have absolutely no interest in the ‘green aspect’ or ever charging it. It saves me a chunk in company car tax and that’s that." Company car tax is only available on the reduced rate for pure electric cars as of April I believe So not saving much anymore | |||
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"Bloody things are dangerous as you can't hear them coming. I've nearly been wiped out by a Preus? (Is that what they are called) on several occasions in London! Sneaky death traps!! All electric cars have an artificial notice produced through a speaker to help pedestrians glues to their phones gear them coming upto I think 19 mph. Though big engines cars at the luxury end of things are as silent as a nuns fart at low and high speed and don't need to let you know at all so best look out for those too. The big quiet petrol / diesel cars normally have big wide tyres which make a lot of road noise and can hear them coming. I've never heard an electric car make any noise artificial or otherwise? PS I don't walk around staring at my phone or use earphones !" Someone sensible I see ?? I've worked with plenty that as soon as they step out of the works doors the headphones are in and face glued to the phone and they complain they nearly got wiped out by an inconsiderate driver lol | |||
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"It's the "zero emissions" bit that winds me up We, hello? Manufacturing process? Mining for the minerals needed for the batteries? And even ignoring all that, the fact that there's nothing coming out of the exhaust at the point of use, because you've pushed the pollution back up.the chain to a coal fired power station 200 miles away, does not make them zero emissions The only true way of being as environmental as possible with regard Toma car is to keep the ones that already exist in service as long as possible. And the only thing that would render one useless is its being in an accident so bad that it cannot be straightened out again afterwards And breathe...." Absolutely nailed it there and I do drive old cars until they become to expensive to put though the Mot current car Citron xsara y reg 200.000 k on the clock last Mot cost £190 for it’s year Mot 3 tyres and one fucked bush never let me down yet just jinx myself  | |||
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"Bloody things are dangerous as you can't hear them coming. I've nearly been wiped out by a Preus? (Is that what they are called) on several occasions in London! Sneaky death traps!! All electric cars have an artificial notice produced through a speaker to help pedestrians glues to their phones gear them coming upto I think 19 mph. Though big engines cars at the luxury end of things are as silent as a nuns fart at low and high speed and don't need to let you know at all so best look out for those too. The big quiet petrol / diesel cars normally have big wide tyres which make a lot of road noise and can hear them coming. I've never heard an electric car make any noise artificial or otherwise? PS I don't walk around staring at my phone or use earphones ! Someone sensible I see ?? I've worked with plenty that as soon as they step out of the works doors the headphones are in and face glued to the phone and they complain they nearly got wiped out by an inconsiderate driver lol" That's 90 percent of people in London! The population are turning into phone zombies !! | |||
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"Finally I think the coin has started to drop with this. So what do we do with all of the expired batteries? Maximum 5% of a cell is currently recyclable. Plough them into landfill? That's the biggest problem at the minute, old batteries and what to do with them when they are not good to use. " Not the only issue, lithium mining is awful, it’s really bad for the environment, last checked 41 million cars in U.K., how and where is the electricity coming from to charge these vehicles? Consider the fact gas and oil boilers are being phased out, that alone will cripple the national grid, yet in 9 yrs we are not allowed to manufacture cars running on diesel or petrol of any kind!!! We have to replace 41000000 cars with electric powered vehicles... | |||
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"Hydrogen fuel cells may be the real future. We think battery EVs are a dead end and unless you do a huge mileage aren't greener overall than the latest ICE cars (particularly if people are sensible and choose a vehicle as transport not a penis extension). Take into account the total environmental impact of making, running and disposing of a vehicle and battery EVs are poor. Even if all the electricity used to run them was renewable they are marginal. Their only advantage is that they improve local air quality." | |||
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"Finally I think the coin has started to drop with this. So what do we do with all of the expired batteries? Maximum 5% of a cell is currently recyclable. Plough them into landfill? That's the biggest problem at the minute, old batteries and what to do with them when they are not good to use. Not the only issue, lithium mining is awful, it’s really bad for the environment, last checked 41 million cars in U.K., how and where is the electricity coming from to charge these vehicles? Consider the fact gas and oil boilers are being phased out, that alone will cripple the national grid, yet in 9 yrs we are not allowed to manufacture cars running on diesel or petrol of any kind!!! We have to replace 41000000 cars with electric powered vehicles..." 41 million cars to replace and they won't be replaced altogether on one day when the ban on selling them comes in. New cars sold on the last date will last at least 20 years if their lucky, I suspect the following batch of cars will be sold as pre registered and the dealers being the first owners. Should sell much cheaper. So 2050 before those cars end up in the crusher and still plenty of cars being sold as secondhànd or classics The national grid is fine it can cope perfectly well Horror stories about blackouts and the nightmare we're all heading towards have been pushed around by journalists they have been totally debunked many times but still they get brought up as hard fact. | |||
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"Just pray you don't have a crash, get trapped in one and it goes up in flames. The burn like the fires of hell "Seen it once with Richard Hammond in a hypercar that at the time was the only one of its kind. Doesn't happen 9 times out of 10 just like it's rare for petrol to explode in an accident. Battery recycling is happening but end of life is a long way off I've a 5 yr old leaf parked outside and I expect the battery to still be going strong in 10 yrs time and after that if the car is no longer holding up I'll re purpose it to be a household storage unit and cut my electric bills in half (if not more) | |||
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"Tesla are one company and they do things there way Other companies do their own thing too We see plenty of Korean or Japanese cars on the roads here and sometimes getting parts for those is just as bad as Tesla Though simply because you might struggle getting parts for one car brand doesn't mean all electric cars are the same. " That's just it we have right to repair laws they constantly circumvent that. It's crazy. | |||
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"Combustion engines aren't really the biggest pollution of the planet. Animal agriculture is! I think people will defend their meat consumption even more viciously than their petrol cars. "There was a study recently, that if farm animals are feed sea , it will dramatically reduce the emissions the animals give off. Only downside is the meat will be more expensive, as currently the animals can graze in fields for free. Well sort of free. | |||
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"Combustion engines aren't really the biggest pollution of the planet. Animal agriculture is! I think people will defend their meat consumption even more viciously than their petrol cars.
There was a study recently, that if farm animals are feed sea , it will dramatically reduce the emissions the animals give off. Only downside is the meat will be more expensive, as currently the animals can graze in fields for free. Well sort of free."Deer are contribution to global warming. No one really hunts anymore the herds getting too big. | |||
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"Tesla are one company and they do things there way Other companies do their own thing too We see plenty of Korean or Japanese cars on the roads here and sometimes getting parts for those is just as bad as Tesla Though simply because you might struggle getting parts for one car brand doesn't mean all electric cars are the same. That's just it we have right to repair laws they constantly circumvent that. It's crazy." I'm guessing if you have laws then it's only a matter of time before they start having stocks of parts you can order to be able to repair anywhere you please. This is similar to things being talked about here where parts have to be made available to self repair not just cars but anything you purchase (like a toaster or kettle) I can understand why Tesla are holding back for the moment. They are effectively a new company (and now doing better all round than the "legacy" car makers) and being successful I'm sure most parts being made are going into current production demand As more and more companies start to produce electric cars demand for one brand will slacken off and more parts will become available Have you a Tesla you need parts for?? | |||
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"Tesla are one company and they do things there way Other companies do their own thing too We see plenty of Korean or Japanese cars on the roads here and sometimes getting parts for those is just as bad as Tesla Though simply because you might struggle getting parts for one car brand doesn't mean all electric cars are the same. That's just it we have right to repair laws they constantly circumvent that. It's crazy. I'm guessing if you have laws then it's only a matter of time before they start having stocks of parts you can order to be able to repair anywhere you please. This is similar to things being talked about here where parts have to be made available to self repair not just cars but anything you purchase (like a toaster or kettle) I can understand why Tesla are holding back for the moment. They are effectively a new company (and now doing better all round than the "legacy" car makers) and being successful I'm sure most parts being made are going into current production demand As more and more companies start to produce electric cars demand for one brand will slacken off and more parts will become available Have you a Tesla you need parts for??" Not now lol a friend of ours was going crazy over parts for his. | |||
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"Tesla V Dodge Challenger ? I'd buy the Dodge. Had a Tesla in front of me the other day it took up two lanes to do a left turn at a roundabout. What's that aroundabout?" Hellcat | |||
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"Tesla V Dodge Challenger ? I'd buy the Dodge. Had a Tesla in front of me the other day it took up two lanes to do a left turn at a roundabout. What's that aroundabout? Hellcat "Hell Yeh | |||
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"They don't work properly at below zero degrees. My 2006 Ford has started first time everytime, done 235000 miles. Let's see an electdick car do that. They look ugly, can't hear them coming. Boring as hell. Hot Rods rule. Waaaahooo, a la Gasmonkey. " I live at 2000 ft above sea level the weather in this area can be hellish even in the summer Recently we had mornings at -5/-8 when I was going to work and settled at around -2 by the time I get off the mountain and into work My electric car was defrosted before I came out my door the heater was running and it worked perfectly. And it's already done 87500 miles since new. Please go buy a Dodge and watch as the Tesla leaves you for dust. Too up two lanes to turn that's simple the driver was a dick. | |||
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"I'm not educated but these electric cars will be environment friendly but what happens when they all want charging over night national grid be on melt down " Why would everyone charge overnight at the same time??? Does everyone line up at a petrol station at the same time and day every week to buy fuel? No I can charge my car and it's done for the week. If I'm going longer distances I'll need to stop and charge depending on the trip but I also need to stop and piss so do it at the same time You also need to stop in your petrol car and if your driving for hors on end your an arse and just getting more and more tired and more dangerous as you fall asleep so you also need to stop. | |||
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"Not many on here seem to know much about electric vehicles or fossil fuel cars. A lot of crap being shovelled. I pity those who think they're doing the world a favour by sticking with fossil fuel cars. As more drive electric, and less buy petrol, so fuel prices will increase exponentially as fuel providers try to maintain their income. This will drive the value of fossil cars towards scrap value. This will include any brand new ones bought during the sell off of engine stocks that manufacturers still hold, as they transition to an electric only range of cars." I'm more than happy to help anyone learn more about electric cars and why we all will be changing. If anyone wants to know more or just ask a question then please do. I'll do my best to help you understand if I can. I have 2 electric cars here a leaf I use daily and an MG that's 2 weeks old | |||
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"This nonsense was not thought through properly it's just a rush job to suit all the snow flakes who are shouting about global warming People shouting about global warming are certainly not "snowflakes". It is a serious issue and should have been tackled decades ago. Electric cars are now becoming usable for a lot of people in terms of range etc. but they are expensive and fundamentally don't tackle the problem. Don't get us started about plug in hybrids, particularly the big 4x4 ones, which are the worst of all worlds. We suggested on anoher thread that aviation fuel should be taxed at the same rate as road fuel. We were shot down by people saying "why should I pay more for my holiday, I have earnt the money so I will spend it". That entitled attitude will destroy the future for our children and grand children. In reality, as air travel puts pollutants high in the atmosphere where they do the most damage the fuel should be taxed more than road fuel. The only way to tackle the problem is for people to consume less. So don't drive as far, don't buy so much tat, run your house a few degrees cooler, eat less meat etc. Save money and save the planet. " As I said snowflakes and it's even worse when it's young kids who haven't even been in the real world or worked a day in their life | |||
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"This nonsense was not thought through properly it's just a rush job to suit all the snow flakes who are shouting about global warming People shouting about global warming are certainly not "snowflakes". It is a serious issue and should have been tackled decades ago. Electric cars are now becoming usable for a lot of people in terms of range etc. but they are expensive and fundamentally don't tackle the problem. Don't get us started about plug in hybrids, particularly the big 4x4 ones, which are the worst of all worlds. We suggested on anoher thread that aviation fuel should be taxed at the same rate as road fuel. We were shot down by people saying "why should I pay more for my holiday, I have earnt the money so I will spend it". That entitled attitude will destroy the future for our children and grand children. In reality, as air travel puts pollutants high in the atmosphere where they do the most damage the fuel should be taxed more than road fuel. The only way to tackle the problem is for people to consume less. So don't drive as far, don't buy so much tat, run your house a few degrees cooler, eat less meat etc. Save money and save the planet. As I said snowflakes and it's even worse when it's young kids who haven't even been in the real world or worked a day in their life" Why are people who actually give a shit about stuff called snowflakes? | |||
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"This nonsense was not thought through properly it's just a rush job to suit all the snow flakes who are shouting about global warming People shouting about global warming are certainly not "snowflakes". It is a serious issue and should have been tackled decades ago. Electric cars are now becoming usable for a lot of people in terms of range etc. but they are expensive and fundamentally don't tackle the problem. Don't get us started about plug in hybrids, particularly the big 4x4 ones, which are the worst of all worlds. We suggested on anoher thread that aviation fuel should be taxed at the same rate as road fuel. We were shot down by people saying "why should I pay more for my holiday, I have earnt the money so I will spend it". That entitled attitude will destroy the future for our children and grand children. In reality, as air travel puts pollutants high in the atmosphere where they do the most damage the fuel should be taxed more than road fuel. The only way to tackle the problem is for people to consume less. So don't drive as far, don't buy so much tat, run your house a few degrees cooler, eat less meat etc. Save money and save the planet. " Agree with all this. Surely the solution is LESS cars rather than Ecars. Working from home, car/lift sharing, cycling and public transport should all be prioritised before Ecars. Sadly we have to adhere to public demand before rational, scientific evidence. Yes, people in inner cities will still want huge Electric 4x4s and will feel a smug sense of 'I'm doing my bit to help the environment!' when they charge its battery. (I will sigh in disappointment.) | |||
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"We live in a throwaway society where people are obsessed with material possessions. Personally I think car's and all of the components should be banned from built in obsolescence and made to last a minimum of ten years. With warranties matching this. Plastic cars that start falling apart after 3years are not the answer. " I'd be screwed then Cars were built to last this pre 1997 then along came emission regulation and technology advancements and comforts to make driving more enjoyable and comfortable rather than a chore. But without them can't go dogging  | |||
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"Tesla V Dodge Challenger ? I'd buy the Dodge. Had a Tesla in front of me the other day it took up two lanes to do a left turn at a roundabout. What's that aroundabout? Hellcat "Tesla all day long Plus it make its money back 10 fold on the street | |||
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"We live in a throwaway society where people are obsessed with material possessions. Personally I think car's and all of the components should be banned from built in obsolescence and made to last a minimum of ten years. With warranties matching this. Plastic cars that start falling apart after 3years are not the answer. " Now that would be a worthwhile policy and require no additional infrastructure. Add all of Apples phones in built obsolescence after 2 years... Think how much we could save the planet. | |||
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"EVs and plug in hybrids are currently one of the biggest selling products worldwide. Now working in the trade the biggest issue at the moment is lack of people that are qualified to work on them I freelance and run my business as my freelance I am always getting short term contracts for volvo, ford, vauxhall, peugeot, audi group, lexus/toyota. The amount of battery packs I change are unreal and some of these cars are less than 1 year old and the old battery is literally scraped. Most of the car and commercial hybrid and ev batteries have a 6 year life, at this pont they must be changed (tesla and polestar are 10 year) Demonstrated at audi, the a5 as top spec is 65k, the etron (dame car just electric) base model is 71k They give the running costs over a 5 year period amd they work out the same as they don't show the cost of charging the vehicle. The 6th year is when the battery needs to replaced and current cost is 19k (done one last week) The environmental issues are another massive thing the pollution emitted in mining, building shipping and everything else is a lot more than running petrol or diesel vehicles. Personally I see the ev market short lived liked LPG. Hydrogen fuel cells is the long term, toyota have just been approved for UK use for thiers " But in the thread we have folks claiming battery life of 10 to 15 years in vehicle followed by further years as a domestic free to use and charge power supply (no idea how that would work nor the safety issues involved). Car manufacturers wouldn't be lying about battery life would they? Like they do with mpg and emissions data? | |||
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"We live in a throwaway society where people are obsessed with material possessions. Personally I think car's and all of the components should be banned from built in obsolescence and made to last a minimum of ten years. With warranties matching this. Plastic cars that start falling apart after 3years are not the answer. " Yeah those all metal Cortinas and Alfa Suds never went wrong did they lol | |||
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"EVs and plug in hybrids are currently one of the biggest selling products worldwide. Now working in the trade the biggest issue at the moment is lack of people that are qualified to work on them I freelance and run my business as my freelance I am always getting short term contracts for volvo, ford, vauxhall, peugeot, audi group, lexus/toyota. The amount of battery packs I change are unreal and some of these cars are less than 1 year old and the old battery is literally scraped. Most of the car and commercial hybrid and ev batteries have a 6 year life, at this pont they must be changed (tesla and polestar are 10 year) Demonstrated at audi, the a5 as top spec is 65k, the etron (dame car just electric) base model is 71k They give the running costs over a 5 year period amd they work out the same as they don't show the cost of charging the vehicle. The 6th year is when the battery needs to replaced and current cost is 19k (done one last week) The environmental issues are another massive thing the pollution emitted in mining, building shipping and everything else is a lot more than running petrol or diesel vehicles. Personally I see the ev market short lived liked LPG. Hydrogen fuel cells is the long term, toyota have just been approved for UK use for thiers But in the thread we have folks claiming battery life of 10 to 15 years in vehicle followed by further years as a domestic free to use and charge power supply (no idea how that would work nor the safety issues involved). Car manufacturers wouldn't be lying about battery life would they? Like they do with mpg and emissions data? " Do a hybrid EV course or better still go to renault or nissan ask about a leaf or zoe new and watch them try and sell you the battery scheme for £199 a month to replace the battery at 5 years old | |||
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"They don't work properly at below zero degrees. My 2006 Ford has started first time everytime, done 235000 miles. Let's see an electdick car do that. They look ugly, can't hear them coming. Boring as hell. Hot Rods rule. Waaaahooo, a la Gasmonkey. " Boring? Have you seen the acceleration on a Tesla?? | |||
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"EVs and plug in hybrids are currently one of the biggest selling products worldwide. Now working in the trade the biggest issue at the moment is lack of people that are qualified to work on them I freelance and run my business as my freelance I am always getting short term contracts for volvo, ford, vauxhall, peugeot, audi group, lexus/toyota. The amount of battery packs I change are unreal and some of these cars are less than 1 year old and the old battery is literally scraped. Most of the car and commercial hybrid and ev batteries have a 6 year life, at this pont they must be changed (tesla and polestar are 10 year) Demonstrated at audi, the a5 as top spec is 65k, the etron (dame car just electric) base model is 71k They give the running costs over a 5 year period and they work out the same as they don't show the cost of charging the vehicle. The 6th year is when the battery needs to replaced and current cost is 19k (done one last week) The environmental issues are another massive thing the pollution emitted in mining, building shipping and everything else is a lot more than running petrol or diesel vehicles. Personally I see the ev market short lived liked LPG. Hydrogen fuel cells is the long term, toyota have just been approved for UK use for thiers But in the thread we have folks claiming battery life of 10 to 15 years in vehicle followed by further years as a domestic free to use and charge power supply (no idea how that would work nor the safety issues involved). Car manufacturers wouldn't be lying about battery life would they? Like they do with mpg and emissions data? " Do a hybrid EV course or better still go to renault or nissan ask about a leaf or zoe new and watch them try and sell you the battery scheme for £199 a month to replace the battery at 5 years old. No idea where to start with this bollocks. You change EV battery packs on some cars only 1 yr old???? The phrase I'm looking for I think is bullshit. Car manufacturers guarantee battery packs for between 7 and 10 yrs And upto 100000 miles So why you would be swapping out full packs and not just replacing cells??? If your talking about the 12v battery that's a problem with drivers not knowing what their doing. Electric cars work out to cost the same as petrol in the end?? No they don't if anyone wants to do some independent research the truth of that will soon become obvious. Yes Toyota with their hydrogen car have been allowed to sell it in the UK and have sold maybe less than 10 since they launched it 4 yes ago and we have 2 locations in the UK you can get fuel. In Norway they closed most of the stations after one blew up taking out most of the area around it. Toyota refunding anyone who bought there hydrogen car. Even Toyota is going electric. Wanted to produce their "self charging hybrid" in China, (not a thing that exists in reality but people are thick and believe the advertising crap). China told them NO you produce full electric for the China market or you don't sell any. Strangely enough Toyota made electric cars for sale in China. Stop bringing up all the lies and regurgitated nonsense that the oil industry is hoping everyone falls for. | |||
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"EVs and plug in hybrids are currently one of the biggest selling products worldwide. Now working in the trade the biggest issue at the moment is lack of people that are qualified to work on them I freelance and run my business as my freelance I am always getting short term contracts for volvo, ford, vauxhall, peugeot, audi group, lexus/toyota. The amount of battery packs I change are unreal and some of these cars are less than 1 year old and the old battery is literally scraped. Most of the car and commercial hybrid and ev batteries have a 6 year life, at this pont they must be changed (tesla and polestar are 10 year) Demonstrated at audi, the a5 as top spec is 65k, the etron (dame car just electric) base model is 71k They give the running costs over a 5 year period and they work out the same as they don't show the cost of charging the vehicle. The 6th year is when the battery needs to replaced and current cost is 19k (done one last week) The environmental issues are another massive thing the pollution emitted in mining, building shipping and everything else is a lot more than running petrol or diesel vehicles. Personally I see the ev market short lived liked LPG. Hydrogen fuel cells is the long term, toyota have just been approved for UK use for thiers But in the thread we have folks claiming battery life of 10 to 15 years in vehicle followed by further years as a domestic free to use and charge power supply (no idea how that would work nor the safety issues involved). Car manufacturers wouldn't be lying about battery life would they? Like they do with mpg and emissions data? Do a hybrid EV course or better still go to renault or nissan ask about a leaf or zoe new and watch them try and sell you the battery scheme for £199 a month to replace the battery at 5 years old. No idea where to start with this bollocks. You change EV battery packs on some cars only 1 yr old???? The phrase I'm looking for I think is bullshit. Car manufacturers guarantee battery packs for between 7 and 10 yrs And upto 100000 miles So why you would be swapping out full packs and not just replacing cells??? If your talking about the 12v battery that's a problem with drivers not knowing what their doing. Electric cars work out to cost the same as petrol in the end?? No they don't if anyone wants to do some independent research the truth of that will soon become obvious. Yes Toyota with their hydrogen car have been allowed to sell it in the UK and have sold maybe less than 10 since they launched it 4 yes ago and we have 2 locations in the UK you can get fuel. In Norway they closed most of the stations after one blew up taking out most of the area around it. Toyota refunding anyone who bought there hydrogen car. Even Toyota is going electric. Wanted to produce their "self charging hybrid" in China, (not a thing that exists in reality but people are thick and believe the advertising crap). China told them NO you produce full electric for the China market or you don't sell any. Strangely enough Toyota made electric cars for sale in China. Stop bringing up all the lies and regurgitated nonsense that the oil industry is hoping everyone falls for." Actually no its not bollox and you can't swap out cells its complete battery packs, some are done under warranty agreed but most of the time its user error, example tesla charger into volvo xc90 melts the cells in the pack 12v batteries have been around for years thats common practise changing them its like changing batteries in a TV remote. Last month 8 complete battery changes on renault zoe under the battery exchange scheme, 4 on volvo for being fried. The warranty only covers manufacture defects not standard use, wear and tear, or issues from consumer | |||
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"EVs and plug in hybrids are currently one of the biggest selling products worldwide. Now working in the trade the biggest issue at the moment is lack of people that are qualified to work on them I freelance and run my business as my freelance I am always getting short term contracts for volvo, ford, vauxhall, peugeot, audi group, lexus/toyota. The amount of battery packs I change are unreal and some of these cars are less than 1 year old and the old battery is literally scraped. Most of the car and commercial hybrid and ev batteries have a 6 year life, at this pont they must be changed (tesla and polestar are 10 year) Demonstrated at audi, the a5 as top spec is 65k, the etron (dame car just electric) base model is 71k They give the running costs over a 5 year period and they work out the same as they don't show the cost of charging the vehicle. The 6th year is when the battery needs to replaced and current cost is 19k (done one last week) The environmental issues are another massive thing the pollution emitted in mining, building shipping and everything else is a lot more than running petrol or diesel vehicles. Personally I see the ev market short lived liked LPG. Hydrogen fuel cells is the long term, toyota have just been approved for UK use for thiers But in the thread we have folks claiming battery life of 10 to 15 years in vehicle followed by further years as a domestic free to use and charge power supply (no idea how that would work nor the safety issues involved). Car manufacturers wouldn't be lying about battery life would they? Like they do with mpg and emissions data? Do a hybrid EV course or better still go to renault or nissan ask about a leaf or zoe new and watch them try and sell you the battery scheme for £199 a month to replace the battery at 5 years old. No idea where to start with this bollocks. You change EV battery packs on some cars only 1 yr old???? The phrase I'm looking for I think is bullshit. Car manufacturers guarantee battery packs for between 7 and 10 yrs And upto 100000 miles So why you would be swapping out full packs and not just replacing cells??? If your talking about the 12v battery that's a problem with drivers not knowing what their doing. Electric cars work out to cost the same as petrol in the end?? No they don't if anyone wants to do some independent research the truth of that will soon become obvious. Yes Toyota with their hydrogen car have been allowed to sell it in the UK and have sold maybe less than 10 since they launched it 4 yes ago and we have 2 locations in the UK you can get fuel. In Norway they closed most of the stations after one blew up taking out most of the area around it. Toyota refunding anyone who bought there hydrogen car. Even Toyota is going electric. Wanted to produce their "self charging hybrid" in China, (not a thing that exists in reality but people are thick and believe the advertising crap). China told them NO you produce full electric for the China market or you don't sell any. Strangely enough Toyota made electric cars for sale in China. Stop bringing up all the lies and regurgitated nonsense that the oil industry is hoping everyone falls for. Actually no its not bollox and you can't swap out cells its complete battery packs, some are done under warranty agreed but most of the time its user error, example tesla charger into volvo xc90 melts the cells in the pack 12v batteries have been around for years thats common practise changing them its like changing batteries in a TV remote. Last month 8 complete battery changes on renault zoe under the battery exchange scheme, 4 on volvo for being fried. The warranty only covers manufacture defects not standard use, wear and tear, or issues from consumer" You change the pack but then identity the faulty cell Replace then the whole pack is ready to go back into another car that has faulty cells and from what you just said it seems like most of the cases you deal with is customer faults A bit like putting diesel in a petrol and wondering why it won't work (car and tech must be crap) Agreed 12v batteries are simple but they do go faulty due to numpties that don't understand why they can't have everything on at once or leave lights on. Again mostly user faulty not the tech or car manufacturers. And what kretin thinks that because they bought a Volvo XC90 (hybrid) that can only charge it's tiny battery as much as a 3 pin plug can deliver would think it's a good idea to plug it into a Tesla charger????? | |||
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"EVs and plug in hybrids are currently one of the biggest selling products worldwide. Now working in the trade the biggest issue at the moment is lack of people that are qualified to work on them I freelance and run my business as my freelance I am always getting short term contracts for volvo, ford, vauxhall, peugeot, audi group, lexus/toyota. The amount of battery packs I change are unreal and some of these cars are less than 1 year old and the old battery is literally scraped. Most of the car and commercial hybrid and ev batteries have a 6 year life, at this pont they must be changed (tesla and polestar are 10 year) Demonstrated at audi, the a5 as top spec is 65k, the etron (dame car just electric) base model is 71k They give the running costs over a 5 year period and they work out the same as they don't show the cost of charging the vehicle. The 6th year is when the battery needs to replaced and current cost is 19k (done one last week) The environmental issues are another massive thing the pollution emitted in mining, building shipping and everything else is a lot more than running petrol or diesel vehicles. Personally I see the ev market short lived liked LPG. Hydrogen fuel cells is the long term, toyota have just been approved for UK use for thiers But in the thread we have folks claiming battery life of 10 to 15 years in vehicle followed by further years as a domestic free to use and charge power supply (no idea how that would work nor the safety issues involved). Car manufacturers wouldn't be lying about battery life would they? Like they do with mpg and emissions data? Do a hybrid EV course or better still go to renault or nissan ask about a leaf or zoe new and watch them try and sell you the battery scheme for £199 a month to replace the battery at 5 years old. No idea where to start with this bollocks. You change EV battery packs on some cars only 1 yr old???? The phrase I'm looking for I think is bullshit. Car manufacturers guarantee battery packs for between 7 and 10 yrs And upto 100000 miles So why you would be swapping out full packs and not just replacing cells??? If your talking about the 12v battery that's a problem with drivers not knowing what their doing. Electric cars work out to cost the same as petrol in the end?? No they don't if anyone wants to do some independent research the truth of that will soon become obvious. Yes Toyota with their hydrogen car have been allowed to sell it in the UK and have sold maybe less than 10 since they launched it 4 yes ago and we have 2 locations in the UK you can get fuel. In Norway they closed most of the stations after one blew up taking out most of the area around it. Toyota refunding anyone who bought there hydrogen car. Even Toyota is going electric. Wanted to produce their "self charging hybrid" in China, (not a thing that exists in reality but people are thick and believe the advertising crap). China told them NO you produce full electric for the China market or you don't sell any. Strangely enough Toyota made electric cars for sale in China. Stop bringing up all the lies and regurgitated nonsense that the oil industry is hoping everyone falls for. Actually no its not bollox and you can't swap out cells its complete battery packs, some are done under warranty agreed but most of the time its user error, example tesla charger into volvo xc90 melts the cells in the pack 12v batteries have been around for years thats common practise changing them its like changing batteries in a TV remote. Last month 8 complete battery changes on renault zoe under the battery exchange scheme, 4 on volvo for being fried. The warranty only covers manufacture defects not standard use, wear and tear, or issues from consumer You change the pack but then identity the faulty cell Replace then the whole pack is ready to go back into another car that has faulty cells and from what you just said it seems like most of the cases you deal with is customer faults A bit like putting diesel in a petrol and wondering why it won't work (car and tech must be crap) Agreed 12v batteries are simple but they do go faulty due to numpties that don't understand why they can't have everything on at once or leave lights on. Again mostly user faulty not the tech or car manufacturers. And what kretin thinks that because they bought a Volvo XC90 (hybrid) that can only charge it's tiny battery as much as a 3 pin plug can deliver would think it's a good idea to plug it into a Tesla charger?????" The ones that normally own both (quite a few round my way) And mainly the complete packs are cheaper than the cell, once labour is thrown in. (Throw away society). Same comes with engine and gearbox issues, its normal to replace the whole unit if a gear or piston has gone rather than the actual component. Since I would say 2010 there isn't many mechanics about more fitters that replace parts rather than strip and rebuild | |||
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"EVs and plug in hybrids are currently one of the biggest selling products worldwide. Now working in the trade the biggest issue at the moment is lack of people that are qualified to work on them I freelance and run my business as my freelance I am always getting short term contracts for volvo, ford, vauxhall, peugeot, audi group, lexus/toyota. The amount of battery packs I change are unreal and some of these cars are less than 1 year old and the old battery is literally scraped. Most of the car and commercial hybrid and ev batteries have a 6 year life, at this pont they must be changed (tesla and polestar are 10 year) Demonstrated at audi, the a5 as top spec is 65k, the etron (dame car just electric) base model is 71k They give the running costs over a 5 year period and they work out the same as they don't show the cost of charging the vehicle. The 6th year is when the battery needs to replaced and current cost is 19k (done one last week) The environmental issues are another massive thing the pollution emitted in mining, building shipping and everything else is a lot more than running petrol or diesel vehicles. Personally I see the ev market short lived liked LPG. Hydrogen fuel cells is the long term, toyota have just been approved for UK use for thiers But in the thread we have folks claiming battery life of 10 to 15 years in vehicle followed by further years as a domestic free to use and charge power supply (no idea how that would work nor the safety issues involved). Car manufacturers wouldn't be lying about battery life would they? Like they do with mpg and emissions data? Do a hybrid EV course or better still go to renault or nissan ask about a leaf or zoe new and watch them try and sell you the battery scheme for £199 a month to replace the battery at 5 years old. No idea where to start with this bollocks. You change EV battery packs on some cars only 1 yr old???? The phrase I'm looking for I think is bullshit. Car manufacturers guarantee battery packs for between 7 and 10 yrs And upto 100000 miles So why you would be swapping out full packs and not just replacing cells??? If your talking about the 12v battery that's a problem with drivers not knowing what their doing. Electric cars work out to cost the same as petrol in the end?? No they don't if anyone wants to do some independent research the truth of that will soon become obvious. Yes Toyota with their hydrogen car have been allowed to sell it in the UK and have sold maybe less than 10 since they launched it 4 yes ago and we have 2 locations in the UK you can get fuel. In Norway they closed most of the stations after one blew up taking out most of the area around it. Toyota refunding anyone who bought there hydrogen car. Even Toyota is going electric. Wanted to produce their "self charging hybrid" in China, (not a thing that exists in reality but people are thick and believe the advertising crap). China told them NO you produce full electric for the China market or you don't sell any. Strangely enough Toyota made electric cars for sale in China. Stop bringing up all the lies and regurgitated nonsense that the oil industry is hoping everyone falls for. Actually no its not bollox and you can't swap out cells its complete battery packs, some are done under warranty agreed but most of the time its user error, example tesla charger into volvo xc90 melts the cells in the pack 12v batteries have been around for years thats common practise changing them its like changing batteries in a TV remote. Last month 8 complete battery changes on renault zoe under the battery exchange scheme, 4 on volvo for being fried. The warranty only covers manufacture defects not standard use, wear and tear, or issues from consumer You change the pack but then identity the faulty cell Replace then the whole pack is ready to go back into another car that has faulty cells and from what you just said it seems like most of the cases you deal with is customer faults A bit like putting diesel in a petrol and wondering why it won't work (car and tech must be crap) Agreed 12v batteries are simple but they do go faulty due to numpties that don't understand why they can't have everything on at once or leave lights on. Again mostly user faulty not the tech or car manufacturers. And what kretin thinks that because they bought a Volvo XC90 (hybrid) that can only charge it's tiny battery as much as a 3 pin plug can deliver would think it's a good idea to plug it into a Tesla charger????? The ones that normally own both (quite a few round my way) And mainly the complete packs are cheaper than the cell, once labour is thrown in. (Throw away society). Same comes with engine and gearbox issues, its normal to replace the whole unit if a gear or piston has gone rather than the actual component. Since I would say 2010 there isn't many mechanics about more fitters that replace parts rather than strip and rebuild" I'll agree with you on that for certain Most are just fitters that order the part a computer tells them is faulty But I started my time back in '82 and if you couldn't work out what something was by the sound or it or work out a fault from the consequences you weren't employed for very long. I don't see the packs being chucked away due to the cost so somewhere down the line someone with some brains is rebuilding the faulty cells in the packs If not show me where they throw them and I'll split the massive profit we can make ?? | |||
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"EVs and plug in hybrids are currently one of the biggest selling products worldwide. Now working in the trade the biggest issue at the moment is lack of people that are qualified to work on them I freelance and run my business as my freelance I am always getting short term contracts for volvo, ford, vauxhall, peugeot, audi group, lexus/toyota. The amount of battery packs I change are unreal and some of these cars are less than 1 year old and the old battery is literally scraped. Most of the car and commercial hybrid and ev batteries have a 6 year life, at this pont they must be changed (tesla and polestar are 10 year) Demonstrated at audi, the a5 as top spec is 65k, the etron (dame car just electric) base model is 71k They give the running costs over a 5 year period and they work out the same as they don't show the cost of charging the vehicle. The 6th year is when the battery needs to replaced and current cost is 19k (done one last week) The environmental issues are another massive thing the pollution emitted in mining, building shipping and everything else is a lot more than running petrol or diesel vehicles. Personally I see the ev market short lived liked LPG. Hydrogen fuel cells is the long term, toyota have just been approved for UK use for thiers But in the thread we have folks claiming battery life of 10 to 15 years in vehicle followed by further years as a domestic free to use and charge power supply (no idea how that would work nor the safety issues involved). Car manufacturers wouldn't be lying about battery life would they? Like they do with mpg and emissions data? Do a hybrid EV course or better still go to renault or nissan ask about a leaf or zoe new and watch them try and sell you the battery scheme for £199 a month to replace the battery at 5 years old. No idea where to start with this bollocks. You change EV battery packs on some cars only 1 yr old???? The phrase I'm looking for I think is bullshit. Car manufacturers guarantee battery packs for between 7 and 10 yrs And upto 100000 miles So why you would be swapping out full packs and not just replacing cells??? If your talking about the 12v battery that's a problem with drivers not knowing what their doing. Electric cars work out to cost the same as petrol in the end?? No they don't if anyone wants to do some independent research the truth of that will soon become obvious. Yes Toyota with their hydrogen car have been allowed to sell it in the UK and have sold maybe less than 10 since they launched it 4 yes ago and we have 2 locations in the UK you can get fuel. In Norway they closed most of the stations after one blew up taking out most of the area around it. Toyota refunding anyone who bought there hydrogen car. Even Toyota is going electric. Wanted to produce their "self charging hybrid" in China, (not a thing that exists in reality but people are thick and believe the advertising crap). China told them NO you produce full electric for the China market or you don't sell any. Strangely enough Toyota made electric cars for sale in China. Stop bringing up all the lies and regurgitated nonsense that the oil industry is hoping everyone falls for. Actually no its not bollox and you can't swap out cells its complete battery packs, some are done under warranty agreed but most of the time its user error, example tesla charger into volvo xc90 melts the cells in the pack 12v batteries have been around for years thats common practise changing them its like changing batteries in a TV remote. Last month 8 complete battery changes on renault zoe under the battery exchange scheme, 4 on volvo for being fried. The warranty only covers manufacture defects not standard use, wear and tear, or issues from consumer You change the pack but then identity the faulty cell Replace then the whole pack is ready to go back into another car that has faulty cells and from what you just said it seems like most of the cases you deal with is customer faults A bit like putting diesel in a petrol and wondering why it won't work (car and tech must be crap) Agreed 12v batteries are simple but they do go faulty due to numpties that don't understand why they can't have everything on at once or leave lights on. Again mostly user faulty not the tech or car manufacturers. And what kretin thinks that because they bought a Volvo XC90 (hybrid) that can only charge it's tiny battery as much as a 3 pin plug can deliver would think it's a good idea to plug it into a Tesla charger?????" Seem to be getting bogged down in the tech. I have no doubt that as a mode of transport they work well for some peoples circumstances. My observations are four fold. 1. The positioning of the tech as the answer or a significant answer to global warming is never accurately including the environmental cost of raw materials, manufacture and then disposal of used cells. If there is that much confidence then let's see the fully loaded evidence. 2. Charging is environmentally and financially free... No it isn't. Power is generated and leaves a footprint behind. Its distribution leaves a footprint. 3. All our eggs in one basket. As a method of fuelling transport... Fine. Consumer choice. As a strategy for all personal transport whilst the tech and implementation is in its infancy.. Ridiculous. 4. Hypocrisy... If the concern is genuinely to save global warming. Let's not tinker around the edges with something that makes so little difference. Let's have strategies to consume and travel less, work smarter, and most, target the areas in our lives that leave a bigger footprint. | |||
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"EVs and plug in hybrids are currently one of the biggest selling products worldwide. Now working in the trade the biggest issue at the moment is lack of people that are qualified to work on them I freelance and run my business as my freelance I am always getting short term contracts for volvo, ford, vauxhall, peugeot, audi group, lexus/toyota. The amount of battery packs I change are unreal and some of these cars are less than 1 year old and the old battery is literally scraped. Most of the car and commercial hybrid and ev batteries have a 6 year life, at this pont they must be changed (tesla and polestar are 10 year) Demonstrated at audi, the a5 as top spec is 65k, the etron (dame car just electric) base model is 71k They give the running costs over a 5 year period and they work out the same as they don't show the cost of charging the vehicle. The 6th year is when the battery needs to replaced and current cost is 19k (done one last week) The environmental issues are another massive thing the pollution emitted in mining, building shipping and everything else is a lot more than running petrol or diesel vehicles. Personally I see the ev market short lived liked LPG. Hydrogen fuel cells is the long term, toyota have just been approved for UK use for thiers But in the thread we have folks claiming battery life of 10 to 15 years in vehicle followed by further years as a domestic free to use and charge power supply (no idea how that would work nor the safety issues involved). Car manufacturers wouldn't be lying about battery life would they? Like they do with mpg and emissions data? Do a hybrid EV course or better still go to renault or nissan ask about a leaf or zoe new and watch them try and sell you the battery scheme for £199 a month to replace the battery at 5 years old. No idea where to start with this bollocks. You change EV battery packs on some cars only 1 yr old???? The phrase I'm looking for I think is bullshit. Car manufacturers guarantee battery packs for between 7 and 10 yrs And upto 100000 miles So why you would be swapping out full packs and not just replacing cells??? If your talking about the 12v battery that's a problem with drivers not knowing what their doing. Electric cars work out to cost the same as petrol in the end?? No they don't if anyone wants to do some independent research the truth of that will soon become obvious. Yes Toyota with their hydrogen car have been allowed to sell it in the UK and have sold maybe less than 10 since they launched it 4 yes ago and we have 2 locations in the UK you can get fuel. In Norway they closed most of the stations after one blew up taking out most of the area around it. Toyota refunding anyone who bought there hydrogen car. Even Toyota is going electric. Wanted to produce their "self charging hybrid" in China, (not a thing that exists in reality but people are thick and believe the advertising crap). China told them NO you produce full electric for the China market or you don't sell any. Strangely enough Toyota made electric cars for sale in China. Stop bringing up all the lies and regurgitated nonsense that the oil industry is hoping everyone falls for. Actually no its not bollox and you can't swap out cells its complete battery packs, some are done under warranty agreed but most of the time its user error, example tesla charger into volvo xc90 melts the cells in the pack 12v batteries have been around for years thats common practise changing them its like changing batteries in a TV remote. Last month 8 complete battery changes on renault zoe under the battery exchange scheme, 4 on volvo for being fried. The warranty only covers manufacture defects not standard use, wear and tear, or issues from consumer You change the pack but then identity the faulty cell Replace then the whole pack is ready to go back into another car that has faulty cells and from what you just said it seems like most of the cases you deal with is customer faults A bit like putting diesel in a petrol and wondering why it won't work (car and tech must be crap) Agreed 12v batteries are simple but they do go faulty due to numpties that don't understand why they can't have everything on at once or leave lights on. Again mostly user faulty not the tech or car manufacturers. And what kretin thinks that because they bought a Volvo XC90 (hybrid) that can only charge it's tiny battery as much as a 3 pin plug can deliver would think it's a good idea to plug it into a Tesla charger????? The ones that normally own both (quite a few round my way) And mainly the complete packs are cheaper than the cell, once labour is thrown in. (Throw away society). Same comes with engine and gearbox issues, its normal to replace the whole unit if a gear or piston has gone rather than the actual component. Since I would say 2010 there isn't many mechanics about more fitters that replace parts rather than strip and rebuild I'll agree with you on that for certain Most are just fitters that order the part a computer tells them is faulty But I started my time back in '82 and if you couldn't work out what something was by the sound or it or work out a fault from the consequences you weren't employed for very long. I don't see the packs being chucked away due to the cost so somewhere down the line someone with some brains is rebuilding the faulty cells in the packs If not show me where they throw them and I'll split the massive profit we can make ??" Sounds like a plan, I don't get involved in that part. But like the 10 year old scrapper scheme prob all sat in a field somewhere like they are. Near me there is still the cars from when this scheme was launched around 12 years ago  | |||
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"I think that electric car manufacturers have missed a trick with not standardising batteries, and nit making them easy to swap. Imagine if you could drive into a charging station, press 1 button and wait for two minutes whilst a machine removes the battery and puts a fully charged replacement in so you can drive away. No waiting for a 20min partial charge, just swap them out like a toy. Charging is then done away from the vehicle before putting the battery back into circulation. Cal" Genius... Imagine... If the car signals ahead automatically.. To get the battery ready... Just like an f1 pit stop...and charges to your iPhone automatically. In and out in 5 minutes. Buy shares in that company. | |||
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"I think that electric car manufacturers have missed a trick with not standardising batteries, and nit making them easy to swap. Imagine if you could drive into a charging station, press 1 button and wait for two minutes whilst a machine removes the battery and puts a fully charged replacement in so you can drive away. No waiting for a 20min partial charge, just swap them out like a toy. Charging is then done away from the vehicle before putting the battery back into circulation. Cal" The main motorcycle manufacturers have signed a deal so they will all use the same battery. In other news my 1st electric car got delivered this morning. | |||
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"Finally I think the coin has started to drop with this. So what do we do with all of the expired batteries? Maximum 5% of a cell is currently recyclable. Plough them into landfill? " dont even get me started on these. I Will stick with my petrol cars till I absolutely have no choice to swap | |||
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"EVs and plug in hybrids are currently one of the biggest selling products worldwide. Now working in the trade the biggest issue at the moment is lack of people that are qualified to work on them I freelance and run my business as my freelance I am always getting short term contracts for volvo, ford, vauxhall, peugeot, audi group, lexus/toyota. The amount of battery packs I change are unreal and some of these cars are less than 1 year old and the old battery is literally scraped. Most of the car and commercial hybrid and ev batteries have a 6 year life, at this pont they must be changed (tesla and polestar are 10 year) Demonstrated at audi, the a5 as top spec is 65k, the etron (dame car just electric) base model is 71k They give the running costs over a 5 year period and they work out the same as they don't show the cost of charging the vehicle. The 6th year is when the battery needs to replaced and current cost is 19k (done one last week) The environmental issues are another massive thing the pollution emitted in mining, building shipping and everything else is a lot more than running petrol or diesel vehicles. Personally I see the ev market short lived liked LPG. Hydrogen fuel cells is the long term, toyota have just been approved for UK use for thiers But in the thread we have folks claiming battery life of 10 to 15 years in vehicle followed by further years as a domestic free to use and charge power supply (no idea how that would work nor the safety issues involved). Car manufacturers wouldn't be lying about battery life would they? Like they do with mpg and emissions data? Do a hybrid EV course or better still go to renault or nissan ask about a leaf or zoe new and watch them try and sell you the battery scheme for £199 a month to replace the battery at 5 years old. No idea where to start with this bollocks. You change EV battery packs on some cars only 1 yr old???? The phrase I'm looking for I think is bullshit. Car manufacturers guarantee battery packs for between 7 and 10 yrs And upto 100000 miles So why you would be swapping out full packs and not just replacing cells??? If your talking about the 12v battery that's a problem with drivers not knowing what their doing. Electric cars work out to cost the same as petrol in the end?? No they don't if anyone wants to do some independent research the truth of that will soon become obvious. Yes Toyota with their hydrogen car have been allowed to sell it in the UK and have sold maybe less than 10 since they launched it 4 yes ago and we have 2 locations in the UK you can get fuel. In Norway they closed most of the stations after one blew up taking out most of the area around it. Toyota refunding anyone who bought there hydrogen car. Even Toyota is going electric. Wanted to produce their "self charging hybrid" in China, (not a thing that exists in reality but people are thick and believe the advertising crap). China told them NO you produce full electric for the China market or you don't sell any. Strangely enough Toyota made electric cars for sale in China. Stop bringing up all the lies and regurgitated nonsense that the oil industry is hoping everyone falls for. Actually no its not bollox and you can't swap out cells its complete battery packs, some are done under warranty agreed but most of the time its user error, example tesla charger into volvo xc90 melts the cells in the pack 12v batteries have been around for years thats common practise changing them its like changing batteries in a TV remote. Last month 8 complete battery changes on renault zoe under the battery exchange scheme, 4 on volvo for being fried. The warranty only covers manufacture defects not standard use, wear and tear, or issues from consumer You change the pack but then identity the faulty cell Replace then the whole pack is ready to go back into another car that has faulty cells and from what you just said it seems like most of the cases you deal with is customer faults A bit like putting diesel in a petrol and wondering why it won't work (car and tech must be crap) Agreed 12v batteries are simple but they do go faulty due to numpties that don't understand why they can't have everything on at once or leave lights on. Again mostly user faulty not the tech or car manufacturers. And what kretin thinks that because they bought a Volvo XC90 (hybrid) that can only charge it's tiny battery as much as a 3 pin plug can deliver would think it's a good idea to plug it into a Tesla charger????? Seem to be getting bogged down in the tech. I have no doubt that as a mode of transport they work well for some peoples circumstances. My observations are four fold. 1. The positioning of the tech as the answer or a significant answer to global warming is never accurately including the environmental cost of raw materials, manufacture and then disposal of used cells. If there is that much confidence then let's see the fully loaded evidence. 2. Charging is environmentally and financially free... No it isn't. Power is generated and leaves a footprint behind. Its distribution leaves a footprint. 3. All our eggs in one basket. As a method of fuelling transport... Fine. Consumer choice. As a strategy for all personal transport whilst the tech and implementation is in its infancy.. Ridiculous. 4. Hypocrisy... If the concern is genuinely to save global warming. Let's not tinker around the edges with something that makes so little difference. Let's have strategies to consume and travel less, work smarter, and most, target the areas in our lives that leave a bigger footprint. " Trucking industry is going to be hit hard by electric those costs will be passed on to the consumer. A all EV fleet here constantly pulling big hills will not work well. Diesel will still be king until the technology catches up. Same with ev cars pulling big hills are draining battery power quicker. | |||
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"They don't work properly at below zero degrees. My 2006 Ford has started first time everytime, done 235000 miles. Let's see an electdick car do that. They look ugly, can't hear them coming. Boring as hell. Hot Rods rule. Waaaahooo, a la Gasmonkey. I live at 2000 ft above sea level the weather in this area can be hellish even in the summer Recently we had mornings at -5/-8 when I was going to work and settled at around -2 by the time I get off the mountain and into work My electric car was defrosted before I came out my door the heater was running and it worked perfectly. And it's already done 87500 miles since new. Please go buy a Dodge and watch as the Tesla leaves you for dust. Too up two lanes to turn that's simple the driver was a dick. " I think my old Ford would leave a Tesla for dust, especially with a shopping trip, I can fit a months worth of food shopping in one trip whereas the Tesla roadster, will be well .....eating dust. | |||
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"the biggest problem i can see, we are nearing peak electricity use as it is, what will happen if we all get ev? power cuts or worse? nevermind the polution in making the things, and having to mine for the metals used in the batteries. not sure what the answer is, hydrogen has its own problems, storage etc, and energy used in making it a usable fuel. " Perpetual motion, youtube -self moving vehicle idea. | |||
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"The only true clean car was completely derailed There was a inventor called Stanley Meyer who made a car run on water Ford bought him out with plans to bring it to market 3 weeks after Stanley Meyer mystery died and Ford burred the project never to see the light off day Ooo I know conspiracy theory’s but that’s the facts make what you will off the rest " Interesting fact his old patents have now expired so anyone can crack on with building water powered cars now | |||
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"Bloody things are dangerous as you can't hear them coming. I've nearly been wiped out by a Preus? (Is that what they are called) on several occasions in London! Sneaky death traps!! " I’d like to apologise for my stealth electric milk van....  mind you i have my eye on a tesla model y next.... so i dont really apologise....... | |||
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"I think that electric car manufacturers have missed a trick with not standardising batteries, and nit making them easy to swap. Imagine if you could drive into a charging station, press 1 button and wait for two minutes whilst a machine removes the battery and puts a fully charged replacement in so you can drive away. No waiting for a 20min partial charge, just swap them out like a toy. Charging is then done away from the vehicle before putting the battery back into circulation. Cal" Sometimes it's really difficult not to scream at my phone Check out YouTube The company you want shares in is called Bio and the swap takes 3 minutes https://youtu.be/hTsrDpsYHrw Tesla said it wasn't worth doing Bio have dove 1/2 a million swaps and now Tesla are looking at it again. | |||
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"the biggest problem i can see, we are nearing peak electricity use as it is, what will happen if we all get ev? power cuts or worse? nevermind the polution in making the things, and having to mine for the metals used in the batteries. not sure what the answer is, hydrogen has its own problems, storage etc, and energy used in making it a usable fuel. " No we're not and no we won't ?? | |||
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"the biggest problem i can see, we are nearing peak electricity use as it is, what will happen if we all get ev? power cuts or worse? nevermind the polution in making the things, and having to mine for the metals used in the batteries. not sure what the answer is, hydrogen has its own problems, storage etc, and energy used in making it a usable fuel. " I'm amazed at all the comments about mining and transporting the battery materials - do you guys think that diesel engines grow on trees or something? Are there environmental concerns around the mining of lithium? Of course there are but then half of Cumbria is up in arms about a licence issued to mine coking coal (without which you cannot make steel) and aluminium doesn't exactly drip out of snapped twigs. As many have pointed out above, the environmental impact of manufacturing an electric vehicle (including the battery) is pretty much the same as a conventional car. People then move onto how the electricity is produced seemingly believing that their petrol/diesel somehow appears by magic in Tescos petrol station rather than being mined for, transported halfway around the world, refined and then transported further just to get into your tank. Given the massive strides the UK has taken in renewable energy the idea everyone is somehow powering their electric vehicles from coal fired power stations is laughable. Then we have the infrastructure argument - the putting our trust into unproven tech. It seems we have forgotten history. The early industrial revolution meant there was money to be made in transporting goods and materials. Where there is money to be made the infrastructure will appear in a remarkably quick time. How long did it take us to build a network of canals around this country using only muscle power? Look at the incredible growth of the rail network, thousands of miles of track laid a year. All the arguments regarding the infrastructure being missing are exactly the same as those put forward when the internal combustion engine first started taking over from steam. "It can't be done, I can buy coal for my traction engine anywhere, where am I supposed to get petrol?" "I can't even drive this new fangled car most places, there are no roads".... Things change, they change remarkably fast. It won't be long and there will be societies of middle aged men swapping pics of their partially restored Leaf, drooling over the intricacies of replicating early EV tech like they do with their Mark I Escorts and steam engines today. Mr | |||
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"I actually like the idea of the "Scalextric" model for electric cars. All major roads could be fitted with power strips which would power your cars whilst you travel & keep the battery topped up for the minor roads. Cal" And then if you made them a bit bigger people could share them and not need their own... And we could call them....mmmm.... E trams..... I trams.... Or something. | |||
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"The problem here is that there are far too many lazy fuckers who refuse point blank to make any journey without squeezing their fat arses behind the wheel of a car. They seem to have forgotten what their legs are for, they couldn’t give a shit about the impact on the planet or for future generations which often includes their own children" i dont own a car anymore, i used to when i used to have to travel alot for work, there wasnt a viable alternative. no tho i live in the centre of a town and work localy, so have no need of one, and if i need to go somewhere else then public transport works well, plus ive saved a fortune on not running a car, so win win, but agree it wouldnt suit everyone livestyle | |||
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"the biggest problem i can see, we are nearing peak electricity use as it is, what will happen if we all get ev? power cuts or worse? nevermind the polution in making the things, and having to mine for the metals used in the batteries. not sure what the answer is, hydrogen has its own problems, storage etc, and energy used in making it a usable fuel. I'm amazed at all the comments about mining and transporting the battery materials - do you guys think that diesel engines grow on trees or something? Are there environmental concerns around the mining of lithium? Of course there are but then half of Cumbria is up in arms about a licence issued to mine coking coal (without which you cannot make steel) and aluminium doesn't exactly drip out of snapped twigs. As many have pointed out above, the environmental impact of manufacturing an electric vehicle (including the battery) is pretty much the same as a conventional car. People then move onto how the electricity is produced seemingly believing that their petrol/diesel somehow appears by magic in Tescos petrol station rather than being mined for, transported halfway around the world, refined and then transported further just to get into your tank. Given the massive strides the UK has taken in renewable energy the idea everyone is somehow powering their electric vehicles from coal fired power stations is laughable. Then we have the infrastructure argument - the putting our trust into unproven tech. It seems we have forgotten history. The early industrial revolution meant there was money to be made in transporting goods and materials. Where there is money to be made the infrastructure will appear in a remarkably quick time. How long did it take us to build a network of canals around this country using only muscle power? Look at the incredible growth of the rail network, thousands of miles of track laid a year. All the arguments regarding the infrastructure being missing are exactly the same as those put forward when the internal combustion engine first started taking over from steam. "It can't be done, I can buy coal for my traction engine anywhere, where am I supposed to get petrol?" "I can't even drive this new fangled car most places, there are no roads".... Things change, they change remarkably fast. It won't be long and there will be societies of middle aged men swapping pics of their partially restored Leaf, drooling over the intricacies of replicating early EV tech like they do with their Mark I Escorts and steam engines today. Mr" The point however I was trying to make is... Raw materials, Manufacture and use, service and maintenance, and scrapping of any car is inherently bad for the environment. Swapping one thing that is bad for the environment for another thing that is bad for the environment does not make it good for the environment and should not be pitched as such. Its not a comparison of old v new. If people want their new e vehicles fine and dandy. But let's not delude ourselves that they are being virtuous and doing good for the environment nor that the strategy is going to make any difference. Its a comparison of new v the environment. | |||
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" The point however I was trying to make is... Raw materials, Manufacture and use, service and maintenance, and scrapping of any car is inherently bad for the environment. Swapping one thing that is bad for the environment for another thing that is bad for the environment does not make it good for the environment and should not be pitched as such. Its not a comparison of old v new. If people want their new e vehicles fine and dandy. But let's not delude ourselves that they are being virtuous and doing good for the environment nor that the strategy is going to make any difference. Its a comparison of new v the environment. " I'm not sure that is what is happening? I believe it's more a case of we all want to lead the kind of lifestyle where we have personal freedom to travel around but the way we do it now isn't sustainable so let's look for ways to change that? I suppose there will be people who believe that buying an EV will actively make the world a better place but I think most are intelligent enough to realise it is only a way of reducing our impact. Mr | |||
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"The big point everyone seems to forget in this whole debate is the sheer amount of energy required and pollution created just to make the fuel for conventional cars. I work in an oil refinery and can let you all know that we use vast amounts of electricity, literally tons of natural gas, and large quantities of the “rare earths” and precious metals that have been mentioned as being a bad thing about EV’s. The refinery I work at alone is worse for the environment than all of the EV’s on Britain’s roads right now" Absolutely. As so often in this type of debate, people pick up on every single thing they can to discredit those they disagree with while ignoring all the ways their arguments apply to their own beliefs. Every vehicle has an environmental impact and a carbon footprint to build, fuel, maintain and scrap. We are often reminded of the first and last of these by oponents of EV who seem to ignore the same issues with conventional vehicles. I do understand the OP's concerns about replacing a bad system with a slightly less bad one though that wasn't how the post started - and I believe EV will turn out to be a lot less bad. It started with a question about recycling the batteries (though later posts revealed this to be less of a question and more of an attempt to convince others of how bad EV's are). There was a claim that 5% of batteries currently being recycled is the same as only 5% of the battery *can* be recycled despite the two being completely different. Opponents of EV have blithely dismissed tech advances as being unreliable so see nothing wrong in comparing mature tech like the IC engine with new battery tech. A simple comparison in the growth of both over the last two decades answers this. Diesel in particular has come a long way, I drive an 11 year old large diesel estate and routinely get 50+ to the gallon - unbelievable a decade earlier but not special at all against a new diesel. However, in the same time, EV has gone from a tiny range with slow charging, impractical in anything other than a tiny city car to 300 mile range (even 400 in some vehicles) with a quick charge while you grab a coffee and a wee more than enough to get you to your next loo break. We are just starting to see the first viable commercial vehicles. It really won't be long before those claiming how much better petrol is because they can stand on a rain lashed forecourt for three minutes and get enough fuel for 700 miles will look stupid when EV drivers pull up for the night on a charging pad or at a robotic charge point or whatever the future holds and drive off with a similar range without doing anything other than perhaps tap their phone screen a few times. As for the arguments about them looking ugly - I mean seriously? The tech is redundant because you don't like the box it comes in? Or "it doesn't sound like a V8 - just listen to that baby purr" they say, whilst laughing at train spotters getting excited at the sound of a steam locomotive at full throttle
Mr
Mr | |||
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"The big point everyone seems to forget in this whole debate is the sheer amount of energy required and pollution created just to make the fuel for conventional cars. I work in an oil refinery and can let you all know that we use vast amounts of electricity, literally tons of natural gas, and large quantities of the “rare earths” and precious metals that have been mentioned as being a bad thing about EV’s. The refinery I work at alone is worse for the environment than all of the EV’s on Britain’s roads right now Absolutely. As so often in this type of debate, people pick up on every single thing they can to discredit those they disagree with while ignoring all the ways their arguments apply to their own beliefs. Every vehicle has an environmental impact and a carbon footprint to build, fuel, maintain and scrap. We are often reminded of the first and last of these by oponents of EV who seem to ignore the same issues with conventional vehicles. I do understand the OP's concerns about replacing a bad system with a slightly less bad one though that wasn't how the post started - and I believe EV will turn out to be a lot less bad. It started with a question about recycling the batteries (though later posts revealed this to be less of a question and more of an attempt to convince others of how bad EV's are). There was a claim that 5% of batteries currently being recycled is the same as only 5% of the battery *can* be recycled despite the two being completely different. Opponents of EV have blithely dismissed tech advances as being unreliable so see nothing wrong in comparing mature tech like the IC engine with new battery tech. A simple comparison in the growth of both over the last two decades answers this. Diesel in particular has come a long way, I drive an 11 year old large diesel estate and routinely get 50+ to the gallon - unbelievable a decade earlier but not special at all against a new diesel. However, in the same time, EV has gone from a tiny range with slow charging, impractical in anything other than a tiny city car to 300 mile range (even 400 in some vehicles) with a quick charge while you grab a coffee and a wee more than enough to get you to your next loo break. We are just starting to see the first viable commercial vehicles. It really won't be long before those claiming how much better petrol is because they can stand on a rain lashed forecourt for three minutes and get enough fuel for 700 miles will look stupid when EV drivers pull up for the night on a charging pad or at a robotic charge point or whatever the future holds and drive off with a similar range without doing anything other than perhaps tap their phone screen a few times. As for the arguments about them looking ugly - I mean seriously? The tech is redundant because you don't like the box it comes in? Or "it doesn't sound like a V8 - just listen to that baby purr" they say, whilst laughing at train spotters getting excited at the sound of a steam locomotive at full throttle
Mr
Mr"5 % of the battery maximum is currently able to be recycled according to the article. This is due to it being dangerous and labour intensive... According to the article. So any way you want to argue it. From an environmental perspective, it's not a very high number. For a product which is being pitched as...this is our strategy, it will make a difference.. So we are going to force anyone who wants a car to buy one after a certain date. As I've said previously. I just think it's a flawed strategy and stinks of marketing over substance. Rather like marketing cosmetics. | |||
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"The big point everyone seems to forget in this whole debate is the sheer amount of energy required and pollution created just to make the fuel for conventional cars. I work in an oil refinery and can let you all know that we use vast amounts of electricity, literally tons of natural gas, and large quantities of the “rare earths” and precious metals that have been mentioned as being a bad thing about EV’s. The refinery I work at alone is worse for the environment than all of the EV’s on Britain’s roads right now Absolutely. As so often in this type of debate, people pick up on every single thing they can to discredit those they disagree with while ignoring all the ways their arguments apply to their own beliefs. Every vehicle has an environmental impact and a carbon footprint to build, fuel, maintain and scrap. We are often reminded of the first and last of these by oponents of EV who seem to ignore the same issues with conventional vehicles. I do understand the OP's concerns about replacing a bad system with a slightly less bad one though that wasn't how the post started - and I believe EV will turn out to be a lot less bad. It started with a question about recycling the batteries (though later posts revealed this to be less of a question and more of an attempt to convince others of how bad EV's are). There was a claim that 5% of batteries currently being recycled is the same as only 5% of the battery *can* be recycled despite the two being completely different. Opponents of EV have blithely dismissed tech advances as being unreliable so see nothing wrong in comparing mature tech like the IC engine with new battery tech. A simple comparison in the growth of both over the last two decades answers this. Diesel in particular has come a long way, I drive an 11 year old large diesel estate and routinely get 50+ to the gallon - unbelievable a decade earlier but not special at all against a new diesel. However, in the same time, EV has gone from a tiny range with slow charging, impractical in anything other than a tiny city car to 300 mile range (even 400 in some vehicles) with a quick charge while you grab a coffee and a wee more than enough to get you to your next loo break. We are just starting to see the first viable commercial vehicles. It really won't be long before those claiming how much better petrol is because they can stand on a rain lashed forecourt for three minutes and get enough fuel for 700 miles will look stupid when EV drivers pull up for the night on a charging pad or at a robotic charge point or whatever the future holds and drive off with a similar range without doing anything other than perhaps tap their phone screen a few times. As for the arguments about them looking ugly - I mean seriously? The tech is redundant because you don't like the box it comes in? Or "it doesn't sound like a V8 - just listen to that baby purr" they say, whilst laughing at train spotters getting excited at the sound of a steam locomotive at full throttle
Mr
Mr
5 % of the battery maximum is currently able to be recycled according to the article. This is due to it being dangerous and labour intensive... According to the article. So any way you want to argue it. From an environmental perspective, it's not a very high number.
For a product which is being pitched as...this is our strategy, it will make a difference.. So we are going to force anyone who wants a car to buy one after a certain date. As I've said previously. I just think it's a flawed strategy and stinks of marketing over substance. Rather like marketing cosmetics. "But it absolutely will make a difference though! And if we don’t start making a difference NOW, we’re doomed as a species | |||
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" 5 % of the battery maximum is currently able to be recycled according to the article. This is due to it being dangerous and labour intensive... According to the article. So any way you want to argue it. From an environmental perspective, it's not a very high number. For a product which is being pitched as...this is our strategy, it will make a difference.. So we are going to force anyone who wants a car to buy one after a certain date. As I've said previously. I just think it's a flawed strategy and stinks of marketing over substance. Rather like marketing cosmetics. " I honestly think this is more of an issue of perception than reality. It comes across that you believe you are somehow seeing problems that no one else is capable of noticing, that somehow society is being hoodwinked into believing stuff that isn't true and only brave souls like yourself have the intelligence to notice. It may well be the case that for lots of people this is true. But that is why we have laws and regulations - so that people who don't understand what actually goes on are not able to inadvertently be financing animal cruelty, child labour, sl@very, environmental abuse etc. Whilst I would never claim the progress of technology and legal imperatives is without fault, it also isn't some mass delusion project. The issues you raise are well known by the industry, they are the subject of much study. How many engineering graduates do you think are researching how to improve battery life, how to make them safer to recycle, how to re-use and re-purpose vehicle batteries? All this work needs to be done to find the answers and it will only get done if there is desire to do it. That desire comes from social pressure and legislation. By setting dates after which selling conventional engined cars becomes illegal we force industry to come up with the answers to the problems you raise. If government took your attitude and said we will wait till we have solutions before we push for change, why would big car manufacturers do anything other than carry on doing what they've always done? Maybe reading different articles would help? A two second search found this. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.drivingelectric.com/your-questions-answered/840/how-recyclable-are-batteries-electric-cars%3famp Mr | |||
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"It is all a con to make us think that governments are actually doing something! Look at the diesel scandal when they reduced the road tax on them saying they were less polluting than petrol! What a joke! Mind you, what industries were causing the greenhouse gases which ended the ice age? Must have been all those farting mammoths!" 1. Governments had nothing to do with the diesel scandal, that was car manufacturers using ways to deceive the tests. 2. The Ice age was likely caused by a variation in the suns output | |||
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"Combustion engines aren't really the biggest pollution of the planet. Animal agriculture is! " Total crap. We do need to eat and there are millions of acres that arent suitable for growing either cerealcroos or veg, especially the later, grass fed animals provide a vital part of the ecosystem for soil life which in turn feeds the invertebrates which feed larger creatures such as birds etc, grass also absorbs huge amounts of CO2. Dont fall for the anti animal clap trap it has more holes in it than a string vest. | |||
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" 1. Governments had nothing to do with the diesel scandal, that was car manufacturers using ways to deceive the test." Wrong scandal. The real scandal was Gordon Brown reducing road tax on diesel vehicles because they emit less CO2 whilst ignoring particulates which have seriously damaged people's health ever since. All pre euro 5 diesels should be scrapped for this reason alone. | |||
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"It is all a con to make us think that governments are actually doing something! Look at the diesel scandal when they reduced the road tax on them saying they were less polluting than petrol! What a joke! Mind you, what industries were causing the greenhouse gases which ended the ice age? Must have been all those farting mammoths!" The ice age hasn't ended. We are still in it which is why the poles are covered in ice - as they have been for the last 3 million years or so. We live in an interglacial period but as a species we've only ever known an ice age earth. | |||
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"I actually like the idea of the "Scalextric" model for electric cars. All major roads could be fitted with power strips which would power your cars whilst you travel & keep the battery topped up for the minor roads. Cal And then if you made them a bit bigger people could share them and not need their own... And we could call them....mmmm.... E trams..... I trams.... Or something. " The public transport route doesn't work for everyone. It's not a point to point solution and doesn't really facilitate popping to the shops to pick up your shopping, or travelling 90 miles to collect that new sex machine that you've just purchased on ebay. Also, the public transport in this country is not very good and over priced. If they want people to use busses and trains "for the sake of the environment" then they should be very efficient and the cheapest option. Cal | |||
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"It is all a con to make us think that governments are actually doing something! Look at the diesel scandal when they reduced the road tax on them saying they were less polluting than petrol! What a joke! Mind you, what industries were causing the greenhouse gases which ended the ice age? Must have been all those farting mammoths! The ice age hasn't ended. We are still in it which is why the poles are covered in ice - as they have been for the last 3 million years or so. We live in an interglacial period but as a species we've only ever known an ice age earth." Whilst this is true, it doesn't change the fact that the "exit" from that ice age have been hugely accelerated by human activity, or the fact that the ice sitting above the poles is holding enough water to raise sea level by 50 meters. | |||
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"It is all a con to make us think that governments are actually doing something! Look at the diesel scandal when they reduced the road tax on them saying they were less polluting than petrol! What a joke! Mind you, what industries were causing the greenhouse gases which ended the ice age? Must have been all those farting mammoths! The ice age hasn't ended. We are still in it which is why the poles are covered in ice - as they have been for the last 3 million years or so. We live in an interglacial period but as a species we've only ever known an ice age earth. Whilst this is true, it doesn't change the fact that the "exit" from that ice age have been hugely accelerated by human activity, or the fact that the ice sitting above the poles is holding enough water to raise sea level by 50 meters." No argument from me there, I was replying to someone who seemed to doubt that humans caused climate change on the basis that the earth warmed enough 11000 years ago to bring an end to the latest glacial phase and asked if mammoth farts had ended the ice age. Mr | |||
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"Combustion engines aren't really the biggest pollution of the planet. Animal agriculture is! " | |||
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"Combustion engines aren't really the biggest pollution of the planet. Animal agriculture is! "  | |||
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"I can remember saying when Henry Ford started mass producing model Ts that it would bring the world to an end." 1. Why did you say that? 2. You don't look THAT old | |||
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"A lot of luddites ITT It's the future. Crack on. " This | |||
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"Finally I think the coin has started to drop with this. So what do we do with all of the expired batteries? Maximum 5% of a cell is currently recyclable. Plough them into landfill? " No send them to recycling companies, they are worth big money. Especially because the government pay battery recyclers money per tonne depending on type of cells upto £1000 per tonne. So they get paid by the consumer getting rid and also paid by the government. Even if they are not recyclable they will take them. | |||
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