FabSwingers.com forum: Transgender Women in Sports. Is it Fair?

By *angbangFantasy OP Woman
over a year ago

London

So the USA have introduced legislation to ban transgender girls and women to participate in female sports on the basis of protecting biological girls and women in an industry that is already biased in favour of men.

Women's sports doesn't have the same coverage, financial support and backing that their male counterparts have.

And the reasoning for the legislation is because transwomen are biologically male and things like testosterone, skeletal and heart structure are different than biological women, which in turn would likely lead to an unfair advantage to the trans women.

Do you agree with the banning of trans women in female sports?

I'm conflicted on the idea personally.

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By *inkerbell67Woman
over a year ago

Clacton on sea essex

Trangender women were born men so they will be physically stronger and faster than a woman so in a way yes they shouldn't be aloud ...

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By *og-ManMan
over a year ago

somewhere

"Trangender women were born men so they will be physically stronger and faster than a woman so in a way yes they shouldn't be aloud ..."

Agreed to be honest...its not fair

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By *inegarStrokesMan
over a year ago

Uxbridge

The issue is there are female born athletes that have trained their whole lives losing places to represent their country and national competition to a transgender woman who’s taken hormones for 6 months and decided to take up running. They’ve already been through puberty and so have a huge advantage.

I would favour a separate category for trans people but unfortunately a lot of them think it’s denying them the opportunity to race as their “true” gender.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The issue is there are female born athletes that have trained their whole lives losing places to represent their country and national competition to a transgender woman who’s taken hormones for 6 months and decided to take up running. They’ve already been through puberty and so have a huge advantage.

I would favour a separate category for trans people but unfortunately a lot of them think it’s denying them the opportunity to race as their “true” gender. "

Totally agree with this

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yeah, I agree. I'm not clued up on the intricacies of the hormone levels of trans women that would allow them to compete with cis women but I imagine there isn't enough similarities to allow them to do that. After all, it would be experts that have determined this.

Other than perhaps a competition exclusive for trans people, I'm not sure what the solution would be.

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By *acavityMan
over a year ago

Redditch

I think it is a divisive tactic, to generally attack trans people.

I don't think it is actually a major issue for republicans.

Yes, a trans woman might have physical advantages, but how many are there in professional sports?

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By *inegarStrokesMan
over a year ago

Uxbridge

Not at all is it an attack on trans people. It’s a real issue in women’s sport. A growing issue too.

To say it isn’t an issue would just be simply ignoring it.

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By *am_xxTV/TS
over a year ago

London

This is a really tough one

I think everyone has the right to participate in competitive sport, however, i believe trans athletes have an advantage over women.

I'm big on trans rights but sport is the one area I can't see a fair solution for all.

I think it will continue to become a hot topic but hopefully we will end up at a solution that all get to compete fairly.

Whether that's a trans catagry or a deficit in their time.

The end goal is everyone gets to compete on a fair playing field.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Surely they could create a TS category in Para sports. If they have categories for men without legs and arms ...why not one for men without dicks?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Could they not have a trans sports to compete against other trans people in their own right, would that not be fairer and yet still inclusive so trans sportspeople aren't excluded?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

To me it should be about testosterone levels and so on.

If the athlete could prove through testing that they could achieve similar levels to those born women then there should be no problem in competing should there?

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By *inaTitzTV/TS
over a year ago

Titz Towers, North Notts

This is often used as a way of attacking trans people and of saying that they aren't really women. Considering the huge number of sporting events, participants and different sports, it really is a tiny issue.

Beth Jones of Loughborough Uni wrote a paper going into the whole thing and found that there wasn't a lot of substance to it and it had been blown out of all proportion.

Those people saying it is unfair don't seem to give a damn about other factors that could give someone an advantage, like coming from a rich privileged background, a first world country, having pushy parents, high tech training facilities, etc.

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By *inaTitzTV/TS
over a year ago

Titz Towers, North Notts

"Could they not have a trans sports to compete against other trans people in their own right, would that not be fairer and yet still inclusive so trans sportspeople aren't excluded? "

Sounds a bit like separate but equal. Being pushed off into their own thing, out of the way of others.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

as a trans woman , I am not sure I would feel fair competing with a non trans woman .. even though taking hormones for years will reduce testosterone . Obviously depends on sport as well, stuff like archery/shooting/golf etc low threshold sports then it is not an issue as its skill based .

there is so many variables within trans that need to be addressed first .. are they talking Pre Op/ Post OP, they are vastly different in testosterone/bone mass/muscle mass, hormonal level/emotive function / energy levels generally even ones on heavy hormones ... then there is the height to weight vs the non trans female ,

Then you have the issue you couldnt put someone like me in say with men as I would be outclassed by them to my height/weight ..

The problem is I see Trans people are such a small minority that having trans only events,

1 - the talent pool is minsicule .

2 - very few people would probably watch it when compared to non trans people ... this will have issue with the money machine for setting up an event based around this .

Probably going forward the best way is to do thorough levels testings and that Trans people have to be within the limit ...

then there is the adverse issues that trans people can have from medication for years that could put them at a risk others don't have in sports perhaps, I think there really hasnt been anywhere long enough research/studies into this yet .. maybe in about 10 years the data will be there ... thats if the world hasn't gone full flip on trans people by then .

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

I am a cis woman but I bet my testosterone levels are higher than most other cos women thanks to the wonderful condition called pcos.

When hormone levels vary so greatly in the cis population it seems bloody ridiculous banning transgender athletes from taking part.

Are they banning transgender men from competing in male sports?

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By *inegarStrokesMan
over a year ago

Uxbridge

I think it is unfair.

I do care about those other issues but a sport is not always going to be suitable for everyone. How many NBA stars do you see that are 5 foot 5? How many top of their game Jockeys are 7 foot? How many Jamaicans enter skiing competitions?

Where do you stop with this idea that every single sport should be available to everyone?

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

"I think it is unfair.

Where do you stop with this idea that every single sport should be available to everyone? "

But those aren't comparable restrictions are they. Trans women (as this is specifically about) fight to be seen as women in all aspects of life but now America is saying ah.... All aspects except..... How is that right?

There was a South African sprinter who's gender was questioned over and over and over in recent years and had numerous tests to prove her gender etc. She was a cis gendered woman with naturally high testosterone. It happens.

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By *inaTitzTV/TS
over a year ago

Titz Towers, North Notts

"I think it is unfair.

Where do you stop with this idea that every single sport should be available to everyone? "

No one is saying that any of the competitors in those sports have an unfair advantage due to their height.

That study by Loughborough Uni showed that there was little discernible advantage to trans athletes.

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By *tephTV67TV/TS
over a year ago

Cheshire

"Surely they could create a TS category in Para sports. If they have categories for men without legs and arms ...why not one for men without dicks? "

Men without dicks

Do you mean trans women ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think it is unfair.

Where do you stop with this idea that every single sport should be available to everyone?

No one is saying that any of the competitors in those sports have an unfair advantage due to their height.

That study by Loughborough Uni showed that there was little discernible advantage to trans athletes. "

thats not really going to help young sports at uni/schools .. in usa this is what alot of the stats are kicking off over , the biological advantage is present at this group ... because some one identifies and chooses to change gender ... as minors it takes years before they can start treatments .. so this puts them at odds with the others ..

in regards to adults then we are in a more debatable area as you are then in the realms of tests/ how far transitioned ...

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

I agree with Tina and her Nottingham Castle sized tits.

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By *inaTitzTV/TS
over a year ago

Titz Towers, North Notts

"I agree with Tina and her Nottingham Castle sized tits. "

That's because you are very sensible and have good taste xxx

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By *inegarStrokesMan
over a year ago

Uxbridge

" No one is saying that any of the competitors in those sports have an unfair advantage due to their height.

That study by Loughborough Uni showed that there was little discernible advantage to trans athletes. "

Height can be an advantage though. Men are more likely to be taller than women. So if a trans woman who’s 6ft plus and has been through puberty races in the hurdles against a group of average women in that sport then they will have an advantage due to their height and going through male puberty.

I’m not trying to stop trans people from taking part in sport I just think they need to compete on level playing grounds.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Surely they could create a TS category in Para sports. If they have categories for men without legs and arms ...why not one for men without dicks?

Men without dicks

Do you mean trans women ? "

I am glad someone else picked up on this x

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By *inegarStrokesMan
over a year ago

Uxbridge

Sorry I was replying to the other point that Tina made about people having raining facilities or coming from poorer background.

In regards to your point, it’s very easy to prove if you were born male or female and if for whatever reason you can’t then unlucky, you can’t take part.

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By *inaTitzTV/TS
over a year ago

Titz Towers, North Notts

" No one is saying that any of the competitors in those sports have an unfair advantage due to their height.

That study by Loughborough Uni showed that there was little discernible advantage to trans athletes.

I’m not trying to stop trans people from taking part in sport I just think they need to compete on level playing grounds. "

I suggest you write off to the Prof who conducted the study and tell them they somehow overlooked all this

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By *ersey GirlCouple
over a year ago

Glasgow

"This is often used as a way of attacking trans people and of saying that they aren't really women. Considering the huge number of sporting events, participants and different sports, it really is a tiny issue.

Beth Jones of Loughborough Uni wrote a paper going into the whole thing and found that there wasn't a lot of substance to it and it had been blown out of all proportion.

You can't compare an affluent background and pushy parents to someone with a mans strength. Not even in the same ball park

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Surely they could create a TS category in Para sports. If they have categories for men without legs and arms ...why not one for men without dicks? "

Trans women are women.

Not men without dicks.

There's always one

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By *inaTitzTV/TS
over a year ago

Titz Towers, North Notts

Beth Jones of Loughborough Uni wrote a paper going into the whole thing and found that there wasn't a lot of substance to it and it had been blown out of all proportion.

You can't compare an affluent background and pushy parents to someone with a mans strength. Not even in the same ball park

Why not? Haven't you seen the cost of equipment for some sports? It's also a damn sight easier to pick up a sport if your parents can drive you to events and you aren't doing it by public transport.

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By *ersey GirlCouple
over a year ago

Glasgow

Beth Jones of Loughborough Uni wrote a paper going into the whole thing and found that there wasn't a lot of substance to it and it had been blown out of all proportion.

You can't compare an affluent background and pushy parents to someone with a mans strength. Not even in the same ball park

Why not? Haven't you seen the cost of equipment for some sports? It's also a damn sight easier to pick up a sport if your parents can drive you to events and you aren't doing it by public transport. "

They are all advantages through circumstance. Being born a man is an advantage through DNA. All the fancy equipment in the world still doesn't give you a natural strength

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By *aptainhornpipeMan
over a year ago

manchester

It depends on the trans woman, someone that identifies as transgender before puberty and takes steps to mitigate the changes a male body goes through at this time probably wouldn’t have an advantage.

But if you grow up a man develop physically as a man then decide to transition later in life then you will already have male physical attributes. Taking hormones will limit your sporting ability in so much as you wouldn’t be competitive as a male athlete but you would still be at an advantage to female athletes.

I have a mate his partner used to compete at a high level as a track cyclist. Had a very competitive career. My mate was a fairly decent rider but certainly not competitive and he used to leave her standing.

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By *inaTitzTV/TS
over a year ago

Titz Towers, North Notts

Beth Jones of Loughborough Uni wrote a paper going into the whole thing and found that there wasn't a lot of substance to it and it had been blown out of all proportion.

You can't compare an affluent background and pushy parents to someone with a mans strength. Not even in the same ball park

Why not? Haven't you seen the cost of equipment for some sports? It's also a damn sight easier to pick up a sport if your parents can drive you to events and you aren't doing it by public transport.

They are all advantages through circumstance. Being born a man is an advantage through DNA. All the fancy equipment in the world still doesn't give you a natural strength

And it's circumstance that they go into sport. Not all Trans have a natural strength advantage (see that Uni of Loughborough thing), not all sports require extra strength and there are downsides to having a greater body mass.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

Sorry I was replying to the other point that Tina made about people having raining facilities or coming from poorer background.

In regards to your point, it’s very easy to prove if you were born male or female and if for whatever reason you can’t then unlucky, you can’t take part. "

Oh clarification point.... Semenya was born intersex assigned female at birth. Underwent sex testing then in 2019 the IAAF bought in a new law saying that she could not compete in 800m, 400m or 1500m unless she and others like her took medication to lower their testosterone.

I'm not sure if this supports my argument or not though. I'm off to do some more research but on the whole I think that trans people should be allowed to compete in their chosen sport as the gender they identify as.

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By *uzie69xTV/TS
over a year ago

Maidstone

https://www.bbc.com/sport/48777660

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By *inegarStrokesMan
over a year ago

Uxbridge

" I'm not sure if this supports my argument or not though. I'm off to do some more research but on the whole I think that trans people should be allowed to compete in their chosen sport as the gender they identify as."

So what would stop a man who can’t quite win a medal in the men’s 100m, change his gender, identify as female and then dominate and win everything?

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By *inaTitzTV/TS
over a year ago

Titz Towers, North Notts

So what would stop a man who can’t quite win a medal in the men’s 100m, change his gender, identify as female and then dominate and win everything? "

Come back to us if it happens.

Also file under, what would happen if someone had extreme surgery so that they had 10' tall legs and just did it in a few strides, etc

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

So what would stop a man who can’t quite win a medal in the men’s 100m, change his gender, identify as female and then dominate and win everything? "

Time. Effort. The fact that's its pretty ridiculous. You're just reducing trans rights and the fight that trans men and women have for recognition to wanting to win a bit of metal.

Whilst I don't work for the IAAF I would imagine that there would need to be gender reassignment certificates shown etc. Do you really think someone would go through all of that, including all of the assessments needed to get a certificate to win a race?

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By *andyfloss2000Woman
over a year ago

ashford

No they shd not b banned! X

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By *andyfloss2000Woman
over a year ago

ashford

So what would stop a man who can’t quite win a medal in the men’s 100m, change his gender, identify as female and then dominate and win everything? "

Ohh my goodness! What a ridiculous suggestion!

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By *inegarStrokesMan
over a year ago

Uxbridge

There are athletes that have done in in 6 months in the US. That’s not a lot of time. Women have missed out because of it. I don’t think it’s ridiculous at all. It’s where we are heading if we allow it to happen.

Sport if about fairness. If people can compete fairly then I’m all for trans people taking part.

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By *iaisonseekerMan
over a year ago

Liverpool

"Surely they could create a TS category in Para sports. If they have categories for men without legs and arms ...why not one for men without dicks?

Trans women are women.

Not men without dicks.

There's always one

Funnily enough, I read "men without dicks" as a reference to Trans men.

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By *inegarStrokesMan
over a year ago

Uxbridge

So what would stop a man who can’t quite win a medal in the men’s 100m, change his gender, identify as female and then dominate and win everything?

Ohh my goodness! What a ridiculous suggestion!

How is it a ridiculous suggestion when it’s already happened in the US?

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

"There are athletes that have done in in 6 months in the US. That’s not a lot of time. Women have missed out because of it. I don’t think it’s ridiculous at all. It’s where we are heading if we allow it to happen.

Sport if about fairness. If people can compete fairly then I’m all for trans people taking part. "

What athletes?

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By *emptd2Man
over a year ago

Burgess Hill & Birmingham

Understandable but unfair.

Why can't they just assimilate the IAAF ruling on trans athletes into their sports?

Whereby their Testosterone levels has to be certain level for 12 months prior and have to be maintained for the competitive period too.

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By *acavityMan
over a year ago

Redditch

So what would stop a man who can’t quite win a medal in the men’s 100m, change his gender, identify as female and then dominate and win everything?

Come back to us if it happens.

Also file under, what would happen if someone had extreme surgery so that they had 10' tall legs and just did it in a few strides, etc"

Oscar Pistorius springs to mind. He could beat able-bodied athletes, with his super springy prosthetic legs.

"After becoming a Paralympic champion, Pistorius attempted to enter non-disabled international competitions, over persistent objections by the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) and arguments that his artificial limbs gave an unfair advantage. Pistorius prevailed in this legal dispute. At the 2011 World Championships in Athletics, Pistorius was the first amputee to win a non-disabled world track medal. At the 2012 Summer Olympic Games, Pistorius was the first double-leg amputee participant."

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By *andyfloss2000Woman
over a year ago

ashford

So what would stop a man who can’t quite win a medal in the men’s 100m, change his gender, identify as female and then dominate and win everything?

Ohh my goodness! What a ridiculous suggestion!

How is it a ridiculous suggestion when it’s already happened in the US? "

Yes but not to just win a race???

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I don't know about the UK, but in the US, Japan and possibly other countries, sports scholarships to universities can be highly lucrative for the future of the individual.

This is an interesting read:-

https://nypost.com/2019/10/13/justice-for-trans-athletes-is-unfair-to-girls-like-my-daughter/

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Quite simply how my brain works is from a biological point. The physical make up of a male in certain sports will have significant advantages, not just testosterone levels, it’s muscle mass, it’s anatomical make-up. As much as we want to be accepting and fair. To allow this to happen, in say combat sports could be extremely dangerous. It’s really difficult to articulate this correctly without someone becoming offended, but I just don’t see it as fair.

We are not talking about gifted genetics, or even disabilities. We have gender sports because of the differences in our biological make up, not because one is more worthy than the other, the records and stats speak for themselves... I feel like allowing cross over is dangerous but also can be discouraging as these athletes take what they do very seriously, and competition and winning is a livelihood. Allowing people with biological advantages compete against otherwise a level playing field to me isn’t fair.

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By *indergirlWoman
over a year ago

somewhere, someplace

"So the USA have introduced legislation to ban transgender girls and women to participate in female sports on the basis of protecting biological girls and women in an industry that is already biased in favour of men.

Women's sports doesn't have the same coverage, financial support and backing that their male counterparts have.

Do you agree with the banning of trans women in female sports?

I'm conflicted on the idea personally."

I kinda get it in some sports, for example there was a new Zealand weightlifter who thrashed the competition a country me of years ago, been a subject of big debate, men naturally tend to have better upper body strength and bone density so she was at an advantage so to speak transitioning at a later stage some say.

It's always going to be a big debate based on biology not sexual identity and the advantages they may have.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I am a man and some women are stronger than me (physically and mentally speaking) so not sure that argument can actually stand.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Competitive athletes should only be allowed to compete in the events of their assigned sex at birth. Period.

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By *ty31Man
over a year ago

NW London

Theres also a safety aspect to consider in combat sports (MMA and boxing for example). The advantage transgender women have could result in serious injuries and danger for their opponents.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

"Competitive athletes should only be allowed to compete in the events of their assigned sex at birth. Period.

Dinosaur. Period.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

"Theres also a safety aspect to consider in combat sports (MMA and boxing for example). The advantage transgender women have could result in serious injuries and danger for their opponents."

But surely they compete in classes determined by weight etc so that argumrnt doesn't stand up.

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By *hilledGuerillaMan
over a year ago

In the monkey house

Simply solution, four categories. Male, female, trans male to female, trans female to male.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Theres also a safety aspect to consider in combat sports (MMA and boxing for example). The advantage transgender women have could result in serious injuries and danger for their opponents.

But surely they compete in classes determined by weight etc so that argumrnt doesn't stand up. "

Exactly... I mean if I have to fight with Ronda Rousey, I am 100 % to lose

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By *oreador8Man
over a year ago

Huddersfield

If trans women athletes are so superior then where are they all?

I think it's a lot of fuss from a whole load of transphobic people

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

https://www.bbc.com/sport/46453958

Lots of good points raised here.

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By *ongueandgroove555Couple
over a year ago

Waterford

[Removed by poster at 25/03/21 19:38:21]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

1998: Karsten Braasch vs. the Williams sisters.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If trans women athletes are so superior then where are they all?

I think it's a lot of fuss from a whole load of transphobic people"

You have a point, but I think it's too new a situation to gauge accurately yet.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

"The difficulty as others have pointed out is that essentially you would have a man competing against women giving an unfair advantage and in reverse a woman trying to compete against men. Equality, recognition and acceptance is so important but just like I'll never be a formula one driver maybe transgender people need to realise all of society can't change to accommodate every single person as in essence it actually leads to inequality. "

No you wouldn't. You'd have a woman competing against another woman. Trans women have to take oestrogen and testosterone lowering medication which causes physiological changes in them.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Competitive athletes should only be allowed to compete in the events of their assigned sex at birth. Period.

Dinosaur. Period. "

Realist. Period.

But not surprised by dreamers throwing insults at folk who don’t agree with their own outlook.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

"Competitive athletes should only be allowed to compete in the events of their assigned sex at birth. Period.

Dinosaur. Period.

Realist. Period.

But not surprised by dreamers throwing insults at folk who don’t agree with their own outlook."

Awwwww you're cute. Just saying it as it is like you did.

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By *ty31Man
over a year ago

NW London

"Theres also a safety aspect to consider in combat sports (MMA and boxing for example). The advantage transgender women have could result in serious injuries and danger for their opponents.

But surely they compete in classes determined by weight etc so that argumrnt doesn't stand up. "

Weight does not take into account the natural strength difference between men and women. There has been anecdotal evidence from female competitors that have fought trans opponents that they were at a significant power disadvantage.

Take for example Katie Taylor who boxes at lightweight (132lbs) and compare her to Amir Khan (who boxed at that weight too). The differences in terms of strength and power are staggering.

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By *uper SaiyanMan
over a year ago

Birmingham

It depends on the sport as the muscle density and construction of men vs women are different. In general, men have muscle mass higher up on the body (chest and shoulders) and women lower (legs and thighs). So sports like lifting will skew to transwomen which non-trans women can never compete with a lá Lauren Hubbard - who broke all the womens record in weightlifting.

In combat sports, I think it definately should be seperated as the concequences are so much higher. In the end, you say what you like but it is a man beating on a woman (e.g. Fallon Fox). It isnt fair, but neither is being in a sport where your birth gender benefits you over women who cant get to the same level even with PEDs.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

"Theres also a safety aspect to consider in combat sports (MMA and boxing for example). The advantage transgender women have could result in serious injuries and danger for their opponents.

But surely they compete in classes determined by weight etc so that argumrnt doesn't stand up.

Take for example Katie Taylor who boxes at lightweight (132lbs) and compare her to Amir Khan (who boxed at that weight too). The differences in terms of strength and power are staggering."

But Amir Khan isn't taking the medication that trans women have to take. That's what arguments like this don't take into account. We're not putting man against female, we're putting trans female against female.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Wouldn't it eventually lead to untold categories and in effect each in a class of their own. Everyone's a winner?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Theres also a safety aspect to consider in combat sports (MMA and boxing for example). The advantage transgender women have could result in serious injuries and danger for their opponents.

But surely they compete in classes determined by weight etc so that argumrnt doesn't stand up. "

maybe that is part of the answer, maybe we recut sport categories to be based on height/ weight / age etc rather than gender , choosing the relevant attributes for each sport

not sure if it would be possible across all

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If trans women athletes are so superior then where are they all?

I think it's a lot of fuss from a whole load of transphobic people"

what percentage of the population are professional athletes, not high i imagine, even less when you carve it up into each sport individually and then what percentage of the population are trans

if you then extrapolate the percentage of professional athletes of the percentage of trans community i wouldn’t expect it to be high ... but just because the absolute number doesn’t seem high to me or you the lay man in the street doesn’t mean its not an issue for consideration in the sporting community

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

No you wouldn't. You'd have a woman competing against another woman. Trans women have to take oestrogen and testosterone lowering medication which causes physiological changes in them. "

is the problem not though that trans women is a term that refers to women in varying stages of the transition and at some ends of the timeline they might very much still have the advantages of their male body , but later in the process would have physiology much more akin to a woman

presumably that is what is making it so complex

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Competitive athletes should only be allowed to compete in the events of their assigned sex at birth. Period.

Dinosaur. Period.

Realist. Period.

But not surprised by dreamers throwing insults at folk who don’t agree with their own outlook.

Awwwww you're cute. Just saying it as it is like you did. "

Sadly I can’t return the sentiment. If you honestly think throwing an insult at someone because you don’t like their opinion is equatable to someone stating their opinion - based on a simple fact that going through male puberty gives advantages to trans athletes and therefore not appropriate for them to compete at competitive level - well, afraid to say you’re more dinosaur then I can ever hope to be.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Theres also a safety aspect to consider in combat sports (MMA and boxing for example). The advantage transgender women have could result in serious injuries and danger for their opponents.

But surely they compete in classes determined by weight etc so that argumrnt doesn't stand up.

Take for example Katie Taylor who boxes at lightweight (132lbs) and compare her to Amir Khan (who boxed at that weight too). The differences in terms of strength and power are staggering.

There are some studies that show after testosterone suppression and being below 10 nmol for more than 12 months (this is the IOC limit prescribed for trans women to compete with women). The trans women still retain a significant advantage in strength.

Even with suppression they can still maintain a significant advantage to women, one group strength test showed a 23% retained advantage which is huge. Retained muscle mass was higher as well.

Even with controls in place to make trans women on par with women hormonally it's still not a level playing field.

My feeling is that they shouldn't be allowed to compete with women.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

South park covered this issue quote well.

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By *estless nativeMan
over a year ago

near Glasgow

"To me it should be about testosterone levels and so on.

If the athlete could prove through testing that they could achieve similar levels to those born women then there should be no problem in competing should there? "

My thoughts as well.

I would also say that its not for politicians to decide, the relevant sporting authorities are capable of making their rules without government interference.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Theres also a safety aspect to consider in combat sports (MMA and boxing for example). The advantage transgender women have could result in serious injuries and danger for their opponents.

But surely they compete in classes determined by weight etc so that argumrnt doesn't stand up.

maybe that is part of the answer, maybe we recut sport categories to be based on height/ weight / age etc rather than gender , choosing the relevant attributes for each sport

not sure if it would be possible across all"

So a man could fight a woman if they weighed the same? Is this sensible? This would trigger me badly, not sure I'd want to watch this

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

"Competitive athletes should only be allowed to compete in the events of their assigned sex at birth. Period.

Dinosaur. Period.

Realist. Period.

But not surprised by dreamers throwing insults at folk who don’t agree with their own outlook.

Awwwww you're cute. Just saying it as it is like you did.

Eh....so because I educate myself about the effect of medication on the physiological changes trans women go through as part of their transition I'm a dinosaur?

My opinion may well change once I read up on what Mr monkey has posted.

That's the wonderful thing about open minds and willingness to adapt to a new world.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

"Theres also a safety aspect to consider in combat sports (MMA and boxing for example). The advantage transgender women have could result in serious injuries and danger for their opponents.

But surely they compete in classes determined by weight etc so that argumrnt doesn't stand up.

Take for example Katie Taylor who boxes at lightweight (132lbs) and compare her to Amir Khan (who boxed at that weight too). The differences in terms of strength and power are staggering.

Even with suppression they can still maintain a significant advantage to women, one group strength test showed a 23% retained advantage which is huge. Retained muscle mass was higher as well.

Even with controls in place to make trans women on par with women hormonally it's still not a level playing field.

My feeling is that they shouldn't be allowed to compete with women."

Do you have any links to the studies please?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We studied this a bit during my undergrad but was only limited research on it then.

Its not trans phobic but there are questions that need answers. Is it fair for women that all have been training for years to lose scholarships, jobs and their position in squads to transsexual individuals with physiological advantages? If there are physiological advantages what are they? Do these advantages reduce? Is there enough evidence on trained athletes? (nope). What about women with high testosterone like Caster Semenya and Dutee Chand? Semenya cant compete in 800m in japan. She is fighting it and considering changing distances where she can compete.

It is a very contentious issue. We try and encourage sport to be open to anyone, promote physical activity to everyone. Unfortunately transsexual individuals often feel intimidated to take up sport which is sad. Especially thinking if they can compete should they be allowed. That would be a horrible feeling.

I hope soon enough is done to accommodate everyone

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We have to ask: Does the transitioning process fully change the individual’s bones to match their gender? Does it alter their heart and lung size? Does it directly affect their tendon and ligament strength? Does it directly change their neuromuscular coordination? To the best of my knowledge, a full transition does very little to counteract these significant and permanent differences, and many transgender athletes have not gone through a full transition. As such, in my opinion it would be unfair to allow a transgender woman to compete against cis-gendered women.

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By *gent CoulsonMan
over a year ago

Secret hideaway in the pennines

Would it be classed as discrimination

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Theres also a safety aspect to consider in combat sports (MMA and boxing for example). The advantage transgender women have could result in serious injuries and danger for their opponents.

But surely they compete in classes determined by weight etc so that argumrnt doesn't stand up.

maybe that is part of the answer, maybe we recut sport categories to be based on height/ weight / age etc rather than gender , choosing the relevant attributes for each sport

not sure if it would be possible across all

So a man could fight a woman if they weighed the same? Is this sensible? This would trigger me badly, not sure I'd want to watch this

i honestly don’t know if its sensible, from reading what people said afterwards about amir khan it seems like probably not actually, because even at similar heights and weights there was still a significant strength advantage

however even if it doesn’t make sense i don’t think it being triggering should be the rationale for it not happening

movies and books depict things that could be triggering all the time and we don’t stop those

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By *irtylittletramp100TV/TS
over a year ago

Notts

Women's sports doesn't have the same coverage, financial support and backing that their male counterparts have.

Do you agree with the banning of trans women in female sports?

I'm conflicted on the idea personally."

i remember watching one of the williams sisters beat a Chinese player, both played well but id say the smaller woman was better but lost, when they shook hands you could see the size difference, it was a huge height and weight advantage, but both the same sex, was it fair? id say no. Martina was same, just out powered opponents but doesnt want to be out powered.. she did a documentary on subject. Perhaps weight classes male or female BUT whatever the rules someone will always have an advantage one way or another... not quite enough male hormone to be in that catergory or just inside that weight class or .... Its a tough one!

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By *inegarStrokesMan
over a year ago

Uxbridge

Interesting that people think you must be transphobic if you think it’s unfair for trans women to compete against women.

I have met trans women on this site, I have friends that are trans women and yet somehow I have a phobia of them? How does that make sense?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"We have to ask: Does the transitioning process fully change the individual’s bones to match their gender? Does it alter their heart and lung size? Does it directly affect their tendon and ligament strength? Does it directly change their neuromuscular coordination? To the best of my knowledge, a full transition does very little to counteract these significant and permanent differences, and many transgender athletes have not gone through a full transition. As such, in my opinion it would be unfair to allow a transgender woman to compete against cis-gendered women.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

Here is a recent open access systematic review that might be worth a read for some. If it's an area if interest.

I just skimmed it, not going to critique it, I've read too many articles today and I'm tucked up

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By *irtylittletramp100TV/TS
over a year ago

Notts

"Interesting that people think you must be transphobic if you think it’s unfair for trans women to compete against women.

I have met trans women on this site, I have friends that are trans women and yet somehow I have a phobia of them? How does that make sense? "

ignore them, people just like accusing others of being un-woke! Its the new sport lol I keep getting accused of hating women because i wouldnt agree with someone elses view point.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Theres also a safety aspect to consider in combat sports (MMA and boxing for example). The advantage transgender women have could result in serious injuries and danger for their opponents.

But surely they compete in classes determined by weight etc so that argumrnt doesn't stand up.

maybe that is part of the answer, maybe we recut sport categories to be based on height/ weight / age etc rather than gender , choosing the relevant attributes for each sport

not sure if it would be possible across all

So a man could fight a woman if they weighed the same? Is this sensible? This would trigger me badly, not sure I'd want to watch this

however even if it doesn’t make sense i don’t think it being triggering should be the rationale for it not happening

movies and books depict things that could be triggering all the time and we don’t stop those "

I'm talking from a domestic violence point of view. At the current time where educating boys about the treatment of women is the hot topic, I mean then we stick men and women in the ring together and watch them beat eachother? Psychologically as well its never pleasant seeing a man hit a woman even vice versa, I have boys, the thought of a woman hitting them repulses me equally. In a competitive arena I think sticking to gender (including trans - whether f or m transitioned) with similar height and weight attributes would feel more fair and safer and less controversial.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Competitive athletes should only be allowed to compete in the events of their assigned sex at birth. Period.

Dinosaur. Period.

Realist. Period.

But not surprised by dreamers throwing insults at folk who don’t agree with their own outlook.

Awwwww you're cute. Just saying it as it is like you did.

Eh....so because I educate myself about the effect of medication on the physiological changes trans women go through as part of their transition I'm a dinosaur?

My opinion may well change once I read up on what Mr monkey has posted.

That's the wonderful thing about open minds and willingness to adapt to a new world. "

When you call me a dinosaur first without considering the possibility that my own opinion was reached by doing the same thing of educating myself on the subject at hand and giving it consideration over time beforehand?

Then yes.

Great that you are open to change of opinion, as you say it’s the ability to adapt when introduced to new information that is most important. I’m all for a new world but one that is genuinely fair for all taking science into balanced consideration

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By *irtylittletramp100TV/TS
over a year ago

Notts

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

Here is a recent open access systematic review that might be worth a read for some. If it's an area if interest.

I just skimmed it, not going to critique it, I've read too many articles today and I'm tucked up

It does mean men with low levels have to compete against men with off the scale levels... is that fair? But women with high levels win everything! lol im sure you see my point, im not sure a level playing field is possible? but could those big guys rock a frock? I dont think so lol

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Theres also a safety aspect to consider in combat sports (MMA and boxing for example). The advantage transgender women have could result in serious injuries and danger for their opponents.

But surely they compete in classes determined by weight etc so that argumrnt doesn't stand up.

maybe that is part of the answer, maybe we recut sport categories to be based on height/ weight / age etc rather than gender , choosing the relevant attributes for each sport

not sure if it would be possible across all

So a man could fight a woman if they weighed the same? Is this sensible? This would trigger me badly, not sure I'd want to watch this

however even if it doesn’t make sense i don’t think it being triggering should be the rationale for it not happening

movies and books depict things that could be triggering all the time and we don’t stop those

But above, nobody is talking about putting men and women in a ring together, it's all about putting a woman and a trans woman in a ring together, and a trans woman is a real woman, equal in all ways.

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By *UCKER56Man
over a year ago

Walsall

Absolutely... Not fair!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Absolutely... Not fair!!"

To whom?

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By *rHotNottsMan
over a year ago

Dubai & Nottingham

"To me it should be about testosterone levels and so on.

If the athlete could prove through testing that they could achieve similar levels to those born women then there should be no problem in competing should there? "

That’s a flawed view of biological sex , what about advantages in height, weight, spatial awareness, speed, muscle and lack of boobs to limit you. You know the top two women’s football teams in the work have been beaten by teams of 15 year old boys, there are huge biological advantages in males in sport thats Why they compete separately

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By *irtylittletramp100TV/TS
over a year ago

Notts

thats the trouble with equality! if we are all equal it is totally fair... if we arent then it isnt... so what are we saying?

having said that i have seen a small boxer knock the crap out of a big rugby player just with hand speed.... they would never have been put in the same ring..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Theres also a safety aspect to consider in combat sports (MMA and boxing for example). The advantage transgender women have could result in serious injuries and danger for their opponents.

But surely they compete in classes determined by weight etc so that argumrnt doesn't stand up.

maybe that is part of the answer, maybe we recut sport categories to be based on height/ weight / age etc rather than gender , choosing the relevant attributes for each sport

not sure if it would be possible across all

So a man could fight a woman if they weighed the same? Is this sensible? This would trigger me badly, not sure I'd want to watch this

however even if it doesn’t make sense i don’t think it being triggering should be the rationale for it not happening

movies and books depict things that could be triggering all the time and we don’t stop those

and men never domestically abuse their sons? and we also teach boys not to beat other boys outside of sport too, its no different to teaching them not to beat women really

criminal violence and sport are different things ... 2 completely different ball games

i am not denying it could be triggering for some people, but that is a trauma response that needs to be dealt with through therapy and i would just suggest a personal choice not to be a spectator of that sport

its like saying ban runway models or food adverts incase we trigger someone with an eating disorder

if there are other valid reasons if which it seems physiology is one that men and women of the same height and weight are still not equal enough in terms of strength to fight each other then that makes total sense , but people being triggered wouldn’t be a valid reason against a sport imo

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By *alking HeadMan
over a year ago

Bolton

Its just sport. Its not like it matters. Find something else to do. Read a book, paint a picture, throw a pot....anything! Thats not aimed at any particularly group. Thats aimed at all competitive sports people.

I dont give a shit about sport. Any of it. Can you tell?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Theres also a safety aspect to consider in combat sports (MMA and boxing for example). The advantage transgender women have could result in serious injuries and danger for their opponents.

But surely they compete in classes determined by weight etc so that argumrnt doesn't stand up.

maybe that is part of the answer, maybe we recut sport categories to be based on height/ weight / age etc rather than gender , choosing the relevant attributes for each sport

not sure if it would be possible across all

So a man could fight a woman if they weighed the same? Is this sensible? This would trigger me badly, not sure I'd want to watch this

however even if it doesn’t make sense i don’t think it being triggering should be the rationale for it not happening

movies and books depict things that could be triggering all the time and we don’t stop those

But above, nobody is talking about putting men and women in a ring together, it's all about putting a woman and a trans woman in a ring together, and a trans woman is a real woman, equal in all ways.

I'm not sure I agree when it comes to physical strength and fairness in sport. It's not about equality of rights in this instance, it's about physical attributes giving someone a distinct advantage. A trans woman was at some point pre-op and pre-treatment and therefore male, and I think a lot of that strength and muscle advantage still remains after hormone treatment, though perhaps some may dissipate (I'm not 100% sure).

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Theres also a safety aspect to consider in combat sports (MMA and boxing for example). The advantage transgender women have could result in serious injuries and danger for their opponents.

But surely they compete in classes determined by weight etc so that argumrnt doesn't stand up.

maybe that is part of the answer, maybe we recut sport categories to be based on height/ weight / age etc rather than gender , choosing the relevant attributes for each sport

not sure if it would be possible across all

So a man could fight a woman if they weighed the same? Is this sensible? This would trigger me badly, not sure I'd want to watch this

however even if it doesn’t make sense i don’t think it being triggering should be the rationale for it not happening

movies and books depict things that could be triggering all the time and we don’t stop those

But above, nobody is talking about putting men and women in a ring together, it's all about putting a woman and a trans woman in a ring together, and a trans woman is a real woman, equal in all ways.

No above someone said this:

'maybe that is part of the answer, maybe we recut sport categories to be based on height/ weight / age etc rather than gender , choosing the relevant attributes for each sport'

And that is what I was referring to.

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By *inegarStrokesMan
over a year ago

Uxbridge

"Theres also a safety aspect to consider in combat sports (MMA and boxing for example). The advantage transgender women have could result in serious injuries and danger for their opponents.

But surely they compete in classes determined by weight etc so that argumrnt doesn't stand up.

maybe that is part of the answer, maybe we recut sport categories to be based on height/ weight / age etc rather than gender , choosing the relevant attributes for each sport

not sure if it would be possible across all

So a man could fight a woman if they weighed the same? Is this sensible? This would trigger me badly, not sure I'd want to watch this

however even if it doesn’t make sense i don’t think it being triggering should be the rationale for it not happening

movies and books depict things that could be triggering all the time and we don’t stop those

But above, nobody is talking about putting men and women in a ring together, it's all about putting a woman and a trans woman in a ring together, and a trans woman is a real woman, equal in all ways.

I remember reading in an article from I think last year saying trans women have a 12% advantage over women in sports. These are trans women that have fully completed there transition.

When sport at the highest level can be determined by a 1% difference in someone’s ability or preparation then it’s massive to have a 12% advantage.

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By *rRightlyMan
over a year ago

Near Brexit dreamer

A wise teddybear once said: there are no chicks with dicks, only guys with tits

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By *irtylittletramp100TV/TS
over a year ago

Notts

"Its just sport. Its not like it matters. Find something else to do. Read a book, paint a picture, throw a pot....anything! Thats not aimed at any particularly group. Thats aimed at all competitive sports people.

I dont give a shit about sport. Any of it. Can you tell?

Yes but men have an advantage at throwing pots lol

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By *irtylittletramp100TV/TS
over a year ago

Notts

"Theres also a safety aspect to consider in combat sports (MMA and boxing for example). The advantage transgender women have could result in serious injuries and danger for their opponents.

But surely they compete in classes determined by weight etc so that argumrnt doesn't stand up.

maybe that is part of the answer, maybe we recut sport categories to be based on height/ weight / age etc rather than gender , choosing the relevant attributes for each sport

not sure if it would be possible across all

So a man could fight a woman if they weighed the same? Is this sensible? This would trigger me badly, not sure I'd want to watch this

however even if it doesn’t make sense i don’t think it being triggering should be the rationale for it not happening

movies and books depict things that could be triggering all the time and we don’t stop those

But above, nobody is talking about putting men and women in a ring together, it's all about putting a woman and a trans woman in a ring together, and a trans woman is a real woman, equal in all ways.

I remember reading in an article from I think last year saying trans women have a 12% advantage over women in sports. These are trans women that have fully completed there transition.

When sport at the highest level can be determined by a 1% difference in someone’s ability or preparation then it’s massive to have a 12% advantage. "

I'd say a short trans weighing 8st would struggle to beat a tall fem weighing 12 st at tennis.... think it's case by case!

But as a general track and field comment I read similar

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By *alking HeadMan
over a year ago

Bolton

And one of the best is...Grayson Perry! But I dont know if hes dressed when he throws a pot. Some of his clothes are a bit pricey apparently.

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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago

upton wirral

"Trangender women were born men so they will be physically stronger and faster than a woman so in a way yes they shouldn't be aloud ..."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Could a new gender category be introduced? Would that be a solution?

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By *mateur100Man
over a year ago

nr faversham

Simple answer...no, it's not fair

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By *irtylittletramp100TV/TS
over a year ago

Notts

"And one of the best is...Grayson Perry! But I dont know if hes dressed when he throws a pot. Some of his clothes are a bit pricey apparently."

No he doesn't, he has an art show, you can watch lol no macho actions involved lol

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By *alking HeadMan
over a year ago

Bolton

Ive only seen him dressed on panel shows. But If its a show hes presenting he likes the art to say more than his clothes. Hes always fun to watch.

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By *laymateteeMan
over a year ago

bristol

Beth Jones of Loughborough Uni wrote a paper going into the whole thing and found that there wasn't a lot of substance to it and it had been blown out of all proportion.

You can't compare an affluent background and pushy parents to someone with a mans strength. Not even in the same ball park

So true. Kenyan long distance runners don't come from first world countries or have high tech training facilities.

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By *irtylittletramp100TV/TS
over a year ago

Notts

"Ive only seen him dressed on panel shows. But If its a show hes presenting he likes the art to say more than his clothes. Hes always fun to watch. "

Seems very level headed

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By *stbury DavenportMan
over a year ago

Nottingham

Simplest answer: Abolish sport.

Also: Abolish gender too.

Job done. World's a better place. Let me know if you've got any other non-problems you'd like resolving.

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By *irtylittletramp100TV/TS
over a year ago

Notts

Beth Jones of Loughborough Uni wrote a paper going into the whole thing and found that there wasn't a lot of substance to it and it had been blown out of all proportion.

You can't compare an affluent background and pushy parents to someone with a mans strength. Not even in the same ball park

So true. Kenyan long distance runners don't come from first world countries or have high tech training facilities."

I think the Kenyans have been found to have biological advantages for long distance running though, so how's that fair? Lol but rubbish shot putters! now what!

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By *laymateteeMan
over a year ago

bristol

"Theres also a safety aspect to consider in combat sports (MMA and boxing for example). The advantage transgender women have could result in serious injuries and danger for their opponents.

But surely they compete in classes determined by weight etc so that argumrnt doesn't stand up.

maybe that is part of the answer, maybe we recut sport categories to be based on height/ weight / age etc rather than gender , choosing the relevant attributes for each sport

not sure if it would be possible across all

So a man could fight a woman if they weighed the same? Is this sensible? This would trigger me badly, not sure I'd want to watch this

however even if it doesn’t make sense i don’t think it being triggering should be the rationale for it not happening

movies and books depict things that could be triggering all the time and we don’t stop those

But above, nobody is talking about putting men and women in a ring together, it's all about putting a woman and a trans woman in a ring together, and a trans woman is a real woman, equal in all ways.

I agree,even after hormone treatment I'm sure that some of male strength remains coz that's in one's DNA and genetics. It's the same as me having plastic surgery and skin going through treatment to change my skin colour and look white,but my DNA will always say I'm a black male and if I have kids with a black woman they'll be black and with a white woman they'll be mixed race regardless of how much I've tried to change my appearance

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By *mateur100Man
over a year ago

nr faversham

Beth Jones of Loughborough Uni wrote a paper going into the whole thing and found that there wasn't a lot of substance to it and it had been blown out of all proportion.

You can't compare an affluent background and pushy parents to someone with a mans strength. Not even in the same ball park

So true. Kenyan long distance runners don't come from first world countries or have high tech training facilities."

This is a joke I assume???

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By *irtylittletramp100TV/TS
over a year ago

Notts

"Simplest answer: Abolish sport.

Also: Abolish gender too.

Job done. World's a better place. Let me know if you've got any other non-problems you'd like resolving. "

Agree, take all the money out of it and no one will give a toss

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By *laymateteeMan
over a year ago

bristol

Beth Jones of Loughborough Uni wrote a paper going into the whole thing and found that there wasn't a lot of substance to it and it had been blown out of all proportion.

You can't compare an affluent background and pushy parents to someone with a mans strength. Not even in the same ball park

So true. Kenyan long distance runners don't come from first world countries or have high tech training facilities.

I think the Kenyans have been found to have biological advantages for long distance running though, so how's that fair? Lol but rubbish shot putters! now what!

Really? That theory is useless coz they say Kenyans are thin and their legs are 400g light that that of their European counterparts,I've never seen a long distance runner that is not thin,from any ethnic background.

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By *laymateteeMan
over a year ago

bristol

Beth Jones of Loughborough Uni wrote a paper going into the whole thing and found that there wasn't a lot of substance to it and it had been blown out of all proportion.

You can't compare an affluent background and pushy parents to someone with a mans strength. Not even in the same ball park

So true. Kenyan long distance runners don't come from first world countries or have high tech training facilities.

This is a joke I assume???"

Where's the joke??

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By *mateur100Man
over a year ago

nr faversham

Beth Jones of Loughborough Uni wrote a paper going into the whole thing and found that there wasn't a lot of substance to it and it had been blown out of all proportion.

You can't compare an affluent background and pushy parents to someone with a mans strength. Not even in the same ball park

So true. Kenyan long distance runners don't come from first world countries or have high tech training facilities.

This is a joke I assume???

Where's the joke??"

There clearly isn't one as this isn't a serious comment surely

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By *laymateteeMan
over a year ago

bristol

Beth Jones of Loughborough Uni wrote a paper going into the whole thing and found that there wasn't a lot of substance to it and it had been blown out of all proportion.

You can't compare an affluent background and pushy parents to someone with a mans strength. Not even in the same ball park

So true. Kenyan long distance runners don't come from first world countries or have high tech training facilities.

This is a joke I assume???

Where's the joke??

There clearly isn't one as this isn't a serious comment surely"

What are you on about dude?

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

Musing here but, maybe a points based system (a bit like handicaps) like are operated in wheelchair basketball? Each player has a points value and a maximum number of points can be on court at any time and a max of 5 players. The total points on court varies depending on the level you're playing at, youths etc.

An able bodied person is 5 points and basically you kind of lose either half or one point per limb incapacity. I'm a 4.5 pointer, because my single limb impairment is deemed mild. So my below the knee amputee FWB is also 4.5.

My pal who has impairments in all limbs plus lack of trunk control is a 1-pointer, the lowest you can be. I strap him into his chair with bondage tape. Or Gorilla tape, whatever's handy!

In mixed teams, female players get an extra points allowance so I become a 3.5 pointer but my FWB remains 4.5 because he's a bloke.

The idea is that you can't play many high pointers (unless you play more women) and keep with the max points so even if teams field a mixture of disabilities, overall there should be no benefit one way or the other.

Fielding big/tall 4.0 or 4.5 female players is a good way to "cheat" the system in mixed teams but obviously doesn't work at elite level where there's no mixed game.

A decent male 3.5 can generally outreach me, so more likely to block shots, BUT because a male 3.5 pointer likely has upper limb deficits, I can most likely out push him to chase back or to break down court (I'm pretty strong upper body wise but have short T rex arms).

Basically the idea is that the wheelchair is the leveller and minor allowances are made for differing impairments.

If points don't work, just make all sports wheelchair sports then everyone can compete on a pretty even playing field (actually best to stick to tarmac or tracks because fields are hard to push on

)

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By *ultry SuccubusTV/TS
over a year ago

London

Interesting and tricky.

Personally I think it's not fair and shouldn't be allowed but there are loopholes.

At the moment, technically, it all depends on the testosterone level. At the moment there is a limit to testosterone level allowed in females athletes and if they are above that level, they are not allowed to compete as a female in particular events.

However similar can be argued with some "female" athletes such as Caster Semenya, Niyonsaba, Margaret Wambui, Aminatou Seyni, Liao Mengxue and Tong Zenghuan. They are identified as "female" and defended by many as one although they have elevated testosterone level, at least one of them confirmed to have XY chromosome and if you look at them, they do appear very masculine. If they are allowed to compete, then, by right the trans-female too.

Either way, the cis-female with lower testosterone level (now the definition of normal level is truly vague) is at a disadvantage and might have to (illegally) resort to drugs (eg the old infamous oral turinabol or the still going on stanazolol).

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

New gender category i think, although the games would be on for longer

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By *irtylittletramp100TV/TS
over a year ago

Notts

Beth Jones of Loughborough Uni wrote a paper going into the whole thing and found that there wasn't a lot of substance to it and it had been blown out of all proportion.

You can't compare an affluent background and pushy parents to someone with a mans strength. Not even in the same ball park

So true. Kenyan long distance runners don't come from first world countries or have high tech training facilities.

I think the Kenyans have been found to have biological advantages for long distance running though, so how's that fair? Lol but rubbish shot putters! now what!

There was a documentary on it, can't remember every word, but the conclusion was they had an advantage through various factors and their dominance of long distance events supported that..... dont shoot messenger lol

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By *irtylittletramp100TV/TS
over a year ago

Notts

"Interesting and tricky.

Personally I think it's not fair and shouldn't be allowed but there are loopholes.

So why not an upper level for men?

Personally although off subject a bit, take money out of sport and make it truly amateur again

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By *laymateteeMan
over a year ago

bristol

"Interesting and tricky.

Personally I think it's not fair and shouldn't be allowed but there are loopholes.

But in the case of Caster and other WOMEN you mentioned they were all born females right? So yes they might have high testosterone levels but they are 100% female from birth and that is just the way it is . They should compete with women coz that's what they are.

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By *laymateteeMan
over a year ago

bristol

Beth Jones of Loughborough Uni wrote a paper going into the whole thing and found that there wasn't a lot of substance to it and it had been blown out of all proportion.

You can't compare an affluent background and pushy parents to someone with a mans strength. Not even in the same ball park

So true. Kenyan long distance runners don't come from first world countries or have high tech training facilities.

I think the Kenyans have been found to have biological advantages for long distance running though, so how's that fair? Lol but rubbish shot putters! now what!

I'm not shooting you at all. Sometimes the advantage that some people have is training hard and the will to succeed and be the best at what they do

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By *irtylittletramp100TV/TS
over a year ago

Notts

Beth Jones of Loughborough Uni wrote a paper going into the whole thing and found that there wasn't a lot of substance to it and it had been blown out of all proportion.

You can't compare an affluent background and pushy parents to someone with a mans strength. Not even in the same ball park

So true. Kenyan long distance runners don't come from first world countries or have high tech training facilities.

I think the Kenyans have been found to have biological advantages for long distance running though, so how's that fair? Lol but rubbish shot putters! now what!

I'm not shooting you at all. Sometimes the advantage that some people have is training hard and the will to succeed and be the best at what they do"

I've been a sporting champion and know some people have advantages. Even a horse trainer will tell you its often not the best horse that wins but the one that wants to win the most!

However, back to trans vs fems... it's a tough call and the flip side is low level test men vs high level test men!

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By *ultry SuccubusTV/TS
over a year ago

London

@ dirtylittletramp @ _laymatetee.

1. They were brought up at female yes, but they do have XY chromosome and elevated testosterone level. Similar can be said with Stella Walsh, a Polish athletes in the 60s 70s if i'm not mistaken.

2. The question is unfairness to cis-female. Elevating the testostrone level for male athletes, do not have any effect to the cis-female athletes.

3. Some suggest lowering the testosterone level of female athletes. However, cis-female, due to training (and who knows, micro-dosing of drugs) do elevate their testosterone level but rarely beyond current level of 5 ng/mol.

4. For those "female" athletes but with XY chromosomes, you can fabricate your own childhood history and say you never know you are a male. Especially in poorer countries where success in sports is extremely important in ensuring a better life.

I, personally, think it's unfair to allow both trans-female and "female" with confirmed XY chromosome to compete in females events.

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By *r TriomanMan
over a year ago

Chippenham Malmesbury area

It depends on the sport, darts, curling, bowling, it doesn't make a difference. Ultra running, women are up there with the men anyway. So, if transgender females are to be banned from female sports then it should be done on a case by case basis.

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By *laymateteeMan
over a year ago

bristol

[Removed by poster at 25/03/21 23:14:24]

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By *ultry SuccubusTV/TS
over a year ago

London

I'm not shooting you at all. Sometimes the advantage that some people have is training hard and the will to succeed and be the best at what they do"

I don't think we should "shoot' anybody.

It is a very interesting subject.

I am an avid fan of Olympic sports ever since 1976 when I was 7 years old and this issue really confusing especially when people bring in emotion/personal issues into it.

When I first saw Caster Semenya in Commonwealth Games (she was a teenager at that time), it startled me. Then few others appear and they are all from Africa (only recently from China). When IAAF allow them to compete, I lost my interest in athletics and now concentrate in swimming and biathlon instead.

Plus other issues concerning micro-dosing of drugs and the targeted blame on Russian and Chinese athletes for drugs usage (but that is not for this thread).

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By *orkiebar51Man
over a year ago

Keighley

Any sport based upon the skeletal / muscle mass ratio cannot be "fair" between trans women and biological women.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If trans women athletes are so superior then where are they all?

I think it's a lot of fuss from a whole load of transphobic people"

Exactly.

It’s been proved that the advantage a trans woman would have diminished to practically zero after two years on hormones.

Muscle mass simply falls away.

Height and limb length advantages? Have you seen how tall the women are who compete in sports where these attributes are an advantage? They’re not 5’ tall.

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By *laymateteeMan
over a year ago

bristol

"@ dirtylittletramp @ _laymatetee.

1. They were brought up at female yes, but they do have XY chromosome and elevated testosterone level. Similar can be said with Stella Walsh, a Polish athletes in the 60s 70s if i'm not mistaken.

2. The question is unfairness to cis-female. Elevating the testostrone level for male athletes, do not have any effect to the cis-female athletes.

I, personally, think it's unfair to allow both trans-female and "female" with confirmed XY chromosome to compete in females events."

Surely for those women who come from 'POORER COUNTRIES were success in sport is extremely important in ensuring a better life' as you say,if they're that poor where would their parents get the money for them to through the process of being trans without any guarantees that they'll even participate in any sport. In most POORER countries especially in Africa belive me no poor parent would spent money on ther child having a sex or gender change,it doesn't happen and it's unacceptable

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By *irtylittletramp100TV/TS
over a year ago

Notts

"@ dirtylittletramp @ _laymatetee.

1. They were brought up at female yes, but they do have XY chromosome and elevated testosterone level. Similar can be said with Stella Walsh, a Polish athletes in the 60s 70s if i'm not mistaken.

2. The question is unfairness to cis-female. Elevating the testostrone level for male athletes, do not have any effect to the cis-female athletes.

I, personally, think it's unfair to allow both trans-female and "female" with confirmed XY chromosome to compete in females events."

Need a running scale, hormone levels and weight rather than male female, its a new world and old gender stereotypes be gone, if we really want total equality then perhaps that's what we should do.

It's not fair for a 13 st 6ft female vs 8st 5ft female for tennis and various other sports Or 6ft 7 man vs 5ft 5 man tennis.... etc and gymnastics, ever seen anyone over 6ft!

Or make all sport all comers, best person wins.... we have female soldiers so what's the issue?

I'm just saying

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By *konCouple
over a year ago

cardiff

It’s simple . Who have more rights ? Women ? Or male to female trans women ? Women should not have their work compromised on the basis of a PC agenda . You don’t match a heavyweight mate boxer against a lightweight female boxer.

Create a category for trans athletes by all means , but don’t put the able bodied world 500 meter sprint champion in the same competition as the world paralympics wheelchair champion .

It doesn’t happen anywhere else, why should it here ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It’s simple . Who have more rights ? Women ? Or male to female trans women ?

Cis women do.

Next question.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

"It’s simple . Who have more rights ? Women ? Or male to female trans women ? Women should not have their work compromised on the basis of a PC agenda . You don’t match a heavyweight mate boxer against a lightweight female boxer.

Create a category for trans athletes by all means , but don’t put the able bodied world 500 meter sprint champion in the same competition as the world paralympics wheelchair champion .

It doesn’t happen anywhere else, why should it here ?

Make the distance a little longer (we don't really have a 500m competition). and don't bet on the runner. I can beat people on foot in my shitty day chair on the right surface.... And I can keep up with runners

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By *irtylittletramp100TV/TS
over a year ago

Notts

Create a category for trans athletes by all means , but don’t put the able bodied world 500 meter sprint champion in the same competition as the world paralympics wheelchair champion .

It doesn’t happen anywhere else, why should it here ?

It's about how we define equality

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By *laymateteeMan
over a year ago

bristol

I'm not shooting you at all. Sometimes the advantage that some people have is training hard and the will to succeed and be the best at what they do

I don't think we should "shoot' anybody.

It is a very interesting subject.

I am an avid fan of Olympic sports ever since 1976 when I was 7 years old and this issue really confusing especially when people bring in emotion/personal issues into it.

Plus other issues concerning micro-dosing of drugs and the targeted blame on Russian and Chinese athletes for drugs usage (but that is not for this thread)."

When it comes to Caster I'll tell you one thing,she's a woman,I know this coz I know her personally, she's from hood. Yes she might have high testosterone levels but that's not the same as a trans person who born a men and having to compete against women

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

I'm not shooting you at all. Sometimes the advantage that some people have is training hard and the will to succeed and be the best at what they do

I don't think we should "shoot' anybody.

It is a very interesting subject.

I am an avid fan of Olympic sports ever since 1976 when I was 7 years old and this issue really confusing especially when people bring in emotion/personal issues into it.

Plus other issues concerning micro-dosing of drugs and the targeted blame on Russian and Chinese athletes for drugs usage (but that is not for this thread).

Caster Semenya is physically female (based on external genetalia) and her birth certificate, personal identity etc. She has a typical male sex chromosome configuration (XY) but has at least some degree of androgen insensitivity syndrome, meaning that she did not develop male external genitals when in utero due to her lack of androgen receptors.

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By *laymateteeMan
over a year ago

bristol

"@ dirtylittletramp @ _laymatetee.

1. They were brought up at female yes, but they do have XY chromosome and elevated testosterone level. Similar can be said with Stella Walsh, a Polish athletes in the 60s 70s if i'm not mistaken.

2. The question is unfairness to cis-female. Elevating the testostrone level for male athletes, do not have any effect to the cis-female athletes.

I, personally, think it's unfair to allow both trans-female and "female" with confirmed XY chromosome to compete in females events.

Need a running scale, hormone levels and weight rather than male female, its a new world and old gender stereotypes be gone, if we really want total equality then perhaps that's what we should do.

It's not fair for a 13 st 6ft female vs 8st 5ft female for tennis and various other sports Or 6ft 7 man vs 5ft 5 man tennis.... etc and gymnastics, ever seen anyone over 6ft!

Or make all sport all comers, best person wins.... we have female soldiers so what's the issue?

I'm just saying

Serena has lost to Naomi Osaka more than once and she's talker and looks stronger so when it comes to tennis you height and weight doesn't really give you that much of an advantage

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By *laymateteeMan
over a year ago

bristol

I'm not shooting you at all. Sometimes the advantage that some people have is training hard and the will to succeed and be the best at what they do

I don't think we should "shoot' anybody.

It is a very interesting subject.

I am an avid fan of Olympic sports ever since 1976 when I was 7 years old and this issue really confusing especially when people bring in emotion/personal issues into it.

Plus other issues concerning micro-dosing of drugs and the targeted blame on Russian and Chinese athletes for drugs usage (but that is not for this thread).

So she's female then?

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By *irtylittletramp100TV/TS
over a year ago

Notts

Create a category for trans athletes by all means , but don’t put the able bodied world 500 meter sprint champion in the same competition as the world paralympics wheelchair champion .

It doesn’t happen anywhere else, why should it here ?

Your saying women are disabled compared to trans! That's the comparison lol the women winning events in general, have an advantage over the other competitors. Just look at the height increase of Wimbledon champions over the decades. Someone always has an advantage!

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By *konCouple
over a year ago

cardiff

"It’s simple . Who have more rights ? Women ? Or male to female trans women ?

Cis women do.

Next question. "

They do , but those rights are not somehow superior to everyone else’s rights

Next question ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There are more than just the two genders.

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By *ultry SuccubusTV/TS
over a year ago

London

That's why this is a very intersting and very complicated subject.

Especially when we let emotion/personal things come into the discussion.

As for me, if a female athlete with elevated testosterone level and XY chromosome allowed, then they have to allow the trans-gender as well.

Many (although not all) trans-women, although born as male, live their life as female - effeminate etc from childhood - and thta is not any different from a "female" with elevated testosterone level and XY chromosome.

That is why, for me, at the current regulation, stick to the regulation : testosterone level 5ng/ml. If your testosterone level is below that, then, if you allow one group, you have to allow another.

Even a real male (not trans) but with testosterone level below 5ng/ml but decided to compete in female events, you have to allow.

Either way, the cis-female will be the one at a disadvantage. but then, this might be called as sexist as well (what, are you saying that female is weaker?? etc ..).

It's very complicated.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It’s simple . Who have more rights ? Women ? Or male to female trans women ?

Cis women do.

Next question.

They do , but those rights are not somehow superior to everyone else’s rights

Next question ?"

You’re right; trans rights are not superior to anyone else’s. We just have less of them. Glad you noticed.

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By *irtylittletramp100TV/TS
over a year ago

Notts

"@ dirtylittletramp @ _laymatetee.

1. They were brought up at female yes, but they do have XY chromosome and elevated testosterone level. Similar can be said with Stella Walsh, a Polish athletes in the 60s 70s if i'm not mistaken.

2. The question is unfairness to cis-female. Elevating the testostrone level for male athletes, do not have any effect to the cis-female athletes.

I, personally, think it's unfair to allow both trans-female and "female" with confirmed XY chromosome to compete in females events.

Need a running scale, hormone levels and weight rather than male female, its a new world and old gender stereotypes be gone, if we really want total equality then perhaps that's what we should do.

It's not fair for a 13 st 6ft female vs 8st 5ft female for tennis and various other sports Or 6ft 7 man vs 5ft 5 man tennis.... etc and gymnastics, ever seen anyone over 6ft!

Or make all sport all comers, best person wins.... we have female soldiers so what's the issue?

I'm just saying

Serena has lost to Naomi Osaka more than once and she's talker and looks stronger so when it comes to tennis you height and weight doesn't really give you that much of an advantage "

In a survey of 2 lol check the stats for men and women, champagne in tennis getting taller

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By *irtylittletramp100TV/TS
over a year ago

Notts

Spell check lol champs not champagne lol but tall champagne better!

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By *laymateteeMan
over a year ago

bristol

"There are more than just the two genders. "

Nowadays there are,but in sport there's only two. Instead of trying to get trans man of women competing with those who were born male or female why not just have a category for trans people. Football teams from Africa can't play in the euros that's why there's a Africa Cup of nations.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

I'm not shooting you at all. Sometimes the advantage that some people have is training hard and the will to succeed and be the best at what they do

I don't think we should "shoot' anybody.

It is a very interesting subject.

I am an avid fan of Olympic sports ever since 1976 when I was 7 years old and this issue really confusing especially when people bring in emotion/personal issues into it.

Plus other issues concerning micro-dosing of drugs and the targeted blame on Russian and Chinese athletes for drugs usage (but that is not for this thread).

So she's female then?"

She's physically and legally female, but genetically male. A person with XXY chromosome configuration is male, despite having two X chromosomes because the presence of any Y chromosome switches on testosterone production and triggers the pro-ovaries to descend to become external testicles and the vaginal canal is sealed up (hence the line men have down the back of their scrotum).

If a person has a lack of androgen receptors, however, despite producing testosterone in high amounts, they will either not respond or respond to a much lesser extent.

Caster S is perhaps best described as intersex because she is physically observed to be female (which is how sex is assigned at birth) but is genetically male. If we assigned gender at birth based on observing the chromosomes, she'd have been assigned the male gender.

Our understanding of non-standard sex chromosome configuration is really not brilliant. Although we arbitrarily say XY is male and XX female, in reality many other configurations exist, with varying externally observable traits. For example, XO females (Turner syndrome) have a characteristic set of physical characteristics but XXY men (Klinefelter syndrome) don't always. There's questions about Peter Crouch, for example, and if he is XXY because he has some typical characteristics but unless he was to get a test, no-one would ever know because he appears to be able to have kids (many men with Klinefelter syndrome are infertile) and he appears to have been able to do everything else in his life successfully. Why would anyone look at his chromosomes?

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

If Mike Tyson had a sex change then I would still not volunteer to face him at boxing...

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

"@ dirtylittletramp @ _laymatetee.

1. They were brought up at female yes, but they do have XY chromosome and elevated testosterone level. Similar can be said with Stella Walsh, a Polish athletes in the 60s 70s if i'm not mistaken.

2. The question is unfairness to cis-female. Elevating the testostrone level for male athletes, do not have any effect to the cis-female athletes.

I, personally, think it's unfair to allow both trans-female and "female" with confirmed XY chromosome to compete in females events.

Need a running scale, hormone levels and weight rather than male female, its a new world and old gender stereotypes be gone, if we really want total equality then perhaps that's what we should do.

It's not fair for a 13 st 6ft female vs 8st 5ft female for tennis and various other sports Or 6ft 7 man vs 5ft 5 man tennis.... etc and gymnastics, ever seen anyone over 6ft!

Or make all sport all comers, best person wins.... we have female soldiers so what's the issue?

I'm just saying

Serena has lost to Naomi Osaka more than once and she's talker and looks stronger so when it comes to tennis you height and weight doesn't really give you that much of an advantage "

Serena's age is against her now unfortunately. I think a same age Serena to Naomi Osaka would be a different ball game.....

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By *aptainhornpipeMan
over a year ago

manchester

"I am a man and some women are stronger than me (physically and mentally speaking) so not sure that argument can actually stand.

Do you compete in any sports

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Create a category for trans athletes by all means , but don’t put the able bodied world 500 meter sprint champion in the same competition as the world paralympics wheelchair champion .

It doesn’t happen anywhere else, why should it here ?

i think disadvantaged by biology would be a better description than disabled in comparison , but yes like you say even 2 cis women one of them could be disadvantaged by their genes with one being taller or smaller depending in the sport , or some other measureable attribute that cant be improved with training

but at some point categories were drawn up and they were based in gender and now that gender is fluid the categories need to be revisited to work out how everyone can be included whilst ensuring competition is still fair

i guess it somehow needs to be a measure of what your body has the capacity to do (wether you have then optimised your body to its full capacity is regardless) , but how do we measure that , does it need to be some complex matrix involving height, weight and hormone levels to then apply people scores like kinky’s example (i think in solo sport it would need to be a much more complex scoring system)

whatever ends up in place it seems to me like there is a huge amount of research that needs to happen before anything can be redesigned

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"There are more than just the two genders.

There always were more, the scientific evidence just wasn’t available years ago.

In a similar way science used to say Pluto was a planet. They had to redefine the definition of planet when they realised it want one

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By *laymateteeMan
over a year ago

bristol

"@ dirtylittletramp @ _laymatetee.

1. They were brought up at female yes, but they do have XY chromosome and elevated testosterone level. Similar can be said with Stella Walsh, a Polish athletes in the 60s 70s if i'm not mistaken.

2. The question is unfairness to cis-female. Elevating the testostrone level for male athletes, do not have any effect to the cis-female athletes.

I, personally, think it's unfair to allow both trans-female and "female" with confirmed XY chromosome to compete in females events.

Need a running scale, hormone levels and weight rather than male female, its a new world and old gender stereotypes be gone, if we really want total equality then perhaps that's what we should do.

It's not fair for a 13 st 6ft female vs 8st 5ft female for tennis and various other sports Or 6ft 7 man vs 5ft 5 man tennis.... etc and gymnastics, ever seen anyone over 6ft!

Or make all sport all comers, best person wins.... we have female soldiers so what's the issue?

I'm just saying

Serena has lost to Naomi Osaka more than once and she's talker and looks stronger so when it comes to tennis you height and weight doesn't really give you that much of an advantage

In a survey of 2 lol check the stats for men and women, champagne in tennis getting taller

Halep,Cibulcova,Henin and Billie Jean King just to mention a few a d yet they beat players taller than them

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Surely they could create a TS category in Para sports. If they have categories for men without legs and arms ...why not one for men without dicks? "

I'm surprised yours hasn't been torn off

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By *inky_CarpenterMan
over a year ago

Portsmouth

I would favour a separate category for trans people but unfortunately a lot of them think it’s denying them the opportunity to race as their “true” gender. "

Please could you name a case in elite or professional sports where this issue has occoured? I'm very interested in the topic, but haven't been able to find any data to corroborate that this is indeed an issue?

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By *laymateteeMan
over a year ago

bristol

"There are more than just the two genders.

There always were more, the scientific evidence just wasn’t available years ago.

In a similar way science used to say Pluto was a planet. They had to redefine the definition of planet when they realised it want one "

But in sport you compete as either a male or female

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By *konCouple
over a year ago

cardiff

"There are more than just the two genders.

Exactly . People get all woke and shouty thinking you’re anti this or anti that but when I used to kick box, there’s no way you could have lasted 2 minutes against a person who WAS a man two years ago and for 30 years before that, no matter what they are or identify as now . Good luck to them , but why should a hall full of women who’ve worked their butts off for years stand zero chance on the alter of new inclusivity . It’s simply not fair . You’re on about the minority , why should the majority lose out ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Just for the record, for those who don’t know, I’m trans and I lost nearly three inches off my bicep while I’ve been on hormones.

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By *laymateteeMan
over a year ago

bristol

"There are more than just the two genders.

Well said

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By *konCouple
over a year ago

cardiff

I would favour a separate category for trans people but unfortunately a lot of them think it’s denying them the opportunity to race as their “true” gender.

Cece Telfer. Ranked 290th in the men’s division . First place after she transitioned in the women’s division

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"@ dirtylittletramp @ _laymatetee.

1. They were brought up at female yes, but they do have XY chromosome and elevated testosterone level. Similar can be said with Stella Walsh, a Polish athletes in the 60s 70s if i'm not mistaken.

2. The question is unfairness to cis-female. Elevating the testostrone level for male athletes, do not have any effect to the cis-female athletes.

I, personally, think it's unfair to allow both trans-female and "female" with confirmed XY chromosome to compete in females events.

Need a running scale, hormone levels and weight rather than male female, its a new world and old gender stereotypes be gone, if we really want total equality then perhaps that's what we should do.

It's not fair for a 13 st 6ft female vs 8st 5ft female for tennis and various other sports Or 6ft 7 man vs 5ft 5 man tennis.... etc and gymnastics, ever seen anyone over 6ft!

Or make all sport all comers, best person wins.... we have female soldiers so what's the issue?

I'm just saying

Serena has lost to Naomi Osaka more than once and she's talker and looks stronger so when it comes to tennis you height and weight doesn't really give you that much of an advantage

In a survey of 2 lol check the stats for men and women, champagne in tennis getting taller

Halep,Cibulcova,Henin and Billie Jean King just to mention a few a d yet they beat players taller than them"

because height is only one factor and its way more complex than that, you also have speed, agility, strength, skill and technique, hand eye co-ordination (which i have none of haha), training and determination , and in tennis to some extent its mental too

presumably certain hormone levels allow people more or less capacity in some of these areas which is why a cis woman and cis man could be the same height and weight, the same coach and training schedule, same diet, but it is likely the male would be the superior player

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By *laymateteeMan
over a year ago

bristol

"@ dirtylittletramp @ _laymatetee.

1. They were brought up at female yes, but they do have XY chromosome and elevated testosterone level. Similar can be said with Stella Walsh, a Polish athletes in the 60s 70s if i'm not mistaken.

2. The question is unfairness to cis-female. Elevating the testostrone level for male athletes, do not have any effect to the cis-female athletes.

I, personally, think it's unfair to allow both trans-female and "female" with confirmed XY chromosome to compete in females events.

Need a running scale, hormone levels and weight rather than male female, its a new world and old gender stereotypes be gone, if we really want total equality then perhaps that's what we should do.

It's not fair for a 13 st 6ft female vs 8st 5ft female for tennis and various other sports Or 6ft 7 man vs 5ft 5 man tennis.... etc and gymnastics, ever seen anyone over 6ft!

Or make all sport all comers, best person wins.... we have female soldiers so what's the issue?

I'm just saying

Serena has lost to Naomi Osaka more than once and she's talker and looks stronger so when it comes to tennis you height and weight doesn't really give you that much of an advantage

In a survey of 2 lol check the stats for men and women, champagne in tennis getting taller

Halep,Cibulcova,Henin and Billie Jean King just to mention a few a d yet they beat players taller than them

Thank you

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By *mmixtapeCouple
over a year ago

middle earth

From a more scientific point:

When a trans person goes through hormone replacement therapy their body goes through puberty again. They literally change how their body is made up. A transgender female will be more "feminised" when she begins HRT putting her at no advantage to cisgendered competitors who have been training for years to compete.

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

Create a category for trans athletes by all means , but don’t put the able bodied world 500 meter sprint champion in the same competition as the world paralympics wheelchair champion .

It doesn’t happen anywhere else, why should it here ?

whatever ends up in place it seems to me like there is a huge amount of research that needs to happen before anything can be redesigned "

Why not have three categories at the olympics.. male female and trans..

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By *mmixtapeCouple
over a year ago

middle earth

Lmao I say a "more scientific standpoint" but I didn't actually read any of the other replies

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I would favour a separate category for trans people but unfortunately a lot of them think it’s denying them the opportunity to race as their “true” gender.

Few instances in powerlifting if you look, entered into womens having transitioned and set records that were basically untouchable.

No feds I know of allow trans women to compete, same for strongwoman and the like. Especially as some are untested so you can take PEDS, as a trans woman that's a massive advantage

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By *laymateteeMan
over a year ago

bristol

"From a more scientific point:

Does this alter their DNA too?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"From a more scientific point:

There are some studies showing there is still a significant advantage in strength and muscle cross sectional area

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

I am not sure the playing field is level...let's be inclusive but not discriminate against the females who hsve to compete against anyone with an unfair advantage

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Just for the record, for those who don’t know, I’m trans and I lost nearly three inches off my bicep while I’ve been on hormones. "

but how would we ever know that while having 3 inches less than when you were in your male body, is it still more/ less or on par with what you would have had , had you always been in female form

its an impossible thing to prove because no 2 peoples genetics are the same so you can’t be compared to a cis woman and get a definitive answer and we don’t have a time machine to try another way and get a definitive answer , but surely what they should be doing is large scale studies where using high volume of data from trans athletes could then be compared with cis athletes to give a fairly good estimation of what advantages if any remain and for how long through the transition process and then with that dats decisions can be made

it seems like there have been a few studies so far but not enough with consistent results to really prove either way at the moment

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

I think using examples of different sized women/men having advantages or not, we've forgotten that in sports where physical attributes contribute more to the outcome, the majority of competitors have very similar physiques. Think distance running, high jump and to some extent, short distance sprinting. The greatest sprinter of the modern age, Mr Bolt, was a physical anomaly among the much more muscular and compact men. At 6ft 4, he should have been a disaster but he managed to turn his long limbs into the advantage through technique. His starts were almost always woeful because he was simply too tall but he would catch up by 40m and streak away. He'd never have been successful much at the 60m because his start wouldn't have let him. But he's still very much the anomaly. Most male sprinters have similar physiques.

Tennis is much more a game of skill. It's not just about being able to whack the ball around at 100mph plus. Some players with the fastest serves never really made it as players because relying on serving ace after ace isn't really a winning strategy. John Isner and Sam Groth are the male players who hold records for fastest serves but have you even heard of them? It's a game that combines agility with strength, athleticism, hand/eye coordination so physique isn't everything.

Team sports allow more variety in physique too because of the collective effect of the team. That said, how many football players were successful with the physique of Ade Akinfenwa? Very few, because most men of his physique and weight would be too slow and his height is too short to be, on average, a goalkeeper. He's another anomaly in his sport and there's probably a reason he didn't progress into the top flight (one hell of a good defender though!)

So, it depends entirely on the sport. If you can find me any 5ft female high jumpers competing internationally, or any 8 stone female shot putters or any 100kg men running the 10,000m, I'd be very interested to see! Not possessing the typical physique of your chosen sport is perhaps one of the biggest reasons people do not progress to be professional. You don't see many 5ft 6 guys being encouraged to join the basketball team at school, thus they rarely become amateurs and so even less often, pros.

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By *inegarStrokesMan
over a year ago

Uxbridge

I would favour a separate category for trans people but unfortunately a lot of them think it’s denying them the opportunity to race as their “true” gender.

I never said at professional or elite level but with a quick google search you’ll be able to find plenty of young female athletes that have been denied scholarships and the chance to perform in regional competitions due to trans women who haven’t even had to undertake any medication to transition. Simply identifying as female when born male is enough in some states across America.

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By *icentiousCouple
over a year ago

Up on them there hills

Weird, there is a movement for mass equality, yet it appears to be on an individual basis.

Equality can surely only occur outside social paradigm.

Or is there more to be gained by using the paradigm as a weapon against others to dominate?

Just a thought.

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By *angbangFantasy OP Woman
over a year ago

London

Wow

I posted this, then had dinner and proceeded to watch Justice League Zack Snyder's cut (4 hours long).

This thread will be an interesting read.

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By *inky_CarpenterMan
over a year ago

Portsmouth

There is an offensive amount of ignorance based opinion on both sides of this thread. For anyone interested in an actual balanced synopsis of the issue, search "Katy Montgomerie Trans Sports" on YouTube.

She gives an excellent overview of the issue, on a recent episode of the "Trans Atlantic Call in Show" with a nice summery of some of the questions involved and why this issue isn't as simple as people make it out to be.....

Or you can just continue having fun, bickering like children and spreading mistruths, bigotry and and political propaganda..... up to you xx

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" "Just for the record, for those who don’t know, I’m trans and I lost nearly three inches off my bicep while I’ve been on hormones. "

but how would we ever know that while having 3 inches less than when you were in your male body, is it still more/ less or on par with what you would have had , had you always been in female form

it seems like there have been a few studies so far but not enough with consistent results to really prove either way at the moment "

Obviously I can’t definitively say what I would have been physically like but my mother, an ex PE teacher, was built in a very similar way to my current physique. She’s now 82 and plays golf four times a week. She looks 60.

My sister could probably have beaten me in an arm wrestle even before I started hormones.

My muscles were not a result of training, just a physical job.

My testosterone level before I went onto hormones was very low anyway. Not female levels but not much more.

My oestrogen level was the same as a menopausal woman.

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