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"Simple, don't make it a crime to ask questions no matter how easily "common sense" can be applied. I see so many threads shot down in flames because someone asks a question and the next 10 replies all take the piss. Not only does that alienate the person, it might make their aversion stronger because they might think "well what's the fucking point?"." 100% this. You can't expect people to learn, to feel comfortable having their views challenged if they are ridiculed for asking things. I also think staying away from sentences with excessively long words is a good shout - get your point across succinctly without it being covered in flowery language that makes it less accessible. | |||
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"I think there is a huge misunderstanding about submissives. I'm going purely by the messages we've had. I think a lot of people think a submissive is some sort of non entity and it's all about the dominant. That I'm only there for his pleasure and to be used. Also that I'll get sent out to every Tom Dick and Harry that shows any interest. It's staggering the amount of messages we get that are nothing short of disrespectful R " No reason for that whatsoever, the Dom/sub dynamic is definitely very interesting but it's not something I'd ever claim to know about because from what little I do know, there has to be complete trust with each other which you won't have straight away with a stranger. | |||
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"I think there is a huge misunderstanding about submissives. I'm going purely by the messages we've had. I think a lot of people think a submissive is some sort of non entity and it's all about the dominant. That I'm only there for his pleasure and to be used. Also that I'll get sent out to every Tom Dick and Harry that shows any interest. It's staggering the amount of messages we get that are nothing short of disrespectful R No reason for that whatsoever, the Dom/sub dynamic is definitely very interesting but it's not something I'd ever claim to know about because from what little I do know, there has to be complete trust with each other which you won't have straight away with a stranger." I'm fine with strangers if they know the dynamic. I find the people who message who are in a sub/dom relationship or have been are very respectful in how they conduct their messages. People who don't the messages are mostly crude and presumptuous R | |||
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"There has always been a lot of this on the forums in general but I’ve seen a fair amount popping up again. For clarity, phobic attitudes aren’t based in fear, they’re based in aversion, misunderstanding and misrepresentation. Homophobia isn’t a fear of gay people per se, it’s the cover all term for bigotry aimed at them. So, dear fabbers, how far would you go to try and educate, inform or challenge these attitudes? " It is a lost cause imo. Well not totally lost, but lost in some specific occasions. For instance, pointless, utterly pointless to try to make your point of view heard if the person in front of you, invalidate your own existence. Last time at work I was debating with one of my colleagues about the right for Muslim women to wear hijab. His point of view was that the hijab is the submission of women for the men and by the men. So his solution, keep in mind that he is a man, was to force women who wants to wear it to remove it... So basically, he wants to protect women from men (their men, because of course there is a colonialist part in this process), without asking women their point of views and force them.to do this opposite. Kudos Kyle you make a fool of yourself ! I mean from there, if the guy can't even see how ridiculous is point of view is... There is nothing I could do or say that will change it... | |||
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"Some people are not even aware they are.....so why does the OP think he is above any phobics? " Did he say that? | |||
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"Some people are not even aware they are.....so why does the OP think he is above any phobics? " I don’t. Personally I know that I have areas and things that I could learn more about. No one is ever perfect and we all have things that we could do better with but the important thing is to work on them and have an open mind to learning. It’s closed minds and an unwillingness to break a phobic attitude that are the barriers | |||
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"I wouldn't. It's the same old problem we've had since forever. And it never works. Don't try and force opinions/agendas on others. Especially if your idea of free speech is to prevent others from having theirs? Free speech isn't without consequence. The information and the education is out there. Let people search for it and understand it if they must. But the moment you try and force this information on someone, you've aleady lost" I agree. I do engage but it’s the manner of engaging that’s important, discussion as opposed to arguing or berating is a better option | |||
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"I think there is a huge misunderstanding about submissives. I'm going purely by the messages we've had. I think a lot of people think a submissive is some sort of non entity and it's all about the dominant. That I'm only there for his pleasure and to be used. Also that I'll get sent out to every Tom Dick and Harry that shows any interest. It's staggering the amount of messages we get that are nothing short of disrespectful R " I get that. Is a different thing from what I was writing in my OP but it’s still about education and understanding | |||
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"There has always been a lot of this on the forums in general but I’ve seen a fair amount popping up again. For clarity, phobic attitudes aren’t based in fear, they’re based in aversion, misunderstanding and misrepresentation. Homophobia isn’t a fear of gay people per se, it’s the cover all term for bigotry aimed at them. So, dear fabbers, how far would you go to try and educate, inform or challenge these attitudes? It is a lost cause imo. Well not totally lost, but lost in some specific occasions. For instance, pointless, utterly pointless to try to make your point of view heard if the person in front of you, invalidate your own existence. Last time at work I was debating with one of my colleagues about the right for Muslim women to wear hijab. His point of view was that the hijab is the submission of women for the men and by the men. So his solution, keep in mind that he is a man, was to force women who wants to wear it to remove it... So basically, he wants to protect women from men (their men, because of course there is a colonialist part in this process), without asking women their point of views and force them.to do this opposite. Kudos Kyle you make a fool of yourself ! I mean from there, if the guy can't even see how ridiculous is point of view is... There is nothing I could do or say that will change it... " I understand your point. You can only educate those that want to be taught? | |||
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"I don't always challenge in here for reasons that aren't pertinent to your question. I don't usually give advice unless it's asked for. If I think someone needs to think ...... then I ask them questions. They are not without intelligence. They will in time come to new understandings. However, that is not my job here. " No, it’s not anyone’s job! There’s a new fad that I’ve seen on SM recently where a poster will refuse to respond to questions, citing ‘don’t make me do your emotional labour’. I can see the point but I’m conflicted on the sentiment behind it. | |||
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"Some people , particularly older people, but not always, aren’t connected to popular language culture which changes faster than ever in history. So they might not not know the current correct way to describe a back, gay or trans person. Or worse use a term that was ok before but now isn’t. I heard a guy in his 40s on LBC phone in once describe himself as half cast and the host slammed him, telling him he can’t use that term and apologised on his behalf. Was he racist !?" Using incorrect terms can be a signifier but (in my experience) if the person is just using ‘old’ words or incorrect terms but not offensive with them, then that’s rarely a problem. As you said; language is changing all the time and even the most respectful people find it hard to be up to date! | |||
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"There is no one size fits all answer OP. There is a huge difference between someone showing a phobic attitude because of misunderstanding and another person out of sheer aversion... Sometimes an open discussion and some polite education without being condescending works... Sometimes people's hate just needs to be called out for what it is, granted that usually comes with an equal amount of backlash about PC gone mad, snowflakes and SJW shouts. " I think that part of the issue lies in the grey area between education and hate. I think that sometimes people are too fast to shout ‘hate’ before they check understanding | |||
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"Some people are not even aware they are.....so why does the OP think he is above any phobics? Did he say that?" The point im making is some people don't know they are a phobic and they don't need someone claiming the moral high ground | |||
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"Recently I haven’t had much energy to even try (anywhere, not just here). There comes a point when the constant barrage of bigotry becomes too much to deal with, particularly when I’m in a bad place. I do find that often people who claim to be asking “genuine questions” aren’t really, they’ve already made up their mind and are just pushing their own agenda. I’m of the opinion that it’s impossible to educate people who have firmly entrenched phobic views, so I don’t try. Any comments I make are more in the hope that other people reading it, with more open minds, might learn something they didn’t know." I know exactly what you mean. It can be exhausting at times and the first priority is always your own well-being. I’ve also found that I can become jaded and a straightforward question can trigger anger based on an encounter on another platform | |||
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"Some people are not even aware they are.....so why does the OP think he is above any phobics? Did he say that? The point im making is some people don't know they are a phobic and they don't need someone claiming the moral high ground" I think that you’re reading what isn’t there in my OP. Where exactly did I claim the moral high ground? | |||
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"There is no one size fits all answer OP. There is a huge difference between someone showing a phobic attitude because of misunderstanding and another person out of sheer aversion... Sometimes an open discussion and some polite education without being condescending works... Sometimes people's hate just needs to be called out for what it is, granted that usually comes with an equal amount of backlash about PC gone mad, snowflakes and SJW shouts. I think that part of the issue lies in the grey area between education and hate. I think that sometimes people are too fast to shout ‘hate’ before they check understanding" Sometimes perhaps... but I think the more time you spend paying attention to it the differences between the two types wording, attitude and intent is usually pretty clear. Agreed though if there is a doubt the person should at least be given the benefit of the doubt | |||
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"Some people are not even aware they are.....so why does the OP think he is above any phobics? Did he say that? The point im making is some people don't know they are a phobic and they don't need someone claiming the moral high ground I think that you’re reading what isn’t there in my OP. Where exactly did I claim the moral high ground? " Im picking up on the education of people.....too late | |||
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"Some people are not even aware they are.....so why does the OP think he is above any phobics? Did he say that? The point im making is some people don't know they are a phobic and they don't need someone claiming the moral high ground I think that you’re reading what isn’t there in my OP. Where exactly did I claim the moral high ground? Im picking up on the education of people.....too late" If you want to think the worst of me, I’m not going to try to dissuade you of that | |||
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"Some people are not even aware they are.....so why does the OP think he is above any phobics? Did he say that? The point im making is some people don't know they are a phobic and they don't need someone claiming the moral high ground I think that you’re reading what isn’t there in my OP. Where exactly did I claim the moral high ground? Im picking up on the education of people.....too late If you want to think the worst of me, I’m not going to try to dissuade you of that" I have no opinion of you...just an opinion of the thread.... | |||
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"I think it comes down to how you question another’s thoughts, is it constructive so you try to understand their point of view or is it in a tone that belittles or patronises the other person. It can make a big difference to how the conversation flows. " True. I also think that some perceive a patronising tone, when one wasn’t intended, especially in text only conversations. Tone is often imposed by the reader and not the writer, which can be another barrier | |||
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"Recently I haven’t had much energy to even try (anywhere, not just here). There comes a point when the constant barrage of bigotry becomes too much to deal with, particularly when I’m in a bad place. I do find that often people who claim to be asking “genuine questions” aren’t really, they’ve already made up their mind and are just pushing their own agenda. I’m of the opinion that it’s impossible to educate people who have firmly entrenched phobic views, so I don’t try. Any comments I make are more in the hope that other people reading it, with more open minds, might learn something they didn’t know. I know exactly what you mean. It can be exhausting at times and the first priority is always your own well-being. I’ve also found that I can become jaded and a straightforward question can trigger anger based on an encounter on another platform" That’s definitely true, I find if I’ve been subjected to the same “debate” about something too many times, I can be very short-tempered the next time it comes up even if it’s someone completely different. So sometimes it’s best if I just step away. The other thing is sometimes I get subjected to horrendous abuse for trying to put across a different point of view, and sometimes I feel to protect myself from that possibility, I can’t risk commenting. | |||
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"I think it comes down to how you question another’s thoughts, is it constructive so you try to understand their point of view or is it in a tone that belittles or patronises the other person. It can make a big difference to how the conversation flows. True. I also think that some perceive a patronising tone, when one wasn’t intended, especially in text only conversations. Tone is often imposed by the reader and not the writer, which can be another barrier" Totally it is down to how the person might read it and interpret it, for that reason there are some I just don’t engage with as know exactly how it will go. | |||
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"I think it comes down to how you question another’s thoughts, is it constructive so you try to understand their point of view or is it in a tone that belittles or patronises the other person. It can make a big difference to how the conversation flows. True. I also think that some perceive a patronising tone, when one wasn’t intended, especially in text only conversations. Tone is often imposed by the reader and not the writer, which can be another barrier Totally it is down to how the person might read it and interpret it, for that reason there are some I just don’t engage with as know exactly how it will go. " That’s fair | |||
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"Not sure I agree with misunderstanding as being phobic. There's lots I don't know or fully understand or may have un concious bias, which can lead to misunderstanding. But I don't believe that makes me phobic. " I meant in terms of not understanding or ignorance, as opposed to misrepresentation | |||
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"Not sure I agree with misunderstanding as being phobic. There's lots I don't know or fully understand or may have un concious bias, which can lead to misunderstanding. But I don't believe that makes me phobic. " I agree. But part of the problem is people recognising the un conscious bias and accepting information and other possibilities. Some are literally closed books. | |||
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"Not sure I agree with misunderstanding as being phobic. There's lots I don't know or fully understand or may have un concious bias, which can lead to misunderstanding. But I don't believe that makes me phobic. I agree. But part of the problem is people recognising the un conscious bias and accepting information and other possibilities. Some are literally closed books. " Yes that's the difference I'm aware I have un concious biases, but I'm always happy for someone to question my thoughts. I'm open to learning and improving myself | |||
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