FabSwingers.com forum: Electric cars

By *tella Heels OP TV/TS
over a year ago

west here ford shire

Pros and cons

For me they’re not a step forward

U.K. has 40 million cars on the road estimated recently, where the heck is all that energy coming from to charge additional EV’s from the national grid, that’s already struggling..

Long distance travel

That’s going to be a big issue too

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Not sure this is what you were looking for.

Boring as fuck to drive.

I've driven Tesla models 3 sport, quick yes but completely soulless, I'll stick to my 2 v8's thanks.

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By * AND R 777Couple
over a year ago

Teesside

What if you live in a street house or block of flats, and cannot always park outside your house,we will need charges everywhere

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Pros and cons

For me they’re not a step forward

U.K. has 40 million cars on the road estimated recently, where the heck is all that energy coming from to charge additional EV’s from the national grid, that’s already struggling..

Long distance travel

That’s going to be a big issue too"
It will get people off the road, as most people have no means of charging their cars at home. It will be a step back in time, as it will only be wealthy people who can afford them.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There will be nothing "green" about all the dead batteries.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm about to get one - cheapest tax option. I feel conflicted

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By *tephanjMan
over a year ago

Kettering

I was going to get one but then thought how am I going to charge it. I rarely get to park outside my house (terraced houses) none of my local petrol stations have a charge point. So face up and brought a petrol car lol

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

I’m an electrician and can say they are the future.

They get better and better each year, the ability to get charging stations in your home gets easier and easier and cheaper every year

If we are gonna tackle climate change they are absolutely a key factor we need to focus on.

Gas will be gone from houses soon which is another big step. Plenty of manufacturers are getting ready to stop production of fossil fuel cars and move entirely electric

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By *aver999Couple
over a year ago

East Mids

The ban won't happen in 9 years, there is no way that the infrastructure could be put in place to charge millions of electric vehicles. Our existing electrical system cannot support it and we don't have enough generating capacity. And its not greener at all.

We need to go first to Hybrid, then Hydrogen. Seems odd that Hybrid which solves both the range anxiety and cleaner short journeys is being dismissed.

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By *eerobCouple
over a year ago

solihull

If there is a prolonged power cut the world will come to a halt. I still not sure how eco friendly they are..carbon footprint now good and disposing the batteries is a nightmare. Pwrsonally dual fuel aeems to be the less drastic way foward..best of all worlds

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

Also while we are on the subject one thing I never see people discuss is the road tax.

Electric cars get the benefit of less tax because they are greener, which is great, until too many people have them and the tax money used to maintain the roads dries up. What happens then? That’s something the government need to be aware of and as an electric car driver you needs to be aware that extra fees and taxes will be coming in eventually

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Estimates say an extra 15-20GW of power generation would be required if we went all electric.

This isn't happening anytime soon. I design and build power stations, battery storage and gas peaking plant up and down the UK. The pipeline of capacity being installed doesn't even come close to this.

Hinkley Point C will be be 3.3GW when that comes on line, still leaves us 12-17 GW short.

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By *entleman JayMan
over a year ago

Wakefield

[Removed by poster at 27/03/21 11:37:38]

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

"Estimates say an extra 15-20GW of power generation would be required if we went all electric.

Hinkley Point C will be be 3.3GW when that comes on line, still leaves us 12-17 GW short.

Interesting as fuck!!

Where do you think we will see the biggest issue in reaching that capacity? Where’s the biggest bottle necks?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

5 car battery plants being built in the next 5/6 years. It’s going to happen. I drove a hybrid last week for the first time, it felt strange but also really fun

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

"Estimates say an extra 15-20GW of power generation would be required if we went all electric.

Hinkley Point C will be be 3.3GW when that comes on line, still leaves us 12-17 GW short.

Also since your here, gas heating is due to be taken off the menu for new build houses soon, is the demand for that an issue?

I don’t know all the specs yet, but typically you run a houses entire heating system off a 3amp fuse. Some of the all electric boilers I’ve seen can pull upwards of 30amp and that’s for a small house

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By *aver999Couple
over a year ago

East Mids

"If there is a prolonged power cut the world will come to a halt. I still not sure how eco friendly they are..carbon footprint now good and disposing the batteries is a nightmare. Pwrsonally dual fuel aeems to be the less drastic way foward..best of all worlds"

An all electric car in the UK needs to do about 50,000 Km before it breaks even on CO2 compared to petrol. In France its about half that because they generate their electric fron Nuclear.

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By *ealthy_and_HungMan
over a year ago

Princes Risborough, Luasanne, Alderney

when share ownership in renewables and electric car production is greater than it is in fossil fuels and combustion tech, then the later will nose dive rapidly. change will be financially driven

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Estimates say an extra 15-20GW of power generation would be required if we went all electric.

Hinkley Point C will be be 3.3GW when that comes on line, still leaves us 12-17 GW short.

Interesting as fuck!!

Where do you think we will see the biggest issue in reaching that capacity? Where’s the biggest bottle necks?"

Time

The speed at which we can build them, the planning permission and environmental permits.

Takes 2-3 years to build a small 10-20MW energy from waste plant, another 2 years or so before that of permitting and planning consent etc.

We are also losing West Burton A and Ratcliffe on Soar both 2GW coal plant, so that's another 4GW we have to replace.

Just cant build them quick enough

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

"Estimates say an extra 15-20GW of power generation would be required if we went all electric.

Hinkley Point C will be be 3.3GW when that comes on line, still leaves us 12-17 GW short.

Interesting as fuck!!

Where do you think we will see the biggest issue in reaching that capacity? Where’s the biggest bottle necks?

Time

The speed at which we can build them, the planning permission and environmental permits.

Takes 2-3 years to build a small 10-20MW energy from waste plant, another 2 years or so before that of permitting and planning consent etc.

We are also losing West Burton A and Ratcliffe on Soar both 2GW coal plant, so that's another 4GW we have to replace.

Just cant build them quick enough

You got an interesting job!

So what’s the solution here? Just a slower roll out of electric cars?

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By *aver999Couple
over a year ago

East Mids

"Estimates say an extra 15-20GW of power generation would be required if we went all electric.

Hinkley Point C will be be 3.3GW when that comes on line, still leaves us 12-17 GW short.

Interesting as fuck!!

Where do you think we will see the biggest issue in reaching that capacity? Where’s the biggest bottle necks?

Time

The speed at which we can build them, the planning permission and environmental permits.

Takes 2-3 years to build a small 10-20MW energy from waste plant, another 2 years or so before that of permitting and planning consent etc.

We are also losing West Burton A and Ratcliffe on Soar both 2GW coal plant, so that's another 4GW we have to replace.

Just cant build them quick enough

You got an interesting job!

So what’s the solution here? Just a slower roll out of electric cars? "

To stop pissing about with all these fake 'green renewable' solutions and build nuclear power stations

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Biggest con they better for the environment

Make the lithium batterys for 1 ev car is the same pollution as runing a Land Rover for 50 years none stop

They more harmful to the environment than petrol cars

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

"Estimates say an extra 15-20GW of power generation would be required if we went all electric.

Hinkley Point C will be be 3.3GW when that comes on line, still leaves us 12-17 GW short.

Interesting as fuck!!

Where do you think we will see the biggest issue in reaching that capacity? Where’s the biggest bottle necks?

Time

The speed at which we can build them, the planning permission and environmental permits.

Takes 2-3 years to build a small 10-20MW energy from waste plant, another 2 years or so before that of permitting and planning consent etc.

We are also losing West Burton A and Ratcliffe on Soar both 2GW coal plant, so that's another 4GW we have to replace.

Just cant build them quick enough

You got an interesting job!

So what’s the solution here? Just a slower roll out of electric cars?

To stop pissing about with all these fake 'green renewable' solutions and build nuclear power stations"

The stigma around nuclear power is so damaging. It’s seem like it’s the answer to all our issues until we can be fully powered by solar/wind.

I mean yeah at one point we accidentally made a dying star by messing it up and almost destroyed the planet, but accidents happen!

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

"Biggest con they better for the environment

Make the lithium batterys for 1 ev car is the same pollution as runing a Land Rover for 50 years none stop

They more harmful to the environment than petrol cars

You got a source for that?

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By *nliveneTV/TS
over a year ago

Selby

I agree best of both worlds

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By *andare63Man
over a year ago

oldham

"Biggest con they better for the environment

Make the lithium batterys for 1 ev car is the same pollution as runing a Land Rover for 50 years none stop

They more harmful to the environment than petrol cars

Not disputing but can 8 ask your proof and source?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Biggest con they better for the environment

Make the lithium batterys for 1 ev car is the same pollution as runing a Land Rover for 50 years none stop

They more harmful to the environment than petrol cars

You got a source for that? "

Just google lithium mines and you see

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

Until the battery range improves, they're not for me.

I do wonder about all of the people who can only afford older second hand vehicles, just when they will be able to afford them and have sufficient battery quality left in the older cars that they buy.

A third of our emissions come from transport, so it's a key sector to reduce CO2 emissions from. The sooner it's done, the easier it is to keep global heating to a minimal level.

We should reduce vehicle road use, if possible, which would probably mean a huge investment in public transport. We probably won't get that to a sufficient level though here, so cars will remain necessary.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Biggest con they better for the environment

Make the lithium batterys for 1 ev car is the same pollution as runing a Land Rover for 50 years none stop

They more harmful to the environment than petrol cars

Not disputing but can 8 ask your proof and source? "

Google lithium mines

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Estimates say an extra 15-20GW of power generation would be required if we went all electric.

Hinkley Point C will be be 3.3GW when that comes on line, still leaves us 12-17 GW short.

Interesting as fuck!!

Where do you think we will see the biggest issue in reaching that capacity? Where’s the biggest bottle necks?

Time

The speed at which we can build them, the planning permission and environmental permits.

Takes 2-3 years to build a small 10-20MW energy from waste plant, another 2 years or so before that of permitting and planning consent etc.

We are also losing West Burton A and Ratcliffe on Soar both 2GW coal plant, so that's another 4GW we have to replace.

Just cant build them quick enough

You got an interesting job!

So what’s the solution here? Just a slower roll out of electric cars?

To stop pissing about with all these fake 'green renewable' solutions and build nuclear power stations"

I don't disagree with this, I do a bit for Hinkley Point C and love it.

Unfortunately funding and the tree huggers are the biggest obstacle.

That and they can take 7 years or so to get to the point of hanover and operation.

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

"Biggest con they better for the environment

Make the lithium batterys for 1 ev car is the same pollution as runing a Land Rover for 50 years none stop

They more harmful to the environment than petrol cars

You got a source for that?

Just google lithium mines and you see "

You said it so why don’t you find the proof and link it. It’s not on us to prove your “facts”

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By *andare63Man
over a year ago

oldham

"I'm about to get one - cheapest tax option. I feel conflicted "

Maybe look at hybrid if you are in 2 minds. I think it's very early days to go fully electric. We are years behind Germany with the infrastructure

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By *aver999Couple
over a year ago

East Mids

"Pros and cons

For me they’re not a step forward

U.K. has 40 million cars on the road estimated recently, where the heck is all that energy coming from to charge additional EV’s from the national grid, that’s already struggling..

Long distance travel

That’s going to be a big issue too"

It depends on your millage. If it's low then just get an efficient petrol, if its longer then get a hybrid which will use electric for local trips to the shops (nice and clean) and switch to petrol for the longer journeys without worrying to find a charger.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Estimates say an extra 15-20GW of power generation would be required if we went all electric.

Hinkley Point C will be be 3.3GW when that comes on line, still leaves us 12-17 GW short.

Interesting as fuck!!

Where do you think we will see the biggest issue in reaching that capacity? Where’s the biggest bottle necks?

Time

The speed at which we can build them, the planning permission and environmental permits.

Takes 2-3 years to build a small 10-20MW energy from waste plant, another 2 years or so before that of permitting and planning consent etc.

We are also losing West Burton A and Ratcliffe on Soar both 2GW coal plant, so that's another 4GW we have to replace.

Just cant build them quick enough

You got an interesting job!

So what’s the solution here? Just a slower roll out of electric cars?

To stop pissing about with all these fake 'green renewable' solutions and build nuclear power stations

The stigma around nuclear power is so damaging. It’s seem like it’s the answer to all our issues until we can be fully powered by solar/wind.

I mean yeah at one point we accidentally made a dying star by messing it up and almost destroyed the planet, but accidents happen! "

Solar isn't an option.

We need peaking plant and battery storage to take up the slack when we dont generate as no suns_ine. Same for wind, it can be hot and miss so needs a back up.

Without it the grid would just fall over.

In addition to the extra generation theres also the infrastructure, cables need upgrading, places in the arsehole of no where in Scotland will need massive upgrades to their supplies.

It's just not doable in the timeframe.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Biggest con they better for the environment

Make the lithium batterys for 1 ev car is the same pollution as runing a Land Rover for 50 years none stop

They more harmful to the environment than petrol cars

You got a source for that?

Just google lithium mines and you see

You said it so why don’t you find the proof and link it. It’s not on us to prove your “facts”"

Well I would but it’s agents forum rules to post links I gave you how to find the link google lithium mines

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

"Biggest con they better for the environment

Make the lithium batterys for 1 ev car is the same pollution as runing a Land Rover for 50 years none stop

They more harmful to the environment than petrol cars

You got a source for that?

Just google lithium mines and you see

You said it so why don’t you find the proof and link it. It’s not on us to prove your “facts”

Well I would but it’s agents forum rules to post links I gave you how to find the link google lithium mines "

PM me

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I was going to get one but then thought how am I going to charge it. I rarely get to park outside my house (terraced houses) none of my local petrol stations have a charge point. So face up and brought a petrol car lol"
Correct. The government and mayor of London keep on about electric cars being the way forward, but the infrastructure isn't there to support it. It is total nonsense.

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By *hunky GentMan
over a year ago

Maldon and Peterborough

I drive a hybrid, but i hope to have a full electric or hydrogen car one be day.

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By *alandNitaCouple
over a year ago

Scunthorpe

"There will be nothing "green" about all the dead batteries. "

99.9% of the components of batteries are recycled.

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By *siris01Man
over a year ago

Luton

Bit of a fools paradise at the moment...the government giving incentives to buy electric...but are they going to give up the enormous tax take from petrol/diesel...unlikely.

When electric cars are the majority usage & charging costs will soar to make up the loss of revenue.

So enjoy the next few years...

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman
over a year ago

King's Crustacean

I saw a mini type car parked up outside a showroom this week.

It looked fantastic..... I wanted it.. gave it a good once over.... then realised it was electric and lost interest.

I'm not against electric cars - I just can't work out how the hell i'm supposed to fuel it.

I'll reconsider getting one when they work out how to supply people with the necessary fuelling.

If I was to 'plug' in at home - who gets the money ? The electric companies ? Weird. Would it go on my bill

I'd find a way of getting from a lampost or your house

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By *hunky GentMan
over a year ago

Maldon and Peterborough

Doing your research may encourage a few to go down the electric or hybrid route.

I love mine - its a bit weird at first, but you soon get used to it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Doing your research may encourage a few to go down the electric or hybrid route.

I love mine - its a bit weird at first, but you soon get used to it. "

I won't get one until I'm forced or don't have a choice.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Doing your research may encourage a few to go down the electric or hybrid route.

I love mine - its a bit weird at first, but you soon get used to it.

I won't get one until I'm forced or don't have a choice. "
Sooner or later petrol and diesel cars will be totally banned. Then watch the price of electricity skyrocket, and taxation on the new technology. As soon as enough people are in the club, tax on cars will soar again.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Roads will end up like a scalextric track with charging lines in the tarmac cars can pick up as they travel.

Bloody expensive cost and years of delays.

Seems a bit all expensive to me

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By *alandNitaCouple
over a year ago

Scunthorpe

Being a drummer in a band, I need a van. Unfortunately the electric options on vans are not upto the job for me. Most have a reduced load capacity due to the weight of batteries, and the range offered isn't enough to cope with a gig 50 miles away (and listed range is based on empty van). Also, the cost of an electric van is a huge jump over the diesel versions.

Cal

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By *riftsMan
over a year ago

bagshot

It will go hydrogen.

Just came off of an electric car course and everyone that believes they are green and saving the environment are very much mistaken.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Being a drummer in a band, I need a van. Unfortunately the electric options on vans are not upto the job for me. Most have a reduced load capacity due to the weight of batteries, and the range offered isn't enough to cope with a gig 50 miles away (and listed range is based on empty van). Also, the cost of an electric van is a huge jump over the diesel versions.

Cal"
The powers to be are not interested in what is and isn't practical. So long as their green policy figures stack up.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The best way forward is one car per house it's a win win all the way,to many cars on the road!

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By *ilverjagMan
over a year ago

swansea

I've got five vehicles ranging from big boy's toys to wheelchair adapted for getting my mum around. Until they develop an electric one that can get mum five hundred miles in one hit, I've no choice but to stick with internal combustion.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

We should be aware that the source of most of the elements required to make the batteries etc is third world countries where the extraction of said elements is far worse than your average jeans sweat shop in China etc. Also the political instability of many of these countries puts the supply chain at risk.

Quote from a 2020 report:

"Reserves of the raw materials for car batteries are highly concentrated in a few countries. Nearly 50% of world cobalt reserves are in the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC), 58% of lithium reserves are in Chile, 80% of natural graphite reserves are in China, Brazil and Turkey, while 75% of manganese reserves are in Australia, Brazil, South Africa and Ukraine.

The highly concentrated production, susceptible to disruption by political instability and adverse environmental impacts, raises concerns about the security of the supply of the raw materials to battery manufacturers.

The report warns that supply disruptions may lead to tighter markets, higher prices and increased costs of car batteries, affecting the global transition to low-carbon electric mobility."

Article title: Demand for raw materials for electric car batteries set to rise further

From the UNCTAD (part of the United Nations)

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By *hunky GentMan
over a year ago

Maldon and Peterborough

Id suggest we do back to using horses and carts, but then someone will complain about cutting down trees for the,carts and cruelty to horses.

You can never win.

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By *ilverjagMan
over a year ago

swansea

"Id suggest we do back to using horses and carts, but then someone will complain about cutting down trees for the,carts and cruelty to horses.

You can never win. "

You just hit a nail right on the head there. In the picturesque Cornish village of Polperro only residents cars, and those with business there can enter the village, otherwise it's electric busses or shank's pony. However if you look at old post cards of Polperro it was horse drawn busses that were used, until animal welfare activists got the practice banned, so I was told by a local guy who I know very well.

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By *ady LickWoman
over a year ago

Northampton Somewhere

Bookmarking.

Thinking of getting one for next co car, mainly to save loads of money on tax.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Doing your research may encourage a few to go down the electric or hybrid route.

I love mine - its a bit weird at first, but you soon get used to it.

I won't get one until I'm forced or don't have a choice. Sooner or later petrol and diesel cars will be totally banned. Then watch the price of electricity skyrocket, and taxation on the new technology. As soon as enough people are in the club, tax on cars will soar again."

They'll ban the sale of new ones but they wont ban ownership of old ones, tax will increase on those who dont own wlectric cars I'm sure.

Price of electric cars is also a huge issue, many people who need a car wont be able to afford to buy one new, or even used.

Petrol and diesel cars will stil be around for a long time.

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By *elma and ShaggyCouple
over a year ago

Bedworth

"The best way forward is one car per house it's a win win all the way,to many cars on the road!"

Nice idea in principle but it wouldn’t work. How would people get to work? Where we live the bus service doesn’t start until 7am and finishes about 6pm. No good when you start work at 6am!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If you want electric buy a milk float.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Probably a good idea to buy a newish petrol / diesel vehicle @2029 and keep it for distance trips and a dodgem car for local commutes/shopping etc...

I can't see commercial/agricultural/military vehicles going electric in my lifetime so fossil fuels are going to be around for a while yet.

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By *htcMan
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 27/03/21 19:06:38]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It really doesn't matter what we think of electric cars.

The next generations dictates what stays and goes and from the current trends I can safely say ICE cars are thing of the past.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

FYI Tesla's net worth is higher than all the other car manufacturers combined. Hopefully that clears things up on what stays and goes.

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By *htcMan
over a year ago

my next cars will be diesel, and then another just before they stop making them, or ban them.

will wait for the technology on battery charge time + mileage to catch up.

one other thing anyone who has any car already do not pay for recycling of your old battery when it changed, its worth cash

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By *iddle ManMan
over a year ago

Walsall

I just can't see how it will work for the masses with current plans.

Sooner or later we will all have to go electric at some point. For now though we are so far from that time its unreal to imagine it. The infrastructure isn't there and more worrying the plans aren't in place for it to be so anytime soon.

The technology isnt there yet for a like for like switch over to electric for most people.

Then there is the price, at the moment the cost is way to high for your return. At the moment the technology is changing fast so a car you have today with a range of 200miles will probably be obsolete in 2 to 3 years when new ones can do twice if not treble that. Like owning the lastest phone today, technology changes so fast in a few years that new phone is next to worthless.

A lot of people will be forced out of driving too due to high initial costs and a very unreliable second hand market.

The fossil fuel car has had over a century of improvements and reliabitly and resale values can be determined.

This is a new challenge for us all to come to terms with. It is going to happen, I just can't see how.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

For what it’s worth, my thoughts are it’s just shifting from one pollutant to another ...... cobalt mining to manufacture batteries on the scale needed will destroy areas of natural beauty or the seabed as is proposed....... but I doubt I’ll see EV take up in mass scale in my lifetime.

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By *ebjonnsonMan
over a year ago

Maldon

"I just can't see how it will work for the masses with current plans.

The technology isnt there yet for a like for like switch over to electric for most people.

A lot of people will be forced out of driving too due to high initial costs and a very unreliable second hand market.

The fossil fuel car has had over a century of improvements and reliabitly and resale values can be determined.

This is a new challenge for us all to come to terms with. It is going to happen, I just can't see how. "

Great point. They no longer want the masses driving. Motoring will revert to a luxury or for the elite.

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By *tella Heels OP TV/TS
over a year ago

west here ford shire

"I'm about to get one - cheapest tax option. I feel conflicted "

Erm only for one year ..

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By *tella Heels OP TV/TS
over a year ago

west here ford shire

"Also while we are on the subject one thing I never see people discuss is the road tax.

Just to clarify

You only pay nothing for the first year it’s on the road

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By *tella Heels OP TV/TS
over a year ago

west here ford shire

"Estimates say an extra 15-20GW of power generation would be required if we went all electric.

Hinkley Point C will be be 3.3GW when that comes on line, still leaves us 12-17 GW short.

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By *tella Heels OP TV/TS
over a year ago

west here ford shire

"5 car battery plants being built in the next 5/6 years. It’s going to happen. I drove a hybrid last week for the first time, it felt strange but also really fun

Erm it’s a hybrid not an EV

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By *tella Heels OP TV/TS
over a year ago

west here ford shire

"Biggest con they better for the environment

Make the lithium batterys for 1 ev car is the same pollution as runing a Land Rover for 50 years none stop

They more harmful to the environment than petrol cars

Glad someone bought this up

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By *tella Heels OP TV/TS
over a year ago

west here ford shire

"Until the battery range improves, they're not for me.

A third of our emissions come from transport, so it's a key sector to reduce CO2 emissions from. The sooner it's done, the easier it is to keep global heating to a minimal level.

Hey good old beeching report back in the 60’s the man had vision not!!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm about to get one - cheapest tax option. I feel conflicted

Erm only for one year .."

Nope, EVs are exempt from road tax. Not just one year.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"FYI Tesla's net worth is higher than all the other car manufacturers combined. Hopefully that clears things up on what stays and goes."

I doubt it is and as far as motor manufacturers go Tesla is like a bloke working in his shed.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Mines acoustic

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"FYI Tesla's net worth is higher than all the other car manufacturers combined. Hopefully that clears things up on what stays and goes.

I doubt it is and as far as motor

manufacturers go Tesla is like a bloke working in his shed."

You doubt what? The facts and statistics?

P.s. I drive a diesel but I'm not going to support it if odds are against it.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

"Mines acoustic "

Mine's got a special clutch control for special people

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By *orthern StarsCouple
over a year ago

Durham, North Yorkshire and can travel

"I'm about to get one - cheapest tax option. I feel conflicted

Erm only for one year ..

Nope, EVs are exempt from road tax. Not just one year."

I drive a diesel 1.6 TDI and it's zero road tax

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm about to get one - cheapest tax option. I feel conflicted

Erm only for one year ..

Nope, EVs are exempt from road tax. Not just one year."

Once the pendulum of ownership shifts to EVs taxation will start ........ governments regardless of party will need to raise tax from road / car use..... it’s inevitable

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By *tella Heels OP TV/TS
over a year ago

west here ford shire

"Pros and cons

For me they’re not a step forward

U.K. has 40 million cars on the road estimated recently, where the heck is all that energy coming from to charge additional EV’s from the national grid, that’s already struggling..

Long distance travel

That’s going to be a big issue too

Erm in 9 years there will be no more hybrid cars in production, only vehicles that are 100% electric would be available

Consider that fact the think about the implications, look up lithium mining it’s horrendous to the environment

Think 40 million cars in the U.K.

Where the helm is that energy going to come from?

Hmm ???

Best EV can do 200-240 miles if you don’t use lights, radio, heater. Etc..

So if you need to do a journey of say 350 miles (175 each way)

Will no longer be possible in none day...

It will take most likely, even with best technology around 4-6 hours to charge. So you need to stop over ...

HGV’s

So how is food and everything else going to be distributed throughout the U.K.?

All HGV will have to comply and become electric powered.. most likely a 100-120 range

This is the future???

Seems we’re going back to horse snd cart days

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By *tella Heels OP TV/TS
over a year ago

west here ford shire

"Bit of a fools paradise at the moment...the government giving incentives to buy electric...but are they going to give up the enormous tax take from petrol/diesel...unlikely.

When electric cars are the majority usage & charging costs will soar to make up the loss of revenue.

So enjoy the next few years..."

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By *ebjonnsonMan
over a year ago

Maldon

"I just can't see how it will work for the masses with current plans.

The technology isnt there yet for a like for like switch over to electric for most people.

A lot of people will be forced out of driving too due to high initial costs and a very unreliable second hand market.

The fossil fuel car has had over a century of improvements and reliabitly and resale values can be determined.

This is a new challenge for us all to come to terms with. It is going to happen, I just can't see how. "

Great point. They no longer want the masses driving. Motoring will revert to a luxury or for the elite.

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By *tella Heels OP TV/TS
over a year ago

west here ford shire

"I'm about to get one - cheapest tax option. I feel conflicted

Erm only for one year ..

Nope, EVs are exempt from road tax. Not just one year."

https://www.nextgreencar.com/electric-cars/buying-guide/tax/

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By *tella Heels OP TV/TS
over a year ago

west here ford shire

"I'm about to get one - cheapest tax option. I feel conflicted

Erm only for one year ..

Nope, EVs are exempt from road tax. Not just one year."

See the link I posted

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Mines acoustic

Mine's got a special clutch control for special people

Im jealous

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By *tella Heels OP TV/TS
over a year ago

west here ford shire

"I'm about to get one - cheapest tax option. I feel conflicted

Erm only for one year ..

Nope, EVs are exempt from road tax. Not just one year.

Once the pendulum of ownership shifts to EVs taxation will start ........ governments regardless of party will need to raise tax from road / car use..... it’s inevitable "

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Biggest con they better for the environment

Make the lithium batterys for 1 ev car is the same pollution as runing a Land Rover for 50 years none stop

They more harmful to the environment than petrol cars

Glad someone bought this up"

Bollox. If the electricity source is renewable then EV's have a far smaller lifetime carbon footprint. Even for countries with a lower mix of renewables, they compare favourably with the average internal combustion engine vehicle - certainly better than a bloody Range Rover.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/EV-life-cycle-GHG_ICCT-Briefing_09022018_vF.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiq-tfjttHvAhUsUBUIHb4nCfkQFjABegQIEhAG&usg=AOvVaw1Lcr9hNTDpuSgIDf37897b

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

"Mines acoustic

Mine's got a special clutch control for special people

Im jealous "

Google "duck clutch". Honestly, all manual cars should have 'em. Excellent fun, much better than the foot clutch. It was cheaper to adapt mine than trade in and buy a boring old auto

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By *tella Heels OP TV/TS
over a year ago

west here ford shire

"Biggest con they better for the environment

Make the lithium batterys for 1 ev car is the same pollution as runing a Land Rover for 50 years none stop

They more harmful to the environment than petrol cars

Glad someone bought this up

Mr"

Bollox??

Ok look at life time of lithium batteries

Look at lithium mining

40million cars on U.K. roads (fact)

Where is the energy coming from to charge these vehicles

This is additional to anything else

Additional to the increase on the national grid when gas and oil is banned for home heating

( production of gas central heating boilers has been stopped )

Ohh of course we’ll get all our needs from building wind turbines

Nope they are not efficient enough

The only option is building loads of nuclear power stations..

That’s a green option

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm about to get one - cheapest tax option. I feel conflicted

Erm only for one year ..

Nope, EVs are exempt from road tax. Not just one year.

See the link I posted "

I suggest you read your own link

"Finally, pure-EVs - those with zero-tailpipe emissions - alone qualify for zero VED, including an exemption from the premium rate"

Not trying to attack you Stella but it looks like you've made up your mind on the issue despite having at best dated views of the facts.

The best range on an EV is a lot more than you quote - a friend recently took their Tesla on holiday to Scotland from South Wales and said they spent no more time in services than they normally would on that diet of journey, depending on the weather they often get 300 miles+ out of a charge.

You are correct that for HGV's and vans we are still a long way off but that gap is closing all the time.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Biggest con they better for the environment

Make the lithium batterys for 1 ev car is the same pollution as runing a Land Rover for 50 years none stop

They more harmful to the environment than petrol cars

Glad someone bought this up

Bollox??

Ok look at life time of lithium batteries

Look at lithium mining

40million cars on U.K. roads (fact)

Where is the energy coming from to charge these vehicles

This is additional to anything else

Additional to the increase on the national grid when gas and oil is banned for home heating

( production of gas central heating boilers has been stopped )

Ohh of course we’ll get all our needs from building wind turbines

Nope they are not efficient enough

The only option is building loads of nuclear power stations..

That’s a green option "

Read the briefing I posted a link to - full of useful info

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By *UGGYBEAR2015Man
over a year ago

BRIDPORT

I’d consider an electric car if they can link a sound track to the accelerator pedal so it sounds like a BDA and have a car freshener that emits the smell of CastrolR.

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By *tace 309TV/TS
over a year ago

durham

The average, life of the batteries in these cars, is around 8 years

A huge problem will arrive in the future with these batteries as 94%of the materials from these batteries cannot be recycled or got rid of. Therefore there will be huge stockpiles of these left all over the place. Yes the future will thank us for this no end. We are just creating more problems for the future to solve. Another refrigerator and plastic bag problem beckons. Electric is not the way to go.

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By *lan157Man
over a year ago

a village near Haywards Heath in East Sussex

Only early adopters will benefit from low taxation .Once too many people have electric cars the taxes will rocket.

Once everyone has smart meters in their homes the cost of electricity will vary by time of day to make it more expensive when you need it ( eat at odd hours and smart meters will have saved you money )

The disposal of batteries must surely be a pollution issue when they are common place?

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By *ineMan
over a year ago

In cave behind a waterfall on a hill

My car already has a battery.

It works really well...

Starts the engine

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

People who still think EVs are worse for the planet are the same people who complain about anything and everything just so they have their voice heard no matter how wrong they are

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think electric cars powered by hydrogen fuel cells is a better long term option. Hydrogen can be made by the electrolysis of water using wind or solar generated electricity, only problem is there's currently very few hydrogen filling stations & very few hydrogen fueled cars available. I'll stay with my diesel powered car untill such time as hydrogen is a viable alternative.

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By *iminey_cricketsMan
over a year ago

barbican

I’m working on the long distance issue for my masters and phd. It’s coming!

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By *heRazorsEdgeMan
over a year ago

Wales/ All over UK

"I think electric cars powered by hydrogen fuel cells is a better long term option. Hydrogen can be made by the electrolysis of water using wind or solar generated electricity, only problem is there's currently very few hydrogen filling stations & very few hydrogen fueled cars available. I'll stay with my diesel powered car untill such time as hydrogen is a viable alternative."

This is less efficient than just using the renewable generated electricity to charge an EV. Why introduce inherent losses into the system when it’s not required?

Hydrogen is not the answer

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By *iminey_cricketsMan
over a year ago

barbican

This is less efficient than just using the renewable generated electricity to charge an EV. Why introduce inherent losses into the system when it’s not required?

Hydrogen is not the answer "

It’s also insanely expensive to produce via electrolysis. Until we commercialise nuclear fusion it’s pointless .

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By *JB1954Man
over a year ago

Reading

Now retired, but worked as electrical engineer . During that time as part of study. Read a condensed report abort various energy supplies.

This was based on supply for Sheffield day and night.

Wind power not efficient due to , no wind = no power

Solar power , not enough sun hours in UK

Hydro electric . Where to build and cost. Sea?

Coal and gas running out .

Last was nuclear energy, not the safest , but at least most viable option.

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By *heRazorsEdgeMan
over a year ago

Wales/ All over UK

"Now retired, but worked as electrical engineer . During that time as part of study. Read a condensed report abort various energy supplies.

This was based on supply for Sheffield day and night.

Wind power not efficient due to , no wind = no power

Solar power , not enough sun hours in UK

Hydro electric . Where to build and cost. Sea?

Coal and gas running out .

Last was nuclear energy, not the safest , but at least most viable option.

How old was this report? Because in recent years the proportion of renewable sources has increased greatly, including many wind farms

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Now retired, but worked as electrical engineer . During that time as part of study. Read a condensed report abort various energy supplies.

This was based on supply for Sheffield day and night.

Wind power not efficient due to , no wind = no power

Solar power , not enough sun hours in UK

Hydro electric . Where to build and cost. Sea?

Coal and gas running out .

Last was nuclear energy, not the safest , but at least most viable option.

How old was this report? Because in recent years the proportion of renewable sources has increased greatly, including many wind farms"

See my comments further up

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By *JB1954Man
over a year ago

Reading

"Now retired, but worked as electrical engineer . During that time as part of study. Read a condensed report abort various energy supplies.

This was based on supply for Sheffield day and night.

Wind power not efficient due to , no wind = no power

Solar power , not enough sun hours in UK

Hydro electric . Where to build and cost. Sea?

Coal and gas running out .

Last was nuclear energy, not the safest , but at least most viable option.

How old was this report? Because in recent years the proportion of renewable sources has increased greatly, including many wind farms"

Yes a long while back. The point I was making. In 2017 wind power accounted for I think about 15% of power to homes. Not manufacturing. I also remember at some time late last year due to weather etc the national grid was worried that they could be overloaded. This due to be reliant on green energy. Coal and gas powered stations being offline.

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By *eoeclipseWoman
over a year ago

glasgow

"There will be nothing "green" about all the dead batteries. "

batteries get recycled & always have done as do most parts of the cars...they become at worst tins for your beans.

Most cars only have one or 2 batteries, electrics have lots and batteries typically don't last beyond 3 years and @ at least £150 per battery all that is going to happen is they continue the capital consumerism of new cars every 3 years.

Japan already has this culture which is why we (used to) get lots of high performance jap import which all have NOX cature systems as it's illegal in japan not to have them and has been since late 80's....UK only just thinks bout it now!!

They now largely go to the US as our MOT laws make lots of mods etc illegal these days...hence no more fast & furious car cruises....which will come back due to pandemic.

this year I am planning to make my car's hybrid's by making a hydrogen bubbler (mine are 25+ so could do with a hand these days) what this will do is create hydrogen, which will burn fuel faster and therefore cleaner, increasing performance and decreasing emissions.

Only thing is I'll need to converse with my MOT guy to find out if I need to do the old remove for mot & replace afterwards.

Cars can be adapted to run on steam, wood, h20, veg oil, hemp oil, salt water & hydrogen. really there is no reason to still be using fossil fuels other than the gov & industry are the same people...shareholders

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By *eoeclipseWoman
over a year ago

glasgow

"Estimates say an extra 15-20GW of power generation would be required if we went all electric.

Hinkley Point C will be be 3.3GW when that comes on line, still leaves us 12-17 GW short.

Also since your here, gas heating is due to be taken off the menu for new build houses soon, is the demand for that an issue?

removing gas from houses is stupid, what they really need to do is capture the methane from all of our asses and feed that back through...simples....but no one's gonna earn of that now are they so instead they want more structures they can call theirs & then sell to us, but no one owns the wind, sun, or sea regardless of what corps and gas think, those live beyond us.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Daft i know but I've seen an electric car being charged by petrol generator.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

UK mains gas for domestic and industrial use is going towards hydrogen, Northern Gas networks and Cadent are both going that way.

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By *aver999Couple
over a year ago

East Mids

"removing gas from houses is stupid, what they really need to do is capture the methane from all of our asses and feed that back through...simples....but no one's gonna earn of that now are they so instead they want more structures they can call theirs & then sell to us, but no one owns the wind, sun, or sea regardless of what corps and gas think, those live beyond us. "

Theres a large sewage works in Birmingham which is using biodigesters to produce methane that is added to the gas network, think it was enough for 28,000 houses.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Plenty of space for sex in a Tesla as no gearbox.

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By *eoeclipseWoman
over a year ago

glasgow

well the pertol genny just defeats the purpose [homer doh]

I don't know why hydrogen isn't more widely used it's piss easy to create.

a sealed container, distilled water, stainless steel and an electrical current and a pipe to source...viola hydrogen production.

water does need changed out every so often though as it loses it's hydrogen atoms obviously, leaving oxygen gas behind (think the sea needs some of that) or that could be again extracted out for medical use.

there is no way we should be living in a wasteful polluting world.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"UK mains gas for domestic and industrial use is going towards hydrogen, Northern Gas networks and Cadent are both going that way. "

A lot of uk power comes from gas, about 35-37%.

A lot of plants are starting to prepare for a hydrogen/gas mix.

Small peaking plant of 50MW or less are being built now capable of running on this, a few I'm working on.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"well the pertol genny just defeats the purpose [homer doh]

I don't know why hydrogen isn't more widely used it's piss easy to create.

a sealed container, distilled water, stainless steel and an electrical current and a pipe to source...viola hydrogen production.

there is no way we should be living in a wasteful polluting world."

Separating hydrogen from water is relatively simple but hugely energy intensive on an industrial scale, at the moment anyway

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By *ucka39Man
over a year ago

Newcastle

Option of gas and solar power so able to switch between and why not stick a generator in the boot job done

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"well the pertol genny just defeats the purpose [homer doh]

I don't know why hydrogen isn't more widely used it's piss easy to create.

a sealed container, distilled water, stainless steel and an electrical current and a pipe to source...viola hydrogen production.

there is no way we should be living in a wasteful polluting world.

Separating hydrogen from water is relatively simple but hugely energy intensive on an industrial scale, at the moment anyway"

Cadent and Northern Gas separate hydrogen from methane using steam. They are not cracking water. It’s much cheaper and is being tested at industrial levels now. The waste products go back into old gas fields

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Biggest con they better for the environment

Make the lithium batterys for 1 ev car is the same pollution as runing a Land Rover for 50 years none stop

They more harmful to the environment than petrol cars

You got a source for that?

Just google lithium mines and you see

You said it so why don’t you find the proof and link it. It’s not on us to prove your “facts”"

I'm guessing there isn't a source... I Googled it and not only does 'lithium mines' not bring up and credible sources the articles aren't close to the claim. Except the third search result : "Electric cars are still better for the environment. But lithium mining has some problems

Electric cars are inarguably better for the planet".

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"well the pertol genny just defeats the purpose [homer doh]

I don't know why hydrogen isn't more widely used it's piss easy to create.

a sealed container, distilled water, stainless steel and an electrical current and a pipe to source...viola hydrogen production.

there is no way we should be living in a wasteful polluting world.

Separating hydrogen from water is relatively simple but hugely energy intensive on an industrial scale, at the moment anyway

I know, steam reforming, about 60%+ efficient which is pretty damn good.

If it is to become a primary fuel source then cracking water will be needed to supply the required amount one day.

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

It's a fool's errand

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By *ornucopiaMan
over a year ago

Bexley

"..The government and mayor of London keep on about electric cars being the way forward..."

Am I the only one on here who does a very credible impression of a cash register every time the line

"To the Mayor of London and TFL, every journey matters"

is broadcast?

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By *eoeclipseWoman
over a year ago

glasgow

"well the pertol genny just defeats the purpose [homer doh]

I don't know why hydrogen isn't more widely used it's piss easy to create.

a sealed container, distilled water, stainless steel and an electrical current and a pipe to source...viola hydrogen production.

there is no way we should be living in a wasteful polluting world.

Separating hydrogen from water is relatively simple but hugely energy intensive on an industrial scale, at the moment anyway"

self sufficiency is the way forward, that way industrial scale operations are less needed.

wind turbine, vicious fan, alternator and some wire again simples, make your own...again can't cos of all the laws that prevent a person living self sufficiently so industry can gain.

I've seen solar panels and batteries made out of hemp ffs, fossil fuels as (much as I like my cars) are almost as dead as the dinosaurs that they came from & they have to be.

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

"We should be aware that the source of most of the elements required to make the batteries etc is third world countries where the extraction of said elements is far worse than your average jeans sweat shop in China etc. Also the political instability of many of these countries puts the supply chain at risk.

Quote from a 2020 report:

The report warns that supply disruptions may lead to tighter markets, higher prices and increased costs of car batteries, affecting the global transition to low-carbon electric mobility."

Article title: Demand for raw materials for electric car batteries set to rise further

From the UNCTAD (part of the United Nations)"

Fuck those tinpot countries.. I want a fast electric car and I want it now..

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By *eoeclipseWoman
over a year ago

glasgow

"well the pertol genny just defeats the purpose [homer doh]

I don't know why hydrogen isn't more widely used it's piss easy to create.

a sealed container, distilled water, stainless steel and an electrical current and a pipe to source...viola hydrogen production.

there is no way we should be living in a wasteful polluting world.

Separating hydrogen from water is relatively simple but hugely energy intensive on an industrial scale, at the moment anyway

I know, steam reforming, about 60%+ efficient which is pretty damn good.

If it is to become a primary fuel source then cracking water will be needed to supply the required amount one day. "

can't do steam from water, fresh water is finite resource and is depleting already, its just not viable or sustainable, which i suppose in some aspects also makes hydrogen a non starter too.

unless we take sea water and refine it to fresh water before hand.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"well the pertol genny just defeats the purpose [homer doh]

I don't know why hydrogen isn't more widely used it's piss easy to create.

a sealed container, distilled water, stainless steel and an electrical current and a pipe to source...viola hydrogen production.

there is no way we should be living in a wasteful polluting world.

Separating hydrogen from water is relatively simple but hugely energy intensive on an industrial scale, at the moment anyway

I know, steam reforming, about 60%+ efficient which is pretty damn good.

If it is to become a primary fuel source then cracking water will be needed to supply the required amount one day.

can't do steam from water, fresh water is finite resource and is depleting already, its just not viable or sustainable, which i suppose in some aspects also makes hydrogen a non starter too.

unless we take sea water and refine it to fresh water before hand."

You don’t need to desalinate the water before cracking it. Sea water is fine.

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By *ornucopiaMan
over a year ago

Bexley

"...

I can't see commercial/agricultural/military vehicles going electric in my lifetime so fossil fuels are going to be around for a while yet."

Doesn't even have to be fossil fuel in some cases.

My Mazda Bongo diesel runs very well on r@peseed oil. 80p per litre in the right supermarkets.

They should still be selling cooking oil in 2029, although probably not for 80p a litre by then. Unfortunately 'the old girl' is unlikely to survive that long. even less likely me!

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By *eoeclipseWoman
over a year ago

glasgow

"Biggest con they better for the environment

Make the lithium batterys for 1 ev car is the same pollution as runing a Land Rover for 50 years none stop

They more harmful to the environment than petrol cars

You got a source for that?

Just google lithium mines and you see

You said it so why don’t you find the proof and link it. It’s not on us to prove your “facts”

Electric cars are inarguably better for the planet". "

BTW not allowed to post links from most, it'll get you banned.

they cannot possibly be better for the planet when we need to rip up huge areas of bio diverse landscapes to get to these minerals, all that biodiversity loss is what brings things like Covid about due to animals having no where else to be but near humans through no choice of their own.

you know the same way rainforests are shouted about, it affects THE climate meaning ALL of our climate and ALL of us. we can keep on ripping up the earth but it'll just cause more pandemics, along with famines and wars.

the opportunity cost is not worth it, not this time and not now.

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By *eoeclipseWoman
over a year ago

glasgow

"...

I can't see commercial/agricultural/military vehicles going electric in my lifetime so fossil fuels are going to be around for a while yet.

Doesn't even have to be fossil fuel in some cases.

My Mazda Bongo diesel runs very well on r@peseed oil. 80p per litre in the right supermarkets.

They should still be selling cooking oil in 2029, although probably not for 80p a litre by then. Unfortunately 'the old girl' is unlikely to survive that long. even less likely me!"

exactly, if you look a log book what we call deisel's are classed as heavy oil, any oil most will run on, filter changes and seal changes are more frequent though, heat exchanger sometimes too.

mine are 25+ so no reason it can't be

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By *ornucopiaMan
over a year ago

Bexley

"... I want a fast electric car and I want it now.."

I want a useful, spacious, versatile and easy to work on car far more than a fast one, regardless of what fuel it runs on.

..and I certainly don't want it to take ages to refuel/charge up.

Unfortunately I've got a feeling I'm in a minority market. The current mass market is totally skewed towards image rather than functionality. What a sad progression.

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By *laymateteeMan
over a year ago

bristol

"Also while we are on the subject one thing I never see people discuss is the road tax.

That's why they want to change the road tax to pay as you drive which will be really expensive if you do long journeys

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By *eoeclipseWoman
over a year ago

glasgow

the road tax as per you drive would make mine soooo much cheaper as i'm on the 'by engine size' rates (tho they prob wont include mine as per usual)

I actually drive very little, spend most time tinkering lol none of my cars which are all 25+ have any more than 135k on the clock, most of which was there before I got them, easily offset with some trees for full lives of emissions.

It makes sense to me that those who drive more, pollute more and cause more wear to the roads should pay more. The amount of potholes caused by buses and lorries is unreal and they aren't little holes either.

It encourages people to return to live and work locally and to become more community driven which is more sustainable and helps to encourage local produce and self sufficiency.

put it this way never bought a car for more than 1.5k and never spent anywhere near the price of a new car to fix any of them (quite a bit of time though as i do all my own repairs and fabrications), never mind adding in the finance costs...so who's the mug really? those who keep old cars that look a little outdated going or those who buy/lease new every 3 years, which also produces alot more pollutants and material resourcing damage (land strips etc) in full vehicle manufacture than repair parts do. there is only so many that get actually wrote off in any year, so it is only those that need to be replaced not them all.

(I mean fully unrepairable not just repairs worth more than stupid blue book).

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By *xtrafun4youMan
over a year ago

Dunstable

[Removed by poster at 28/03/21 04:38:05]

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By *xtrafun4youMan
over a year ago

Dunstable

"Not sure this is what you were looking for.

Boring as fuck to drive.

I've driven Tesla models 3 sport, quick yes but completely soulless, I'll stick to my 2 v8's thanks."
Spot on. I have been installing large car chargers in fule garages they have been so problematic. Fasted ones I have seen are half hour to charge 75%.

Who want to wait that long to do 200 miles I. Best scenario. I'll stick to my van that does 500 miles to a 5 minute fill up. And yes we only have 1 electric car on our fleet. Go figure.

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By *laymateteeMan
over a year ago

bristol

"the road tax as per you drive would make mine soooo much cheaper as i'm on the 'by engine size' rates (tho they prob wont include mine as per usual)

It encourages people to return to live and work locally and to become more community driven which is more sustainable and helps to encourage local produce and self sufficiency.

(I mean fully unrepairable not just repairs worth more than stupid blue book)."

So what happens to those of us whose work requires us to drive more a 100 miles a day sometimes? Not every one can work locally and become more community driven which is more sustainable and helps to encourage local produce and self sufficiency, this is not the stone age where one can survive by living in their village and not travel far. How about visiting family member that live far from you?

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By *roticusCouple
over a year ago

Porthmadog

We can't carry on burning fossil fuel. The earth is in a bad state and personally I don't want to hand it over wrecked beyond repair to the next generation. An electric car is part of the move towards a greener lifestyle, and has some interesting possibilities in terms of smoothing power demand and making better use of renewables too.

My personal aim to to become Carbon Negative and Climate Positive; in addition to replanting my forest I'm looking at putting a 20kw hydro plant into my property.

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By *isfits behaving badlyCouple
over a year ago

Coventry

I have every faith in electric motors. Just sort out the batteries, recharge times, access to affordable charging points and the price of a car (or more when access to affordable quality used electric cars is available) then I'm in. Granted I suspect that won't be for many years yet.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm not against the concept of electric vehicles. I just cannot see either BEVs or FCEVs being viable by 2030 for lots of the reasons already stated above. Even if they were in the UK, we are one pissy little island. What about the rest of the planet. I can't see the Third World chopping in their 30 yr old Toyota HiLux and Mercedes for a Tesla?

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By *arakiss12TV/TS
over a year ago

Bedford

Driving to work in minus 5 degrees one cold Sunday morning, all I kept seeing is toyota Prius broken down on the motorway. 5 of them 1 in town.

I'll stick to my petrol car.

Thinking about getting a classic ford, miss the look of the older cars.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Personally i think diesels willbe taxed to death, my line of work is in this area and can honestly say battery technology is coming on leaps and bounds, however hybrid is the answer.

Im a absolute petrol head but..

Ive personally run a electric car for 5 years, i ran over 200,000 miles on it derby to london (138 miles daily) it was brilliant, however ive gone back to a v8 pickup truck ford f150 for work (needing more space and refusal to buy a diesel again) however when ford release a electric pickup truck ill be having one.

Pro's- everything

Cons- cost to buy, lack of driver experience its more on/off power... however theres bags of power

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By *eoeclipseWoman
over a year ago

glasgow

"the road tax as per you drive would make mine soooo much cheaper as i'm on the 'by engine size' rates (tho they prob wont include mine as per usual)

It encourages people to return to live and work locally and to become more community driven which is more sustainable and helps to encourage local produce and self sufficiency.

(I mean fully unrepairable not just repairs worth more than stupid blue book).

Stone age! really! you do get these advances to be able to do that amount of travel daily are VERY recent in history not even 200 year old!! most of which is under 100 years old! hence why its been human driven climate change.

in my opinion you shouldn't be travelling 100 miles per day to go to work! that is just rat race daft to spend all that time travelling for a job because it has more money than a local one so you can pay for the house that your never in and all the gadgets and gismos that your never really use!! come on!

as for far away relatives well most of mine are all over the Atlantic, think i gonna be flying back & forth to there every other week, hmm no.

my sis is 400 odd mile away, my dad 200 so no I don't see family every day, every week or even every month. haven't seen my sis for 4 years! Atlantic side of family for 10, my dad I see typically every quarter and that's only if I can afford to.

at no point did I say anything about not having family visits, that's obvious and has always happened through history, things like harvest and solstice, religious festivals etc those are where and when folk used to get together if they lived far away, which they didn't because the family were also often part of the same community and if they are not this is where the family is blood thing comes in, because I don't actually know my relatives across the Atlantic that well but I could rock up at their door anytime without warning and be accepted in.

and to the guy who mentioned 3rd world countries giving up hiluxs....not a chance, 25 mine is & still going...in deisel terms its not even broken in yet, there is no feasible reason to upgrade really, easy to fix, runs on any oil, tough

couldn't pull me out of bed though.

however, I do offset by planting and recycling/reuse etc. which tbh isn't a hard thing to do, I try to be a neutral or carbon negative as possible.

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman
over a year ago

King's Crustacean

"The best way forward is one car per house it's a win win all the way,to many cars on the road!"

Unworkable

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By *orny IrishMan
over a year ago

Rural Wiltshire

The infrastructure is not in place yet. There is no standardised charging. No regulation o how much charger companies can charge. How they charge and connect is different from car maker to car maker.

As had been said for those inner city with terrace houses and no off-street parking charging at home is difficult. A lot needs to be done before more people are willing to adopt it. I have seen photos of people with cables running from their houses to cars to charge. How long before some one trips over the cable and sues the car owner?

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By *orny IrishMan
over a year ago

Rural Wiltshire

"Estimates say an extra 15-20GW of power generation would be required if we went all electric.

Hinkley Point C will be be 3.3GW when that comes on line, still leaves us 12-17 GW short.

Interesting as fuck!!

Where do you think we will see the biggest issue in reaching that capacity? Where’s the biggest bottle necks?

Time

The speed at which we can build them, the planning permission and environmental permits.

Takes 2-3 years to build a small 10-20MW energy from waste plant, another 2 years or so before that of permitting and planning consent etc.

We are also losing West Burton A and Ratcliffe on Soar both 2GW coal plant, so that's another 4GW we have to replace.

Just cant build them quick enough

You got an interesting job!

So what’s the solution here? Just a slower roll out of electric cars?

To stop pissing about with all these fake 'green renewable' solutions and build nuclear power stations

I don't disagree with this, I do a bit for Hinkley Point C and love it.

Unfortunately funding and the tree huggers are the biggest obstacle.

That and they can take 7 years or so to get to the point of hanover and operation.

Tree huggers were on the money. Deforestation is one of the single biggest contributors to am increase in CO2 in the environment. If we planted more trees we would improve the environment and slow global warming. It needs to.be a multipronged approach. Not just green energy but landscape conservation. The earth needs to.have a balance.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"well the pertol genny just defeats the purpose [homer doh]

I don't know why hydrogen isn't more widely used it's piss easy to create.

a sealed container, distilled water, stainless steel and an electrical current and a pipe to source...viola hydrogen production.

there is no way we should be living in a wasteful polluting world."

I think hydrogen is the future.. EBV are the interim

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By *orny IrishMan
over a year ago

Rural Wiltshire

"well the pertol genny just defeats the purpose [homer doh]

I don't know why hydrogen isn't more widely used it's piss easy to create.

a sealed container, distilled water, stainless steel and an electrical current and a pipe to source...viola hydrogen production.

there is no way we should be living in a wasteful polluting world.

I think hydrogen is the future.. EBV are the interim"

Hydrogen still needs a shed load of electricity and then the storage and infrastructure needs to be in place. I don't think it is as good as it looks. If it was better then more OEM's would be doing it.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

I'm gonna just get a horse and cart, I think. Easy wheelchair access to the cart, can stick the child and Mr KC in there too, and no need to worry about manual transmission. Well, not in the same way as cars

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By *eoeclipseWoman
over a year ago

glasgow

"Estimates say an extra 15-20GW of power generation would be required if we went all electric.

Hinkley Point C will be be 3.3GW when that comes on line, still leaves us 12-17 GW short.

Interesting as fuck!!

Where do you think we will see the biggest issue in reaching that capacity? Where’s the biggest bottle necks?

Time

The speed at which we can build them, the planning permission and environmental permits.

Takes 2-3 years to build a small 10-20MW energy from waste plant, another 2 years or so before that of permitting and planning consent etc.

We are also losing West Burton A and Ratcliffe on Soar both 2GW coal plant, so that's another 4GW we have to replace.

Just cant build them quick enough

You got an interesting job!

So what’s the solution here? Just a slower roll out of electric cars?

To stop pissing about with all these fake 'green renewable' solutions and build nuclear power stations

I don't disagree with this, I do a bit for Hinkley Point C and love it.

Unfortunately funding and the tree huggers are the biggest obstacle.

That and they can take 7 years or so to get to the point of hanover and operation.

nuclear power plants when they go wrong go massively wrong as we know, this is why we don't use them...my opinion anything nuclear shouldn't be allowed the risks and devastation are too much and its not just for that one incident that is for centuries or more!

you've literally turned the planet to a bomb by having world power by nuclear....just no.

we are going to need to look at ourselves and how we use all resources and cut down drastically, it just can't keep increasing like it has for the past 200+ years, that's purely based on greed not what is needed to live and have a happy life, unless you trying to say anyone in history who lived a simpler life couldn't possibly be happy without all the tech we have today.

life was harder sure, but it's the people and connections that make it either pleasant or horrible. I doubt indigenous tribes think their way of life is horrible (except what the outside world are doing to the environment, that they hate & that for things for us...your greed, my greed, our greed.)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"well the pertol genny just defeats the purpose [homer doh]

I don't know why hydrogen isn't more widely used it's piss easy to create.

a sealed container, distilled water, stainless steel and an electrical current and a pipe to source...viola hydrogen production.

there is no way we should be living in a wasteful polluting world.

I think hydrogen is the future.. EBV are the interim"

Hydrogen really isnt. We've spent years trial/testin hydrogen. Instability/reliability are the main issues.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

"well the pertol genny just defeats the purpose [homer doh]

I don't know why hydrogen isn't more widely used it's piss easy to create.

a sealed container, distilled water, stainless steel and an electrical current and a pipe to source...viola hydrogen production.

there is no way we should be living in a wasteful polluting world.

I think hydrogen is the future.. EBV are the interim

Hydrogen really isnt. We've spent years trial/testin hydrogen. Instability/reliability are the main issues.

Hydrogen is jolly reactive/explosive, yes indeed. Much more volatile than petroleum products.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Estimates say an extra 15-20GW of power generation would be required if we went all electric.

Hinkley Point C will be be 3.3GW when that comes on line, still leaves us 12-17 GW short.

Interesting as fuck!!

Where do you think we will see the biggest issue in reaching that capacity? Where’s the biggest bottle necks?

Time

The speed at which we can build them, the planning permission and environmental permits.

Takes 2-3 years to build a small 10-20MW energy from waste plant, another 2 years or so before that of permitting and planning consent etc.

We are also losing West Burton A and Ratcliffe on Soar both 2GW coal plant, so that's another 4GW we have to replace.

Just cant build them quick enough

You got an interesting job!

So what’s the solution here? Just a slower roll out of electric cars?

To stop pissing about with all these fake 'green renewable' solutions and build nuclear power stations

I don't disagree with this, I do a bit for Hinkley Point C and love it.

Unfortunately funding and the tree huggers are the biggest obstacle.

That and they can take 7 years or so to get to the point of hanover and operation.

you've literally turned the planet to a bomb by having world power by nuclear....just no.

Theres only been 2 major nuclear accidents since the start of commercial operations in 1954.

2 accidents for a combined total of nearly 20,000 years equivalent operating hours for all plant worldwide. That's pretty safe.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

In the local town (whitstable) there is street upon street of terrace houses where you out the door onto the pavement then the road. Cars are parked bumper to bumper and if you have two or more cars getting outside your own home with both is as likely to happen as spotting a unicorn.

How are the charge points going to work here? At night if someone is walking along the path are they going to have to step over countless charge leads, there’s the personal injury to consider regards home insurance if someone should trip over your lead.

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

"There will be nothing "green" about all the dead batteries. "
the cobalt used in batteries in the Tesla is mined in the Congo who use up to 35,000 children in the mining process.

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By *layfullsamMan
over a year ago

Solihull

Did you see that guy who bought a 30000 electric tesla lookalike sports car from china and they shipped a 2 seater smart car type thing.

More money than sense comes to mind

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By *eoeclipseWoman
over a year ago

glasgow

"In the local town (whitstable) there is street upon street of terrace houses where you out the door onto the pavement then the road. Cars are parked bumper to bumper and if you have two or more cars getting outside your own home with both is as likely to happen as spotting a unicorn.

we'd have to go back to looking where your going, instead of suing for everything (a lot is exaggerated, obviously not all.)

as for the nuclear power plants, I get there has only been 2 accidents but those are also large scale disasters when they do happen that have global consequences, they are not limited to a local area.

and the waste...where is all that going to go, it can't just be dumped nor can it be just left, it needs cared for or there is a further disaster... do I ask the same about the windmill arms that are currently being buried and not repurposed, repaired of recycled. [clearly never learn]

there is already babies being born with microplastics in them with what just more than 100 years of use of the stuff.

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By *eoeclipseWoman
over a year ago

glasgow

"There will be nothing "green" about all the dead batteries. the cobalt used in batteries in the Tesla is mined in the Congo who use up to 35,000 children in the mining process. "

the sulphur which is used with rubber to give it better flex, that is toxic stuff and the conditions horrific, die young of many cancers in those communities. and ever car/vehicle regardless of fuel type uses rubber and sulphur on many components and hard to recycle, the amount of tyres dumped that are supposed to get recycled is nuts!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

In years to come people will be looking back at the price of petrol and thinking it was cheap once everyone is forced to electric.

Then you'll get fucked by taxes, charging costs and having to pay a lot to dispose of the thing because of the battery.

Energy and recycling companies are rubbing their hands together with glee.

Wasn't long ago we were told to buy diesel. It's all a money making con.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

we'd have to go back to looking where your going, instead of suing for everything (a lot is exaggerated, obviously not all.)

there is already babies being born with microplastics in them with what just more than 100 years of use of the stuff."

A typical 1GW power station produces about 20-30 tons of radioactive waste per year, or about 4 cubic meters, its fuck all in the grand scheme of things. A 25 year station life is 100 cubic meters, absolutely nothing in the grand a scheme of things.

Its stored in purpose made ponds or dry casks until it is safe to be repurposed or stored elsewhere.

Overall risk is minimal.

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

"There will be nothing "green" about all the dead batteries. the cobalt used in batteries in the Tesla is mined in the Congo who use up to 35,000 children in the mining process.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"There will be nothing "green" about all the dead batteries. the cobalt used in batteries in the Tesla is mined in the Congo who use up to 35,000 children in the mining process.

Plus deep ocean mining yep that’ll work , pretty much knackered the surface of earth so might as well ruin it under underneath as well

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

We’re fucked

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Someone posted about lithium ion batteries not being recyclable I can't find the post but 96 %of lithium ion batteries can be recycled, and also this When the battery packs in a lithium-ion-powered vehicle are deemed too worn out for driving, they still have up to 80 percent of their charge left. So before they ever get to a recycling center, these batteries are used to prop up the grid, especially alongside energy sources that may not be quite as steady, like wind or solar power. The batteries can store power to help the flow of electricity stay on an even keel rather than ebb and flow with the weather.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

Great, another thing for wheelchair users to navigate

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"We’re fucked

Yep

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By *laymateteeMan
over a year ago

bristol

"the road tax as per you drive would make mine soooo much cheaper as i'm on the 'by engine size' rates (tho they prob wont include mine as per usual)

It encourages people to return to live and work locally and to become more community driven which is more sustainable and helps to encourage local produce and self sufficiency.

(I mean fully unrepairable not just repairs worth more than stupid blue book).

as for far away relatives well most of mine are all over the Atlantic, think i gonna be flying back & forth to there every other week, hmm no.

couldn't pull me out of bed though.

however, I do offset by planting and recycling/reuse etc. which tbh isn't a hard thing to do, I try to be a neutral or carbon negative as possible. "

Good thing you said in your opinion coz you don't know what type of work I do . And this works well for you coz you don't have to drive to vist your family, not everyone is in the same situation as you

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Wait for hydrogen cell cars.....2-3 years then switch from Combustion engine

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By *ickeyblueeyes7Man
over a year ago

newport

There is nothing green about mining for lithium to use in batteries, to get just one tonn of lithium it needs 500,000 gallons of water which causes drought and famine to the community’s which a near to these mines that’s not even starting on the pollution these mines cause

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By *aptainhornpipeMan
over a year ago

manchester

"There is nothing green about mining for lithium to use in batteries, to get just one tonn of lithium it needs 500,000 gallons of water which causes drought and famine to the community’s which a near to these mines that’s not even starting on the pollution these mines cause "

Quite a lot of effort is going into developing lithium free batteries, these will only gone a few years away.

Regardless of this most people don’t have a problem with battery ethics when it comes to using their smart phones. Funny how it’s always raised as an issue when there is an EV discussion

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Lithium isn’t very eco friendly to mine but at least so far we haven’t had any wars over it (yet...). I have always had petrol cars and I love driving them but my next one will be a Tesla for a couple of reasons. Firstly London has gone to war on non-electric cars with the congestion charge and higher parking in some areas. Secondly, Tesla has killed the competition in terms of tech and upgradability/programmability. I am a Mercedes guy and the Merc EV has the usual high end finish inside but the tech is basic compared to the model X.

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By *ickeyblueeyes7Man
over a year ago

newport

Quite a lot of effort is going into developing lithium free batteries, these will only gone a few years away.

Regardless of this most people don’t have a problem with battery ethics when it comes to using their smart phones. Funny how it’s always raised as an issue when there is an EV discussion "
Electric vehicles are not the future only a short term fix till they develop something else, as mentioned in other posts millions of people live in terraced houses so will not be able to charge their vehicles etc. It’s all a con again only ten years or so ago we were told to buy diesel as that was the future now looks what happened to that

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By *ickeyblueeyes7Man
over a year ago

newport

"Lithium isn’t very eco friendly to mine but at least so far we haven’t had any wars over it (yet...). I have always had petrol cars and I love driving them but my next one will be a Tesla for a couple of reasons. Firstly London has gone to war on non-electric cars with the congestion charge and higher parking in some areas. Secondly, Tesla has killed the competition in terms of tech and upgradability/programmability. I am a Mercedes guy and the Merc EV has the usual high end finish inside but the tech is basic compared to the model X. "

Agree with you there about London going to war on petrol/diesel cars. They bought in residents parking permits in the borough I used to live in. It was £35 for a year for my vehicle and another £35 for my wife’s car that’s fair enough but because we had diesel cars had to pay another £78 each on top again so what the hell has that extra charge got to do with parking just ripping us off as we had diesel cars and impossible to buy electric as lived in terrace house with no means of charging safely. I’m glad I moved out of the area to a house with a drive with parking for 4 cars doubt I’d get an electric car for my next vehicle tho

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By *aptainhornpipeMan
over a year ago

manchester

Quite a lot of effort is going into developing lithium free batteries, these will only gone a few years away.

Regardless of this most people don’t have a problem with battery ethics when it comes to using their smart phones. Funny how it’s always raised as an issue when there is an EV discussion Electric vehicles are not the future only a short term fix till they develop something else, as mentioned in other posts millions of people live in terraced houses so will not be able to charge their vehicles etc. It’s all a con again only ten years or so ago we were told to buy diesel as that was the future now looks what happened to that "

I’m interested to know what actually is the future if it isn’t electric vehicles. EVs are 77% efficient compared to petrol engined cars which are 12%. Electric motors are a massive improvement on internal combustion engines being lighter, more powerful and more efficient. As well as being simpler to maintain. Getting the electricity to them is the problem and the entire world is working on that. 15 years from now people will wonder why anyone put up with a petrol engine spewing out poisonous gasses. Much like people these days wonder at why people put up with horses shitting everywhere.

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By *AABMan
over a year ago

Not far

I work for an electric vehicle manufacturer. EVs are the future. Battery technology has developed at an extraordinary pace in the last ten years and the cost of energy per kg has fallen by a factor of 3 or more since the early EVs. In three years the cost of an EV will match a petrol or diesel and cost a fraction to run. Think of how often your petrol or diesel needs a service, oil and filters, plugs, air filters, fuel filters, ad blue top ups, all that servicing is gone with an EV as there’s nothing to service except wipers and a pollen filter. Tesla are almost ready with a million mile battery, which compares to a design life of a petrol engine of 150,000 miles. VW, Audi, Mercedes, and others have scrapped all new petrol and Diesel engine developments as there’s simply no future for them. Batteries also have a second life in energy storage and several companies are developing recycling processes. With vehicle to grid all that excess renewable energy generation can be stored in cars and a typical car battery could run your house for a few days. Some energy companies will pay you to use off-peak excess renewable electricity so you could occasionally charge your car for no cost. When comparing life time CO2 emissions of a petrol car against an EV we have to consider the oil well to car CO2 emissions as well. An oil refinery consumes as much electricity as two medium sized U.K. cities and that electricity comes from burning coal. Oil is transported by tankers burning bunker fuel which is a thick tar like gunk left over from the oil refining process that has no other use whatsoever. It’s so polluting that it’s never used to power that tankers anywhere near a port. Charging is still an issue of course but there are companies looking to roll out chargers integrated in to street lights for areas without off street parking. Newer electric vehicles with 800v systems can charge from 10-80% in 20 minutes which will give 300 miles of driving. EVs are the future and they are brilliant.

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By *icolerobbieCouple
over a year ago

walsall

"I work for an electric vehicle manufacturer. EVs are the future. Battery technology has developed at an extraordinary pace in the last ten years and the cost of energy per kg has fallen by a factor of 3 or more since the early EVs. In three years the cost of an EV will match a petrol or diesel and cost a fraction to run. Think of how often your petrol or diesel needs a service, oil and filters, plugs, air filters, fuel filters, ad blue top ups, all that servicing is gone with an EV as there’s nothing to service except wipers and a pollen filter. Tesla are almost ready with a million mile battery, which compares to a design life of a petrol engine of 150,000 miles. VW, Audi, Mercedes, and others have scrapped all new petrol and Diesel engine developments as there’s simply no future for them. Batteries also have a second life in energy storage and several companies are developing recycling processes. With vehicle to grid all that excess renewable energy generation can be stored in cars and a typical car battery could run your house for a few days. Some energy companies will pay you to use off-peak excess renewable electricity so you could occasionally charge your car for no cost. When comparing life time CO2 emissions of a petrol car against an EV we have to consider the oil well to car CO2 emissions as well. An oil refinery consumes as much electricity as two medium sized U.K. cities and that electricity comes from burning coal. Oil is transported by tankers burning bunker fuel which is a thick tar like gunk left over from the oil refining process that has no other use whatsoever. It’s so polluting that it’s never used to power that tankers anywhere near a port. Charging is still an issue of course but there are companies looking to roll out chargers integrated in to street lights for areas without off street parking. Newer electric vehicles with 800v systems can charge from 10-80% in 20 minutes which will give 300 miles of driving. EVs are the future and they are brilliant."

Yes, they are the future. But they are not the “now”.

Keep up the good work though.

When I can get one that will do 600 miles in one go and recharge in the time it takes to fill a convention file tank and costs the same as a Passat diesel, I’ll get one.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

How about steam? Fred Dibnah (Google him up) had the answer! Big dirty n dangerous steam engines are the future

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By *lan157Man
over a year ago

a village near Haywards Heath in East Sussex

what's the warranty length or mileage limit of this "Million mile battery "?

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By *AABMan
over a year ago

Not far

what's the warranty length or mileage limit of this "Million mile battery "? "

Who knows what Tesla will offer, but a million miles though.....

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By *.R.MMan
over a year ago

Norfolk

I think electric cars will be overtaken by hydrogen within 25 years

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By *ornucopiaMan
over a year ago

Bexley

"I think electric cars will be overtaken by hydrogen within 25 years "

I suspect that the hydrogen cars will need to have electric motors so more likely some form of hybrid involving a hydrogen fuel cell if nothing safer emerges by then.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Won't work here. Infrastructure too big.

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