FabSwingers.com forum: Order or freedom

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Whats most important for human people?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Order.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

Order

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

In my personal life, freedom. In my sock drawer, order.

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By *uke olovingmanMan
over a year ago

Gravesend

FREEDOM!!!!!!

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By *rder66Man
over a year ago

Tatooine

It would depend on the human in question.

Society in general is more complicated.

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By *asual_WandererWoman
over a year ago

A spot you want me

Freedom

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Order."

Would you rather have order without freedom, or freedom without order?

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By *oncupiscence73Woman
over a year ago

South

"Whats most important for human people?"

There needs to be order and rules without laws etc there would be no freedom for anyone. Freedom depends upon there being an established order.

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By *rder66Man
over a year ago

Tatooine

"Freedom"
I would like the freedom to look at casual's profile though.

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By *oncupiscence73Woman
over a year ago

South

"Order.

Would you rather have order without freedom, or freedom without order?"

You can’t have freedom without order. We’re there no rules and laws then you wouldn’t be able to have holidays/ cars/ etc etc as they would be taken from you by others.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Not a question that can be broken down into a simple black and white issue is my take on it.

Balance is everything. Interesting to see others snapping to a decision tho. People are fascinating.

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex

A sensible mix of the two.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

As society goes we have freedom, but we are not free to do as we please because of the laws and legislation that set the boundaries of what we can or can't do.

If we had complete freedom; I.e to live without laws then we would end up in carnage so no, I believe to an extent we need order

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The key to a successful society is to convince people they have freedom whilst they are under order

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex

"The key to a successful society is to convince people they have freedom whilst they are under order

Very true.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Freedom brings chaos

Order people feel controlled

It’s definitely a balancing act maybe 70% order 30% Freedom.

Obviously sensible responsible people could live in a world of just freedom but just look at world, unfortunately we are outnumbered

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"Order.

Would you rather have order without freedom, or freedom without order?

You can’t have freedom without order. We’re there no rules and laws then you wouldn’t be able to have holidays/ cars/ etc etc as they would be taken from you by others. "

This.

Order means safe food supply, reduction in threat from violence.

Without order freedom is meaningless.

Freedom is important but order is a more important requirement.

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By *ex-BombsCouple
over a year ago

Flitwick

Order is required for freedom to be obtained! After all if people had of done as they ought to we may well have been out of lockdown a whole lot sooner

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Bit of order then comes freedom

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The key to a successful society is to convince people they have freedom whilst they are under order

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By *histlerMan
over a year ago

Guildford

Order - for a civilisation to work there needs to be an agreed set of principles that everyone works within. Without these there would be chaos. And then no freedoms wound be possible.

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By *andare63Man
over a year ago

oldham

In order comes freedom

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex

Freedom brings responsibility with it though. I don't think being free means you get to do what you want.

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By *oubleswing2019Man
over a year ago

Colchester

It's a good question with a lot of nuance.

I would suggest the answer is just as nuanced and the best way I can try to portray it is by referencing Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.

You can google the pyramid and see what I am talking about.

I would suggest that the bottom 2 tiers (Basics Needs) are fundamentally built on ORDER.

I would posit that the next 2 tiers (Psychological Needs) are built with a mixture of ORDER & FREEDOM

The final tier (Self-fulfillment Needs) is achieved with FREEDOM.

So in my mind the answer is not binary. I require both, and I would suggest the same applies to all.

Unless you are Bear Gryll's.

In which case Basic Needs = FREEDOM.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"Freedom brings responsibility with it though. I don't think being free means you get to do what you want."

God, so much.

I have rights, but my rights are meaningless without responsibilities of others.

I have responsibilities which bolster other people's rights.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Go to work. Get married. Have some kids. Pay your taxes. Pay your bills. Watch your TV. Follow fashion. Act normal. Obey the law. And repeat after me: I AM FREE!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's not either or, a fine balance is required

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By *oubleswing2019Man
over a year ago

Colchester

"Whats most important for human people?"

However, further to my previous answer, the OP asked what is most important to people and it's very interesting that the thread devolved in to a discussion about order & freedom.

The OP didn't lead or pre-load the conversation in any way, and yet most folk's instinctive choices are about the dichotomy of order versus freedom.

Not one single person said "The most important thing to me is Hotel Chocolat, and the enrichment it brings to my life."

Or do I take that is a given ?

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By *oubleswing2019Man
over a year ago

Colchester

Also, the phrase "human people" is superfluous. All people are human.

Granted, some barely so. But even still...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Personally neither as family trumps the two in life’s top trumps.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"Also, the phrase "human people" is superfluous. All people are human.

Granted, some barely so. But even still...

I think there might be a distinction between people, humanity, and society.

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By *oubleswing2019Man
over a year ago

Colchester

I think there might be a distinction between people, humanity, and society."

Most assuredly. I can only make the assumption that the OP was talking about the individual, and not humanity or society writ large.

Sunday morning deep discussions. Excellent brain food

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

I think there might be a distinction between people, humanity, and society.

Most assuredly. I can only make the assumption that the OP was talking about the individual, and not humanity or society writ large.

Sunday morning deep discussions. Excellent brain food

Definitely.

I see it as symbiotic.

I can be entirely self actualised, but if everyone around me is starving, desperate, and have no way out, I'm up shit creek.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

To enjoy - freedom. To survive -order.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Freedom. Who is imposing order? Order will eventually come from freedom.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Wow people do overthink things here

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By *oubleswing2019Man
over a year ago

Colchester

"Definitely.

I see it as symbiotic.

I can be entirely self actualised, but if everyone around me is starving, desperate, and have no way out, I'm up shit creek."

Agreed.

I feel many aspects of a capitalistic-driven society promote the achievement of individual success and economic "freedom" as the pinnacle of attainment. To the detriment of everything and everyone else.

Sometimes it feels just like one giant Ponzi scheme, and the bottom tier is just getting wider and wider, with all the societal problems that entails being drawn in to sharper focus.

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By *aby girl32Woman
over a year ago

Leigh lancs

Freedom for me always has been

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By *oubleswing2019Man
over a year ago

Colchester

"Wow people do overthink things here

We live in a complex world. We are complex beings.

"Life is pain, Highness! Anyone who says otherwise is selling something." - Westley, Princess Bride

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"Definitely.

I see it as symbiotic.

I can be entirely self actualised, but if everyone around me is starving, desperate, and have no way out, I'm up shit creek.

Agreed.

Sometimes it feels just like one giant Ponzi scheme, and the bottom tier is just getting wider and wider, with all the societal problems that entails being drawn in to sharper focus."

Absolutely

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Without order there's chaos

Where there's chaos, freedom is impossible

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Without order there's chaos

Where there's chaos, freedom is impossible "

I don’t agree. Freedom is possible, even in chaos. If someone wants absolute freedom (I’m thinking the hardcore, extreme ancap libertarian types) then they best be prepared to level up their lives and be prepared to shed blood to maintain that freedom. Absolute freedom will inevitably devolve into animal barbarity where only the strongest survive, by taking what they want when they want, by force.

The question was never can one exist without the other, it was which is most important.

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By *tephTV67TV/TS
over a year ago

Cheshire

Anarchy in the UK

someone should write a song about it

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Personal freedom with societal order.

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By *partharmonyCouple
over a year ago

Ruislip

It's a balance, not an either/or.

You can have plenty of order by being wrongfully imprisoned, or plenty of freedom for people to do you harm. Neither is good.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"It's a balance, not an either/or.

You can have plenty of order by being wrongfully imprisoned, or plenty of freedom for people to do you harm. Neither is good. "

Oh, absolutely.

But if I had to choose either/or, I think freedom is subordinate to order.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Extremes of both are harmful.

I feel that governments have too much control and abuse that to "maintain order"

But I also think that societies need some level of order to allow people freedom.

I'm a traditional anarchist politically. I don't believe in royalty, presidents or prime ministers. I think small local government is the way to go but I also know that it's not a reasonable political solution at the moment.

Anyway. Back to the question.

If the choices are mad max or the third reich I would choose mad max.

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By *heVonMatterhornsCouple
over a year ago

Lincoln

Both.

Order without freedom is tyranny, freedom without order is anarchy.

LvM

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By *amie HantsWoman
over a year ago

Atlantis

Neither.

Just loads of confused people wondering about not knowing what they can/should be doing.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Freedom

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By *rHotNottsMan
over a year ago

Dubai & Nottingham

Definitely freedom, which thankfully we have, huge amounts of, to do, say, live, study and work , where and when we choose without interference .... there’s a bunch of countries I know where you couldn’t even have this conversation without fear

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By * AND R 777Couple
over a year ago

Teesside

You cannot have freedom without order

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

its very easy to police good people

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"its very easy to police good people"

Even better when they comply.

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By *rHotNottsMan
over a year ago

Dubai & Nottingham

"You cannot have freedom without order

Self organising teams, organic business models , plenty of examples of order from chaos if you look

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Whats most important for human people?

There needs to be order and rules without laws etc there would be no freedom for anyone. Freedom depends upon there being an established order. "

This

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By *rHotNottsMan
over a year ago

Dubai & Nottingham

"its very easy to police good people

Even better when they comply."

Universal credit ensures compliance , give them just enough to buy what you decide they need and they will love you forever

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By *atnip make me purrWoman
over a year ago

Reading

We are still far too selfish to have complete freedom. So freedom within order.

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By *oncupiscence73Woman
over a year ago

South

[Removed by poster at 18/04/21 14:22:05]

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By *luebell888Woman
over a year ago

Glasgowish

Freedom but not in the way William Wallace desired.

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By *oncupiscence73Woman
over a year ago

South

"its very easy to police good people

Even better when they comply.

Universal credit ensures compliance , give them just enough to buy what you decide they need and they will love you forever "

Them

you do know the majority of working single parents claim some element of universal credit don’t you? Working families on low wages etc etc. Who exactly is ‘them’

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By *oncupiscence73Woman
over a year ago

South

"You cannot have freedom without order

Self organising teams, organic business models , plenty of examples of order from chaos if you look"

Business isn’t life ...... can you imagine shops if there is no method of payment? Self organising teams sounds like a buzz words senior managers use when trying to get more out of more junior staff. Nothing to do with real life

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"You cannot have freedom without order

Self organising teams, organic business models , plenty of examples of order from chaos if you look

This sounds like "you can have freedom without order, because look at this order which I'm defining as not-order"

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By *oncupiscence73Woman
over a year ago

South

"You cannot have freedom without order

Self organising teams, organic business models , plenty of examples of order from chaos if you look

This sounds like "you can have freedom without order, because look at this order which I'm defining as not-order""

Hah exactly!!!

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By * AND R 777Couple
over a year ago

Teesside

"You cannot have freedom without order

Self organising teams, organic business models , plenty of examples of order from chaos if you look

This sounds like "you can have freedom without order, because look at this order which I'm defining as not-order"

Hah exactly!!! "

You cannot have freedom without order, if you give everyone the freedom to do as they please, people will use that freedom to harm others, if you are too scared to go outside you do not have freedom

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"You cannot have freedom without order

Self organising teams, organic business models , plenty of examples of order from chaos if you look

This sounds like "you can have freedom without order, because look at this order which I'm defining as not-order"

Hah exactly!!!

You cannot have freedom without order, if you give everyone the freedom to do as they please, people will use that freedom to harm others, if you are too scared to go outside you do not have freedom "

Agreed, see my comments above

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It’s a false dichotomy. Order provides a platform for freedom. Individual rights need to be balanced with responsibilities to the community, world, planet. We are all holons, whole/parts and as the depth of awareness of each individual holiness increases their sense of responsibilities as a part of something bigger than them expands. When we are born we are undifferentiated from the environment so we don’t have any responsibilities, then we develop to the egocentric stage, where are sole focus is on our own needs and we take little responsibility for our actions, between the age of 4-7 we start to see the world from other perspectives, so we feel responsibilities to our parents, families, ethnic communities, religious community, local community, friendship groups, work groups, chosen professional groups etc. Basically different tribes.. As we evolve we take on broader responsibilities, managerial and leadership of our teams, organisations, clubs etc., and that continues onto responsibilities for issues that affect the world, the planet and the cosmos. Freedom and order are relative to each level of awareness, and as the depth of consciousness increases, each freedom and its associated duties from the previous level are transcended and included. As we evolve to cosmic consciousness we realise that we are already free, and that freedom comes from within. Earlier senses of freedom, rights and responsibilities get put into the context of the relative altitudes, and the associated concerns increasingly dissolve at new levels of integration. Each altitude brings a new sense of order, as the order within the relative chaos is apprehended.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"You cannot have freedom without order

Self organising teams, organic business models , plenty of examples of order from chaos if you look

There are plenty of examples of self organisation, we will see within our lifetime the way we trade energy with each other change as the current capitalism system collapses. We are already doing it. New forms of organising and types of community are springing up all the time. We are already seeing the transformations happening.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It’s a false dichotomy. Order provides a platform for freedom. Individual rights need to be balanced with responsibilities to the community, world, planet. We are all holons, whole/parts and as the depth of awareness of each individual holiness increases their sense of responsibilities as a part of something bigger than them expands. When we are born we are undifferentiated from the environment so we don’t have any responsibilities, then we develop to the egocentric stage, where are sole focus is on our own needs and we take little responsibility for our actions, between the age of 4-7 we start to see the world from other perspectives, so we feel responsibilities to our parents, families, ethnic communities, religious community, local community, friendship groups, work groups, chosen professional groups etc. Basically different tribes.. As we evolve we take on broader responsibilities, managerial and leadership of our teams, organisations, clubs etc., and that continues onto responsibilities for issues that affect the world, the planet and the cosmos. Freedom and order are relative to each level of awareness, and as the depth of consciousness increases, each freedom and its associated duties from the previous level are transcended and included. As we evolve to cosmic consciousness we realise that we are already free, and that freedom comes from within. Earlier senses of freedom, rights and responsibilities get put into the context of the relative altitudes, and the associated concerns increasingly dissolve at new levels of integration. Each altitude brings a new sense of order, as the order within the relative chaos is apprehended."

Haha holiness, I meant to write holon. Auto-carrot strikes again...

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